Yacht Design and Engineering

[edneu]

I wanted to see what people thoughts were concerning the roles of designers versus engineers in pleasure craft design. I know there is a push to credential naval architects and yacht designers, with an emphasis on engineering credentials.

It seems to me that there are two, albeit overlapping roles. The engineers knowledge of the strength of materials and structures, effects of shapes and quantitative analysis of form is critical to a boats development. This is especially apparent on the edge of lightweight composite structures, such as America’s cup yachts, or around the world yachts, or offshore racing powerboats.

Yacht design is a type of industrial design, combining aesthetic, ergonomic, and engineering considerations. While yacht design and marine engineering overlap to a great extent there is a difference in emphasis.

In the more mundane world of production pleasure boats, the structures are far from the outer limits of strength/weight ratios, well within the limits of scantling rules of thumb. Consumer choice is often driven by aesthetics rather than performance. While some engineers can be great aesthetic designers, and some designers may know a lot about engineering, it seems that there are two interdependent roles.

In the automotive industry, both disciplines are employed. A production car shape is not purely developed to minimize wind resistance; there is also a style element. Most racecars in a class appear to be similar, look at a Formula 1 or NASCAR. The production models from these manufacturers are very stylistically different to appeal to consumers. In addition to differences in appearance, production cars are designed with consideration to ergonomics, comfort and ease of maintenance.

If this thread starts to go the way of the ‘Apache is Back’ thread, forget I mentioned it.

[gonzo]

As you mention Formula 1 and NASCAR, it reminded me of boats built under a formula. They too become similar. As time goes by, the changes that give any improvement are minimal. However, aesthetics can change a lot. Styling, particularly above the waterline, are more whimsical. Also, because marinas charge by the foot, we see a trend towards boxy boats.

[Tad]

ed;

The yacht designer decides what and how the boat is to be, the engineer helps make it hang together and work.

Design is the role of weighing alternatives and making decisions. The "vision thing" in some folks terms. Engineering is dealing with these design decisions in a material fashion.

The designer must be responsible for keeping the design together, a unified whole. Very few people understand this work or want to pay for it. But, almost everyone, even Joe Pedestrian, will recognize the result as superior. I would point to the work of L. Francis, Dick Newick, German Frers, and Aage Nielsen.

Unfortunately there are (IMO) very few, "real" yacht designers around. So the production boat industry decided they could use industrial designers instead of yacht designers. (Yacht designers are too expensive) They supplement their industrial designers lack of knowledge with naval architects and engineers. What is the result? Not too inspiring. A collection of parts that imitates the other guys collection, great work, much energy, but it's out of date next year when the colors change.

Look in the "engineering" office of any major yacht builder in the world. Everyone there has some form of training, the Landing School, perhaps an NA from Michigan or Webb, and some engineering degrees from various schools. But no "real" yacht designer, (again that term, sorry). The company either uses an in house industrial designer who works with the marketing people to establish the "vision". Or, they go outside to an independent designer, and this is becoming rare, especially in North America.

Probably every independent yacht design office employs or sub-contracts the services of an engineer. Finding an engineer you can work with and trust is not easy, but it is vital in this world.

My best to all, Tad

[Tad]

Just a note to clarify the above, sorry it it's off topic;

When I refer to "real" designers, I mean people who are not just doing a job. These are people for whom designing yachts is not just an artistic expression, but an intellectual one as well. Their are certain designers whose body of work is all of a piece, it makes a statement about the world, or people, or society, or how we can deal with it all.

Think about the work of Phil Bolger, or Jim Brown, or Dick Newick, or Tom Colvin, or, (lordelpus) George Buehler. These people are putting forward much more than another decent boat, love it or hate it.

To all aspiring designers, go to some place like the Emily Carr Collage of Art and find a voice. Live your life and find something that needs to be said. Then design boats.


Tad

[Timm]

I agree with a lot of what Tad said, although I am wondering where all those "expensive" yacht designers are working! After 12+ years in the world of production boatbuilding, for large companies and small, I have yet to see anything approaching high salaries for those of us designing the boats!

I think much of this discussion has to be tied to the size and type of boat being designed. While I have no problem "engineering" the structures on normal, mid-size pleasure boats, I would not even try to engineer a mega-yacht or a large commercial vessel. I wasn't really trained to do that at the Landing School.

I think there is a role for both in the industry. The reason so many boat companies now use industrial designers is because salesman can't read blueprints! Who runs most boat companies? Salesman! To them, our drawings are just a bunch of lines going everywhere, they can't visualize the boat in 3 dimensions. But, an industrial designer shows them a pretty picture, with color and little people standing on the aft deck, and they can understand it better. I can't tell you how many times I have seen the V.P.'s eyes glass over when looking at an engineering drawing and trying to discuss a problem.

