wing masts and the like on skiffs?

[wind_apparent]

would a wingmast rig (think "A" class cat) work on a monohull or foiler hull very well? :p

[limeyus]

Yes!
very well.
only issue will be controlling the power with less righting moment than a cat

[Ramona]

would a wingmast rig (think "A" class cat) work on a monohull or foiler hull very well? :p

I saw this and thought you were joking. Wing masts, rotating and over rotating have been used in mono hulls for 40 years or more. Before aluminium was used in masts, development classes used spruce an used saw cuts in the leading edge to promote for and aft bending. Balsa was also used on leading eges as well.
There really isn't all that much that is really new in sailing.

[PI Design]

NS14, MG14, Tasar and Farr 3.7 all use over-rotating wing masts. The NS14 and MG14 are development classes that allow fixed or wing masts and wing masts are universally used.
My NS14 :

[wind_apparent]

it's not the rotating part that i'm worried about, I know that wingmasts have been used on everything for ever, its the sail shape and design i'm talking about. very skinny and tall, very efficiant in the windage and drag. not short and boxy like most monohulls, but taller and rectangular like a beach cat. Would righting moment be the only issue?

[gggGuest]

very skinny and tall, very efficiant in the windage and drag.
Plenty of those about too... But (albeit with a few *very* honourable exceptions) the US is something of a desert when it comes to leading edge boats.

[wind_apparent]

Plenty of those about too... But (albeit with a few *very* honourable exceptions) the US is something of a desert when it comes to leading edge boats.

yah, tell me about it, but my wife won't move to Australia, so I haveto use the web to try to keep up........but we have NASCAR and Football, so :rolleyes: :D

[Ramona]

it's not the rotating part that i'm worried about, I know that wingmasts have been used on everything for ever, its the sail shape and design i'm talking about. very skinny and tall, very efficiant in the windage and drag. not short and boxy like most monohulls, but taller and rectangular like a beach cat. Would righting moment be the only issue?


Nacra cats and the like have square top sails and I thought extreme. Check out the mainsails on the current crop of 18 foot skiffs. The top batten comes off the top section of the mast and is reminiscent of gaff rigs. The top batten top is far higher than the mast top. I would have thought having a taller carbon mast and an elliptical shaped top mainsail would be more efficient. 18 foot skiffs have enormous budgets so tend to be over the top.

My Finn has a wing mast too. With the Finn however the wing section is to assist in side and for and aft stiffness which is not possible on the old tapered sections.

[Doug Lord]

Check out the main on this 18:

[Ramona]

Nice picture. Main is not as extreme as the boats I watched on TV over the weekend though, at least that main has a slight elliptical look about it

[Doug Lord]

Did you see how the "peak" sweeps aft? I'd bet this was a modified sail to test that sweep back. The owner, Thomas Jundt, works with one of the best sailmakers in Europe....

[wind_apparent]

thats crazy, but free sail area is free sail area i guess...when is the new 18' foiler hull going to be released? I did the math for a tall ass high aspect rig and found that i don't like the way it works out, so back to conventional thinking:mad: , tanks for the input from everyone........

[Doug Lord]

High Aspect isn't everything:

[wind_apparent]

I have moved all this stuff to a "4meter monofoiler" thread in the sailboats section, thank you........

[PI Design]

it's not the rotating part that i'm worried about, I know that wingmasts have been used on everything for ever, its the sail shape and design i'm talking about. very skinny and tall, very efficiant in the windage and drag. not short and boxy like most monohulls, but taller and rectangular like a beach cat. Would righting moment be the only issue?

Again, the NS14/MG14:

[Munter]

I think that the NS14 is a special case which needs to be explained in a little more detail. The NS14 has small sail area and so the boats often operate below their design wind. Most effforts are made to increase the power out of the small sail area and a stiff wing mast is a good way of doing this. The additional stiffness of the wing section in the fore-aft plane can be used to support the large roach.
This stiffness does compromise the depowerability of the rig to some extent though. It is not as easy to pull a full cut main flat with lots of downhaul and vang as the masts just don't bend enough. Their stiffness can also make the gust response can be poor.
The short foot of the sails might be a partial byproduct of this as it allows big changes of angle of attack with relatively low sheet loads and distances, improving the helmsman's ability to deal with gusts.

Keep some of this in mind before you put that type of rig on a singlehander with challenging handling.

[Meanz Beanz]

I sailed NS14's for quite a while, I found the rigs ability to power up and down remarkably good, never found "gust response" to be an issue. In comparison most dinghies of the day seemed to be over canvased but inefficient. Our mains where cut to the over rotating mast, you didn't need a full cut the rig provided the depth when required and also allowed very efficient flattening of the sail as required. With low vang pressure twist was also highly controllable, you could step on the gas when you needed it and back off just as effectively, she was a marvel to sail in heavy air. I don't know what today's boats are like, only better I can imagine but I couldn't find much fault with the boats I sailed.

[gggGuest]

free sail area is free sail area i guess
Nope, nothing to do with it. The 18s don't measure sails, and the modern development dinghy classes that do almost invariably measure true area or something very close to it. You're thinking prehistoric leadmine rules.

[wind_apparent]

Nope, nothing to do with it. The 18s don't measure sails, and the modern development dinghy classes that do almost invariably measure true area or something very close to it. You're thinking prehistoric leadmine rules.

:p :p ;) ;) :p :p it was also a joke......

