Pricing Custom Catamaran Builds - the impossible task?

[talus]

Hi everyone, I have been surfing around here for some time now and educating myself. Great stuff!

I am trying to get an idea of what a custom built (or kit build) Catamaran might cost.

While you can find the price of almost anything on the web it seems that the price of a custom (or new) vessel is a trade secret. I have seen posts where the purchaser was offered a "free" flight to the South Africa factory to inspect the operation - the purchaser felt this tipped the scales in this particular manufacturers favor - and didn't question for a moment where the company would recover the cost of the flight (I'm sure the cost was built into his eventual purchase).

I am doing this because I am generally dissatisfied with the capabilities of most production power cats. My view is that they tend to focus on either: charter markets, speed, or luxury. Often they do this at the detriment to what I feel are the best qualities of a catamaran - stability, efficiency and light weight.

However, I am not independently wealthy. I do not have an unlimited budget or the ability of write off a large vessel as a company expense. And I am not interested in a luxury vessel - not that I could afford one anyway.

I just need to get a good idea what a custom build would cost. Obviously, labor rates vary by location throughout the world and any quotes would have the caveat of location.

The thread on "Low price Catamarans" has a post by Kenneth Grome (http://forums.boatdesign.net/showthread.php?t=21614&page=6) that quotes and Asian build...

"The last time I gave a potential customer a ballpark figure for a strip planked bottom and plywood / epoxy / fiberglass composite sandwich catamaran hull in the 30-40 foot size range I think I told him $7.00 per pound for a hull / deck / cabin finished on the outside but unfinished on the inside, or $12.00 per pound for a hull that's completely finished inside and out. ...... The truth is, I much prefer to build for $9 per hour plus materials rather than working under the cloud of a fixed contract price. It's more fun to build a boat when I can focus on quality construction and not worry about my bottom line, and my bottom line is simply not an issue when my profit is built into the hourly labor rate."

Has anyone done any research on this???

My questions are:


What is the cost "per-pound" or kilogram in other parts of the world ie. Australia, New Zealand, USA, South America etc?
Is this measure (cost per pound) an accurate method of pricing?
Is there a cost "per-foot" or meter that is generally accepted?
I assume (from this forum) that Sail Cat cost are comparable to Power at costs over the long run. Is this a safe assumption?
What about build quality - does it vary so vastly throughout the world?
While a given hull has a cost - what percentage can be saved by fitting out in "economy" vs "luxury"?


To put this in perspective my ideal vessel would be:

Type: Power or Motorsail Displacement Catamaran
Use: Liveaboard Family
Type of Cruising: West Coast North America (Juneau to Panama) + Caribbean and eventually Mediterranean (Circumnavigation?)
Accommodation: 2 Adults + 2 children (one boy, one girl so ideally 3 cabins or 2 cabins with a divider down center of children's cabin)
Range: 2500 NM @ 6-8 kts
Speed: up to 15 kts (not a hard requirement)
Quality: functional, basic, operational, owner maintainable - NOT luxury or lavish
Length: 44' to 56'
Note: Limit engine HP only to what is required - maximize fuel efficiency

You could place me firmly in the Robert Beebe - Malcolm Tennant camp.

Priorities:

Seaworthiness
Affordability
Fuel Economy
Range
Stability (a given with a catamaran)
Ease of Maintenance / Simplicity of Systems


Appealing designs and designers:

Malcolm Tennant St John 44' http://www.tennantdesign.co.nz/index.php?page=st-john---44
Malcolm Tennant Sounder http://www.tennantdesign.co.nz/index.php?page=sounder---46mshttp://www.tennantdesign.co.nz/index.php?page=sounder---46ms
Manta Catamarans Power 44' (does not have the range) http://www.mantacatamarans.com/powercat.cfm
Schionning Alaskan 51' (might not have the range) http://www.schionningdesigns.com.au/www/welcome.cfm

Currently operating designs / inspiration:

"Crysalis" 65' Malcolm Tennant Design http://chrysalisvoyage.com/
"Domino" 65' Malcolm Tennant Design http://dominocatamaran.blogspot.com/


Here is a old advertisement for a Malcolm Tennant St John 44' (http://www.2hulls.com/used_power_catamarans_2004/looselynx.html). You can see that the price had dropped from $549,000 to $398,000 on this American Built (http://www.pedigreecats.com/tennant/tenn44.htm) catamaran. I would consider $398K a very good price for a custom catamaran but am I mislead?

