Canoe Mold

[amery1836]

I came up with a new canoe design and constructed 2 cedar strip proto types. I would like to start constructing them for graphite or kevlar from a mold. Knowing my cedar strips aren't perfect for a plug. Is their someone around Minnesota or Wisconsin that could produce a cnc mold. And how much might that set me back. Thanks

[duluthboats]

I think both Wenonah, and Bell started with wood strip plugs, it worked for them.
http://www.wenonah.com/
http://www.bellcanoe.com/default.asp

[amery1836]

You're correct. Is that the best way to do this or is there a better way. Is there a good book on the process, or anyone in the St.Paul area that can help me get this done correctly. Bell had relocated from Prinstin or Zimmerman Minnesota to LaCrosse Wisconsin. Did they leave anyone behind that would be willing to work with me on this? I want to produce a high quality canoe which is somewhat different not currently on the market. Thanks

[the1much]

why not make a mold of your canoe, and then "perfect" the mold,,its really not hard,,once you make your mold,,,you can fair the mold.

[duluthboats]

There is a ton of knowledge in the MCA. http://www.canoe-kayak.org/
Also in St Paul you can contact Al at http://www.northwestcanoe.com/contact.html
If he can't help you he will know who can. Ketter is another that comes to mind http://www.kettercanoeing.com/apps/joomla/ You are in the hot bed of canoe building and design.

[amery1836]

Thanks for your info. I'll try the contacts you mentioned. I wish I knew one of Ted Bell's former employee's. I want this project done right. I am sure I could make the mold myself but would feel better working with someone who has done this before. Rather not learn from my own mistakes.

[SamSam]

A long time ago I read about some guy who was known for canoe design and had come up with numerous designs that were being made commercially by the big manufacturers. His process was to slap together his ideas in woodstrip as fast as possible, sometimes in a day or less, throw it in the water and try it, pull it out and make modifications, try it again, etc. When he got what he wanted, he faired and finished the woodstrip into a plug and sold it to whoever bought it. The companies made the molds etc.

It is much easier to fair the plug than it is to fair the mold. As in mucho grande. Your woodstrip canoes are an excellent start on a plug, providing they are symmetrical on port and starboard. If they are too far off, the canoe will want to turn one way or the other by itself. It would be no easier to cover and then fair a styrofoam cnc plug (Do they even make a cnc mold? From what I can tell ...
http://www.pilot3d.com/5axis.htm
... you mill a foam block into a shape and then cover that with glass and fair it to make a plug for a mold.) than it would be to fair the canoes you already have. Fairing is not rocket science or something that takes a lifetime to learn. Neither is moldmaking. There is a lot of info around about the processes, fairing plugs is very similar to doing auto bodywork. That's the good part.

The bad part is there is an awful lot, again as in mucho grande, competition in what you want to do. If you wait around for someone else to do stuff, you won't have anything to sell this canoe season, and nobody will buy them out of season, and people won't buy them in season if they don't have word of mouth or a brandname to back them up. I made a mold and built them for awhile. I lived near La Crosse and started by getting supplies from We-no-nah canoe a few gallons at a time. Years before I had gone with a friend to where Chickanowski (We-no-nah founder) made them, before it become a Business. It was some ones garage, and the guy was possessed. He lived, ate and literally breathed canoes. He was on the ground floor and a major driver of the rejuvenation of canoing as a sport, and if he wasn't cranking out new designs and plugs and molds as fast as he could, he was traveling all over the US racing, selling, promoting. There are now legions of similar people in his company, and lots of companies just like his.

If you are just going to do it as a hobby and sell some to break even, you might cover the cost of materials and a little more. In hobbies, time usually isn't counted. If it's to make a living wage, it will take many years to possibly become self supporting, in the meantime taking big (to me at least) amounts of investment in time, money, facilities, and require big amounts of pure business savvy to deal with the regulations pertaining to employees, environmental restrictions, taxes, finances and just generally everything needed to be successful. When you get big enough to buy materials by multiple semi and tanker loads, you will become competitive in material costs. When you get enough qualified, knowledgeable employees and the tooling and facilities to accommodate them you will become competitive in that regard. When you acquire enough money to float you through years of a bad or mediocre economy and years of no slim or no profit, remember, boats are the first to go and the last to come back when the economy tanks, well, then you might have it made. Hopefully you won't get sued, as you are legally responsible for any and all boats you make until the end of their life (or yours) and liability insurance is out of the question moneywise, which is allright as it probably isn't available anyways. Right from the start, the need for the ability to successfully build canoes is almost secondary to the need for the ability to be able to sell them.

