Extent of Patents

[CTMD]

I've been working on a "pop top" house boat for a client and just came across the Southbeach Vacationer (http://www.kencraftmarine.com/pdf/southbeach_vacationer.pdf) which claims to have a patent for its lifting roof. The two designs have independently arrived at very similar concepts. Does anyone know how I can confirm what is covered by their patent?

[PAR]

A patent is only as effective as the willingness of it's owner to defend it. You could research the patent number and find out how specific it is, but I've seen several similar contraptions on other boats and RV's so I'd think it would be easy enough to "work around". The Southbeach top looks like a fine place for mold and mildew when closed up after a day on the water. It's your countryman, so research should be easier.

[CTMD]

Found the documents, very vague. Can anyone come up with another existing boat with a similar concept?

[Jim_Hbar]

A quick look on the Oz intellectual property office turned up the following application. http://tinyurl.com/6nqvz2. Currently, it would appear that a patent has been applied for and published, but it is not known if a patent will issue from this application. Personally, I suspect that the claims as written will be modified before any patent would issue.

Unless you know and understand patent law in your country, it is not necessarily obvious what they are attempting to patent, or the form that the issued patent may take.

Some of the cheapest money you will spend, would be to speak with a patent lawyer before you do anything commercially.

Also, any knowledge I have is based on North American patent law, and may have no application in Aus.. And this advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

Hope that helps,

Jim.

Edit:

Chris - the best place to search is the US patent database - but it takes a bit of practice to get the hang of it http://patft.uspto.gov/ The neat thing about US patents, is that they note all of the reference patents, domestic and otherwise.. I would start by searching for the inventor listed on the Oz patent.

J

[CTMD]

Side line.

my client came to me to design a one off boat for private use with the "patented" components in the brief. By filling his brief am I infringing on the Patent or is he? US law is fine, just tying to work out where I'm at.

[Jim_Hbar]

As the design professional, I suspect your butt may be on the line, at least to a certain extent. Key point now is that the "patent" is only an application at this time - but in Canadian law, infringement exists from date of publication of the application.

Best thing would be to find the same design published elsewhere - doesn't need to be on a boat. And then show it to your lawyer, and get his opinion. Please note that in the US, the penalties can triple if you don't have a lawyers opinion supporting your alleged infringement..

My opinions are based on being on the "paying side" of the relationship.... 'nuff said.

[Landlubber]

CTMD,

My belief in Australia is that anything can be built for private use, but it cannot be commercially produced. Selling the end product is not a problem unless it became a business.
Absolutely nothing would ever be built if we all stopped to see if whet we are building has a patent somewhere or other, I understand your concern, but as the end result is a private job, there cannot be any problems.

I stopped writing this and did a search on patent rights in Australia......

" What is a Patent?

A patent is a right granted for any device, substance, method or process which is new, inventive and useful.

A patent is legally enforceable and gives the owner the exclusive right to commercially exploit the invention for the life of the patent. This is not automatic-you must apply for a patent to obtain exclusive rights to exploit your invention.. Kambrook learned this the hard way.

There are two types of patents in Australia;

a standard patent gives long-term protection and control over an invention for up to 20 years.
an innovation patent is a relatively fast, inexpensive protection option, lasting a maximum of 8 years. The innovation patent replaced the petty patent on 24 May 2001, please click here for more information.
Patents give effective protection if you have invented new technology that will lead to a product, composition or process with significant long-term commercial gain.
In return, patent applicants must share their know-how by providing a full description of how their invention works. This information becomes public and can provide the basis for further research by others.

You cannot patent artistic creations, mathematical models, plans, schemes or other purely mental processes.

Australian patents are administered by the Patent Office of IP Australia, a Federal Government organisation.

Check out some examples of patents that have been granted in Australia."


.....so there you have it from the horses mouth "COMMERCIAL"...not commercial, not covered by patent rights.....

[bhnautika]

Ctmd is the patent on the concept or the mechanism. There was a pop top camping boat on the market back in the late eighties (89) called the “Rae-Line CamperCraft” which had a pop up roof, it was a caravan/boat. This could be seen as prior art and freely available.

[CTMD]

The Patent (http://pericles.ipaustralia.gov.au/aub/pdf/nps/2007/0329/2007100094A4/2007100094.pdf)(or application for patent) appears to be for the whole "pop top" concept, so yes the camper craft would be a very helpful example of pre-existing art.

