Hints on ANYTHING

[the1much]

Alright guyz,,ta hell with having to go to 10 different threads to find a few hints about glassing, or painting, or anything else,,,so this thread should be titled
" WE Have a FEW SECONDS,,Tell US What Ya Know",,more or less,,any "tricks" Faster Ways to do something,,things Ya Know is gonna happen after we do a "epoxy" job,,or warn newbies about airpockets,,or sagging,,any of that crap ;)
But the FIRST HINT of "HOSTILITY" and there WILL be PROBLEMS ;)
and THANK-YOU,,,i'd like to FILL this thread with EVERY bit of KNOWLEDGE,,and EXPERIENCES we ALL have had,,,and MAYBE 1 of "us" might learn something COOLZ hehe ;)

[tinhorn]

One of my favorite tricks for removing excess resin in a layup was to use a paint roller (you can buy them at the dollar store). Just roll it all over the layup when you're done and it sops up the puddles and potential drips.

[TollyWally]

I use visqueen for templates. Pin it where it needs to go, smooth out the wrinkles and waves, and use a sharpie pen to draw the lines. I then add all sorts of notes and arrows and measurements etc. You can see and mark everything under the template, ribs, wires, pipe etc. If it's really critical or expensive material I then make a second generation template out of masonite.

I got turned on to this idea by the boat upholstery guys and now use it all the time. Fast, easy, pretty accurate and the notes help you not overlook all those obvious things that slip your mind when using patterns.

[Kaptin-Jer]

I put spray painters out of business by rolling and tipping and save lots of money:P :D

[the1much]

only the bad ones hehe ;) :P

[rambat]

You can make a quick mold out of anything or an exacting side cockpit side fiberglass panel for upholstering by fist covering the shape with shiny packing tape, glass on top of the tape and it pops off with ease.

[masalai]

The1, http://www.thecoastalpassage.com/bblog.html will give you "a view" - look at all the links for the full article, to read the mag - it is free, click on the "lighthouse"

[Kaptin-Jer]

Not a Hint, but a wish for hint---I want to know where or who sells Stainless expansion bolts (like the kind you use in drywall) So that you can bolt through fiberglass into places where you can't get a nut on the bolt. Think about those 150 toe rail bolts that I had to tear the whole inside of my boat apart to get to!!

[Frosty]

I hate toe rails. For that reason.

[masalai]

Make it of glass, foam form and glass over - then no leak problems - ever... and none of that rubbish teak to varnish/polish...

The original Bertram's had the good philosophy - when one has finished fishing, hose it down and finish!!! Why make extra un-necessary work...

[Frosty]

Flush deck is of course the way to go but I think he was refering to the alluminiun type with attachments down its length for various tackle to be attached.

Again I would go for the flush deck approach and find some other method of attaching a boom preventer for instance.

Bfore I make ANY hole in my boat I seriously consider if it is absalutely necessary.

Those toe rails with a countersunk screws every 2 inches are just ridiculous. ----- Yacht designers??

[the1much]

i like toe rails,,,,just not ALL those screws,,its pose to be for safety,,just to let ya "know" your toe is at the edge,,,,my toe aint that strong,,,maybe 16 screws on a 60' would be o.k. for me,,hehe
o.k.,,,this 1 should be on Grady's awl-grip thread,,,,,,when spraying,,use Vasoline around your mask to make an "air tight" seal,,alright,,time to go back to work,,hehe ;)

[Kaptin-Jer]

Not a Hint, but a wish for hint---I want to know where or who sells Stainless expansion bolts (like the kind you use in drywall) So that you can bolt through fiberglass into places where you can't get a nut on the bolt. !

Guys, Not just toe rails! Think about all those places that it takes two people to put in a hut / bolt, then think about how many times there is only you. and you have to dream up all sorts of ways to get the nut on (longer bolts with a vice grip above and the below the nut--) It can take 3 hours to put in one nut and bolt if you are by yourself. A stainless one sided bolting system needs to happen. Make it so!!

[tinhorn]

T-nuts. Either embedded into a piece of oak laminated to the panel, or embedded into the panel itself, with a piece of mat holding it in place. Presto-zoomo - one-man bolting.

Well, not so useful after the fact, I admit.

[masalai]

Jeees Jer, - - How many people have said "stick it on" - use epoxy, or, whatever - better job, no holes, smarter finish. Don't forget little breaks for water to run out/away... SS bolts and such like are just asking for leaks and problems... There is an old old story about a farmer called "Hardway" and he always did it the hard way - standing up in a barb-wire canoe... (I hope a little bit of laughter helps the "medicine" go down...)

