Narrowboat Engine

[timswait]

I'm considering engines for a narrowboat. It's a bit different to most of the projects discussed on here as it only needs 30-40hp to chug along. I'm after something smooth, quiet and most of all really efficient. The boat will be a liveaboard, I don't want to fit a separate generator so will use the engine for power, hence the need for smooth and efficient at low throttle openings. Will probably use 24v electrics for the boat. I'm thinking of using a fairly modern common rail direct injection diesel from a car. I'd get something like this skoda (http://www.douglasvalley.co.uk/item.asp?prodid=983&spg=39&pgid=1) or this Pug. (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2000-PEUGEOT-206-LX-HDI-CAT-D-LIGHT-DAMAGED-REPAIRABLE_W0QQitemZ300238787373QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item300238787373&_trkparms=72%3A12|39%3A1|65%3A12&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14.l1308). Take the engine out with loom, ECU and ignition switch and put into the boat. I'd run the engine on it's own 12V electrical system with all the ancillaries from the car and then fit a 24V alternator (maybe somewhere around where the power steering or aircon pump would go?) to run the boat's electrics.
Narrowboats tend to use a skin cooling tank, so could I just connect this up in place of the car's rad?
Water cooled exhausts sound a bit complicated is it necessary? Can't I just use the car's silencer cans and wrap the manifold with exhaust wrap? The other idea I had was to make a jacket to go around the manifold and blow air through it which could be routed into the cabin to provide extra heating and make use of the waste heat while cooling the exhaust (a bit like a VW beetle!).
Any comments or other ideas? My main problem I can see is mating the engine to a suitable gearbox.

[FAST FRED]

With the slender hull and low speed requirements 30 hp should be way overkill.

What are the vessels dimensions , and esp what does it displace?

My guess would be the 30hp engines are run at very low speeds .

The only way a diesel is "efficient" is when its loaded , so you may prefer 10hp to 30, for the same speeds.

FF

[timswait]

It's 60ft long and 7ft beam. Assuming a 2ft draught that gives its displacement as around 24 tonnes (18.3x2.1x0.6). Canal boat people seem to think about 30hp is enough for chugging at 4mph, but if on tidal waters it's better to have 50hp. We would need to use the River Trent which is tidal and apparently has strong currents, so will probably need about 50hp. 50hp is about the power of a small city car, where could I get a 30hp engine even if it was sufficient?

[murdomack]

You would be unlikely to find a small diesel in a car, although there are 1.5 litre ones in the likes of the Peugeot 106. These give ~56 bhp at 5000 rpm, which sounds a bit fast for a boat engine, so if you kept it down to ~ 3000 rpm it might suit you.
Most boat engines that you buy from marine engine companies are based on industrial units and will be stronger, and designed to give their best power at lower speeds.
If you are trying to save money, or if it's just a challenging project, good luck.
You should really be asking people with narrow boat knowledge and I have not seen a lot of discussion on here about these. Try some English sites, google "narrow boat engine", or whatever, and work through them. Here is one I opened,

http://www.canaljunction.com/boat/problems.htm

I would not use a vehicle exhaust pipe as they tend to be pretty thin, you don't want exhaust fumes in your boat, very dangerous.

[CDK]

To obtain a CRDi engine you'd have to buy a crash vehicle, remove the parts you need and sell the rest. The scrapyard guy takes just the engine and the gearbox, rendering the engine useless for a marine conversion. You need the wiring harness and the ECU.
Without a water jacketed exhaust the installation is very difficult. You don't want vibrations and noise, so the engine mounts and exhaust parts must be quite flexible. With a steel pipe and heavy insulation you cannot achieve that goal. Look at Lancing Marine to see which manifolds are available, then find the engine for it.
You can install 2 alternators and use 12V batteries, the 2nd alternator must be isolated from ground and wired in series with the 1th. Then you have 12V for the engine and 24 for the boat.

[FAST FRED]

The US source low cost source for used diesel engines ( 30 + HP) is at the shops that install and fit reefer units to large trailers.

$ 300 to $500 will usually get a running engine.

