View Full Version : Old Quarter Tonners -Magic Bus


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salkbj
03-07-2012, 07:23 AM
There where a "third" dual assy-boarder built (c-flex) in Sweden which weren't completed until the 77 season. Original plan was for the 76 Two Ton Cup in Germany.
She was named "Popeye" with the sailor man displayed on her topsides.
Totally uncontrollable downwind and to late for the loophole.
Based on the "Aggressive II" design, so now there are four.

sean9c
03-07-2012, 04:48 PM
There where a "third" dual assy-boarder built (c-flex) in Sweden which weren't completed until the 77 season. Original plan was for the 76 Two Ton Cup in Germany.
She was named "Popeye" with the sailor man displayed on her topsides.
Totally uncontrollable downwind and to late for the loophole.
Based on the "Aggressive II" design, so now there are four.

Gee, have a little weather helm.

Richard 4073
03-13-2012, 02:49 AM
Hi all,

My book on the NZ level rating 'Ton' yachts of the 1970s is now available (186 pages, 82 photos B&W, 15 drawings including six sets of lines plans) - go to http://lightertonyachts.co.nz (you have to post the link into your address bar as it’s so new that Google etc haven't picked up on it yet).

A copy of the front and back covers are attached, I'll post some sample pages once I get the pre-bound version back from the publisher.

cheers,
Richard

Paul B
03-13-2012, 02:20 PM
Hi all,

My book on the NZ level rating 'Ton' yachts of the 1970s is now available
cheers,
Richard

Great. My order is in.

Last week Johnny Ramone's autobiography dropped. This week your book. Hopefully next week we'll see CT249's book, or maybe Gary's book on Jim Young.

Gary Baigent
03-15-2012, 01:32 AM
Found this shot of Laurie Davidson's brilliant Half Ton Waverider in Dave Giddens' sail loft. Images of Waverider are quite rare (people doing books on the period are always trying to hunt them down) - so I took a shot of this faded print - and played around with Photoshop to bring it up a bit.
Tony Bouzaid and Helmer Pedersen are prominent in the line up of kiwi talent up to windward there.

CRM
03-15-2012, 02:53 AM
A Belgium home port these days. I'm surprised how small WR looks !!

Gary Baigent
03-15-2012, 04:45 AM
Well, Waverider was/is very low wooded plus also being narrower than any of the other Half Tonners of the time.
That looks like Kim McDell near the stern, in fact I'm sure it is him. Does anyone know who the rest were?
Here's another (setup) photograph from that period: younger Kiwi designers Ron Holland, Laurie Davidson, Bruce Farr and Paul Whiting.

salkbj
03-15-2012, 05:00 AM
Found this shot of Laurie Davidson's brilliant Half Ton Waverider in Dave Giddens' sail loft. Images of Waverider are quite rare (people doing books on the period are always trying to hunt them down) - so I took a shot of this faded print - and played around with Photoshop to bring it up a bit.
Tony Bouzaid and Helmer Pedersen are prominent in the line up of kiwi talent up to windward there.

Here is the same photo in color. Photographer: Guy Gurney
Jonathan Eastland should also have a number of good photos from the HTC78. I only have b/w versions.

CRM
03-15-2012, 05:38 AM
I did a 'you tube' screen capture of a recent Solent 1/2 ton competition video. Santa Evita, and many other great old IOR boats were at hand and wish these present day technologies were available back in the day. Yet,now is also OK.

CT 249
03-15-2012, 06:59 AM
Hopefully next week we'll see CT249's book, or maybe Gary's book on Jim Young.

Mine's basically done and has been for eons, but as a former magazine editor I was horrified by what book publishers wanted in comparison with what they gave! The other issue is that publishing is in such a whirl these days. The old ways of promotion are gone and I'm not confident in getting the same sort of exposure elsewhere.... I want to self-publish and I don't want to risk losing money that should be going on responsible and mature necessities such as wine, a beach house, racing boats, racing boards and racing bikes.

I'm now enrolled in a part-time PhD in a sports business faculty, using the research for the book for an analysis of the impact of technology on participation levels.

The book will be waiting for a while longer. Our oldest got head-hunted by Google after he finished comp sci so I've got him keeping an ear out for the best time, place and method of publishing these days.

If a history book can't wait, then it mustn't be very good history!:p


PS -I have just got my old Half back racing; just beercan stuff, but for first time out under the short-overlap rig with a dirty bottom and the teens doing all the work she went OK. We finished between an Archambault Surprise and a JS8000 but were too conservative and untuned and got beaten by a good Dragon ( :-( )and the former JOG (=MORC) national champ, a well-sailed 26 footer.

That lead to a chat over beers with a couple of other guys who are interested in reviving small-boat rated racing in Sydney. There's enough halves around here for a fleet or two, but quarters are a bit light on. Maybe we'll get something going next year. Local halves include a '76 Farr and some '76 Whitings, '89 carbon Humphries, '81 Dubois, '77 Beasho, a bunch of production Dida-type Petersons and dozens of older boats.

Paul B
03-15-2012, 12:20 PM
I want to self-publish and I don't want to risk losing money .

I'm sure you could chat with Richard about how he went about it. I know it was expensive for Bill Barton to produce the IMP book. There are companies like Createspace online that could be a solution. I have purchased a book or two published there that can now be purchased through Amazon.


There's enough halves around here for a fleet or two, but quarters are a bit light on. Maybe we'll get something going next year. Local halves include a '76 Farr and some '76 Whitings, '89 carbon Humphries, '81 Dubois, '77 Beasho, a bunch of production Dida-type Petersons and dozens of older boats.

Sounds like quite a spread, speed-wise. I guess you'll race handicap?

Paul B
03-15-2012, 04:26 PM
Great. My order is in.



Just to let people know, the day after my order was submitted I was notified by PayPal that the book was shipped out via NZ Post. Next day shipment after receipt of order is better than I expected. Looking forward to the delivery.

Richard 4073
03-18-2012, 03:50 PM
Just catching up on this thread after a busy few days chasing Volvo boats around the harbour. What a great spectacle it's been. Good to hear the postal system is working speedily Paul, hopefully makes up a little for the time spent actually getting the book finished! And fantastic shot of Waverider above, photos of her do indeed seem to be rare. There is also a nice one here from an obituary on Tony Bouzaid:

http://www.sail-world.com/NZ/Tony-Bouzaid:-Images-from-a-rich-Sailing-Life/89850

quartermaster
03-20-2012, 03:46 PM
Sean 9,
To start off, the boat weighs around 3,400 lb.Originally she weighed 2,900 lb.I have a bulb keel that weighs 1,450 lb.approx. five feet below the boat. Carl Schumacker reckoned that this generated about 25% more righting moment than the original 1,300 lb.of lead in the bilge. So I added the Melges rig, moved the forestay to the bow of the boat and the mast back a few inches. I also carry a 10 ft. penalty pole for the spinnaker. This increased the sail area by about 20%. Downwind it's more like 40%. I do have a Genoa. I am currently having Dave Hodges, of Santa Cruz sails make a true no.1 , as during midwinters two years ago, I found I lacked horsepower in really light air. I use the tuning guide for the Melges as a starting point for my rig tune, as they state, it is better to keep mainsail tension on, and travel down in the gusts to relieve weather helm. This works up to around 18 knots of breeze, then I either need to slack the sheet, or as you say foot off. This is mostly due to the limitations of the rudder. To give you an example of how she goes down wind, I have hit a high of 9.3 knots on a Broad reach, with a reefed main and a no. 5 jib. Granted, we were surfing and the wind was in the low 30's, but I think with the right crew we could hit teens with the spinnaker in the right conditions. The boat refuses to plane. I think it could if it had a really big A sym. sail, but it would be a lot of expense for very little usefulness. I have considered runners, and haven't ruled them out to solve the pointing problem. Dave has promised to go out with us and analyze the rig and settings. I'll let you know how it goes. I was given the 156 , and 117 rating before the boat was ever raced. I'm doing the Friday nights at Encinal, and if we struggle, I plan to take it up with the committee, but I don't like to quibble.
Quartermaster

CRM
03-20-2012, 04:22 PM
117 rating sound like the typical punitive nature of there mind set. The Davidson 29 I'm involved with was punished with a 117 rating. The previous rating was 129, that may have speed up to 120 to match locale J-29 MH boats even though there 1000lbs. lighter. Oh well. :(

sean9c
03-20-2012, 04:29 PM
Sean 9,
To start off, the boat weighs around 3,400 lb.Originally she weighed 2,900 lb.I have a bulb keel that weighs 1,450 lb.approx. five feet below the boat. Carl Schumacker reckoned that this generated about 25% more righting moment than the original 1,300 lb.of lead in the bilge. So I added the Melges rig, moved the forestay to the bow of the boat and the mast back a few inches. I also carry a 10 ft. penalty pole for the spinnaker. This increased the sail area by about 20%. Downwind it's more like 40%. I do have a Genoa. I am currently having Dave Hodges, of Santa Cruz sails make a true no.1 , as during midwinters two years ago, I found I lacked horsepower in really light air. I use the tuning guide for the Melges as a starting point for my rig tune, as they state, it is better to keep mainsail tension on, and travel down in the gusts to relieve weather helm. This works up to around 18 knots of breeze, then I either need to slack the sheet, or as you say foot off. This is mostly due to the limitations of the rudder. To give you an example of how she goes down wind, I have hit a high of 9.3 knots on a Broad reach, with a reefed main and a no. 5 jib. Granted, we were surfing and the wind was in the low 30's, but I think with the right crew we could hit teens with the spinnaker in the right conditions. The boat refuses to plane. I think it could if it had a really big A sym. sail, but it would be a lot of expense for very little usefulness. I have considered runners, and haven't ruled them out to solve the pointing problem. Dave has promised to go out with us and analyze the rig and settings. I'll let you know how it goes. I was given the 156 , and 117 rating before the boat was ever raced. I'm doing the Friday nights at Encinal, and if we struggle, I plan to take it up with the committee, but I don't like to quibble.
Quartermaster

Too much ballast too low and too much sail area. Laurie designed that hull for the high CG of the internal ballast and the rig size he originally had on the boat. Chances are by basically putting bigger everything on the boat you've just over powered that little hull. Any chance you kept the old stuff? Going back to that configuration would likely make a nicer sailing boat.

quartermaster
03-20-2012, 07:50 PM
CRM,
Ours is not to question why, ours is but to do or die... I ran into Jim Antrim after the Great Pumpkin, and I pigeon holed him on my rating, as he crabbed sideways, he muttered something about the rating should neither win us races or lose us races, but be a neutral ground. I think they compared the boat to similar modern designs and extrapolated a best guess from there. The 117 downwind, is a bit much though. I don't know where they got that!
Quartermaster

quartermaster
03-20-2012, 08:05 PM
I didn't keep much of the old stuff. The boat was badly damaged from all the repeated wipe outs from the downwind legs. The mast was broken in three places , the deck at the partners had a patch three foot square, the cockpit was broken and plywood plates were screwed on until it was three inches thick in some places. The decks were rotted and broken in numerous places. The bricks had come lose at some point and had wreaked the interior . I don't think the boat was as stable or as easy to sail as you think. Now that the boat has the present configuration, I haven't had any of the damage issues that it had before, and yes, I have broached, a massive four time broach in the Delta Ditch, and she came back up, no worse for wear. I think really the only issues I have are in high winds on the Bay in Summer, and if I take the time to reef, even the little rudder is not a problem. I push the boat pretty hard, and I guess I expect a lot from it. Your right, it is a little boat. It looks big, but actually it is quite small.

CRM
03-20-2012, 08:14 PM
You're right, I love and can so picture that familiar crab walking sideways. The illusion or hope of being a neutral arbiter has been the father of many magazine articles. In the long run the whole Cabal just puts people off racing, The Darwinian factor.

Paul B
04-03-2012, 07:58 PM
Good to hear the postal system is working speedily Paul,

Book arrived today. I have to hold back from cracking it open, as I'll need it in a few weeks while confined in a tin can flying for 12+ hours.

One suggestion: Upgrade the packing for overseas shipments. The corners are not well defended against the rigors of postal employees.

Paul B
04-20-2012, 12:39 PM
I have finished the book and it was a good read.

I did run across a number of factual errors that you might want to address in any reprints.

Examples:

Page 3: the formula you mention is not simply (the square root of waterline length). This is repeated a couple of times throughout the book.

Page 30: North Star was not a Chance design. It was a Peterson.

Page 54: Sweet Okole did not win the 1977 SORC. Imp was the top scoring boat.

There were a number of others I noticed but I did not make notes on all.

salkbj
04-20-2012, 01:01 PM
Page 30: North Star was not a Chance design. It was a Peterson.
Page 54: Sweet Okole did not win the 1977 SORC. Imp was the top scoring boat.


-North Star II, a 3/4 tonner from 1977 was designed by Chance Jr.

-Sweet Okole did top class C.

Paul B
04-20-2012, 01:10 PM
-North Star II, a 3/4 tonner from 1977 was designed by Chance Jr.

You are correct. However, the book is specifically discussing the 1974 Half Ton Cup winner. That boat was not a Britt Chance design.


-Sweet Okole did top class C.

Correct Again. However, the book states, "Sweet Okole was the winner of the 1977 SORC in Florida..." That seems to indicate the overall winner.

Richard 4073
04-20-2012, 11:33 PM
Thanks Paul for those comments, yes, I will have the book amended to note that Sweet Okele was the winner of Class C of the 1977 SORC, and Peterson as the designer of North Star. The square root of waterline was a phrase used to distinguish the theoretical performance of a displacement boat against those that can plane - there is a constant that can be used as a multiplier (but I think this is a variable figure?).
I appreciate the feedback which will ensure that it is an accurate historical record, and I'm glad that you found it a good read. I was fortunate to have half an hour on the national sports radio here in NZ with Peter Montgomery a couple of weeks ago to talk about the book and the era in general.
cheers
Richard

Paul B
04-21-2012, 12:06 AM
Thanks Paul for those comments, yes, I will have the book amended to note that Sweet Okele was the winner of Class C of the 1977 SORC, and Peterson as the designer of North Star. The square root of waterline was a phrase used to distinguish the theoretical performance of a displacement boat against those that can plane - there is a constant that can be used as a multiplier (but I think this is a variable figure?).
I appreciate the feedback which will ensure that it is an accurate historical record, and I'm glad that you found it a good read. I was fortunate to have half an hour on the national sports radio here in NZ with Peter Montgomery a couple of weeks ago to talk about the book and the era in general.
cheers
Richard

I should have made better notes about the other factual problems I found in the book.

The constant you are looking for is 1.34*the square root of the WL. This is the "theoretical hull speed".

I did enjoy the read and owe you a thank you for putting forth the effort. Hopefully you'll be rewarded by at least breaking even on your costs.

SloopJohnB
05-08-2012, 04:51 AM
Richard

Received my copy of your book last Friday, too busy to start to read but a quick flick thru started for bring back the old memories of the IOR scene, measuring and assisting Paul with the ratings.

Richard 4073
05-10-2012, 04:00 AM
Hi JohnB, good to hear your copy arrived, hope you enjoy reading it. It would be great to hear some of your personal recollections of working with Paul W sometime.

Thanks too for your comments PaulB - break even is certainly a long way off, but it has been a very satisfying project pulling the material together.

