1987 Bayliner Transom/Stringer Modification

[kj2008]

This boat has a step transom, was OK for the old 125-Force clunker. But I am remodeling the entire boat and the transom snd stringers are in bad shape as well. I want to change the transom set-up to tie into the stringers better and attach to the rest of the stern as well. To see the transom set-up there are some pics of a boat excactly like mine on shareprojects.com,search 1987 Bayliner Bowrider to see the pics. Ant information will be appreciated.

Thanks, Kyle

[the1much]

i couldnt even find a search button,,,,or read the page,,,was in some funky language,,,( funky meaning i cant read it) hehe ;)
try saving the images,,then post em

[kj2008]

Use this in your browser, it should get you there. This is my first boat, I didn`t find the problems with this boat until after I had it for awhile. Turns out the guy that had it before me had done a Jerryrig job replacing the floor. This Einstein use finishing nails to lay the plywood into the STRINGERS, thats only the beginng. Atleast he didn`t damage the hull itself. I could rebuild the same kind of transom that it now has, but I want something stronger. I plan on using this boat in the atlantic waterways and some island hopping around Cape Hatteras and the outer bank islands, not just on lakes. Going to be a site seeing and fishing boat more than skiing ect. I really need some help to make sure that I make the stucture as sound as I can, I can do the cosmetics on my own for the most part. Thanks for the interest Jim.



http://www.shareaproject.com/pages/projectTut,p,323,00.html

[kj2008]

By the way, the pics of the transom are at the bottom of the page . Just scroll down to them and click on to enlarge. This guy is doing a pretty good job, but even he is undecided on the transom.

[the1much]

no problem Kyle,,,first off,,,yup that link worked WAY better hehe ;) ,,second off,,,dont worry bout the carpet,,,if you decide after reading into it you wanna keep it,,,,its a EASY fix.,,the stringers,,,well,,,id go to a few threads here first before waiting for answers,,,,cause truthfully,,,stringer repair has been gone over bout 587364543 times,,,,well maybe not that much,,hehe,,try here,, http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=22113
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=22134&highlight=stringer+repair
heres a start,,,but use the search,,then after that,,you can tell us ya need more help,,,,and all kinds will flock,,,trust me hehe,,but ask in these other threads to,,,the guys there know hehe ;)
next thing,,,,dont get ya panties in a bunch,,hehe,,,stringer replacing is easy,,it just looks scary,,,after your first 1,,,you'll laugh when 1 of ya buddies cry bout his,,,(then ya can charge him big bucks to fix hehe)
nother thing,,,,have you been out in any kind of real waves with that boat yet?

[dragonjbynight]

Jim covered that very well, as for your transom replacement, I am working my way through that right now and have had many good suggestions. I am replacing mine as is, which I know you want to change yours, but the general idea will be about the same as far as thickness and so forth. http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=22113 There are some other posts on transoms, just don't remember them offhand.

[dragonjbynight]

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16263
found it.lol

[kj2008]

Thanks Jim/dragon, there is somuch information on the net on boats (especially here) that it is harder to sift through that to find. I`m new at this so I`m sure ,like you said jim, there have been a gazilion answers allready. I just don`t know where they are. When I bought this boat, I really wanted a ceneter console and after the things have have found in here I`m not sure I couldn`t make this boat a CC. That may be grasping for the stars, I don`t know. But back to where I began, I want to make the transom strongerthan before. Most good boats I`ve seen, the transom stretches the entier stern. I`ll check the info you guys have given me, and go from there.

Thanks again!!!

[kj2008]

Well, shes pretty much gutted. All the wood is out, time to put the sawzaw up and grab the grinder. The guy that had the boat before me really made my work alot harder. In some spots where he replaced the floor, it almost looks like he just poured the epoxy or poly and just let it settle , for the most part. Also I found that the stringers are scribed, not sure how to get them back in the exact same manner. He really made things hard by leaving some of the old wood and attaching the new on top or against and glassing over everything. I will start looking for the material for the stringers and epoxy, mat/cloth and all tomorrow. Not sure what I will find I my area, but I live in Raleigh N.C. and we have a pretty good supply of most anything else I`ve looked for. I do have one question I hope someone will offer some help with. I have read on here that there is a material (foam or something) that you put under the stringers to allow for stress from what I understand. I really would like to know for sure seeing as I am at the point that that will be one of my next steps. And after all this work, I want to do this (to this boat) only once. As for my questions about the transom, someone on another site has a boat identical to mine and he did a heck of a job on his. So (with my 1stproject boat) I will stay with the original design and try to do the best I can with it. Any advice on lumber, epoxy and supplier, type of mat/cloth to use would be definitly be appreciated.

