Cat motorsailer where does the money go

[charlesakeem]

Okay for the past year and something i've been checking out researching and learning but one things that always confounds me is the, the hull is only 10 percent or less of the cost of the boat my question is what makes up the rest of the boat and how much do these things cost also is there no possible way for it to be done just as good for cheaper. I am a young guy who is pretty skilled has endless free time and free labor on his hands so i am curious to how to build a 32 to 40 ft cat while spending as little as possible.
After Rig Hull and Engine what else is there thats necessary

For the hull
So far i've settled on cedar strip construction i can get the cedar for cheap if i fell the tree, mill the wood, dry it and then cut it into suitable size myself.
the glass and epoxy i still havent found an outrageously clever and inexpensize way to get that. (doesnt seem smart to go cheap here)

Motors i was most likely going to use GM 6.5l or 6.2l these engines were used in the marine industry with just a lower compression ratio compared to the vehicle ones.

Rigging I was going to go for junk rig with a cheap durable cloth for the sail and a homemade mast.

All furniture shall be built and designed by me or friends
( in the modern minimalist style)

Paint I will have to throw it away and buy paint.

Nav equipment I am going to see what salvage i can get for gps the other stuff i have'nt thought of to much but i am looking.

Plumbing is going to be done by a friend who has a little experience and me.

Wiring i am leaving mostly up to a cousin who is a normal electrician and myself who just shows a suprising resistance to being electrocuted

What other things are there that are costing so much

[masalai]

Have a look at what the boat building suppliers offer the strip planks are shaped so the sides fit like rounded toungue & groove so the curve of the hull form matches without "V" gaps when glued (before fairing and glassing over)....

A wooden mast is not all that difficult to make with the appropriate advice on construction.

You DO NOT need such a bloody big engine - weight is a KILLER on sailing cats - - 32ft should get by with one but suggest 2 x 9.9hp high thrust 4 stroke second hand outboards (no longer made)

integrate the "furniture" into the engineering structural ridgidity components of the hull & cabin structure (HAVE IT PROFESSIONALLY DESIGNED - do not be a total dickhead and think you can design it yourself)....

keep all other furniture minimalist and LIGHT

USE ONLY marine quality fittings, paint, everything.... (that will hurt cause it is not cheap) - Dont use "salvaged" equipment - - Your dumbass life depends on it...

May I suggest building a canoe, if that succeeds try for a light weight dingy to use as your tender, then buy some plans and build a "warram" or some other boat design using marine ply as the base material, and then either paint it or glass it ?.... Got 6 years? Enjoy your challenges one at a time or pay lots to get it professionally built (or buy second hand - many boats are on the market, but HAVE IT PROFESSIONALLY SURVEYED before committing to buy....

The definition of a boat is "A hole in the water into which you continuously pour in lots of money" - - THAT IS THE TRUTH....

Good luck.

[boat fan]

G`day Charles...


Mas has given some pretty good advice here.

I think you need to be clear about what you want to use this boat for.

How many crew do you have available to sail the boat ?

These questions may seem irrelevant or trivial , but on the question of number of crew alone there is good reason to be clear;

If you have a fit crew of two or even three on board at all times , you can plan the boat and sail plan on simpler systems for example. Simple blocks etc.

A 40 foot single handed cat will need some mechanical advantage for sail handling .Even a junk rig for a 40 footer can be heavy to hoist .You may want a halyard winch.( Lots of battens etc .)

Even if junk rigged ( and it`s a good choice for low tech , low cost ) its a handful if you are on your own most of the time . Maybe a split rig like a junk schooner that breaks up the sail plan into smaller pieces.Again it comes down to how much muscle you have on board.Ideally you should be able to do everything required on your own , if need be.

If you want to sleep at night , invest in good , heavy anchors.
A cat of 40 ft or larger requires good heavy ground tackle , chain and anchors. Note I said ANCHORS ...you will need spares. You will need good rope. Good tested chain. All heavy stuff .

Again , if you have a crew it`s easier. You can get by with a relatively simple but robust manual windlass.