Paul B
05-10-2012, 06:22 PM
I ran across an interesting article in the June 1983 issue of SAIL magazine. It addresses the measurement of the stern on IOR yachts. I'm sure 99% of the people who read SAIL at the time simply flipped the pages. I'm posting a few of the diagrams attached to the article here for information.

What it shows is the genius the great designers had to have. Remember, these were the days before the personal computer. All calculations were done by hand or by using a pocket calculator.

So not only did the designers have to draw a fair linesplan, they had to do so and have the resulting boat float within <1/4" of the drawing. The shape not only had to be fair, it had to fit the multiple measurement points at no more than 1/8" deviation.

After all this the design had to be faster than last year's designs.

Simply remarkable.

Richard 4073
05-13-2012, 10:19 PM
Those are great, thanks for posting Paul. The maths involved was indeed complex, and if it wasn't hard enough on the drawing board it then all had to be physically measured from the finished boat!

Paul B
05-14-2012, 03:02 PM
then all had to be physically measured from the finished boat!

That was probably as difficult as designing the thing.

A small mistake by the measurer could result in a rating far higher (or lower) than the boat was designed for. When we got our first computer to run the rule we got a Compaq Portable. It was the size of a small suitcase, with a tiny monochromatic screen.

We could take this box dockside while the measurer did the in-the-water freeboard measurements. With a crude little LOTUS 123 spreadsheet we could plot the freeboards and spot any small discrepancies in the measurer's work.

Richard 4073
05-15-2012, 04:55 AM
Sounds like you were right involved in the measurement intricacies there Paul. The measurement process must have been pretty time consuming (I imagine it would be much easier now with the right app on one's iPad!) One of the big/critical factors was also the inclining measurements, and I think that evolved a fair bit over time, do you have any particular recollections on that front?

Paul B
05-15-2012, 03:17 PM
One of the big/critical factors was also the inclining measurements, and I think that evolved a fair bit over time, do you have any particular recollections on that front?

Inclining was done by lashing the spinnaker pole athwartships with a specific length sticking out one side. Water containers of a certain weight (depending on the boat) would be hung from the end of the pole. The angle of the heel was being measured while the weights were added.

Then the boat was turned around and the process was repeated on the other side.

This was usually done very early in the morning. There could be no wind at all or the force of the wind on the rig could influence the data to a significant degree.

The owner's reps would set the boat up and do everything legal (and sometimes not-so-legal) to get the boat to measure at or below the minimum CGF. These tricks included raking the rig as far forward as they could get away with, soaking the halyard tails (more weight aloft), etc.

RCundiff
06-16-2012, 11:32 AM
Paul B. Checking in .... Haven't been here in a while. I still have the Old Cal 24 C/B that I paid $500 for with trailer and 8 Hp Yamaha. It has ended up costing waaaay more than that. How does it rate in IOR ? "RCundiff@aol.com"

Paul B
06-18-2012, 07:56 PM
Paul B. Checking in .... Haven't been here in a while. I still have the Old Cal 24 C/B that I paid $500 for with trailer and 8 Hp Yamaha. It has ended up costing waaaay more than that. How does it rate in IOR ? "RCundiff@aol.com"

With your Old Age Allowance you probably rate something Negative by now.

I understand about the $500.00 boat actual cost. Mine was initially $900.00 on the trailer. The final cost ended up more than 20x that.

I'll send you an e-mail later.

canuckle
06-20-2012, 06:29 PM
Hi all, if you are intrested in the quarter tonner great white, it is for sale.
sitting victoria BC
please post an altermnate method of contact with your post.

canuckle
06-20-2012, 06:33 PM
if you are intrested in Great white she is for sale.
sitting victoria BC. Can.

Paul B
06-20-2012, 06:37 PM
Hi all, if you are intrested in the quarter tonner great white, it is for sale.
sitting victoria BC
please post an altermnate method of contact with your post.

If it is this boat it was not a QT. It was a Mini Tonner.

canuckle
06-20-2012, 06:41 PM
Sorry this is a friends boat, I do not have those specifics. looks like a great project boat. all the bits and pces are there.

canuckle
06-20-2012, 06:43 PM
Sean9c expressed intrest in the boat in an earlier post

Paul B
06-20-2012, 06:47 PM
Sorry this is a friends boat, I do not have those specifics. looks like a great project boat. all the bits and pces are there.

Does Ian still own it?

canuckle
06-20-2012, 06:49 PM
yes he does!
so you are obviuosly aware of the boat.

Paul B
06-20-2012, 06:56 PM
yes he does!
so you are obviuosly aware of the boat.

The picture I just posted was sent to me by Ian a couple of years ago.

This boat was 2nd in the 1980 Mini Ton NAs with a string of 2nd places in every race. Mr. Bills Dog (the Bruce Kelley World Champion) took straight bullets.

Great White was originally a daggerboard boat, but now has a keel. The original rig was pretty much a Soling rig with Genoas. Last time I saw it it still had that rig (at the OCC auction, just before Ian bought it).

Very cool old thing, for those of us who liked that era.

You should tell Ian to advertise it on the Mini Ton Class website (UK based). Someone there might love to get it and restore it.

canuckle
06-20-2012, 07:04 PM
thanks for the info. I will let Ian know.

Richard 4073
06-24-2012, 05:16 PM
Looks like Time Out (is this the same as Great White?) comes complete with a nice glassed in bump just ahead of the rudder! What design is she? - looks like a Farr-style transom.
Mini-tonners never seemed to catch on in NZ, would have been an even cheaper way to experiment than the quarter tonners. I guess the measurement costs would have been similar to bigger boats which may not have helped.

sean9c
06-24-2012, 05:57 PM
Isn't Time Out the old Great White? Didn't Stan Teel build GW for Mike Braney? We might have talked about this before. As I see it the only reason to own a QT or MT would be if you lived in the UK and could be part of the revival. Just as a boat to sail around there are much better choices.
I'm guessing PHRF for a MT has to be the 200's, a Cal 25 would be faster or maybe Roy's Cal 24.
Plus the cost of rehabing a boat is so high. If TO were free it'd still be expensive.
Interesting deal, Mike Braney was Dick Hampikian's partner in Lizzie B the Mark Lindsey built GS 27, Dick is still racing LB and doing well after all these years, that's durability

Paul B
06-25-2012, 12:12 PM
Looks like Time Out (is this the same as Great White?) comes complete with a nice glassed in bump just ahead of the rudder! What design is she? - looks like a Farr-style transom.


Time Out is Great White, re-named. It is a Peterson, not a Farr.

Just in front of the rudder you can see where the skeg has been removed. I guess at some point someone decided to "PHRF-ize" it by removing the extra wetted area of the skeg.

The "bump" you see at the AIGS looks like it is being accentuated by the hull being distorted from too many years on the trailer. The aft end of the bunk seems to be pushing the hull in (look at the woop in the waterline stripe back there). This can be fixed with the addition of a small frame in that area after you pop the hull back into shape.

Paul B
06-25-2012, 12:18 PM
Isn't Time Out the old Great White? Didn't Stan Teel build GW for Mike Braney? We might have talked about this before.

Yeah, if you go back through this thread we have talked about this at least once before.

Production Mini Tonners rated around 222 in PHRF SoCal, same as the Cal 25. These included the Ranger 22, the Santana 20, Lindenberg 22, etc. The custom boats were faster. I imagine in daggerboard trim the Great White would have been 216, 213ish? This was a big Mini, 23 feet long.

The old MORC boats like Lizzie were much nicer sailing boats than IOR boats, so it makes sense for them to still be going strong.

Mkf
08-04-2012, 08:05 PM
Afternoon, does anyone know where Magic Bus currently is?

And what shape?

Many thanks

Richard 4073
08-05-2012, 10:53 PM
Well this is a thread that has come full circle!
Mkf, there was some comment in 2010 (see http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/whiting-1-4-tonner-33584.html) on the whereabouts of Magic Bus, somewhere called Alameda, but might be out of date now. If you find it please post some photos here!

Paul B
08-05-2012, 11:15 PM
Well this is a thread that has come full circle!
Mkf, there was some comment in 2010 (see http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/whiting-1-4-tonner-33584.html) on the whereabouts of Magic Bus, somewhere called Alameda, but might be out of date now. If you find it please post some photos here!

Alameda is in SF Bay. Last I heard the Bus was still there and was being restored. That was sometime last year.

dan catalyst
08-06-2012, 10:07 PM
I now own the Meyers mini-ton 'Great White', and a letter from Paul Lindenberg which states that this boat was the proto for the L22 and he bought it from or sold it to the Meyers in '77. i have a survey from 1985 where my hin# is still called 'Great White', then renamed 'excaliber' and like 4 other names but not to worry,she is having a return to original name ceremony next Thursday at the YC.
p.s. I dont think there are any pics with her original name,but if anyone remembers colors or anything at all, please share! thanks

dan catalyst
08-07-2012, 02:29 AM
newspaper coverage of the '78 north american mini-ton nats, mentioning a Whitey Meyers proto L22 'Great White' so there were perhaps two mini-tonners with the same name, same timeframe,lol. the meyers has always been a dagger board boat.
\http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=950&dat=19780520&id=OFlQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=i1gDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2698,1194301

salkbj
08-07-2012, 03:11 AM
newspaper coverage of the '78 north american mini-ton nats, mentioning a Whitey Meyers proto L22 'Great White' so there were perhaps two mini-tonners with the same name, same timeframe,lol. the meyers has always been a dagger board boat.
\http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=950&dat=19780520&id=OFlQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=i1gDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2698,1194301

1 USA ?????, 3, 1, 2, 1, “Heatwave”, Kirby-??,Mystic 22 Bruce Kirby/
2 USA ?????, 4, 4, 1, 6, “Fire Ant”, Lindenburg -??,Lindenburg 22 cb Tom Horne/
3 USA ?????, 1, 2, 5, 3, “Sweet Thing”, Irwin-??, Mike Robertson/
4 USA ?????, 2, 5, 4, 2, “Closer to the Edge”, Rodgers-??, O H Rodgers/
5 USA ?????, 5, 3, 3, 5, ”Magic Hammer”, Lindenburg -??,Lindenburg 22 cb Paul Lindenburg/
? USA ?????, ?, ?, ?, ?, ”Great White”, Lindenburg -??, cb Whitey Meyers/
Source: magazine Yachting ?/78 (don't remember which issue)

Paul B
08-07-2012, 02:50 PM
1 USA ?????, 3, 1, 2, 1, “Heatwave”, Kirby-??,Mystic 22 Bruce Kirby/
2 USA ?????, 4, 4, 1, 6, “Fire Ant”, Lindenburg -??,Lindenburg 22 cb Tom Horne/
3 USA ?????, 1, 2, 5, 3, “Sweet Thing”, Irwin-??, Mike Robertson/
4 USA ?????, 2, 5, 4, 2, “Closer to the Edge”, Rodgers-??, O H Rodgers/
5 USA ?????, 5, 3, 3, 5, ”Magic Hammer”, Lindenburg -??,Lindenburg 22 cb Paul Lindenburg/
? USA ?????, ?, ?, ?, ?, ”Great White”, Lindenburg -??, cb Whitey Meyers/
Source: magazine Yachting ?/78 (don't remember which issue)

The Mystic Mini Ton looked a lot like the Irwin boat (brochure attached). I don't think they sold many of either, probably less than 10. In those days they were not only good for IOR Mini Ton racing, but those types were also quite competitive under MORC. Then the MORC rule changed around '79.

The L22 was not a Paul Lindenberg design. It was a Bruce Kelley design, built by Lindenberg.

All the boats listed (except OH's boat that I don't recall) were CBers.

The next year Kelley produced the custom Mr. Bill's Dog. That pretty much made all the boats listed obsolete in the IOR Mini Ton Class.

dan catalyst
08-07-2012, 10:44 PM
sailboat data credits them both with the L22 design ,but you know what they say about what you read on the internet.....

Paul B
08-07-2012, 11:35 PM
sailboat data credits them both with the L22 design ,but you know what they say about what you read on the internet.....

Saildata has a lot of misinformation on it. I've told the owner about quite a few major mistakes. There are many more, but I don't want to be his editor.

The brochure and advertisments for the L22 indicate what was reported pretty much universally back in the late 70s: The design was by Kelley. I don't think I have ever heard anything about Lindenberg trying to take any credit.

Similarly, the Lindenberg 26 of the same era was designed by Lee Creekmore and built by Lindenberg.

dan catalyst
08-08-2012, 04:42 PM
Yup, good stuff,good stuff. Hey, is that other boat 'time out' still for sale? ill buy em all up and start my own regattas if i have to,lol.
The last i can see 'mr.bill's dog' was in england in 1980. i wonder if she was ever shipped back? we should get those guys on the mini tonner site in england searching hard for her over there. $10k reward for her, dead or alive.more if she floats.

Just also dug up that my 'great white' sailed w/ bulb keel at one time and was rated @ 198p, but went back to fin keel and 201 the next weekend. ill be lucky to sail her at the national average, 207.
Thanks for the info salkj!! now go dig something up where she won,lol. i think she got struck by lightning in that one and was pulled early if it was the tampa race.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=950&dat=19780520&id=OFlQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=i1gDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2698,1194301
oops, already posted that link.

dahrens
08-10-2012, 04:37 PM
Alameda is in SF Bay. Last I heard the Bus was still there and was being restored. That was sometime last year.

Magic Bus is still on the hard in Alameda, CA. I see her almost every weekend when I go to the chandlery. She's on a trailer and has a full boat cover so hard to tell what shape she's in these days. As far as I know the boat was last campaigned almost 10 years ago. I sailed a couple of Friday night races on her then.

salkbj
08-10-2012, 05:08 PM
...The last i can see 'mr.bill's dog' was in england in 1980...

I have no record of "Mr. Bill's Dog" in Europe after the 1980 MTC. However, there where two follow-up boats built:

The first (1981), "100%"/"Junk Food", built in Sweden, later sold to Norway, entered the 1984 MTC, placing 20/27, probably also participating in MTC-82 (Marstrand,Sweden) but I have not the complete results list.

The second (1982), "Hummer"/"Høne Pøne"/"Spurven", built in Norway, took part in MTC-82, 20/45, MTC85, no record, MTC-86, 28/31 as well as the last MTC in 1993, 15/16. She was for sale in Norway 2011 at NOK30k.

dan catalyst
08-12-2012, 07:11 PM
hey salkbj,i found that race coverage of the mini ton midwinters/nationals held may 78,(file says 1980?) where kirby won in the mystic mini ton 'heat wave', my boat 'great white' got 9th. ill post it up as an attachment.

Paul B
08-13-2012, 03:03 PM
hey salkbj,i found that race coverage of the mini ton midwinters/nationals held may 78,(file says 1980?) where kirby won in the mystic mini ton 'heat wave', my boat 'great white' got 9th. ill post it up as an attachment.

That's pretty cool. Where did you find that? Do you have the same sort of clippings or results from the '79 and '80 NAs?

Paul B
08-13-2012, 03:09 PM
I have no record of "Mr. Bill's Dog" in Europe after the 1980 MTC. However, there where two follow-up boats built:

The first (1981), "100%"/"Junk Food", built in Sweden, later sold to Norway, entered the 1984 MTC, placing 20/27, probably also participating in MTC-82 (Marstrand,Sweden) but I have not the complete results list.

The second (1982), "Hummer"/"Høne Pøne"/"Spurven", built in Norway, took part in MTC-82, 20/45, MTC85, no record, MTC-86, 28/31 as well as the last MTC in 1993, 15/16. She was for sale in Norway 2011 at NOK30k.

