Little Catamarans Vs. Little Trimarans for Beachcamping

[rayaldridge]

I just posted an article on Slider's blog regarding this subject.
It's a long piece, but stated briefly, my claim is that if you want a
multihull microcruiser, a tiny cat makes more sense than a tiny tri--
unless high speed is at the top of your priority list.

If you're interested in the subject matter, please let me know what
you think, here or there.

Ray

http://slidercat.com

[Manie B]

I also favour a small cat.
That is why i have started to build my own MiniCAT5 with the accomodation layout of a Jarcat and hulls similar to Strider.
Keep up the good work, you have been endless inspiration for me, thanks.
Herewith some pics of such a beauties that i got of the net.
I should hopefully be able to post pics in two weeks time of progress made so far.

[rayaldridge]

Manie, what a great thing to say. Thanks.

I'll look forward to seeing pictures of your progress. I have to admire your decisiveness. It took me a year or two to go from "I have an idea for an interesting boat" to "I think I'll build that boat."

Ray

http://slidercat.com

[Chris Ostlind]

Ray,

I have not read your blog posting yet, as I just got back from a long
climbing trip with my son and daughter. I'll get to that reading as soon as time allows. While getting to the reading of your blog, I would like to offer-up this response to the claim that a small cat is better than a small tri for cruising.

Simply put; it all depends on the designated purpose, owner desires and
destinations planned.

Each boat has its points in favor and they reach well beyond the speed
potential while under sail. They each also have their problems. There is no
one size fits all solution to the business of how all the sailors out there
in multihull wonderland may wish to use their boats when they want to take
on a boating adventure.

Personally, I'd be much more inclined to suggest that each sailor first try
to define, as closely as possible, just what kind of "cruising" they would
like to do and how much utility they might expect in their boats for that
potential. Then, they can go about the business of selecting a proper craft
for their particular kind of need.

Chris

[rayaldridge]

Can't argue with any of that, but I think it's helpful to give specific examples of the strengths and weaknesses of different boats. My belief is that for open boats under 20 feet, beachcruising cats are superior to beachcruising tris in every aspect except speed. I'd need to see some concrete counterexamples before I'd change my mind.

Of course, speed is a really big deal, as most folks who are attracted by multihulls would probably list speed as the biggest multihull advantage over monohulls. There's no theoretical reason why a little cat can't be almost as fast as a little tri, but that involves giving up certain advantages, such as fixed beam at a highway-legal width (or some stability.) With Slider, I chose quick launching and anxiety-free sailing over speed, because that was more important to me.

As you say, boat design is a matter of making choices between imperfect alternatives. I just wanted to explain mine, from the viewpoint of someone who wanted as much luxury as was possible in a simple open 16 foot cat.

Apparently, my choices are unusual, since no other boats like Slider appear to exist. That seems to be changing, as another Slider is building in NY, and a larger Slider-like boat is being planned from modified Selway Fisher plans. The latter is being built with sliding beams and a big rig, so it will have all the cruising advantages of Slider and also great speed, at some cost in complexity and time spent at the ramp.



Ray

http://slidercat.com

[Chris Ostlind]

...My belief is that for open boats under 20 feet, beachcruising cats are superior to beachcruising tris in every aspect except speed. I'd need to see some concrete counterexamples before I'd change my mind.

So, here's an opening mind changer...

You are out sailing down an interesting coastline (lake or ocean) and notice that there's a substantial estuary system where a small river lets into the larger body of water. The area looks to be filled with small islands, noticeable wildlife and dozens of meandering, very shallow pathways into the interior. You'd like to go in there and explore, but in the draft-consuming cat, there's just no way.

You did not bring any sort of kayak, canoe, or inflatable as it would have taken far too much of the available room and the weight of the smaller boat would also have to be considered.

So, you don't get to explore and inevitably pass by the opportunity for a truly rich coastal cruising experience.

The boat shown below lets you beach your craft, demount the amas and rig and turn the main hull into a low draft, easily paddled canoe. The business of exploring the complexity of this estuary suddenly takes on a whole new level of opportunity for the coastal explorer.

It's not just speed advantages, or better performance in light airs... it's a whole open book of potential adventures that are otherwise untapped by such small, cruising multihull craft.

The shot of the canoe being paddled on the lake in fall is the exact same hull as the trimaran on the beach at Lake Powell in the other shot. The trimaran pictured can be demounted right down to an 80 pound, highly responsive and fast tripping canoe that is decked for the elements and very stable.

And this estuary potential is just for openers. How about a multi day canoe trip up the river that created the estuary in the style of the French Voyageurs? Not exactly the type of boating adventure that could be taken with the suggested beach cat.

So, it takes us back to the comment in which one needs to first create the list of needs that one expects from their coastal adventure beach multihull. That list will dictate which kinds of craft are best suited for the person who wants the boat.

Chris

[rayaldridge]

Well, there you go. If you're willing to accept the limitations that such a boat entails, I can see that a specialized function like that might appeal to some sailors.

However, I don't see that a trimaran is necessary to achieve this function-- or is even optimal.

One big tradeoff that this approach necessitates is that the main hull must be wide enough to be stable as a solo craft. This precludes high speed, in my opinion, at least without a big enough rig to overcome the greater drag that a canoe hull has over a finer, more conventional low-resistance hull. But for someone who's willing to accept that limitation, I see no reason why a cat can't be built from two canoe hulls. You'd have the various cruising advantages I attribute to cats in the blog piece, as well as the take-apart and go solo function you describe. What's more, the boat breaks down into two canoes so a two-person crew could each have his or her own boat, and a solo sailor would be no worse off-- he'd still have to leave big chunks behind. I can see another advantage to the cat format for your idea. When you disassemble the tri, you have to leave the floats and beams and rig somewhere, and risk theft or damage while you're away. The catamaran double canoe might be able to stow that stuff aboard the canoes, if cleverly engineered. You mention a voyageur type of adventure-- but that doesn't seem particularly practical with a boat that must leave vital parts of itself behind when running the river between two lakes. If all the parts can be stowed aboard the canoes, you can run the rapids to the next lake and then reassemble the canoes into the more luxurious sailing cat configuration. Cruise the lake in a leisurely manner, then break down the boats again to run the next river segment. That way you can actually progress through a chain of lakes and not have to be limited by the distance you're willing to put between you and the other pieces of the boat.

Of course, this design approach has been tried at every summer camp in the Adirondacks, mostly by lashing a couple of Grumman canoes together and sticking some kind of rudimentary rig on it. Such boats are fun, safe, and stable, but not very fast. A lot of room for improvement, in other words.

If you read the blog piece, you'll see that I'm evaluating the relative merits of cat and tri based on the most common kind of beachcruising-- or maybe it's just the kind I'm most familiar with.

I have to admit, though, that voyageur scenario is pretty appealing, particularly since I'm originally from the North Country. Maybe I'll work on a kit to convert a couple plastic canoes.

Ray

http://slidercat.com

[Chris Ostlind]

Well, there you go. If you're willing to accept the limitations that such a boat entails, I can see that a specialized function like that might appeal to some sailors.


Unfortunately, Ray, anyone who owns a boat, of any kind, has to accept limitations. Your boat has some significant limitations, the XCR also has its own version of something along those lines. All multihulls, as well as boats of other configurations, have the same issues. So, the point is?


However, I don't see that a trimaran is necessary to achieve this function-- or is even optimal.


While you may not, Others certainly do. It's all a matter of preferences. Part your hair on a certain side, do you?


One big tradeoff that this approach necessitates is that the main hull must be wide enough to be stable as a solo craft. This precludes high speed, in my opinion, at least without a big enough rig to overcome the greater drag that a canoe hull has over a finer, more conventional low-resistance hull.


You mention beach cats as your benchmark. Were you shooting for beach cat-like performance with your boat? Something along the lines of a Nacra 5.8? Did you hit the mark... or did you make another compromise in order to get something else that you prized more than blazing speed?

Don't get so hung-up on hull width in your understanding of an effective multihull design. To box yourself in over hull width is to not see that there are plenty of opportunities for other, equally interesting expressions.

Example: with your very nice little boat, you have managed to compromise the rig size of many typical 16 foot "beach cat" designs that are out there in use. You have given away a key performance aspect, in order to get something you felt was more along the lines of what you sought as a sailor. It would seem, then, that you would understand the business of adjusting the design elements to suit the overall needs of the brief.

The only question that matters is: Did you get what you were looking for? If you did, then the design works for the listed elements in the original brief and the rest is essentially meaningless.

For all you guys who may find Ray's argument compelling as to marginalized speed under sail for a canoe bodied multihull (trimaran), here's a nice little vid clip for you to watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eEouoOXs7M
I must be missing the part where the speed is not up to par.


But for someone who's willing to accept that limitation, I see no reason why a cat can't be built from two canoe hulls. You'd have the various cruising advantages I attribute to cats in the blog piece, as well as the take-apart and go solo function you describe.


Of course, you can build a cat to any set of design parameters, Ray. If the design process reflects the needs as outlined in the brief, then you have a successful design. Want to hook together two tripping canoes? Go right ahead. I'm sure that in some respects it will be a fine craft for the surmised intent. In others, it will need to address the areas in which a compromise has been made in order to reach said goals.

I have willingly accepted the so-called limitations in order to get what I was looking for in the design of the XCR. It is a successful boat, the new owner is very happy with the finished product and I like the way it works, the way it looks and the level of finish to which it has been built.


What's more, the boat breaks down into two canoes so a two-person crew could each have his or her own boat, and a solo sailor would be no worse off-- he'd still have to leave big chunks behind.


Perfect, you've hit on another wonderful possibility for an effective multihull design. I understand why you make the statement, but it does not push the discussion forward.


I can see another advantage to the cat format for your idea. When you disassemble the tri, you have to leave the floats and beams and rig somewhere, and risk theft or damage while you're away.


Theft or damage while you are away? This is a huge concern for you? Then do what the Voyageurs did and post a guard at any location where they felt their supplies, boats or anything of value would be compromised. ;-)

So, the question now becomes... just what do you do with your boat, that would make it decidedly secure, should you wish to take a hike into the surrounding countryside to explore? You are not going to portage that heavy of a craft as you hike, are you? Then that means that you will never be able to leave your boat, or you will be open to the same sort of vandalism you describe as a limitation for other designs. Surely you intend to get to know the country in which you travel?


The catamaran double canoe might be able to stow that stuff aboard the canoes, if cleverly engineered. You mention a voyageur type of adventure-- but that doesn't seem particularly practical with a boat that must leave vital parts of itself behind when running the river between two lakes. If all the parts can be stowed aboard the canoes, you can run the rapids to the next lake and then reassemble the canoes into the more luxurious sailing cat configuration. Cruise the lake in a leisurely manner, then break down the boats again to run the next river segment. That way you can actually progress through a chain of lakes and not have to be limited by the distance you're willing to put between you and the other pieces of the boat.


And if the need to reassemble the boat on the other side is moot? As in, the paddlers will be making a round trip effort to the original spot of the gear stash.... much like the Voyageurs, by the way, who paddled rivers in both directions and enjoyed pre-stashed supplies for their return home. Surely a North Country person would understand that part of the history and allow for an expansive expression with the design of their craft?