[waikikin]

Chris, great question, I think thats there's quite a few trailer sailers & small yachts that have had pop top arrangements, a few that spring to mind are the Swarbrick S80 & the "Thunderbird" & some "Sonata" TS's & maybe some "Trailer Tris" too that embody the "spirit & scope" of this new application for "those skilled in the art". All the best in your endeavours from Jeff.

[Guest625101138]

You have probably already stated enough here to be easy pickings for someone intent on making a point.

Just to be clear - someone came to you and asked - "can you design a copy of this for me?". Are you making commercial gain out of making the copy i.e being paid to design a copy?

If the original designers have deep pockets and care to make a point they could make life difficult for you. If they lurk this site then you made yourself a target. Taking out patents is expensive business but there is little point if you are not prepared to defend it.

On the other hand it is difficult to see what could be novel in a pop top but then if it did not have some special feature that makes it novel why were you asked to copy it!

The best response to the prospective client would be - No I cannot copy that design, I have a better one and it looks like this. (If you did not have it there and then you could say "and I will detail it for you tomorrow".)

Rick W.

[grob]

I would say that the best thing to do would be to contact Kencraft Marine if they own the patent and explain your situation. They are best placed to answer your questions.

If it is patented they may be willing to sell your client a licence, you don't know until you ask. Most designers are happy to talk about thier inventions especially patented ones, its the ones that aren't yet patented you have to be secretive about.

All the best

Gareth

[CTMD]

[QUOTE=Rick Willoughby;217650]Just to be clear - someone came to you and asked - "can you design a copy of this for me?". QUOTE]

No, a client came to me and said can you design me a trailable house boat with a "pop top" like a campervan. I generated a preliminary design and then bought a copy of the August Modern Boating which has a story on the Southbeach only to find the two boats are remarkable similar (although mine is bigger as it sleeps 6). I'm not actually looking for a loop hole just trying to figure out where I stand. This is a very small contract and may not be worth the hassle. It would however be a shame if it didn't go ahead as the boat has some great features. ie a large flat deck covered in solar panels and an electric drive.

Contacting Kencraft is already on todays list of jobs.

[raw]

I would contact them with regard to purchasing a set of the mechanisims to fit to your boat. They, may well do it, if they think your idea is not in competition to their own market space, in which case you would be in the clear to go ahead.

Everybody wins then.....and all is good in the world...

[tom kane]

The important area of a Patent is what is new about the invention. "What is claimed as new and novel in the patent application". The new and novel areas must be stated and these claims are the basis of a possible successful Patent claim.If you can not prove you have a new and novel idea you do not have an invention.It is ilegal to claim you have patients on an item unless you have been issued with a legal document confirming your successful application.Look at what the patentee is claiming as his new and novel ideas and see whether your idea is the same.If your idea does not infringe a present Patent you may have a new and novel idea which you may be able to patent.The claims,"What I claim is" are the important part of an invention.

[the1much]

does it count if your just making your own "version" as a 1 off,,,instead of trying to "market" your "own design" of it? ,,,,i would think its WAY different if you was trying to "sell" your top to people,,,,if its on a hand made custom boat, your not "selling" the top,,,your selling the boat,,,,,maybe,,,probably no,,,,,ya definitely,, hehe ;)
i would ask a lawyer if i can build a boat with a top like that,,,,,,not ask, can i sell this dude a top for his boat.

[Bullshipper]

I have "given" my drawings to clients, who went ahead and hired a fabricator to produce them for their own use.

I was paid as a consultant for a different concept.

You don't get the design credit, just the fees.

[CTMD]

General Update....

1. I've contacted Kencraft, explained the situation and I am waiting for a reply before I proceed.
2. Kencraft's patent is what we (Australia) call an "innovation patent". These are approved quickly and easily without a history check but can be rendered void just as easily by showing someone else had done it first, this will of course cost a bucket load in legal fees for everyone.
3. I've been advised by both a patent attorney and my lawyer that I can add a clause in my contract that the design infringes on a patent and that it is my client's responsibility to negotiate with the holder of said patent for terms under which they can proceed with construction.

I have no desire to go into battle as this is a very small contract and I've already wasted a lot of time on it. To be honest I'm tempted to walk away.

[tom kane]

The patent system is not intended to stop people from building anything (except wepons of mass destruction) for their own use and experimentation.It is intended to help inventors to get reward from their development work and get it on the market to the public.If you want to market a product you must check to see you are not infringing other peoples legaly aquired Patent or Design.