Looks like you have a good listing of Mini Ton results. I have been trying to put together a comprehensive list of all the Ton Cup winners. I have most of the QT, HT, 3/4T, 1T, and 2T results. I should add the Mini Tonners as well.

If you can provide any results in the following format I can add to the database:

Year, Designer, Boat Name, Regatta Location, Crew, Comments (such as X boat was fastest, but broke their rig in last race so didn't win, etc).

Thank you.

dan catalyst
08-13-2012, 08:03 PM
no, thats all i have right now.ill ask the person who posted it on the lindenberg 22 yahoo group if they have any of the others. i know that 'great white' was sailed with a all female crew in 78', that Whitey Meyers must have been quite the ladies man.im proud to continue the legacy of 'great white's giggalo skippers,lol.

Paul B
08-13-2012, 08:26 PM
no, thats all i have right now.ill ask the person who posted it on the lindenberg 22 yahoo group if they have any of the others. i know that 'great white' was sailed with a all female crew in 78', that Whitey Meyers must have been quite the ladies man.im proud to continue the legacy of 'great white's giggalo skippers,lol.

Thanks for looking.

That article kind of confused me, but now I think I get it. The article is not about the MT NAs, but about the "first" MT regatta in the USA in 1978.

I was confused because the info I have shows an L22 called Sauerkraut winning the NAs in Dallas in 1978 (not the Kirby Heatwave). I thought the article was about the NAs. A second reading clarified things.

The owner of Sauerkraut had Kelley design Mr. Bills Dog. He won the NAs in '79 in Marina del Rey, the '80 NAs in Annapolis, and the '80 Worlds in Scotland.

As far as I know, the '78 NAs were the first and I don't know if there were any held after '80. Only 5 boats showed up for the "80 championship.

Richard 4073
08-13-2012, 11:54 PM
Hi Paul, if you have any gaps in your database for the 1970s let me know, I have got a few regatta results sheets on hand from my book research.

You probably already have this link - http://www.scribd.com/doc/36312151/null, but just in case....

The Mini tonners would have been a fun class, they never really took off here in NZ, though there were a couple of attempts at production trailer sailer versions (one of which is a truly awful design).

Paul B
08-14-2012, 12:28 AM
Hi Paul, if you have any gaps in your database for the 1970s let me know, I have got a few regatta results sheets on hand from my book research.

You probably already have this link - http://www.scribd.com/doc/36312151/null, but just in case....

The Mini tonners would have been a fun class, they never really took off here in NZ, though there were a couple of attempts at production trailer sailer versions (one of which is a truly awful design).

I didn't have that link, but I have something better. That is my spreadsheet someone has posted. Of course it is not as up to date as mine currently is. I have another one for the NAs that isn't as complete.

If you have regatta results sheets please post them. It would be interesting to see.

Mini Tonners didn't really take off here in SoCal either. We had the NAs in MdR in '80, but that might have been the only mini ton regatta here ever.

I did sail on a Ranger 22 a few times (Mull pintail Mini Ton), and worked for the dealer for the Santana 20s. I don't think the 20s could measure in as mini tonners without doing some work.

salkbj
08-14-2012, 05:57 AM
...Looks like you have a good listing of Mini Ton results...

Kelly got the chance to design a 1/2-tonner in 1981, "Don Quixote IV", run by the Bagnell brothers under Greek flag. She won the UK HT nationals but didn't meet expectations in the HTC-81 or HTC-82. To my knowledge(memory), she was the first honeycomb tonner!?
1982 "Ella-M" was designed, slightly lighter, in an attempt to overcome Don Q:s weakness in heavy weather.

All my European sources refer to Bruce Kelly, not Kelley?

Mini Ton Cup listing as requested:
1976, Phélipon, L’Effraie, La Rochelle(FRA), Patrick Phélipon/, "mini ton cup" cat-rigged all bullets!
1976, van de Stadt, Oceaan 2, Lymington(GBR),Cees van Tongeren/, "1/8 ton cup" 9th in MTC-76
1977, Berret, Jaunac, La Rochelle(FRA), Eric Ancelle/A Lathioor/M Margoux
1978, F/M/N, Wahoo, Cala Galera(ITA), Hubert Raudaschl/Nevuscheller/Prokes, first ORC-sanctioned Mini Ton Cup
1979, F/M/N, Wahoo, Estartit(ESP), Titziano Nava/Claudio Maletto/Musetti
1980, Kelly, Mr. Bill’s Dog, Edinborough(GBR), Mike Braney/
1981, F/M/N, Gullisara, Langen Hagen-Bodensee(GER), Titziano Nava/
1982, F/M/N, Gullisara, Marstrand(SWE), Titziano Nava/Carlo Parodi/Stefano Parodi
1983, Nissen, Kninispri, Saint Raphaël(FRA),
1984, F/M/N, Ligulè, Korfu(GRE), Fabrizio Baudo/
1985, F/M/N, Creola, Hankø(NOR), Marco Pomi/Erminio Bianchi Bazzi/Paolo Brasca
1986, Amble, Witchie, Gargnano-Lago di Garda(ITA), Christen With/Erik Otterstad/Audun Goksøyr
1987, F/M/N, Mannaggia, Medemblik(NED), Titziano Nava/Rolf Schlaefer/Giovanni Cugini
1988, Amble, For Sale, Varberg(SWE), Knut Berg-Jacobsen/Espen Guttormsen/Olaf Lofstad
1989, F/M/N, Ligulè Hi-Tech, Cascais(POR), Flavio Favini/Fabrizio Baudo/, first(86) all-out carb/nomex MT
1990, F/M/N, G.G.G., Åsgårdsstrand(NOR), Enrico Passoni/Alessandro Gaoso/Pierpaolo Bonetti/Alessandra Gaoso, the ultimate carb/nomex/titanium MT
1991, Thessaloniki(GRE), no races
1992, F/M/N, G.G.G., Chioggia(ITA), Giovanni Cassinari/Alessandro Gaoso/Stefano Garré/Alessandra Gaoso

F/M/N=Fontana/Maletto/Navone
1976-77 there was a debate between GBR/FRA on whether to apply further constraints to the IOR-rule. Mainly width and CGF.
From 1978 a limit on Bmax of 2500mm was imposed (European trailer width limit).

Mini-tonners became mostly an Italian affair with another stronghold in Norway and odd boats from other countries.

Paul B
08-14-2012, 03:27 PM
Kelly got the chance to design a 1/2-tonner in 1981, "Don Quixote IV", run by the Bagnell brothers under Greek flag. Made a splash in the UK but didn't perform in the HTC-81 or HTC-82. To my knowledge(memory), she was the first honeycomb tonner!?

I believe you are correct. The construction detail was written up in a major magazine here in the USA. I also recall it wasn't very fast.

He also did a Two Tonner (Chloe) for the SORC around 1980? It was very short for a Two Tonner at 38 feet and didn't do very well.


All my European sources refer to Bruce Kelly, not Kelley?

Kelley is what I have always seen here in the USA. He did some successful MORC boats and production boats here in addition to his IOR work.


Mini Ton Cup listing as requested:

Thank you. I will add this to my spreadsheet.


1976-77 there was a debate between GBR/FRA on whether to apply further constraints to the IOR-rule. Mainly width and CGF.
From 1978 a limit on Bmax of 2500mm was imposed (European trailer width limit).

Are you saying all Mini Ton regattas after '77 were sailed using the measurement rule from '77?

salkbj
08-14-2012, 03:51 PM
Are you saying all Mini Ton regattas after '77 were sailed using the measurement rule from '77?

During 76-77 the french added some simplifications to the IOR-rule specific to the minitonners.
The British didn't agree and in parallel promoted new minimum raters calling them 1/8 Tonners with a rating limit at 16.3'. Eventually they came to an agreement for the 78 season, retaining the dreaded inclination measurements but adding a Bmax limit specific to the minitonners. Other than that the IOR amendments throughout the years applied to the minis as for all other IOR boats.
The big 1979 revision lifted the rating limit from 16' to 16.5'.

It was a pain to get inclination and floatation measurements right for these small boats. Often they used water-filled open top containers at the major regattas into which they lifted the boats for measurement.
More than one boat where caught moving anchor-chain around the boat.

Paul B
08-14-2012, 03:58 PM
During 76-77 the french added some simplifications to the IOR-rule specific to the minitonners.
The British didn't agree and in parallel promoted new minimum raters calling them 1/8 Tonners with a rating limit at 16.3'. Eventually they came to an agreement for the 78 season, retaining the dreaded inclination measurements but adding a Bmax limit specific to the minitonners. Other than that the IOR amendments throughout the years applied to the minis as for all other IOR boats.
The big 1979 revision lifted the rating limit from 16' to 16.5'.

It was a pain to get inclination and floatation measurements right for these small boats. Often they used water-filled open top containers at the major regattas into which they lifted the boats for measurement.
More than one boat where caught moving anchor-chain around the boat.

I imagne getting the floatation and inclining done on such small boats would be difficult. Any wind at all would put enough load on the rig to make dramatic changes to the inclining, so HUGE changes to the rating.

With such a dominance in the class by FMN I wonder why we didin't hear more from them in other sizes of IOR?

salkbj
08-14-2012, 04:35 PM
With such a dominance in the class by FMN I wonder why we didin't hear more from them in other sizes of IOR?

Fontana/Maletto/Navone really had a stranglehold on the Minis, but was actually one of the most productive IOR design teams throughout the 80's.
Only the Italians poured some serious money into the minitonners.
Claudio Maletto also designed "Azzurra", the Italian R12m.
There are a LOT of FMN 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4-tonners. Also 1-tonners(37.5) and AC mid-raters.
To give you a few examples:
-"Buonalena" came second at the OTC-80 from a fleet of 27.
-"Botta Dritta III" won the 3/4 Ton Cup-83.
-Famous 3/4-tonners "Naj Oleari" and "Bribon VII", always overshadowed by one or the other Jeppesen X-3/4 and later Farr's "Lone".
-"Son of a Gun", 1/4-tonner second at the QTC-79 with Paul Elvstrøm at the helm.
-"Willy Willy", still 4th at the QTC-81 despite disintegrating(dnf) in the Mistral-ridden long offshore race.

They did not "sell" many boats outside Italy, so the US/SoCal-press maybe didn't take notice!?

Paul B
08-14-2012, 05:10 PM
Fontana/Maletto/Navone really had a stranglehold on the Minis, but was actually one of the most productive IOR design teams throughout the 80's. Only the Italians poured some serious money into the minitonners.

I think most design studios would not have been too interested in doing a Mini Tonner design if there was other business to pursue. I think the fee would have been quite low, for the same work it would take to do a One Tonner or larger boat (with larger fee).


There are a LOT of FMN 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4-tonners. Also 1-tonners(27.5) and AC mid-raters.
To give you a few examples:
-"Buonalena" came second at the OTC-80 from a fleet of 27.
-"Botta Dritta III" won the 3/4 Ton Cup-83.
-Famous 3/4-tonners "Naj Oleari" and "Bribon VII", always overshadowed by one or the other Jeppesen X-3/4 and later Farr's "Lone".
-"Son of a Gun", 1/4-tonner second at the QTC-79 with Paul Elvstrøm at the helm.
-"Willy Willy", still 4th at the QTC-81 despite disintegrating(dnf) in the Mistral-ridden long offshore race.

They did not "sell" many boats outside Italy, so the US/SoCal-press maybe didn't take notice!?

I did know about Son of a Gun. I had Botta Dritta on my 3/4 Ton list, but did not know the designer(s). I think I got the name from a sailmaker ad at the end of the year, listing all their winners.

It seems most US publications lost interest in the Ton Cups after about 1979, until the 1T was moved to 30.55. Then that class was interesting because it was a must for Admirals Cup and other similar regattas.

I have spent quite a bit of time in the Nothern part of Italy, especially the Lakes Region. It was interesting to see all the QTs and (probably) MTs sitting in the yards and on moorings. We never had that sort of interest here.

salkbj
08-14-2012, 05:40 PM
It seems most US publications lost interest in the Ton Cups after about 1979, until the 1T was moved to 30.55. Then that class was interesting because it was a must for Admirals Cup and other similar regattas.

It all became an European affair with Northern/Atlantic Europe loosing wider interest in the mid 80's (except 1-tonners and some local pockets for the smaller classes, 1/2-ton in FRA, driven by the use in the Figaro solo racing, 3/4-ton in DEN and GER, driven by X-Yachts and Dehler, minis in NOR) while the Mediterranean's kept it at the highest level in all classes until the end in the early 90's.

By the way, you don't happen to have a comprehensive (US) report from the 1988 OTC in San Fransisco (I reach only ca 50% from the EU press)?

Paul B
08-14-2012, 06:51 PM
By the way, you don't happen to have a comprehensive (US) report from the 1988 OTC in San Fransisco (I reach only ca 50% from the EU press)?

I see no mention of the regatta in either SAIL or Yacht Racing/Cruising. Here is the article from Yachting (Dec. 1988).

Gary Baigent
08-14-2012, 10:10 PM
Paul and co, a small selection of stuff relating to your interests. If you want more ... I have plenty in the back shed.

Gary Baigent
08-14-2012, 10:25 PM
Threequarter Ton Drakkar and Quarter Ton Protis.

salkbj
08-15-2012, 05:34 AM
Paul and co, a small selection of stuff relating to your interests. If you want more ... I have plenty in the back shed.

Paul B, thank you for OTC-88!

In the third jpg from Gary Baigent there is a picture of "Jamaica". One of many FMN 1/2-tonners that didn't quite make it (dismasting in HTC-83) to the absolute top.

Ar Bigouden, in the 4th jpg, represent very well the French response when the lightweight door was shut 1979. Super-short LBG (thus allowing a low DSPL) combined with a super-long aft overhang. For Ar Bigouden over 2m(6'). The feat was to make those overhangs really contribute to the waterline lenght.

Of course, 1981 the overhang door was shut by introducing a limit on AGO/Y (aft overhang) to 15% of LBG.
The French responded by, aside from large depth station measurements, going down the minimum drag route taking whatever sail area they could get. Lacydon Protis(Fauroux) , winner QTC-81, (see jpg in Gary Baigent "second" entry) was the first of this breed. Briand and Andrieu would perfect it in the 1/2-ton class in the coming years. The concept (superior heavy weather, reaching, boats) fitted the commercial interest in the Figaro solo racing (Bay of Biscayne) being a major force in new boat commissioning.

Gary Baigent
08-15-2012, 06:47 AM
Quarter Ton, Japan.

salkbj
08-15-2012, 07:05 AM
Quarter Ton, Japan.

Magician V (winner QTC-78 with largely US crew) is always attributed a somewhat anonymous Yamaha Design Group.
Ichiro Yokoyama was the man behind the design. He would later become a principal designer for the Nippon AC challenge.

She had two sisters, "Shoun A", 9th, and the other with an unknown name retiring after a collision.

CT 249
08-15-2012, 07:28 AM
Great stuff, all.

My scanner's stuffed but I have articles on the '88 OTC (including one I commissioned and modified) in the archives if any particular details are needed.

I assume the Drakkar pictured is an earlier one; Drakker Noir was the long-overhang fractional wasn't it? The Drakkar pictured looks like a Peterson or something?

salkbj
08-15-2012, 08:02 AM
I assume the Drakkar pictured is an earlier one; Drakker Noir was the long-overhang fractional wasn't it? The Drakkar pictured looks like a Peterson or something?