[the1much]

wow man,,,,Thanks for the updates,,,so often people will ask a few ?'s then never let us know,,,kind makes "keeping" doing it tire' n after a while,,,,you give me new hope fer man-kind,,hehe ;)

[kj2008]

Everyone, I am having a hell of of a time doing the final clean up of the hull. I ahve looked here and there to find the right kind of disc or pad to clean out the inside of the hull. Either they only last about 2 min`s, or they clog up before really having any REAL effect. The part that is giving me the most trouble is the painted or whatever it is that was under the bow seats and in the middle of the hull, like where the so called ski locker was supposed to be .And also in the bilge area. I don`t know what that stuff is but it is a very good product evidently, cause it really hangs in there , in every nook and cranny,it`s almost as thick as the hull. Guys this is my first boat, I should have done more research before I bought it I know. But here I am, and hind sight is 20/20. I guess I wanted a boat so bad that i didn`t use my better judgement on picking one out. I can`t take all the blame though, the guy that sold it to me was pretty crafty. He took and put 1x4s in between the floor sections, using stove bolts under the carpet to stiffin the floor. He also used some kind of epoxy patch(a 4x4 cloth type w/epxoy to hold the stern to the splashwell) to hide the transom problem. Man this all makes me sick, but I don`t to just give up. Hard work is what I am accustomed to, but I am out of my field. I could really use some advise .

[the1much]

if its just trash ya grinding,,,get a 24 grit disc,,,i cut metal with them hehe.,,,hell,,,use a grinding wheel,,< no dont do that it wont work,,but 24 grit or 36 grit should work,,,,i use a 3" 24 grit to do all my heavy grinding,,,unless its so big ,,,i get a 8",,hehe ;) ,,,,and dont feel bad,,,im pretty sure EVERYONE in here let the thought of a "new toy" cloud our judgments heheee ;)
and it sounds like they used "national" paint on ya,,,,,and YES!!! the crap is like rhino lining hehe ;)
but an $20 small angled die grinder,,,and 1 of those 3" disc packages ya can get at any auto store will for around 12$ will get ya a long wayz hehe ;)

[kj2008]

Thanks Jim, I`ll difinitley give it a shot. I was really hoping I would be able to use the boat by the first to the middle of June. But unless I take some time off work I don`t think that will happen with only a couple hours a night and part of the weekend that the wife can live with. I feel like I can make better time once the destruction is done and the constuction can begin.

[the1much]

your in fer a surprise,,,,sorry,,,,,but the demolition is the FAST,,EASY,,part,, :( hehe ;)

[k2panman]

I have a 7" and 24 grit sanding pads with a rubber backing - this works great for big flat surfaces. However, to get in the nooks and crannies, and around bends and all those kind of places, I found some 3M wheels that you stick in a hand drill - they are made of a real coarse fiber that is coated with some magic grit stuff, and they cut very fast with just a drill. I don't have the name of them, but I've got some new ones with the tags on them - bought at the local hardware store. They really work great - you can grind off gelcoat down into the fibers if you aren't careful, but they really take the effort out of removal of paint, extra resin, can smooth off plywood corners, remove warts, cure ingrown.... well, you get the idea!

I'll find the name and part number of them if you're interested.

[kj2008]

Sure If you don`t mind anything to speed up my progress. I`m no stranger to power tools(use them eveyday) but it is definitley an art working with fiberglass. Hard as hell in one way, but using tools like grinders it seems so soft. I put the 7" up after sanding the larger flat , open spots, one slip with that thing and it`s going to add painting and gel coat to this project. Will anyone tell me what would be a good material for the stringers. I have read some on this site and other simular sites, but I did not really get a good idea what is best. I have several wood suppliers in my area, and hae called . They have oak, redwoods and quite a few others. The stringers are just under 14 ft. long. Also, do you use ply for the cross braces or do you use the same material you use for the stringers. Ant help will be appreciated.