Other than that, it's a piece of cake. ;o) I'm being pessimistic for a reason. You can easily drop many thousands of dollars into one of these endeavors and it will also take a toll on your personal life, especially if there are a wife and kiddies involved or you borrow from family and friends. But if you do all the research and still think it's a viable idea, well, good luck and all the power to you. Whatever I have said will just be a teeny weeny blip in the issues you will encounter.

[amery1836]

Thanks for the response Sam. Ok I can't give up on the Ideal I have. I First went to Bending Branches mfg.of high end paddles. They thought it has great promise, but not realy what their into, So they thought Bell or We-no-nah. Bell said they were too new of a company after relocating to take it on. We-no-nah was too busy staying focused on their market. They thought maybe best as a kit. Not what I picture. I really Thought it could of been produced and marketed by Bell. I realize that Marketing is going to be one of the biggest challenges. If I can't find a boat or canoe company to work with , I will build them myself. Nothing been easy for me why should this be any different :] lol

[amery1836]

What is a good reference for finishing the plug and making the mold. Is there someone in western Wisconsin that could give me a hand?

[Eagle Boats]

Amery, there are a fair amount of books that will take you through the process of building the plug, mold and part. I checked out Amazon.com and they had many books available.

The most difficult part of the process is building the plug. You are well ahead of the game because of your experience building strip canoes. In essence, that can be your plug. The key to building a quality product starts with the plug. You must ensure that the plug is about as perfect as possible, which will mean a considerable amount of elbow grease. Get the wood strips faired as best as you can, cover it with a layer of 10 ounce fiberglass cloth saturated with polyester resin. If there are any areas that require filling, you can actually use Bondo. You will then spray the whole plug with a sandable primer. I use a product called Duratec sanding primer. Its not cheap, and you may need to use a large quantity to get everything perfect. You can buff this up and get a very good finish. Once you are satisfied with the finish, you are ready to make a mold. The plug needs to be waxed many times before you do anything else. This is done so that the mold will come off the plug without any problems. I also will put a very, very thin coating of PVA, polyvinyl alcohol, on the plug. Now you are ready to make the mold. You will first spray tooling gel coat on the plug. Once the gel coat has cured, you will apply a layer of 3/4 ounce chopped strand mat. This needs to be done very carefully and you want to make sure that all air bubbles have been eliminated. This layer is called the skin coat. I will let this layer cure, and will then start adding layers of 2 ounce chopped strand mat. I will add enough layers of mat to bring the thickness of the mold to approximately 5/8 of an inch. After the glass has cured, you will need to reinforce it so that there will be no flexing of the mold. I typically use "black" pipe which you can get at Home Depot. The pipe or whatever you use to reinforce the mold should never come into direct contact with the mold. You should use a woven roving or a biaxial fiberglass to secure the reinforcing materials to the mold. Any direct contact can cause a hardspot in the mold, and can get transmitted to the finished product. Once the mold is complete, it is time to remove it from the plug. You will be amazed as to how difficult that can be due to the vacuum effect. Once the mold has been removed, I will wetsand the mold to get rid of the imperfections caused by the PVA. I will then buff it, and apply a sealer glaze. There is a company called TR Industries that makes a variety of products including waxes and glazes. Once the mold is complete, you can begin making parts. The mold will need to be waxed many times, and you should also spray a coating of PVA for the first few parts. This will ensure that the mold is broken in properly. As with making the mold, you will first spray a layer of gel coat. Once cured, you will then lay a 3/4 ounce layer of chopped mat. You will then apply additional glass, but as I have never built a canoe, I have no idea as to what the layup schedule should be.
The whole process from start to finish is not rocket science, but does take a fair amount of common sense and hard work. If I can do it, so can you. In addition to building boats, I am a Certified Public Accountant. I build boats to regain the sanity that I lose from pushing a pencil, contending with the IRS and SEC, and dealing with nutty clients.
Best of luck to you. Feel free to ask any questions.

[Steve W]

Amery,how good/bad are your prototypes? they may be good enough to serve as plugs if you do a lot of fairing,but remember,every hull you pull from the mold is only as good as the plug the mold was made from.I can probably be of help in some capacity.I started,owned and operated (and sold) a successfull fiberglass laminating business years ago and in the process built more than 1000 small boats among other products. Im in ne minnesota.if you are interested pm me.
Steve.