Gary, if you can recall which issue of the Bateaux magazine the picture is from I can probably dig it up. I have no record (yet) of a "Drakkar" other than the Joubert-77 with the long-overhang, except for a 1/2-tonner from the 60's ;-) !?

Paul B
08-15-2012, 01:26 PM
Magician V (winner QTC-78 with largely US crew) is always attributed a somewhat anonymous Yamaha Design Group.
Ichiro Yokoyama was the man behind the design. He would later become a principal designer for the Nippon AC challenge.

She had two sisters, "Shoun A", 9th, and the other with an unknown name retiring after a collision.

On my current spreadsheet I do have Yokoyama-san as the actual designer of the Yamaha QT. This info was posted earlier on this thread by Roy Cundiff, the skipper of the Magician V.

There was a sister called Magician VI that also participated. I believe that is the Magician that is shown in the photos Gary posted.

Paul B
08-15-2012, 01:42 PM
Paul and co, a small selection of stuff relating to your interests. If you want more ... I have plenty in the back shed.

That write up of MBD shows the interesting numbers she had for a MT. In fact, she is almost 2 feet longer than the initial Farr World Champion QT!

The minis here in the USA were probably sailed more often under MORC than under IOR level rating. Then in '79 MORC introduced the "4Q" rule. That is Rule version 4, after trials from A to B to C..until they tried the last one that gave the results they wanted, Q.

As you can see from the attached article from the class newsletter (using the L22 sailplan as the basis) this killed the boats with extreme fractional rigs (ratings jumping over a foot for some). So from then on probably 90+% of all MORC boats had masthead rigs (or very near masthead fractionals like 15/16ths).

So the poor old mini tonners were done in for level rating racing by the bigger, more rule pushing designs like MBD and the Peterson Great White. Then they were done in for MORC racing by the rule change. So in one year your nice little production boat (like the L22) that could be very competitive under two measurement rules was no longer competitive in either.

Paul B
08-15-2012, 01:52 PM
Of course, 1981 the overhang door was shut by introducing a limit on AGO/Y (aft overhang) to 15% of LBG.
The French responded by, aside from large depth station measurements, going down the minimum drag route taking whatever sail area they could get.

I think the Technical Committee did a good thing by limiting OHA. That was really getting too far out there.

I recall reading a quote from Briand in discussing his QT winner. He said something about being able to get a good amount of L when traded off against sail area, which he thought was too expensive under the rule. His quote was something about trading the length for "the area of his shirt".

Of course his boats were not only good in the heavy air. Passion2 was really quick in the light stuff here in SoCal, even after a couple of years when newer OTs (30.55) came on the scene. Especially against the JN 40s (younger sisters to Diva) the old Briand was still very fast in the light.

salkbj
08-15-2012, 02:24 PM
Of course his boats were not only good in the heavy air. Passion2 was really quick in the light stuff here in SoCal, even after a couple of years when newer OTs (30.55) came on the scene. Especially against the JN 40s (younger sisters to Diva) the old Briand was still very fast in the light.

Interesting! So "Passion 2" ended up in California. Do you remember which year she showed up?
I've lost track of her after the Sardinia Cup-84 where she ended mid-fleet 22/48 after tearing up the mainsail in the long offshore race but also winning one inshore race.

Those JN40's you mention. Where they built in America? I have a note; 5 JN 1-tonners taking part in SORC-85. One named "Patriot", the best, 8th in class E.
In Europe, 3 Joubert/Nivelt "true" 1-tonners where built on the back of "Diva" (which ended up in Sweden).
"Clin d'OEil'85"(84), "Espace Du Desir"(85) and the Spanish "Illes Balears"(85). Neither where to repeat the success of "Diva".

Paul B
08-15-2012, 03:10 PM
Interesting! So "Passion 2" ended up in California. Do you remember which year she showed up?
I've lost track of her after the Sardinia Cup-84 where she ended mid-fleet 22/48 after tearing up the mainsail in the long offshore race but also winning one inshore race.

I'm sure she was here in '85, and as far as I know she is still here, sitting pretty much unused in Newport Beach last I heard.


Those JN40's you mention. Where they built in America? I have a note; 5 JN 1-tonners taking part in SORC-85. One named "Patriot", the best, 8th in class E.


The JN 40s were built in two places, one in Canada (Wiggers) and the other was Lager (on the US East Coast?).

Patriot was sailed at the circuit by Dave Ullman. I have photos of her sitting out of the water at the '85 SORC. I sailed on the boat during Long Beach Race Week in either '85 or '86. Then a couple of years later one of my mentors Jerry Montgomery bought her and I did some races with him. Today she lives in a slip at my yacht club. Jerry still races her from time to time.

In 1986 we were sailing our little 30 foot MORC boat in an IOR regatta. Our boat was designed to also rate 30.5 under IOR. The JN boats (there were about 4 of them out here) were much faster than we were upwind, but downwind we were faster than they were. They had a really low SHR, less than 14.5 as I recall.

Over the years we also had the Davidson Pendragon (30.55), an X1T, a couple of Farrs, a Frers (with a big rig, so higher than 30.5), the Andrews that beat Diva in class at the SORC and was 2nd OA behind Diva (Allegiance), a masthead Andrews (IMPACT, overall probably the fastest of them all in SoCal, but also over the 30.55 limit), a Dubois (very fast in the light) and others. So for about 3 years there was a good amount of interest in this class here.

Richard 4073
08-15-2012, 04:57 PM
I think the Technical Committee did a good thing by limiting OHA. That was really getting too far out there.

I recall reading a quote from Briand in discussing his QT winner. He said something about being able to get a good amount of L when traded off against sail area, which he thought was too expensive under the rule. His quote was something about trading the length for "the area of his shirt".

Of course his boats were not only good in the heavy air. Passion2 was really quick in the light stuff here in SoCal, even after a couple of years when newer OTs (30.55) came on the scene. Especially against the JN 40s (younger sisters to Diva) the old Briand was still very fast in the light.

I always thought the Briand boats of the 1980s were quite sweet looking boats, with a nice turn of sheer up for'ard and curved transom. I have an article on the 1983 Half Ton Cup which Free Lance won, Briand commented that "There are two ways to design a boat. One is to bump the measurement points to gain as much sail area as possible and the other, which I used for Free Lance, is to define how big a sail area is needed and then draw a clean and fast boat." I'll scan and post it tonight. It includes a photo of the Threequarter ton champion Bottadritta, a FMN design which looks to take the other approach, with a pretty tortured shape around AGS.

Paul B
08-15-2012, 06:37 PM
OK, some good expertise here.

On my spreadsheet I am missing the following info. Who can help fill in the gaps?

QT Cup
1971 Tequila (Who was designer?)
1983 ????
1990 Winner was Ave. Who designed it?
1992 Jonathan VI Who designed it?


3/4 Ton Cup

1987 ????
1993 ????
1994 ????


One Ton

1982 ????



2 Ton

1977 ????
1978 ????
1980 ????

Gary Baigent
08-15-2012, 06:59 PM
Great stuff, all.

My scanner's stuffed but I have articles on the '88 OTC (including one I commissioned and modified) in the archives if any particular details are needed.

I assume the Drakkar pictured is an earlier one; Drakker Noir was the long-overhang fractional wasn't it? The Drakkar pictured looks like a Peterson or something?

There were two Drakkars, both 3/4 Ton - and Drakkar Noir was in '77 cup. I think the first was a couple of years earlier (looks like a Berret or Joubert, don't think there were many Peterson's built in France during that period). I'll dig around in my stuff to verify if this is correct.

Gary Baigent
08-15-2012, 07:04 PM
Some more from Bateaux and Neptune Nautisme.

Gary Baigent
08-15-2012, 07:11 PM
Quarter Ton '78, '81.

Paul B
08-15-2012, 09:47 PM
OK, some good expertise here.

On my spreadsheet I am missing the following info. Who can help fill in the gaps?

QT Cup
1971 Tequila (Who was designer?) (Harle)
1983 ???? (Not contested?)
1990 Winner was Ave. Who designed it? (Pepin Gonzales)
1992 Jonathan VI Who designed it? (Alessando Vismara)


3/4 Ton Cup

1987 ????
1993 ????
1994 ????


One Ton

1982 ????


2 Ton

1977 ????
1978 ????
1980 ????

OK, I have a couple of the holes filled. What about the rest?

Gary Baigent
08-15-2012, 10:04 PM
Gary, if you can recall which issue of the Bateaux magazine the picture is from I can probably dig it up. I have no record (yet) of a "Drakkar" other than the Joubert-77 with the long-overhang, except for a 1/2-tonner from the 60's ;-) !?

Salkbj, since the Drakkar image is just one of many ripouts, there is not date or number, just that I had written in pen Drakkar 3/4TC on the back ... but I'm guessing it was in the Bateaux 230 -240 period, or maybe a little earlier. It was a colour shot taken before the 1977 Threequarter TC.
But if I remember correctly, there were two Drakkars at that year's cup - so maybe the same boat.
Paul, I'll keep looking. Cheers.

salkbj
08-16-2012, 05:03 AM
Salkbj, since the Drakkar image is just one of many ripouts, there is not date or number, just that I had written in pen Drakkar 3/4TC on the back ... but I'm guessing it was in the Bateaux 230 -240 period, or maybe a little earlier. It was a colour shot taken before the 1977 Threequarter TC.
But if I remember correctly, there were two Drakkars at that year's cup - so maybe the same boat.
Paul, I'll keep looking. Cheers.

I'll flip through all my 75-77 French magazines when I find the time. I agree it's probably a Berret, Mauric or Joubert and most likely from 1975, although there is a French Peterson 3/4ton one off from 76 that I do not yet have pictures of.
The crushing victory of Norlin's "Accent" at the QTC-74 made all French designers follow the big, high cp concept for the 75 season and this one looks just like them. Non of them where particularly fast. Before "Accent", the French where mostly inspired by the Soling type hull shape. Of course, 1975 there would be a new role model, "45 South" :-) although those who had seen "Robber" saw nothing new.
Sorry I'm not able to provide illustrations at the moment.

salkbj
08-16-2012, 05:38 AM
OK, I have a couple of the holes filled. What about the rest?


QT Cup
1971 Tequila (Harlé)
1983 Not contested
1990 Ave-Alta Velocidad RENFE (Pepin Gonzales)
1992 Jonathan VI exGen Mar(3) (Alessando Vismara)


3/4 Ton Cup

1987 Jelfi-X (Jeppesen X-3/4mkII )
1993 Xacobeo'93 exLarios (Jeppesen one off)
1994 Galicia Candide exLarios (Jeppesen one off)


One Ton

1982 Not contested


2 Ton

1977 Not contested
1978 Iorana IV (Holland)
1980 Not contested

Richard 4073
08-16-2012, 05:40 AM
Here's that article I mentioned on the 1983 Half Ton Cup, and includes a small section on the Threequarter Ton Cup too.

Paul, I'm trying to help with completion of the winners list but some tricky ones there! I have a copy of a published One Ton Cup winners list which confirms that the 1982 series, scheduled to be held in Brighton, was wiped. The UK Quarter Ton class website (www.quartertonclass.org) has a winners list which would provide the answer for 1983, but the link seem to be corrupted at the moment. I know Decosol was around in 1987, perhaps the 3/4 Cup winner that year? (not sure of the design - Humphreys?)

Richard 4073
08-16-2012, 05:48 AM
Ahh, I see Salkbj has come through with the answers!

Paul B
08-16-2012, 01:29 PM
On my spreadsheet I am missing the following info. Who can help fill in the gaps?

QT Cup
1971 Tequila (Harlé)
1983 Not contested
1990 Ave-Alta Velocidad RENFE (Pepin Gonzales)
1992 Jonathan VI exGen Mar(3) (Alessando Vismara) I think maybe it was Jonothan before it was Gen-Mar? Gen Mar won the next year.


3/4 Ton Cup

1987 Jelfi-X (Jeppesen X-3/4mkII )
1993 Xacobeo'93 exLarios (Jeppesen one off) I show Xacobeo as ex-Lone and winning in '92?
1994 Galicia Candide exLarios (Jeppesen one off)


Also, I know Jeppeson boats (X 102s) won in '81 and '82, but I don't have the names

One Ton

1982 Not contested


2 Ton

1977 Not contested
1978 Iorana IV (Holland) I knew this. Don't know why it was't on the sheet.
1980 Not contested

I am very close to finishing. After I get this 3/4 ton stuff cleared up I will post the document.

salkbj
08-16-2012, 02:02 PM
I am very close to finishing. After I get this 3/4 ton stuff cleared up I will post the document.

QT Cup
1971 Tequila (Harlé)
1983 Not contested
1990 Ave-Alta Velocidad RENFE (Pepin Gonzales)
1992 Jonathan VI exGen Mar(3) (Alessando Vismara-90) I think maybe it was Jonothan before it was Gen-Mar? Gen Mar won the next year.
1993 Gen Mar(4) (Vismara-92)


3/4 Ton Cup

1981 Soldier Blue (Jeppesen X-102)
1982 Lille Du (Jeppesen X-102)
1987 Jelfi-X (Jeppesen X-3/4mkII )
1990 Lone (Farr)
1991 Lone (Farr)
1992 Xacobeo Galicia exLone (Farr)
1993 Xacobeo'93 exLarios (Jeppesen one off) I show Xacobeo as ex-Lone and winning in '92?
1994 Galicia Candide exLarios (Jeppesen one off)
1990-94 with Pedro Campos at the helm.

Also, I know Jeppeson boats (X 102s) won in '81 and '82, but I don't have the names

One Ton

1982 Not contested Brighton GBR. Only 8 entered.


2 Ton

1977 Not contested Halifax CAN
1978 Iorana IV (Holland) I knew this. Don't know why it was't on the sheet.
1980 Not contested It was decided to hold the TTC only AC years and somewhere in the channel.

Paul B
08-16-2012, 02:22 PM
QT Cup
1971 Tequila (Harlé)
1983 Not contested
1990 Ave-Alta Velocidad RENFE (Pepin Gonzales)
1992 Jonathan VI exGen Mar(3) (Alessando Vismara-90) I think maybe it was Jonothan before it was Gen-Mar? Gen Mar won the next year.
1993 Gen Mar(4) (Vismara-92)


3/4 Ton Cup

1981 Soldier Blue (Jeppesen X-102)
1982 Lille Du (Jeppesen X-102)
1987 Jelfi-X (Jeppesen X-3/4mkII )
1990 Lone (Farr)
1991 Lone (Farr)
1992 Xacobeo Galicia exLone (Farr)
1993 Xacobeo'93 exLarios (Jeppesen one off) I show Xacobeo as ex-Lone and winning in '92?
1994 Galicia Candide exLarios (Jeppesen one off)
1990-94 with Pedro Campos at the helm.

Also, I know Jeppeson boats (X 102s) won in '81 and '82, but I don't have the names

One Ton

1982 Not contested Brighton GBR. Only 8 entered.


2 Ton

1977 Not contested Halifax CAN
1978 Iorana IV (Holland) I knew this. Don't know why it was't on the sheet.
1980 Not contested It was decided to hold the TTC only AC years and somewhere in the channel.

