Ferretti reveals 'green' motor yacht

[diverdon]

Just read an interesting article:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5aaa408a-4e17-11dd-820e-000077b07658.html?nclick_check=1

Ferretti reveals 'green' motor yacht

By Peter Marsh in London

Published: July 10 2008 03:00 | Last updated: July 10 2008 03:00

Ferretti, the luxury Italian yachtmaker, has teamed up with the German automotive group ZF to develop a new form of "green" motor yacht that for substantial periods will operate entirely on its on-board batteries, even with the air conditioning full on.

The private company will announce the new yacht today. It says the vessel will be capable of saving large amounts of energy while also emitting less carbon dioxide - the main "greenhouse" gas linked to global warming.

Apart from these attributes, a large selling point for customers for the new yacht - most forms of which are likely to sell for about €3m ($4.7m) - is that while in electric mode it will be far less noisy than yachts that rely solely on diesel engines.

[mario_maggi]

There are some boats under construction that will operate for over 5 hours entirely in electric mode, using "green" salt-nickel batteries (Zebra). Motor power is about 100 kW (135 Hp), high-efficiency.
Regards
Mario

[apex1]

They do not come out with anything new, they only blow the horn a bit louder.
And here again:
For my fellow members interested in a deeper insight into marine propulsion efficiency I´ll provide a link. :

And do´nt forget to dl this (achieving the impossible), it may save you several thousands of $ or €...:
http://www.victronenergy.com/support-and-downloads/white-papers/

Regards
Richard

[marshmat]

Richard, would you mind fixing the link in the previous post? Somewhere in the copy-paste a "..." crept in and now it's just a 404.

As to the Ferretti boat- the Mochi Craft LR23, if I'm not mistaken, http://www.mochicraft.com/longrange23/default.aspx - there's plenty about it out on the 'net, but I don't see much to get excited about. The claim is for 10 kg CO2 per nautical mile, which works out to 4.3 litres of diesel per nautical mile. For a 23 m boat, 75 t empty / 87 t loaded, that's pretty decent- except that it's only an early marketing claim, at eight or nine knots, with the 550 or 800 hp MAN diesels coasting along at a fair bit less than their rated power. Somehow I doubt that's achievable in the real world. Personally, I think if you're going to build a luxo-yacht like this, I'd rather see the same living space and displacement in a longer, sleeker, more efficient hull shape, which could probably get by with less power. (Although the hull it does have is certainly a fascinating thing, weird enough that it might actually work ;) )But people who buy boats like this don't care about the fuel bills, right?

It looks like some slick marketing (and a terrible all-Flash website that brings back horrible memories of 2002), coupled with a computerized rework of a German submarine drivetrain from 1941. Elegant, luxurious, and will probably sell, but I don't think it has any hopes of actually living up to any sort of "eco-friendly" hype.

[apex1]

Matt
I fixed it, thank you!
http://www.victronenergy.com/support-and-downloads/white-papers/

Richard

[kistinie]

Matt
I fixed it, thank you!
http://www.victronenergy.com/support-and-downloads/white-papers/

Richard

Sorry to bother you but what is so extraordinary and new in this 4000€ online inverter/charger, compare to the others from Stirling or any basic manufacturer ?
an high end quality online inverter is 2000€
A high end charger 600 €

What is the gain ? 4000-2600 = 1400 gone for whom for what ?
The blue painting
The 10$ relays that disconnects heavy loads when AC shore power is lost ?
RS 485 port instead of asymmetric RS 232, this just for for 100" boats ?
I do not think we need that for our personal crafts
With 40% rebate to industry, ok the product is good

Aren't we a little taken for spring chicken ?



Forgetting about jokes...i do not understand what is so new, impossible, incredible and fantastic about this expensive device...

[marshmat]

Kistinie,

The Victron MultiPlus units are not just an inverter/charger. Think of them more as a combination synchronous inverter / load- and supply-adaptive charger / uninterruptable power supply.

If your onboard AC demands exceed the shore power supply, then normally you'd get either a brownout (pulling the voltage below nominal) or a tripped breaker. In this situation, the Victron unit would draw from your batteries to synchronously reinforce the AC supply to your boat. If your onboard loads drop, the thing would keep the load on the shorepower circuit the same, using the extra power to top off your batteries. If the shorepower fails, it switches over to batteries fast enough that your computers, etc. shouldn't notice.

So it's not anything new, no. Computer server colocation centres have been using very similar systems for as long as data centres have existed. But as far as I know, this is a very new thing for the boating industry.