[Meanz Beanz]

No joking allowed here!

http://foolstown.com/sm/crazy.gif

[wind_apparent]

No joking allowed here!

http://foolstown.com/sm/crazy.gif

yah..........right...........nice picture:rolleyes: and where did you get that smiley, I don't have that one........

[Meanz Beanz]

Secret smiley stash....

http://foolstown.com/sm/git.gif

[wind_apparent]

Secret smiley stash....

http://foolstown.com/sm/git.gif

Not fair, not cool............:( (foolstown.com)

[SimonN]

Did you see how the "peak" sweeps aft? I'd bet this was a modified sail to test that sweep back. The owner, Thomas Jundt, works with one of the best sailmakers in Europe....
Doug

Yet again, you are talking ********. Thomas is a civil engineer. How can you expect anybody to take you seriously when you so regularly post stuff that is simply incorrect.

Now, knowing the rule "photos or it didn't happen", here is a link to Thomas's own company website. http://www.jundt.ch/

Now, where are the photos of you foiling..........

[SimonN]

Sorry for the hijack. Back to the topic at hand.

A few years ago, one of the 18' skiff skippers looked very seriously at using a Tornado rig on an 18. However, there are serious issues and it didn't go ahead. This thread has got me thinking........

[Meanz Beanz]

What issues did they run into?

[wind_apparent]

Sorry for the hijack. Back to the topic at hand.

A few years ago, one of the 18' skiff skippers looked very seriously at using a Tornado rig on an 18. However, there are serious issues and it didn't go ahead. This thread has got me thinking........

I know what you mean........all those formula cat rigs are so sexy, long and skinny, like a nice set of legs:D I wish I could talk myself into using one, but tall and powerful on a skinny little 13' boat isn't cool, can you see a 7.5m mast on there, I've drawn it up a couple of times and it looks scary, (but i bet it would be fast right up till you went swimming)

[SimonN]

What issues did they run into?
I honestly don't know. It was sean Langman who looked at it. However, I have been thinking of my own "challenges list". As we have just sold our No1 rig, I have about 2 months before the new one turns up so, if I can find a suitable rig and sort out the list below, maybe I will give it a go!

1. Stepping the mast - besides the need for a ball style mast step, is there enough room?
2. How do you get enough headroom. You need to be able to run under the boom
3. Rig tension. The T doesn't sail with a lot of tension and we would need to on the 18, so as to be able to point and also to hold the rig in the boat off wind. The T manages this with mainsheet tension. I don't think it would work on an 18. So, if we add rig tension, will it all still work.
4. How do you keep the rig in the boat with a masthead kite? It isn't designed to take it.
5. How will the mast handle the loads. There is an extra man on the wire and the boats are heavier.

[Meanz Beanz]

I'm no spurt... but you would probably need to re engineer the rotating mechanism so that you can still have effective rotation and carry the higher rig loads/tensions. I can't see why you can't run swept diamonds for the mast head loads and obviously you need to extend the rig somehow to get under the boom on foot. That kinda precludes any cheap experiments I suppose as you have to set up right.

Mebe you could graft a bulk standard T20 rig on for a bit of a suicide run with chase boat in tow just to see what happened... might be a laugh if nothing else but might be expensive to. I'd be really curious to see what came of it.

How does a T20 rig compare to an 18' #1, I'd have guessed smaller but I have not looked.

[Meanz Beanz]

I guess the short answer is you have to take the plunge and design and built the right rotating rig, Could be good, could be expensive folly... how good natured is your sponsor?

[Doug Lord]

Doug

Yet again, you are talking ********. Thomas is a civil engineer. How can you expect anybody to take you seriously when you so regularly post stuff that is simply incorrect.

Now, knowing the rule "photos or it didn't happen", here is a link to Thomas's own company website. http://www.jundt.ch/

Now, where are the photos of you foiling..........
------------------------------------------------
Simon, you're pitiful. Thomas is working with Europ' Sails and one of their best people is doing his sails. The Mirabaud site is here:
http://www2.jundt.ch/blog/
If you look at these two swept back mains you can clearly see the one that was modified from an earlier 18 sail:

[SimonN]

I guess the short answer is you have to take the plunge and design and built the right rotating rig, Could be good, could be expensive folly... how good natured is your sponsor?

I think you are right and this is why Sean didn't take it further. In the end, it might just be too difficult. Maybe, if I can find a rig, I will simply put it in the boat as a proof of concept. After all, you don't need to get under the boom to do a straight line speed test against another boat. However, spare T rigs aren't that common in Sydney!

As for the sponsor, I have 2 sponsors who share costs - Appliances Online and the co sponsor is ....................ME! As with many 18's, it is the crew who ends up paying for development.

[Meanz Beanz]

Proof of concept or just for the hell of it would be fun. Trouble is that the devil is in the detail and you may find it gives you no real clue as to what is possible.

Given the Bethwaite's involvement with the NS14 and 18's it would be interesting to yak them about the whys and where fores. They must have considered it at some point, surly?

[gadfael]

I would suggest you talk to Alex Vallings the kiwi 12 foot skipper. Also owns a carbon tube/mast manufacturing factory.. I believe the web address is www.c-tech.co.nz

There is an article written on the first outings of the R class wing by Alex.. http://www.c-tech.co.nz/article_wingmast.htm
A few years ago he did some work on setting up the 12 for the "R" class using a wing mast. Don't think he is still using it but its a start..

Good luck