Buck Marine Diesel

[timbillyosu]

Just wanted to get the word out on a new Diesel engine. The engine is called a Buck Marine Diesel.

I work at Buck Marine Diesel. We are currently developing a prototype diesel engine specifically designed for inboard marine use. We're still working on things right now. We're getting VERY close to getting the first prototype fully up and running. We had it running yesterday for about an hour at around 2000 rpm without any problems. We need to do a little more work to get our dyno fully-functional but things are going good.

Since we didn't have the dyno working properly, we're not positive on the actual power numbers. However, while running under a moderate load at about 2000 rpm, the exhaust temperatures were around 1000 degrees F. We ran under those conditions for about 15 minutes. The hottest that the coolant pump got was about 120 degrees F. None of the 6 heads were over 140 degrees and all of them were within about 5 degrees of one another. You could lay your hands on top of the valve covers.

Check out our website for further pictures and videos.

Feel free to ask any questions that you have.

http://www.buckdiesel.com

[kengrome]

Whaat is the size / weight / horsepower of the smallest engine you'll be manufacturing?

[timbillyosu]

The smallest engine will be a 3-cylinder. It should weigh about 750 lbs when fully ready to run. The overall size dimensions are listed on our website under the specifications tab. We are estimating around 350-400 HP from it.

[timbillyosu]

They are inline engines.

Here's a little more information on the design:

We are currently working on a 6-cylinder model with 3- and 4-cylinder models to follow. The engines have a unique two injector per cylinder design that will increase the fuel mapping potential exponentially and result in lower emissions capability. The family of engines will range from 150 to 700 HP and have been designed from the bottom up with a totally different approach. These engines are capable of exceptional cooling, allowing for substantial improvements in power output while increasing longevity.

The cooling path for this engine is a fraction of most engines. In the classic designs, coolant flows into the front of the engine, all the way back to the rear cylinder, then back out the front. This means that the rear cylinder is always receiving water that has already been heated by the previous cylinders.

In the Buck Marine system, the coolant flows individually into and out of each cylinder. This means that the all of the cylinders will be operating at the same temperature at all times. Using individual and shorter cooling paths, will also help eliminate hot spots and temperature stacking.

The engine also has a dual cooling system that uses both an internal coolant as well as circulating raw water from whatever body of water the boat is in. This cooling system will keep the engine running cool, allowing us to generate more power. If a problem should arise, the engine is also very serviceable.

The modular cylinder design allows for easy maintenance. With our design, you can change an individual cylinder, head, piston, and connecting rod without having to remove the crank case. We are estimating that the entire upper half of the engine (cylinders, heads, pistons, and connecting rods ) could be entirely replaced in about 2 hours time. Each of the aforementioned parts is also interchangeable with each of the other cylinders. In addition, nearly every seal is made with an o-ring of some form, meaning that the gasket set for the entire engine can fit in a gallon-sized plastic bag. These two factors will significantly reduce part inventory. A video of the connecting rod replacement procedure is available on the website.

[kengrome]

I like the engineering, there's no doubt about that! But the engines are a bit too big for the boats I usually build these days so I will keep an eye on them for the future -- because you never know what changes lie ahead ...

:)

[marshmat]

After a cursory glance, a few of the things I like about it:
- Gear driven cams and pumps
- Ease of servicing (in-place rebuild? wow!) with relatively small spare parts inventory
- Modular design with a lot of shared components between models
- Dual injector technology looks pretty cool, curious to see how well it works

And a few uncertainties:
- Dual cooling system; for a boat that lives in saltwater I have a hard time liking the idea of any raw water touching the engine; can the raw-water loop be filled with coolant and piped to a keel cooler instead?
- Availability of parts; in the event that it does need to be repaired somewhere on the coast of Angola, will parts be available?

What kind of duty cycle are we talking about, and with how many engine hours between overhauls? Will there be multiple ratings available (ie, a 200 hp version that's good for 15,000 h between overhauls and a 300 hp version of the same engine that needs work every 7,000 h)?

[timbillyosu]

Matt, the raw water isn't pumped directly into the engine. Their is an internal coolant system that enters the engine. The raw water is only pumped through the oil cooler, transcooler, fuel chiller, and a heat exchanger located inside of the exhaust manifold where the heat is removed from the internal coolant.

When things are scaled up to production, I'll make sure Angola gets put on our mailing list :-)

[FAST FRED]

Sounds like you have got the repairability of the old Volvo MD series , just hope you don't end up with Volvo pricing.

Have you an early fuel map? For 150-200hp.

Will you be springing the big bucks to get Euro Tier 3 and other certs?

Good luck on a creative adventure.

FF

[TollyWally]

What a bold undertaking. I am impressed with what I've seen so far.

[timbillyosu]

We're still working on developing the fuel map.

As for other certs, that's a little down the line as of yet...

[FAST FRED]

You folks have my admiration , taking on DD, MTU , and converters like Deere is a big undertaling.

If your looking for a testbed , let me know.IF the fuel consumption is world class in about 80 -130 hp delivered.