It is a premium product, and has features and pricing set accordingly. It's not something you'd install in a tight-budget cruising boat with very low electrical demand. In a more luxurious craft with significant AC demand, it could be a very appealing product.

[apex1]

You are beginning to be a nuisance, hijacking every thread I used to post.
Forget about my existance and set me on your ignore list! Or go sailing, as you promised to do some days ago.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/propulsion/electric-motors-do-they-need-so-expensive-21879-3.html


Just some work in London and then in Southampton before going to "la cote d'Azur", not a long trip with a fast racing multihull.
Uncomfortable, yes, as we have nothing aboard even toilets, but efficiency is here with a 18m mast 2 tons/40 feet boat...
François
Yepp, thats it......:idea:

We understand........... "not a long trip" especially crossing the Bay of Biscay now, in winter, can make it a rather short trip, you´re so right Admiral Francois.:D


And to your post above:
the truth is in the last sentence [quote] i do not understand [quote]

Stop asking me unmature questions, I told you I´ll never reply to one of your questions again. You are unwilling to learn, my friend.
Dont waste our time here. Especially my time.
Go sailing, or back to your shebeen to improve your sort of knowledge.
Richard

[apex1]

Kistinie,

The Victron MultiPlus units are not just an inverter/charger. Think of them more as a combination synchronous inverter / load- and supply-adaptive charger / uninterruptable power supply.

It is a premium product, and has features and pricing set accordingly. It's not something you'd install in a tight-budget cruising boat with very low electrical demand. In a more luxurious craft with significant AC demand, it could be a very appealing product.

Matt
I thank you very much for brightening that. We install them since they are available and just to add that: they even start your genny if there´s a demand for.

But, believe me it´s senseless to tell him! He is unwilling to learn, he is already an expert!
I provided the same link to "Victronenergy" white paper, (together with another helpful article) in reply to one of his posts a week or so ago. He did´nt read it, or more likely, not understand.
Just unmature, asks questions and does´nt like answers.
Leave it, it´s not worth typing. And as you can see (read his statement in my post above about crossing the Biscay in winter), it seems he knows already more than we do.

Regards
Richard

[kistinie]

Kistinie,

The Victron MultiPlus units are not just an inverter/charger. Think of them more as a combination synchronous inverter / load- and supply-adaptive charger / uninterruptable power supply.

If your onboard AC demands exceed the shore power supply, then normally you'd get either a brownout (pulling the voltage below nominal) or a tripped breaker. In this situation, the Victron unit would draw from your batteries to synchronously reinforce the AC supply to your boat. If your onboard loads drop, the thing would keep the load on the shorepower circuit the same, using the extra power to top off your batteries. If the shorepower fails, it switches over to batteries fast enough that your computers, etc. shouldn't notice.

So it's not anything new, no. Computer server colocation centres have been using very similar systems for as long as data centres have existed. But as far as I know, this is a very new thing for the boating industry.

It is a premium product, and has features and pricing set accordingly. It's not something you'd install in a tight-budget cruising boat with very low electrical demand. In a more luxurious craft with significant AC demand, it could be a very appealing product.

I think the same. 100% agree with your analyse, i perfectly understood things like you did.

It is a good product with clever switching, nothing new and... no for us, the middle class sailors, because too expensive.
Now forgetting about price, remains the problem that it is a shame for marine industry to be proud to be 15 years late.

Wohhh ! Come and see my new 3kw oneline UPS for 4000€, i'm the king of technology !

Because so is the situation
Middle age products at astronomic prices


And for my friend Richard...
I really have fun when you speculate on my knowledge !
Being taken for an idiot is a real distraction in my day, you bring me fun an fresh air !. Thanks for these cool moment with you, taking me out of my work... in holidays of knowledge.

About sailing, winter sailing, this is not a crime in France, and weather gribs are not made for cats :-)
Do you sail only from 15 july to 15 august ?

I agree on the fact that i can be very cold and windy...But, what is the problem ? I have no time and schedule to respect, i respect, my boat, sea and weather
Sailing is not only drinking champagne in St Tropez.

Can be what we feel like doing...

And i bet that many of us would accept tough cold winter moments, to ride on the Jean Lecam's F40, am i wrong ?

[marshmat]

Have you seen what the corresponding non-ruggedized versions, used for computer clusters, cost?
I probably wouldn't install the Victron, myself- I don't see myself having the kind of electrical demand that would justify spending that much money. But for what it is, the price doesn't look unreasonable when compared against devices with similar capabilities.

But we're getting away from the thread topic here.

