1967 48' ChrisCraft Constellation Restoration

[robster]

Hello all,

3 months ago I bought a wooden Constellation and in process of complete restoration. It had extensive rot above the waterline and have replaced 8 ribs, and still replacing most of the battens and planks. fortunately from the waterline down the wood was pickled and was very solid.

Any input on the restoration process in wellcome. Also if anyone has any questions on restoring one of these, I may be able to help advise.

ChrisCraft mostly builds a good boat, but I am changing some obvious flaws in some of the design.

On the ribs and battens I am replacing with white oak, the planks are Hondurous mahogany. I am soaking everything with Penetrating epoxy and seaming with 3M 5200 sealer.

When I get done, the boat will be virtualy waterproof and water tight before I put it back into the water.

[jaydonaldson]

Wow, Your boat brings back such wonderful memories. As a kid, we had that exact boat. Hull was all white. Only 24 48 where build. We had the single engine room port hole....extended hardtop. I heard our boat was shipped to Seattle. That could be our old boat. Does she have 534 seamasters for power (Ford truck engines)????? Morse controls???? either way...that is one hell of a boat you have there. Great lines and one of the prettiest boats CC ever made. Good luck on your restoration...it will be worth it in the end. Jay Donaldson 248 933 1047

[robster]

Very interesting, this could be your old boat. it has the single engine room port and extended hard top with the 534 Seamasters. It is the 2 stateroom model with the queen bed.

When I got it, it was sitting in Tacoma marina rotting. The guy that had it wanted to restore it, but had no idea what he was doing. someone had filled the rot holes with styrofoam and painted the sides with latex house paint.


Hopefully we will have it back in the Water this April and will be crusing it this summer in the San Juan Islands. You are wellcome to go with us anytime :)

I have a question, How many gallons per hour does it use at crusing speed?

Thanks,

Rob Leighton
425-502-0807

[jaydonaldson]

My brother thinks they where around 25 gal per hour. they burn less fuel than the ford 427 block. they produce more tourqe at lower rpms. My 42 commander burned about 30 gal per hour 427s. I sure that is our old boat. Your boat (motors) is one of the best sounding boats you will ever hear. It was always a head turner. Keep in touch. jdonaldson01@comcast.net

[Areyouliving]

Rob hows is this boat coming along?

Bill

[Brightside]

Good Morning,
We saw your Constellation photos. Wondering if you could provide additional
shots? We are just starting a 1966 45. She has plenty of structural
problems, but were up for the task. Any thoughts or input will be appreciated.

[KnottyBuoyz]

Wow! What a great project. Good Luck robster.

I have nothing to contribute that might help you out but cheers!!!

Here's a link to a 55' 1961 Connie that was refitted. Plenty of pics & info if you haven't seen it already. Might be some insights there. Good luck!

http://www.ftkltd.com/

[gonzo]

That is a bad change in the design. The planks are supposed to be caulked with cotton and when they swelll it creates a rigid panel. The epoxy will keep them from swelling. 5200 is a flexible adhesive, it will not lock the planks like a proper caulking job is supposed to do. All the stress will be in the fasteners. Definetely a typical amateur disaster.

[PAR]

You'll note I left this one alone Gonzo. Anyone making these types of "repairs" clearly hasn't a good grasp and probably will not pay attention, especially when they're looking to "help advise". I hope his fasteners are really tight, 'cause his planks will not be for long.

[fhutto]

I was thinking of buing a 67 constellation and repowering with twin diesels-cats or detroits-Is this crazy?

[missinginaction]

Hi fhutto,

Are you crazy?

I'm not qualified to comment on your mental health but I would say this.

A. If you have done restoration before and understand the time, effort and money involved and you want to do this inspite of that knowledge then give it a whirl.

B. On the other hand.....If you're new to this (and asking your question leads me to believe you are) then I would't say you're crazy but I would say that you just don't understand the process of doing a restoration such as you are considering.

What you are proposing is a huge financial, time and work comittment.

Huge.....

MIA

[dacarls]

One of these (nearly- a 54') was newly rebuilt and 2 years ago was travelling North in Lake Michigan. They caved in the bow just offshore of Little Point Sauble lighthouse and sank quickly. Fortunately the 2 on boat were rescued.
I found a lovely 2 foot piece of mahogany rail onshore last summer- broken off brass screws, new white paint. Care to guess where it came from?

[robster]

Rob hows is this boat coming along?

Bill

Hello Bill,

The Constellation is back in the water and doing well. I have completely rebuilt the hull and deck, I am now working on the interior. it has taken me longer that anticipated but it has been worth it.

My boat building methods with wood have created some interesting comments on this forum, but it just shows how some people can be stuck in traditional outdated boat building methods and not advance themselves.
I have always been one that pushes the technological edge and can create controversy hahaha.

I will post pictures later

Thanks

Rob L

[PAR]

Rob, nothing personal, but I've repaired dozens of boats that have been given your "technological edge" treatment. Best of luck and I hope your insurance is up to date. Of course, when they find out how you've repaired her, it'll void any claim, but hey what do I know, I'm just outdated, though one of the only wooden boat surveyors in all of central Florida, for the biggest insurance company going.

[robster]

That is a bad change in the design. The planks are supposed to be caulked with cotton and when they swelll it creates a rigid panel. The epoxy will keep them from swelling. 5200 is a flexible adhesive, it will not lock the planks like a proper caulking job is supposed to do. All the stress will be in the fasteners. Definetely a typical amateur disaster.

This comment is typical of a traditional wooden boat builder that has little knowledge of modern materials and stress/strain analysis. because of the materials I have used that I haven't mentioned, I could take out all the fasteners in my planks and they still would never come loose. But since you want to act like you know it all, I will keep the info for someone that actually wants to learn something new. I will put my boat up against anything you guys have anyday.

[robster]

Rob, nothing personal, but I've repaired dozens of boats that have been given your "technological edge" treatment. Best of luck and I hope your insurance is up to date. Of course, when they find out how you've repaired her, it'll void any claim, but hey what do I know, I'm just outdated, though one of the only wooden boat surveyors in all of central Florida, for the biggest insurance company going.