OK. Here's the spreadsheet. All winners/designers are now identified. Locations, crews, and other information is welcome to complete the document.

salkbj
08-16-2012, 02:25 PM
OK. Here's the spreadsheet. All winners/designers are now identified. Locations, crews, and other information is welcome to complete the document.

Pay attention to the spelling. It is Finn Fire II...Solent Saracen(3)...Maligawa IV...Regnbågen(1), Lille Du, not Lille Due.... and Botta Dritta III...and Green Piece'85(X-3/4mkII)...and Indulgence V...and Okyalos IIX(X-3/4mkIIcarb) resp. Okyalos IX(X-3/4mkII full carb)

Number within brackets=not part of the actual name but still part of sequence

1975 TQTC: Amoress II(Norlin) 3rd, easily fastest, doing Horizon Job on the fleet which cost them dearly after missing the navigation. Sisterboat Amoress I with not as good crew, 2x2nd 3x dnf,broken tiller,sea sickness!!!.
1979 TQTC: One of the largest fleets ever, 39 boats, 8 Nations, only three from outside Baltic region, GBR and NED, all Jones boat, the NED boat with the name "Helluva Blowjob"
Only two boats finished last long offshore after the Fastnet Storm came sweeping in over Denmark.

Miami,Hankø,Plymouth,La Rochelle,Victoria,Hundested,La Trinité,Helsinki,Dénia,Trieste,Kiel,Marstrand,Torquay,Nieuwpoort,Marciana Marina,Pireus,Flensburg,Rungsted,Bayona,Palma,Santa Ponsa

Ib Ussing-Andersen(DEN) instrumental in TQT81,82,88(2nd),90,91,92

Paul B
08-16-2012, 05:22 PM
Pay attention to the spelling. It is Finn Fire II...Solent Saracen(3)...Maligawa IV...Regnbågen(1), Lille Du, not Lille Due.... and Botta Dritta III...and Green Piece'85(X-3/4mkII)...and Indulgence V...and Okyalos IIX(X-3/4mkIIcarb) resp. Okyalos IX(X-3/4mkII full carb)

Number within brackets=not part of the actual name but still part of sequence

1975 TQTC: Amoress II(Norlin) 3rd, easily fastest, doing Horizon Job on the fleet which cost them dearly after missing the navigation. Do you have results that show the Norlin boat would have won without a navigation error? Sisterboat Amoress I with not as good crew, 2x2nd 3x dnf,broken tiller,sea sickness!!!.
1979 TQTC: One of the largest fleets ever, 39 boats, 8 Nations, only three from outside Baltic region, GBR and NED, all Jones boat, the NED boat with the name "Helluva Blowjob"
Only two boats finished last long offshore after the Fastnet Storm came sweeping in over Denmark.

Miami,Hankø,Plymouth,La Rochelle,Victoria,Hundested,La Trinité,Helsinki,Dénia,Trieste,Kiel,Marstrand,Torquay,Nieuwpoort,Marciana Marina,Pireus,Flensburg,Rungsted,Bayona,Palma,Santa Ponsa

Ib Ussing-Andersen(DEN) instrumental in TQT81,82,88(2nd),90,91,92 '90 through 92 was Lone, a Farr boat. I thought Ib was tied to X Yachts. So why was he instrumental in a Farr project?

Thank you for all the input. I'm updating things as best I can from magazines, books, and internet searches. Input from people like you really help to fill things out.

salkbj
08-16-2012, 05:49 PM
Thank you for all the input. I'm updating things as best I can from magazines, books, and internet searches. Input from people like you really help to fill things out.

Doing the same thing but from an European perspective. I can tell you, I'm pretty lost when it comes to the Pacific scene :-) My hazzle is all those bloody languages ;-)

1 Solent Saracen(3) 4, 3, 3, 9, 1 John MacCarthy/
2 Golden Delicious 2,14, 5, 6, 2 Ron Holland/
3 Amoress II 1, 5,*12, 1, 3 /Lars Andersson/ brother
4 Peticache 3, 6, 9, 10, 4 Dick Carter/Stanley Keen/
17 Amoress I dnf,2,dnf,2,dnf /Bo Andersson/ brother

Easy, "Lone" was commissioned by a Dane, Jan Bonde-Nielsen, living in Spain. A funny story; TQTC-90, Flensburg, had the offshore races into Danish water. The owner stayed ashore in those races as the Danish tax-man was under the illusion he had brought a bit to much money down to Spain ;-) It was all over the tabloids.
88 he came second with Larios(helming), a Spanish Jeppesen one off, beaten by a X-3/4 carbon, with the X-Yachts team (Soderlund/Jeppesen/Dittmar). However, there is always something, this time "bad luck" with calms.
I think Ib Ussing-Andersen was more of a Diamond Sails guy, eventually running the Spanish loft.

Paul B
08-16-2012, 06:01 PM
Doing the same thing but from an European perspective. I can tell you, I'm pretty lost when it comes to the Pacific scene :-) My hazzle is all those bloody languages ;-)

1 Solent Saracen(3) 4, 3, 3, 9, 1 John MacCarthy/
2 Golden Delicious 2,14, 5, 6, 2 Ron Holland/
3 Amoress II 1, 5,*12, 1, 3 /Lars Andersson/ brother
4 Peticache 3, 6, 9, 10, 4 Dick Carter/Stanley Keen/
17 Amoress I dnf,2,dnf,2,dnf /Bo Andersson/ brother

Easy, "Lone" was commissioned by a Dane, Jan Bonde-Nielsen, living in Spain. A funny story; TQTC-90, Kiel, had the offshore races into Danish water. The owner stayed ashore in those races as the Danish tax-man was under the illusion he had brought a bit to much money down to Spain ;-)
88 he came second with Larios(helming), a Spanish Jeppesen one off, beaten by a X-3/4 carbon, with the X-Yachts team (Soderlund/Jeppesen/Dittmar). However, there is always something, this time "bad luck" with calms.
I think Ib Ussing-Andersen was more of a Diamond Sails guy.

OK, I am updating the sheet with all this info you are providing.

Yes, Ib was Diamond Sails. Everything I ever saw about Ton Cups or Admiral's Cup mentioning Diamond Sails were on X Boats. That's why I was surprised to see him mentioned with some other project not X.

salkbj
08-16-2012, 06:36 PM
OK, I am updating the sheet with all this info you are providing.

Yes, Ib was Diamond Sails. Everything I ever saw about Ton Cups or Admiral's Cup mentioning Diamond Sails were on X Boats. That's why I was surprised to see him mentioned with some other project not X.

Diamond had by the end of the 80's a North-style grip on the market all across Europe.
So, naturally sold it all to North providing a good customer stock for those new one-piece moulded sails.

salkbj
08-17-2012, 09:07 AM
Great stuff, all.

My scanner's stuffed but I have articles on the '88 OTC (including one I commissioned and modified) in the archives if any particular details are needed.

I assume the Drakkar pictured is an earlier one; Drakker Noir was the long-overhang fractional wasn't it? The Drakkar pictured looks like a Peterson or something?

"Drakkar"(NED) is a Kalik 33 flush(Jac de Ridder). I couldn't find the picture in Bateaux 75-77, so must be later (need to open another box).
Another Kalik 33 flush, "Kalik"(BEL), André Nélis, with slightly different cockpit layout finished 9th (Source: die Yacht).

Gary Baigent
08-17-2012, 07:05 PM
Saikbj, Thankyou, Jac de Ridder 33 - that sounds and looks (length) from image to be right. I think the double page spread is from an earlier Bateaux, maybe early 1974.
I have an old Yachting World ripout ... somewhere, will find it, of the 1977 3/4 ton Worlds ... and I'm sure there were two Drakkars mentioned.

salkbj
08-17-2012, 07:28 PM
Saikbj, Thankyou, Jac de Ridder 33 - that sounds and looks (length) from image to be right. I think the double page spread is from an earlier Bateaux, maybe early 1974.
I have an old Yachting World ripout ... somewhere, will find it, of the 1977 3/4 ton Worlds ... and I'm sure there were two Drakkars mentioned.

I can confirm there were two "Drakkar":
1) The Joubert-77 with the long aft overhang (which finished 10th after dismasting)
2) The Dutch customized Kalik 33 de Ridder-77 from your picture, which apparently didn't place very well cause can't be found in any reported result list.
Her near sister, Belgian "Kalik", the "official promotion-boat" driven by André Nélis finished 9th.
I checked Bateaux 78 and the picture wasn't there. It turns out I miss November 77 so with my usual luck it was probably that issue the picture came from.

Gary, I still hope you find that Yachting World!

Richard 4073
08-19-2012, 04:29 AM
Here's a photo of Drakkar (77) and an article on the 1977 Threequarter Ton Cup where she gets a mention.

Gary Baigent
08-19-2012, 06:29 AM
OK, good find/collection, Richard. That's Drakkar Noir, very much like the Whitings but without the distortions. Oesophage Bogie, what great names, great looking boats too.

Richard 4073
08-23-2012, 04:39 AM
OK. Here's the spreadsheet. All winners/designers are now identified. Locations, crews, and other information is welcome to complete the document.

Hi Paul, here's some edits from me, managed to fill in a few gaps here and there (any changes in red font). Well done pulling all this together.

Paul B
08-23-2012, 05:47 PM
Hi Paul, here's some edits from me, managed to fill in a few gaps here and there (any changes in red font). Well done pulling all this together.

Thank you. I have some other comments from others, so I will update the document.

I doubt it will ever be complete, so I always appreciate any input from anywhere.

Paul B
08-24-2012, 04:55 PM
Paul B, thank you for OTC-88!


Here is the article from SAIL. I didn't find it earlier because it was not printed until the Jan '89 issue.

salkbj
08-25-2012, 12:20 PM
Here is the article from SAIL. I didn't find it earlier because it was not printed until the Jan '89 issue.

Thanks again Paul B! A few more pieces to the puzzle. I hope maybe CT 249 has info in his raw material for his article to fill in the blanks from the bottom.

Tato
08-27-2012, 05:29 AM
I found this thread yesterday and want to share with you a pic from a Paul Whiting´s quarter Ton, builded in laminated wood in 1977. I am not completely sure, but believe that is the same design as Magic Bus. I am the one in the crew with the white t shirt doing the bow ...without gemini. Was a fast boat and we beated easily the rest of quarter ton boats, mainly Ron Hollands "Manzanita". Now its being in a restoration process in the same shipyard that built it 35 years ago and because those guys are master in their job I am pretty sure that when they finish their job the boat will be a masterpiece .

salkbj
08-27-2012, 06:19 AM
I found this thread yesterday and want to share with you a pic from a Paul Whiting´s quarter Ton, builded in laminated wood in 1977...

Hi Tato! Do you remember her name and sail number?

On the subject of "Magic Bus", I have a note of her being sailed by Germans in the QTC-77 (G 2593, "Muff", Dillitzer, 20/58). I wounder if "Muff" really is exMagic Bus?

There was a Whiting namned "Magic Bus" (along with "Self Whiting") also at the QTC-78 in Japan. Is it the same boat or maybe a Whiting 26?

Tato
08-27-2012, 07:23 AM
The boat´s name is still the same MEIGA XVI, and still belongs to the building shypyard owner, they never sold the boat. The shypyard´s name is "Lagos" they only use wood to build boats and their website its http://www.astilleroslagos.com/
if you need more information you can contact with my friend and current owner Alfredo Lagos jr. son of the Meiga´s builder, using the email contacta@astilleroslagos.com, his father is the one in the boat´s astern taking care of the runners, in the picture taken in Vigo´s Ria in August 1978.

salkbj
08-27-2012, 07:39 AM
The boat´s name is still the same MEIGA XVI, and still belongs to the building shypyard owner, they never sold the boat.....

Thank you Tato for clearing that up. I had her listed as designed by a mr Lagos, now I understand he was the builder!

Any plans to go to Cowes for the revived QTC?

Tato
08-27-2012, 08:04 AM
Hi Salkbj.

It´s the first noticed I have about the revived QTC. Here in Vigo there are more QT, from different ages, from elvströem 1/4, manzanitas and some survivors from the QTC´s that took part in Bayona in 1990 and 1993. I will spread this information between the owners.

salkbj
08-27-2012, 08:07 AM
Hi Salkbj.

It´s the first noticed I have about the revived QTC. Here in Vigo there are more QT, from different ages, from elvströem 1/4, manzanitas and some survivors from the QTC´s that took part in Bayona in 1990 and 1993. I will spread this information between the owners.

http://www.quartertonclass.org/

"Runaway Bus", another Whiting-77 is currently for sale in the UK.

Richard 4073
08-27-2012, 04:10 PM
Hi Tato, thanks for posting that photo. Your boat looks like Runaway Bus that salkbj mentioned, a bit of a development of Magic Bus with a narrower and more rounded stern sections (photo of Magic Bus attached). I don't have much information on this later design but they will have been a reaction to the rule changes in '76 that changed the measurement of the aft sections (and penalised wide sterns).

I hope you can post some photos of the restoration process!

salkbj
08-27-2012, 04:52 PM
It looks like "Muff" is more alike "Meiga XVI" than "Magic Bus". My info about "Muff" should probably be interpreted as Magic Bus-type.

Still there was a "Magic Bus" in Japan. All I know it must have placed worse than 12th and associated to a "Self Whiting" also participating, but not associated to "Seaply/Seaflyer".

Gary Baigent
08-27-2012, 08:52 PM
Found a few Magic Bus shots, plus Russell Pumper's cockpit and Newspaper Taxi's launch.

Paul B
08-27-2012, 09:29 PM
Here's the article from Yacht Racing Magazine

Richard 4073
08-27-2012, 09:43 PM
Interesting article on the 1981 QTC. The final race must have been horrendous, a bit of an unusual regatta when there are only three boats left, which then anchored over night and the winner was the one that ventured back out onto the course first!

salkbj
09-24-2012, 08:48 AM
"Magician V" (winner QTC78) was still floating in Japan last year!
74565

tullospaul
09-29-2012, 07:37 AM
For anyone interested, Terrorist and Hawkeye are discussed earlier in this thread, with photos of both boats. You'll just have to do a search of the thread to find the info.some recent pics of terrorist

sean9c
09-29-2012, 02:35 PM
some recent pics of terrorist

That's a project. How much original structure did you have to replace?

CRM
09-29-2012, 04:19 PM
Nice to see the the old boat is getting some TLC. The bilge board trunks appears to have been replaced. They were not present leaving Port Townsend. The shop looks business like, very professional. The boat is in good hands.

Best of luck, Craig.

tullospaul
09-29-2012, 04:23 PM
That's a project. How much original structure did you have to replace?you said it. the framing & most of the plating was fine. there was, of course, some pitting in the area where the lead ballast was pored. the ballast & hull plating beneath it had been removed by the previous owner who had the hull replated where the ballast once was. the boards, trunks & a 4' square section of deck had been removed & disposed of. the custom tiller had been broken & slab welded w/ 1/4". so the boards & associated trunks had to be fabricated & installed. additional framing in the bilge area was added in prep for reinstalling ballast. also fabricated & installed were stern tube, engine frame, companionway hatch w/ dodger, stairs, stanchions & an optional dual rudder system for shoal draft. (the original rudder is over 4 1/2' deep). i personally have over 1500 hours of welding & fabricating in the boat. it has since been blasted, alodined, primed, faired & reprimed. final fairing is ongoing. but there's finally light at the end of the tunnel. this whole process is over 2 1/2 years.

tullospaul
09-29-2012, 04:30 PM
Nice to see the the old boat is getting some TLC. The bilge board trunks appears to have been replaced. They were not present leaving Port Townsend. The shop looks business like, very professional. The boat is in good hands.