FF

[timbillyosu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5PkOV6gxZA - Video of the Engine Running

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsgCHbptRRc - Upper End Replacement

[cmdjames]

The modular cylinder design is interesting. However, it sounds very expensive to manufacture. I am not really understanding how 2 injectors per cylinder will increase effeciency or emmisions. There are currently injection systems available that can perform 5 pre injections, 3 main injections, and 5 post injections. How much additional control could one possibly need? Are you going for EPA Tier 2 / IMO certifications right now? Who performed your combustion mapping? Sorry for the questions, but I am always interested in the thought process behind certain new engine designs.

[timbillyosu]

The engines will be a bit more expensive than others, but the first time you have a problem and have to service it, you will probably come close to making up that margin.

The injectors are different size. A large and a small. For idling and low power applications the small injector could be use. When more power is required, the large is used and the small is used for pre-injection.

We will be going for full certification as soon as we have the prototype fully running and tested.

We haven't fully mapped the combustion cycles yet. That is actually something we are currently working.

[cmdjames]

The engines will be a bit more expensive than others, but the first time you have a problem and have to service it, you will probably come close to making up that margin.

The injectors are different size. A large and a small. For idling and low power applications the small injector could be use. When more power is required, the large is used and the small is used for pre-injection.

We will be going for full certification as soon as we have the prototype fully running and tested.

We haven't fully mapped the combustion cycles yet. That is actually something we are currently working.
That is interesting. You are taking a complicated system and simplifying it. I hope the injector thing works out the way you want it to. When I worked at Fiat, we spent a lot of time on the injection pulses. They had settled on 3 - 1 - 2 when the Alfa engine was completed. I guess this gets you around having to use a Bosch or Denso fuel system. Combustion mapping is the most expensive and important part of development. It almost always has to be outsourced in order to do it right. Good luck and I will be reading on here and your website to see how the project progresses. Whenever you get a torque curve, make sure you post it up. That should be some nice advertisement and proof that your ideas work. :cool:

[Kay9]

Great project, and great post. Its good to see people with innovative ideas come here with facts and figures. I hope this works out, I would certainly put my 3 boats up as candidates for repower with your engines.

K9

[marshmat]

Agreed... this is looking very promising.

I can see how it would be a bit more expensive up-front; it's a new design, and the efficient mass-production systems used by the 'big guys' do not scale well to smaller companies with new technology. But I think with some careful engineering and optimization of the various fabrication and assembly processes, it could be competitive.

If the torque curve looks as nice as the thing sounds, you may have a winner. The trick, IMHO, will be marketing..... not an easy task in a field dominated by a few longstanding, ruthless rivals.

[timbillyosu]

matt, that is one thing we're concerned with too. We're the first new diesel engine company in the US in about 100 yrs. Kind of cool to think about :)

[riclonz]

The test trials you've got on your new engine yielded a very high exhaust gas temperature already. Normally, diesel engines in power and marine applications usually operate at 500 deg. C (932 deg F) limit, such that you have already exceeded by around 68 deg. F. It will surely cause you overheat problems and valves will be burned in prolonged operation.

I understand that this will be turbocharged engine considering that you are using two (2) injectors per cylinder. It's the first time that I've encountered an engine having two injectors per cyl. Although you might want to operate it alternately during low load (small injector) and high load (the bigger injector), why not just controlling the amount of fuel injected during those load shifts with only one injector. I think you will be having many controls if you're doubling up the hardware, notwithstanding twice the amount of maintenance to be done later on.

Is this might be the reason of high EGT? You're loading more fuel without charging more air to the cylinder, therefore decreasing the air-fuel ratio. And I don't believe that you're getting cleaner emissions with more fuel burned without increasing your charged air.

The coolant temperatures are too early to tell because its a new engine, however, considering the very high exhaust gas temperature early in the game and at moderate load, it surely will increase dramatically during actual use. And you said that you're using saltwater for lube oil cooler? I think its already a bad concept since any leaks inside will surely wreak your crankcase lube system. Better to use fresh water cause its one less of a headache if contamination occurs (saltwater is more corrosive than fresh).

But I appreciate though your good concept in cooling each and every cylinder separately. Its a good idea and just hope the design would not complicate maintenance activities especially for guys doing the major overhauls.

More power to you!



Just wanted to get the word out on a new Diesel engine. The engine is called a Buck Marine Diesel.

I work at Buck Marine Diesel. We are currently developing a prototype diesel engine specifically designed for inboard marine use. We're still working on things right now. We're getting VERY close to getting the first prototype fully up and running. We had it running yesterday for about an hour at around 2000 rpm without any problems. We need to do a little more work to get our dyno fully-functional but things are going good.

Since we didn't have the dyno working properly, we're not positive on the actual power numbers. However, while running under a moderate load at about 2000 rpm, the exhaust temperatures were around 1000 degrees F. We ran under those conditions for about 15 minutes. The hottest that the coolant pump got was about 120 degrees F. None of the 6 heads were over 140 degrees and all of them were within about 5 degrees of one another. You could lay your hands on top of the valve covers.

Check out our website for further pictures and videos.

Feel free to ask any questions that you have.

http://www.buckdiesel.com

[timbillyosu]

The test trials you've got on your new engine yielded a very high exhaust gas temperature already. Normally, diesel engines in power and marine applications usually operate at 500 deg. C (932 deg F) limit, such that you have already exceeded by around 68 deg. F. It will surely cause you overheat problems and valves will be burned in prolonged operation.