[the1much]

i say foam,,fer a few reasons,,,is easy to shape to your boat,,unless ya like scribing and playing with wood for a few hours,,,foam would take ya a few minutes to shape,,then ya use filler for any gaps,,and to make your "corners" into radius's,,so that ya can cover with glass and have no air pockets,,,second reason,,,,is that if you use glass,,,the inside of ya stringer is just "filler",,so theres not an empty space,,,like crushing a full can of soda,,verses crushing an empty one.,,that said,,,if your stringer has motor mounts,,or any bolt through it,,i would use wood there,,,i've used foam next to the hull,,then a piece of wood on top of that for a thru bolt before.,,,,and this is just my opinion,,,wait for others to pipe up,,,we all have different preferences,,and our own reasoning as to why we think "our" way is better hehe ;)

[k2panman]

I replaced the wood in my stringers (34 Silverton). I used some treated hardware plywood. I only used hardware ply because Silverton said that in my boat, the wood was only used as a mold, all the strength comes from the glass. They said it isn't necessary to worry about the wood. I put wood back in and foamed it in with hardware spray foam in a can just to seal things up, and the wood gives me some strength - I was going to replace the inboard engines at the time, and I needed a core in the stringers to bolt to and not crush the fiberglass. Otherwise, I'd have filled them with foam, just to keep water from getting stagnant in there.

Better check with Bayliner to see if the wood is in your boat for strength - knowing Bayliner, you probably do need the wood for strength. I'd use marine plywood - okume would be my choice. The material is expensive, but if you need strength, that's what you want. Bayliner's aren't built extra strong, so you don't want to end up with less hull strength than you had. Hardware plywood is no where close to the strength of mariine ply - that's why marine cost so much more.

[the1much]

ive never seen stringers made of ply,,,them would be some thin stringers,,,but then again i dont work on many little boats hehe ;),,even with an inch of glass,,,ive seen lots of wood used,,, are you sure your not talking bout them little thingys your deck sits on?,,and marine ply aint that much stronger then regular ply made of same wood,,,its the crap they chemically treat it with to keep it water resistant and not rot, is what makes it $$$

[kj2008]

everything is down and out and after a bit more sanding, a lot of cleaning up all the dust I`ll be ready to start in the other direction. The old stringers came out this weekend, they look like they were just plain white pine 1x6s. the front of the stringers towards the bow, they had cut liitle peices of wood (like you said Jim) as filler then glassed everything in. If they had glassed all of the stringers includind all the spots where the crss braces and cross supports for the deck it might have lasted a lot longer. Everywhere there was a cross brace or cut in the stringer for the deck braces the stringers were soaked and rotted into. There was some foame in the front of the stringers to fill the gaps in the peices of wood. So I guess would be safe to say the strength comes from the glass. Jim would you use the pour foam, I`m going to have to have some to fill the deck and seat bases for boyancy and deck support anyway. I`ll try to cut the stringers as close as I can, epoxy them down. Before I glass and cloth them in I could fill all gaps with foam. Good idea or no? Still haven`t got tthe wood yet, I`m going to try and get it in the next day or so and if need be I`ll order some foam. What do you guys think?

[the1much]

i wouldnt use the 2 part pour foam for stringers,,i'd use closed cell foam,,there are many different kinds,,ive used even foam not made to deal with resin by covering with wax paper first,,then glass over.,,go to your supplier and ask what he has then ask which is better,,,theres no sense in telling you a certain kind,,and you can only get this other kind,,,,even check autobody shops,,they may have a good line for it.,,and to fill gaps in with "hull & deck putty,,,or ask them "epoxy dudes" if its alright to use thickened epoxy then glass over,,,,,,hull & deck is the only "filler" i know of that its o.k. to glass over.

[k2panman]

marine plywood is not treated wood. It is made to a higher quality standard than hardware store plywood. It has no voids in the core. The glue is better. Okume is much stronger than fir.

My 34 Silverton had 1" thick plywood stringers, 14" hi for the middle two stringers. I replaced this wood with 2 layers of 1/2" just to have a solid place to bolt to.

[the1much]

most marine wood is also treated for damned insects,like we have insect problems out on the water heheh (yes i know they do it for home use hehe ),,and the glue is different ,,,and being used in a stringer,,,ya could use particle board,,even that stuff that swells at the first thought of water,ya could use rolled up newspaper,,,anything to fill the "void". hehe ;)

[kj2008]

Thanks guys. Jim is there any way you know of to caculate the amount of epoxy I will need. One other thing, to cloth over the stringers can I use two 12" peices overlaped or do I need to use one solid peice . I`m not talking about the length of the stringers, I`m talking about from the center of the boat towards the sides. Sorry I don`t know the proper terminology for boats yet. I`m working on it, but I`m not there yet. I`ve driven a lot of boats, skied, fished, paried and had joy rides, but this is the first time I have been able to own one. Always wanted one , just never had the $$$. I`d really like to get a chance to use it some this summer, with the help of you guys it may even happen.