[Frosty]

I cant believe you don't have a friend, brother girlfriend, or pay a boyscout.. A bit easier that 3 hour bolting.

[Kaptin-Jer]

Jeees Jer, - - How many people have said "stick it on" - use epoxy, or, whatever - better job, no holes, smarter finish. Don't forget little breaks for water to run out/away... SS bolts and such like are just asking for leaks and problems... There is an old old story about a farmer called "Hardway" and he always did it the hard way - standing up in a barb-wire canoe... (I hope a little bit of laughter helps the "medicine" go down...)

Your preaching to the choir, but you are not entirely correct. For instance toe rails in older boats also act as clamps holding the deck to the hull. That is why there is a bolt every 6". Not to just hold the rail on but to clamp everything together. Every bolt has to be covered with 5200. But There are many other places that I wouldn't trust an Epoxy bond and need to bolt. How about the steering pedestal? Thats a two person bolting job. I did it alone.. took a full day of creative cursing--going below crawling under the deck clamping the bolt with vice grips going back up top wrenching down until you hit the vise grip going below replace the vice grip going back op top, wrenching it down all the way---painful, but you can't epoxy a steering pedestal to the deck. Now if someone invents a SS wing nut!! I would have been finished in 30 minutes

[Kaptin-Jer]

I cant believe you don't have a friend, brother girlfriend, or pay a boyscout.. A bit easier that 3 hour bolting.

I'm lucky, my wife lets me go to the boat alone. I want to keep it that way!!
My son is designing missile launching systems, and I only get to see him once a month or so--thats what I save the heavy work for. No the boat is my refuge, don't need a bunch of people around unless it's after 5 and they bring beer--------

[masalai]

Surely there is a glue that will effect a bond that will overcome such ancient practices with commensurate risk/disadvantages... most production boats have been glued (epoxy or whatever) for as long as I can remember moulded glass boats - even the old Hobie cats were glued...

[TollyWally]

SS wingnuts are easy to come buy in my neck of the woods.

Sized from 6-32 up to 1/2-13
Tacoma Screw Products 1 800 562 8192

[grady]

Kap, If were my boat, and I was doing a complete refit of the deck and it's hardware. I may consider making the the hull/deck/liner joint under the toe rail, that way it could easily be mortised out to acomidate the through bolt heads. then installed with much fewer screws and for that matter removed with less fuss.

[Kaptin-Jer]

TollyWally
I will be looking into that place. http://www.tacomascrew.com/ Thanks!!


grady
I think you missed the point, or section:D The hull is made with a lip, the deck sits on top of the lip, and then the toerail extrusion sets on top of the deck. The extrusion is sort of T shaped with the leg sitting on the deck and the top of the T acting as the toe stop and also drops down to cover the deck/hull joint. In older boats it was the first piece of harware put on a boat because it held everything together. That is what makes replacing them so difficult. Everything is built on top.
Look at the pic. This is the new (salvaged) toerail.

[Landlubber]

Try making common sence use of Cyanoacrylate glues, great for a second pair of hands in many places. The bond is not part of the process, only a means to an end.

[Kaptin-Jer]

Landlubber,
That works. I have also just used 5200 on the bolt, Let it sit overnight then wrenched the nut.

[masalai]

Enjoy Kaptin, I do not envy you your difficult tasks, bon chance...

[Kaptin-Jer]

That was one of my FIRST tasks to weather in the deck when I first got the boat. It took 3 months of week-end work. DONE!!

[the1much]

o.k. ,,,,im gonna "pirate" me own thread,,hehehe ;)
what ya think bout,,,making a trailer (we'll call it a boat trailer hehe) and making it outta a old truck frame,, and keeping the rearend in it,,and hooking it to a (power take kinda unit) and when the mud and crap gets to thick,,ya could put "power" to the trailer wheels.,i magine its been done before,,but i neva seen it and got a "brain fart" this mornin ( i love sunday mornin meds hehe) and got an old truck in back,,,sooooo,,hehe ;)

[Kaptin-Jer]

Jim,
Go back to bed for another hour or so,, Add power to the trailer?--whats going to keep it from climbing up your truck bed when it breaks loose? or jack knifing. I understand adding breaks, or a power winch, but power to the wheels?? not too sure...
Jim ,If you are around later we'll talk. Doing the Taxes then going to wax the new truck--first time I waxed anything in 6 years. Turn on your talkee later.

