Malaysian needing advice

[Ryan Miri Magic]

Hi I'm a 17 year old Malaysian finsihing my last year of high school. I am a state sailor and have been sailing since I was 10 in both keelboat(30ft beneteaus, sydney 46) and dinghy(lasers,470s,etc.) classes. I am interested in pursueing a career in boat design or naval architecture in the future since I am hugely interested in sailboats and am keen in desigining and arts. After high school i will only have obtained my high school finals certificate (SPM) and so I plan to continue my studies to achieve my goals. So far I have figured out that i need to take an undergraduate course (ex:A-Levels) in order to study boat designing abroad since Malaysia doesnt provide such courses and my Malaysian high school finals cert arent very well recognised at most international universities. My question is I would like to know all the possible educational routes to a career in boat design and architecture (whether it be through an undergrad course or not)?Maybe even a foundation year or apprecenticeship?


I have already researched the AMC,UNSW and Newcastle university degrees regarding naval architecture and boat design. However these courses may be slightly pricey for me. Any additional information regarding the courses at the stated universities is greatly recieved.

All advice, opinions and information is welcome. :)

[Ad Hoc]

Hi Ryan

Funnily enough i have just returned from a biz trip to Malaysia!

It all depends on the level of education you want to achieve and whether you are more theory based or practical based. Since, sadly these days, with education it does at a price. You could opt for a HND/Diploma type, or the full blown Degree. However, some universities are not so good as others, as I'm sure you have found out already.

Also, do you want a university that teaches more pure "technical" or more "practical"...on top of this, some universities are influence by their local market, such as Strathclyde Uni - Offshore, or in some cases by their main funding partners. UCLA is very much influence by "traditional heavy engineering"

I would recommend, Newcastle Uni, also Southampton Uni. In Southampton there is also another Solent university, which was once a college, more practical based, is also very good. This may be cheaper?

Have you looked at Singapore and HK?

In Australia, Curtin Uni is also worth checking out. Maybe Stellenbosch Uni in South Africa too.

But, since your interests lay in smaller craft, i would recommend both uni's in Southampton, they include this field. I did my masters at Southampton Uni. Curtin may be a good choice too, as they are doing more courses in small naval architecture.

Doesn't answer your Q...but gives you food for thought.

[Landlubber]

Ryan,

Westlawn would be perfect for your application mate as you can study from home and previous experience is not a requirement.

[Ad Hoc]

Westlawn is ok for those that wish to "dabble" in naval architecture. But it is not a serious educational course if you wish to do more than just "some drawings and basic calculations" for yourself.

[Landlubber]

Ad Hoc,

And you know this to be correct???????

Many graduates of Westlawn have gone onto to some very good design and construction work, I think that you may be a bit surprised to find out the truth.

[Ryan Miri Magic]

Ad Hoc:
hope u enjoyed your trip! thanks for the advice :) do you hv any suggestions for sgpore or hk unis?..I never knew tht curtins did small boat design courses?!! my city has a branch of their university but unsuprisingly small boat design is not offered.But i will look into the australian campus.
How abt the job market for small boat architects?or just naval architecture in general? is it hard to find jobs? are u working in this field?

Landlubber:
thanks mate i'll go have a look at their website! would u know how long it takes to complete a course? cheers

[Ad Hoc]

Landlubber
Im not saying its bad. It is just not as good as a full-time 3~4year degree course. It cannot touch the depth of a full blown lectured full-time course in just 38 lessons! Horses for course really...an acid test is to see if the course is recognised to be a full member of RINA or SNAME and hence being a Chartered Engineering

Ryan
Ngee Ann Polytechnic in Singapore offers degree courses. I'm mistaken, i'm going on old info. There are no longer any recognised university marine engineering or naval architecture programmes available in Hong Kong, except for some postgraduate courses.

Jobs, as in any filed are hard to find. Yes, I am a naval architect, as i mentioned above, i did my masters at Southampton. It is a very rewarding job. It also has many disciplines too....something for everyone!

I would recommend finding a shipyard in Malaysia and asking them to fund your education. Having just returned from Malaysia, not one single yard has their own in-house naval architect. All design work is subcontracted. A few "older yard's" have one or two 'design staff', but not a proper design office. The Malaysian govt has identified the problem and want the Malaysian shipbuilding industry to grow. The only way it will grow is if the shipyards are able to control the design aspects and promote their own....so worth exploring and seeing if you can get some to assist you...if you can, then you could go anywhere.