[the1much]

i would only use 1 piece of glass,,2 if i HAD to and no choice,,but 1 piece will always be stronger then 2.,,sorry,,i dont do math, so i really dont know how to figure the amount,,,i usually charge enough to make sure i get twice the amount i need hehe ;) ,,but search for Par. i know he knows the formula ;)

[kj2008]

Jim, for the stringers the factory used whatever to make a mold and inclosing with polyester to get the strength needed. I`m am going back with epoxy, any idea how many layers to use of cloth, or how many layers of epoxy, or the two of them combined. I always loved boats, but I`m gaining whole new love in a different kind of way. I really wanted to buy a boat that was usable, I knew (what I thought was) a good bit about how to pic a sound boat But it turns out I was up against a salesman and a dealership named BOATS UNLIMITED,. Turns out this was a trade-in, and the guy telling me this was a good boat was a salesman. And yes the boat almost allways cranked on the first or second try(not bad for a FORCE). It road very smooth and handled well, until I heard the POP. Thats when the transom broke, someone had put some kind of epoxy/glue or what ever patch holding the splashwell/transom to the lower hull. Well, one of them broke causing there to be a unusual rooster tail on the left side of the boat(evidently from the flex in the hull), and the boat was hard to turn. After a lot of digging I found the patches (one broke) and after ripping all the 3m5200 from the joint at the splashwell/transom, the crack was evident. I know I have been had, but not so much if I can bring it back to life, hopefully with everyones help it will happen. I have a lot to learn , please be patient I a tradesman and even if this is not my trade I`m not too old to learn. With the right help that is.

[the1much]

you'll be using both,,you'll wet out with epoxy,,lay your glass(mat) and wet that out,,then another layer of glass over that (let me steer another dude that has WAY more knowledge of epoxy then me,,i'll send him the link and ask him to give you specs. on it,,but i would go with a good size cloth like 1808)and wet that out,,,that is AFTER grinding (36 grit paper) the areas where your new glass is going to bond with your old.,,,then stand back a grab a few beers,,enjoy the fumes ( well,,,if your were to be safe DONT do the fumes hehe) and dont be to hard on yaself bout being a dillweed and buyin a piece of crap,,,(jus playing hehe ;) ) ,,cause we all STILL do it,,have done it,,some on MANY occasions,,,and its like buyin a car,,,,unless you tap,,clink,,and touch every inch,,,,someone gonna hide somethin,,(like them bar babes at 2am,,hehe ;),,,and anyways,,,,this forum is FULL of people who bought something cool,,,only to find out a short time later it was a nightmare,,,,,,kinda like them bar,,,never mind,,,,i'll try gettin them "epoxy lovers" ova here to give more experienced advice on epoxy.

[PAR]

I've avoided this thread because Jim seemed to have it in hand, but now it's time to dispel some misinformation.

You can use two part pour in foam for your floatation or as a core for stringers, etc. On floatation, use the lowest weight stuff you can get (around 2 pound) as you'll get the most buoyancy from it. On structural elements like stringers, you'll want the stiff stuff like an 8 pound foam. www.fgci.com sells both and they're a two component polyurethane, which is a closed cell material that doesn't absorb water, unlike what was formerly in your boat, which was probably polystyrene.

I'm very familiar with that model and era Bayliner, I've fixed quite a few.

Laminate thickness over your stringers should be about what you removed. I'd error on the too much side then not enough.

Jim's a poly guy so he's in love with mat and combo fabrics (like 1708, etc.). Epoxy doesn't need the mat, because it doesn't need to be "bulked" out like the poly's do, nor does it need "help" from the mat to make the bond.

Use anything you want for the stringers, even cardboard will work, though most feel better is something substantial is in there. The laminate over the stringer (which is just a form) will provide all the strength you need.

I generally like to tab things in with several layers of a lighter cloth, say 8 ounce, and build up thickness with the same. The contact area of the tabbing should be as generous as you dare or have room for. A main stringer for example would carry a 4" to 6" wide contact patch on each side, where the tabbing bonds with the hull. A minimum of three layers of fabric, which can usually be done at the same time.