I understand that this will be turbocharged engine considering that you are using two (2) injectors per cylinder. It's the first time that I've encountered an engine having two injectors per cyl. Although you might want to operate it alternately during low load (small injector) and high load (the bigger injector), why not just controlling the amount of fuel injected during those load shifts with only one injector. I think you will be having many controls if you're doubling up the hardware, notwithstanding twice the amount of maintenance to be done later on.

Is this might be the reason of high EGT? You're loading more fuel without charging more air to the cylinder, therefore decreasing the air-fuel ratio. And I don't believe that you're getting cleaner emissions with more fuel burned without increasing your charged air.

The coolant temperatures are too early to tell because its a new engine, however, considering the very high exhaust gas temperature early in the game and at moderate load, it surely will increase dramatically during actual use. And you said that you're using saltwater for lube oil cooler? I think its already a bad concept since any leaks inside will surely wreak your crankcase lube system. Better to use fresh water cause its one less of a headache if contamination occurs (saltwater is more corrosive than fresh).

But I appreciate though your good concept in cooling each and every cylinder separately. Its a good idea and just hope the design would not complicate maintenance activities especially for guys doing the major overhauls.

More power to you!


The exhaust gas temperatures are not that high. Yanmar's standard for their engines are around 1350 deg F. When we had a problem, we have had our heads and carrier over 350 deg F (someone forgot to put a key in the coolant pump shaft, so we had no coolant circulation once it got hot enough for the impeller to expand and slip) without having any problems. We ran it until it locked up, which it did from a connecting rod issue that we have since solved. When we disassembled the engine, we did not burn a valve, butt a ring, or cook a piston. All of the upper end components were perfectly fine and reusable.

The injectors will be alternated as you said, using the small for low load/idling and the larger for high power. We may also use the smaller injector for a pre-ignition injection at high power. The reasoning behind using 2 injectors is simple. To get the maximum amount of power out of an engine, you have to have an injector large enough to inject the required amount of fuel for that kind of power. Unfortunately, that means at low power, no matter how much it is dialed back, you are still putting more fuel into the cylinder than you can burn. We are trying to reduce emissions and increase fuel economy. While there is a slight increase in the amount of hardware and software needed, it is not an extreme amount more.

The test data posted and videos shown are using a single injector setup because we have had some issues finding companies to reliably supply us with good injectors. This will be solved by making our own in the future. As of right now, we are using a single, standard Bosch injector.

You said:

"The coolant temperatures are too early to tell because its a new engine, however, considering the very high exhaust gas temperature early in the game and at moderate load, it surely will increase dramatically during actual use. "

I don't understand how being a new engine will effect the coolant temperatures... We did have more than a moderate load on the engine at the time. As I said, our dyno wasn't working so we don't know exact numbers, but our water brake valve was open nearly all the way and the engine was running at about 2400 rpm. There was a fairly heavy load being placed on it.

There is NO saltwater getting into any part of the engine other than through a tube-pack style heat exchanger located inside of the exhaust manifold. The raw water (it would only be salt if you were in the ocean) is drawn from whatever body of water the boat is sitting in and passed the heat exchanger and oil cooler. A separate, oil-based coolant is pumped around the cylinders, through the heads,and around the heat exchanger before being sent back through the system.

You don't seem to full realize the amount of time, labor, and machining the engine will REMOVE from the overhaul process. We are estimating that a complete 6-cylinder engine overhaul that includes rod bearings, rods, pistons, cylinders, heads, injectors, rockers, rocker shafts, and push rods should only take about TWO (2) HOURS! And it can be done without removing the engine from the boat or removing the oil pan. All of this work can be done from the top using only a few simple hand tools.

If you have any more questions or need more clarification, please feel free to ask.

[KnottyBuoyz]

If you have any more questions or need more clarification, please feel free to ask.
When can I expect the arrival of my 3 cyl 50 hp model? ;)

Honestly I'd love to have one of your engines in our trawler project. Right now we're considering diesel/electric. Being a bit of a technophile I'd be more than happy to offer my boat as a test bed for your engine! If all goes well we'll begin construction int he spring of a 31' L x 10' W stitch & glue trawler.

Keeping an eye on your progress and good luck.

[riclonz]

But I still have some clarifications....

You said that:

"We may also use the smaller injector for a pre-ignition injection at high power."

At what degrees before TDC (top-dead-center) do you intend to inject the fuel? Although injecting fuel a few degrees before TDC might increase the Pmax (max. firing pressure), incorrect injection timing will also tend to induce negative force or work as shown in the PV or Pressure vs. crank angle diagram. Sudden increase of pressure will only be effective if done right before the TDC, if not, it will only create counterproductive force of the compressing piston, thus, lowering the Pmax. Increasing PMax has its downward effect such as increasing the EGT.

Also, if you use the small injector during idling (low power), is it automatically adjusting its fuel injection timing? Is it different than when both (larger and smaller injector) are operating? Or shall it take the setting of the larger one which is more appropriate? You already said that its use for pre-ignition when both are operating. Is there flexibility when it is at idling?