Hummm since when did you know what I have done? is it because I have mentioned epoxy and 5200? funny, but hey you guys know it all, I forgot

[maarty]

Hi Robster,
I am betting on your 3m5200 over cotton; that stuff is more than tenacious. What does concern me is the possibility of the epoxy eventually locking in moisture. Any tiny little bit of a crack or fracture in the epoxy layer will let in the wet; when that happens how will it breath out?
Interesting that the rot was above the waterline. How do you explain that?

[robster]

Yes that is a valid point only if you are using untreated wood. I pressure treat every piece of wood I put on the boat with penetrating epoxy until it has soaked most of the way through the wood, then before I fasten it to the boat, I saturate the joining wood with west system epoxy. let it dry and then glue each joint with 5200, making sure I leave enough room for movement and flex.
I use the fasteners to position the wood in place until the adhesive cures. I also go on the inside and double seal everything with 5200 and epoxy.

I don't think anyone has gone to this measure when working with wood and epoxy, at best they usually just coat the wood with epoxy and then when it stress cracks, it will do as you mentioned.

[robster]

The rain water was the cause of all the rot above the waterline. Rain has all kinds of organic deposits in it that creates fungus and mold, therefore exponentially spreading rot. unlike salt water preserves wood because of the salt content in the water

[PAR]

Rob, you do realize that all penetrating epoxies (yep, every single brand) aren't not water proof, right? They let in huge volumes of moisture vapor, in fact shellac is actually better at preventing water vapor ingress then penetrating epoxies!

You also realize that 5200 will permit the planks to dance on their fasteners, because they're not driven solidly home, but floating on a bed of flexible goo, right? 80% of the longitudinal stiffness of your yacht, comes from the plank edge set and structure/planking interface, being rock solid from tight fasteners and frictional fits of the adjoining planks and frames.

Lastly, you do realize that 5200 is a polyurethane and absolutely will not remain stuck to wet wood, right? It pulls off like a big, long, rubbery piece of string, but you'd know all about this, being the new age kind of boat repair kind of guy you are, right? You don't really think you're the first guy to have tried this treatment do you? Pleeeease, 3M-5200 and penetrating epoxy have caused more yachts to be dragged to the land fill than about anything else, especially carvels with goo'd up seams.

[robster]

Thanks for the info, I am not trying to act like I know everything, in fact the reason why I try new things is to learn better systems of boat building. I consider everything people say, and that is also my main source of learning. But I also know that this boat was built exactly the way you would advise me to repair it, and was the reason why it was being sent to the burn pile before I rescued it. So the old cotton caulking and soaked wood didn't help it much.

We have to come up with a better way of wooden boat building that never lets the wood get wet. If you have a better idea that would have that result then I would be very interested.

[michael pierzga]

This comment is typical of a traditional wooden boat builder that has little knowledge of modern materials and stress/strain analysis. because of the materials I have used that I haven't mentioned, I could take out all the fasteners in my planks and they still would never come loose. But since you want to act like you know it all, I will keep the info for someone that actually wants to learn something new. I will put my boat up against anything you guys have anyday.


Yah, that's "batten seam" construction. 5200 is the RECOMENDED method of caulking. All the modern runabout restorations follow the same method. Batten seam Sport fishers do the same. Not sure about epoxy sealing above the waterline. Below the waterline epoxy is well proven , both outside and inside surfaces have a high moisture content and live in a stable temperature range. . Above the waterline is a good question ? Only time will tell. Sunlight and heat cause wood to Breath , move and subject the wood to a wide range of moisture. Make sure you paint your boat white !! to minimize this thermal wet dry influence. Boat looks great...keep up the good work !!

[PAR]

Michael, you are absolutely nuts. Why do you speak of things you haven't a clue about? Why do you repeatedly say ridiculous things like this? It's something that occurs with you nearly every other post. How about this, speak what you know, not what you think you know. Not a single restorer that I know (I personally know dozens) uses 3M-5200 on these rebuilds. Everyone has seen the testing results (except Michael) for both non-cyanoacetate reacted polyurethanes and penetrating epoxy. There are a few hold outs, especially on penetrating epoxies, but not the folks doing repairs on boats repaired or restored with these goo's. Hell, I was a hold out for a while there too, but the jury is in folks.

Both the moisture cure polyurethanes (single and two part) and penetrating epoxies (A and F molecules) have their place and uses, but these have been dramatically curtailed in recent years with the advent of testing and long term trials.

Interestingly enough, what has been found out is the old timers that designed these systems, actually knew a lot more about what was going on, then we gave them credit for and the traditional repairs (with modern materiel and technique updates) work the best. For example the best system for carvel repair is pounded caulk or wedges, which is precisely the approach the old timers would have taken.

Batten seam is a self sealing technique and usually doesn't need "bedding" to work effectively. Most manufactures went away from this building technique once other building methods took hold, namely developed plywood hull shapes and building techniques. What most batten seam boats suffer form is loose fasteners, which permits the planks to move, which erodes the plank edges and "eggs" out the fasteners holes. All of this movement lets water force it's way past the seams and into the boat. The usual fix is to restore the fastener holes and refasten the boat. This assumes the plank edges haven't been ground to pulp, waiting on the owner to do something about the fasteners. Good fastener holes permit the planks to be drawn down tight against the battens and bingo, assuming good plank edge fits or a cheater or two, the boat is tight again.

A very similar situation is true with carvel builds. If the movement is addressed early, you can just restore the fastener holes and refasten the planks down with few worries. Naturally, this assumes the boat will be properly caulked, which edge sets the planking and turns the hull from an assembly of loosely fitted boards to a homogeneous hull shell. Unlike many other building methods, carvel relies heavily on other structural elements to share in load bearing and strain transfer. This means if a carvel is permitted to "work" against her fastenings, she'll tear up a lot more of her structural frame work. A carvel is easier to fix, but usually requires more things to fix, while a batten seam is more difficult to repair, but the repairs are usually limited to specific areas.

To answer Robster's questions, yep, there are repair strategies in place, though most are application specific, though each will have similar approaches. For example, underwater seams on wood, the modern goo of choice is polysulfide, not polyurethane, because it will stick to wet wood. Another reason to use polysulfide is because it can be repaired, which is a big deal breaker for most modern goo's. If a goo works, that's great, but if it tears out a bunch of wood, when you try to remove it, then it's the wrong goo to use, because now you've got to repair the plank edges too, not just fix what ever the original problem was. Repairability is a huge consideration for the reputable builder/restorer. If you can't repair you efforts, you've done a great disservice to the yacht as a whole.