I usually work in spiraling pattern, until I'm out of goo or fabric. I reload and continue until I've one layer of tabbing on everything. Then I go back as do it again, while everything is still wet. I'll do this at least three times before a beer calls me to service it. If you need more bulk on specific areas, then continue applying goo and fabric until the desired thickness is met. The main stringers and transom supports need the most tabbing, just try to match the thickness of what you ground away, maybe with a little extra, just for good measure.

You were correct to increase the thickness of your transom. Typical plywood transoms would be two layers of 3/4", not one. I don't know if the Capri came with an outboard option, because I've only seen I/O's on them. This would go a long way toward explaining why the transom only had a single layer of 3/4" plywood. An I/O equipped boat doesn't place as much force on the transom.

You've likely used a bit of over kill in your wooden reinforcement, so you now need to do the same with the 'glass work.

Hey, Jim, epoxy doesn't smell man, it's easy to play with. This doesn't mean you should eat it, or wear it in your hair or on your skin, but it's a lot easier to live with then poly's. The smell of amine blush and the swoosh of a cold beer opening, on a hot afternoon of itching inside a boat beast, what a life . . .

[the1much]

hehe,,ya,,,the no smelly thing is probably why i dont mess with it,,hehe ;)
and Thanks Par. :D

[kj2008]

Thanks Par,and you too Jim for sending Par here. I haven`t posted lately, work has had me by the leg. I have been googling about epoxy, cloth,ect. Par, do you or have you used MAS epoxy. I have been to their website, they have a lot of info there. And they have an epoxy that is amine blush free, so they claim. If true could save some valuable time and labor (all mine), but I wonder if it would compromise strength or take more time to get the thickness needed. I hope you guys can save me some of the trial and error time with your experienced info. One more thing, none of the pics that I have seen on DVDs, videos, or in books show cloth on top of the stringers. But yet the stringers were totally incapsuled with the poly. I realize the strenth of epoxy is greater, so do you just tab the joints w/layers and just glass the tops of the stringers. And should I glue cleats on each side of each stringer (flushw/tops) for the deck to attach to. I know I`m flooding you guys w/???, I wish I had studied this hard in school, probably wouldn`t have this project if I had. Thanks for the help!

[the1much]

are you sure of what your seeing?,,,because no matter what your using,,poly,,vinyle,,epoxy,,just the resin has absolutly NO use,,,no strength,,and no way of sticking to the sides,,,,i think what your seeing is just that your almost always going to have more resin on ya sides,,which "hide" the glass,,and the resin on the top of the stringers, get "worked" in better which shows ya weave.,,,,,but if you "watched" these ******,,,,,,i mean people, JUST put glass on the top,,,,then throw them videos and pics away,,,,they were of "tards" and probably 1 of those "dont do this" movies,,,,hehehe ;)

[kj2008]

Jim, I left out a little bit on my last post. They used glass cloth on the joints (from stringer to hull), 3 layers. But none on the top. They didn`t show this in the video, but had pics on the how to reading. Here`s what they show.


section.http://boatbuildercentral.com/howto/repair.php

[the1much]

well,,,their still idiots,,hehe ;) ,,,,ya need cloth from hull,,up and over stringer,,to hull again.,,,if ya want to build it like bayliner did,,then go with those guys,,,,if ya want a boat thats still floating in 10 years,,,do it the right way,,,hehe ;)
and i KNOW how ya feel bout doing this,,,,so just throw their tape away,,:D

[the1much]

and i forgot,,,how and what are ya making ya stringers with?,,,but it really dont matter,,,,,lose that bookmark,,hehe ;)

[PAR]

All the major brands work very well and have surprisingly similar physical properties. I use a proprietary mixture. In NC you may want to consider using a product that has a slow or better yet a very slow hardener. In the warm summer months, you'll need the working time.

Only a few of the goo makers offer the extra slow stuff. There are some lower cost goo makers, but they also have limited offerings, though you do save money. If you can control the building conditions to some degree, then a low cost option is a good way to take it.

Amine blush free epoxy is nice, but you'll find most don't trust the concept. This means if you wait long enough for the epoxy to cure and want to apply additional coats or laminations, you're relying on a mechanical bond. In these cases you have to sand to provide "tooth" to the surface, which will remove the blush anyway, so why spend the money on amine free goo when you'll have to clean and abate the surface is spite of it's physical qualities.

The only time blush free goo is handy, is on multiple coatings intended to remain clear finished.