You said that:

"The raw water (it would only be salt if you were in the ocean) is drawn from whatever body of water the boat is sitting in and passed the heat exchanger and oil cooler."

If you are manufacturing that heavy engines surely it will be most applicable for propulsion for seawater boats. As you said, you are circulating it on the heat exchanger (for fresh jacket cooling water) and OIL COOLER. I suggest that you should not include the oil cooler here. Leaks which is a very common problem in the marine engine installations, if that happens will surely wreak not just the system but the whole engine as well.

Thanks again if you care to reply.:)

The exhaust gas temperatures are not that high. Yanmar's standard for their engines are around 1350 deg F. When we had a problem, we have had our heads and carrier over 350 deg F (someone forgot to put a key in the coolant pump shaft, so we had no coolant circulation once it got hot enough for the impeller to expand and slip) without having any problems. We ran it until it locked up, which it did from a connecting rod issue that we have since solved. When we disassembled the engine, we did not burn a valve, butt a ring, or cook a piston. All of the upper end components were perfectly fine and reusable.

The injectors will be alternated as you said, using the small for low load/idling and the larger for high power. We may also use the smaller injector for a pre-ignition injection at high power. The reasoning behind using 2 injectors is simple. To get the maximum amount of power out of an engine, you have to have an injector large enough to inject the required amount of fuel for that kind of power. Unfortunately, that means at low power, no matter how much it is dialed back, you are still putting more fuel into the cylinder than you can burn. We are trying to reduce emissions and increase fuel economy. While there is a slight increase in the amount of hardware and software needed, it is not an extreme amount more.

The test data posted and videos shown are using a single injector setup because we have had some issues finding companies to reliably supply us with good injectors. This will be solved by making our own in the future. As of right now, we are using a single, standard Bosch injector.

You said:

"The coolant temperatures are too early to tell because its a new engine, however, considering the very high exhaust gas temperature early in the game and at moderate load, it surely will increase dramatically during actual use. "

I don't understand how being a new engine will effect the coolant temperatures... We did have more than a moderate load on the engine at the time. As I said, our dyno wasn't working so we don't know exact numbers, but our water brake valve was open nearly all the way and the engine was running at about 2400 rpm. There was a fairly heavy load being placed on it.

There is NO saltwater getting into any part of the engine other than through a tube-pack style heat exchanger located inside of the exhaust manifold. The raw water (it would only be salt if you were in the ocean) is drawn from whatever body of water the boat is sitting in and passed the heat exchanger and oil cooler. A separate, oil-based coolant is pumped around the cylinders, through the heads,and around the heat exchanger before being sent back through the system.

You don't seem to full realize the amount of time, labor, and machining the engine will REMOVE from the overhaul process. We are estimating that a complete 6-cylinder engine overhaul that includes rod bearings, rods, pistons, cylinders, heads, injectors, rockers, rocker shafts, and push rods should only take about TWO (2) HOURS! And it can be done without removing the engine from the boat or removing the oil pan. All of this work can be done from the top using only a few simple hand tools.

If you have any more questions or need more clarification, please feel free to ask.

[timbillyosu]

But I still have some clarifications....

You said that:

"We may also use the smaller injector for a pre-ignition injection at high power."

At what degrees before TDC (top-dead-center) do you intend to inject the fuel? Although injecting fuel a few degrees before TDC might increase the Pmax (max. firing pressure), incorrect injection timing will also tend to induce negative force or work as shown in the PV or Pressure vs. crank angle diagram. Sudden increase of pressure will only be effective if done right before the TDC, if not, it will only create counterproductive force of the compressing piston, thus, lowering the Pmax. Increasing PMax has its downward effect such as increasing the EGT.

Also, if you use the small injector during idling (low power), is it automatically adjusting its fuel injection timing? Is it different than when both (larger and smaller injector) are operating? Or shall it take the setting of the larger one which is more appropriate? You already said that its use for pre-ignition when both are operating. Is there flexibility when it is at idling?

You said that:

"The raw water (it would only be salt if you were in the ocean) is drawn from whatever body of water the boat is sitting in and passed the heat exchanger and oil cooler."

If you are manufacturing that heavy engines surely it will be most applicable for propulsion for seawater boats. As you said, you are circulating it on the heat exchanger (for fresh jacket cooling water) and OIL COOLER. I suggest that you should not include the oil cooler here. Leaks which is a very common problem in the marine engine installations, if that happens will surely wreak not just the system but the whole engine as well.

Thanks again if you care to reply.:)


We are still working on the complete fuel map. Once the engine is mapped, I will be able to tell you more about the injection timings of each injector. We are using electronic injectors, so a small board gives us full control over the injector pulse width, timing before TDC, and fuel pump duty cycle.

As for the oil cooler, the cooler is a copper-nickle tubed cooler. This type of cooler is used extensively throughout the marine market. We have yet to have a problem with it. The same type of cooler is also used for transmission coolers. This type is used to take some of the load off of the engine coolant.