[apex1]

Forgetting about jokes...i do not understand what is so new, impossible, incredible and fantastic about this expensive device...

and, at the same day:

I think the same. 100% agree with your analyse
It is a good product with clever switching...



You are really absolutely unmature!

[kistinie]

"Reaching the impossible !!! "

Sounds fantastic !
For me it is something huge ! Monumental !



But for you a switching of existing solution is enough.
So you reach the impossible with a switch ?


You are too easily impressed Richard
Victron and quattro is a common product.
Victory song about reaching a nautical unreachable orgasm thanks to their quattro box is not a proof of their respect for us.

Do you get paid by Victron for advertising the product ?


And to stay in the suject
the marvel of marvel Victron Quattro, doesn't bring anything new to electric propulsion, just allow you to heat more electricity than you can get with the harbour plug.

Wohhhh ! Again
A product made to use more energy !
Really in the spirit of the century

A product made to consume more !
Richard i love you, don't change a thing you are perfect !

[apex1]

Do you get paid by Victron for advertising the product ?




Stop spoiling this Thread.

And be careful, you start to break a barrier, We are not used here with imputations to be paid by the industry!




.

I would be pleased, if now we would be able to come back to topic.

[kistinie]

Sorry to upset you

i keep smiling and stay fair when you tell me i am an ignorant, but i upset you with a simple question ?

If it is no, say no. If Yes say yes. This doesn't change my ideas and the respect i will have for you

Your are not paid by industry ?
I thought you said you were a industry boating pro for 45 years now.
So you are paid by wind or clouds ?
Nice, what a lucky man you are

In my case, i teach sailing and do other cool things.
When i get paid by industry i assume it 100% and say thanks.

[apex1]

Kistinie

Pretty fast, mate! you gained knowledge impressively, over just less than two years.

May I quote:

"In your opinion, what are the main situations i will have to be particuraly careful with my new boat ?

My experience is hobby 15,16, 18 formula with many many (and very often funny)capsize."


http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/bio-refit-crowther-twiggy-18936.html

And an able bluewater sailor today, ja? No reasonable fear to cross the Biscay in winter season.

I´ll tell you what: ask your questions, someone will answer, try to find out if the answer given, was of any value for you, if not ask again. But you´ll have almost no advantage to tell old salts, how deep the ocean!
And to break my own rule.............. I am by no means paid by any industry. I am building boats and fortunately must not make a living of it, although I could, bringing some 250 to 320 tonnes (accumulated) of boats through the door per annum. Look at my Gallery, some are shown there.
And even I am still learning here, almost every week. Try doing the same.
Arguing about pricing, instead of reading and understanding, one of the most senseful papers the industry provides on that subject, does´nt attract too many here, to give you serious assistance.
Thats
it

[kistinie]

I love the 18 formula, heavy but well balanced boat

To do a confession too
i'm also an engineer, i'm 43...today ! I spend a lot of time reading and asking. And i can learn 365 days a year if i fell like doing. I have this chance.

The bio refit is engaged as i am clearing of 90% of steal from the boat
a friend Herve Houplain , French designer, helps me for the ergonomy
i have found the reason of the softness i found in the arms and repaired some bad wood, modified a link too.
I use aramide glued and tight instead of any other system. I gain wood protection, weight and a lot of money
Glisten less with no steal and alum.
But to compensate will put a big Andersen winches !

So this is done, all together got 400 Kg of the boat (including engine, tanks, brass ...and of course bad wood full of water replaced by carbon epoxy)

I still have to reshap stern as volume is not enough, boat in unbalanced

Wingover is undersailed with only 40m² main and 22 jib
31 feet beam, so difficult to capsize
Toshiba (Provu) the F40 is far more dangerous

i sail wingover alone
i have not the level (or the balls) to do the same with this F40, so we will be 3 for the trip

When the pope say something i find stupid, i do not care that he is a master, a stupid idea remains stupid even in the mouth of a king.

I find the paper on hybrid, partial and oriented, not objective at all.
This paper forgets all the important questions, remains out of the question of what is a sailing boat and how do we use it
This paper smell bad, smells the oil and industry lobby, smell the corrupted oil as said someone here.
i know what i am talking about because i have been a corrupter myself for different much bigger industry than boat

A sailing boat can sail 90% of the time with sails and batteries
An anvil will never sail hybrid, i agree

About electricity the lightness of wingover will make my goal much easier to reach than on any other heavier one.
I clearly do not see anything wrong in my conception.
If there is a mistake, i need to know witch one precisely
I'm waiting for critics with arguments behind.

Cheers !