Lifting Hydrofoils(foil assist) in the Americas Cup!!!(?)

[Doug Lord]

Just found some pix on SA confirming what I thought I saw earlier. The new BMW/Oracle tri will use lifting foils to reduce wetted surface and increase speed for the first time in the history of the Americas Cup*. Very,very exciting!
*I hope!

[lazeyjack]

as far as i am concerned, these things are way outside the realms of what I would term REAL, boat, ridiculous in the extreme I love sailing cats, fact had one at age 18, but would hate the cup to go this way

[Doug Lord]

It's a dream come true for me,well almost: its still in the courts.....

[masalai]

In that case - the side with the best lawyer will win the next "Americas' Cup" - - To my mind, that competition has lost all its "merit"

[Chris Ostlind]

Well, it's only a matter of time before the slow as soap monohulls start to install full time running engines for keels, canting masts, automatic sail trimming systems, et. al.... and frankly I just can't wait.

Reason...? the first time Ol' Ernesto or Larry, or whatever greasy bazillionaire has a $2 fuel line filter clog that shuts down their entire enterprise, costing them the size of their arrogant cajones, as well as all the billions they have wangled out of whatever sponsors are still left... well, that will signal the return to reasonable exercises in legitimate sailing contests which are psychologically and physically accessible to the rest of us.

Maybe a goodly number of the readers have once played the game of baseball...? If you have not, then pick your favorite sport as they have all been invaded by chemistry enhanced athletes. Of that group, do any of you have any reasonable method to relate to the on the field batting behaviors of Barry Bonds, the King of the Pumped Juicers?

I played very serious ball as a younger man and I have absolutely no desire to watch the steroid monkeys as they jack pitches into the night sky. It's tough for me to attend a major league game anymore and I just adore the sport... it's gotten that bad.

To my way of thinking, the installation of all this above mentioned junk, in what should be a much more simply constructed interaction between two classic yachts and their crews, will corrupt the contest so far afield that nobody will give a damn.

Not opposed to outer limits technology or its development, just take it somewhere else and call it something else. Is it any wonder that the sailing industry has been shrinking annually?

The ego boys might as well lay their units out on a coffee table, get out a metric ruler and declare a winner.. it's gotten that stupid.

Rant over

[lazeyjack]

great post Chris

[RHough]

The AC has always included a "best lawyers" component.

The AC was intended to showcase the best design and construction, it was about the boats, not the hired help that sails them.

The AC Box Rule is simple, written in 1857.

For Sloops:
90ft LWL max
22ft Draught max
Sail power only
Centre boards and sliding keels allowed

At one time construction techniques and materials made mono leadmines the fastest boats under this box rule.

The 12's needed an amendment to allow such small (slow) boats to be used.

All most of us have ever seen in the AC is a perversion of the intent of the deed.

I love the 12M era as much as anyone I've ever talked to, but Match Racing was never the intent of the Cup. If it was, the design limits would have been more constrained.

This is a design forum, the AC has a nearly wide open design rule. Everyone here should have a huge hard on for these new boats built to the Cup rule.

Where does this idea that slower boats are better in a design contest come from?

There are only two limits to design, those of nature and those of man. How can a designer not relish the thought of fewer not greater limits to their freedom to pursue a goal?

The Cup rule allows the limits of nature and current technology to be explored with a budget to match. What's not to like about that?

:D

[Doug Lord]

Shocking! You are no longer a 'Retro Dude'-something else has infected you.
Great post ,Future Dude!

[masalai]

When it becomes a lawyers benevolent party - I turn off - now the AC MUST rebuild a reputation for seeking excellence in sailboat design.... That big, will force the racing action beyond view.... may as well be a race across the Atlantic (via the Panama and Suez canals)...

For spectator interest 12m LOA and 3m Draught would be more appropriate....

[RHough]

When it becomes a lawyers benevolent party - I turn off - now the AC MUST rebuild a reputation for seeking excellence in sailboat design.... That big, will force the racing action beyond view.... may as well be a race across the Atlantic (via the Panama and Suez canals)...

For spectator interest 12m LOA and 3m Draught would be more appropriate....

:)

I agree that the AC must be kept out of court, if the deed had not been abused so in the 'Modern Era' it would not be in court. This formum is not the place to go into trust law and the like, but I assure you efforts are being made to bring the Cup back to what was intended in 1857.

As far as spectator interest goes, that is another debate. ;)

There is no spectator interest in watching boats as slow as a hippy on a push bike. The interest in the AC is the drama, scale, and absurdity of it all. Rumor has it that the BMW Oracle Racing 90 is a $100 million project ... beyond what most people can grasp.