You can obtain good used equipment if you spend the time looking , and not buying just on price , or the first thing that comes along. Anchors can be bought used .Winches should be checked and fully serviced by someone that knows what they are doing. Sails you can make if you go the junk route.There are bargains to be had in used sails if you spend the time and make the effort.

Search out commercial fishing supply companies for no frills tough equipment.

Mas. gave you good advice about ditching the big heavy motors.Unless you build 70 - 100 ft you just don`t need ( or should fit ) a monster engine like that on a multihull.

Make a quick list of what you want to do with this boat .Post it here and you will probably get lots of good advice. Be realistic in your goals.

A wharram may get you most of what you want . IF on a tight budget , I would personally go with a WHARRAM LIKE boat , but with truncated dory type hulls to gain a little more displacement. Two boats come to mind here :

K designs PELICAN :

http://www.ikarus342000.com/peldec.jpg
http://www.ikarus342000.com/Peldraw1.gif

Or Mike Waller Coral sea catamarans :
http://http://www.wallerdesign.com.au/Photos/cs35j.jpg
http://www.wallerdesign.com.au/Photos/cs35a.jpg
http://www.wallerdesign.com.au/Graphics/cor35_c.gif

http://www.wallerdesign.com.au/

[boat fan]

I just noticed you mentioned plumbing....:D

Not much needed here , really. Use hand pumps : much simpler to install .
Much cheaper , and simpler and more reliable than 12 volt pumps etc.

Do away with through hull fittings entirely if you can .They can fail and sink the boat.
A good case for outboards.

Keep all tanks as low as possible.

[Fanie]

Hi Charles,

I'm in the starting stage of bulding a 10m cat. Building for building it in not ready yet so I'm collecting accessories in the meantime. The list is ENDLESS. I guess it's like building up a car, it just never gets finished ;)

Since you're a young guy (<100), if you can stick the patience out, do it right from the start. Boats are not that expensive for nothing, poor quality won't last and is dangerous... and you cannot get out and walk back, not with your current name :rolleyes:

He he... I like your's thinking big on the engines, but those are a bit overboard (pun). Don't worry, the engine size isn't a reflection on anything else :D

The definition of a boat is "A hole in the water into which you continuously pour in lots of money" - - THAT IS THE TRUTH....
Truth - I haven't started yet and I'm bancrupt already :D

[boat fan]

Truth - I haven't started yet and I'm bancrupt already :D

OOOOOOOOH YEAH !!!!!!!:D

[charlesakeem]

A 32 to 40 foot catamaran.
Motorsailer able to cruise at max fuel efficiency at 9-12knts (preferred 12)
Safe enough to survive a storm.
Simple enough that i can fix anything and everything on it.
2 heads preferred 1 head acceptable
Built in cedar strip Because i find cedar beautiful, i can get it myself and i have a strong distrust about plywood longevity.
6'3 headroom a must (I'm a tall guy.)
Cheap to build
Shower would be likeable but far from a necessity.
Must be a world cruiser. I like some of mike waller's designs but the curves and lines just scream rob this guy

My crew is legion For American and cruising outside the Caribbean I can gather as many as 8.
If i was strictly in the caribbean 3-5
As for me I'm a big guy i weigh in at 215 normal about 240 when in shape stand at around 6'3 still growing alittle.

As for resources i have the equipment of the local college to use CNC machines, routers and the minds and muscle of there students.

[masalai]

Gosh, you don't half want much for little - you do not need "heads" - arse over the stern rail and a bucket of sea water is quite adequate - if you are shy, tie a rope to the mast, put floaties on your upper arms, tie the other end of the tethered rope around your waist, do your business, wash yourself, then climb back on board....

As a beginner use marine ply on the above suggested designs (easy to repair and available nearly everywhere.... Plywood will outlive you if you keep up on maintenance.... shower in seawater using soap that will sud up in same (warm by putting in a black plastic bag or boil some water to knock off the chill) - - else swim around when you toilet yourself - scrub the boat bottom at the same time....

