Spline Weights

[Guest]

I just found that the Westlawn School sell spline weights - it is good to find an alternative supplier. I think they sell at about $27.50 each.

[edneu]

While Westlawn had a hand in making this happen, the spline weights are available directly from these folks.

75 ounce Elkhorn/Westlawn Spline Weights are available for $27.50 each from :

Craig Smith or Dave Hopton
Elkhorn Composites
25 Grove Street
Watsonville, CA 95076
Tel: (831) 722-1654

They can be seen at :

http://www.westlawn.org/news/spline_weight.shtml

[betelgeuserdude]

75 ounces. Um good!

DC

[ErikG]

It's great that Westlawn has had them made but as for banging on the drum like that on the website...

Well YDS and Tom MacNaughton has had his available for any buyer since YDS started several years ago. As they are also priced at 28.50 one wonders why Westlawn choose the same price? :)

http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/spline_weights.htm

YDS are narrower and higher (I think) while the Westlawn looks "fatter".
Which one to choose?

Your choice.

I'm making my own.
I'm finally doing my own at his very moment. I used lead filled boxes before that -kind of- worked. But now it'll be the real thing.
The first cast yesterday didnt go well, as I misjudged how much lead it would need to fill up. Mine will be heavy :-) I'm considering tilting the form a bit and not filling it as high.

I'll post a pic when I'm done.

[Willallison]

I tried making some a month or two back.
Problem was I only had some pretty big ingots to melt down.
I did this (one at a time in a pot). Unfortunately it was so heavy that when I picked it up, the handle broke, sending molten lead all over the place!!:eek:
Once I got over that little epsiode I discovered that my molds weren't very good - so I'm on the hunt for something better - any suggestions?.....

[ErikG]

Well, what I can say after having done four yesterday evening, Plaster of Paris sucks! :-)

Even though the mould was preheated, it started to develop a crack, but luckily it held together...
After the first cast the bottom of the mould deteriorated and continued to deteriorate rapidly. The last (no 4) casting didnt look that great, but as I'll add some "putty in a spray can" (don't know the proper word for it). and sand it and paint it it'll be alright-ish.

The plug and Mould was perfect from the beginning so...

Is there anything I can add to the plaster to get it harder/stronger?

Would an Epoxi/fiberglass mould work or is the lead to hot?

ErikG

[Willallison]

The correct thing I s'pose would be to use casting sand. Whether you can use the stuff from the beach I don't know....

[betelgeuserdude]

Hey Eric.

Sounds like you could use a better plaster. I have been lead to understand that a plaster mold has to be baked all day, before one tries to cast lead. Could this have been an issue? Are you using building center Plaster of Paris? This site may provide some useful info on plaster, but I don't think that it has any information on casting lead.

http://www.plastermaster.com/
Plaster Master - Industrial machines, foam and plaster

Any resin will be unsuitable for mold repairs. It just won't withstand the heat. Hope you can find a solution.

DC

[Timm]

My memory may be failing me, but I seem to remember casting ours in wood molds at the Landing School. Back in those days, the boatbuilding class would cast their own keels for the cruising boat program. While they were melting and poring lead, the molds for the ducks were filled at the same time. We then took them home and finished them ourselves.

A suggestion for finishing the bottoms. Instead of using felt, look for some rubber that will not mark up the paper. I used rubber on one set and felt on another, the rubber works much better as it doesn't slide around as easily. The only drawback is that you have to lift the duck to move it, no nudging it a little for a fine adjustment! I think you can also make the duck a little lighter if it doesn't slide as readily.

[Willallison]

but I seem to remember casting ours in wood molds

Spline weights are sometimes referred to as ducks. So if they are poured into wood moulds, does that make them "Wood Ducks" ?!?:D :D

[Dave Fleming]

From out of the depths of the mess on my desk comes this...

As of February 2003, Ducks, Acrylic Splines and Ship Curves were available from HRS Products in New Jersey, USA.