[Frosty]

Cause you can make a trailer from an old truck chassis. It'lle look like shit and be worth about as much as discarded dog vomit but yeah can do.

[Tiny Turnip]

1. SS pop rivets? polyurethene adhesive sealants? (SiKaflex et al)

2.the British Army trialled powered trailers for the landrover101 forward control, using the rear power takeoff. they didn't go into production. it was too easy to jacknife the whole rig under power, and then the drive from the trailer -would overturn the truck.

3. we all know this, but- relaxing, making time to not hurry, and understanding that the REAL job is the preparation.

[the1much]

o.k. kapt.,,,but i mean so like JUST when its a uh-oh moment ,,and about to get everything stuck,,,going through wash outs,,deep mud,,,,and it could have a control,,,but ya wanna be fast with it,,hehe ;)
talk to ya laters hehe ;)

[the1much]

HOLY CRAP!~!!,,,,have ya seen the dude that made a 49' viking boat outta Popsicles sticks?

[GWB]

Must have been a big popsicle

[charmc]

Not a Hint, but a wish for hint---I want to know where or who sells Stainless expansion bolts (like the kind you use in drywall) So that you can bolt through fiberglass into places where you can't get a nut on the bolt. Think about those 150 toe rail bolts that I had to tear the whole inside of my boat apart to get to!!

Jer,

I was away all last week or I might have saved you all the abuse you had to take. On second thought, these guys would find a reason to heap abuse anyway, so no harm done. :D :D

Expansion bolts, or wedge bolts, are for attaching to a solid that's as thick or thicker than the bolt. The drywall type are toggles. They're both available in SS. The illustration on one site shows them used to anchor a seat pedestal to a deck. Perfect use, saves the trouble of trying to reach the bolt point from a hatch several feet away. (Not fun, I've done it. :( )

Anyway, here are some sources:

http://fastenmsc.stores.yahoo.net/togglebolt.html

http://www.overtons.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?r=view&i=34969&cID=SHOPZ_34969

http://www.mutualscrew.com/subcategories.php?pid=544&gclid=CKiJlOLsyZICFQG5PAod90X1KA

[charmc]

o.k. ,,,,im gonna "pirate" me own thread,,hehehe ;)
what ya think bout,,,making a trailer (we'll call it a boat trailer hehe) and making it outta a old truck frame,, and keeping the rearend in it,,and hooking it to a (power take kinda unit) and when the mud and crap gets to thick,,ya could put "power" to the trailer wheels.,

Jim,

A load carrying chassis with an engine to power the wheels. ... Hmmm ... sounds familiar, I know I've seen something like that before ...

where was it ...

damn, it's so familiar, I know I've seen it ...

Got it! It's called a ...

truck! :P :P :D :D

[Kaptin-Jer]

Thanks for the links, Charlie, Can't tell you how many times my arms are 2" too short, or I can't bend like a pretzel to get to the bolt. I'm sure I'm not alone. (any places in our neck of the woods?)

[the1much]

see i knew it was a good idea,,,just didnt know it was a truck hehe ;)
what will they come up with next,,the internet,,hmmmmm hehe ;)

[Kaptin-Jer]

Next?? You'll be asking my advice on how to roll and tip!!! That's after your wife makes you give back that new expensive gun you just bought.

[Kaptin-Jer]

Try something simpler. Just a power winch on the front of the trailer. If it gets stuck, un hitch, move the truck forward to hard ground then hook the trailer's winch to the truck. The winch should pull the trailer out to the truck, if it pulls the truck back to the mud--well you didn't really need that truck anyway---

[Kaptin-Jer]

Jer,



Expansion bolts, or wedge bolts, are for attaching to a solid that's as thick or (Not fun, I've done it. :( )
&gclid=CKiJlOLsyZICFQG5PAod90X1KA[/url]
I checked out those sites, Gulp,,, $19.00 an anchor! If I was to have used them for my toe rails..$19.00 plus the 1/4" bolt @$20.00 x 150 = more than I paid for my boat!!
and I am not sure that they lock well, I used all lock nuts. Sorry Charlie, the thought was there, but I think these toggles have a very limited use.

[the1much]

alright guys,,,go read the last 4 or 5 posts,,,tell me what ta hell im missin and if i should never touch fiberglass again,,hehe ;)
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2629

[charmc]

Sounds like Pericles' recent post describing a lawyer for the British Labour Party who said that only an idiot would think that the Prime Minister's promises to the electorate constituted a binding obligation.