Knotty, we are hoping for more like 400 HP out of our 3 cylinder :)
I would like to hear more about your project though. My e-mail is tim@buckdiesel.com

[KnottyBuoyz]

Knotty, we are hoping for more like 400 HP out of our 3 cylinder :)
Oh ok, well cound me in for a 1 cyl version then! :)

So far it's a Jacques Mertens designed TW28 stretched almost 40" which will bring it to almost 31'-6"x 10' beam.

http://www.bateau.com/studyplans/TW28_study.htm?prod=TW28

Designer calls for 30 to 50 hp for the original and has stated that up to 80 hp would be ok as long as the weight doesn't exceed specs. (still waiting for that figure but I'm guessing it's around 500 lbs. Being a gadget-a-holic I've been considering a diesel/electric setup. The concept I like the most is the Fisher Panda Aziprop but the bottom line price would likey be the determining factor (we're building out of pocket) and pretty much any diesel/electric setup is at least double the cost of a conventional direct drive diesel.

[FAST FRED]

"Designer calls for 30 to 50 hp for the original and has stated that up to 80 hp would be ok as long as the weight doesn't exceed specs.'

Bigger isn't better , FULLY LOADED is far better.

Well OK, a 70% load at the rpm required to cruise will usually still give efficency , although 80% loading will give better fuel use and longer life.

80 Hp is fine if tou wiah to attempt to run at semi disp speeds SL x 1.6 or so at 4 or 5 GPH..

I would guess a SL 1.1 would cost 1/2 to 3/4 gph.with a -35 rated hp engine.

You choose ,it is your Ca$h.

FF

[StianM]

What is the material, cast steel or aluminum?
Where is the camshaft located?
2 or 4 valves?

[timbillyosu]

What is the material, cast steel or aluminum?
Where is the camshaft located?
2 or 4 valves?

The engine carrier is gray cast iron. The heads and cylinder jugs are aluminum and there is a ductile iron sleeve pressed into the jugs for the piston to ride in.

The camshaft is located inside of the carrier.

The current configuration is a 2-valve.

[StianM]

Metric or imperial system?

[timbillyosu]

Imperial

[StianM]

Imperial

When are you going to learn?
I will find something else to put in my hull.

[timbillyosu]

umm... easy there chief... We live in America. That's what we use.

[ed fitz]

When are you planing on selling the engine and do you have any prices 300h.p.?

[timbillyosu]

The engines won't be in full production for another year and a half or so. The 3-cylinder will be priced around $25,000.

[timbillyosu]

Just letting everyone know, we have the engine up and running again. Power numbers will be coming soon... having a few issues with dyno calibration, but we will hopefully have those sorted out this week.

[timbillyosu]

We have some preliminary power numbers.

So far, we have only gotten about 160 Hp at 9 gal/hr fuel burn. My boss's boat has 2 Cat diesels, when he is burning 35 gal/hr, he gets about 565 Hp. So let's assume it's a linear trend, at 36 gal/hr (4x our current fuel burn), we will be getting about 640 Hp! We are working to adjust our BSFC. These numbers were made with a BSFC around 0.45. We are still extremely happy with these numbers and as soon as we get more, I will be sure to let everyone know.

[FAST FRED]

"160 Hp at 9 gal/hr fuel burn"

Your just at the state of a Detroit 2 stroke , no turbo, 2 valve head.

In other words about 1936 in terms of power per gallon of fuel burned.

Hopefully it will get closer to 25+ hp per gallon , over a very large area of your fuel map.BEST Efficiency , only at full throttle is hard to use for most boaters.

FF

[timbillyosu]

As I said, we still have a lot of tuning to do. These are just some "hey look, we're actually getting SOMETHING" numbers.

[FAST FRED]

When you finish ,,PLEASE PLEASE publish the fuel map!

For folks attempting to create an efficient cruising boat , the mfg nonsense of publishing a prop curve vs hp is totally useless.

Most don't give a DAMN at how it works at full 100% load , and "Theory" prop curves give no help at most cruise requirements in knowing the fuel/ hp actually produced.

IT is HELL attempting to get a real fuel map from almost all the engine builders and converters.

FF

[timbillyosu]

Hey all, sorry it has been a little while since I've posted. I've got a new clip of our engine. Check it out:

Cylinder Tear Down and Rebuild (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnFOy5qtITc)

In this video, we take a running engine, shut it down and tear down a single cylinder to the bare crankshaft, rebuild it, and start the engine back up. All in less than 8 minutes!

Don't believe me? Watch it :-)

Let me know if you have any questions.

[Stumble]

That video may be your best piece of marketing ever. To see a marine diesel rebuilt in under an hour (7:30*6=45 minutes) is not only impressive it is a game changer in terms of servicability. As I read your previos posts you could carry an entire engine rebuild kit (for 1 cylinder) at all times, which would seriously reduce the required dealer inventory of parts.

The one thing I couldn't get a grasp on from your website was where the oil filter/drain plug is. I know it is a minor design issue, but with tight engine rooms the ability to easily access filters, pumps, and other common maintenance issues is critical. If you haven't already, the ability to swap these components from one side to the other (or order the engine in either configuration), as well as top mounted when required would be another game changer for a lot of applications.

Also have you gotten any revised performance numbers since the last time? I am curious about the current fuel efficiency numbers look like.