Of course, this design approach has been tried at every summer camp in the Adirondacks, mostly by lashing a couple of Grumman canoes together and sticking some kind of rudimentary rig on it. Such boats are fun, safe, and stable, but not very fast. A lot of room for improvement, in other words.

Well, you did suggest it, right? Still, I just attended the Outdoor Retailer Show, here in Salt Lake City, where all the major boat manufacturers show their collection of offerings for the coming year to owners of retail shops worldwide.

Being shown on the beach this year, was a craft not unlike the one you describe fashioned from two canoe-like hulls with a trampoline surface in between them. The canoes, in this case, were powered by the company's new pedal powered prop system and the boat moved along at quite a clip. This, in spite of the hull designs that were optimized for much slower movement. So, perhaps there is a niche within the greater multihull genre for your inspired idea, Ray. Native Watercaft sure think so and they are backed by millions of dollars and some of the brightest minds in production boats of this type.

I say go for it.


I have to admit, though, that voyageur scenario is pretty appealing, particularly since I'm originally from the North Country. Maybe I'll work on a kit to convert a couple plastic canoes.


Plastic hulls may just be in your future, no matter what you do about it, so the effort may just be fruitful. I can see you in a paired-up, plastic, canoe-based multihull, blasting through your favorite waters with a big grin on your face. After all, Ray, who is to say that one man's experience is any less than the next guys... no matter the boat he chooses to use for his adventure?

There are lots of boats out there, there are lots of "uncharted waters" before you and, if you are lucky, you will have the time of your life doing it. I've mentioned, several times, in postings past (on other Forums) that you have turned-in a very nice effort on your boat. But, certainly, you also get, after doing all this work and making your first forays into the water... that this little cat is not a magic carpet on the water, any more than any other boat out there that also does what it was designed to do?

Spending too much time on this wild goose chase of what multihull is better than the next is rather low on the return on investment scale, don't you think? Especially when the respective owners are as delighted as a guy could be.

From where I sit, the whole issue is a draw and there's no need to haggle any further.

Thanks for the thread and your points have been lifted for initiating the stimulating conversation.


Chris

[rayaldridge]

Thanks, Chris.

Ray

http://slidercat.com

[popperspop]

Ray...........

I am a former Stiletto 27 owner. We went cruising most summer weekends. With a huge asymetric she would do 18 knts in a 20 knt breeze with two hulls in the water. When new she weighed 1200 lbs.. I think her hulls at the water line were about 1/10 of her lwl. She was a four hour or more struggle on the ramp coming and going

About ten years ago I ordered plans for a 15 ft. Tri that the designer said he had achieved 23 kts in. I bought the sail, a 10 sq meter wind surfer rig but the thought of sitting on the side tramps turned me off so I designed and built
a fifteen foot mono with hiking wings but my current health keeps me from risking a capsize, so my interest in a micro cruising cat.

My suspician is that the desirable lwl to beam ratio pinches off the width of the cat format hulls to a buoyancy function while the Tri can use a planeing center hull. Looks like you did a good job on Slider but that could be contributing to your speed constriction. The Everglade Challenge has piqued my interest in recent years and has convinced me that sitting and sleeping in a hull is preferable to on top.

I am wondering what affect the canoe body has on top speeds of Chris' Tri.

Bill Jacobus

[rayaldridge]

Bill, I'd have to say that the main reason Slider is slow compared to a beach cat or little performance tri is that she only has 140 sq. ft. of sail, and she weighs more. In comparison, a Hobie 16 has 218 sq. ft. Slider's hulls are a little better than 10 to 1, and she goes through the hull speed barrier without any fuss at all, so I think more sail could drive her a lot faster. But then she wouldn't fulfill one of her major design goals-- to provide a relaxing anxiety-free sail. She has flared dory-like hulls in order to acommodate comfortable seats inside. I considered giving her sliding beams, so that I could safely give her more sail area, but that would have made launching her vastly less convenient. With her fixed beam of 8.5 ft, and her short mast, with a forestay set up to be tensioned by a lanyard taken back to a cleat on the forebeam, launching is a matter of dropping her in, putting up the mast (to which boom and mainsail remain attached, and sailing away. I chose simplicity and launching speed over sailing speed, but that choice had other benefits as well. Because her top speed is so much less than a performance oriented multihull, she's a whole lot drier and more comfortable in a chop.

Slider's maximum displacement is 1100 pounds, and empty weight is 480 pounds, so there's room for two adults and a fairly luxurious camping outfit. Because of the difficulty of getting sufficient displacement in such short fine hulls, I gave her more rocker than is optimal for speed. That was another choice in favor of comfort, but it bore dividends, because Slider is the handiest cat I've ever been on. She tacks like a monohull, which is a great comfort in tight situations-- another choice for comfort at the expense of speed.

The most surprising thing I've learned about Slider since we launched her is that she goes to windward quite well. She has a big deep daggerboard, but she doesn't do badly even with the board up. This seems particularly unexpected because I'm sailing her with a home-made polytarp main. And she has a sprit-sloop rig, which doesn't have a reputation for weatherliness (though the reputation appears to be wrong.)

http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/sailjul2sb.jpg

Ray

http://slidercat.com

[uncookedlentil]

My wife and I spent several summers cruising the northern great lakes in a 20x10 foot Shark catamaran.

The same hulls that doomed her from being an olympic contender allowed her to be the perfect beach camping cat. She easily carried two adults, a couple hundred pounds of camping gear and food that included fresh tomatoes, heh.

What we came to realize was that her light weight was our favorite feature.
The boat was secured out of the water and we were warm and dry in front of a campfire.

The campsite that was good for the people was automatically good for the boat also.

Later, when we purchased a Tremolino, due to her weight, we were no longer able to pull out every nite and afternoons were spent looking for that combination of perfect anchorage and reasonable camping. Not so easy and we never really enjoyed the alternate of cooking, sleeping on board, especially in the rain.

Let me recommend the Shark without hesitation.

[rayaldridge]

Oh yeah-- I'd love to have a Shark. Big, beautiful, strong, and fast. If you want to go cruising on a beach cat, I can't think of a better choice.

Of course, there is an alternative to beach cats:

http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/morning3sm.jpg

Where we live along the Gulf coast, it's not always easy to find a place to camp ashore, though it's great to be able to anchor the boat off a remote beach and set up a big tent. But if you're cruising with a flexible agenda and you end up at the end of the day in an area where all the shore is privately owned, then it's nice to be able to set up a tent and a double air mattress aboard. One advantage Slider has over many beach cats is that because she has an archaic rig, with boom jaws rather than a gooseneck, the boom can be hauled way up the mast, and the topping lifts set up, so that you can have standing headroom under a rain fly.

http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/tentsm.jpg



Ray

http://slidercat.com

[Manie B]

Hi guys
i have actually started on my little CRUISING cat
i spent a HUGE amount of time to ensure that my building frame is "TRUE"

I favour the cat for cruising, but i still think that it is cheaper and easier to build a small cabin, tents are pricy.

This build will obviously show a different approach on this subject, which some folks will like, others not. The main thing it is in the name of FUN.

Ray i think that your blog pages are fantastic - keep up the good work.
Please post a couple of close-up pics of your goose neck / boom jaws because this is the way i am going to go as well.

It is rather interesting that two people on other sides of the planet have similar boats, the more i look at Slider the more similarities i see in my build. Thanks - Slider has given me a HUGE boost to get going:D :D :D

[Zilver]

Ray, Manie and others,

Here's an intersting link. Tony Bigras is building a 16' cruising cat with biplane rig. It's almost finished and it looks very good. He'll sail it in a few weeks. I'm very curious about the performance of the boat. I might want to built one for myself.

Anyway here's the link :

http://www.ideaintegrator.com/boats/mc/default.html

Good luck with your boats,

Hans

[Manie B]

Zilver thank you very much for the link.
It is an absolute joy to see the folks building these small FUN boats, **** it makes me feel "normal"

I frikken LOOOOOVE IT

[Chris Ostlind]

Manie,

I get that you are just kickin' it with all this sense of "community" and all, but normal...?

I think that you'll be needing a visa to go there. ;-)

Truthfully, it's interesting what you guys are doing and I can only wish you well in your pursuits. After sailing beach cats for some very long distances along the coast of Baja California, my only suggestion is that you VERY carefully plan your movements with a boat as small as these.

Can it be done? Yeah, sure. With the right timing, careful seamanship and a measure of good fortune, you can go just about anywhere.

I'm looking forward to seeing these boats being exposed to a wider array of conditions with full, going beach cat camping, loads. I would also like to see some vid clips of these size cats after being capsized and the maneuvers required to get them back on their feet. I am not suggesting that this righting business would be a regular event. A carefully sailed small cat should see few circumstances in which a capsize would enter into the mix.... but it does happen and the routine for righting should be understood.

Looking forward to your process, Manie and thanks to Zilver for the link to the boat build. (Zilver, where is that small cat being built?)

Chris

[Trevlyns]

Well done on your efforts so far, Manie! But the dancers must have a bit of a problem dodging all that wood. :D

Your earlier comment about tents being pricey brought back a few memories of the tough times in South Africa. I picked up a nice double for the deck tent at only £12 and a huge 3 roomed 6 man job for camping ashore at under a hundred quid.

Be sure and keep us posted and updated with new pics.

All the best!

[Zilver]

Hello Chris,

I think it is in Canada.
To be clear : I don't know mr. Bigras, I just stumbled upon his site and mailed back and forth a few times about his boat which I find very cute and inspiring.
I did quite a few of coastal cruising trips on small open cata- and trimarans (hobie 16, windrider 16 and wharram tiki 21), and this boat looks like a great alternative to these boats because it gives some shelter while sailing and apart from that I just love the cute and cozy looks.
I hope it will work in practice because the designer already stated that the payload is not very high (500 lbs).

Cheers, Hans

[rayaldridge]

Manie and Hans-- great stuff.

I can certainly understand the urge to have cabins. In any boat, it's nice to have a "below" to go to.

I recently posted a piece on Slider's blog about the list of requirements I drew up when I was thinking about how to build the boat. One of the areas I covered was the whole open boat idea. Among sailors of small monohulls, the pleasures of open boat cruising are well accepted, with literally hundreds of designs and even a fair number of production cruising boats available.

Not so much in the multihull community. The only open boats are beach cats and a few dayboat tris.

There have been some remarkable voyages and cruises made in open monohulls. Consider the Dyes and their North Sea exploits, for example. But there haven't been as many notable cruises in small open multis, and those that have been recorded seem to be more of an ironman stunt than the kind of relaxing sail past unfamiliar shores that is my favorite kind of cruising.

However, a romantic attachment to the pleasures of cruising in an open boat was not the primary motivator for Slider's open cockpits. They actually came about largely because small cats with fine hulls require the crew to move fore and aft with the wind strength, and I couldn't figure out a way to do that with comfortable in-hull seating-- and that also permitted me to have a cabin. Or to put it another way, I could have had a cabin, but in order to have comfortable in-hull seating, all sailing would have had to be done inside, and that seemed a bit claustrophobic to me.