I read somewhere that all product warranties are carefully written and vetted by the company's lawyers for the sole purpose of limiting the company's liability in the event of product failure.


So what's new? :rolleyes:

[charmc]

I checked out those sites, Gulp,,, $19.00 an anchor!

Jer,

Mutual had them for 25/$100. That's $4.00 each; not as bad. I think a lock washer would give you the permanance you need. I've used toggles in many projects, although never on a boat. Like most things, they're a compromise. You've got to use what you're most confident with. For me, they beat trying to snake my arm around multiple bends and trying to hold a nut with my stubby fingertips. :)

[Kaptin-Jer]

Charlie, I put those sites in my "favorites". I'm sure they will come in handy. Thanks

[Kaptin-Jer]

JIm,
Those engineering types aren't the ones putting things together down in a bilge thats 125 degrees. They sit in an office and specify very expensive "glue", because it's not their money and because they can. I know because I do the same thing:P Just not in the boating business.

[the1much]

i was jus wondering bout "mechanical" "chemical" and "secondary" bondings,,,and that the idiots dont know the diff between any of them,,hehe,,trying to tell me bout bonding,,,idiots,,,now,, they can say what they want bout aluminum,,,but dont tell me that i dont know the difference between the bondings,,you would think them :book smart" people would know,,hehe,,man,,,,now i dont know if i mechanically bonded or secondary,,or chemically,,,i feel as dumb as they are,,hahahaha
JUS kidding (not really) hehe ;)

[masalai]

Arrrr, the1, did you forget "thermal bonding"? an old blacksmithing trick... Heated appropriately and two different things will sometimes stick together - it may not be entirely useful for all materials but should be tried by "Mythbusters" :D:D:D particularly on something and a powder made of carbon, sulphur and pottasium chlorate - to keep in with their favourite activity... boooom...

[the1much]

forget it,,,no way,,,didnt even know i knew,,hehe ;)
anyways,,i posted my final response to the "bonding" quest.,,a couple days ago,,,,they must be reading for their response,,is taking an awful long time fer dem smat peepole hehe ;)

[ratrace2]

:confused: I use visqueen for templates. Pin it where it needs to go, smooth out the wrinkles and waves, and use a sharpie pen to draw the lines. I then add all sorts of notes and arrows and measurements etc. You can see and mark everything under the template, ribs, wires, pipe etc. If it's really critical or expensive material I then make a second generation template out of masonite.

I got turned on to this idea by the boat upholstery guys and now use it all the time. Fast, easy, pretty accurate and the notes help you not overlook all those obvious things that slip your mind when using patterns.
What is visqueen? Is it some sort of fabric, where do you get it....

[charmc]

I think visqueen in the UK is like kleenex in the US, a trade brand that has become a generic term. The visqueen I know is a clear polyethylene film that comes in rolled sheets. What we call clear plastic drop cloth.

[ratrace2]

I checked out those sites, Gulp,,, $19.00 an anchor! If I was to have used them for my toe rails..$19.00 plus the 1/4" bolt @$20.00 x 150 = more than I paid for my boat!!
and I am not sure that they lock well, I used all lock nuts. Sorry Charlie, the thought was there, but I think these toggles have a very limited use.
Have you considered tack welding a SS Nut to a SS strip.....Then, clamp the strip, or epoxy the strip, or just screw (dry wall screws) the strip to the boat, or just hold the strip until you get a couple of bolts started and then you are done.....:) You could do it in 4ft sections.

[TollyWally]

RatRace,

CharmC is exactly correct, it's cheap clear plastic that comes in rolls usually 8 to 16 feet wide by 20 to 100 feet long. 6 mill is about the mininum thickness, the thinner stuff stretches and is too flimsy.

The upholstery guys who turned me on to the idea use really expensive plastic with some fibers sort of like packing tape in it developed for commercial greenhouses. If it's handy I'll scrounge a piece from them, but if not, I just use easy to get cheap stuff from the lumberyard. A roll of what they use would last me several lifetimes at a much higher cost :) Good luck with your template!

[ratrace2]

RatRace,

CharmC is exactly correct, it's cheap clear plastic that comes in rolls usually 8 to 16 feet wide by 20 to 100 feet long. 6 mill is about the mininum thickness, the thinner stuff stretches and is too flimsy.