Yacht Designers need to know their limitations, and not be afraid to call in someone with different skills or education when needed. I will gladly admit that I am not an electrical engineer!

[gonzo]

Well Timm, maybe you need to start wearing Dockers and Sperry boat shoes like the designers do :p . I agree it is difficult to sell good handling characteristics against a floating flop house.

[Timm]

Gonzo, I design boats for a living. Dockers and Sperry boat shoes are waaaaay out of my price range! :)

[MarkC]

Tad, is George Beuhler not to your liking? (lordelpus)- why say that? Ok, his web site is a pit partisan, discussion go off-topic a bit. Designs are trad/simple for DIY. But as a practicing/earning designer for what...25years? he deserves respect - has his place, could even offer good advice! ?????

[Guest]

Naval architects are already rerquired to have credentials to perform engineering analyses required by law, under long-existing engineering registration.

This is not the same as credentialling design, and in fact design is by definition not engineering.

However, yachts don't have any legal requirements for complex engineering calcs.

[Tad]

Timm;

With the "too expensive" comment I was expressing frustration over the boat manufacturing companies who claim to be unable to afford the 1-2% royalty that independent designers need to stay in business. With few or no production projects, the cost of running a design office rests with custom design. And the cost of custom design goes up. This means more entry level "designer" positions with boat builders, but these positions are rarely working under an experienced mentor, a "real designer" if you will. So, (IMO) the industry reaps what has been sown. In my opinion yacht design is an art, the practice of yacht design should be protected and subsidized by some means, otherwise it will disappear. To be replaced by free plans offered by armatures on the internet.

Mark;

I thought I was being respectful of Mr. Buehler's work in my statement, but I did qualify it with a, "love it or hate it". I question some of Buehler's work on a technical basis. I also feel that perhaps he has to ignore conventional naval architecture and yacht design to continue to put forward his "vision". In my opinion this is not in the best interests of the client.

All the best, Tad

[gonzo]

A design by Herreshoff, for example, has every detail to build a yacht. It includes fasteners, lumber list, rigging and even the hardware. Many amateur desingers are not capable of that level of design. In another thread in this forum, there is a discussion about hydraulic transmissions. Apparently George Beuhler advocates the home building of hydraulics. He claims it is easy. I know that with the pressures involved it can be deadly. This kind of claim is common with amateurs, and they are not followed by a design or specifications. I think amateur design is great because it is less restricted by economics. However, I also think that designers, amateur and professional alike, should restrict their claims to their field of expertise.

[SailDesign]

Quote: "armatures on the internet."

Dontcha just love spell chequers.....

[Guest]

Was at an NSRP meeting recently.

Apparently Kawasaki Heavy Industries is designing a complete new tanker in eight days by using an integrated design suite, though they didn't say how many people were involved. (This level of design is CNC code for steel and all, not just a few drawings.)

Most of the same efficiency of software is available for yachts. I wonder if that sort of productivity increase would do anything for custom design of yachts?

[ErikG]

I think that the time to create a design is more of thinking rather than waiting for the computer. Sure you could "massproduce" designs by altering a few things here and there, but would they look an sail well?

ErikG

[duluthboats]

Much like the tin man, would they have a heart? For a tanker it may not matter, but is a yacht, a yacht, without a heart. :)

Gary :D

[Timm]

Tad, I hope you didn't think I was being critical, as I wasn't. That was one of my feable attempts at humor. To the people who run most boat companies, not to mention many custom design clients, the idea of spending thousands of dollars on a design is unimaginable. Design, whether done by an engineer or a designer, takes time. Time is money and boat designers have bills to pay like everyone else.

I am always amazed that a boat company will spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to tool up a new model, then worry over a couple of thousand to the designer. Did I mention that the profit on one boat would pay for the entire design in some cases?

As for royalties, my experience with production boatbuilders is that you will never get them to pay them anyway, so don't bother asking. They will build the boat for 6 months and then change a few things in the mold and claim it isn't your design any longer. I know of one boat company that modified all their designs, closed down, and laid off all the employees. Over a weekend, the old molds were put out to pasture and the new ones moved into place. The following week the company was back in business, with a new name and no longer obligated to pay royalties. They even hired back the same employees!

I too see Yacht Design as an art. The computers are tools to help get the job done. I still find myself drawing hulls and styling by hand. As the former chief draftsman at Bertram Yachts told me when I was new to the business, computers are lousy for sketching. I guess a tanker shape can be drawn pretty easily as they are basically a shoebox with a blunt nose and round bilges. I know, that is probably a simplification, but they do appear rather straightforward to those of us unqualified to design one!

I seemed to have veered way off topic, so I'll stop now!:D

[brian eiland]

Dear Tad and Timm,
I agree with you both. There is an 'art' to designing 'boats' verses ships. I have seen some of Tad's work and I consider it masterful. And I believe he worked with Bruce King for some period of time, another rather masterful designer. I don't think I know of your work Timm.