All that said, one big difference between Slider and a beach cat is that most of the crews' bodies are protected from the wind and spray by virtue of being down inside a hull. Only your upper torso and head are out in the wind. This is already vastly more comfortable than a beach cat, even without considering the comfortable ergonomic seating, with back support and feet well below your knees.

Still, heavy air and rain are inevitable, and I hope to deal with these conditions by putting dodgers on both cockpits. These will also allow the off-watch crew to sleep in dry comfort on a pipe berth, under the dodger. The dodgers can be put down in fine weather, don't weigh as much as cabins, and have no windage at all when they're down.

Just a different way to skin a cat, I guess.

Ray

http://slidercat.com

[popperspop]

Hans.......Thank you very much for your post. I particularly enjoyed the Tony
Bigras Site and seeing the photos of Paradox. These were both very thoughtful and creative creations for micro cruisers even for short off-shore
trips.

Bill

[Chris Ostlind]

The case for the small cruising trimaran continued...

I mentioned in a previous post that the amas for my XCR design are easily demountable, allowing the owner to use his vaka hull for a tripping canoe type of application. This gives him the opportunity to paddle upstream through very shallow water.

I left out another, potentially significant use for the boat when configured in yet another way. Take a look at the photos shown below where you can see that the boat is sitting on its trailer for transport. With the outer aka tube section removed from all four locations and the ama reconnected to the center aka tube, the boat is well under trailer legal limits, measuring at 88 inches in beam.

That's great for trailering, but it can provide other options when launched at this width. With a removable motor mount, the boat can be used simply, without sailing rigs, as an extremely stable launch. The launch allows the boat to be used for fishing, cruising a local lake, duck hunting, ferrying supplies quickly to a distant location, etc.

With the motor removed, the boat is also easily paddled like a conventional canoe with near bullet-proof stability. Example: it would take three, average sized adult men, standing directly on the ama to just barely submerge the form, much less get it to the point where the boat would capsize.

Want to take your ageing parents out for a spin and not spook them into a heart attack, while keeping them free of any real chance of getting tossed in the drink? This is the boat that will do that.

If the rigs were to be lashed to the outer ends of the exposed aka tubes to reduce parasitic air drag, the boat could be motored at speed to the far end of a large lake. Once there, the amas could be extended to full length, the rigs hoisted and the boat would then be ready to sail.

So, what you are getting here with this type of design is really three boats in one package. All this with shallow draft capabilities for those times when you have to cross very thin water.

I do not wish to go overboard with all this business about the extreme flexibility of this type of small beach style cruising tri, as I also design small cats. There's an article on Duckworks about one of my catamaran designs, the Gato Especial, that addresses my interest level in small cats for cruising.

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/08/designs/gato/index.htm

Chris

[rayaldridge]

The case for the small cruising trimaran continued...
Want to take your ageing parents out for a spin and not spook them into a heart attack, while keeping them free of any real chance of getting tossed in the drink? This is the boat that will do that.


It's a good observation, and it would do the job pretty well, but I believe a cat like Slider is superior for this particular use, for several reasons.

A big one is that in order for an infirm person to enter the tri's cockpit, they''ll have to scramble over the floats just to reach it, whereas with Slider they can step directly down into the cockpit from the dock, and this direct access even makes it easier to hoist a person from a wheelchair into the seat. In addition, the seats are more comfortable, because the level of the duckboards are an ergonomically correct distance below the seats. The deep cockpits feel much more secure than the cockpits of a canoe or kayak. Also, the cat has more freeboard, and is a much drier ride. A person in Slider's cockpits is better protected from the elements. The stay gives a person something handy to grab when stepping aboard from the dock, and Slider's hulls are so buoyant that she doesn't deflect much under a couple hundred pounds of weight.

It's interesting, because one of the things I thought about when designing Slider is the issue of handicapped access. My mother is quite frail but likes to go sailing. (In fact, she once broke her leg trying to get aboard our 27' cruising yacht.) Anyway, I talked to a couple of paraplegic small boat sailors about the issue, and they both sailed trimarans. You might think this constitutes a vote for trimarans in this niche, but the fact is that they had no alternatives to consider, before Slider came along. They pretty much have to have a seat inside the boat, and there were no tiny cats like that.

Ray

http://slidercat.com

[Chris Ostlind]

Just a few things.

No old person that I know steps comfortably "down" into anything. They may step across to something with some aplomb, but not down. That direction is the reason so many old folks take gas and end up with broken hips and pelvis bones. As you know, that type of injury typically spells the beginning of the end for an old person, often well before their proper time, other circumstances considered.

If you are going to ameliorate the stepping down thing by hand holding and guiding, then it works both ways for each type of boat.

The trimaran can easily be equipped with a suitable, grippy surface between the amas and the vaka hull, making all these points rather moot as to the "scrambling" effect you describe.

Sitting in the outboard hull of a catamaran eight feet wide asks the old person to ride in the part of the boat with greatest pitching and potentially rolling heave moments on the craft. As all of us know, after many hours in boats, pitching and also rolling moments are the biggest contributors to seasickness in any sailor, experienced, or not. Why subject the old people to more than they really need?

Put them, instead, in the center of the center hull of a trimaran and nearly zero-out all of the moments that contribute to the malady. There's a reason why experienced boaters migrate to the lowest, most center point on any boat when they wish to clear their heads of the tossing experiences one can encounter on the water. Outboard, with an aft bias is not that place.

The cockpits of the XCR are plenty deep, putting the crew right down on the waterline, surrounded by nice firm hull panels as well as a partially enclosing deck. On top of the deck is a raised cockpit coaming with a molded, outward flange for deflecting away any spray that might get to the occupants.

My position is that the trimaran is a superior vessel for the business of sailing, motoring or paddling with elder family members as crew.

It's far more than the isolated argument of what to do with old folks, though. A beach style trimaran, such as the XCR, is a far more adaptable, and versatile vessel that can be quickly morphed into a form that is highly developed for the task at hand. I do not see that capability in any catamaran, even the ones that have sliding beams for enhanced beam potential over what is available from the typical trailered width.

In the catamarans of this size, 16 to 21 feet, I see a boat that is very nicely suited for a specific set of design brief elements with very little morphing adaptability in its form. You get what you get and if that suits you, then you are living the high life.

If, however, you want your boat to do something more than its limited mission (and who doesn’t in this day and age of shrinking resources, expensive materials and limited time?) then the prudent person would look hard and long at all the missions that can be performed by the same craft. That craft is the highly adaptable beach cruising trimaran, such as exemplified by the XCR design.

I invite all the readers of this thread to make their own list of potential uses for each boat type. Make a check mark beside each component element that is possible from the two types of craft and see which one has the most checks when you are done. The reality is that the adaptable trimaran, such as the XCR, has way more possibilities and end uses than any fixed beam beach cat could ever have. And it weighs considerably less, which is not inconsequential when it comes time to retrieve the boat and get it on its trailer bunks, or when the time is right to pull the boat up on the beach for the night. 200 lbs. vs 500 lbs. is not insignificant

Chris

[uncookedlentil]

Just to give this debate a tiny nudge in the directional favor of trimarans, folding outriggers may mitigate or eliminate any docking problems attributable to tris.

To my understanding, Ian Farrier's marvelous design is in the public domain and the scissor style used by the Hobie outriggers may not be in patent status due to the homemade versions I've seen over the years.

The one argument I see in solid favor with the tri configuration is that it responds to applications of human power in terms of paddling, rowing, or propeller/bicycle gears propulsion as every thing stays on a symetrical thrust line.

Being rid of the smell of gasoline is no small thing on a wilderness trip and keeping those ugly registration numbers off the side of our boats is an incredible savings in cash and time hassles on the water.

[dsuursoo]

i'll agree, tris are much much easier to power on your own, for whatever reason.

i like them for their stability, and more balanced feel. i'm in the middle of designing and building a 25-30' shallow-drafting tri, that will feature lots of storage and possibly a cuddy-cabin. more likely, i'll just use a specially sewn tarp thrown over the boom and down to the outboard sides of the hiking benches for cover when overnighting. now, i'm aiming for speed and handling stablity first, as i plan to one day solo sail from seattle to juneau, but it's also going to see a lot of puget sound use.

in all the experience i've had, the trimarans feature the most bouyancy for their overall size, without getting oversized in their hulls. they're also much easier to single-hand, which is the main sort of sailing i do.

and my own tris have generally included collapsible booms on the outriggers. i'm thinking a upwards-moving folding type, this time around.

though with the right cat, you can break it down to fit on top of a truck...

[rayaldridge]

Just a few things.

No old person that I know steps comfortably "down" into anything. They may step across to something with some aplomb, but not down.

(snip)

The cockpits of the XCR are plenty deep, putting the crew right down on the waterline, surrounded by nice firm hull panels as well as a partially enclosing deck.

(snip)



I see a bit of a contradiction here. I don't think you can really have it both ways. Either folks have to step down, or they have to sit on top.

Slider's seat rails provide an intermediate step between the duckboards and the side decks, which makes it a little easier.

A problem with the "step across" you describe is that no infirm person is going to take a step that big-- they'll have to step on the float first, and that is going to be a lot less stable than stepping on one of Slider's hulls, which are many times more buoyant than the little tri's floats.

As to motion-- I would think the motion in a light tri would be a lot bouncier than in the heavier, more stable hulls of a cat like Slider. The tri will heel more, as well, and lacks the weight to drive through a modest chop. I assume folks wouldn't be taking elderly folks sailing when the weather is bad, but you can get a foot or two of chop just about any time you go out. Further, a canoe, with its pinched-in stern and wide center, is more prone to pitching than hulls like Slider's, which are designed specifically to damp out pitching. Her sprit sloop rig keeps weight low-- also contributing to her good pitch damping. And as a generality, cruising catamarans are held by most knowledgeable sailors to have a slightly better motion than cruising tris.

I can relate an anecdote in regard to Slider's motion, which to everyone who's been sailing in her seems astonishingly smooth for a 16' boat. My daughter's boyfriend is terribly prone to seasickness. In every other boat he's been on, he's turned green-- in fact he looks a little queasy any time you mention sailing. When we were camping at St. Joe peninsula at the beginning of August, he and my daughter came down to spend a day with us. We finally persuaded him to take a ride in Slider, even though it was blowing pretty hard and there was a lot of chop out on the bay. We put him in the starboard seat, right at the center of rotation, and went out to knock some chop. Even driving to windward at 7 knots through some whitecaps, he was fine. He couldn't stop talking about how stable the ride was. The smoothness is also pretty easy to see in the videos posted on Slider's blog. I do know it's contributed to some early plans sales-- women see my wife sitting comfortably and steering to windward effortlessly and with very little bounce... and they want that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8E0gX9texE

The lightness of the tri is certainly an advantage, if you intend to haul the boat up on a beach every night. But there is a downside to that lightness-- you can't haul as much gear with you. And you do get knocked around more. That's one reason monohulls are often faster than multis in a dying breeze and leftover chop-- they have the weight to keep moving, while a light boat may be stopped frequently.