The upholstery guys who turned me on to the idea use really expensive plastic with some fibers sort of like packing tape in it developed for commercial greenhouses. If it's handy I'll scrounge a piece from them, but if not, I just use easy to get cheap stuff from the lumberyard. A roll of what they use would last me several lifetimes at a much higher cost :) Good luck with your template!

It sounds like a cool idea, I'm just trying to visualize how you use the stuff. It's for templates right; what do you do, just lay it over your area and use a Sharpie to mark out the part you want to make? Something like that.....

[TollyWally]

RatRace,
Precisely, either tape, pin, or clamp the plastic to the area you are trying to template depending on the underlying material. Smooth it out as best you can, getting rid of as many wrinkles and waves as possible. Then use a sharpie pen to outline the edges.

I will sometimes use a batten or straitedge to help guide the pen. Then you can identify what ever you need for what ever you are doing, location of ribs, wires, pipes, etc right on the plastic along with all the arrows, notations, measurements from one thing to another. In short anything that seems obvious right there but might give you pause back in the shop etc.

I find double checking my measurements which I wrote on the template help give me a good reality check when laying out the real thing. If it is real critical or real expensive material, I will make a second generation template out of masonite.

[ratrace2]

Thanks for the links, Charlie, Can't tell you how many times my arms are 2" too short, or I can't bend like a pretzel to get to the bolt. I'm sure I'm not alone. (any places in our neck of the woods?)
Kap,
I got it, I got it:
Super-glue the nut in place, then just go back on deck and drop the bolt in and tighten accordingly...........Darn I'm good....:cool: :cool: :cool:
Hey, Kap:
How do ya think I make the connection between NASCAR and the boat???

[ratrace2]

RatRace,
Precisely, either tape, pin, or clamp the plastic to the area you are trying to template depending on the underlying material. Smooth it out as best you can, getting rid of as many wrinkles and waves as possible. Then use a sharpie pen to outline the edges.

I will sometimes use a batten or straitedge to help guide the pen. Then you can identify what ever you need for what ever you are doing, location of ribs, wires, pipes, etc right on the plastic along with all the arrows, notations, measurements from one thing to another. In short anything that seems obvious right there but might give you pause back in the shop etc.

I find double checking my measurements which I wrote on the template help give me a good reality check when laying out the real thing. If it is real critical or real expensive material, I will make a second generation template out of masonite.
OK,
so, what are you doing when you do this:
Are you laying out a window, port-hole.
Are you fitting in a head liner, a wall cover.
Are you fitting out the interior, exterior.....
Where am I when this process is most usefull

[dragonjbynight]

Any thought of converting some of these threads into a boat design.net complete how to guide for members? just a thought.

[ratrace2]

Uh, NO:
But I elect you to the postion of editor....so get busy.:)

[masalai]

and pay the copyright fees... - - to me & I will distribute appropriately...

[dragonjbynight]

No problem here, i'll edit my hearts delight. Just don't depend on me for the actual know how....will have to depend on you guys for most of that!

[TollyWally]

RatRace,
The last couple of times on my boat was making heat deflectors for a new stove installation, headliner panels, exterior aluminum airvents (not completed) and getting the right radius for a curved back to a new cabinet.

But just put it in your bag of tricks. Once you've tried it you'll get a feel for when it will help you.

[masalai]

What is so difficult with "cut&paste"? 'onya dragon... - - make sure your spell checker is "British English" or if you do not want the odd red squiggley line under the occasional expletive, choose Australian English.. :D:D:D - - some of us old farts get a bit niggled, to whit; "color, aluminum, nukela" - - just stop that misspelling & dropping letters - colour, aluminium, and nuclear - please??? :D:D:D

[dragonjbynight]

Ill do my best masa..lol

[the1much]

OK,
so, what are you doing when you do this:
Are you laying out a window, port-hole.
Are you fitting in a head liner, a wall cover.
Are you fitting out the interior, exterior.....
Where am I when this process is most usefull

on a damned BOAT! hehe ;)
man your showing them "bronx" brians again hahaha hehe ;)

[ratrace2]

yea, on a boat: making templates for parts, see TollyWally.
p.s: I'm not from the Bronx. I live in Jerzey:)
Where is Fox Island.????

[TollyWally]

Where is Fox Island?

LOL,
47.14.201 N 122.35.318 W
2.5 miles south of the Narrows Bridge
Southern Puget Sound
Washington State
West Coast
United States
North America
Western Hemisphere

Or roughly put, clear across the country and up a little bit.

I think there are some or a Fox Island(s) on the East Coast and up in AK too.