[fg1inc]

Robster, as a guy who works with fiberglass and all sorts of resins every day, I am very intrested in your above reference to a penetrating epoxy that "soaked most of the way through the wood". If true, this is a truly remarkable product. Would it be possible for you to prepare a test piece, say something like a 1" x 3" plank, then saw a couple inches off the end and post a photo of this saturation? Thank you very much, I would really like to get my hands on such a product.

[missinginaction]

I'd like to see that too!

[maarty]

Wow, this is a great thread. I especially like PAR and fg1inc's contributions. Interesting how pissy and righteous we can get sometimes; it's almost as if we were discussing politics or religion.
Now that I am re-reading the various posts it occurs to me that much of the critique focuses on the fasteners being stationary and not moving with the various loads and flexing of the hull, resulting in the fastener holes widening.
Would it make sense to use no fasteners and use polysulfide goo instead of polyurethane?

[gonzo]

NO, The cotton makes the plank a rigid panel. Any "goo" will let the planks move and will not create a structural panel. People that do that are amateurs with no knowledge of boatbuilding. PAR knows what he talks about. This has nothing to do with politics or religion but facts and technology that was developed through millennia of experimentation. Making a square wheel may be novel, but it will just be crap and not turn. That is the equivalent to what you are trying to re-invent in a boat.

[maarty]

I get what you are saying about the cotton making a unified rigid panel; but when I look at Robster's pics I can see that he is glueing to the frames and stringers; can't help but thinking that if the longitudinal stingers and frames are unified with the planking that the result will be a unified society of parts that will move in concert, much in the same way as the cotton would. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems that Robster is creating a rigid grid; possibly better than a rigid panel?
Maybe 5200, as PAR points out isn't the best choice, but I'm not really sure what a square wheel has to do with this.
I have heard people say, "If that was a good idea it would have been thought of before".

[gonzo]

It is not that it would've been thought of before, but that is has been tried of before and failed. He is making a hermafrodite hybrid of methods that will not work well. He is also spending a lot of time and money on something that will not be worth it.

[PAR]

3M-5200 is an adhesive/sealant, with a lot of adhesive qualities. It also cures much harder then most folks think, but it still has huge permissible distortion and elongation properties, which make it completely unacceptable in this application. If you want a bonding and bedding compound under a winch stand base, that will remain in service for the next 20 years, then 3M-5200 is a good choice. Of course when you remove the winch stand for replacement or service, it'll tear up what ever it's attached to.

What's needed in this application is a very rigid faying surface to faying surface interface, not a flexible one, such as that provided by a sealant like 3M-5200. If you use a flexible interface on the faying surfaces, then the planks will move. With this movement the first thing to go will be the planking fastener holes, followed by bent and broken fasteners, followed by egged out fastener holes in the frames or battens, followed by smashed faying surfaces, followed by failing local load bearing neighboring structural elements, that have to absorb the additional loads, no longer carried by the failed fastener holes, faying surfaces and other assorted "issues". Did I mention the leaks? It's a vicious circle and it all needs to be addressed in a logical fashion or you're just trying to piss up a rope.

It would be nice if there was a miracle goo in a can that could rescue old boats, but not for trying about every sort of goo and resin system available, there just isn't one.

It's absolutely false to believe he's "gluing" anything with 3M-5200, he's not. Will it be attached, maybe, assuming it doesn't get very wet (imagine that on a boat under the LWL), but with several hundred percent (yep, that's right several hundred percent) elongation of 3M-5200 gluing isn't the term I'd use. In other words if the planks want to move in a mini elliptical orbit, then this type of "adhesive" will happily let it move in this motion. How long do you think the fasteners holes will last with this going on. BTW, this is precisely the motion you can expect from a powerboat, as a result of the many different types of machinery vibrations aboard.

[maarty]

That's why I was asking about polysulfide vs 5200, and no fasteners.

[PAR]

Maarty, neither polysulfide, nor polyurethanes (like 3M-5200) are suitable as an adhesive in this regard. These are sealants, rubbery, highly distortable, stretchy, sealants. It would be more helpful if you pulled up the physical properties of the products you'd think might be effective and look over their attributes. In this way, you'd understand the limitations of the formulations employed, which is particularly true of material substitutions. It's not practical nor especially desirable to remove fasteners from the equation, in these types of building methods. If you do, you have to physically glue each seam and each plank to each structural element. This would work for a short time, but you would isolate strains and stresses and these wouldn't be as easily shared by neighboring structural pieces, so breakage would become an issue, usually in the weakest areas, such as frames or battens. Also the planks would test the edge glue joint with wet/dry cycling. Monocoque wooden structures are easily possible, but you have to specifically engineer them, which of course is typically a completely different "route" then plank on frame methods.

To directly answer your question about 3M-5200 versus polysulfide, well there are a few different types of each. To keep things simple the polyurethanes are usually mush more aggressive as an adhesive then the polysulfides. The polyurethanes tend to have less modulus of elasticity as well, but this can get complicated pretty quickly with all the various formulations, particularly the two parts and the cyanoacetate activated combinations. The polysulfides typically have less (much less compared to 3M-5200 in some cases) tensile strength, but higher physical elongation before catastrophic tensile failure. To use 3M products as an example, 3M-101 (a single part, moisture cure, polysulfide) is dramatically weaker in most every regard to 3M-5200 (a single part, moisture cured polyurethane), except softness of cure and elongation. You can get other formulations of each goo that can rival the opposition, but most haven't need or experience with these chemicals (except for the LPU's and two part polysulfides used in deck seams). You'll need a short chemistry course, for further understanding of these formulations.

[michael pierzga]

In Batten seam construction....there is no caulking bevel on the plank edges to accept caulking. You don't pound cotton into the seam to force the planks apart and stiffen the hull. Only areas without battens like the garbord are caulked.
The batten makes the plank to plank seam watertight . This joint is caulked with goo...not cotton...either Dolpinite bedding or 5200 does the job. 5200 is very effective on batten seam construction and is recommended by many high class boat builders and boat building manuals..