[Ryan Miri Magic]

thanks ad hoc
i checked ngee ann and the nearest thing to naval architecture is a Diploma in Marine & Offshore Technology (MOT). ok thanks Hong Kong has a pretty high living expense anyway.
okay haha i have heard that it was a hard field to get into but there is an upthrust of boat building markets in europe. I'm not really fussed over pay as long as i can live suitably i'm fine.

Now thats a thought! Do u have any suggestions of shipyards? When u say yards do u mean yards for leisure yachts and craft?

[Ad Hoc]

There are many shipyards in Malaysia, just do a Google search.

However, you need to aim for one that specialises in smaller boats, rather than large boats. It would also be worth becoming a student member of RINA, it is cheap and you'll get access to loads of info too.

Oh i read recently that Ngee Ann has just started a full-time degree

[danial]

hi fellow malaysian, how about joining me in UniKL MIMET(Malaysian Institute of Marine Engineering Technology) in lumut perak. it is a 6 year old institute. You can enroll in diploma in ship design or the newly introduced degree in naval architecture and shipbuilding after A level. it is recognized and most of the graduates have no problem finding jobs. If you're a bumiputra, you can take loan from MARA.

[Ryan Miri Magic]

Ad Hoc: Ok I will do some research on the shipyards available..thanks for all the help and advice please tell me if u do find any additional info :)

Danial: Hi danial! Hmmm i've never heard of it before but it sounds promising. Is it an IPTA or IPTS? How many years is the degree program? Yes I am bumi so i can probably get a loan if needed.Do u have an estimation of the fees?

[Ryan Miri Magic]

Another question Ad Hoc..What if I were to take a Bachelor of Science (hons)(Architecture)? Would I be able to branch out into shipbuilding in the future?

[Ad Hoc]

Ryan
I'm not sure what you have been told, or understand, nor which field you want to branch into, but.....if you get a degree in naval architecture, from a reputable university, and become a full RINA member and also a chartered engineer, you can do anything in the field of ship building.
This is not to say you can't do any if you have none listed, you can. I have friends who are in Production managers position with little or no qualifications. But this took them many many years of hard work on the shop floor welding/fabricating and slowly rising up through the ranks. I trust their judgements without question too, because they have been there done that. BUT..if you wish to be in a position making decisions, and dictating design issues or a production manager etc, in a shorter time frame, then a degree makes you more technically qualified to make such decisions and as such you will achieve your goal quicker.

Whatever you decide, there is no substitute for working or being involved with a shipyard. There are far too many "designers" out there will little or no shipyard experience. As such their designs and decisions made are based purely on technical issues alone and sit behind a computer and discuss which software is better rather than what is really required by the design for the client. This may well suit them, but what is it 'we' are designing? Design and production go hand in hand and as such, you must always discuss your "objectives" with the guys making it!...to make it easier to build, cheaper to build and also so you know what capabilities the yard has. No point asking for a nuclear power plant if they only have wooden sticks and matches to light afire!

So, getting back to your question...if you want to get into shipbuilding, ie productions issues, more than ship design per se, then it is best to choose a degree that has a greater emphasis on production and engineering. However, any naval architecture degree will cover such issue. I strongly suggest that you contact shipyards and, if only to go in and have a look around, and see if it excites you. Also guys on the shop floor can teach you so much....never ignore them. Visiting a shipyard will be very informative for you...and probably help you decide where you would like to go.
But if you change your mind after you get into production...your degree will enable you to drift into design, or research or marine journalism etc etc.

Good luck ;)

[Landlubber]

#13 Well said, and very appropriate.

[danial]

it is an IPTS owned by MARA, the degree programe is 4 years... the fees is about RM4000-5000 per semester.. for more information, check www.unikl.edu.com

[MF2]

I'm unikl mimet student,sem 1 ..danial can i know u?

[danial]

i will be your super senior next sem... i am a screw up in maths.. hehe.. if you're taking math 2 next sem, i may be in ur class

[HOOKED.UP]

http://www.amc.edu.au/

Hope this helps. Not cheap.

After nearly 40 years as a boat builder I am still not qualified.

But I would love to be able to afford one of the courses on offer.