The convertability of the XCR is also a plus, though I fear that serving two very different purposes may mean that the boat isn't quite as good at the individual tasks as one dedicated to a single purpose. This is usually the case. For example, a small boat designed mainly for rowing is rarely as good at sailing as a boat designed mainly for sailing, and vice versa. But all boats are compromises, and I can certainly see that a person who wanted both a small multi and a canoe in the same package might be very happy with the XCR.

Ray

http://slidercat.com

[rayaldridge]

To my understanding, Ian Farrier's marvelous design is in the public domain and the scissor style used by the Hobie outriggers may not be in patent status due to the homemade versions I've seen over the years.

The one argument I see in solid favor with the tri configuration is that it responds to applications of human power in terms of paddling, rowing, or propeller/bicycle gears propulsion as every thing stays on a symetrical thrust line.



The trouble with the Farrier mechanism is that it's very expensive. The close tolerances required make it less suitable for inexpensive home-built boats, unless you happen to be a machinist with a well-equipped shop. For the cost of one set of Farrier folding beams, you could build a whole fleet of Sliders, and probablyt several larger versions.

One thing I wonder about human-powered tris is that if you have side nets, where do you paddle? If you don't have side nets, then you have no more deck space than a canoe does. A Mirage drive might be a great thing to put in a tri. I've heard good things about Hobie's Adventure Island kayak-based tris in that regard.

I will say that a tri has an advantage when mounting an outboard, because it can often be placed on the broader transom of a tri, whereas with a cat, it often has to be placed on the rear crossbeam, where it is more exposed to spray and waves.

Ray

http://slidercat.com

[dsuursoo]

my own trimarans typically have no nets past the aft crossbeams. since i myself have a fair bit of deck, if i'm willing to sit on the cockpit lip, i have no trouble paddling.

of course, my trampolines are also built for easy take down.

and you do bring a good point up about the light weight of a multihull impacting its inertia. i've myself found that the extremely generous stability allows for a larger than normal sailplan that can catch even the lightest puffs, when set properly. for my next build, i've been considering controlled flooding in the outriggers and main hull, to give it the mass to punch in heavy seas, and the enhanced inertia monohulls enjoy. a little complexity(less than you'd think, i was suprised by how elegant it got when i started drawing the plumbing), and it really pays off. and as a bonus, since i'm not single-handed racing the boat, it doesn't need to be a ridiculously high-flow setup, like it did on the... experiment...

yeah, that just wasn't right. 400 gallons per minute, that takes some big plumbing and a LOT of power.

[Chris Ostlind]

I see a bit of a contradiction here. I don't think you can really have it both ways. Either folks have to step down, or they have to sit on top.


In reality, Ray, it's very much the same motion for entry as you describe for your boat.
A zero sum comparison point.


As to motion-- I would think the motion in a light tri would be a lot bouncier than in the heavier, more stable hulls of a cat like Slider. The tri will heel more, as well, and lacks the weight to drive through a modest chop. I assume folks wouldn't be taking elderly folks sailing when the weather is bad, but you can get a foot or two of chop just about any time you go out.


Well, take a look at the URL video clip link supplied above and tell me if the boat heels more. That clip shows the XCR in 15 knots of steady wind, 18-19 gusting and I don’t really see your point about heeling. It also looks to be driving through chop quite effectively, so, again, please tell me what the point might be.


Further, a canoe, with its pinched-in stern and wide center, is more prone to pitching than hulls like Slider's, which are designed specifically to damp out pitching.


Well, a canoe hull, all by itself is prone to pitching potential due to the double-ended effect, as you suggest. Unfortunately, that does not apply to a tri design with properly executed ama forms. Just as you mention that Slider’s hulls are formed to resist pitching, the same is true for the amas on the XCR. Since they are carried aft to within one foot of the stern stem, the potential for pitching is virtually eliminated. I say virtually because no boat is immune to pitching, even yours, Ray. They all do it.



The lightness of the tri is certainly an advantage, if you intend to haul the boat up on a beach every night. But there is a downside to that lightness-- you can't haul as much gear with you. And you do get knocked around more.


Perhaps that could be an issue, Ray, if...

1. You feel like you need to have a lot of gear. XCR owners typically travel responsibly light to minimize impact on remote cruising locations, maintain a shallow draft signature for the ability to go well into extremely shallow waters and also… to fulfill the performance promise of the typical trimaran.

Remember… every bit of gear at the launch removes that claim for a speedy transition on the ramp just a little bit more. Put the gear in the boat for the drive to the lake to speed things up and the hull will take an unnecessary beating on the highway. A guy watching out for his boat would likely carry this gear pile in the vehicle and load it once the boat has been launched.

So, just how much stuff are you hauling around while still keeping a satisfactory performance envelope? Like you said, you can't have it both ways.

2. There is considerable reserve displacement in the XCR, so the boat is capable of far more weight hauling, such as when one wants to stock pile a base camp on the other side of a very big body of water.

The knocking around part depends on the guy steering the boat, just like any craft in the same conditions.



That's one reason monohulls are often faster than multis in a dying breeze and leftover chop-- they have the weight to keep moving, while a light boat may be stopped frequently.



Are you suggesting that your boat is not also a lightweight? I have read the claims and even when loaded to a point where it is quite a bit heavier than the XCR, Slider is still not as a heavy as a keeled mono. A note: I have seen Hobie 21SC’s, designed for cruising as we are discussing and every bit as heavy, if not heavier than the Slider, being bounced in a three foot cross chop. So, I’d like to know where you would next send this component of the discussion?



The convertibility of the XCR is also a plus, though I fear that serving two very different purposes may mean that the boat isn't quite as good at the individual tasks as one dedicated to a single purpose. This is usually the case. For example, a small boat designed mainly for rowing is rarely as good at sailing as a boat designed mainly for sailing, and vice versa. But all boats are compromises, and I can certainly see that a person who wanted both a small multi and a canoe in the same package might be very happy with the XCR.


The convertibility is more than a plus. It is the very essence of the design's success. A canoe is a unique hull form with a great deal of historic adaptation study to develop the form to its current iteration. The reason that so many recreational boaters turn to a form like this for a wide range of boating needs is that it is so versatile. Hunters, fishermen, birdwatchers, lake trippers, river runners, sailors... and the list goes on and on.

I once held the same opinion that you put forth here, Ray and for most hull styles what you say is quite true. A sailing/paddling or sailing/rowing design usually has an identity crisis of some type. Famed Canadian canoe and kayak designer, John Winters, who put forth a lot of effort to teach me some of the art of design back when I started, once told me that a sailing sea kayak was neither fish nor fowl. Canoes, though, are really quite different and with but a few very small, but critical modifications in hull form, they can be turned into a truly remarkable craft with shining salient points that have been well described within this thread.

My original forays into the boat design arena, some nine/ten years ago were in the sailing sea kayak end of the spectrum. I used to be a fairly serious sea kayaker and because I had also raced multihulls, I wanted a sail rig and portable stowable amas to be able to cover larger distances when the wind was up. I quickly found that my rigs and aka/ama setups were easily adapted to many models of canoes in the marketplace.

When I sailed the first canoe version of my rig, I was knocked flat with the amazing versatility of the design and application potential. In fact, my very first sailing canoe (based on a Wenonah Spirit II hull) is still in full operation today. It has made a circumnavigation of SoCal's Catalina Island from a mainland put-in (26 mile crossing in a beam sea) and I felt safe, in control and fully satisfied with the adventure. It was one of the remarkable "doh" moments that inspired the eventual XCR design.

There is one more thing that I have left out of the discussion.

How much success have you had with Slider as a car topped craft?

Can it be car topped at all without exceeding the load rating of the typical roof racks? If it were to be car topped by some very strong and very stubborn owners, would it require a custom built rack for load support? If not easily car-toppable, then that means that the person owning your boat will be responsible for storage of a trailer and a boat. Live in an apartment? Then that puts an additional onus on the guy who wants to own one.

The XCR and all its components easily fit in the typical single, or double car garage with room underneath for a car(s). Yes.... the whole beautiful dude can be hoisted from the rafters of the garage, leaving the floor clear. One of those bitchin' silent benefits for having a really light, component oriented design.

Hang a Slider from the rafters...? Hmmmm, better check with the local building codes for span ratings and nominal lumber sizing.

It all comes back to this very simple point... It all depends on what you are looking for in a small beach style cruiser and how that design idiom looks to your eye and expectations.

One is not better than the other and there's nothing more to say.

Thanks for the great thread, Ray and good luck with your great little cat.

Chris

[rayaldridge]

One is not better than the other and there's nothing more to say.


Chris


I have a different point of view: that one is always better than the other, mainly because one is always different from the other, which implies a difference in goodness as well. If some boats are not better than other boats, what reason is there to draw new boats?

Ray

http://slidercat.com

[uncookedlentil]

One thing I wonder about human-powered tris is that if you have side nets, where do you paddle?

Tramps can be managed by mainsail slugs and a couple of continuous loops for and aft on the tramp if you're rowing a tri, or in the case of paddling couples, the tramp could be left permanent between beams and sliding hatches for and aft give normal paddling stations, ends are for lite stowage anyway due to avoiding pitching problems.

The first person I met at a long ago wooden boat show was a slender woman who had just finished rowing a dory to Alaska and back during the summer.
Due to her sliding seat, she was able to stay comfortable in even the breeziest weather whereas her kayak partner was continually having to dress up and down.

she also grumped about the racing kayak's ability to keep up and it ended up being her responsibility to set up camp every nite while waiting for him to get caught up and regain the use of his legs. :)

[dsuursoo]

as i said, i paddle from back aft. you know, behind the side nets.

ray, i notice you're more or less sold on your cat being 'the best', and for a lot of people, yeah, that's what they're going to want.

me, i like what i've got on the drawing board now. lean, fast, unsinkable(unless i really screw up), able to field a massive sail area to take advantage of even tiny breezes, single-handed by design rather than modification, light, trailerable without any fuss, and still features storage to go a thousand miles without stopping(except maybe for water if i don't feel like evaporating my own)

and you know what? it's a tri. yes, that slider sure does look fun, but it's not the boat i need, because it doesn't fit what i want to do. in other words, not the best for me. that doesn't make it better than my tri, it's not worse, either. it's just not what i need. it's not that one boat is better than another, it's that it's more suited to a particular task.

but i will say, the surest way to not win anyone over to a viewpoint is to beat them in the face repeatedly with it.

[northerncat]

love the look of the small osram, wonder if it wont be too heavy for the size though?
sean

[rayaldridge]

it's just not what i need. it's not that one boat is better than another, it's that it's more suited to a particular task.

but i will say, the surest way to not win anyone over to a viewpoint is to beat them in the face repeatedly with it.

Sure. My contention is not that tiny cats are better than tiny tris in all ways. It's that (I believe) they're better for a specific narrow purpose-- beachcruising. It's sometimes difficult to argue the point, however, when there are so few cats like Slider for comparison purposes. Most folks have never seen one. It was, I can tell you, even harder to argue the point before Slider existed, because it was sometimes impossible to get people to even imagine a cat like Slider. A lot of folks told me that if a boat like that was such a great idea, someone else would have already built one.

Your tri sounds fine to me, and has many advantages over Slider. Sorry if I'm overenthusiastic in my advocacy. I think there's a natural tendency to love a boat you've built, even more likely when it's a boat you designed-- and almost irresistable when you've been told a thousand times that the idea behind the boat was stupid.