[Alik]

Please note that only cost of structure can be quoted per unit of weight. Say, in S.E.Asia for basic FRP in existing mold cost will be about 10 Euro/kg for polyester/CSM laminate. Use of sandwiches, multiaxial fabrics, etc. would increase cost to 20+ Euro/kg. For aluminum the cost is 14-17 Euro/kg. This cost includes raw material, labor and builder's overhead.

All equipment should be quoted on item-by-item basis. There is no other way to get accurate number.

For cats designs, please see this:
http://www.amdesign.co.th/design_dn44.htm
Now in construction in US.

[waikikin]

Talus, the points Alik has made are very valid esp' in regards to price per pound relating to the structure only, as he's mentioned esp for molded poly/csm laminates, a square meter price is also very valid especially as more lightweight/ one off methods are pursued & surface finishes become more labour intensive on a "faired" surface with 2 pak paint compared to a contact molded surface with gelcoat finish. As theres a lot of square meters in a cats structure- hulls, decks, underwing, bulkheads etc theres a trade between weight & cost. The size vessels you indicate inspiration from are gunna be pretty hungry in dollars. All the best with it from Jeff:)

[masalai]

Have a look around these sites for general reference and comparison purposes

http://www.yachthub.com.au/
http://www.thecoastalpassage.com/
http://multihull.com.au/site/

[talus]

A little more searching on costing and I stumbled onto this...

http://www.f-boat.com/pages/costsandtimes.html (http://www.f-boat.com/pages/costsandtimes.html)

...estimated total finished costs including labor should a custom/professional builder be employed are as follows:

23 - 26' (7 - 8m) - US$60,000 to $85,000

26 - 29' (8 - 9m) - US$68,000 to $110,000

29 - 33' (9 - 10m) - US$130,000 to $215,000

36 - 39 (11 - 12m) - US$275,000 to $400,000

39 - 42' (12 - 13m) - US$290,000 to $500,000

The above are realistic figures, and using average to good quality materials. A custom (professionally) built boat will usually cost more than a production version, but it can also be a considerably superior boat. Larger models (such as F-41) are usually more cost effective, and price can be competitive or even better than a production boat. Significant savings are only possible with smaller models by building yourself, or if located in a lower cost country where production prices have been inflated by currency exchange rates, or import duty factors.

A multihull will also usually cost from 15 to 25% more to build than a similar size monohull, but the resale value will be considerably more, even as much as double, due to the saturated market in used monohull sailboats, all very alike.

Note that the above costings were correct in 2008, and will require correcting for inflation, or for the area where the boat is to be built. In this regard, the best or only way for an accurate costing is to cost all items in the materials list (available in Study Site) in your area. Alternatively, as a rough guide, material cost will be about 40% of the retail cost for an equivalent production boat, plus or minus 10%, depending on builders bargaining ability.

They also have some basic charts giving material cost vs size and time to build vs size.

Overall it appears to be a very helpful analysis.:)

[masalai]

Some designers/builders such as Schionnings, and the "Fusion 40" from around Airlie beach Central Queensland in supplying kits can give fairly accurate costing and build time figures.

Here is a link for a Bob Oram project... http://www.thecoastalpassage.com/build_cat.html and is in build now so get the good oil as it happens....

[FAST FRED]

Seaworthiness

is first concern , and you select a boat that is as stable inverted as upright?

Sounds like room is your first concern.

FF

[RHough]

Seaworthiness

is first concern , and you select a boat that is as stable inverted as upright?



I bet you walk everywhere don't you? Inverted stability is a measure of crash recovery. Seaworthiness is a measure of how likely the crash is.

[masalai]

Retro, I tried to praise you but the mechanism will not allow me to give you more till I spread myself around????? My sense of humour appreciated your words, but then Fast Fred also has a valid point, but as has been declared on post #1, the Priorities:
1. Seaworthiness
2. Affordability
3. Fuel Economy
4. Range
5. Stability (a given with a catamaran)
6. Ease of Maintenance / Simplicity of Systems
demonstrating due care and some considerable research has been done... Just point talus in various directions so the various options can be considered.

I hope we are doing that and I feel talus will eventually make a wise and reasoned decision...

[RHough]

Retro, I tried to praise you but the mechanism will not allow me to give you more till I spread myself around????? My sense of humour appreciated your words, but then Fast Fred also has a valid point, but as has been declared on post #1, the Priorities:
1. Seaworthiness
2. Affordability
3. Fuel Economy
4. Range
5. Stability (a given with a catamaran)
6. Ease of Maintenance / Simplicity of Systems
demonstrating due care and some considerable research has been done... Just point talus in various directions so the various options can be considered.

