Gensets specifically for hybrid power sail (mono & multi)

[masalai]

Electric drive motors...
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=21880
Hybrid power...
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=21860
Batteries...
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=193456#post193456

Discussion...
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9310
Solomon Technologies...
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=676
Some reference sites
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpos...6&postcount=10

more links as I find them

[masalai]

Polarpower inc with Lombardini - backtrack for other sizes (smaller)?
http://www.polarpowerinc.com/products/generators/3-8kw_Lom-1003.htm

[Archim]

Ample Power (http://www.amplepower.com/) is now manufacturing 48v DC gensets based on Kubota mini-serie diesel engines, and their own alternators :

- Genie 48/100 : 2-cylinder with one alternator, supplying 100 A at 57.6 V;
- Genie 48/200 : 3-cylinder with two alternators, total supply 200 A at 57.6 V.

The 200 A is installed with a large oil tank for automatic oil changing, to reduce maintenance. Indeed with such a large current, wiring and protections have to be carefully designed.

Aside from automatic start/stop based on battery SOC, the Ample alternators charging controllers have battery temperature compensation, which for instance Fischer Panda VCS (Voltage Control System) do not offer. Given the number of batteries needed, it is a point to consider seriously.

Neither Fischer Panda nor Ample Power offer speed control seen on the Ossa Powerlite 220 VDC generator. But from the article from Nigel Calder in the Oct-Nov 07 ProBoat issue, a more sophisticated controller from Fisher Panda seems to be in the work.

JC

[masalai]

Achim, Thanks for the info & site, check out the weight differences and fuel efficiency... I am after maximum range so less gen-set weight means more fuel for same overall boat weight. Have a look at the "Ice-Cat Challenge" http://www.icecat.com.au/trial.htm and the other pages are well worth a read....

[brian eiland]

Here's an idea that seems to be really catching on, putting a 'generator' inside the bell housing of the propulsion engine. Steyr was an early promoter, and now Yanmar joins in:

Steyr Integrated Flywheel Generator
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/32761-post63.html

Yanmar Integrated Unit

[FAST FRED]

These are indeed a great step forward?, for the service economy.

Instead of yanking an alternator off the front of the engine or a PTO,
you get to disconnect the shaft , remove the engine , unbolt the transmission and finally to purchase replacement parts ONLY from one dealer.

WOW!

FF

[Archim]

Masalai, when you say you're "after maximum range", what are your criteria (type of boat, length, displacement, motor speed, programme) ?

A typical serial DE will have an efficiency around 70% (80% generator, 85% motors & controllers); an hybrid system 55% to 60%, depending of the relative size of the battery bank (considering 80% battery efficiency).

Fuel efficiency can be increased by having e.g. two generators of different sizes, which has the substantial benefit of offering redundancy in case of a generator breakdown, but with a weight and cost penalty.

The most efficient is the parallel DE motorisation, which allows better fuel efficiency than a traditional diesel/shaft transmission at low loads (typical situation at cruising speed in smooth sea), with a minimal weight addition; but it does not offer the main advantages of a serial or hybrid solution : design flexibility, noise reduction, automatic battery bank management etc.

Every choice is a compromise corresponding to different needs...

JC

[CTMD]

The best solution in the one I worked up a couple of years ago but lacked the time or money to develop..

Inline geabox / brushless DC motor (95% effiecient). Drive options become:

1. Direct diesel, no generator/ wire/ battery/ motor controller etc etc losses
2. Hybrid, Diesel and electric motor driving the same shaft.
3. Electric, Motor only

4. Long range cruise (cats only). One engine running driving its own prop and powering second prop via regen off the attached motor.

[masalai]

Archim, - - I am still digging around. - - The boat will be a cat, - I need regular "Go sail" fixes, so it is either, power with a little beach cat as tender, or sail cat as the cruiser... I acknowledge that weight control is an issue on all cats with any hope of performing. - - To that end I am looking at power alternatives, and Lombardini have a light diesel & the genset produced by - - http://www.polarpowerinc.com/products/generators/marine_micro_cogen_lomb.htm - - without the box, seems to meet the "sail version" need, in conjunction with the "retractable drive system" from http://www.africancats.com/ with minimalist batteries for 'house' which supply power whilst diesel kicks in... I am looking at twins of both.

The market appears to be very dynamic, in that new technology is being presented on an almost daily basis. This is good for us boaties. That is one of the reasons I was happy to set up and cross link several threads, on this, and related topics... Look at post one for the links...

[Archim]

Chris,

This is indeed what I was referring to by a 'parallel' Diesel Electric (that I have discovered in the recent series of articles from Nigel Calder and Graeme Hawksley in Professional Boatbuilder): a diesel engine and an electical motor in parallel, driving the same shaft.

Graeme Hawksley from Hybrid Marine (http://www.hybrid-marine.co.uk/) is presently developping this system. There is a very interesting comparison of the available DE technologies here (http://www.hybrid-marine.co.uk/resources/Technology+evaluation.pdf).

Examples of efficiencies of a brushless motor or controller at various speeds can be found here (http://www.hybrid-marine.co.uk/resources/Sea+trial+report-rev3.pdf) and there (http://www.lemcoltd.com/performance.htm). In the case of Hybrid Marine, I have been surprised to note that the 48vDC motor+controller is 86% efficient at full boat speed, but only 70% efficient at half boat speed. I have read somewhere that controller efficiencies increase with voltage, so I suppose that overall efficiency of systems with higher max voltage (e.g. 72vDC for Leroy Somer, 144vDC for Solomon/eMotion, 220vDC for Ossa Powerlite) is likely to be increased.