When the boat in question turns out great, there's a strong motivation to spread the word. Much of the impetus for the design came from my observation that there were plenty of little tris that were more or less suitable for beachcruising (have you seen the videos Jim Brown made on camping in Baja with Windriders?) This seemed strange to me, because in larger sizes, there seemed to be a widely-held belief that cats are more comfortable than tris for cruising-- though I know not everyone feels this way. It struck me that this should be even more defensible a viewpoint in the smallest sizes, at least on the basis of comfort-- but no one appeared to think this way but me. Or at least, if anyone felt the same way, they haven't translated those feelings into a boat.

Ray

http://slidercat.com

[dsuursoo]

Sure. My contention is not that tiny cats are better than tiny tris in all ways. It's that (I believe) they're better for a specific narrow purpose-- beachcruising. It's sometimes difficult to argue the point, however, when there are so few cats like Slider for comparison purposes. Most folks have never seen one. It was, I can tell you, even harder to argue the point before Slider existed, because it was sometimes impossible to get people to even imagine a cat like Slider. A lot of folks told me that if a boat like that was such a great idea, someone else would have already built one.

Your tri sounds fine to me, and has many advantages over Slider. Sorry if I'm overenthusiastic in my advocacy. I think there's a natural tendency to love a boat you've built, even more likely when it's a boat you designed-- and almost irresistable when you've been told a thousand times that the idea behind the boat was stupid.

When the boat in question turns out great, there's a strong motivation to spread the word. Much of the impetus for the design came from my observation that there were plenty of little tris that were more or less suitable for beachcruising (have you seen the videos Jim Brown made on camping in Baja with Windriders?) This seemed strange to me, because in larger sizes, there seemed to be a widely-held belief that cats are more comfortable than tris for cruising-- though I know not everyone feels this way. It struck me that this should be even more defensible a viewpoint in the smallest sizes, at least on the basis of comfort-- but no one appeared to think this way but me. Or at least, if anyone felt the same way, they haven't translated those feelings into a boat.

Ray

http://slidercat.com


heh, i don't know if thirty feet is 'tiny'.

and i'll agree that it's hard to not shout the praises of something that's yours, from idea to sailing, all the way. i've felt that way more than once, i totally understand being excited about the slider(and i have to say, it's actually rather put together. not exactly what i myself need, but it'll fulfill a suprisingly wide selection of people's needs).

and it's true, when you get down to the 'pack it in the back of the truck/on top of the car', zip about the shore, have fun with it for a day or two, a little ten or fifteen foot, trampoline top tri is going to be more stable, that's inherent. cats match tris for stability once you get up above probably about 20-30 feet, when you're building for performance. the slider's not really about that, but i'm sure it gets up a good turn under the right conditions.

but then, when you're at that point, a cat has the advantage of simplicity. one less hull, and a bit less weight(which is also a disadvantage), and that can come with an easier takedown/setup.

but the trimaran's greater weight comes with advantages.

more stability-i've seen(and been on) beachcats that would capsize on the beam in high winds when i was a teenager in hawaii. it happens fast in a cat, thanks to that trampoline in the middle. netting eliminates this, really, but then it's not too comfortable to sail on. trimarans have the advantage because of the weight of the center hull, and the slots created by the trampoline meeting that hull. it gives you the time to get to the windward side, as well as dumping the lifting air.

more displacement- yes, the slider's got a fair bit of capacity, all told. 600 pounds of design payload is pretty good. but in a little cat, there's only so much displacement before you're swamped. trimarans in the same size class(remember, 15-foot trampoline top) will generally have more displacement, with a corresponding increase in capacity.

but cats have their own advantages in the same size class.

weight- this can, in the small cats, often make for great performance under sail. not always matching the trimarans, because of the greater drag imposed by greater wetted surface(that damnable displacement again), but it also makes for something easier to get up and down the beach, even by yourself(as a note, my own tri is going to be a bit of a bear. i can drag that sort of weight around, but it's not easy).

greater crew space- in a trampoline top, the cat has its connecting struts generally further spread apart than a trimaran. this tends to add extra space for the crew to move on, and work from. some tris make up for this with fore and aft nets, but it's generally not the same thing. as a note, in my own trimaran, i'm not planning on either, i know i'm giving up some space, but i can live with that.

but once you get above a certain minimum size(i haven't quite got that nailed down, but it's at least 20-25 feet), catamaran and trimaran advantages and disadvantages tend to more or less cancel out, and things become much more of a preference thing entirely.

but as it's always said, it's based entirely on what you need/want to get out of your design. in mine, i want speed and stability, single-handed crewing, and generous capacity and unsinkabiltity.

but you've got some comfort advantages that i won't have, in the slider. and that's a plus. if it gets snotty out, or if i'm open ocean sailing, i'm probably going to need a drysuit. that, and what looks like rather reasonable(some would call it tame) handling, and a very simple catboat sailplan are some very strong points to the slider. as far as taking the family and small kids out, it's well thought out.

but i myself wouldn't take it on open ocean trips(at least, anything more than a few hours), or on endurance races. that's more where my own will come in very handy. between a hull that's primarily given over to displacement(almost totally sealed, save for storage sections), outriggers that are intended for low drag when submerged, and a very fine L/B ratio(about 13-1 for the main hull when loaded, closer to 20-1 for the outriggers), and a shallow draft, kick up rudder and centerboards, and reasonably light in weight. yeah, i'm building an endurance racer and adventure boat. you've built(and quite well) a family daytripper.

much different parameters really.

but the above, discussing small beachboats is my own perspective on the debate.

[rayaldridge]

(snip)

more displacement- yes, the slider's got a fair bit of capacity, all told. 600 pounds of design payload is pretty good. but in a little cat, there's only so much displacement before you're swamped. trimarans in the same size class(remember, 15-foot trampoline top) will generally have more displacement, with a corresponding increase in capacity.

(snip)

but i myself wouldn't take it on open ocean trips(at least, anything more than a few hours), or on endurance races. that's more where my own will come in very handy. between a hull that's primarily given over to displacement(almost totally sealed, save for storage sections), outriggers that are intended for low drag when submerged, and a very fine L/B ratio(about 13-1 for the main hull when loaded, closer to 20-1 for the outriggers), and a shallow draft, kick up rudder and centerboards, and reasonably light in weight. yeah, i'm building an endurance racer and adventure boat. you've built(and quite well) a family daytripper.

much different parameters really.

but the above, discussing small beachboats is my own perspective on the debate.

You're right-- they are very different parameters. Your boat sounds very interesting. That's going to be a speedburner. Do you plan to race her in the EC?

I'd have to disagree that many 16 foot tris will have more displacement available than Slider. Most of the little tris have quite a bit less, especially if they have fine hulls. I suppose this is because a cat can divide its displacement between two hulls and a tri must carry it all in one. A tri has to be longer to have the same displacement and the same hull fineness as a cat of similar displacement, and this is true all the way up the scale. Farrier's tris are something of an exception to this rule; he uses fatter hulls than most tri designers.

I'm no expert boatbuilder, and I used southern yellow pine for my solid timber and a relatively heavy plywood for planking. A good boatbuilder ought to be able to get Slider's weight down below 400 lbs. But even at 500 lbs lightship weight, that's 600 lbs of capacity. Compare that to the Windrider 16's 500 lbs (and that's pretty optimistic-- the sales brochures say it's ideal for an adult and a child.) Slider can handle overloading a lot better than a lot of little multis, too, because of her flared hulls and substantial freeboard. A Windrider 16 with 500 lbs on it will be riding mighty low in the water-- imagine a couple of big fat guys on one and you get the picture.

I'd have to disagree with your description of Slider as a family daytripper, since she was built as an open cruising boat for two. Almost every aspect of her design embodies the idea of overnight trips. For example, she has a slat center deck of cedar, because that's more comfortable for sleeping on than a tramp, at least for two people. Two people on a tramp tend to roll downhill to the center, where they jam up against each other. The deck is heavier than a tramp, but I accepted the weight so that she would be more useful as a cruiser. Another example is the dry storage under the forward decks-- open would have been lighter, but less suitable to cruising. The modest rig is a concession to cruising. It's fun to go fast, but not much fun to capsize when you have a lot of important and expensive gear aboard. Had Slider been designed as a daysailer, I'd have put a bigger rig on her. For daysailing, it's okay to spend an afternoon with your hands on the sheets. For cruising, not so much. I want to be able to cleat off my sheets in good weather. Slider's hulls are many times more buoyant than any beach cat's so if she goes over, you won't be able to right her without help.

http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/beachedsm.jpg

Ray

http://slidercat.com

[dsuursoo]

You're right-- they are very different parameters. Your boat sounds very interesting. That's going to be a speedburner. Do you plan to race her in the EC?

I'd have to disagree that many 16 foot tris will have more displacement available than Slider. Most of the little tris have quite a bit less, especially if they have fine hulls. I suppose this is because a cat can divide its displacement between two hulls and a tri must carry it all in one. A tri has to be longer to have the same displacement and the same hull fineness as a cat of similar displacement, and this is true all the way up the scale. Farrier's tris are something of an exception to this rule; he uses fatter hulls than most tri designers.

I'm no expert boatbuilder, and I used southern yellow pine for my solid timber and a relatively heavy plywood for planking. A good boatbuilder ought to be able to get Slider's weight down below 400 lbs. But even at 500 lbs lightship weight, that's 600 lbs of capacity. Compare that to the Windrider 16's 500 lbs (and that's pretty optimistic-- the sales brochures say it's ideal for an adult and a child.) Slider can handle overloading a lot better than a lot of little multis, too, because of her flared hulls and substantial freeboard. A Windrider 16 with 500 lbs on it will be riding mighty low in the water-- imagine a couple of big fat guys on one and you get the picture.