The original posters ,epoxy 5200, hybrid repair is well conceived. The epoxy coating slows moisture absorption and as a result, plank movement. Less movement puts less stress on the 5200 joint and the mechanical fastener.


This type of repair is done hundreds of times a year by first class restorers .

For additional info contact

http://www.danenbergboatworks.com/

http://www.maritimeclassics.com/

http://www.chris-craft.org/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=2872

and read Greg Rossels " The boat builder's apprentice "

[maarty]

Ok, now I'm really confused. I guess time will tell if Robster's boat holds together. Very good posts though; I am going to research all of the concepts; more out of interest than anything else. Personally I like fibre glass the best, followed by steel. Then again I've not worked on a wooden hull and have the prejudice that wood was used in the past because nothing else was available. I like PAR's postings the best.

[gonzo]

Batten seam construction, at least when in Chris Crafts and most North American builds I know of are caulked. Otherwise, the tiny screws on the battens would have to provide all the structural strength. If you epoxy a structure that is designed to swell and tighten up to create a panel, the fasteners will fail. If you want an epoxy sealed boat, either fiberglass over the whole thing, or build something that makes sense with that method.

[michael pierzga]

Well Gonzo...no need to guess, simply read . Google Greg Rossel's book on batten Seam construction 5200... and if you re worried that Greg might be pulling your leg read Robert Steward, "Boat building Manual"... consult page 199...batten seam construction, sikaflex polyurethane. And if you are still confused simply contact the Chris Craft classic owners club and they can educate you . If its still a mystery to you contact Danenberg boat works.

[gonzo]

I don't need to find the information out of a book. I have worked on enough Chris Crafts. Batten seam construction, as they did it, needs the seams to lock. How many of these boats have you worked on?

[michael pierzga]

Our family had a batten seamed boat , built by Davis ,for more than 20 years . I know the technique well.

Please clarify what " seams to lock" means then please post the technical document you will present your client when recommending that they pound cotton into the seams of a batten seam build .
And please post the technical literature you hold , specific to batten seam construction, which forbids polyurethane adhesive compounds on batten and plank edges.

I await these enlightening documents.

[missinginaction]

Just following along here....Happen to have Sewards book open to pg. 199. Michael, the author is suggesting the use of Sika 241 (and there are many Sika products) as a product that can eliminate caulking the seams in a batten seam planking arrangement. I don't see anything written there to suggest that one would seal all the planks (to keep water out - a futile effort), or try to glue the planks to the frames (or battens).

So based on what I'm reading Sewards text is speaking to the caulking only. In addition Seward states that the seam between the garboard plank and the keel should be caulked "in the usual manner". If the Sika method works so well then why would Seward make that statement? Because of more stress and forces at work in the garboard/keel area?

If I'm understanding their posts correctly (PAR & Gonzo) the issue they have with this build is primarily in the area of how the planks were attached to the frames (or in Sewards case battens) but also with the concept of caulking between planks with flexible sealants. PAR and Gonzo are saying they need to be mechanically fastened and Seward does too. Seward hedges a bit advocating both tradtional caulking (barboard/keel) and Sika (rest of the boat). I wonder why Seward wrote it up that way?

Very confusing.......

[michael pierzga]

There is no BATTEN at the garboard !!! You better re read the document. The planks are bonded to the batten. The plank edges are bonded together.

To Quote ... Greg Rossel " There is no bevel between the planks to caulk as the BATTEN does the job of keeping the water out

"The planks are screw fastened to both batten and the frames. Bedding compound is applied to the INSIDE of the plank and the Batten."
"For a truly bullet and waterproof seam, an adhesive caulk such as Sikaflex or 3m 5200 is used instead of traditional beading compound. IT WORKS GREAT ! "

Who is Greg Rossel ??

GREG RÖSSEL grew up cruising on the waters of New York Harbor and spending time in the boatyards on the south shore of Staten Island where economics (more than anything else) made wooden boats the craft of choice. He makes his home in Maine where he specializes in the construction and repair of small wooden boats. Since graduating at the top of his class in boatbuilding technology from Washington County Vocational Technical Institute, Greg has had a multifaceted career. For several years, he was an assistant restorer for a major private collection of antique runabouts and airplanes. Then he spent another couple of years as an instructor and assistant director at Maine Maritime Museum’s Apprenticeshop program. All the while, he was building his own shop at home in Troy, Maine, and tackling a wide variety of smallboat construction and restoration projects. For over 20 years, Greg has been able to work for himself full-time, aside from a few odd jobs like setting up a wooden Whitehall factory in Mexico, custom lines taking and documentation for museums and other customers, and writing over 100 articles for WoodenBoat and other publications. He has also written and illustrated Building Small Boats, a book on carvel and traditional lapstrake boatbuilding, published by WoodenBoat Books. Since the late 1980s, Greg has been an instructor at WoodenBoat School, teaching lofting, skiff building, and the Fundamentals of Boatbuilding. Also, for the past 16 years he has been producing a weekly two-hour radio program about world music which (mercifully) has nothing to do with boats.

Who is PAR ?

Who is Gonzo ?

People read Boat Design net to gain insight into Boat repair and design...these guys have not presented a single link..a single document to back up their ideas. Gonzo states..."I don't need to find the information out of a book"

Beware........

[gonzo]

Michael: Firstly, you don't answer my question: How many Chris Crafts have you worked on? Secondly, Davis never designed or built Chris Crafts. His boats may be built by a different method, I don't know.
"Seams to lock", means that by caulking them there is a mechanical lock that creates a panel. This is a method that dates millennia.
I never claimed that polyurehtane adhesive compounds are forbidden. I do claim that it may not take the place of cotton or oakum caulking. Also, that 5200 must not be used on wood seams below the waterline. That is a recommendation from 3M.
I am not sure that you can be enlightened. In many other posts you also resort to sarcasm and personal attacks instead of limiting the discussion to facts.