A Class 40 rule loses that, hell, almost anyone can afford a Class 40 sized boat. Compared to the AC 12m boats are chump change. No host City is going to put up serious cash to support a Farr40 match racing event.

[RHough]

Shocking! You are no longer a 'Retro Dude'-something else has infected you.
Great post ,Future Dude!

Thanks Doug

I'm still Retro Dude. I'm trying to push the AC rules back to 1857 ... that is about as retro as it gets. ;)

The "sail power only" bit is the killer for the owners and designers of the current crop of maxis. There is no doubt that for the same design and build budget, it is possible to go faster than the likes of AR et al.

I've always felt that one should use the best design, materials and construction techniques available. If budget limits the project, then use the best you can afford. Likewise, I like simple, easy to understand rules and goals. The Cup is most elegant. Build the fastest boat you can and lets race.

Deciding to use less than the fastest boats in the AC is like deciding to run the 100m dash backwards and expecting the world to think that you are the fastest man on the planet ... it is just silly.

Until the 1960's or thereabouts it was unlikely that a 65-90 ft LWL version of Amaryllis would have been a threat to the fastest ballasted mono. Once modern composite structures allowed the D/L ratios to get low enough, it should have been just a matter of time before a multi won the Cup.

I'm sure people that think of themselves as AC purists will point to the old requirement for a boat to sail to the match on her own bottom and try to argue the point ... good luck to them.

The fact is that a Cup legal boat that able to not only sail 'Round The World, but Race RTW could have sailed to Valencia and beaten the living crap out of Alinghi's IACC V5 boat. On the other hand the "new" AC90 designs don't have a chance in hell of sailing from Valencia to SF to take the Cup back.

It is pure hypocrisy to cry foul on multi's in the Cup and defend the totally unseaworthy boats that have sailed for the Cup since 1992. 23 knot wind limit? Give me a break.

If we are going to have fragile, unseaworthy boats in the AC anyway, they may as well be fast. Anything less is just a circle jerk, it might be fun for the participants, but it does not prove anything and does not advance the state of the art in sailing vessel design.

[Doug Lord]

http://bmworacleracing.com/en/index.html?track.refer=

[Asleep Helmsman]

The Americas’ Cup is perhaps the best known sailing race in the world; many people that can’t even tell a transom, are at least mildly interested in the Cup.

So why would limits to the technology make any sense whatsoever?

There are plenty of class races every year and they attract far less notice than the Cup. The Cup possesses the spirit of adventure and the sense of what is possible. That is a large part of what makes it so popular. You might as well say we should never have gone to the moon, or that Magellan should have stayed in Portugal.

The state of the art of many industries is moved forward by high profile exhibitions. It has been one of the major contributors to genius in the last century.

You really have to ask the question; what would motivate one to stifle a venue such as this?


Joe

[daiquiri]

During the last 3-4 editions America's Cup has become a world-wide event, more than it has ever been in the past 100+ years of it's existance. It could happen because more strict rules have been established and (more or less) respected about the allowed vessel construction, which gave the competitors the possibility to make boats of similar characteristics and therefore to race at the same level.

Yes, the boats are too slow for some, but I still remember some spectacular match race moments and head to head race finals. One, in particular has become the symbol of what the America's Cup should be, IMHO.
It was 1992 edition in San Diego, Moro di Venezia racing the 2nd race against America3. The last downwind leg was head-to-head and the victory was uncertain until the very last moment, when (Moro's) Paul Cayard ordered the release of the spinnaker from the pole, which gave him those few inches necessary for the victory... Today, 16 yrs after, I still remember the adrenaline of that last downwind leg! That's what capture people's heart.

Have another situation like the schooner America arriving first with no one behind her and AC will bounce off all the public, the sponsors and the media it has gained through the years, IMHO. In fact, the first consequence of the current chaos is already here: Louis Vuiton is no longer part of the circus. One huge historical sponsor has left and gone away.

Now, about that cat BMW Oracle has constructed. Basicaly, I hope it will flip over or break 6 times out of 10 during the races (without consequences for the crew, of course), because it is just a cheat, a way to avoid the race. Sorry guys, but I hate to see these things.

I also hope that after this mess the AC commitee and competitors will find the way of reason and will establish common rules not modifiable by neither the defender nor the challenger.

I think that the only way to have people watching with interest is to have a match race.
To have the match race you need to assure a fair race.
And the only way of having a fair race is to have boats constructed to the same standard.

For the record: America3 won that finals 4-1 against Moro di Venezia but America's Cup competition has won the hearts of many people, even those who didn't know much about sailing but who did recognise all the values of the sport in it.

[RHough]

It could happen because more strict rules have been established and (more or less) respected about the allowed vessel construction, which gave the competitors the possibility to make boats of similar characteristics and therefore to race at the same level.