Paul

[Ad Hoc]

After 40 years Im sure you may well have a thing or two to teach them.!!!
Qulifications don't mean much if you keep making bad designs...

[Mark Bowdidge]

Ryan,
my advice is to do Westlawn. Being a graduate, I was immediatly snapped up by Tom Fexas Yacht Designs in the designing of Power boats ( luxury boat market) from 55ft and upwards. As far as RINA is concerned, yes they do accept and recoginize Westlawn. How do I know. Because I'm an Associate (ARINA).
My daughter went to AMC do to her Nav Arch degree. She left and switched over to Ocean Engineering. Why? Your not taught to draw or actually design. Just engineer. After seeing what I was achieving with Westlawn, she was so fustrated, that she changed degrees.
As far as 38 lessons are concerned, it takes approx 3-4 years to get through it.
Hope this helps out
Regards
Mark Bowdidge (ARINA)

[Frosty]

There are many shipyards in Malaysia, just do a Google search.H


Oh you mean Jahore? They antifoul bid stuff cheap.

There is the military yard at Lamut and thats about it.

Are you talking East Malaysia?

Yeah there is yards but they are fishing boat, railway line haul out stuff.

Theres one in Klang next to the yacht club.

They only build tugs N barges.

Ship yards or ship builders yards.

[Ad Hoc]

Mark

Yes, but being an AMRINA is very different different from being MRINA. It shows you have some understanding etc, but not enough to become a full member nor chartered. Not saying it is bad, just saying it is not "fully qualified"

Frosty
Just like anywhere, depend son the type of vessel you want and the quality. There are many shipyards, but if you want quality and small vessels for example...that is a different Q!

[Mark Bowdidge]

Ad Hoc,
THere are many graduates of Westlawn who are members and Fellows. Dave Gerr for example, a graduate of Westlawn is a Fellow. Can I make member. Yes. That's happening here is that your basing your assumptions on guesswork, not facts.
Mark

[Ad Hoc]

Mark

Maybe you seem to be unaware of the route to be come ARINA and MRINA.

For your ARINA the requirements are thus:

Persons who are primarily concerned with the application of proven engineering techniques to the solution of practical problems in the fields of naval architecture and maritime technology may apply to be elected as an Associate (ARINA)

Education: A person applying for election the as an Associate will be required to have completed a minimum 2-year course of study leading to the award of a diploma or certificate. However, persons without the required full formal academic qualification may offer experience in lieu of academic qualification and apply for election through the Mature Candidate Route.
Initial Professional Development (Training and Experience): Applicants should have four years' experience. Candidates will be required to submit a Professional Review Report, demonstrating that they have achieved the required level of professional competence, as defined for Members in the Professional Development Manual. Candidates offering experience in lieu of formal academic qualification and/or training will be required to submit an extended Professional Review Report, demonstrating that they have achieved the same level of professional competence

Whereas for MRINA

Persons who are primarily concerned with the progress of maritime technology through innovation, creativity and change, the development and use of new technologies, the use of advanced design and production methods, and the pioneering of new engineering services and management techniques in the field of naval architecture and maritime technology may apply be elected as a Member.

Education: A person applying for election as a Member will be required to have completed a minimum 4-year course of study leading to the award of a degree or diploma. However, persons without the required full formal academic qualification may offer experience in lieu of academic qualification and apply for election through the Mature Candidate Route.
Initial Professional Development (Training and Experience): Applicants should have undergone a period of 2 years of approved training or a sufficient period of experience in lieu of training, and have had not less than 2 years' responsible experience. Candidates will be required to submit a Professional Review Report, demonstrating that they have achieved the required level of professional competence, as defined for Members in the Professional Development Manual. Candidates offering experience in lieu of formal academic qualification and/or training will be required to submit an extended Professional Review Report, demonstrating that they have achieved the same level of professional competence.

For either class of membership, experience in lieu of formal academic qualifications will suffice. However, the experience must be at the right level and responsibility. Being a draughtsman for example, for 30 years would not qualify for full membership. But as a 'Companion'.

for more details see:
http://www.rina.org.uk/requirements.html

Those like D.Gerr (not heard of him?) you cite, must have been in a position of responisbility for a period of time that RINA felt suitable that was coupled with the diplomoa.

An ex-prof at my university had no formal qualifications but was a Fellow. Because he was one of the old "time-served" naval architects.