These are usually Kubota or Yanmar fitted with oversized lube oil sumps.
Larger engines may be Perkins.

They have a std bell housing size so a cheap Hurth or used marine transmission can be fitted.

These engines will have high time , but in the best conditions , fired off , run constantly at a good load , and maintained VERY well.

Good hunting .

A place that works on small diesel tractors might be a priceier source.

An auto or light truck takeout may have a harder time hooking to a marine tranny.

FF

[CDK]

" The US source low cost source for used diesel engines ( 30 + HP) is at the shops that install and fit reefer units to large trailers.

$ 300 to $500 will usually get a running engine.

These are usually Kubota or Yanmar fitted with oversized lube oil sumps.
Larger engines may be Perkins."

That sounds like paradise to me, and probably to timswait also.
But he is located in Europe....

I paid almost $ 4000 for 2 very tired VW turbo diesels, one very unwilling to start because the previous owner used it without a fuel filter for who knows how long. Only when the fuel injection pump was totally clogged up and all 4 glow plugs burnt out he decided to abandon the 6 years old van. The other one came from a large organization and was properly serviced.

[AuxiliaryComms]

You might try reposting your question at CanalWorld.net or just browsing through the site. I know they've had a lot of talks about htier engine preferences.

[FAST FRED]

That sounds like paradise to me, and probably to timswait also.
But he is located in Europe....

I dont know Europe but would be really suprided to hear they do nor use refrigerated trucks to move fresh produce.

Do not phone , GO TO THE SHOP, with cash, they will be happy to dicker for what is essentially scrap to them.

HEAR it run, before reaching for those Euros.

FF

[timswait]

Hi, I've got hold of the 'donor' vehicle that I'm fitting the engine from, a VW Polo 1.9 SDi. Not common rail, but fully electronic direct injection. Rated at 63hp, so a little over-powered, but then that's 63hp at something like 4000rpm, in the boat I'll probably never be revving it over 2000 (aim to chug along at 1500rpm mostly), so I reckon the power should be about right.
My main question now is what to do with the exhaust. I'm using a keel cooling tank for the cooling water, and I want to keep it as simple as possible, so don't really want a wet exhaust. The simplest (and cheapest) way is to use the car's manifold, and then connect a suitable silencer and lag the whole thing. But every narrowboat engine I've seen runs the exhaust mainifold through a water header tank (something like in the picture). I guess this cools the exhaust somewhat, but how necessary is it and does it have any other purpose? My engine is beneath deck, so i'm a little worried about 'under bonnet' temperatures. My other idea was to air jacket around the manifold, similar to an old VW Beetle, and have a blower to blow air through, in the winter I could blow it into the cabin and get extra heating. Obviously I'd still insulate around the outside of the air jacket, but an air jacket would be easier for me to fabricate than one of the header tank type water jackets.
The other thing is that in the photo of the Isuzu I've attached there's what appears a braided pipe in the exhaust. Is this a high temp flexible section to cut vibration? If so where can I get one?
Cheers.
Edited to point out that the white car is what I've got, not the shiny blue engine! That's just what I'm aiming for! ;-)

[murdomack]

Hi

The water header tank that I think you are talking about is probably the exhaust manifold which has the engine cooling water filler cap on it. Here is a Westerbeke one,

http://www.marinedieseldirect.com/catalogs/catalog_group.php?owner=mdd&page_ident=47631-38&model=44A%2044B%2012.5%20BTDB-60%209.4%20BTDB-50%2015.0%20BTDC-60%2012.0%20BTDC-50&manufacturer=Westerbeke&title=EXHAUST%20MANIFOLD%20&%20HEAT%20EXCHANGER%20-%2044A/B&quant_position=&catalog=47631&printparts=47631&printservice=45100&printoperators=&comment1=

there are companies that make these in the UK like Bowman, but I don't see a VW one in their range. I'm sure someone makes them though

http://www.ejbowman.co.uk/products/MarineHeatExchangers.htm

Here is a website showing a dry exhaust for a fishing boat, might give you some ideas. If you have fabrication ability, make your own flanged pipes and silencer as normal car exhaust is very weak for using in enclosed spaces, remember that a leaking exhaust can kill you without you being aware that it is happening.

ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/field/006/ad533e/ad533e02.pdf

[timswait]

The water header tank that I think you are talking about is probably the exhaust manifold which has the engine cooling water filler cap on it. Here is a Westerbeke one,

Yes, that is what I'm talking about, what does it actually do and is it really needed, can I not just fit the cast iron one from the car?
Bowman do a VW one for the 1.5 TD, and I know from this forum it also fits the 1.9 TDi, it looks like it might fit mine, although I really need to get the engine out the car so I can measure it properly to find out.

[murdomack]

Hi Again,

Go back to post #5 where CDK explains a good part of the reason. There is also the heat, but you have ideas for working around that. If you want the exhaust to be totally dry you will need to fit a metalic bellows piece to cope with the vibration. I don't know how much they cost, but it's probably less than going with heat exchangers. These ones are good for 450 deg C.

http://www.vibracoustics.com/cms/uploads/75-A-01_02%2005J.pdf

[CDK]

The Bowman VW150-3490 exhaust manifold with integrated heat exchanger and header tank will almost certainly fit. Designed for the 1.5 VW diesel, I used it for 1.9 TD engines without any modifications. It is a light alloy casting with rubber grommets on the cooling fluid side and a 4 hole flange for the exhaust.
It absorbs so much heat from the exhaust gases that you can use an insulated dry exhaust pipe and silencer if you absolutely want to. At 2000 rpm I estimate the exhaust temperature to be around 200 degrees C. The penalty for that, as I pointed out earlier, is a lot more decibels because you cannot use rubber hoses.

[murdomack]

It's here at £422

http://www.lancingmarine.com/2008prices%20RCYC14-15.pdf

[murdomack]

Braided Expansion Joints and Insulation covers Pages 21 and 22

http://www.minikin.dial.pipex.com/minikin%20product%20catalogue%2010th%20edition.pdf

[timswait]

So if I use the car's exhaust manifold and air cool it then I can soft mount the engine and use the stainless bellows to take up the vibration? If I use the water jacketed exhaust mani then I still can't use rubber hose, so I still have to use the stainless steel bellows? So what's the advantage in the water jacketed mani?
What parts would I need to run a wet exhaust? I think I'd still use the keel tank for cooling the engine. Can I use the Bowman water jacketed mani to inject the water? I have drawings for it from Lancing and it shows a sea water inlet, so is this where water is injected if it's being used as a wet sytem? What other parts do I need, just a pump to pick up raw water and a pipe to connect it to the Bowman? Is the pump engine driven or electric? Do I still need a silencer (muffler for the Americans ;) ) if I have a wet exhaust?
Thank you for your helpful answers so far.

[murdomack]

There are good articles attached by Pericles, Post #3 on an adjacent thread, that you can study and make your own decisions. The second link is the one about the dry exhaust and it makes a comparison with a wet system.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/diy-marinizing/rebuilding-marinizing-tractor-trailer-22184.html

Here is a site selling flex hose for dry exhaust

http://www.chandleryworld.co.uk/acatalog/DryFlexibleHose.html

Here is another thread on the benefit of the water cooled manifold in a dry exhaust. In one of the later posts Fast Fred is saying that a bigger keel cooler will keep this manifold cooled.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/diy-marinizing/why-install-wet-manifold-6701.html

[murdomack]

The Bowman VW150-3490 exhaust manifold with integrated heat exchanger and header tank will almost certainly fit. Designed for the 1.5 VW diesel, I used it for 1.9 TD engines without any modifications. It is a light alloy casting with rubber grommets on the cooling fluid side and a 4 hole flange for the exhaust.
It absorbs so much heat from the exhaust gases that you can use an insulated dry exhaust pipe and silencer if you absolutely want to. At 2000 rpm I estimate the exhaust temperature to be around 200 degrees C. The penalty for that, as I pointed out earlier, is a lot more decibels because you cannot use rubber hoses.

Looking again at the Bowman site, page 26/26 of the pdf, this unit is available without the heat exchanger tube bundle for keel cooling systems. It is called VW150-3490KC. Might be cheaper?