I'd have to disagree with your description of Slider as a family daytripper, since she was built as an open cruising boat for two. Almost every aspect of her design embodies the idea of overnight trips. For example, she has a slat center deck of cedar, because that's more comfortable for sleeping on than a tramp, at least for two people. Two people on a tramp tend to roll downhill to the center, where they jam up against each other. The deck is heavier than a tramp, but I accepted the weight so that she would be more useful as a cruiser. Another example is the dry storage under the forward decks-- open would have been lighter, but less suitable to cruising. The modest rig is a concession to cruising. It's fun to go fast, but not much fun to capsize when you have a lot of important and expensive gear aboard. Had Slider been designed as a daysailer, I'd have put a bigger rig on her. For daysailing, it's okay to spend an afternoon with your hands on the sheets. For cruising, not so much. I want to be able to cleat off my sheets in good weather. Slider's hulls are many times more buoyant than any beach cat's so if she goes over, you won't be able to right her without help.

http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/beachedsm.jpg

Ray

http://slidercat.com

if you're referring to the everglades challenge- i wish! that'd be a blast. and since the total boat weight, with rigging, no payload, no rider, should come in at ~450lbs or so, but probably scare the hell out of 500. i'm thinking that's about it, maybe a touch heavier. but, being in seattle, it's a bit of a long trip, but i could always take it down through panama....:D

hm. i always built my outriggers for a fair bit of bouyancy, when i was making beach tris when i were a young guy trying to impress girls with my sailing. so maybe it was personal design that led to tris with more displacement capacity.

and i can see how you got a fairly high weight on the slider, you really built that puppy to last, huh? talk about heavy construction... i'm going to use primarily 4 and six millimeter ply, with fiberglass for strength. thusly the light weight.

and yes, the slider does have some generous capacity, so for overnighting, yes, definetly fits that bill. i suppose my estimation of it as a daytripper is based on size and rig, since i didn't know quite enough about the construction.

hm. do you have any sealed bouyancy in the slider? that was one of my large design requirements for my tri(thinking of calling it 'immigrant son'-if you know your classic rock, you'll get the joke), having unfloodable sections. in the main hull alone i've got close to 30 cubic feet(without the plans on hand it's hard to say, could be as low as 20) of sealed airtight space, that i might also use an expanded foam on. so i've got somewhere in the vicinity of 1500 pounds of displacement that i can never overcome. i've done this before in a boat, a catamaran actually, and we had the hulls totally under, and the trampoline more or less awash, and still creeped it home. i'm hoping to have at least 15 cubic feet of volume that can't be flooded in the outriggers as well.

i do know that a outrigger of the dimensions i use displaces somewhere around 1600 pounds of water, in salt. so hopefully, i'm going to have plenty of capacity, and add to that the unsinkable factor i'm trying to build in. that sealed displacement i talked about is going to be divided into subsections independent of each other-it's actually one of the reasons it's going to weigh in at 400+ pounds. but unless i smash it to bits on a cliff, i'm gonna be able to come home, even if i have to disconnect the outriggers and turn those into a catamaran and get home on that. a fun note about those outriggers- i'm putting a fair bit of tumblehome on them, so they'll hopefully be low drag if i do manage to heel the boat past 18 degrees or so(possibly 20+, not sure yet) and actually submerge them.

the vaka's not designed to separate and be an independent boat(which is a slick idea, actually) as mentioned earlier, but it can collapse down to a fairly narrow planform.

i suppose where we're going with this is that you've put together a fair campout boat with some anyone-friendly characteristics and comfortable stability, and i'm putting together a bit of a adventurer's boat.

and i'll admit this: cat, tri, they're both fun on the beach, when it's a set of tube hulls bolted or lashed to two pipes with a canvas or tarp stretched between them, and a nice gunter sail. when you're a kid, that's all you need. the tri tends to do better in races, when all skill is equal, but if you know how to handle it, a cat can really get up and move, and can be frankly more exciting when it heels over.

and at least the way i always put them together, cats tended towards lighter, but i built my amas for flotation on the trimarans i made as a kid.

as a note: if you're looking for a quick and dirty cat/tri for going to the beach in the summer, or making a little peewee for the kids, you can't go wrong with closed cell foam, shaped and then glassed. simple, tough, and really easy to make.

same technique as surfboards, actually. similar to foam cored sandwich, but not as fancy. try it sometime. build up glass in areas that might be stressed more, and if you're really looking for simple, a tarp suffices for a deck.

were i better with cad, i'd sketch it up and show you what i'm talking about for layout. it's actually a blast to make them. trimarans have the advantage of having attachment points for a headsail, or, if you're like me, a headsail and a staysail, if you put the mast back some. i always liked trimarans for the fact that you could really cram some sail onto them, and they'd usually forgive you once you got into the wind, and you take off like a rocket.

ever see three teenagers on a 25' trimaran with three square rigged masts? i have. god that was a fun day, but holy crap we heeled over. ultimately it couldn't handle the pounding that three feet of surf gave it at 20+ knots. we managed to get a tow back from some guys in a fishing boat, but wow, those were some stories we got out of it. if i ever find the pictures, i'll share.

[rayaldridge]

I'd love to see drawings.

I think your characterization of Slider as a camp-out boat for comfort-oriented cruisers is fair. The idea was to get the most luxury possible out of a 16 foot cat. I wanted to be able to trail the boat anywhere with a compact car, put it in the water, raise the mast, and be away in five minutes or so. I think that shorter time at the ramp is one of the big advantages a small cat has over a small tri.

I'd also agree with you that in most circumstances, a tri will be faster than a cat of similar displacement.

Ray

http://slidercat.com

[dsuursoo]

I'd love to see drawings.

I think your characterization of Slider as a camp-out boat for comfort-oriented cruisers is fair. The idea was to get the most luxury possible out of a 16 foot cat. I wanted to be able to trail the boat anywhere with a compact car, put it in the water, raise the mast, and be away in five minutes or so. I think that shorter time at the ramp is one of the big advantages a small cat has over a small tri.

I'd also agree with you that in most circumstances, a tri will be faster than a cat of similar displacement.

Ray

http://slidercat.com

yeah, that lower wetted surface is the real key, i think. even when heeling over, the tri tends to have less hull in the water.

and yeah, i'll give the slider that, setup would be a lot faster than immigrant son, since i'd have to get it in the water, then extend the outriggers, then lift the masts, then set the stays, then load it, THEN paddle out and set sails.

and from your description of how slider's built, you can probably load a bit of gear in it before you ever hit the water.

if i can ever get the drawings scanned and cleaned up, i'd be more than happy to post some. i'm trying to design this boat to be as simple and solid as possible, while still being put together mostly with hand tools.

now, since i brought it up in my last post, anyone have any suggestions for design features in a beach cat/tri, given the construction techniques i've mentioned(shaped foam solid hulls, fiberglass coated) before?

here, let's try design the optimal beach/overnight camping(not more than two, sorry ray, the slider's out of the running, as is immigrant son), go explore/impress the girls, have-fun-with-it beach multihull.

actually, that might be better done in another post? votes on that anyone?

[peterwebb0]

Have you seen the new Astus 22.1 trimaran (http://www.exaqua.co.uk/trimaran_astus_22.1.php)? I think that's one level up in beach camping in comfort.

Cheers,
Pete

http://www.exaqua.co.uk/images/gallery/221/_DSCF2684_.jpg

http://www.exaqua.co.uk/images/gallery/221/_DSCF2631_.jpg

http://www.exaqua.co.uk/images/gallery/221/astus-22_01.jpg

[Manie B]

beautifull boat - great design

far out frikken expensive

you will NEVER see one anywhere in Africa

28 000 pounds ?????

[Fanie]

I agree with Manie.

Good grief, that is a bit over.

[rayaldridge]

Slider video

I just put up a new video-- the first part of my solo cruise in late
September.

EmQJOqJwhvY

There's some footage of porpoises near Fort McRee, which is across
Pensacola Bay from Pensacola. This area is within a couple hours
sailing time from Pensacola and Gulf Breeze, but is still pretty wild
and undeveloped, especially if you have a shallow-draft boat without
an internal combustion motor. The remnants of Fort McRee are really
only accessible by boat or via a long drive by 4WD from Perdido Key.
No roads, no condos, only a few boaters. I was all alone in the
backwater behind the fort on Thursday night and Friday morning.

I'm still learning how to use my new video cam, and I must warn you
that watching my shaky camera work might result in convulsions. But
there's a corresponding post on the blog, if you don't want to risk it..

Ray

http://slidercat.com

[Zilver]

Tony Bigras has completed his microcat 16' MISS CINDY about which I posted earlier on in this thread.
He's transported her to Mexico on the roof of an old car to go sailing there.
His humorous and inspiring blog can be seen here :

http://www.ideaintegrator.com/boats/tmc/default.html

I think it's a beautiful, cool, clever and cozy boat. I like his way of just doing things out of the ordinary.

Regards, Hans

[Fanie]

Hey Hans,

I cannot but agree with you, that is a cute little boat ! Haven't seen anything so impressive in a long time. Especially the trailer ;)

Very impressive indeed. Where do we give him points ?

[rayaldridge]

Isn't that a terrific little boat! I've been checking the blog every day. I hope he gets to another WIFI point soon, because I'm really enjoying the story.

I think it sheds a lot of light on the subject of this thread. Show me a 16 foot cruising tri with that combination of room and performance. And Miss Cindy doesn't need demounting.

Ray

http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress/

[dstgean]

Little cats are the treat for quick launching. Rigs must be kept managable as a cruising load will render most cats impossible to right. Folding tris are fantasitc as well if they have the folding system dialed in. I wonder if an asymetrical cat might be a nifty way to keep righting possible on somewhat larger cats in the low 20' range--keep all stores, camping equiptment, personal effects in one hull and keep the other one really light and right it with the lighter hul coming over the top. I'm interested in a jumbo beachcat based open cruiser at about 20-21'. I either need to make the cruiser darn near impossible to capsize with a smaller rig like Ray used, make it wider with the attendent trouble some of the cat sliding systems/awkward trailering, or make it easy as a beachcat to right.

Thoughts?

Dan

[BWD]

D. StG
Asso style :cool:
yeah, Berque it!

http://www.creartisto.com/sansboussole/bateau_en.html

[dstgean]

Thanks BWD,

I've read through that site, and I already have a tacking outrigger!

Dan

[rayaldridge]

Dan, you might be interested in an idea for extending Slider's beam that one of my Italian plans buyers came up with, and was kind enough to let me publish.

http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress/?p=91

Look down the page; the first part is really just an explanation for why I decided to offer plans for Slider.

I suspect that if you were to extend the beam to 10 feet, you might be able to get away with using a beach cat rig and still have a reasonable degree of stability. No cat is immune to capsize, of course, but some rigs are more sensible than others.

[jamez]

You're unlikely to get equivalent payload in a 16 foot tri without designing a main hull so fat it would effectively be a float stabilised mono. The point I think, is not to try. Heres a nice little micro cruising tri from aussie designer Ray Kendrick. In the cabin it has comfortable seating which converts to a (tight) double berth, space for a portaloo and to cook. Its designed weight is around 440lbs with a payload to dwl of 330lbs. As a beach cruising tri, that still has the potential for exciting sailing performance (the prototype has been clocked at over 13 knots) I think this is a pretty good compromise.

http://www.teamscarab.com.au/Scarab16.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irHGStdhQK8&feature=related

[dstgean]

Dan, you might be interested in an idea for extending Slider's beam that one of my Italian plans buyers came up with, and was kind enough to let me publish.

http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress/?p=91

Look down the page; the first part is really just an explanation for why I decided to offer plans for Slider.

I suspect that if you were to extend the beam to 10 feet, you might be able to get away with using a beach cat rig and still have a reasonable degree of stability. No cat is immune to capsize, of course, but some rigs are more sensible than others.

Although I've read your entire site many times, I never saw that section! I like it. I think one of the trailers that has the raised center section for pontoon boat might be the ticket for such a craft. It's a different mechanism than the Shark, but a good one. I like it. I've seen the Woods designs, of course, with a substantially larger version of that concept, which promises good performance and speedy assembly. For some reason i hadn't thought of it for this boat building process. I keep coming back to the Double tamanu canoe at 10-12' beam using the H18 rig. It would be speedy, not fast like a beachcat, but quick enough. Reef the main to keep the pressure off the rig in a blow, and reuse as many of the parts as possible to keep the build fast and costs down.