[SamSam]

Thanks for the response Sam. Ok I can't give up on the Ideal I have. I First went to Bending Branches mfg.of high end paddles. They thought it has great promise, but not realy what their into, So they thought Bell or We-no-nah. Bell said they were too new of a company after relocating to take it on. We-no-nah was too busy staying focused on their market. They thought maybe best as a kit. Not what I picture. I really Thought it could of been produced and marketed by Bell. I realize that Marketing is going to be one of the biggest challenges. If I can't find a boat or canoe company to work with , I will build them myself. Nothing been easy for me why should this be any different :] lol
When I learned was in the early 80s and there was no internet, so that's a huge improvement. A lot of companies on the net that sell resins, etc also give good free information on making plugs and molds. When I saw the delivery truck in Wenonah's parking lot, I quit buying from them and went to their supplier, Fiberglass Supply (I think) in LaCrosse. One of the salesmen was very helpful, giving me info on how it's done and how to do it, giving me factory discounts on small purchases, overlooking charging me for 5 gallon buckets and telling me of places they supplied where I might be able to go to ask advice, a great big help. But salesmen come and go, the next guy wasn't so helpful. You might ask Bell or Wenonah if they could give you a little tour and ask some questions, W. did for me. The University in Madison also had a boat building program so I drove over there to seek advice. The guy was not much help, alcohol and styrene tend to make people short on patience, but the U's bookstore had a few invaluable books. Here's one I got and still use..... https://www.boatdesigns.com/prodinfo.asp?number=12%2D435

As Steve and Eagle say, the finished product is only as good as the plug. Perfectionism and attention to detail is a good thing. A lot of fairing the plug comes down to longboarding, in fact fairing the plug is essentially the same as fairing a boat before painting and there's a lot of info on the net about that. My plug was basically a rough, 10 oz glass covered woodstrip, faired/sanded with bondo about 5-6 times, sprayed with hi build auto primer, faired/sanded, sprayed with auto enamel (Napa), waxed, pva'd and laminated. With the Bondo or whatever filler you use, one thing to do is be sure to fair/sand off all that is not needed. You are filling the low spots and any thin layers left on the high spots keep adding up and change the overall shape. Keep changing the color of each application so you can tell what areas you are working on and which need work. Have lots of lights, some movable, and continually sight down the finish to see wavy areas. You need smooth curve and line reflections the whole length of the canoe.

[amery1836]

Thanks for all the information. My cedar strip canoe is in pretty good shape. (hate to cover over my nice woodstrips) It does have a layer of 6 oz glass with epoxy resin. You mentioned 10 oz above will it matter? I'll get to work fairing this out. Thanks again

[SamSam]

No, it doesn't matter. Anything can serve as the base for a plug as long as it will remain stable and be able to be sealed to prevent the molds gelcoat from sticking. Basically anything that can be painted and waxed.

I never used epoxy and don't know if you have to use special fillers and such. Pretty much anything will stick to unwaxed polyester, but a lot of things won't stick to epoxy. Either way, if your canoe is covered in waxed epoxy, you have to remove the wax by sanding or stripping to allow the filler to stick.

You could always quickly build another, leave it on the forms and glass and fair it and make the mold. That would give you a real stable plug to work on, and also allow you to get out and beat the bushes with your finished canoe in the meantime, drumming up interest or sales. After the mold was removed, the plug could be finished as another woodstrip canoe. If you did that, mounting the forms on a ply covered platform a foot wider and longer than the plug would give you a reference point for measuring or attaching hold downs or various other reasons that might become apparent when building the plug and mold. The plug and mold would be elevated a few inches above the platform and the platform would not be an actual part of them.

Building another would also allow you to make any alterations you might want. One thing I did when I made the plug and mold was make the sheer line a few inches higher so as to be able to make the canoe deeper for extra capacity if needed. Even if the sheer line won't ever change on the finished product, trimming down to the finished sheer line, after cure, assures the finished edge is properly laminated, which isn't always the case when the finished line is at the edge of the mold. If you use wood trim, the edge of the laminate will most likely be exposed, and bad lamination showing there is kind of like a loud fart during a moment of silence. There is a point, when the laminate is still green, but not too green and not too set, that a laminate can be trimmed with a utility knife, slicker than snot, but the chances of hitting that time window are about the same as hitting lotto tickets.

I'm assuming you know a little about glasswork and also whether you need a two or more piece mold. Negative angles and such.

The more I post about this, the more I think I may have been too pessimistic.
One decided advantage a small operation has over a big one is a small overhead. Adherence to regs and restrictions and the Fine Points of Business can sometimes be overlooked, skirted or at least kept reasonable. Just remember that whether big or small, there are dangers to using the chemicals associated with fiberglass. Short term and long term, and not only physical and environmental, but sometimes financial.