[timbillyosu]

That video may be your best piece of marketing ever. To see a marine diesel rebuilt in under an hour (7:30*6=45 minutes) is not only impressive it is a game changer in terms of servicability. As I read your previos posts you could carry an entire engine rebuild kit (for 1 cylinder) at all times, which would seriously reduce the required dealer inventory of parts.

The one thing I couldn't get a grasp on from your website was where the oil filter/drain plug is. I know it is a minor design issue, but with tight engine rooms the ability to easily access filters, pumps, and other common maintenance issues is critical. If you haven't already, the ability to swap these components from one side to the other (or order the engine in either configuration), as well as top mounted when required would be another game changer for a lot of applications.

Also have you gotten any revised performance numbers since the last time? I am curious about the current fuel efficiency numbers look like.

The filter will be mounted on the right side of the engine, just above the fuel pump.

As for oil draining, the strainer is located in the front of the oil pan. It is easy to remove the strainer to clean it and drain the oil in the process.

We're still having some dyno issues, so the efficiency numbers are still up in the air a little.

[Stumble]

Tim,

The problem as I see it is that most engine rooms are incredibly difficult to work in, with little to no room given over to maintenance. Yes this is more of a builder problem than an engine manufacturer problem, but that being said... I worked on a sailboat where the engine space was so tight that in order to change the oil filter we had to remove the heat exchanger just to thread the old filter out and the new one in. Ever since then I have wondered how hard it would be to reroute the oil plumbing so that depending on the instaliation the location would be easier to get to.

[FAST FRED]

Cant tell from the rebuild series , but are all the service items mounted on top?

Air filter ,injection pump, oil filter , starter , alternator , oil fill and any heat exchangers?

A starter in the bilge would NOT be an advance.

FF

[timbillyosu]

Tim,

The problem as I see it is that most engine rooms are incredibly difficult to work in, with little to no room given over to maintenance. Yes this is more of a builder problem than an engine manufacturer problem, but that being said... I worked on a sailboat where the engine space was so tight that in order to change the oil filter we had to remove the heat exchanger just to thread the old filter out and the new one in. Ever since then I have wondered how hard it would be to reroute the oil plumbing so that depending on the instaliation the location would be easier to get to.


With our design, we are about 10" narrower and 10" shorter in height than other diesels of this power range. We have tried to design every piece of this so it is easy to get to and work on without a lot of hassle. Have we eliminated every problem? No. Would we like to? Of course, unfortunately we are also trying to avoid more complexity than we feel is necessary.

Cant tell from the rebuild series , but are all the service items mounted on top?

Air filter ,injection pump, oil filter , starter , alternator , oil fill and any heat exchangers?

A starter in the bilge would NOT be an advance.

FF

The air filter is the large black thing that is leaning down on the right side (as you look at it in the video) of the engine. The injection pump is mounted right on the back side of the right side of the front cover. The starter is below the intake manifold on the right side. It will be secured with 2 bolts that will NOT be interfering with the body of the starter (no more 1/4 turns with a wrench trying to remove the starter). The alternator will be mounted on the left side above the front cover. Oil is filled through the pan rails with a fill neck that will be able to be mounted on either side of the engine. The heat exchanger is a tube pack style that is mounted inside of the exhaust manifold. To remove it, all you need to do is remove the 2 elbows on either end of the manifold and slide it out. The fuel chiller is mounted to the top of the bellhousing, behind the #6 cylinder. The oil cooler is mounted on the left side, below the exhaust manifold.

I will try to snap some pictures of all this later today and get them up here.

[FAST FRED]

Since this engine is pri$y and intended for the "big boys" is there a couple of PTO mounts for the usual hydraulic pump or engine driven bilge / fire pump?

Standard on every Detroit Diesel, since 1936.



FF

[timbillyosu]

Since this engine is pri$y and intended for the "big boys" is there a couple of PTO mounts for the usual hydraulic pump or engine driven bilge / fire pump?

Standard on every Detroit Diesel, since 1936.

FF

Fred, I don't recall saying this engine would be pricey OR intended for the "big boys."

If I have said anything about price it would have been that these will be priced competitively in the market for engines of this output.

Also, our family of engines (the 3,4, and 6 cylinder engines) will range from 150 to 650 Hp. I'd say that would fit anything from 20 up to 70 feet or so.

[marshmat]

Hi Tim,

Fred may be a bit of a cynic, but there is a valid point raised there- as much as an engine builder tries to make the "perfect" engine, there will always be some applications where it's necessary to add accessories. An offshore cruiser might want to mount an extra, giant alternator. A boat with active stabilizers might need a big load-sensing hydraulic pump (although these often mount to the transmission now, it seems). When you get a chance, would you be able to elaborate on what provisions the Buck diesel includes for aftermarket accessory installation? That is to say, are there places to mount extra brackets, can it handle an extra crankshaft pulley that might be sapping as much as 10-15 hp, etc.?

[FAST FRED]

"I don't recall saying this engine would be pricey OR intended for the "big boys."

"The 3-cylinder will be priced around $25,000."

Compared to an OTS truck or earth mover block it certainly isn't going to be inexpensive.