I am also talking with Chris O about some strip/ply hulls instead of the Tamanu hulls, but that has yet to be finalized. Either way, I'm about ready to get going!

Dan

[ThomD]

"I think it sheds a lot of light on the subject of this thread. Show me a 16 foot cruising tri with that combination of room and performance. And Miss Cindy doesn't need demounting."

Well apaprently she needs roof racking! The thing about a tri is that it can be longer than a 16 foot cat, it seems to me. In fact, when dealing with trailerable boats, the 16 foot limit doesn't make much sense to me except for the fact that it allows one to claim a 50% beam on a trailerable fixed width cat. And it all fits in a plywood module. I think that is a great option in the form of a Jarcat, or Economy Cruiser, Miss Cidy, etc... I think that we will also see some cats over that length that don't sail like dogs, and take advantage of the trail blazed by the G32. I have one on my drawing board, but I am currently rethinking my decision to go hard chine due to weight. The idea is to get up to the H18 rig with a boat that has the 8' width, water ballast and self righting, but in my case not a lot more performance than the 16 footers, just clean them up a bit. I know at least one guy who wants high performance and is going to 26 feet. As long as they stay with the launching, storing, trailering ease of the 16 footers, I think they are still "little".

I do get scared at the thought of all the tech such cat projects require. When that happens I think center cockpit tris with enough space for a decent aft berth. Shorter fatter Trems. There comes a point when the format of the Farrier or Dragonfly type thing gets too short, you sit in the back, the bow goes up in the air. Most of the accomodation space is wasted (no wing berths and the center hull is nasty narrow). On the positive, the amas get small enough for one person to move. When that point comes I think the center cockpit demountable amas with one person hand raiseable spar option, become a real contender. What they don't offer is the so called 4 berths of a Jarcat. But the reality is a lot of this stuff is solo anyway. Daysail with a few, overnightign is one guy and someone not more than 100 pounds. Mostly cruise solo. I think the tri starts to be a contender on those terms. Just depends what you need.

[edvb]

This has been a great discusion on small camping multihulls. One other option are the ideas I incorperated on my outrigger sailling canoe. Like Chris I wanted to setup and be ready to sail quickly. I wanted stability in heavy air and be able to go in shallow water.

By modifying a Raptor 16, I was able to meet these goals.

I built a small trailer to haul the boat and now I only have to put the mast on the mast base, pull the lines tight and I am ready to sail. Time is less than five minutes.

Roller furling sail with removable stays will let me optimize my 90 Sq Ft fully battened sail.

Daggerboard and being able to lower or raise the rudder lets me paddle in the shallowest water of about 6"

Water ballast in the ama with the roller furled sail makes it very stable in heavy air. I removed the Bruce foil as it was no longer needed.

Very easy to right even from a turtle position.

Will carry all the camping gear needed to be comfortable.

Did I say fast ;)

Like many others here you get a lot of ideas of what you want and need in a boat. For what I do this works perfect for me but it took a few years to iron out all the bugs. Just to show what can be done even with existing boats.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/evanbelkom/Raptor%202009/Picture034.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHR7mg5LBz0

[bill broome]

i enjoyed this thread because self build boats can be narrow and even strange, having to satisfy only one person.

mixing strider hulls and j6 accomodation is a very charming idea, and ross turner suggested one way to do it with his j7. it would have been much better as a 6 meter boat, in my view, the j7 is too slow at launch/retrieve.

i am a recent convert to tris, in the 6,7 meter range. you get a human sized hull without the need for a central deck assembly, and if the ayas are foldable, launch/retrieve time almost as good as a one-piece cat.

as for gunk-holing, i just tow a kayak.

[dstgean]

as for gunk-holing, i just tow a kayak.

I saw another H18 do that on the first T200 and they had lots of problems with yawing and broaching of the yak. How have you done with yours?

This last year we did the T200 in a double Tamanu with the H 18 rig, tramp and beams. The beams were not up to the task, but we made it...

Admittedly it was the first time we put the boat together, but it took forever. I'm leaning towards the 8'6" version for the future.

Dan

[bill broome]

can't help much about towing, never had any problem, 5kts or 15.

my kayak was[stolen, somebody else liked it even more] directionally stable, with 3 full length ribs, and maybe that was the answer. play with the tow length, of course.

making a single outrigger work can't be easy, i would have said impossible till i see this raptor coping with fast tacks. there is some slick pickup and dumping of water ballast there.

[edvb]

Bill

On that video I just added about a 1/2 tank of ballast and left it in during the whole time shooting the video. I also reefed the sail a little when it started getting gusty. The combo gave me total control and I was having a blast sailing that day.

I am adding a removable fore and side stays that are quickly adjustable to add even better performance upwind.

The ballast system has worked very well last year and has really tamed the Raptor to the point that I removed the Bruce foil.

The speed is about the same on both tacks and and so controllable that I can sail the boat almost in my sleep.

The battery pack that I made up fits in the Ama and lasted the whole summer on one charge. It has been a very reliable system.

[Chris Ostlind]

Hi Ed,

If you could, will you take a moment to knock around the benefits vs losses of having ditched the foil setup (all of it) as measured against the possible gain in weight of going with water and the needed electrical/mechanical stuff?

Let me simply say that I'm very impressed with your logical approach to creating an alternate solution for the righting moment considerations present in your boat's design. I'm also taken by the simple, functional way in which the system performs for you. Very nice work.

[Chris Ostlind]

...When that point comes I think the center cockpit demountable amas with one person hand raiseable spar option, become a real contender... the reality is a lot of this stuff is solo anyway... overnighting is one guy... Mostly cruise solo. I think the tri starts to be a contender on those terms.

Just depends what you need.




A nutshell definition of the design thinking behind my Solo16 Sport trimaran.
http://www.lunadadesign.com/fresh-take-on-the-solo16-s.html
http://www.lunadadesign.com/solo16-sport-trimaran.html

The first one is under build right now in North Carolina by Tom Raidna, the publisher/editor of the site, http://buildboats.com/


I took the approach that solo coastal adventure sailing might be exciting for a person who looked at it as a waterborne back packing trip. This is the guy, or gal, who has a pile of lightweight gear from their interests in hiking and minimalist outdoor expressions. This person typically has a single wall, solo tent, or an all-weather bivvy sack, their mound of gear has been paired down to the essentials and weight has been clipped to the things they need the most.

This kind of adventurer isn't necessarily in a hurry, but they want the option of being able to turn it on when the conditions are right, or perhaps they wish to make that next beach before it gets dark. This kind of thinking requires a hull design and rig that can give that kind of zip, even though it is going to be sailed at a much more sedate pace the majority of the time.

This approach has been polished by many years of mountaineering and back country rock climbing trips in which I carved away at my gear list, trip after trip, until I had the kit necessary for my needs and not one bit extra. Oh, sure, I confess... I did stash a second paperback and maybe a couple of extra batteries for a headlamp when the potential for being shut-down by heavy weather was a reality of certain climbing locations, but that was pretty much my splurge factor... other than a good camera and one extra lens. ;-)

These are the kinds of adventures where you quickly discover just what you really want to take with you... cause it all goes on your back. If you really need that aluminum framed folding camp chair, rather than the self-inflating style foldable camp seat that doubles as your sleeping pad at night, then by all means, strap that dude on your internal frame pack and head out. Like the light volume from a trusty Coleman lantern... hey, they're your legs that'll be doing the carrying, so step-up big boy.

Shedding nearly all the excess comfy amenities in favor of a more Spartan experience allows one to draw-up a much different kind of solo cruising machine. Now, instead of a boat that is heavier by its very nature, you can go light and enjoy all that will come your way. Trailering is much simpler with a lighter boat and can be done easily with any car that can take even the simplest of hitches. The trailer is lighter, the boat is lighter. The whole thing moves into the realm of modern thinking where one takes advantage of much lighter materials and doesn't have to pay a price to do so.

I know that this kind of sailing is not for everyone. Hey, it's not always for me anymore, either. I do, however, still enjoy the serene lack of clutter, the ability to transition out of a camp quickly and on to another vista because there just wasn't that much stuff to clean-up after an overnight stay.

As you can see from the length of this discussion, there's more than one way to apply solutions to the business of small multihull use for coastal adventure cruising. The same holds true for monohulls for this same application.

The one that's best...? Well, in my opinion, there isn't one that is "best" for all interested individuals. There is no perfect answer for everyone. It all depends on what you like for solutions and aesthetics and the way in which you might prefer to do your weekend, or longer, adventure sailing. If there were only one right way to solve this set of questions, then there wouldn't be hundreds of small boats out there, all of them with their own unique way of dealing with the same problems. That, to me, is the beauty of the whole thing. We don't all have to wear the same outfit when we seek to enjoy ourselves on the water.

Happy New Year, folks. May the coming months bring you something wonderful with your family and friends. You might even be lucky enough to have it come your way while out on the water. We should all be so fortunate.

[edvb]

Chris

Thanks for the compliment.

The main reason I explored the water ballast idea was that on calmer days I still had to use both hands when on a starboard tack (one for the main sheet and one on the foil handle) as the ama was so light that any wind would lift it out of the water.

I experimented adding weight and found in lighter air the boat still moved well but was much more stable and I did not need to use the foil most of the time.

The ama can support over 200lbs and since you could load the sidecar with up to 140lbs I decided to try to make the water ballast idea work.

The first thought was to open up the ama and glass in bulkheads to make a tank internally. I was going to use scuppers for the valve system controlled by line the same way the Gougeon 32 was done as this would be the lightest.

The one problem that was the same as using the foil is that you need to be moving in order to add or remove ballast.

It also took time to fill or drain.

After reading about ballast bags used for ski boats I decided that would be a better way to go even with the weight penalty involved.

It added 24lbs to the ama but also added stability in the lighter air on a starboard tack.

The nice thing is with the water level indicator I know how much water I have in the tank. At anytime I can add or remove ballast with a flick of the switch.

90 seconds to totally fill or dump a full load is fast enough for me and after flipping the switch on, I can be tacking or doing other things until I get to the ballast level I need.

I did lose a bit of buoyancy when on a port tack and a little lost in top speed but the boat is so easy to sail now and the starboard tack equals the port tack speed when going upwind and on a reach.

Gybing downwind is a blast and most of the time I just dump the ballast as it is not needed on either tack.


Bruce Foil

Plus
Lighter
Can lift ama on port tack
Can have up to 200lbs down force.
All mechanical

Minus
Need extra hand to use

Slower in speed upwind that water ballast ( 1 to 1.5 knots )

Foil hits water when in parked position on port tack in heavier air

Water Ballast

Plus
Frees up one hand

very easy to use.
To fill. Turn valve to open and flip switch forward until level reached than flip switch to middle.Turn valve to close.
To drain. Flip switch back until level reached than flip switch to middle.

Can add or remove ballast manually if pump fails

Faster than using the foil going upwind and on a reach.

Boat is more stable overall.

Minus
Weighs more

Not quite as much down force. (I have found that most of the time I only use 1/4 to 1/2 tank ballast and with full ballast I can have full sail out so not much of an issue now)

Cost

More complex with pumps, valves, battery and switch

Slightly more drag on ama with the fill inlet. (It is streamlined and I have not noticed any more drag than normal)


Overall the plus outweigh the minus and it was the best improvement I made on the boat.