Have another situation like the schooner America arriving first with no one behind her and AC will bounce off all the public, the sponsors and the media it has gained through the years, IMHO. In fact, the first consequence of the current chaos is already here: Louis Vuiton is no longer part of the circus. One huge historical sponsor has left and gone away.

Now, about that cat BMW Oracle has constructed. Basicaly, I hope it will flip over or break 6 times out of 10 during the races (without consequences for the crew, of course), because it is just a cheat, a way to avoid the race. Sorry guys, but I hate to see these things.

I also hope that after this mess the AC commitee and competitors will find the way of reason and will establish common rules not modifiable by neither the defender nor the challenger.

I think that the only way to have people watching with interest is to have a match race.
To have the match race you need to assure a fair race.
And the only way of having a fair race is to have boats constructed to the same standard.



Very nice post. I share the passion for the AC.

However most of the things you talk about are not legal under New York trust law. The rules of the AC are governed by the court and not the sailors.

Luis Vuitton and TNZ are hosting a series in Auckland in 2009.

The LVC is what we have come to think is the AC. The AC that the deed describes is not Match Racing between similar boats. The deed describes a race between two different designs, a race where the boat is more important than the sailors.

[daiquiri]

1) Luis Vuitton and TNZ are hosting a series in Auckland in 2009.
...
2) The LVC is what we have come to think is the AC. The AC that the deed describes is not Match Racing between similar boats. The deed describes a race between two different designs, a race where the boat is more important than the sailors.

I'm glad that we share the same passion, but now I realize that maybe I didn't really like the AC as such - I liked it because of the LVC. :D

Now about your points:

1) The Louis Vuitton Pacific Series is a new creation, completely independent from AC. While the old LVC winner would become the challenger to the AC defender, this series has no relationship to AC anymore. The winner of LV Pacific Series is just the winner of that competiton and that's all. That said, it will reflect closely what the old LVC was. The teams will race on the boats which will be very similar to each other, so it will be a tight match-race regattas.

I can bet that it will become one of the most viewed and followed sailing events, due to it's higly competitive formulae and also because of the popularity the old LVC has gained through AC.
AC, on the other hand, will become (unless some radical change is made) what it once was - a private race for a couple of Commonwealth (plus US) clubs aiming to show the other party that they are smarter law interpreters.

LV Pacific Series is oriented towards sailors, not towards the boats, which makes it more sport than the AC. I can bet it will be a true fireworks of great races, tactics and athletes and can't wait for it to start. :)

2) AC has lost one great chance of evolving it's rules and the competition into something more modern and interesting. It could have become a sport.

[RHough]

I'm glad that we share the same passion, but now I realize that maybe I didn't really like the AC as such - I liked it because of the LVC. :D

Now about your points:

1) The Louis Vuitton Pacific Series is a new creation, completely independent from AC. While the old LVC winner would become the challenger to the AC defender, this series has no relationship to AC anymore. The winner of LV Pacific Series is just the winner of that competiton and that's all. That said, it will reflect closely what the old LVC was. The teams will race on the boats which will be very similar to each other, so it will be a tight match-race regattas.

I can bet that it will become one of the most viewed and followed sailing events, due to it's higly competitive formulae and also because of the popularity the old LVC has gained through AC.
AC, on the other hand, will become (unless some radical change is made) what it once was - a private race for a couple of Commonwealth (plus US) clubs aiming to show the other party that they are smarter law interpreters.

LV Pacific Series is oriented towards sailors, not towards the boats, which makes it more sport than the AC. I can bet it will be a true fireworks of great races, tactics and athletes and can't wait for it to start. :)

2) AC has lost one great chance of evolving it's rules and the competition into something more modern and interesting. It could have become a sport.

I have hopes that Luis Vuitton will sponsor events like this in other places. The Cup teams, who mostly share the same passion for Match Racing that we have come to think of as the AC, can support and help create a commercially successful series.

There is nothing in the Deed of Gift to prevent the defending Club from agreeing to race the winner of the LV series for the America's Cup.

The teams and Luis Vuitton can make sure the LV series is fair to all and a good deal for sponsors without having to go to court every time a rule change is needed. The reality of the AC is that since 1983 the AC Match is just the grand finale of the Luis Vuitton series.

Without LV, the AC would never have gotten as big as it has.

Part of me really wants to see the two fastest course racing boats on the planet race for the America's Cup, another part of me wants to see another grand event like AC32, with the LVC winner sailing against the AC winner for the Cup.

Just as long as the whole thing is not controlled by the defender, I'll be happy.

[daiquiri]

Just as long as the whole thing is not controlled by the defender, I'll be happy.

I perfectly agree.