There was a full couple of pages devoted to the similiar subject in a book I looked back thru a month or so ago (can't recall which one right now as I had looked thru 5 at the same time). It spoke of the effort to draw just the bow line (and sheer). The author spoke of spending anywhere from a day to a full week at getting these two VERY important lines right. Computers just can't draw these lines. Olin Stephens could and did. Now that I think of it I may have been reading a review of his new book "Lines" that I have not had a chance to look at yet.

I was in the retail/wholesale boat business for 18 years (72'-90') and I experienced the fiberglass revolution. As years went by I grew to describe the looks of sailboats as just so many floating clorax bottles.
_____________________________________________
Recently I read an article in Soundings that promted me write the following:

Subject: Soundings Article by Ted Danforth, Jr.

Dear Ted,

Just finished reading your article about Ray Hunt in the June issue of Soundings, I wanted to write and let you know how much I truly enjoyed the article.

You captured not only the factual history, but more importantly, some of the essence of being involved with yachts and yacht design itself... "the measure of total understanding of the nature of a boat."

And most importantly, you included the oft forgotten element, the sheer line. What a terribly important factor! Romantically stated, but oh so true, "it is simply her sheer … sheer beauty that is. She enters the harbor like a beautiful woman entering a room. Her sheer is the line we try to get right when we doodle boats." . So many of today's boats lack this beauty, and correspondingly, some of the essence of yesteryear's yachting.

Your article brought some of that feeling back to me....some of that feeling that first inspired me to want to learn of sailing yachts and their design....that had me (virtually a non-sailor at the time) putting together a scrapbook of designs, both good and poor, for future reference.

Now it so happens that I got quite heavily involved with multihull craft because here is where free thought and innovation abounded, and here it is even tougher to create a pretty sheer line. Probably a couple of the best examples I might reference would be Peter Wormwood's 60 'Indigo' design (http://runningtideyachts.com/design-references/design-references-1.html) and a few of Peter Spronk's cats. With Spronk's designs, you would have to invoke your French observation, "you must suffer to be beautiful." I'm going to try and create a few nice looking multi-hull designs myself, and maybe in collaboration with a more artistic person than myself. My first attempt is this 65' gamefishing design sporting a rather unusual sailing rig. While the rig shape may appear strange to some, I think I got the sheer and the deckhouse lines right....
___________________________________________
Tad,
I found you comment interesting, "To all aspiring designers, go to some place like the Emily Carr Collage of Art and find a voice. Live your life and find something that needs to be said. Then design boats."
And I would add, don't expect to make a lot of money at this profession, and consider concentrating on SuperYachts rather than small production vessels.
Finally a sabbatical in Italy might not be a bad idea. When I was looking for an aero kit for my oldler Mercedes SLC I came to the conclusions that the Germans should do the building, but leave the designing to the Italians.

[Guest]

Great discussion.

"Running Tide" Now, there was a boat!

I've been asked to look at a production FG version of one of my boats. I'm getting wary since I spend most of the time in our discussions debunking ill conceived or incompatible concepts. Probably I should can it and rest easier.

Tad, I saw a Memory this summer on the waterway and it looked just fine.

Tom Lathrop

[Tad]

Timm;

NP, no I didn't think you were being critical, I was just struggling to clarify my thoughts. And that was a great rant you had going there, keep it up.

Brian & Guest;

Automated yacht design: I don't think so, AI has a long way to go before this will be workable. A commercial ship has extremely rigorous design criteria to meet. Get this many DWT from here to there as cheap as possible, meet Lloyd's scantling rule, be simple to build, etc. Fall apart in ten years.

But a small yacht for weekend cruising with your family? A program can draw 1000 different sheerlines, but it can't tell which one is "right".

Tom;

Thanks for your comment, and the best of luck with your project.

The mention of Runningtide got me thinking about Olin Stephens and a comment he made a few years ago. To paraphrase from memory, " When I started out in yacht design, it was 90% art and 10% science, now it seems to be the exact opposite".

I took great exception to this comment at the time, and I still disagree. That was his personal experience, coming from rule of thumb ocean racers to multi-million dollar AC campaigns. But the amount of art and or engineering in a particular design depends on what the designer or engineer brings to the project. Look at one of Dick Newick's designs, there is a seamless integration of art and engineering that is awesome, the one cannot exist without the other.

But that is what establishes the individuality of each design, the integration of various amounts of engineering and art. Look at current raceboat design by Farr or Mark Mills or Finot, the engineering element is obvious, and strong. But so is the art, even a only slightly educated eye can see the difference, and would not mistake one for the other.

The art in any design is a moving target, some will see it, others will abhor it. Same with the engineering. Which is what makes it both challenging and frustrating.

My best to all, Tad