[CDK]

Without the tube bundle it will be much cheaper, that's an expensive part. With keel cooling you can include the water jacket in the cooling circuit's return and you do not need a separate pump.
You can save some more money by ordering the part from mesamarine.com. You pay them, then Bowman sends the part directly to you. I saved over 30% that way (no VAT and the US price is lower than in the UK).

With the water cooled manifold you avoid the problem of an 600 degrees C. piece of iron in your engine bay, that would require you to move the air around the engine as if it were in a car. 50 mph wind takes a very large fan!
The exhaust pipe you can insulate, but the manifold will crack if you do that.

Of course you want to use a silencer. I tested the engines without one, with just a piece of pipe: the sound resembles a Sherman tank. In a wet system the injected water and the rubber hoses absorb most of the exhaust noise, the last bit is removed by a small steel or plastic jar in the lowest part of the path. The VW Golf has 2 silencers that do a very good job. If you have the space for them I recommend you use these.

[timswait]

The project's progressing fairly well. The engine's out the car and separated from the gearbox. Unfortunately I don't have any good photos, but here's one of the engine.
I've got hold of a Hurth ZF15M gearbox to use with it. I've used the bell-housing from the car gearbox and have machined an adaptor plate to go between the bell-housing and the gearbox, so that all now bolts together and the gearbox input shaft is perfectly centred on the crankshaft of the engine.
The problem now is how to connect the gearbox shaft to the flywheel. I was hoping to find somewhere I could buy a tube with the correct spline to match the gearbox and then to machine the other end to something I could bolt to the flywheel. How do people normally connect the shaft from a marine gearbox to the crankshaft of the engine? I do want to keep the original flywheel so I can use the starter motor as it is.

[CDK]

You need something called a damper plate. It is basically a clutch plate without the friction material and if you are lucky you can buy one with a hole pattern that fits the flywheel. For my VW diesel conversion a bought plates with just the proper diameter but the wrong number of holes so I drilled new ones in the flywheel.
Lancing Marine has them in stock, so do other Hurth retailers.

[timswait]

Why is it that car engines are always mounted on 3 points and boat engines on 4? As I see it the loads the engine mounts have to support are the same or lower in a boat than a car. There's the torque loads from the engine (same in car or boat, maybe slightly lower in the boat as there's no sudden jerk as you take up the clutch), the static weight of the engine (same in car or boat) and any dynamic loads from cornering, going over bumps, rolling around at sea (likely to be much lower in the boat). So what is it about putting it in a boat that requires the extra mount?
There's nothing on the front left corner of my engine substantial enough to bolt a mount to. The water pump, alternators and injection pump are all bolted to the block here and I can't really see any way to make a mount work. So I'm planning on mounting it how it would have been in the car, with one mount on the front right of the block, one on the rear left and one on the rear right of the gearbox. Is there any reason this won't work?
I've attached a photo of the engine bolted up to the gearbox (I haven't got a damper plate yet so the shafts aren't connected yet). The plate on the back of the box is what I'll make the gearbox mount out of. The other photo shows the progress of the boat it's going into.

[CDK]

All the Mercruisers, Volvo's, OMC's and Yamaha stern drives with inline engines have 3-point support, two on the transom plate and a central one at the front of the engine. So a substantial part of all marine engines are mounted like car engines. Very awkward because there is no easy way to changing a belt, but aligning the engine is simpler than with 4 legs.

But you're right, engines with gearbox and prop shaft stand on 4 legs.
In my post: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/diy-marinizing/marinizing-vw-turbodiesel-engines-19118.html there are some photographs of the supports I made. There usually are several unused holes in the engine block; if not, you can use the holes where the alternator or water pump brackets are attached by taking a somewhat longer bolt.

[timswait]

I have been giving your posts on the TDi's a good read. The area around the water pump looks quite different on my engine, The holes you've used seem to have things covering them. Are the TDi's mounted vertically or canted at 15 degrees? The SDi is intended to be over at 15 degrees, and I'm planning on putting it in the boat like that. Annoyingly I didn't think of that when machining the gearbox adaptor plate, so the gearbox is now also going to be at 15 degrees. Still it says in the spec that it can be used up to 30 degrees, and the boat's no really going to be rolling around much so it should be OK.