Loose some weight fatso, - - do you want gold plated plumbing, wiring and watermaker too - - - GET REAL - - - ON a budget? - - - seriously think what you want to do, - - or is it to "pose and pull chicks" by pretending to be rich - - wrong sort of crew there....

The Pelican & the waller would do very nicely..... Do some research and homework, think about whether you are dreaming or what?

[kengrome]

charlesakeem,

Your stated goals appear to be inconsistent with your list of features. If you really want to spend as little as possible -- instead of just making this claim then doing otherwise -- you will:

- Use the smallest engine that will push the boat at displacement speed.
- Use a porta-potty or a bucket and some sawdust instead of a head.
- Install NO plumbing pipes or fixtures inside the boat.
- Choose the shortest, smallest and simplest design you can find.
- Choose a design that does not require epoxy and glass.
- Scrounge for anything you can find that will save you money.

To save even more money you will forego the ICE-based propulsion system complately and just use the wind for your propulsion.

But if you're not really interested in building cheap, you can add all kinds of 'stuff' you want, and then you can watch the cost soar beyond your expectations ... and perhaps beyond your ability to pay for everything too.

By the way, there are lots of woods other than WRC that look nice and don't cost anywhere near as much. But this should not matter at this stage of the game because you have not selected a design yet, and the design will dictate the construction materials and methods.

[charlesakeem]

May someone give me a link for the cat that doesnt need glass or ply.
How much cost would i save by not having any plumbing at all.
It seems that using a car engine is much cheaper than getting even 9.9's

[charlesakeem]

I just really really really dont like ply in fact it borders on hatred of the stuff, besides ply isnt free for the cutting.

[boat fan]

May someone give me a link for the cat that doesnt need glass or ply.
How much cost would i save by not having any plumbing at all.
It seems that using a car engine is much cheaper than getting even 9.9's

No Charles its not cheaper. It`s not just the engine.
What about the rudder , steering , stuffing box , thrust bearings , shaft ,skeg ,prop, shaft log , cutlass bearing , engine mounts,water cooled exhaust manifold , water pump ,flame arrester .blah.... blah.......not to mention gearbox ........?


Instead , get 1 outboard and tank. ;)


There is a way to simplify and save money on a head , if you don`t want a porta potti .....

http://www.airheadtoilet.com/

[boat fan]

I just really really really dont like ply in fact it borders on hatred of the stuff, besides ply isnt free for the cutting.


Ply is great actually .If done right .The boat could last longer than you - IF you do it right - There are a lot of boats out there right now that are 30 + years old and have many , many years left in them. Thinking plywood cannot be durable is VERY out dated Charles ..........

http://http://www.wallerdesign.com.au/Photos/cs25g.jpg

Personal preference. Strip plank is not that cheap.Lots of glass ( inside AND out )...oh yes the FAIRING ...
Lovely job fairing the inside of two narrow hulls....;)

Still if that`s what you want I guess you should have it. Regardless of where you get the wood , it`s not cheap.

[kengrome]

How much cost would i save by not having any plumbing at all.Depends upon what you would have had if you had installed some plumbing ...

Previously you said you want two heads, not just one. Even one head will cost you thousands of dollars when you include the fresh water tanks, holding tanks, pumps, valves, faucets, marine toilet, basin, thru-hulls, etc. ... so my guess is that you'd save thousands by avoiding the installation of built-in plumbing and nearly everything that goes along with it.

[kengrome]

What about the rudder, steering, stuffing box, thrust bearings, shaft, skeg, prop, shaft log, cutlass bearing, engine mounts, water cooled exhaust manifold, water pump, flame arrester, gearbox ...Actually most large catamarans do not steer via their outboards, they generally lock these motors in position and steer with their existing steering systems, so "rudders" and "steering" are already available ... but pretty much everything else you mentioned is spot on ...

[boat fan]

May someone give me a link for the cat that doesnt need glass or ply.


Sorry Charles don`t know of any multihull plans myself....

You would have to look at traditional craft from polynesia maybe...
Ken may know of something ? I cannot advise you there.:confused:

If you go that route however , you are likely to increase weight , and you will certainly spend more time and money on maintaining your craft.