I hope we are doing that and I feel talus will eventually make a wise and reasoned decision...

:D thanks.

I think we have all agreed that the human factor plays a large role in the relative seaworthiness of small boats (anything under about 70 feet). After the keel falls off I've sees an alarming number of monos that look every bit as stable inverted as a multi. ;)

I think #2 and #6 will be sticking points when comparing boats. As soon as you check the catamaran box you guarantee higher expense and complexity of systems. A single engine and single helm station jump right out as unlikely for a cruising cat.

I'm trying to make these sorts of decisions myself ... I have to decide how much of 30 knot cruise speed I'm willing to give up for a greater than 350 mile range. :)

R

[CTMD]

Talus,

check www.adventurebay.co.nz the company owner is a very experianced powercat "cruiser" , his last boat was an 86' Tennant, and we designed the powercats in their range to fit his brief based upon actual experiance.

With regards to prices/lb this is a very difficult stratagy. As Alik pointed out it will vary a lot depending on the materials used with the largest variations being for composite boats where you could have a super high tech Nomex/Carbon boat being compared to a chopped strand mat boat. Add to that the fact that the structure may be as small a componet of the final price as 25% or as much at 80% and you start to realise the issues. My advice is find the designs you like and ask the designer or builder for contact info for an owner. Most owners are more than willing to talk about their boats and you'll get a far better feeling for the actual cost than you do with a designer/builder unless they are quoting to build it for you. Kitset boats rarely turn out as cheap as the people marketing the plans claim.

If a designer won't give you these details then it usually means the boat cost much more than the estimates, didn't perform as claimed or there was a falling out between designer/client. These falling outs are very rarely the clients fault.

[masalai]

Retro, a Robin Chamberlin design, 14 odd metres loa power cat called "Foreign Affair" was for sale (I am not sure but I think the asking was in the vicinity of AU$1.2million) and I saw it in the Raby Bay area close to Brisbane, Queensland...

http://www.icecat.com.au/objectives.htm is on "extended sea trials"

[talus]

All good input and discussion.

The aim of my post was to attempt to establish some approximate costs - manufacturers being so reluctant to publish them.

I listed "Seaworthiness" as a prime consideration so that I could differentiate my desired vessel (an ocean crosser) from those powercats designed for coastal use (i.e. ICW, US great loop etc). I also felt bad putting affordability first --- but in the end, if I can't afford it the other considerations don't matter.

Here is a Tennant designed 56' Trawler built in 2001 and listed for $749,000 USD (http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp?&units=Feet&currency=USD&ro=3&r=1150718&rs=yachtworld.com&rt=Catamaran&boat_id=1150718&checked_boats=1150718&slim=quick&Ntt=tennant&searchtype=searchbar&Ntk=boatsEN&sm=3&luom=126&currencyid=100) on Yachtworld.com. Based on the price discussed here, 749K looks to be good value for a very capable vessel (condition dependent of course). Detail of the design are here http://www.tennantdesign.co.nz/index.php?page=icebear.

Refreshingly, I did notice that Antares (formerly PDQ) does list their Sail Catamaran prices clearly right here http://www.liveantares.com/44pricing.htm. In short, as of 2008 a 44' sail cat base model is $775,000 and a well equipped one is $839,000. I would consider Antares cats to be on the Luxury side of the line.

Back in 2003 Eric Sponberg wrote (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4217):

Most do-it-yourself builders will underestimate costs, almost by a factor of 10--when they think it will cost $10,000, it will really cost $100,000. Professionally built, a 40' boat will cost $300,000, give or take. You can [save] same some on the cost of labor, but you will have to hire some labor to help you because you need more than two hands to do many things. You can also figure that the materials will run somewhere between 20% to 30% of the total cost, so for $300,000 total, your materials for the boat will be in the neighborhood of $60,000 to $90,000.

Costs for different sizes of boats will vary with the cube of the length, so based on the cost of $300,000 for a 40' boat, you can figure the cost for a 50' boat would be, roughly, $300,000 x 50^3/40^3 = $585,937.50. This again is professionally built, and if you know what you are doing, you might save some of that cost for your own labor. These number do NOT include the cost of the place to build the boat, which is another major factor.

[masalai]

talus, I clicked on the 2 Tennant links and both were not available anymore.... (It is about a month since Mr Tennant died....? Some of his designs were very fuel efficient and could make good ocean passages.... Very similar to "Foreign Affair"

[talus]

Sorry, links corrected.