E-mail: imarkunas@msn.com

Contact is David Markunas
Ph: 732-446-4834

NO guarantee they are still in business but, worth a shot I'm guessin'.

[Tad]

It seems to me you could carve a simple two-piece mold in wood, wax it well, and fill with lead shot and epoxy. I bet it would cost less than the $28.50 plus shipping and duty.

But you don't have the fun of melting lead:rolleyes:

Also, use slow-kick goop!

Tad

[Guest]

I've used two methods to make ducks.
Method one: I shaped a piece of wood to the duck shape, went outside into the garden and softened some ground. I carefully hammered my wooden shape down into the sand and compacted the sand around it once it was in place, I then carefully removed the wooden shape and poured the lead in. It did work but a lot of sand stuck to the lead and gave a very rough surface even when all the sand was removed. Maybe some very fine, evenly graded sand would work, something like foundry sand (surprise, surprise).

Method two:
I bent a flat thin mild steel sheet into a narrow 'u' shape about 100 mm long and then folded the 'ends' in to close them up. One end of the mould is a lot narrower than the other, but if I re cast them I'd make it even narrower than the first time. The length of my mould is around 100 mm and depth around 40 mm. I then pushed this mould down into the same soft sand patch, making sure the sand around the ends was well compacted to prevent spillage, and cast my 'ducks'. The result was some functional ducks but looks were reasonable rather than apealing.
Kevin Lester

[Guest]

There is nothing magic about the shape of ducks. Cat food cans filled with lead and fitted with a pointer work fine, in some ways better, because you can stack them.

I have also used cut up railroad rails in a mold loft.

(And I worked for a NA who had a nice set. The foundry of a yard he had worked at long ago made them for him as a present, cast out of scrap bronze with lead cores. They actually were duck shaped, with the beak arranged to hold the spline.)

[Willallison]

There is nothing magic about the shape of ducks. Cat food cans filled with lead and fitted with a pointer work fine

I tried this with very small cake tins. The result was ok - but I don't agree that there's nothing special about the shape. Wide ducks prevent you from placing them close together, which in turn makes drawing tight curves difficult.

[Dave Fleming]

"Wide ducks prevent you from placing them close together, which in turn makes drawing tight curves difficult."

I agree even in the Loft we had shop made ones about 5lbs each and they had nice narrow beaks which did make things easier.

You folks remember what a real down on hands and knees loft was don'cha?:D

[ericb]

There was an article in Woodenboat a few years back that told how to make 'ducks' using lead shot rather than molten lead. Basically you make a wooden case, fill with lead shot, and then seal it up good. One benefit is not having to deal with molten metal. Disadvantages - size, weight???

Anyone ever try to make these? Any success?

Oh yeah, the Woodenboat issue was #152, Jan/Feb 2000. I subscribed to this for one year and got lucky enough to have this particular one in my possession. It has a picture of some nice Venetian gondolas on the cover.

Eric

[edneu]

One nice feature of the shape of my Spline weights (K+E) is that the bottom of the tail of the weight has a slight rocker. This is handy when are checking the fairness of the spline by "unhooking" the weight to see if the spline moves, you just rock them back, no move, rock them down into the spline.

I saw the Westlawn spline weights at IBEX, They are nice and plenty heavy for drafting use. As for crawling on the floor lofting, well it depends on the spline if they would be adequate, You wouldn't want a 75 oz lead (nicely finished) lead chunk flying off of a highly sprung spline at you with any velocity.