I use the sidecar as a sleeping platform and is pretty comfy for the naps I take on it.

Overall for one person it is a great weekend adventure machine that has all the qualities people are looking for in this thread.

Chris you should design something like this as I am sure there would be interest in this type of craft.

I remember sailing last fall when the wind picked up and I was going upwind in a freshening breeze with full sail out. I added 3/4 ballast and the ama was just skimming the waves at a steady 7 knots on my knotmeter. One hand on the mainsheet and holding a drink in the other grinning ear to ear ,I heard myself saying it does not get any better than this as I scooted home.

Water level indicator/vent. Remove cover to drain or fill manually. If boat flips cover can be remove to drain tank when righting.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/evanbelkom/Raptor%202009/Picture025.jpg

Valve and switch on sidecar
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/evanbelkom/Raptor%202009/Picture011.jpg

Dumping a full ballast load. The boat can be sail fine on a port tack even with full ballast.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/evanbelkom/Raptor%202009/Picture037.jpg

[Oz going sailin]

Have you considered a Little barrier espress? Mine is 20ft x 8'3", weighs 1700lbs, has a draft of 12" board up, 3' board down, flies a screecher and spinaker, has a full size bed below, and you can stand in the companionway when you cook. Portapotti and space for 2 adults (no v berth) and gear, plus two kids on berths under the cockpit. Sets up in 1 hour. Mast is 25.5 feet and weighs 65lbs. I regularly do 6-8knots, in 12knots of wind, but can go faster with more wind or when I fly the big sails. Might be what you're looking for...

[Oz going sailin]

little barrier express

[Oz going sailin]

little barrier express

[Oz going sailin]

the first upload worked...

[Oz going sailin]

little barrier express

[dstgean]

Richard Woods has both cats and tris in his design portfolio.

His most recent boat is the Strike 16 and 18 trimarans using quality beachcat donor hulls and rigs. Makes sense to me. http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/Strike.htm

I do like the short setup time an 8'6" cat has though. Step mast, launch, raise sail, & go. After putting my double Tamanu cat together for the first time in S. Texas, I came to appreciate the potential benifit of narrow beam or clever folding systems.
http://wikiproa.pbworks.com/Texas-200-report

Dan

[ThomD]

I think that tri main hull is so horrendous, then one sees the sailing pics and it does look like fun. Seems as though it would be really easy to improve upon, but at the same time anyone could build that...

[Skywoolf]

Manie B,
Can you point me to where I can see plans or more details of the cabin cruising cat in your pictures.

Thanks

Frank

[Manie B]

Frank I am assuming you are refering to the pics of the 8m cat on my website. This is my own design which I am doing for a friend free of charge. I also visit the build site regularly to see if things are going to plan and will make adjustmenmts as we go along. I wont be selling plans simply because of the massive implications that comes with that kind of responsibility. For any designer to sit and do a complete set of plans for the "home builder" is simply not worth the efffort in todays market. The designers that have built up a good market presence are not making big money out of plans.

In todays market I feel that Richard Woods has got everything covered and I recommend his plans for the home builder, if you cant find anything you like go and look at Easy.

BTW the other little cat that I built was my take of an Jarcat

[Skywoolf]

OK Thanks. I will be starting on building a Slider for my beach house very soon which I think I can launch and retrieve using a lightweight trolley and a little help from my caretaker. If I put in a winch I could launch and retrieve something a bit bigger with a cabin so I am just casually looking around then looking and things like weight and size etc.

[Manie B]

I think for guys like you that have good beach cruising waters the Woods Strike 18 http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/ is a great boat. It would be very easy and cheap to build a bimini style canopy / tent for camping or rainy days.

To my mind the design really makes sense as you can buy an old HobyCat and you can use everything including the trailer, mast, sails, fittings the whole bang shoot. I think it is a very innovative design with plenty space for camping.

[Skywoolf]

Thanks Manny.
That's an interesting and unusual design. Using Hobie cat parts would not be any benefit for me as there is only one that I know of within a few hundred square miles around here.

I will take a look at the web site. One that I do like is Janus but that maybe a bit too big to haul in and out every time it is used.

[uncookedlentil]

for the coastal cruiser in search of more pay load but still wants decent set up time, this http://www.jonesboats.com/Images/brshrimplan.jpg might prove to be a hot setup.

it's a very simple fold for a 13 foot beam and the technology was well proven by hundreds of shark catamarans

[Skywoolf]

Looks nice but there is nowhere near enough info on the web site to make any real judgement.

[rayaldridge]

Frank, Jones wrote fairly extensively about Brine Shrimp in his book New Plywood Boats.

It was his take on the minimal ocean crossing cat.

[Manie B]

i agree

there is nowhere near enough info on the web site to make any real judgement.

not on any of the plans :confused:

[Skywoolf]

I didn't see any plans. Just one small picture of the hull on shore with no rigging and the sketch that uncookedlentil posted the link to. Maybe I missed something.

[uncookedlentil]

I've had to build boats from plans that weren't a whole lot more detailed than what I linked to, but, as we all know, designers can be a cold hearted lot :D

This design is going to take a little more trailer expense and engineering but there's no substitute for home storage and maintenance.

[uncookedlentil]

for those who simply must have a skinney monohull with training wheels:) this one looks excellent, and if I know the brown/marples design team, the plans will be exquisite as is the design.

http://smalltrimarans.com/blog/?p=3350

[Skywoolf]

I've had to build boats from plans that weren't a whole lot more detailed than what I linked to, but, as we all know, designers can be a cold hearted lot :D

This design is going to take a little more trailer expense and engineering but there's no substitute for home storage and maintenance.

Wow! I think I would need a lot more than a 5" sketch with no dimensions or construction details :)

I have a beach house and lot with a private pier and I am building a simple boat house. I won't know until August if the worst weather is too much to leave a boat moored in the deep water that is just a few yards off shore. Launching and preparing the boat needs to be simple as I can't see myself spending a couple of hours getting the boat ready for use then another couple of hours to retrieve it and put it away for one day sailing. I guess much of the work would be unnecessary if if is kept on shore by the water.

I wont need a road trailer but I will need to make something similar to launch and retrieve any boat I have there.

[rayaldridge]

Actually, the late Thomas Firth Jones did very good plans, and I know this because he published the complete plans for a couple of his multihulls in his books-- namely, Weekender, an 18 foot cat, and also, his biggest design, a trimaran. I would assume his widow still sells the plans. Apparently Jones was not a guy who had much use for online merchandising, thus the modest site.

But there's nothing wrong with his plans. My feeling is that Jones was _the_ major 20th century guru of small voyaging multihulls. He was greatly influenced by Wharram in his earlier years, but eventually developed boats that were far superior in performance and comfort.

[Skywoolf]

Thanks Ray, Its good to know that buying the plans would not be a mistake and its probably possible to find more details of the boats elsewhere on the internet.

P.S. I got the halyards. cleats, SS wire, pintals, etc for the Slider from Duckworks but I know a place here in Hong Kong where I can get all the SS blocks, shackles, straps, etc at a fraction of the US prices so I got them all here yesterday. I hope to return to the Philippines on the 16th and get started on the boat soon after.

[rayaldridge]

You can find some pictures of a Brine Shrimp on the Yahoo discussion forum multihull_boatbuilding (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multihull_boatbuilder/)

They're in the file section, though I think you might have to join the group to get access.

[uncookedlentil]

THANX Ray she builds out as pretty as imagined, as small and efficient as a summer pocket cruiser as I could want.

I thought about gutting and converting an old Stilleto, but really, I want to see wood on the interior.

great testimonial and links, thanx again

[rayaldridge]

Jones has a lot more about Brine Shrimp in his book New Plywood Boats.

He called it the smallest multi that two people could cross an ocean in. I don't know if I'd be that brave, but it's hard to argue with a guy who crossed oceans a number of times in small multis without any serious trouble. He and his wife survived a hurricane at sea in a modified Wharram Hinemoa-- 19 feet on the waterline.

Stilletos are great cats, but I think the Brine Shrimp might be a lot more comfortable, if a bit slower.

[rayaldridge]

I have a beach house and lot with a private pier and I am building a simple boat house. I won't know until August if the worst weather is too much to leave a boat moored in the deep water that is just a few yards off shore. Launching and preparing the boat needs to be simple as I can't see myself spending a couple of hours getting the boat ready for use then another couple of hours to retrieve it and put it away for one day sailing. I guess much of the work would be unnecessary if if is kept on shore by the water..

Frank, a couple of long skids ought to do it for Slider. Her trailer bunks are just 2X12 boards with Astroturf to make her slide a little easier, and my cheap trailer winch can crank her up with no trouble. You could set a post in the water with a pulley to haul her off the beach, and that way, you'd be ready to go sailing a couple minutes after you got to the beach.

[Skywoolf]

Hi Ray,

Years ago I had a lot of boats in Hong Kong. I used to get a couple of old small car wheels with stub axles. Weld the axles onto the ends of a piece of 2" steel angle and make a wood frame on top of the steel angle to fit the bottom of the boat. Then I would use galvanized steel pipe welded to the steel angle to make a simple U shaped handle with the ends of the U welded to the steel angle and the curve just in front of the boat. A piece of wide flat fire hose across the U just under the bow supported the front of the boat.

This was OK for two people using a slipway to launch or retrieve ski boats up to about 16 feet with 70hp engines.

I am thinking of something similar for the slider with the wheels between the hulls.

I have attached a couple of pictures that show the path to the water. One picture taken from the beach house shows how close the water is to the beach house and the other shows the concrete foundations where we are building the boathouse across the path from the beach house. The path from the beach has been widened to about ten feet wide since the pictures were taken.

Do you think a couple of guys could pull a slider up from the water to the boat house using the trolly I described?

I can't easily get the car to the beach so I am considering making some sort of winch to retrieve bigger boats. A line can be taken out to the end of the pier if the boats need to be pulled down to the water.

[rayaldridge]

Frank, your trolley sounds like a simple solution to the problem. Dean Pacetti has a trailer for his Slider that uses two 4X4s for bunks, bolted crosswise onto the trailer frame. He doesn't even use a winch-- just grabs the forestay bridle and yanks the boat up onto the 4X4s.

[Skywoolf]

Yes, if the trolley is made to fit the boat you just float the boat over the trolley until it is in the right forward/back position and tie off a line from the bows to the trolley. Then just pull the trolley up the beach or ramp and the boat will settle into the right position as it comes out of the water.

Even with my 25 foot sport fishing boat that I just sold I used the same technique and never needed a winch on the trailer. It did need a tractor to pull it up the beach though :)

[ThomD]

Skywolf, you want wheels?

Amcat 22 by Kelsall.

http://kelsall.com/t1p.html

Jones and his wife made a lot of crossings in very small boats! I don't think he is preminent when one thinks of all the names, but he is certainly inspirational.

[Skywoolf]

Yes the boat will be kept on shore in a boat house. Leaving a boat in the water overnight in the Philippines without a security guard is asking for it to be stripped of anything useful.