Best of luck, Craig. thanks craig. after all the blood(literally), sweat &
electrocutions, that's gratifying to hear.

sean9c
09-29-2012, 06:46 PM
you said it. the framing & most of the plating was fine. there was, of course, some pitting in the area where the lead ballast was pored. the ballast & hull plating beneath it had been removed by the previous owner who had the hull replated where the ballast once was. the boards, trunks & a 4' square section of deck had been removed & disposed of. the custom tiller had been broken & slab welded w/ 1/4". so the boards & associated trunks had to be fabricated & installed. additional framing in the bilge area was added in prep for reinstalling ballast. also fabricated & installed were stern tube, engine frame, companionway hatch w/ dodger, stairs, stanchions & an optional dual rudder system for shoal draft. (the original rudder is over 4 1/2' deep). i personally have over 1500 hours of welding & fabricating in the boat. it has since been blasted, alodined, primed, faired & reprimed. final fairing is ongoing. but there's finally light at the end of the tunnel. this whole process is over 2 1/2 years.

Wow, that is a lot of work, though honestly I'm surprised it wasn't worse being an alloy raceboat that went unloved for a lot of years.
Certainly sounds like you're doing the prep, fairing the right way. From the deck pics it appears to be West 407, or microballoons anyway, I'm assuming in epoxy

Paul B
09-29-2012, 07:34 PM
"Magician V" (winner QTC78) was still floating in Japan last year!
74565

Do you know where it is and who owns it????

Roy posted on this thread last year that he would like to find it so he could possibly purchase it and restore it. If you have any idea of how to contact the owner, or anyone who knows where it is, please let me know and I'll let Roy know (if he doesn't see it here himself).

Paul B
09-29-2012, 07:37 PM
some recent pics of terrorist

Very cool. Nice to see someone bring back a historic old boat. If not for someone like you I'm sure it would have been recycled for the scrap aluminum price.

I'll be sending an e-mail to Marty later to tell him to take a look at this thread again.

RCundiff
09-29-2012, 07:49 PM
Do you know where it is and who owns it????

Roy posted on this thread last year that he would like to find it so he could possibly purchase it and restore it. If you have any idea of how to contact the owner, or anyone who knows where it is, please let me know and I'll let Roy know (if he doesn't see it here himself).
Paul,

Yes I did see it and have been communicating with Klas, I don't seem to have your email address, Lost it ?

I dug a lot of stuff and have been including Makoto Kikuchi at N/S Japan and Ichro Yokoyama, and Rob Fry in NZ.

Later ..... Roy

Paul B
09-29-2012, 08:04 PM
Paul,

Yes I did see it and have been communicating with Klas, I don't seem to have your email address, Lost it ?

I dug a lot of stuff and have been including Makoto Kikuchi at N/S Japan and Ichro Yokoyama, and Rob Fry in NZ.

Later ..... Roy

OK, good to hear.

I'll drop you an e-mail now so you have my address again.

If you get that thing out here I'll sail with you on Wednesdays next summer!

Paul B
10-17-2012, 08:40 PM
Teel built, that why the name was familiar. I knew Stan and John and had to keep up on what they were building.
Did you ever see the cold molded QT they built, designed by a friend of theirs that was at North Sails. It was unremarkable, old style small stern IOR style. They built it out of basswood which is super soft. It quickly started leaking at the centerline. I think it was scrapped.


I think this is the boat you were talking about. I do recall Croshere being involved in sail design for North Sails, but not out here. By the time I recall he was back east somewhere. I never saw this boat. Must not have been around too long.

sean9c
10-17-2012, 10:48 PM
I think this is the boat you were talking about. I do recall Croshere being involved in sail design for North Sails, but not out here. By the time I recall he was back east somewhere. I never saw this boat. Must not have been around too long.

Dave Croshere, that's the guy and the boat. Stan was originally a dinghy builder, mostly Finn, FD and OK I think Dave was a friend from Dinghy racing. The boat was a pooch and likely named for the brew, their capacity was impressive.
The boat was cold molded from basswood, the skin was let into a rabbet in the timber keelson. Whatever technique or glue thy used to do this didn't work. After sailing it a little the writing was on the wall that the design missed the mark and the boat had started to leak at the keelson. I think they pulled the hardware and scrapped the hull. I sailed on it a little, really tender upwind, rolled like mad downwind.
I wonder whatever happened to Stan Teel? I think John went to Tahoe and got into homebuilding. Stan hung on for years I think the Port finally took the property for expansion.
Good old days

Paul B
10-17-2012, 11:02 PM
After sailing it a little the writing was on the wall that the design missed the mark and the boat had started to leak at the keelson. I think they pulled the hardware and scrapped the hull. I sailed on it a little, really tender upwind, rolled like mad downwind.


Here's another from the same year (1974) and from your neck of the woods. Did you ev er see it? I didn't, never even heard of it or the designer/builders.

sean9c
10-18-2012, 12:10 AM
Here's another from the same year (1974) and from your neck of the woods. Did you ev er see it? I didn't, never even heard of it or the designer/builders.

Wow, where do you get all this old stuff. Geoff was a friend,and a Kurt Vonnegut reader, designed and was building it in his folks garage. Never wore shoes feet covered in dry resin. Built like a brick outhouse out of Seaflex. I don't remember the details but the step chine in the hull caused IOR trouble, Geoff gave up on it sold it to another friend Mike Shaw who finished it and PHRF raced it a little. I don't remember it showing any speed, Mike sold it and it disappeared. Geoff worked for Sails by Watts for a little while, and along with Bill Petersen and a couple other guys there bought that Peterson QT hull, put a ply deck on and went PHRF racing, fun little boat , always full of good guys, he then moved to the mountains and became a ski instructor. Geoff was a smart guy, funny, a good sailor, I haven't though about him in years, thanks for reminding me.

Paul B
10-18-2012, 07:02 AM
I don't remember the details but the step chine in the hull caused IOR trouble,

I was wondering about that. I didn't get my first copy of the IOR rule until about 1977, so I wasn't sure about earlier versions. But by 1977 you were not allowed to have hollows in transverse sections except near the bow. So his "step" would not have been legal under the IOR. Maybe he should have read the rule closely before starting to build the boat?

In the early 80s I was involved in a custom One Tonner that was in a rush to get in the water for their first regatta. The measurer found a small area under the stern counter that had a small hollow at the CL. We're talking about 1 or 2 mm gap over a 100mm diameter. The measurer would not let that go and made the owner mix up a hot batch of WEST, fill the area, sand it, then remeasure before he would sign off.


Geoff worked for Sails by Watts for a little while, and along with Bill Petersen and a couple other guys there bought that Peterson QT hull, put a ply deck on and went PHRF racing, fun little boat , always full of good guys,

I did some projects with Billy later, when he was partners with Norman in the MdR Sobstad loft. Billy was a real sailing talent. Ed "Lorence from Torrence" was a great guy who owned the Watts loft and then the Sobstad franchise out here.

sean9c
10-19-2012, 01:17 AM
I was wondering about that. I didn't get my first copy of the IOR rule until about 1977, so I wasn't sure about earlier versions. But by 1977 you were not allowed to have hollows in transverse sections except near the bow. So his "step" would not have been legal under the IOR. Maybe he should have read the rule closely before starting to build the boat?

In the early 80s I was involved in a custom One Tonner that was in a rush to get in the water for their first regatta. The measurer found a small area under the stern counter that had a small hollow at the CL. We're talking about 1 or 2 mm gap over a 100mm diameter. The measurer would not let that go and made the owner mix up a hot batch of WEST, fill the area, sand it, then remeasure before he would sign off.




I did some projects with Billy later, when he was partners with Norman in the MdR Sobstad loft. Billy was a real sailing talent. Ed "Lorence from Torrence" was a great guy who owned the Watts loft and then the Sobstad franchise out here.

I'm thinking Geoff started Player Piano in the real early '70's and a rule change did it in.
Sailed with BP and his dad on their Cal3-30, then various other stuff, Billy sailed with us on Duck Soup. Lost touch when he went to Hawaii with DC .
I see he's racing a M242 in MdR. Sailed a few times with Ed, fun guy to sail with and super talented

luckystrike
10-25-2012, 08:12 PM
Hi Everybody,

Iam following this thread for a while and today i scanned a few old Photos of one of my former boats, the quarter tonner "The Lucky Strike", ex "Tess", ex "Quart". "Quart" was the original name I think. Or better to say, it was the last name I could read when I sanded the boat for painting ... :D

She is one of the two Waarschip Prototype Quartertonners built in 1972/'73 by designer K.T. Kremer and the Waarschip Boatyard in the Netherlands for two german owners. Both boats sailed at Weymouth 1973. The hull is the standard shell of the Production Waarschip 725, but all plywood one size down (8mm in the upper planks, 10mm in the bottom). Everything else was heavily modified. Data: LOA 7,25m BOA, 2,5m, Draft, 1,55m, Wheight 1100kg, G1 ~20m², Main ~9m², Spi ~ 45m².

Her great race record was in 1974, after further modifications at the rudder, when she did exeptionally well in the Quarter Ton Cup in Sweden. The pre-owner told me she was world champion, but I think this is not correct. I think she were third and the result list of the french site is wrong

http://www.histoiredeshalfs.com/Quarter%20Tonner/Quarter%20R%E9sultats.htm

"Timschal" is listed here as third, but Timschal is a much more modern boat with an open cockpit and appered in 1979. Who knows, if anybody has better results or information, let me know.

I was her third or fourth owner, and sailed "lucky" from 1988 to 1996. We won many local races and had a lot of fun with her. Impossible today for a qurter tonner, she was an excellent singlehander, due to her large stability.

Here are some photos.

75535 75536

75537

Paul B
10-25-2012, 08:49 PM
I think she were third and the result list of the french site is wrong

http://www.histoiredeshalfs.com/Quarter%20Tonner/Quarter%20R%E9sultats.htm

"Timschal" is listed here as third, but Timschal is a much more modern boat with an open cockpit and appered in 1979. Who knows, if anybody has better results or information, let me know.


Timschal was indeed third that year, based on the report written by Jack Knights published in SAIL magazine a couple of months after the regatta.

salkbj
10-29-2012, 05:33 PM
Timschal was indeed third that year, based on the report written by Jack Knights published in SAIL magazine a couple of months after the regatta.

There has actually been at least 3 Timschals. The first was a flush deck race version of the Delanta, an early Dehler production yacht.
Timschal(1), design van de Stadt, came 3rd at QTC73 and QTC74, fading slightly at the QTC75 finishing 7th.
For 1976 a new Timschal(2) proto was built, also van de Stadt, not certain but probably a fore-runner to the Oceaan 24. She finished 12th at the Corpus Cristi QTC76 after a dns in the first race failing the motor test :-) She also took part in the QTC77 but don't know placing (not very good).
1979 George Nissen designed his first IOR yacht. That would be the third Timschal and to downplay his first design attempt she was namned Timschal Schwamdrüber(3). She finished 19th at the QTC79.

Richard 4073
10-30-2012, 01:24 AM
I like the look of that Nissen Timshal boat.

Contributors and readers to this site might enjoy some of the articles on my new-ish blog site (see signature below), it covers a mix of sailing events in NZ and short feature articles/photos on various IOR boats. There's a lot to go and I've been side tracked by a few races recently, but the latest feature is on Terrorist, picking up on some of the recent photos posted here of her restoration.

Paul B
10-30-2012, 07:58 PM
I like the look of that Nissen Timshal boat.


I would think you would. It almost looks like a direct descendent of the 2nd gen Whiting QTs that we had here in California.

What was it Laurie Davidson called them, connect-the-dots designs? The designers like Whiting (and in this case Nissen) would draw the measurement points and then fit the hull lines in between. Made for some bulging, distorted looking things.

Of course there was some skill involved, since there were a lot of people who tried to connect-the-dots and had no success.

sean9c
10-30-2012, 09:53 PM
There has actually been at least 3 Timschals. The first was a flush deck race version of the Delanta, an early Dehler production yacht.
Timschal(1), design van de Stadt, came 3rd at QTC73 and QTC74, fading slightly at the QTC75 finishing 7th.
For 1976 a new Timschal(2) proto was built, also van de Stadt, not certain but probably a fore-runner to the Oceaan 24. She finished 12th at the Corpus Cristi QTC76 after a dns in the first race failing the motor test :-) She also took part in the QTC77 but don't know placing (not very good).
1979 George Nissen designed his first IOR yacht. That would be the third Timschal and to downplay his first design attempt she was namned Timschal Schwamdrüber(3). She finished 19th at the QTC79.

I remember the 2nd Timschal from CC, it had the propeller at the bottom of the keel. I think it was hydraulic drive with little motor cast into the keel. I think there was a prop depth rule they were trying to manipulate. Would hardly move under power, they'd be out there motor screaming, barely moving. Instead of sailing before the regatta they spent all their time working on the engine and doing speed runs, seems to me they did miss the first race. They finally got the engine tweaked enough to make enough power to pass, rumour was it was on alcohol. Also had black decks in TX in the summertime, heard that they were hard to sit/walk on.
Seemed like sort of a Farr 45d south sort of hull shape, but heavier so it had more sail

Richard 4073
11-01-2012, 04:34 AM
I would think you would. It almost looks like a direct descendent of the 2nd gen Whiting QTs that we had here in California.

What was it Laurie Davidson called them, connect-the-dots designs? The designers like Whiting (and in this case Nissen) would draw the measurement points and then fit the hull lines in between. Made for some bulging, distorted looking things.

Of course there was some skill involved, since there were a lot of people who tried to connect-the-dots and had no success.

I guess it was more the overall look of it that appealed, the classic long transom, broad stern and fine bow, I didn't discern too much shape distortion from that photo but I'm not too familiar with Nissen designs.

The discussion by sean9c re the propellor/engine issues with Timschal are interesting. With some of the bigger heavier boats there were some efforts to get a shaft drive extension (or something like that) down into the keel to maximise the prop depth for the EPF measurement. As best I can figure the rule did seem to even out the relative costs and benefits of various prop and shaft installations but there was probably a lot of optimisation going on in this area as much as any other.

I think too that there were often a few hasty engine modifications at various regattas while crews tried to get their motors to achieve a speed under power equivalent to the square of the L measurement (or thereabouts? - PaulB?). Certainly Candu II came close to not qualifying for the Half Ton Cup in Trieste with an outboard that took a bit of tuning, they passed the test in the end by just .2kn.

salkbj
11-01-2012, 08:17 AM
Hi Everybody,

Iam following this thread for a while and today i scanned a few old Photos of one of my former boats, the quarter tonner "The Lucky Strike", ex "Tess", ex "Quart". "Quart" was the original name I think. Or better to say, it was the last name I could read when I sanded the boat for painting ... :D

She is one of the two Waarschip Prototype Quartertonners built in 1972/'73 by designer K.T. Kremer and the Waarschip Boatyard in the Netherlands for two german owners. Both boats sailed at Weymouth 1973....

There were four Waarschips participating at the QTC73 in Weymouth.
Three sailed under British flag, Waart (10th, she would reappear under Dutch flag at the QTC75 ), Golliwoog (23rd) and Last Tango (30th).
In addition Kremer himself was sailing Waarschip to a 19th place. He had previously participated at QTC69 placing second to the original steel hulled Listang, not the grp Listang II which after finishing 5th at the QTC70 was to be re-rigged and re-measured as a 1/2-tonner finishing 3rd at the HTC70, sailed by one Rodney Pattison.
There were no German boats participating besides Timschal(1).