[masalai]

Thanks talus, The 56' trawler uses the "skinny hull" configuration which is also on Chamberlins power cats and John Hitch (sail but commencing a power cat now/soonish.... Over USA way the beam overall seems narrower (marina berthing?) whereas in OZ, many around 40' LOA, have a beam overall around 24' which seems to support a more comfortable ride given higher bridgedeck clearance.

My biased view is that in cruising cats (power & sail) Australian design innovation is streets ahead of USA where the market seems to concentrate on mono or trawler "production models".... In OZ/NZ there are more designers/builders and fierce market penetration for single (non-production-line) builds.

Most builds expect/support owner presence/participation in the process, which I think is a very good thing as the owner gets to know his boat and its often "hidden systems" very well....

[CTMD]

All good input and discussion.
Here is a Tennant designed 56' Trawler built in 2001 and listed for $749,000 USD (http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp?&units=Feet&currency=USD&ro=3&r=1150718&rs=yachtworld.com&rt=Catamaran&boat_id=1150718&checked_boats=1150718&slim=quick&Ntt=tennant&searchtype=searchbar&Ntk=boatsEN&sm=3&luom=126&currencyid=100) on Yachtworld.com. Based on the price discussed here, 749K looks to be good value for a very capable vessel (condition dependent of course). Detail of the design are here http://www.tennantdesign.co.nz/index.php?page=icebear.
[/I]


Talus if this is the boat I think it is, it has some "issues" and a very dissapointed owner. I won't go into details incase I'm confused, but I'd advise against using it as a bench mark in case I'm right.

Also be cautious of very wide boats with long super-slended hulls. Despite their great fuel efficiency, They don't make good passagemakers.

[eastcape]

Talus,

Wide body cats with slender hulls are fuel efficient, however, are very tight for accommodation, comfort & buoyancy. A "custom" live aboard cat should be a compromise of comfort, form & function to suit your specific requirements.

If you have an exact budget: There are some very nice production models available if you were seeking to turn-key and go. I would only recommend going with a custom design and build if you are unable to find a vessel for sale that would suit at least 80% of your requirements. ( Or you have deep pockets and want something unique :) )

A custom design and build project can be very rewarding for all parties involved. You as a customer need to plan carefully and after du diligence, proceed with the designer and builder that you feel comfortable with. Talus, you have started at the right place as there is world class design talent and information on this site to be educated from.

In regards to a kitset: A kitset will help reduce the labour cost for the assemble time of the shell of the vessel. If you are an owner who likes to feel, see, and build things as you go, a kitset will not work in your favour. A kitset requires more time and cost in the design stage to reduce the assembly time for the builder. Pay more for the design, save money on labour during construction. A kitset is also a good way for the customer to prepare a budget of known cost. The design will cost X, the kitset will cost X, and then the estimated is labour and fit-out is X. There are many variations of kitset methods available to choose from. All of them have pros and cons. The customer & preferred builder should work closely together in choosing the right kitset method to suit the customers budget and the builders capabilities.

In regards to custom design: Once you have a preliminary design, it is reasonably easy to price the kitset options. A preliminary design will also allow you to talk to builders and get a feel for their abilities and prices.

If you do proceed with the "custom design process" from any designer: Take small steps by acquiring the concept design, then the preliminary design, then when everything is lined up proceed with the final kitset or construction design.

Regards,

[talus]

Noah,

I think you have hit the nail on the head regarding the 80% solution.

Every vessel is a compromise (cost, size, accommodation, quality etc). At the moment I'm finding there is much more value in used boats - at least for someone on a limited budget.

While I would love a custom built vessel (by someone other than me), I don't think one is going to fit with my funds.

However, I really do like the consistency of kits such as those built by Fusion Cat of Australia http://www.fusioncats.com.au/. That is the type of kit project that I would like to take on.

Cheers.

[ct marine nz]

As all boats vary so much giving a $amount per kg or pound is only ever gonna give you a ball park price which is not enough to commit to a project my advice would be to settle on a design and REALISTIC budget then either get a builder to price it (not a designer as they dont have a clue) or if you are gonna build it yourself price all the hardware and then work out how many years off work its going to take and thats you sorted

[Scrumble]

Good Day Talus,

I agree getting a cost analysis is very difficult.
I have been through that and as my project is current I have a good handle on it now.
Please contact me if you would like to talk figures re our project, which seems very similar to your specs.

Regards,

Tom