[8knots]

Hey guys: I have kind of put this on the back burner but if anybody wants some I will proceed. I have my foundry set up now. But unfortunatly still have a real job so my projects have been dormant for a while. I have purchased a set of 1/2" pattern letters so I can customize them for you all. I can cast them in bronze and patina them also. because I am In Alaska I can cut the price to save you on shipping.... Say maybe $22.00 each. I had thought of putting a set of 6 up as a prize for a design contest held here????..... Havent really thought it through and have yet to propose it to Jeff and the powers that be here on the boards. Or maybe a trade for some work on one of my designs? Anyway sing out if you like them I will give them priority if the interest is there!
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=420&highlight=ducks

[8knots]

For the guys trying plaster here is a link to a site you can get some info on green sand casting and CHEAP ways to get some metal melted. The key to plaster is NO MOISTURE!!!!! even the low melt temps of lead will cause the water trapped in the plaster to explode as it turns to steam instantly. I dabbled with it for a short time and abandoned it. I use oil bonded sand now for all my castings. If you like the idea of casting the cleats on your classic it can be done fairly cheaply. check out budget casting supply's link they ship free to the lower 48. and by all means use a real crucible (silicon carbide) and you safety gear! I picked mine up on EBAY for a fraction of new. The keyword for searching is "aluminized" my suit is aluminized kevlar from NASA surplus. I think I paid $58.00 bucks for the whole set-up
helmet
jacket
pants
gloves
If anybody needs a little help finding stuff E-mail me I will try!
8Knots ;) http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/

[ErikG]

THANKS 8

Looks like an informative site alright
I'll still do my own ducks since shipping from US/Can to sweden can at times make my wife get an angry reddish face :) :D ;)

ErikG

[Willallison]

I too would love aset of your ducks 8, but I fear the the freight to Oz would be little frightening....

[8knots]

Don't give up the ship yet lads. I'm thinking on ways to make them hollow inside so you could fill them with lead yourself. still do not know what the weight would be on them. I went and bought pattern wax today so I will know pretty soon. I will keep you posted.
8

[Stu waring]

To clarify the Westlawn spline weight... I was quite unhappy selling our students plastic shells fill with shot, our only answer to supplying them with spline weights. I approached two very good friends of mine, Dave Hopton and Craig Smith of Elkhorn Composites in Watsonville, CA who have done a tremendous amount of tooling for me in the past both in glass and lead and inquired if they would be interested in creating some tooling for spline weights. I sent them a Waterline and K&E weight and they created a crossbreed from the two of them. They wanted some recognition and asked us if they could include our name when marketing them, resulting in the Westlawn/Elkhorn Spline Weight. Westlawn does not sell or make any profit from these spline weights rather we direct all inquires directly to Elkhorn. We pursued this only to provide our students with an option to purchase new quality ducks rather than making their own or searching endlessly for used ones. I tried to get some myself years ago from YDS but they never seemed to be able to keep them in stock. I finally beg a retired designer for 6 he had sitting on his window sill. When I came to work at Westlawn this was at the top of my list. I did get a free set from the guys as a thank-you, they tell me response has been fantastic! I am very pleased with the results and recommend them to all.

[ChrisF]

Melting lead gives off deadly neurotoxic vapor and is dangerous to all in the vicinity. But I've done it in my foolish youth. If you must unleash molten steaming death and dementia on yourself and your loved ones:
Plaster can work as a mold but IMHO is only good for about four parts before it falls apart. So make a simple wood plug, nicely varnished; then you can easily make 3 molds for a run of 12 weights. Also you can play with the shape -- mine are sperm whales with curled tails. Plaster must be utterly dry, like left in the sun for a week or baked all day in the oven as has been mentioned. Bang together small wood boxes to support the plaster, with about 1" of plaster all around the plug. Don't forget to make the plug a little deeper than the weights so it can stick up above the plaster, and don't ask me how I know this <g>.
Melt lead outdoors only !!!!! and don't overheat it or stand downwind. An old pot on a camp stove works fine -- something with a good handle. Destroy the pot after, so nobody cooks chili in it by mistake.
Bondo imperfections and coat finished weights with wrinkle-finish paint for grip, with sheet cork or felt bottoms. Or coat the weight with liquid electrical tape or plier handle coating and set on waxed paper to dry.
Sharpened brass or steel "L" hooks can be cast in (tricky) or threaded into large pilot holes. Drilling lead is not as easy as you might think: it's grabby stuff and plates the drill and galls up and busts bits. Greasing the drill bits and freezing the lead both help. Clear chips often and take it easy.
Personally, I like having a mix of different weights, 2.5 to 5 lbs.