A German Waarschip participated at the QTC71, Go Go, GER 228, Knut Saalman, finishing 24/30.
Should your info about the two German customized boats be relevant for QTC74, they did not for certain finish top 15. QTC72 had no German participation.

sean9c
11-01-2012, 12:55 PM
I guess it was more the overall look of it that appealed, the classic long transom, broad stern and fine bow, I didn't discern too much shape distortion from that photo but I'm not too familiar with Nissen designs.

The discussion by sean9c re the propellor/engine issues with Timschal are interesting. With some of the bigger heavier boats there were some efforts to get a shaft drive extension (or something like that) down into the keel to maximise the prop depth for the EPF measurement. As best I can figure the rule did seem to even out the relative costs and benefits of various prop and shaft installations but there was probably a lot of optimisation going on in this area as much as any other.

I think too that there were often a few hasty engine modifications at various regattas while crews tried to get their motors to achieve a speed under power equivalent to the square of the L measurement (or thereabouts? - PaulB?). Certainly Candu II came close to not qualifying for the Half Ton Cup in Trieste with an outboard that took a bit of tuning, they passed the test in the end by just .2kn.

Also interesting that in '76 MB had a giant outboard, they really had to wrestle it out of the boat. The thing flew under power

luckystrike
11-01-2012, 05:55 PM
Should your info about the two German customized boats be relevant for QTC74, they did not for certain finish top 15. QTC72 had no German participation.

Many Thanks for your Infos. It seems that the glory of the boat they told to me was a product of alcohol and the fog of history. Nevertheless, it was a very fine and fast boat. I miss her!

Michel

siler
11-08-2012, 03:25 PM
Hello, I own an Ecume de Mer 1/4 tonner in Holland and 'found' 70 boats/owners over here. We are now the EdM club Holland ;-) Some time ago I read that EdM 'Dark Star' won the North American 1/4 Ton Cup in the seventies. Via www.sailinganarchy.com I got in contact with the owner Ben Hall (of Hall Spars) who send me some pictures. Another Anarchist send me an article about the Cup and the winning boat 'Dark Star', very interesting!

Next year we are going to organize the first Dutch Quarter Ton Cup in Holland. We also made a page on Facebook, search for Dutch Quarter Ton Cup

Good wind,
hylke (dM 'Pura Vida')

CRM
11-08-2012, 04:10 PM
Oh yes the 1/4 tonner with forward swept spreaders !;)

Paul B
11-08-2012, 07:16 PM
Oh yes the 1/4 tonner with forward swept spreaders !;)

Eric was (and is) a really sharp guy. However, this idea wasn't one of his best. I guess it worked well enough to win on this boat, but was then abandoned.

RCundiff
11-18-2012, 04:59 AM
Paul B and others .... It is time to get an introductory RC Sailboat. Looking for advice on the best production @ minimal cost, as I want to purchase 5 to get something going on our lake. Considering the Vela.
Roy Cundiff, Corsicana TX

Paul B
11-19-2012, 12:16 AM
Paul B and others .... It is time to get an introductory RC Sailboat. Looking for advice on the best production @ minimal cost, as I want to purchase 5 to get something going on our lake. Considering the Vela.
Roy Cundiff, Corsicana TX

The ABYC guys have been using Nirvava IIs. I think they cost about $200.00 all up.

http://www.fleetracing.net/index.cfm?fleet_id=19

jaluka1
12-04-2012, 06:36 AM
Paul B

Do you have any of the drawings of High Roler or any idea where i could get them as i have recently purchased High Roler an want to make some modifications. the drawings or any plans would make the task so much easier . Have e-mailed dennis Connor and have had no luck so far then found your quote hopefully you could point me in the right direction much appreciated Hadyn..

Paul B
12-04-2012, 02:13 PM
Paul B

Do you have any of the drawings of High Roler or any idea where i could get them as i have recently purchased High Roler an want to make some modifications. the drawings or any plans would make the task so much easier . Have e-mailed dennis Connor and have had no luck so far then found your quote hopefully you could point me in the right direction much appreciated Hadyn..

Which Roler do you have? There was the Peterson, the Holland, the Nelson, perhaps others?

I would suggest contacting the designer.

jaluka1
12-05-2012, 02:55 AM
76832

jaluka1
12-05-2012, 03:08 AM
Paul B
Thank you for quick response she is a peterson 46 Built by carl echenlob ( not sure of the spelling) for Dennis Connor to race the admerials cup in 1977-8 not too much more info cheers Hadyn attached photo above
)

Paul B
12-05-2012, 02:19 PM
Paul B
Thank you for quick response she is a peterson 46 Built by carl echenlob ( not sure of the spelling) for Dennis Connor to race the admerials cup in 1977-8 not too much more info cheers Hadyn attached photo above
)

Yes, that is the Peterson 46. DC did sail on her at the '77 SORC where they won the A Class in the "new boat division". However, politics led the selection committee to choose the Chance 46 Bay Bea for that slot at the AC. By fall 1978 it had been donated to the USC Sailing Team and I got to sail on it.

It was built by Carl Eichenlaub. Carl still has a small operation of Eichenlaub Marine in San Diego. You can find the contact info on the internet. Carl might be able to answer your questions. I did hear last week that he wasn't doing too well at the moment.

Doug would still have the original drawings. If you can get hold of him maybe he would burn copies for you. I traded e-mails with him a few days ago, but I don't think I should give his contact info out to anyone. I know you can find him quite often at the SDYC bar, having lunch or informal meetings with people.

CT249
12-05-2012, 07:42 PM
There's some background info on High Roler in "No Excuse to Lose", DC's first autobiography (that is, NOT "Comeback" which was written late '80s).

Her sistership Battlestar, ex Superstar, is in Western Australia but has had a horrible deckhouse fitted.

salkbj
12-06-2012, 06:54 AM
Her sistership Battlestar, ex Superstar, is in Western Australia but has had a horrible deckhouse fitted.

Superstar and also the second Williwaw were based on the first High Roler.
Williwaw(2) won SORC78, class B, also with DC helming and were already for 79 replaced by Williwaw(3), 45', yet again class B winner with DC.
Williwaw(2) was acquired by Alan Bond, renamed Apollo IV, and may also be somewhere in Australia!?
There was a second Peterson 44' High Roler built for SORC79 before the Holland and Nelson boats.

Paul B
12-06-2012, 03:55 PM
Superstar and also the second Williwaw were based on the first High Roler.
Williwaw(2) won SORC78, class B, also with DC helming and were already for 79 replaced by Williwaw(3), 45', yet again class B winner with DC.
Williwaw(2) was acquired by Alan Bond, renamed Apollo IV, and may also be somewhere in Australia!?


The racing yacht design business is sure a funny one.

After Peterson's designs won that "46 Footer Class" at the circuit 3 years running not one client came to him for a boat of that size for 1980. I wonder what people's mindsets were in making those sorts of decisions.

So Peterson had to dominate the next class down with the overall winner (Acadia, Serendipity 43) winning the class, and the 3rd place overall boat (Forte, "big dinghy" 41 footer) finishing 2nd in the class.

Forte was the top scoring fractionally rigged boat that year.

I was in San Diego prior to the SORC to sail in the Catalina 27 Nationals. One day we were sailing out to the start area when we saw this boat with a giant mainsail coming out behind us. As they blew by us I could not believe what a wonderful looking boat it was. The rig looked enormous. I guess they were doing their shakedown prior to shipping to FLA.

Of course now the rig would look ridiculously small compared to many raceboats, and even racer/cruisers. But in that era the thing was amazing.

salkbj
12-06-2012, 04:38 PM
After Peterson's designs won that "46 Footer Class" at the circuit 3 years running not one client came to him for a boat of that size for 1980.

Of course Sinett and DC were back as class B winners 1981 with the Peterson 48' Williwaw(4) after the boat had won the Bermuda in 1980, although she might not be considered a "46 footer" but rather a "50".

Magic Eliza, Tina I Punkt(3) and Ragamuffin(4) showed mediocre results in Europe 1979 and maybe there were higher expectations as Magic Eliza and Tina I Punkt(3) had the new Peterson lines (eg broader stern) from the smaller but exceptional 2 tonners Yena(2) and Dida Quinta.

Paul B
12-06-2012, 05:12 PM
Of course Sinett and DC were back as class B winners 1981 with the Peterson 48' Williwaw(4) after the boat had won the Bermuda in 1980, although she might not be considered a "46 footer" but rather a "50".


Right, Seymore did not build a Williwaw for '80, but you would think someone would have thought, "Gee, Peterson's designs have been dominating this size for the past 3 years, maybe I should get his latest." But no one did.

The Williwaw 48 footer was a "small" 48 footer. It was put into semi-custom production by Dennis Choate here in SoCal, and was the dominant "Class A" IOR design for about 3 years.

The even wider-sterned Forte/High Noon/Dust 'Em had some success. I prefer the look of these wider-sterned types, but you can't argue with the scorecard.

For rating and all around performance the Dida/Yena/Serendipity shape seemed to be better. The Design 77/Serendipity 43 was without a doubt the most successful single design of the IOR era. SORC Overall wins 3 times (plus class wins '80 through '84), Transpac Class wins, Big Boat Series, LBRW, Chi-Mac Overall, Sardinia Cup, Admiral's Cup, and on, and on, and on...

Then Peterson tried some boats that were actually narrower (Secret Love 45 footer, Bullfrog 55 footer) that were very, very fast.

So there were more ways than one to skin the IOR cat.

Richard 4073
12-06-2012, 07:05 PM
Doug would still have the original drawings. If you can get hold of him maybe he would burn copies for you. I traded e-mails with him a few days ago, but I don't think I should give his contact info out to anyone. I know you can find him quite often at the SDYC bar, having lunch or informal meetings with people.

Hi Paul, that is great that you have contact with Doug Peterson. I have been in touch with a keen IOR historian in France (Chorus) who is putting together a stylised profile drawing of B195, but we're not sure of the centreboard shape or profile (before they changed it for the '78 Clipper Cup), and also wondering if Doug might still have the lines drawings. If you don't mind could you send me your email details to mine (rich7140@hotmail.com) and perhaps you could pass on a drawing to Doug? cheers

Paul B
12-06-2012, 07:29 PM
Hi Paul, that is great that you have contact with Doug Peterson. I have been in touch with a keen IOR historian in France (Chorus) who is putting together a stylised profile drawing of B195, but we're not sure of the centreboard shape or profile (before they changed it for the '78 Clipper Cup), and also wondering if Doug might still have the lines drawings. If you don't mind could you send me your email details to mine (rich7140@hotmail.com) and perhaps you could pass on a drawing to Doug? cheers

I'm sure Doug has the drawings. Last I heard he still had the front 8 feet or so of B195 in his yard. It was cut off and hauled home after the boat burned at the SDYC dock.

Here is a photo of my half model of B195 for reference. This model was built by Tom Stephenson who sailed the boat. Tom is also a master model maker and is responsible for all the Hobart Winner models at the CYCA, so the details should be somewhat correct. Maybe Tom would have the drawings for you.

I'll send you my e-mail address. I can forward whatever to Doug. Whether he responds or not can be hit or miss.

CT249
12-06-2012, 07:53 PM
I was just a kid reading mags at this time, but I seem to recall that Jack Knights wrote that there were two 46' Williwaws, both to the same "pintail" design as HR and SS, but with the second boat more high tech in construction. It's possible that the first boat I'm recalling was HR.

The second one, which went on to become Apollo IV, went to the UK for the '79 Admiral's Cup and sail for Singapore IIRC. She then became Nick Nack II, did OK in England, may have done an Onion Patch for the UK team, and I think was still IRC rated a couple of years ago.

I was drooling over Superstar one day as a 16 year old when Syd Fischer chartered her for the Hobart (DNF). Syd invited me out so I got to do a social inshore race on her. I can recall having the brace in one hand and the sheet in the other and getting rapidly wider, as that was a lot of load for a not-so-big teen. I also raced her years later as Battlestar, when she was not going well.... and kept up a record of sailing with Syd once every 25 years or so on another Rags.

Paul B
12-06-2012, 08:01 PM
I was just a kid reading mags at this time, but I seem to recall that Jack Knights wrote that there were two 46' Williwaws, both to the same "pintail" design as HR and SS, but with the second boat more high tech in construction. It's possible that the first boat I'm recalling was HR.


High Roler and Williwaw (#2, the 46) were the same design. They were built a few months apart. Williwaw was a "higher tech" version, it was written, so your recollection is correct. The next Williwaw (#3) was a different design.

IIRC Superstar was slightly stretched, to 47' rather than 46. Probably an inch at each station spacing. I believe she was the top scoring boat at the AC Trials there in Oz.

SukiSolo
12-07-2012, 04:10 AM
Hi guys
In the late 70's I was fortunate to have raced aboard Genie sister ship to 45° South which won the 1/4 ton cup in 75. She was a great boat to sail just like a big dinghy. As I learnt to sail in Nat 12 and Merlin Rockets it felt very familiar. The fractional rig worked brilliantly and she would do 6.25 Kn upwind with a good suit of sails. Of course she planed offwind sweetly too with no great nosediving tendency as the stern 'dynamic buoyancy' was not at all extreme.

To give an idea of her performance, on a Cowes Cherbourg race she was second boat physically around the Cherbourg mark. This despite starting in Class V well behind the Class 1 and 2 boats. She also managed the passage from Lymington to Milford Haven in less than 24 hours - still a very very good time for any modern yacht.

She was owned by the late Graham Bruton who used to sail Merlins at Ranelagh SC (Putney). Also she was built very well in a conventional glass layup. When surveyed in about 76 only half a dozen minor air holes were found in her hull. Do not know where she is now. The Norlins to a later rule outclassed her eventually but until the rule change she was still very quick.

The Farr 1/2 tonners were not as good and a Britton Chance design 'Great Express' No K555 was a bit of a dog as it pitched too much. She was a 32'
half tonner and I well remember losing the mast at around 4.30am off the Needles..... lovely stuff rod rigging...

salkbj
12-07-2012, 06:07 AM
...and a Britton Chance design 'Great Express' No K555 was a bit of a dog as it pitched too much. She was a 32'
half tonner and I well remember losing the mast at around 4.30am off the Needles..... lovely stuff rod rigging...

The Great Express ended up in Norway and participated in the HTC80. She managed a 5th out of 46 at the British HTC78 trials but didn't perform either at HTC78 nor HTC80. 1982 she was modified in hope of making it to the HTC83 in Norway, to no avail. She was for sale earlier this year under the threat of being scraped.

salkbj
12-07-2012, 06:20 AM
The Farr 1/2 tonners were not as good.....

You are referring to Farther Bruin (veneer,77), or?

SukiSolo
12-07-2012, 06:51 AM
Thanks for the heads up on the 'Great Express'. I only sailed on her doing a Cowes - St Malo race and it was on the return that the mast went.She had an experimental 3 spreader one which was lighter than the previous 2 spreader version. That is what we found out later having cleared up the mess......flat 2nd battery and the other had driven the nav lights etc. Bump started engine eventually. She was doing OK a couple of knots over the tide with bare hull and fortunately the tide was going W - E where we wanted to go. With one guy hanging over the stern rail (green around gills) one steering it took quite a bit of strength to get the rig/mast/sails etc on deck. A junior hacksaw was our best friend. Fortunately the mast did not puncture the hull.
4 on board at the time.