[robster]

Ok so it is time to set the record straight here. I have held my peace with all the sarcasm and personal attacks (seams as though gonzo likes to dish it out but cannot take it himself) and comments such as been call an "amateur" by Gonzo, (Which goes along with his concept of not needing to check facts before he makes bogus comments and accusations) that I am assuming he is some boat repair worker at a yard. And this other guy par, that calls himself a boat designer and builder. Oh by the way par, can you list all the boats you have built? and also have been built by your design? And please explain exactly the materials and processes used? I would be highly interested! Maybe we could learn something from your boats being used for decades to prove your methods actually work.

As for me, I started building WOOD COMPOSITE boats, (a concept that some of you obviously know little about) when I was 12 years old. This was in 1978. At that time I attended Westlawn School of Yacht Design and pursued passionately, boat building design with wood. Mainly because I wanted to advance wood boatbuilding technology and bring it out of the dark ages techniques such as “soaking wood hulls with water to get them to seal”, and using cotton caulking, which has been used since the beginning of time on wooden seams and the reason why thousands of wooded boats are at the bottom of the ocean. And also because of all the wooden boats that I was observing that were rotting faster than people could repair them.

By the time I was 18 I had already built an 18’ ski boat, a 21’ inboard cabin cruiser, and built a 24’ Thunderbird sailboat, all of plywood using the west system epoxy and ALL of them are still in use today. But not all of my experiences were successful. I did a lot of trial and error as not very many people at that time even heard about the products and methods I was using.

One of my errors was actually using a method that gonzo suggested “If you want an epoxy sealed boat, either fiberglass over the whole thing”. This method actually is the worst thing you can do with wood. I tried it when I was learning about using fiberglass and wood together on a 16’ ski boat I had restored, and fiberglassed the whole bottom of the boat. It worked for awhile but after a few years the fiberglass sheeting was pealing off the plywood like a banana peal and the boat became an addition to my garden landscaping. AT that time I began to study the differences of materials, structural properties and expansion/contraction effects. Little did I know at the time was that fiberglass expanded and contracted very little and wood a lot. Therefore the wood expansion on my 16’ ski boat caused the fiberglass to de-laminate off the wood, trapping water between the two and was literally popping the fiberglass and epoxy material right off my boat.

Contrary to some of the people on this post want to believe, most ANY wood boatbuilding method can be used to create a composite and watertight boat, as long as you make sure that the wood will never saturate with water. Therefore the properties of the wood will not vary much, and the true properties of the epoxy and adhesive will work as designed. On my methods, I could virtually take out most of the fasteners, especially on the hull planking, (making sure of course that the wood is resealed) and the planks would still never come loose. Because they would not get wet as some here are trying to claim.

I also find it interesting how people can be so contradictory to themselves. Such as, 5200 will peal off like a long noodle with one comment, and then turn around with another one and say that if using 5200, you can never take the plank off without ripping it off and damaging the frame it is fastened to. But wait, the same person is saying that 5200 is not an adhesive! So why would it adhere so much as to take the seam with it? it only proves that these people know little knowledge about these products and are only ranting about personal opinions and experiences that they are trying to blame certain products for wood boat failure. But it is true that you do not want to saturate wood with water when using 5200, which would defeat my whole concept anyway now wouldn’t it?

The fact of the matter is, even though I am rebuilding a Batten planked wood boat, the result of my method is now changing it to a wood/epoxy composite hull. And yes it will move and flex like it is supposed to and designed to do, just like your supposedly “locked cotton caulked planked hull” which by the way is not locked at all, as you now have a waterlogged boat that grows, shrinks, flexes, vibrates and moves with every change in temperature, climate change, boat movement, etc etc.

Oh and FYI, I am a materials engineer and composite subject matter expert for the Boeing Company and have studied, tested and worked with many types of epoxy, E-glass, S-glass, wood and carbon fiber for decades, and have the track record and reputation to back it up, and also I probably make more per month than some of you guys do in a year. So just a little advice for all you here on this blog. Do not assume you know anything about anyone unless you ask some questions! an intelligent person gathers facts first before he makes any decision or assumptions.

[PAR]

Gonzo, Michael is the "village idiot" and constantly speaks about things he doesn't know. He reads lots of books (apparently) and thinks he knows, when in fact he has no real experience, nor any practical advise to offer. Personally, I think he's a bored teenager that wanders from discussion boards to chat rooms to opinion areas, around the net, offering what he thinks is good advise, but what really comes out his inability to define or extrapolate any of his concepts, precepts or real world expertise. I've challenged him repeatedly and he's failed to respond 99% of the time and when he does, he changes the subject.The books he states where written, in some cases many decades ago, when some still believed in polyurethanes as the cure all to end all, of wooden boat ills, but as has been typical for Michael, he's talking out his butt and attempting to pass himself off as someone that has something to offer, when in fact he's just an arm chair quarterback looking at the game with hindsight goggles, which he hasn't bothered to clean lately. Michael, do yourself a favor and read the "originally published" dates of the books you're preaching from.

To prove my point, he lists "GREG RÖSSEL" then a brief bio about him which is a cut a paste directly from the very first link that appears in a "GREG RÖSSEL" search on Goggle (an Amazon.com link for one of his books)! You see Michael, the difference here is, I actually know the guy, you're just a cut and paste artist!

The Bob Steward book (Boatbuilding Manual) was written in 1970! Though it has received some updates (5 in fact) the bulk of the information is essentially the same 1970's text! Yea, listen up everyone, lets continue using nearly a half a century old information and techniques. Now there's a good idea, congratulations Michael, you once again have proven how little you actually know.

Danenberg is the classic "throw back" that I mentioned previously. He once was a well respected restorer and repair expert, but now has fallen way behind the curve, well entrenched in penetrating epoxies and polyurethane myths, rather then accepting the facts of testing and long term evaluation, much of which is done by the very formulators he promotes!. Maybe someday he'll wake up, but don't hold you breath as he's seen the data, but still refuses to back away from long held beliefs. It's a sin, but he's a lot like others that were once respected, like Larry Pardey, who though once well regarded, still thinks that epoxy is a passing fad!