I just want to put a waiver in here that no matter what advice I give or what it might seem like, I actually am not your mama. ;)

[amery1836]

SamSam, I Realy Appreciate the time you're spending on my posting. I Think what I will do is use this one for my plug. I should be able to make another plug from the mold I'll construct right or am I missing something?? If I could then finish out the oringinal strip canoe with a color finish. I did order up that book that you mentioned. In Constructing a 2 peice mold How do you make the part line? Thanks Again

[SamSam]

From what I can tell, you want to make a mold off your canoe, make another plug from that mold and then fair that up good and make another mold off that plug.?. If that's right, it is something you could do, but it's a bunch of extra time and money, and you end up with an extra mold you probably won't have a use for. If you don't have much room, it becomes a nuisance to store these things, they are bulky.

You get the plug ready for molding, all faired, shiny etc. Then you erect a parting board all along the centerline of the canoe. Mine was thin ply about 3" wide, painted and waxed, any seams in the ply covered with cellophane tape. That is somehow stuck to the mold, I used 1", 90 degree angle corner braces, with one screw into the plug and one into the back of the parting board to hold it upright. I plugged the gap between the board and the plug with modeling clay from a toystore and then cleaned the extra off flush with the face of the board.

Take care to get the corner where the plug and board/clay meet as sharp as possible, in that you don't want any fillet at all there, since when you finish the first half of the mold , you remove the parting board and lay the second half up to the first half, and any little fillet on the first half will create a knife edge on the second part, which will chip off and create problems in future molding.

You have to put "registration" points in the mold flanges so when they bolt together, they align up perfectly. The bolts themselves won't work as the bolt holes can wear and allow movement. You can add some kind of lumps to the board or make some kind of pit in it. Every 12" or so I made shallow holes in the board with a counter sink so the first half of the mold ended up with short cones which the second half molded around to form the registration points.

Next you wax up the first half of the mold and the parting board and then apply the tooling gelcoat. You don't want to use any hot mixes on the mold, you want a slow cure to minimize shrinkage or distortion. After the gelcoat has set, you apply a layer of 3/4 oz mat and let that set. You don't want a lot of gelcoat or resin in the corner between the board and the plug as that leaves a resin rich corner that is also prone to chipping, so instead of running one piece of mat from the plug up the parting board and creating a small, bubble filled or resin rich fillet, put one straight edge of the mat into the corner and down over the plug and the edge of another piece of mat into the corner and up the face of the board. You let the first lamination set completely, like overnight, then do another layer of 1 1/2 oz and let that set. Then next maybe two layers and so on until you get 3/8" or more built up.

Take off the parting board, clean up the clay, clean up the flange created by the board, plug any holes, wax it all and repeat what you did on the first half.

Before you take the mold off the plug, drill holes every 12" or so for 5/16" bolts to clamp the two halves together. Also, make some bracing and glass that to the mold. Let it all set for a day or two and then remove.

Steve W, 1000 boats is a bunch of experience. I never worked with more than 3 people and never where regs and restrictions were very worrisome. The last was ten+ years ago. The price difference between epoxy and poly was a lot bigger so epoxy wasn't used. What hoops would a real small operation have to jump through nowdays? What are some of the up to date methods and materials used for plugs and molds and finished products?

[carboncopy001]

you can also set your canoe on a level table and find center and do your measurements and basically loft your boat using measurements then get a university student taking a engineering coarse to put them on a program for cnc duplication. Or use exsiting boats for plugs and or start again using plywood strips with resin and glass but you will still have to take measurements from your exsiting designs to keep measurements accurate and make master plugs. I personally would start again useing my canoes for measurements only, this will allow u to use your exsisting boats for demo boats. This also reduce the amount of waxing and glassin you will have to do and will make good use of your exsisting strong back. split stern is the easyest way to go for demolding perposes. Only requires you to take a piece of arbright and center it on the stern hot glue and wax both sidesand layup to top of arbright make sure you give at least 3inches of height min. Only needs to cover stern to bottm of hull, have two canoe molds just like this. Also with this process it will allow u to put a flange on it for vaccume bagging the best way to go for a far supperior product.

[jrobinsonn]

Any ideas on what might be used to clamp a two piece canoe mold together other than bolts?
Is there a quick-release kind that you know of?
Also, If you use bolts, what would be the best way to protect from the wearing/friction damage around the holes drilled to receive the bolts?

By the way, that was some very good two-piece mold info, so thanks!

[mark775]

"providing they are symmetrical". - CNC can take the defects out.
"Do they even make a cnc mold?" Yes. And you could probably pull five or six canoes out of it without anything but release agent. Call Janiki, http://www.janicki.com/ , the one I know.
As far as two-part molds are concerned, this is where machined plugs really come into play - everything lines up!