There was something wrong in the shape, probably to get around a rule, and she would have needed fairly serious remodelling underwater to get her to work properly. In no waves she was quite quick. We had her over 10 Knots surfing mid channel on a beam/broad reach.

The only Farr 1/2 tonners we raced against in Genie were a cold moulded one and a cream one. We could beat them on the water almost all the time especially in light or heavy air. Can't remember their numbers, quite pretty though.

One good thing about the 'Great Express' - she taught me that cold moulded boats have very little condensation compared to any other material!. She was quite well built but I think you'd have to change that shape to get something nice. Genie was so easy to steer by comparison and the softer fractional rig so easy to control (no poxy runners) feedback was direct and
sweet. Exactly as any well set up and well natured shape should be.

salkbj
12-07-2012, 07:35 AM
Right, Seymore did not build a Williwaw for '80, but you would think someone would have thought, "Gee, Peterson's designs have been dominating this size for the past 3 years, maybe I should get his latest." But no one did.

Was it not Williwaw(4), the 48 footer, that won the 1980 Bermuda Race, with Tom Blackaller?
Williwaw(3) was sold to a Greek and participated in the 1980 Sardinia Cup under the name Greek Machine!?

...and, Williwaw(4) had her rating uped 1 feet after SORC81 removing her from the class B top spot and ended(?) Sinett's engagement in the sport.

The Williwaw 48 footer was a "small" 48 footer. It was put into semi-custom production by Dennis Choate here in SoCal, and was the dominant "Class A" IOR design for about 3 years.

The Choate boats would be Annabelle Lee, Aleta and Ghost, or?

Paul B
12-07-2012, 01:50 PM
Was it not Williwaw(4), the 48 footer, that won the 1980 Bermuda Race, with Tom Blackaller?
Williwaw(3) was sold to a Greek and participated in the 1980 Sardinia Cup under the name Greek Machine!?

Yes, I believe (4) did win Bermuda. It had been finished and sailed extensively the year before going to the SORC. This wasn't the normal way, as boats were often still being screwed together days before the first race.

I seem to recall (3) going to Germany, but I would have to go back and look some things up to try to know for sure.


...and, Williwaw(4) had her rating uped 1 feet after SORC81 removing her from the class B top spot and ended(?) Sinett's engagement in the sport.

Yes, the 48 is the boat that had the rating issue. There was something very fishy though, since the claim was the DSPL was off by 1500 lbs on the certificate compared to the freeboards taken on the re-measure. The claim was that Harvey (the boat nanny) had used a hose and filled the boat with the excess water. But if you calculate 1500 lbs of Salty H20 and consider these boats had no bilge sump, why would the measurer not see all this water sloshing over the floorboards?


The Choate boats would be Annabelle Lee, Aleta and Ghost, or?

The Choate 48s included Brisa, Annabelle Lee, Amante, Elusive, etc.

Aleta and Ghost were 46 footers of a different design.

salkbj
12-07-2012, 03:02 PM
The only Farr 1/2 tonners we raced against in Genie were a cold moulded one and a cream one. We could beat them on the water almost all the time especially in light or heavy air. Can't remember their numbers, quite pretty though.

Farther Bruin, built at Gatehouse Yachts, most likely design #54, had originally clear coated wood top sides and cream deck/sheer. Was there a sister boat?

salkbj
12-07-2012, 04:04 PM
I seem to recall (3) going to Germany, but I would have to go back and look some things up to try to know for sure.
Williwaw(3)->The Greek Machine, for sure. The point I was trying to make, there was one(1) 1980 commission ;-)

Paul B
12-07-2012, 04:49 PM
Williwaw(3)->The Greek Machine, for sure. The point I was trying to make, there was one(1) 1980 commission ;-)

Understood.

But the point I was trying to make was there was no commission in that size for the Circuit that year. Here in the USA in those days the SORC was THE regatta to win. It was the opportunity for rich guys to unzip and see who had the most...

There were plenty of commissions for the Peterson office that year. That was in the heyday of his IOR domination. There were commissions in other sizes for the Circuit, and many others for clients who weren't doing the SORC.

Maybe some of the potential customers figured Seymore would be back at the Circuit, knew they were not going to beat that well-oiled machine with a similar boat, so went elsewhere hoping for a breakthrough that would deliver the win?

Paul B
12-07-2012, 04:52 PM
The only Farr 1/2 tonners we raced against in Genie were a cold moulded one and a cream one. We could beat them on the water almost all the time especially in light or heavy air. Can't remember their numbers, quite pretty though.


If you were consistently beating the Farr HTs boat-for-boat with a 727 then the people sailing the HTs were the worst sailors on the face of the earth.

SukiSolo
12-08-2012, 04:03 AM
I remember the cold moulded/off white boat so it must be Father Bruin. There was definitely another one but it could have been a 'visitor' - not sure where the 1/2 ton Worlds/events were. Sure it was a lighter off white.
As for beating them, in a drifter along the IOW shore no contest. Force 6+ offwind withe kite up still no contest. They were much better in the middle conditions and were quite sea kindly. Seemed too much wetted surface for light and not quite enough power for more breeze. Probably didn't sail directly against them enough.

There were pleny of Robber, E boats, GK24's etc to worry about in Class V but it was not unusual to graduate through the classes if you were quick and had good tactics. I always thought the 1/4 tonners were 747's so thanks to this Forum I know they were 727's. I also thought the 727 were the half tonners.

Nearly did the Fastnet in 79 in Genie but the organisers decided that 24' was too small..........might have been interesting!

siler
12-10-2012, 04:49 AM
Hello, i heard a Mexican team entered the QTC 1978 and/or 1979 with a by Jim Lensveld modified (open transom) Manzanita 25. The boat is getting a lot of TLC in the Netherlands at the moment, but does anyone know something about this boat? Thanks, Hylke (Ecume de Mer 1/4 tonner 'Pura Vida')

Note: it is probably the 'Mazatlan', anyone any idea?

salkbj
12-10-2012, 07:24 AM
Hello, i heard a Mexican team entered the QTC 1978 and/or 1979....

....it is probably the 'Mazatlan', anyone any idea?

Mexicans placed 45/54 at the QTC79 with Mazatlan! That's all I know.

CT249
12-10-2012, 06:15 PM
The Farr 727s and 920s used to race each other in Australia a fair bit, and there was never a contest between properly-sailed boats on the water. After all, the 727 was basically designed 3 years earlier, was over 5' shorter, and was designed to a class that had to rate about 8% slower.

siler
12-15-2012, 05:25 AM
Thanks SALKBJ!

Does anyone know this 1/4 ton boat? Built in 1994 and sailing in the Netherlands now. The owner has no history....

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o135/hylkenson/Afbeelding183_zpsf40bd41f.jpg

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o135/hylkenson/Afbeelding180_zpsd051c481.jpg

Paul B
12-19-2012, 08:58 PM
Scuttlebutt tonight has reported Peter Norlin has passed away.

He was quite a successful designer in the IOR Ton classes in the '70s and early 80s, and did great 6 meter designs.

He didn't seem to get the press and accolades of some of his contemporaries, possibly due to geography.

Crag Cay
12-20-2012, 03:35 AM
He'll be sadly missed in the 2.4M class as well.
So long Peter.

DrummerMan
01-20-2013, 11:46 PM
Read your thread with interest. I'm the current owner of the Peterson 23 - originally named 'Great White' - that was at some point re-named Time Out. I bought the boat to restore and sail on Okanagan Lake but business required a move to Vancouver Island and the restoration was put on hold. Even though I'd done a lot of work on the deck we [or really she] decided we needed a larger boat for the Gulf and San Juan Islands so we purchased a 37' Jesperson/Peterson sloop - cold molded mahogany over cedar. She's a lovely craft but needs a fair bit of attention so there's not enough time left for Great White and she needs a new home :-)

Hi Flyer
02-23-2013, 04:22 AM
I've just bought Hi Flyer- a Davidson 26 that first raced in the Italy 79 QT cup?
Have you guys got any facts on her?

Cheers

siler
02-24-2013, 04:52 AM
http://www.histoiredeshalfs.com/Quarter%20Tonner/Q%20Davidson.htm

Great site with lots of info!

dskira
02-24-2013, 04:32 PM
Scuttlebutt tonight has reported Peter Norlin has passed away.

He was quite a successful designer in the IOR Ton classes in the '70s and early 80s, and did great 6 meter designs.

He didn't seem to get the press and accolades of some of his contemporaries, possibly due to geography.

You are right. It is a sad news. I think, and correct me if I am wrong, he invented the concept of the 2.4M. for disable people.

Hi Flyer
02-26-2013, 06:42 PM
http://www.histoiredeshalfs.com/Quarter%20Tonner/Q%20Davidson.htm

Great site with lots of info!

Awesome link- thanks! :)

tullospaul
02-27-2013, 10:21 PM
Wow, that is a lot of work, though honestly I'm surprised it wasn't worse being an alloy raceboat that went unloved for a lot of years.
Certainly sounds like you're doing the prep, fairing the right way. From the deck pics it appears to be West 407, or microballoons anyway, I'm assuming in epoxy

terrorist updated pics as of 2/26/13

sean9c
02-28-2013, 12:40 AM
Wow, that's impressive. I'm guessing it's likely better looking than when it was new

terrorist updated pics as of 2/26/13

Paul B
02-28-2013, 01:12 PM
terrorist updated pics as of 2/26/13

The world needs more people like you.

Historic cars from motor racing are loved, restored, and sell for millions. Historic boats from yacht racing are neglected, cut up, and are nearly worthless in most cases. A very sad statement.

MF too
03-02-2013, 06:26 AM
I've just bought Hi Flyer- a Davidson 26 that first raced in the Italy 79 QT cup?
Have you guys got any facts on her?

Cheers

Owned and helmed by Neil Pryde with Helmer Pedersen as sailing master.
Sold after Italy to give way to a Fauroux design.

salkbj
03-02-2013, 09:30 AM
I've just bought Hi Flyer- a Davidson 26 that first raced in the Italy 79 QT cup?
Have you guys got any facts on her?

Cheers

Finished 21/54 at the QTC79. With Pryde Jr also in the crew.
Hi Flyer II was a Humphreys 1/2-tonner (Trapper 950 kevlar).

salkbj
03-20-2013, 12:33 PM
I found this thread yesterday and want to share with you a pic from a Paul Whiting´s quarter Ton, builded in laminated wood in 1977....

The German 1977(76?) Whiting "Muff" currently for sale in Italy.

79979

neris
03-22-2013, 08:27 AM
The German 1977(76?) Whiting "Muff" currently for sale in Italy.

79979
know which part of italy shes for sale in? I have a mini tion down in italy and would be interested in picking up another small boat to leave there or bring home. Some of the old tons down there can be picked up very reasonably and they dont seem to raced much either anymore

filip
05-17-2013, 03:33 AM
..maybe a little OT but..

"LOS ANGELES, ITA 8754" is still sailing in Trieste, Italy! :)

Was 4th in the 1979 quarter ton cup in San Remo.
It's always a great great boat, very fast, and so beautiful!!
Enjoy it!

http://imageshack.us/a/img689/7259/dy591582.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img208/4326/dz249432.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img18/8973/022phr.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img844/3006/26023021796084502817080.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img833/8893/dsc0161rv.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img51/3372/img8175z.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img208/2407/sdc10586y.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img11/2065/sdc12521n.jpg

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/94/socialw4.png

siler
05-17-2013, 03:48 AM
Great boat Filip, sistership of 'JOKER' of Dutchman Fred Imhoff I think.
Wish you could come over to the Dutch Quarter Ton Cup June 22 and 23 ;-)
We have 22 entries so far, think we will get 25 or even more!

Is that last picture part of a film? If so, where can I find it? Youtube?

Good wind with your boat,
Hylke

filip
05-17-2013, 04:27 AM
Thanks Hylke!!
Yes, the last picture is a screenshot of a video, but it isn't on youtube.
You can find on youtube 2 videos of Los Angeles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2dlYJbhmhk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iie2mzqo3I

The first one is of our 2012 cruise (we are 4 friends of 22-23 years, that in 2009 restored in a local shipyard this beautiful boat!), and the second video is of the last "Barcolana" (the most famous regatta in Trieste, with thousands of boats [http://www.barcolana.it/]) ..the other boats you can see in the video are all about 40 ft and there was about 2-3 knots of wind..how fast are we??:D:D

Coming to the North Europe to sail in a quarter ton cup is my dream, but it's a bit difficult for us to come so far!

neris
05-17-2013, 05:58 AM
Theres a sistership to Los Angeles in Dublin called Cri Cri. She was brought up from Italy a few years ago and had all the old IOR strings on her. Shes recently been modified over the winter. New rig with swept back spreaders, non overlapping jibs, new stern and I believe a new keel. Have some pictures which I hope will upload here.

(in the pics the boat in front and behind are 1/4s aswell. the front one is a newly arrived french boat called Cartoon and the boat behind is quest)

Coling
05-29-2013, 10:01 PM
jim youngs rocket 31 during the rebuild for jims grandson. I have lofted the boat from jims table of offsets in rhino, it needs a little ironing

Hey FNG,
do you still have the offsets for the rocket 31?
if so, can you email or PM me to discuss
doing some modelling on the potential of updating one of the Aussie ones and the lines would be useful if these can be shared.
Cheers
Coling

Gary Baigent
05-30-2013, 07:25 AM
Here's a copy of the original plan. I have the offsets somewhere (I think), will hunt them out.

Coling
05-30-2013, 08:36 AM
Gary Thanks for that. Much appreciated.
One of the things that confuses me is that these line drawings, and the ones posted a few years back that showed the cabin top, don't appear to gel with the boat having standing headroom. Rough measurements show only around 1600mm headroom.

Any ideas?

The other thing is that I keep seeing beams of 3700 or 3800 quoted in boats for sale, whereas the drawings indicate approx 3600 beam. Do you know which is correct ?

(Haven't put a tape measure over the boat yet.)

Cheers
Colin

siler
12-10-2013, 09:20 AM
This summer we organized the first Dutch Quarter Ton Cup for the many many (most production) 1/4 ton boats over here. The event was a huge success and in 2014 we will organize more events.

On Facebook we had a page for the Dutch 1/4 ton fleet, but since we got more visitors from abroad we changed the language to English and made it a more international page. Lots of pictures and info on www.facebook.com/kwarttonzeilers, please join!

Gary Baigent
12-11-2013, 03:01 PM
Gary Thanks for that. Much appreciated.
One of the things that confuses me is that these line drawings, and the ones posted a few years back that showed the cabin top, don't appear to gel with the boat having standing headroom. Rough measurements show only around 1600mm headroom.

Any ideas?

The other thing is that I keep seeing beams of 3700 or 3800 quoted in boats for sale, whereas the drawings indicate approx 3600 beam. Do you know which is correct ?

(Haven't put a tape measure over the boat yet.)

Cheers
Colin

Sorry for late reply.
Rocket 31 is: 9.45 LOA, 8.92 LWL, 3.78 BOA, 2.41 BWL, 59.26 SA.
R. Extreme is: 9.14 LOA, 8.52 LWL, 4.62 BOA, 2.41 BWL, 55.0 SA.

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