I'm not sure what you've been looking at, but as Jim points out, folks will do just about anything and call it good, just to get your check. Stringers and other structural elements have to be covered on top as well as tabbed into the hull shell.

[kj2008]

Thanks Jim and par, enough said. I have asked the same to many, and got no straight answer. NOW I have, and I`m good with that. Jim, Par, don`t you guys give up on me just yet. You guys talk in laymans turms, that I can relate to. I am a tradesman, but I never had any experience with the fiberglass/epoxy trade. The short time I have I have gained a respect for your trade. Sorry , I gotta go Time for dinner. I`ll respond a little later. Thanks again for the reposnse!!!

[the1much]

as always,,,Your Welcome,,,and it gives us old farts something to do when its too hot to chase school kids out from in front of our house,,,hehe ;)

[PAR]

Hey, I'm not an old fart, though I do pass gas with an increasingly alarming rate, at least according to the one that must be obeyed. Nothing wrong with my prostrate . . .

[kj2008]

Jim, Par, I got a question for you guys. Fine tuning the prep work I wonder if I may be grinding away too much material, from what I`ve read the epoxy will not hold well if the surfraces are not totally clean and you have solid glass to attach to. Is this normal and can be built back up as you rebuild, or should I be concerned. It`s not like I`m seeing fiber and gelcoat or anything like that, but some of the spots where the wood under the poly is now only covered by a very thin layer of poly once I got through the paint. And in the bilge area it took quite a bit of getting rid of the black/brown dirt/scum. I haven`t gone too far yet so there is still time for some instruction.

Thanks, Kyle

[the1much]

my head aint on straight today,,,but i'll try to help,,,if i can understand what your saying,,,clean yes!!,, wipe with acetone after all cleaning and anything left over should be gotten by that,,and you can build everything up as you go,,,fer eva,,,but,,,i would want to make REAL SURE that everything is AT LEAST as thick as before,,,but would feel WAY better if it was thicker,,if your talking bout ya hull seems thin,,,then you can always lay down glass on ya hull first,,get it to a desired thickness, then go to your stringers.,,just keep thinking bout ya mom out on ya boat with ya about 80 miles from shore,,,(i hope ya love ya mom) and build it to where you feel safe with her there with ya.
o.k.,,ill check this again later when my head clears up and i'll see what i left out,,hehe ;)

[PAR]

Clean and well abated (sanded) to a rough finish, will give you the best secondary bond. Yes, build up the laminate if you have to. It's easier and stronger if you do this all at once then with secondary bonds.

[sikpupy]

Hello all, new lurker here and totaly confused :confused: . Everyone complains about the stern being rotted and then "and probably the stringers are bad too". Well, if it is said in this post that stringers use wood as a form and the fiberglass is the strength, then rotten stringers would be a moot point? Obviously the transome is very important though.

Second, again, if the fiberglass in a stringer system is what gives the strength, then why grind it out? Why not just string over it with a few layers of epoxy? I know ripping everything up and doing it all a new is great, but, if not needed??

Hope I am not high jacking, just trying to add another option, with a few questions about them, to the thread.

[the1much]

Hello all, new lurker here and totaly confused :confused: . Everyone complains about the stern being rotted and then "and probably the stringers are bad too". Well, if it is said in this post that stringers use wood as a form and the fiberglass is the strength, then rotten stringers would be a moot point? Obviously the transome is very important though.

Second, again, if the fiberglass in a stringer system is what gives the strength, then why grind it out? Why not just string over it with a few layers of epoxy? I know ripping everything up and doing it all a new is great, but, if not needed??

Hope I am not high jacking, just trying to add another option, with a few questions about them, to the thread.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
first is,,,,the "wood" gives it shape AND keeps the stringer "full",,,like ive used before,,,,,,,,take an empty soda can,,,,squeeze it,,,,,easy huh?,,,,,now take an empty can,,and fill it with sand,,or water,,or rocks,,or saw dust,,,,,now squeeze it,,,,,,its really hard aint it?......
second off,,,,,,,questions that your asking,,,,,are the questions you need to ask to learn,,,so never be sorry for asking,,,,,this site is built on "questions",,,
hehe ;)

[sikpupy]

Thanks, I just want to make sure I ask them in the right place and also give everyone there light in the sun without being an overgrown oak tree hogging all the sun, as far as analogys go :) .

[the1much]

as long as your question is "close" to the thread question,,,,theres no problem,,,,,,if anyone gives ya crap bout it,,let me know :)
hehe ;)