Should it be able to create 400hp for 24/7 rated use the price looks better .

Should the weight be 1/2 or 1/3 the OTS competition , or the fuel burn far better , $25K would probably be great!

FF

[timbillyosu]

"I don't recall saying this engine would be pricey OR intended for the "big boys."

"The 3-cylinder will be priced around $25,000."

Compared to an OTS truck or earth mover block it certainly isn't going to be inexpensive.

Should it be able to create 400hp for 24/7 rated use the price looks better .

Should the weight be 1/2 or 1/3 the OTS competition , or the fuel burn far better , $25K would probably be great!

FF

Ok, but compare it to another 3-cylinder marine engine block.

I won't lie and say it can make the power forever without breaking down. We haven't tested that yet. When we get some solid longevity numbers, I'll let you know.

I can tell you now that the 6 is roughly 1/2 the weight of any other 650 hp model that I know of. I'll have to do some checking around but I'd say the 3 should follow suit pretty closely.

[wardd]

can 6 run on fewer than 6 cylinders if so how few?

[timbillyosu]

can 6 run on fewer than 6 cylinders if so how few?

It would be possible but NOT recommended. The biggest issue is one of balance. When you remove a cylinder, you lose all the reciprocating mass of the piston and rod.

[wardd]

may be the difference of getting back

[Stumble]

Actually this raises an interesting issue for this engin. Since it is so easy to remove one cylinder would it be preferable to leave in a blown one or take it out to limp home.

On a similar note since i lost an injector this weekend, what would be the recommended procedure to limp home on due to the twin injector system?

[FAST FRED]

"Actually this raises an interesting issue for this engin. Since it is so easy to remove one cylinder would it be preferable to leave in a blown one or take it out to limp home."

"can 6 run on fewer than 6 cylinders if so how few?
It would be possible but NOT recommended. The biggest issue is one of balance. When you remove a cylinder, you lose all the reciprocating mass of the piston and rod."

Since it takes but a few min to remove a cylinder a simple pre-made counter weight ,that matches the piston and rod reciprocating weight and a block off plate should allow the 6 to be reduced in stages to a single , if needed??


FF

[timbillyosu]

Since it takes but a few min to remove a cylinder a simple pre-made counter weight ,that matches the piston and rod reciprocating weight and a block off plate should allow the 6 to be reduced in stages to a single , if needed??

FF

I'm not sure about dropping it all the way to a single. That is a lot of weight for one cylinder to be pushing around. We have been discussing this for a while and we're still not sure. I'm sure at some point down the road we will try it. I will be sure to let everyone know about the results.

[gonzo]

You don't seem to full realize the amount of time, labor, and machining the engine will REMOVE from the overhaul process. We are estimating that a complete 6-cylinder engine overhaul that includes rod bearings, rods, pistons, cylinders, heads, injectors, rockers, rocker shafts, and push rods should only take about TWO (2) HOURS! And it can be done without removing the engine from the boat or removing the oil pan. All of this work can be done from the top using only a few simple hand tools.

If you have any more questions or need more clarification, please feel free to ask.
Come on now. We all want to sell our products, but two hours is BS.

[timbillyosu]

Come on now. We all want to sell our products, but two hours is BS.

gonzo, how do you figure it is BS? Haven't you watched the video I posted? If we can change one cylinder in 8 minutes, why couldn't we do 6 in 2 hours?

[Stumble]

Gonzo,

Scroll back in the thread and look for the link to them changing out a cylinder. Including a few minutes talking about what was going to happen,and a few minutes running the rebuilt engine the video of changing out a head was about seven and a half minutes long. Take that times six heads and you get 45 minutes. The video by the way starts and stops with the enging running!

So in this I think there is no doubt that the manufacturers claim of 2 hours is if anything conservative. Heck I would be willing to bet they could have done all six in thirty minutes. This is what I meant earlier when I said that the video may be the best piece of marketing film they could ever create.

[FAST FRED]

A fast rebuild time is nice , esp if no specialized tools are required , and any reasonable mechanic could watch a video and do a workman like job.

Overhauls or rebuilds are usually sked long in advance , not done on the fishing grounds between net sets .

GET HOME , ability is of far more concern to most , as the price of a tow may be many times the cost of a new factory engine.
So how it dies , is more a concern than how many minuets to rebuild .

At one time Volvo made a 6 cylinder version of the old MD3B.

They were not exported but did end up on many 40-55 ft sail boats , frequently with CPP as an auxiliary.

I have seen one of these started with all decompression levers , up and 2 BIG guys each with a crank, at either end of the engine.

IT would start , on one cylinder , and run long enough to slowly let the other cylinders be brought on line.

Weather it would actually produce enough power to move the boat was never attempted.

The broke crew was delighted just to get it running!

FF

[timbillyosu]

A fast rebuild time is nice , esp if no specialized tools are required , and any reasonable mechanic could watch a video and do a workman like job.

Overhauls or rebuilds are usually sked long in advance , not done on the fishing grounds between net sets .

GET HOME , ability is of far more concern to most , as the price of a tow may be many times the cost of a new factory engine.
So how it dies , is more a concern than how many minuets to rebuild .