A case of save a little up front , pay in time and money later ...you must decide.

[boat fan]

Actually most large catamarans do not steer via their outboards, they generally lock these motors in position and steer with their existing steering systems, so "rudders" and "steering" are already available ... but pretty much everything else you mentioned is spot on ...

Yes , quite right Ken. Rudder and steering required either way.

[ancient kayaker]

I just really really really dont like ply in fact it borders on hatred of the stuff, besides ply isnt free for the cutting.

Building with ply is quick and relatively easy and can produce a great looking boat. We're talking marine ply here not the house stuff. Although it costs some it's cheaper than milled cedar. If you are prepared to cut the tree(s) and all the rest and have the equipment then the cedar is free. Just make sure it's the right kind ...

[boat fan]

Building with ply is quick and relatively easy and can produce a great looking boat. We're talking marine ply here not the house stuff. Although it costs some it's cheaper than milled cedar.......

http://www.wallerdesign.com.au/Photos/cs25g.jpg

http://www.wallerdesign.com.au/Photos/cs25f.jpg

Beautiful Boats ! Charles are you watching ....? :D

[charlesakeem]

beautiful under paint as far as I'm concerned, bulkhead sure, but my entire blasted hull i think not good sir

[boat fan]

beautiful under paint as far as I'm concerned, bulkhead sure, but my entire blasted hull i think not good sir



What are you talking about ." not good " ?

Whats " not good " about a sealed ply hull ??????

With epoxy its simply no longer an issue.

Like I said before there are a lot of boats out there...30 + years old and looking like new ..
And they will outlive you if they get maintained .

The reason a stripper hull in cedar can last is because of the epoxy and glass.Take that away and let the water in , then see how long your hull will last .Especially in the tropics.....

bah humbug indeed .......

[charlesakeem]

but my entire blasted hull i think not, good sir.
Truly thanks for all the advice it has given me much food for thought.
Also does anyone know about the suitability of using rv holding and fuel tanks in a boat.

[northerncat]

if you dont like ply build it out of 4mm alloy
sean

[charlesakeem]

twin 1989 300 hp evinrudes
I wonder what the effect would be to drop these babies in.
Or would the weight still be detrimental

[masalai]

What in the name of stupidity are you trying to achieve? - - - - and where are you planning to go (local rivers & small lakes - - or - - offshore and long distance cruising?) - - - define that, then we may be able to give some direction.... also how much building money and then running monet...

[charlesakeem]

"In the name of stupidity," thanks for that mas i'm thinking i found a new war cry.
But i am trying to achieve a boat with shallow draft headroom room for my height and a high average cruising speeds.
able to comfortably berth 4-6 people, 8-10 for short spaces of time (stuff em like sardines i say)
To be able to travel across oceans safely first.
currently can see 2grand a month coming in during tis retirement.
How much money would i need to build this dream

[masalai]

Well my little dream-boat will be around AU$300,000.00 (give or take a LOT) and will be used mainly in fairly sheltered waters (behind the Great Barrier Reef - or close to finding the lee of the islands around southern PNG, Solomon Islands & Vanuatu) - I do not intend to ever take the direct across "the ditch" short-cut.... The boat is light (under 5000kg loaded) and has a fairly strong bum to be able to sit on the hard when the tide goes out or glide up to a nearby beach.... I will probably sail in low double digits in fair breezes but motor at under 8 knots running on diesel sometimes but mostly Coconut Oil which is easier to get - I do not like petrol for cruising as it has a propensity to go BANG and requires careful application of exhaust fans to ensure no petrol vapor is accumulating in the hulls from leaks - - which WILL HAPPEN then think of the fuel load - 2 x 200hp outboards are VERY thirsty and any range will require regular access to fuel marinas.... Nuts to that.... I will have one CI engine that delivers 8000 watts of power and needs just the smell of an oily rag for that....

Click on the link below to see the summary of the 39'C

[charlesakeem]

Your right let my youth get the better of me for a few seconds.
Need to think long term but just for theory's sake what do you think those engines would do on a cat like your little piece
Cruising speed and GPH etc

[rasorinc]

Hey Charlesakeem, Your posting similar data in 2 catagories. Pick one and stay with it.