Lastly, most of you are missing the dramatic differences between bedding compounds, sealants and adhesives. These terms aren't interchangeable, though some are using them as such here (which shows their experience level). You sometimes can substitute certain types of sealants for a bedding compound, but it depends of the formulation. Anyone that uses an aggressive material like 3M-5200 hasn't any real world experience with this goo on wood. If it remains stuck, it will rip up huge sections of wood in attempts to remove it. 3M-5200 has it's place, but not in a repair or replacement prone environment such as planking seams, particularly in light of the other products available for the same use.

As for Robster, I suspect we have very similar concepts and ideas, but are getting stuck on phrasing. Yes, I can list my design work and just about every client as well, including the production work currently underway.

The physical properties of 3M-5200 are well documented. I've seen this stuff hold 2.5 ton ballast casting in place when all the bolts have been sheered in a hard grounding! I've also personally pulled it out of many hundreds of feet of seams that unwitting owners and repair personal have applied it to. This is a common theme in the repair industry and also well documented. For those that just can't buy into the realities of these things, well you can sit beside some formerly well noted folks, but you're still relying on incorrect assumptions.

and fiberglassed the whole bottom of the boat. It worked for awhile but after a few years the fiberglass sheeting was pealing off the plywood like a banana peal and the boat became an addition to my garden landscaping.
This is the same lesson we all have gone though, but it doesn't discount the materials or method in general, though your techniques and application (at the time) may have been less then acceptable.

You aren't the only engineer here Robster. I'm a two times over one myself. Maybe it would be better if you were a little more clear about the process you employed on your Chris Craft. You see, we get lots of "this sort of thing" and the usual reaction is to dismiss it out of hand, for the resulting long term damage it does to the yacht. I think you got caught up in this particular attitude, which I (as well as others) initially used. I think you may have taken some of the comments incorrectly or personally, which wasn't isn't our fault (nor my intention), but since my initial posts about this "technique" I have let the thread develop basically unmolested. Only recently have I rejoined to again dispel myths about these materials and their once popular, but now testing reinforced, not so much use.

My issue with your "technique" is the penetrating epoxy, which is a waste of money for diluted goo and the heavy bodied sealant used in you repairs. The penetrating epoxy will not stop moisture vapor ingress. This isn't debatable, it's well proven, just pick a major brand formulator and talk to their technical advisers. You stated an overcoat with epoxy, but I assumed a single coat, though I may be wrong, so how many overcoats of neat epoxy, before the planks were bedded? Did this overcoat include inside the faster holes? I'll assume so, (there's that assumption thing again) with your experience level. If you had to guess, how thick was the neat epoxy coating? Any reinforcements? In short, what about a straight up schedule for the "technique" and we can start this over with respect to clearly more expertise then the "usual suspects" (with similar posts) with 3M-5200 smeared all over their boat.

[robster]

Par par, you are missing my whole point. First of all, seams as though your mind is stuck on trying to compare or mix wood composite methods to old cotton seam methods. I am absolutely not. and also for all the traditional guys out there, I thoroughly agree that 5200 should never be used or mixed with a traditional cotton/water soaked planking method. and if you try and repair a traditionally build wood boat with epoxy or caulking like 5200, the new repair will not expand/contract the same and also will trap water around the repair. causing total failure. I am sure that is what you and gonzo is talking about here. As I stated in the start of this thread, I am REBUILDING, NOT REPAIRING!!! and so therefore I am only using ONE system, not mixing old methods with new.

[PAR]

I edited my post to address some of your questions (Robster) and you posted before I could re-post. So if you would have a look at the last portion of my previous post and lets get everything sorted out and down to a level playing field again, of course if you're willing?

For what it's worth, I've played with similar ideas of what I (now) think you're talking about and it has some promise, but as you'd expect also some issues of it's own.

[robster]

Par, thanks for your honesty and willingness to have a productive conversation, and of course I am totally willing. I am sure we can learn some things from each other. at the moment I have taken a lot of time today to respond to all the comments and will get back to you later today with a more detailed outline of my composite process.

Just to add here. I thoroughly respect and honor the craftsmen and many in my mind are "Legends" of wood yacht and ship design, such as a personal hero of mine, Master shipwright, Donald Mckay, of which I have studied intensely even until now, his methods of clipper ship construction. But he also used the cotton/water soaked caravel planked system, and is the very reason why all of his ships are now either burned up or at the bottom of the ocean, with none still in existence.

[gonzo]

You started the thread saying that this was a restoration. That is defined by repairing and rebuilding to original standards. Later on you insult us because we post opinions and facts according to what you posted.

[robster]

gonzo, I apologize for the miss communication, and the use of the term "restoration", i can see how it could be miss-understood. I have actually taken the boat totally apart down to the keel and rebuilt it with new materials and process. most people think i am crazy and wasting my money. but I think that is up for me to decide. One of my motivations was to take and old design and rebuild it with new processes and materials and do some testing and comparisons so that we all can learn from them. maybe some of my processes will not work very well, but that is what experimenting and learning is all about isn't it. I am never one to stay "In the box" and therefore get beat up quite a bit for it.

Also for starters. this is the penetrating epoxy I am using

http://www.rotdoctor.com/test/penetration.html please check out their testing of the product.

I soaked one of my mahogany planks with this stuff and let it sit out in the weather through the summer and winter for a whole year. it got sun baked, rained on, snowed on and frozen, experiencing temperatures from 100 deg down to below zero. the next summer after examining the plank, I noticed it did not change the structural characteristics of the wood at all and was still shedding water the same as when I first applied the epoxy on it.

I tried other penetrating epoxy products that totally failed from the same test. so it proves that not all products are the same.

[gonzo]

An old guy friend of my always said that if you want it and can afford it, then it's not expensive. You are taking the planks out one by one and then re-installing them, right? Might as well set everything in epoxy and laminate the outside. It would be like any wood, composite hull and become a monocoque structure. Using epoxy and then a flexible adhesive seems counterproductive.

[robster]

Yes I took all the planks off the hull and most of the ribs, of course I had to do this a little at a time so that I would not loose the shape of the boat. what little structure of the boat that was left. I saturated it with penetrating epoxy first and continually put on multiple coats until it stopped soaking in, then I began to replace most all the ribs, batons and planking, soaking them with epoxy by heating them up first to open the wood pores and then soaking them in a tank of epoxy for one hour. after drying I saturated them again with West System Epoxy before installing on the boat. The reason why I used a "thin" coat of 5200 is to allow minimal movement of the structure so that it will not crack after years of vibration and flexing from wave impact. No matter what, a boat (Much like an airplane) needs to be allowed to flex so that it will not crack at the seams or worse, break structural components because it is too rigid. Just the vibration from the engines alone (as stated in an earlier post), will crack out epoxied seams.