Have you seen the stuff that Capt. Phil has gone through on Deadliest Catch? Scoring a cylinder, having to limp back to port and spend $65,000 just on the repair work, not counting what time he lost by not fishing. Now imagine if he had an engine like ours. He could have rebuilt that cylinder while at sea and been back underway, probably within an hour.

[wardd]

could it be sold as a 3 or 4 and then later made a 6?

another advantage might be for long range cruising to use no more of an engine than you need for economy and full engine for weather and docking etc.

[timbillyosu]

could it be sold as a 3 or 4 and then later made a 6?

another advantage might be for long range cruising to use no more of an engine than you need for economy and full engine for weather and docking etc.

No. The long parts do not interchange. (carrier, crank, cam, etc.) Unless you mean buying a 6 and only having 3 active cylinders. I'm not sure on that one. I don't think it would work. There would be a lot of stuff that you would have to change to make it possible.

[FAST FRED]

I'm not sure on that one. I don't think it would work. There would be a lot of stuff that you would have to change to make it possible.


Lots of cars run on reduced cylinder count as an "economy" measure.

They simply cut off the fuel to the cylinder , and its not bad as most of the energy compressing air is returned on the down stroke.

To keep the cylinders warm and not loaded with oil they change the dead cylinders around every few cycles.


This might be a big advance for a marine engine , perhaps for the economy ,but mostly to reduce damage from severe under loading.

FF

[timbillyosu]

I'm not sure on that one. I don't think it would work. There would be a lot of stuff that you would have to change to make it possible.


Lots of cars run on reduced cylinder count as an "economy" measure.

They simply cut off the fuel to the cylinder , and its not bad as most of the energy compressing air is returned on the down stroke.

To keep the cylinders warm and not loaded with oil they change the dead cylinders around every few cycles.


This might be a big advance for a marine engine , perhaps for the economy ,but mostly to reduce damage from severe under loading.

FF

Yeah, sorry. For some reason I wasn't even thinking about selective cylinder control. That is something we've talked about. I'm not sure how well it will actually work in a boat, but we will try it.

[apex1]

Yeah, sorry. For some reason I wasn't even thinking about selective cylinder control. That is something we've talked about. I'm not sure how well it will actually work in a boat, but we will try it.

Why should´nt that work? It did from the 30ies til now.
BTW what is the displacement of your engines?

[FAST FRED]

" For some reason I wasn't even thinking about selective cylinder control. That is something we've talked about. I'm not sure how well it will actually work in a boat, but we will try it."


PLEASE post the fuel map of the finished engine , and the fuel maps if you do give it a try.

Somehow fuel maps are harder to obtain than plans for a T88 nuke device.

Sure is hard to design an efficient vessel with some dumb prop curve.

FF

[Stumble]

I am under the impression that the real advantage of selective cylinder control is really advantageous in that it allows the enging to effectively decrease the amount of horsepower being output during those times when the demand on the engine is slight. Now this is great for a truck designed for heavy towing that is being driven to soccer practice but I just don't see the application in a boat. Where the power demanded is going to be a significant fraction of the possible maximum output of the engine anyway (say 80-85%) assuming the engines are properly sized to begin with.

I guess I could see some advantage in a large planing hull that is operating at displacement speeds for long periods of time, or commercial vessels that operate with significantly different loads depending on what they are doing (fishing boats going in and coming out for instance), but otherwise I doubt you would see nearly the fuel savings that a car would. Combine this with the added expense of the computer system to monitor this and it seems that there just isn't that much justification in boats as opposed to cars.

I may be wrong on this but I just don't see how it would radically change fuel efficiency numbers for most applications, but it would have to add to the expense and complexity.

[FAST FRED]

Now this is great for a truck designed for heavy towing that is being driven to soccer practice but I just don't see the application in a boat. Where the power demanded is going to be a significant fraction of the possible maximum output of the engine anyway (say 80-85%) assuming the engines are properly sized to begin with.

Besides the fishing , both commercial and sport with long term low power needs many pleasure boats have severe restrictions , inshore on wake production.

Even a displacement boat when stuck in canals with 10Klick speed restrictions will be underloaded , big time.

"assuming the engines are properly sized to begin with. "

Here is the biggest problem , many cruisers have the engine the advertising dept wants , not the boats designer.

Since they don't have to pay for the operation,maint ,or repair expenses , "bigger sells better".(faster , less time with borrowed credit from the banksters)

As Captain of a container ship or oil tanker , you don't see oversized engines .

FF

[apex1]

or commercial vessels that operate with significantly different loads depending on what they are doing (fishing boats going in and coming out for instance), but otherwise I doubt you would see nearly the fuel savings that a car would. .

You´re right! You see much more of a fuel saving in a boat than in a Truck, where you have a gear to shift!

On passages most boats run at about 30 to 50% rpm settings for fuel saving reasons. As long as they do´nt have a CPP installed (the best solution), a selective cyl. management would be quite helpful to keep the "iron sail" happy.
A smaller engine never is a solution (apart from US market where almost every second boat is overpowered), there are situations when you need the power installed. Thats valid for the recreational craft as for the fishing fleet. (though to a smaller bandwidth sometimes)

Regards
Richard