To become a full member with a correspondence course that is not a standrad Degree level, just take longer than otherwise...that is all.

[Mark Bowdidge]

ad hoc,
You've just confirmed my point. Westlawn students CAN become MRINA or ARINA and even Fellow. The reason I jumped into this post was your arguement and I quote:
"if the course is recognised to be a full member of RINA or SNAME and hence being a Chartered Engineering"
So the anwer is yes.
Am I aware of the process of becoming ARINA or MRINA?. If I was'nt aware, I wouldn't be ARINA, would I? On recieving my certification for ARINA, Trevor Blakley wrote in his letter to me, asking why I didn't apply for MRINA. I was qualifed enough. My response was that, I thought one had to work their way up the ladder. So, later this year, I'll re-apply for MRINA.
So, to sum it all up.
1/ Westlawn is recognised.
2/ Graduates of Westlawn can work their way up through RINA, the same as Uni students do, to become MRINA and higher.
3/ Westlawn is 4 years of study.

Quiet frankly, this arguement on a professional basis, is getting extremely petty, boring and serves no purpose but to provide entertainment for those watching this post. It's unprofessional and not warranted.

Mark

[Ad Hoc]

Mark

You seem to be so fired up about something, I'm not sure what, so much so that you are missing the point and cannot rationalise your argument. This is nothing to do with "scoring petty points" as you seem to think. You said:

"As far as RINA is concerned, yes they do accept and recoginize Westlawn. How do I know. Because I'm an Associate (ARINA)..."

Yes, they recognise Westlawn. But their recognition is not as a path to immediate MRINA status. It is via the ARINA route. In other words, further hands on responsible experience is required to attain MRINA status than would otherwise be if one went to a university and obtained a degree.


Since anyone, if in a position of responsibility for a certain period of time, in the field of naval architecture, can attain MRINA status, whether academically trained or not. I know post-Doc lecturers at University who have tried to become full members, but cannot. Because they do not posses the required breadth and depth of practical knowledge, ie they are just too academic.

Westlawn is a half-way house. It allows one to get on the path much more directly than if just working without any academic training. Whereas A degree from a university is a more direct route, ie takes less time, assuming that the person has a position of responsibility once graduated.

Because your assertion is that a diploma from Westlawn is academically the same as a degree from a university. Which it is not, it is a very good practical course which trains the student to hit the ground running in a small boat/yatch design office. Much more than a university. But the academic level is lower.

As I said:
"It shows you have some understanding etc, but not enough to become a full member nor chartered..."

That is often because a person working in a company may not be given the opportunity to be in a position of responsibility, owing the companies stance on ARINA members - or because there isn't any opportunity in the company -rather than someone who is on a direct path to MRINA from university.

[MF2]

dear Ryan , i'm from unikl mimet..you can take part of our university course such degree in naval arch ...i saw in my computer lab, they have maxsurf as application. This year, they rise the fees to rm7000 per semester but not too worry. Our education in the University is excellent and with the new dean ..u won't regret it .

[engine_afiq86]

Ryan,

Why don't U try to check at www.utm.my.
There is a course regarding Marine Technology. FYI, UTM is the pioneer in Marine Technology and the 1st ever University in Malaysia to have the programme... All the lecturers are graduated from Warwick,Newcastle.. even the ex student of UTM taking Marine Technology is one of the Board of Directors at IMAREST... The cost of study also is a lot more cheaper than IPTS...

FYI, im a student from UTM taking marine technology..if u are interested..try to email me..engine_afiq86@yahoo.com

[madnasa]

Hi,
I like you for your love of the sea. In case you want practical learning in between your studies do contact me. I am operating a boat design and construct company in Malaysia.(power boat) Currently we have 28ft, 40 ft and 53 ft. I have Japanese Naval arch with me, my partner (30 years experience). We have been providing ship design assistance/consultant to the shipyards in Malaysia

hope to hear from you.
nasa1509@yahoo.com

[madnasa]

Hi,
I like you for your love of the sea. In case you want practical learning in between your studies do contact me. I am operating a boat design and construct company in Malaysia.(power boat) Currently we have 28ft, 40 ft and 53 ft. I have Japanese Naval arch with me, my partner (30 years experience). We have been providing ship design assistance/consultant to the shipyards in Malaysia

hope to hear from you.
nasa1509@yahoo.com