[masalai]

go too bloody fast to enjoy the voyage (with a correctly shaped bum would be giving the skippers piles sufficient incentive to splatter his shoes and around 30 to 40 knots for about 100 miles till you hit a short steep wave and went looking for the bottom -ground) and wont get you far....


I think Frostys boat is around 43 ft and weighs 12 tonnes (2.5 times mine) and does 23 - 27 knots but apart from slipping for bum cleans etc has not done any travelling for near on 2 years... WTF may as well have a pontoon houseboat? :D:D:D:D:D:P

[kerosene]

charlesakeem-

I read a few of your threads and they do scream enthusiasm.

However there are no miraculous shortcuts. 60-70 foot catamaran is not something you are going to whip up with scavenged parts and few buddies helping. I don't mean to be rude in any sense but I do think that learning more and setting somewhat more realistic dreams will be more fruitful in the end.

Pick a book or two of boat design and the principles behind it will help you understand the basic parameters. It will not make you a designer but it will help you in deciding on what kind of boat you really want.

Besides that - build a dinghy - it will cost you 1000-2000 with quality materials and you will get enormous boost in understanding what you are dreaming about.

Do you have sailing experience? Cruising experience? If you do you'll know that pretty minimalistic design is pretty on italian yacht magazine but not so comfy when you are bumping around in the open floor plan hitting the hard corners.

Do a search on books - there has been quite a few (my favourites: Gerr: Nature of boats, Herreschoff: Sailboats and few Uffa Fox books)
Reading these you'll realize that you do not need (or want) 2 x 200 (or 300) hp engines on a cruising boat. All you would do is make more waves and eat gasoline like nuts without any real speed advantage on a displacement hull.

Or you'll have a planing hull - in which case 2 x300 hp is not nearly enough (on a 60ft boat) and it wouldn't really be a cruising boat.

It is good to think out of the box and think of new ways (cheaper) of doing things - however if it was easy someone would be doing it already. You have to learn the rules before you can break them in an educated way.

[masalai]

Ooooh did I booboo I was thinking 30-35 ft for the outboards..... Just went as rabid without reading - sorry there....

[brian eiland]

Hi charlesakeem

Why don't you downgrade your entry size and monies and go with a kit project like this?

http://www.kit-cats.com (http://www.kit-cats.com/)/

[charlesakeem]

As said earlier in previous threads
I plan on doing this years from now. these are just things to take my education and research in the right direction.

So to get more experience before the big plunge. I plan on doing these things
Building another kayak only this time salvaging or manufacturing everything on where even unreasonably possible. ( if its metal i'll at least try my hand at casting or manufacturing it, but i somehow dont see me as being able to weave glass)

Moving on from there to building a one person junk rigged trimaran

Finishing of with maybe a small day sailer trimaran (hopefully tri junk rigged)

After i get finished with my AIT and am back in college.
I plan on taking more manufacturing courses
and a course on aerospace design since thats the closest I'm aware of my college having.

Thanks for all who have commented on my threads you've been great and kinder than deserve
Anything else you guys might suggest i add to my education

[boat fan]

Moving on from there to building a one person junk rigged trimaran

Finishing of with maybe a small day sailer trimaran (hopefully tri junk rigged)



The junk rig has much to offer on a cruising boat.

Easy reefing.
Safe.
You can make much of it ( if nor all of it ) yourself ,and save a bundle.
Etc ......

However , think about this ;

1. A " one person " trimaran suggests a compact ,light weight craft.
The usual reason for building a tri , particularly a small one , is high
performance.

2. If the tri is not light weight , it will not give that expected high
performance. It will be a bit of a pig to sail.

3. O K , So you build to a good light design .Such a boat should have little
trouble accelerating fast enough to draw the apparent wind far enough
forward to necessitate a relatively stable , high performance rig ,
particularly one that holds optimum shape.

4. Enter the junk rig: A relatively HEAVY rig , placed on a light high
performance boat. I believe you would be disappointed in the outcome.