[CDK]

Straight up or slanted, I do not see any problems. Mine are standing vertical because the expansion tank on top of the manifold is so high that the filler cap almost touches the floor board. At 15 degrees slant I would need a hole in the floor or raise it an inch.

The oil pump is located between cyl. 3 and 4, but there is a suction tube pointed towards the front of the engine. Since the angle of the prop shaft and engine is 8 degrees down, I must overfill the engines a bit to make sure that the pump always sucks oil. Should it ever be necessary in future to lift the engines, I will remove the oil pans and cut off the tubes.

[Chris Bretter]

The thai boats are the way to go there are some pictures on this site

[timswait]

What do I do with the EGR system? Can I just take the valve off the inlet mani and blank the hole off? There's nothing on the Bowman exhaust mani to connect it to.

[CDK]

The EGR system is a passenger car requirement with slightly negative effects on the engine performance. One of my engines already came with a steel plate under the valve, so the EGR was only optically there to satisfy an inspection.
You can discard the valve, the hose, the wiring and the controller (if one was there).

[timswait]

My engine has a vacuum operated throttle butterfly on the intake plenum. As I understand it diesel engines don't ususally have any throttling on the air entering the engine, so I'm guessing this is also something to do with the EGR system. Should I just lock this butterfly fully open?

[CDK]

That must indeed have a function only with EGR or to create vacuum to aid the oil pan ventilation. Diesels run normally without any intake restrictions and even better with a turbo charger. Make sure you lock it wide open or remove it completely.

[timswait]

Well, it's on the water, and alls good. Not used it for that long yet, just moved her about 20 miles from where we craned her in to her mooring. However, all seems to work well. The engine's pretty smooth and quiet (even though I haven't fitted the soundproofing in the engine bay yet) and easily powerful enough. The only teething problem is that the 4 ribbed belt started to tear along the edge, so I cut the torn edge off and used it with three ribs. Not quite sure why, probably I've misaligned the second alternator slightly, so I've have to fiddle with some spacers on that.
Had big problems trying to get it to run when it first went in the boat and thought the ECU was dead at one point. However it just turned out to be a relay I'd lost between it's removal from the car and installation in the boat, and once I'd realised that then it fired up first time on the key!

[peter radclyffe]

Why is it that car engines are always mounted on 3 points and boat engines on 4? As I see it the loads the engine mounts have to support are the same or lower in a boat than a car. There's the torque loads from the engine (same in car or boat, maybe slightly lower in the boat as there's no sudden jerk as you take up the clutch), the static weight of the engine (same in car or boat) and any dynamic loads from cornering, going over bumps, rolling around at sea (likely to be much lower in the boat). So what is it about putting it in a boat that requires the extra mount?
There's nothing on the front left corner of my engine substantial enough to bolt a mount to. The water pump, alternators and injection pump are all bolted to the block here and I can't really see any way to make a mount work. So I'm planning on mounting it how it would have been in the car, with one mount on the front right of the block, one on the rear left and one on the rear right of the gearbox. Is there any reason this won't work?
I've attached a photo of the engine bolted up to the gearbox (I haven't got a damper plate yet so the shafts aren't connected yet). The plate on the back of the box is what I'll make the gearbox mount out of. The other photo shows the progress of the boat it's going into.
thrust bearing

[timswait]

There is no thrust loading from the prop. That's transmitted directly into the hull by the python drive. I take it that's what you meant?

[CDK]

Congratulations Timswait, it looks like you did a splendid job.

[murdomack]

Well done, it's a credit to all your hard work.

I hope you're not taking that steel cargo, in the picture, onboard. :D

[timswait]

Thanks for your kind replies. So far so good (touch wood). Still not done so many miles, but clocked up quite a few hours charging batteries. The only problem is that there's slightly more vibration than I think there should be (mostly around 1200-1800 rpm). I didn't have the flywheel re-balanced after fitting the drive plate. I drilled it as accurately as I could using a milling machine, but I may pop it out and take it somewhere to get it balanced.