[gonzo]

I solved the problem of tight curves by making beaks of different lengths on my weights. I cast them all the same shalpe. Usually, because the beaks are the same length, the body of the wieghts interfere. This way, they are staggered.

[chandler]

I tried making some a month or two back.
Problem was I only had some pretty big ingots to melt down.
I did this (one at a time in a pot). Unfortunately it was so heavy that when I picked it up, the handle broke, sending molten lead all over the place!!:eek:
Once I got over that little epsiode I discovered that my molds weren't very good - so I'm on the hunt for something better - any suggestions?.....

I have had great luck making my own weights. I made the molds from modeling clay then set the mold in 90 weight drywall compound...the mold set in saran wrap to keep it from sticking.
The mold, I set in tupper ware ..I made 3 however 1 would have worked as after pouring lead into them they just seemed to get harder.
I used a turkey cooker and cast iron frying pan to melt and pour the lead. Fortunately I have a good source for lead as I am a house builder and usually have lead left from chimneys etc.
The saran wrap leaves lots of voids but they can easily be removed by using drywall compound to smooth it out. Be sure everything has fully cured before trying to pour any lead

[chandler]

Drill a hole and epoxy a piece of copper wire in the hole..it's adjustable and plenty strong..

Melting lead gives off deadly neurotoxic vapor and is dangerous to all in the vicinity. But I've done it in my foolish youth. If you must unleash molten steaming death and dementia on yourself and your loved ones:
Plaster can work as a mold but IMHO is only good for about four parts before it falls apart. So make a simple wood plug, nicely varnished; then you can easily make 3 molds for a run of 12 weights. Also you can play with the shape -- mine are sperm whales with curled tails. Plaster must be utterly dry, like left in the sun for a week or baked all day in the oven as has been mentioned. Bang together small wood boxes to support the plaster, with about 1" of plaster all around the plug. Don't forget to make the plug a little deeper than the weights so it can stick up above the plaster, and don't ask me how I know this <g>.
Melt lead outdoors only !!!!! and don't overheat it or stand downwind. An old pot on a camp stove works fine -- something with a good handle. Destroy the pot after, so nobody cooks chili in it by mistake.
Bondo imperfections and coat finished weights with wrinkle-finish paint for grip, with sheet cork or felt bottoms. Or coat the weight with liquid electrical tape or plier handle coating and set on waxed paper to dry.
Sharpened brass or steel "L" hooks can be cast in (tricky) or threaded into large pilot holes. Drilling lead is not as easy as you might think: it's grabby stuff and plates the drill and galls up and busts bits. Greasing the drill bits and freezing the lead both help. Clear chips often and take it easy.
Personally, I like having a mix of different weights, 2.5 to 5 lbs.

[Steven R]

I just recently made my ducks per the July/August 1994 issue of Wooden Boat. These cost me $11.59ea in materials, one full saturday, and a few brain cells to lead fumes. I have since used them and I am very satisfied with the results. The one difference is that I attempted to add the "bills" after the fact. It worked, but I now know that lead is not fun to drill into (5 drill bits later)

I'd post pictures, but I can't remember my username/password to login and include an attachment (see brain cell reference, above)

Steven Roberts

[edneu]

Check out these spline weights.

http://www.pranos.com/boatsofwood/lofting_ducks.htm

[SplineWeights]

Check out www.SplineWeights.com We currently have two sizes of spline weights. Both rubbercoated not just painted. One specifically made for the drafting board. We will also design one to your specifications. Did I mention the largest is $10 cheaper than YDS or Westlawn.

[gooseknoll]

I have at least 20 spline weights that I would like sell (K&E 57 2870). They are in excellent condition and in their original box. Make an offer.

[aitchem]

I cast my Model Yacht keels in Dental Plaster.