[missinginaction]

Excuse me, I have a question......

How does one soak something in a "tank" of epoxy for an hour without setting fire to the shop?

I'm really not trying to be a wise guy but this just doesn't add up, but then, what do I know.......

:?::confused::?:

[robster]

Excuse me, I have a question......

How does one soak something in a "tank" of epoxy for an hour without setting fire to the shop?

I'm really not trying to be a wise guy but this just doesn't add up, but then, what do I know.......

:?::confused::?:

No problem, actually a good question. First of all penetrating epoxy stays liquid after mixing for several days. I built tanks that were just big enough to put the planks in. Then i fill the tank with just enough epoxy to cover the board. And let it sit for 1 hr. Then take it out. After using up all that is possible. I clean out the tank before it sets up so i can start another batch.

[PAR]

Well this wasn't what I was hoping for when I asked for a schedule, but out of hand it's clearly way over the top as far as practicality, in a restoration or repair setting and not something the vast majority would consider. Given that, you've placed much too much faith (in my opinion in light of the testing results) in this re-badged Smith brothers product. I've tested this stuff, along with all the other major brands and they are precisely what their hazardous materials documentation suggests they are, highly diluted epoxy. In the case of the particular product you used, ~33% solids once fully cured. This isn't an especially impressive version of the DGBEGA molecule, particularly considering in it's usual form is a 100% solids product.

The hot on hot process you briefly describe is only effective on the very first coating of epoxy. Subsequent coats, with a hot on hot technique will not draw in any differently then room temperature applied coats. This is simple physics as the pores are sealed in the first coat so contracting gasses in the second coat, can't draw in additional material. In the case of CPES and considering is gross porosity, there might be some additional "suck" in subsequent hot on hot coats, but I suspect the surface pores have a fairly high percentage of the solids, while the many vehicles have leached further into the substrate as they evaporate.

The addition of the word "thin" to a coat of 3M-5200 makes a substantial difference in an interpretation of what's been done here. I still don't recommend this stuff below the LWL, but used as you have, which is thin and under the pressure of the mechanically fastened, faying surfaces, you placed it in as good a position to succeed as it can be. Under pressure during the cure, 3M-5200 does work in underwater situations, but this isn't the usual exploitation of this goo.

Personally, I would have (and have in the past) just used good repair techniques and saved myself (and the client) a bunch of money. In your case, you where after something entirely different and the approach bears this out easily.

Finally, your test board survived outdoors for a year with just CPES on it. Your sun must be much different then my sun, as we have UV down here that will char epoxy (regardless of brand or dilution rate) if left with direct sun exposure for a full year. Now I realize the great white north hasn't as direct an inclination angle as we southerners, but I would have suspected some damage without UV protection coatings. Not even the Smith brothers make these claims, though they've made some real doozies over the years, one of which forced them to change their product name. In fact, it was the claims of their product that caused the uproar and industry wide testing, name changes (they're on their third) and the general debunking that comes when multiple testings prove advertising hype to be just that.

I hope you've embalmed enough of her Robster. Have you an idea of how thick the neat epoxy coating was, before you assembled? I would think this is key to success in your case, as CPES just doesn't work without a significant neat coating over it. This was one of the other things found in testing (among several interesting tid bits).

[robster]

Hello par, I apologize for not responding to you yet today, my earlier posts were just responding to gonzo. I had to go see a client and just got back.

Yes I agree that what I am doing is not for the average person to try and neither am I promoting it to anyone, I am just explaining some of the things that I have done with this project in response to this thread. But what I am hoping for is for people to get ideas to advance the wood boat building technology so that wooden boats will be better preserved and more of them to be built.
The testing that I have done with epoxy is from my own experience and am not trying to promote any product or trust any advertised claims. But I do know some things I have learned through personal use and testing of materials, although I am very open to any product that would outperform the epoxy that I am using.
For example, I never could get penetrating epoxy to hold up under any testing by just brushing it on the surface of the board. after putting it out in the sun, the UV rays would just peal it off. It wasn't until I started soaking the boards by submerging them that I got satisfactory results. also you are very correct that penetrating epoxy will only soak in on the first coat, if left to set up, the second coat will not do any benefit. that's why I submerge the boards in wet epoxy and let them soak for an hour.

As far as the West system epoxy, I apply three coats on the wood before installation. and drill all the fastener holes beforehand so that it will soak into the screw holes also. I would estimate that there is about 6 - 10 mills thick of epoxy on everything as I put it on fairly heavy per coat.

As far as the weather, we get a lot more rain than you guys in the south and therefore a lot less sun. but I am not concerned about the epoxy on the surface getting damaged by UV rays as it will never be exposed to the sun in my application.

One thing I did notice is this particular system I am using works well with mahogany but not so well with other wood material.

Since we are on the UV subject, I do have a question for you. I am looking for a urethane or varnish that would be best for mahogany decking as I am experimenting with using mahogany or white oak for my deck planking, as it is much more available and economical than using teak. the planking will be going over 3/4" plywood deck.

[PAR]

White oak will wear well, though likely to "fray" and raise a bit as it wears. Live oak will wear better and not display the bad habits of white, but it's heavier. Mahogany will wear moderately well in comparison and the dark color will be fairly hot in direct sun light.

The urethanes preform better then the traditional alkyd varnishes. The two part polyurethanes will preform the best. This said the LPU's can be difficult to apply and get the "feel" of. There's even some water born LPU's now that are preforming better then single part urethanes, but all the alkyds included, have their good and bad points.

Repairs are much more difficult on the urethanes, so you need to keep them in good shape or you have to strip the whole surface and start over. The multiple part formulations are the most difficult in this regard, as they are the hardest curing. Traditional alkyds are relatively easy to repair by comparison, but again you can't let the finish get away from you or it's hell to pay, bringing it back.