Both Graeme and you arrived to the same conclusion for best fuel efficient catamarans, see attached pdf.

JC

[masalai]

Archim, I looked at your pdf, may I suggest you have a look around the AfricanCats site. - - I see no point in dragging a screw (folding or otherwise, hence the "retractable" option) - swing up and out of the water when sailing with no need to recharge batteries quietly... to recharge batteries swing one or both screws down into the water, switch on, kick the throttle/s a bit to activate the generator mode...

Had a look at your other links and gather you are talking "monohull" and I am thinking/talking cat - coming from different angles but technology needs are similar.

[CTMD]

Archim, without wanting to be rude, that's a very dumbed down version of my concept. Mine would look more like the picture that Brian attached with the gearbox and generator components combined and enlarged (reverse would be from electric drive only). Its also important to separate brush-less DC motor from their brushed siblings. Back in my solar car days we were running brush-less motors that were 97-98% efficient. brushless motors also have a lot more consitant efficincies accross the range of speeds, due to the nature of their switching.

[Archim]

Chris, you are correct, the motors from the Hybrid-Marine trials might be brushed motors although there is no reference, and the LEM motors are definitely brushed.

Which manufacturers of brushless electric motors would you recommend for marine DE ?

JC

[CTMD]

Good question, my application requires a custom design for which I would talk to one of the research groups who were developing these motors last time I used them (1999) ie. Northern Territory University, University of Technology, Sydney or Paul Lillington. I'd be surprised if you could find a suitably marinized product off the shelf. The only way to find out would be through some serious Internet research and getting on the phone to people.

[Archim]

Thanks Chris. Sydney is a little far for me... eMotion (ex Solomon) and Ossa motors are brushless, but I'd like to find the equivalent with a 48vDC voltage, to reduce number of batteries.

Masalai, yes I've looked at the links at post #1. Nice and enjoyable thread, thanks for opening it. Those retractable propellers offer many advantages: more efficient fixed propellers, no drag when sailing, regen only when wanted. Let's wait and see when AfricanCat have finished their trials and are ready to launch the product. I wonder what the length of the arm will be, and whether large bulkheads reducing brigedeck clearance will be needed as shown.

JC

[CTMD]

Archim, reduced voltage is going to eat into both your system and proposulsion efficiency.

[Archim]

Yes, I am not far from being convinced that the 144vDC system from David Tether is the most efficient hybrid DE on the market currently. Maybe the reason why Calder chosed to install an eMotion motor in his new Malo. I'll sleep on it...

[Pericles]

Archim

Not brushless, but pretty good and being used. These are Asmo motors.

Pdf for their 17kW motor.

http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/pdfs/Asmo_Marine_THOOSA_17000.pdf

Here is their website.

http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/04.shtml#Q01_12

I'd be interested in your assessment.

Thanks,

Pericles

[Archim]

Pericles,

ASMO use Lynch (http://www.lemcoltd.com/lem_200.htm) motors. Although ASMO state that their motors are 'up to 93%' efficient, this is likely to be for the 72 V Thoosa 13000 motor, at peak efficiency -which generally is a half the rated duty. As seen above, the efficiency of brushed motors and controllers can drop down sharply when speed hence voltage go down. It is a pity those dealers do not give the overall efficiency of their systems at various rpm.

Also, the Lynch motors are rated IP 20 so I don't know whether ASMO does anything particular to tropicalise them, or if they have to be installed in an immaculately dry and clean environment.

JC

[masalai]

For a start, this can go here SOLAR PANELS - NEW DEVELOPMENTS

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/29/2258722.htm
UQ makes solar-power 'breakthrough'

Queensland researchers say they have made a major breakthrough in renewable energy technology.

Professor Max Lu from the University of Queensland says they have been able to grow titanium oxide crystals, which could be used in solar power cells and water purification and recycling devices.

He says the material is cheap and easy to produce and it will make solar energy more cost-effective.

"The promise of such a crystal is, because it's such a high-reactivity surface that we're creating, they will enable the boosting of efficiency in terms of solar energy conversion to electricity," he said.

"In other words, if this can be made into a solar cell it is going to be much more efficient."

He says the technology will make solar power more cost-effective, but concedes that it is up to 10 years away from being commercially available.

"This has shown great promise. The prospect of this in the area of renewable energy is huge," he said.

[masalai]

Some more information on the developments at UQ can be followed here . http://www.uq.edu.au/news/index.html?article=14818

[masalai]

Jeff (moderator),
Is there any way to correct the last line in the first post of this thread as it no longer has a link to go to???
If the link cannot be repaired then could that last line be deleted?
Thanks mas...

[masalai]

A Bob Oram 44'C is due to be launched in April 2009 with "glass/composite legs made by builder and Re-e-power motors and PolarPower Volvo-penta driven "disk" generator giving 11KW and 22KW in parallel with the batteries....

I am looking at the Torqeedo 2000R legs (either 2 or 4) for my Bob Oram 39'C (no regen as yet but price and weight are good) and build commencement in April 2009.. I have opted for 24v DC system for house & drive and 12v for ship, nav & diesel genset start/management - - - all is not 'set in concrete' yet, as dual 24v systems have a point in redundancy/backup...

Another 44'C is closer to build completion than mine has ordered a pair of torqeedo 4000R legs, batteries, solarpanel system & controller package - this will be the 6th Bob Oram designed boat he has built and will be for himself....

http://www.torqeedoaustralia.com/Torqeedo_Australia/Products.html there should be links back to find your local distributor - else just google "torqeedo" ...

I am trying to get info on these sites offerings http://www.adelaidesolar.com.au/page?pg=18 and http://www.onsitepower.com.au/products/marine/dc722m.htm