Lastly, the alkyds have a lovely amber glow that everyone likes, but the urethanes don't, so formulators are using pigments to simulate the amber tint. Some brands do this much better then others. I've used them all and like the preformance of Bristol Finish. It's an LPU, but look good, with the right color amber, so the traditionalists think you've applied and hand rubbed a couple dozen coats. Don't skimp on the number of coats. 6 would be a bare minimum with 10 or 12 being reasonable. Double these numbers if spraying. A show winning finish will have a coat count in the upper teens if not the 20's!

[robster]

Thanks for the input, I'm going to use white oak and put lots of coats of the two part polyurethane on it. I'm going to try the Bristol Finish Two-Part Urethane Varnish System.

[PAR]

Thin the first coat by no more then 20% by volume (less then 15% is better), but all other coats apply at the strength you can, given any environmental limitations. Lastly, don't over sand, 280 is about as high as you want to go, naturally with the grain, so put down the DA or jitter bug. Most folks need a magnifying glass to see the scratches left by 220 grit with the grain. If you get into the higher grits (320, etc.) then there's not enough "tooth" for the coating to "key" onto and it's peel strength is dramatically reduced.

[Boston]

interesting reading guys
cheers

[mikelake]

I am alittle bit confused by all of this so I have two questions. I own a 67 48' Constellation, and this is my first expierence with anything like this. I believe I have had some good help along the way.

1. I did not need to replace any boards below the waterline but I did pull the cotton out of the seams and replaced it with new cotton and dolfinite bedding compound. Will this give a watertite seal when the hull swells up?

2. What do you think about painting the hull above the waterline with latex paint so it can expand and contract?

[gonzo]

If the cotton was driven properly it will be Ok.
Oil base paint allows enough humidity through to swell the planks. Latex, or better acrylic/latex, can work above the waterline. It has a life expectancy of about ten years on a house and boats usually get better maintenance.

[robster]

There was latex paint on my Chris from the waterline up. The water had soaked right through it. I am not sure how long the previous owner had been using latex paint on the boat but I can say one thing for sure, I replaced 95% of all the original planking, ribs, battens, deck bows, all the bulkheads and inner framing of the boat because it was all rotten and water-soaked. Latex paint should never be used on a boat, it cannot handle the weather conditions, movement and moisture.
There is one thing about letting the wood breath, but I would rather have bare wood, than wood with latex on it.
There are some professional "Waterborne" paints that are design for marine use and some automotive paint that can be used for topside.

[michael pierzga]

If the cotton was driven properly it will be Ok.
Oil base paint allows enough humidity through to swell the planks. Latex, or better acrylic/latex, can work above the waterline. It has a life expectancy of about ten years on a house and boats usually get better maintenance.


Gonzo..YOU ARE STUCK ON STUPID...this is a batten seamed.. NON COTTON CAULKED HULL...REPEAT...NON COTTON HULL.

[gonzo]

Michael Pierzga: you have been insulting in several of your posts. If you put aside your asinine attitude and read what the question to my response was, you would realize the poster said he caulked the BOTTOM. I have extensive experience with Chris Crafts. You read a couple of obsolete books and think that gives you the right to talk down to people that actually work on boats and know what they are doing. Grow up!

[robster]

I agree, even if we dissagree which we will on sertain issues, this forum should not be used for namecalling and insults. Dissagreement is ok, thats how we learn from eachother. The reason that I started this thread is so that people can have input and get ideas from eachother. if I dissagree with anyone then I should be able to state my opinion constructively.

As far as cotton in th seams of my battens, I saw some cotton but was not consistant through out the hull when I was taking all the planks off. I am not sure if it was origional or someone repairing it from the past.

Interesting enough I saw some cotton on the bottom where it is double planked. Given that my boat is a 1967, it could have been done at the factory.
My advice is that if there is cotton on your boat seams, and you are just doing repairs, then repair it with cotton so that the movement and expansion will stay consistant, the only way you could change systems is if you are stripping it down completely and converting it to a different method such as I did.

[gonzo]

All the diagonal planking I've seen on those boats had some caulking in it. I think that cotton may be needed when the the plank edges have been crushed which makes the seams too big and the swelling won't take up the gap. Sometimes that happens from using hard compounds. Age, and many wet and drying cycles, will also make the seams wider than what swelling can take up.

[PAR]

A common trick employed by all of the era manufactures in batten seams, double planked builds, even lapstrakes (typically at the rabbit seam) is they would lay in a length of cotton string, usually at back and bottom of a joint. Even if the joint was to be clamped tight and fastened without traditional caulking (fibers and compound). The idea is the string (usually fairly small in diameter) would crush down when dry, but swell when wet, pressing against the faying surfaces of each plank and making a seal.

As far as real pounded in cotton, this isn't very common, but sometimes was used to fix irregular seams as an economic option. The alternative would have been to remove the plank and make a cheater or better fitting plank, which of course is a much more costly, even if proper, approach.

Michael Pierzga has been challenged in dozens of different threads to explain his many claims and suggestions. With rare exception, he has proven he "over speaks" what he actually knows and has become more then a bit helpless (or maybe hapless is a better term) possibly feeling rebuked, once too many times. Personally, I'm sorry the forum has to suffer from his incessant dribble about things he knows little off, but hey it's a free discussion board and this freedom to speak, may be more then he's accustomed to.

[Tobin]

Robbie, that sure is a lot of work you are putting into that old boat! I think your ideas are pretty sound and interesting. I have a 63 42' CCC big pile of junk I have been working on for years. I have been restoring old stuff for a while..I built my first boat when I was twelve to fetch golf balls out of the golf course lakes for my pops...well it floated and didn't take much effort to keep it that way. I think the way the ribs and battens are originally designed in these old woodies give you a bit of room for improvement. Look at at how much technology has changed in the last 50 years...I think she'll run longer than we will if your motors are sound! I've got twin Lincoln 430s..they are sitting in my machine shop right now as I am a major gear-head...I've spent the last two years debating a re-power with some small v-8 diesels (Just put a crate 502 in a 69 z-28, but I don't think it'll float!!) ...something compatible to my personal needs and desires...gas too in-efficient..parts tough to find. Its a bare hull now and no hurry, sits inside year round. "What the hell am I doing!!!" I wonder sometimes...but it sure is a fun escape!