Electric drive motors for sail craft (mono & multi)

[masalai]

It is getting to that stage where new developments, products and "market prices" can be found at one point.
This parallels BATTERIES at
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=193456#post193456
and hybrid power at
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=21860
Gensets...
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=193525#post193525



Discussion...
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9310
Solomon Technologies...
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=676
Some reference sites
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpos...6&postcount=10

[masalai]

http://www.africancats.com/ & click on GREEN MOTION Retractable Drive System 31-05-2007 for some neat looking submersible retractable drive info in pdf format...

http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/01.shtml for the thoosa inboard drive systems end stuff...

http://www.perm-motor.de/pm_e_htm/products/pmg/daten_pmg_132.htm for some tech specs from Perm Motor GmbH...
more here:- http://www.perm-motor.de/index_e.html

[masalai]

Other reading, potentially interesting sites include
http://www.fischerpanda.co.uk/electric_propulsion.html
http://www.ossapowerlite.com/
http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/04.shtml#Q01_12
http://www.sillette.co.uk/elect_saildrives.pdf
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel-electric

http://www.solomontechnologies.com/m_recreational.htm

[Archim]

http://www.lemcoltd.com/ (motors used by ASMO Marine)

http://www.hybrid-marine.co.uk/ (parallel hybrid; co-writers of Niger Calder articles on DE in ProBoat)

http://www.re-e-power.com/

Controllers are not as simple as motors, maybe it would need a separate thread.

JC

[masalai]

Good additions to the database Archim, I also forgot the reference to Africancats, their pdf on "retractable" electric drives has a very good power to weight factor...

[brian eiland]

Don't forget the up and coming 'rim drive motors'
"Interestingly it appears as though the relatively new permanent magnet electric motor technology has driven this new interest in rim-drive propulsion. From Brunvoll," the development of RDT has been triggered by market demand for an increased number of ships where both the main propulsion units and the manouevering thrusters have electric motors with variable speed drives. In this context the RDT offers a number of advantages."

So rim drive propulsion is advancing right along with the thruster development."

http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9432

There is a really big 'superyacht' that is in design stage and projected to utilize this technology. I'll add a reference to the rim drive discussions soon.

[Javaid Hosany]

Good Post

[masalai]

Here are some images I got from African Cats by email - - Hold the cursor over the image and the motor is 36.5kg with prop... for the 15kw or 10 kw versions?

[masalai]

Oops? and some more?

[masalai]

Pricing and other info as a single page pdf... for the African Cats electric motor

On another topic, - It seems there is progress with new solar panels in 10 years (Queensland University development announced today - I am pleased) http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=21881&page=2

[brian eiland]

..There is a really big 'superyacht' that is in design stage and projected to utilize this technology. I'll add a reference to the rim drive discussions soon.

Panamax 'super-ketch' will use rim drives:
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=196808&postcount=46

[kistinie]

Hi,

i have taken the 1GM Yanmar engine out of my 36' 2.8Tons trimaran, and won't put it back !

I'm searching for a pod engine i can rotate 90° or more.

I have found theses additionnal sources for engine

http://www.tsltechnology.com/marine/thrusters.htm
http://www.bellmann.nu/?nr=1
http://www.kraeutler.at

and maybe an hubner-braun solution but not digged yet
http://www.boot.de/cipp/md_boot/custom/pub/content,lang,1/oid,20311/ticket,g_u_e_s_t/local_lang,1/~/H%C3%BCbner-Braun-Zykloidenantrieb_-_ohne_Propeller%3C_01.08%3E.html

As anyone already used such a product (e-pod, Krautler...)
and what about water protection ?
Is oil filling compulsory ?

About brushless controler
http://www.KellyController.com
This seems interresting as they have a water proof low cost solution...but not tested !
Same question, who know more about it ?

thank's for help !

Kind regards

François

[gideon]

Here are some images I got from African Cats by email - - Hold the cursor over the image and the motor is 36.5kg with prop... for the 15kw or 10 kw versions?

Hallo Masalai the unit shown of 36.4 kilo complete is 9.6 Kw net with over boost to 13 Kw
we are bringing out units ranging from 8 up to 25 Kw and the weight for the 25 Kw is below 70 kilo.
the weight of the controllers amplifiers are less than 2 kilo

Gideon

[masalai]

Thanks gideon,
The thread is some 16 months old - - - - - apart from kistinie who uses another thread for her project...

My build is well on the road to completion in April 2010 and Torqeedo seems the best option at present (a bit pricey though - but the rapidly increasing value of the AU$ may change that position... (See the second link at the bottom of this post)...

[gideon]

Hallo Masalai, I have a lot of experience with Torqeedo since we are the importers for South Africa and they are ok but not for continues use and to small for your boat in my opinion, 6 KW each side is the minimum but I would advice 8 Kw your cat is nice and light weight but it does have a lot of windage and going upwind will be the problem

Good luck with the build

Gideon

[Bill Tomlinson]

Electric auxiliary systems for sailboats up to 40 feet are available as a complete kit with all components. They provide high torque, but quietly and cleanly.
The resource is Electric Yacht http://www.electricyacht.com
I am on staff with the company, so yes, this is a blatant promotion. New battery technology is bringing both weight and cost down, while performance is going up. The net result is that electric power is now ready for sailboats, both for new and retrofit installations. It is lower in cost and about equal in weight (including batteries) compared to a traditional ICB engine.
If you have questions, you will find answers and installation stories on our Web site.

[apex1]

I am on staff with the company, so yes, this is a blatant promotion.


Ok, but I did not find how long the longest grid connecting cable you supply? Or do I reload my battery with infernal combustion engine?

[masalai]

In my experience (I am using electric motor drive) as a stand alone system cannot be justified, BUT for one (self) who is paranoid about gas bottles and cookers in the galley, likes mains power galley/kitchen appliances, and is prepared to do the research as a total package, it is sort of justified if one also qualifies as a self-sufficiency nut case and a bit more... Keeping the weight down is STILL expensive and difficult as my genset is around 120Kg for a 22hp diesel & 100amps 48V charging capacity (I can get and use coconut oil to run the genset) and PV solar panels & batteries are both expensive and heavy, bloody expensive and lighter, or risky in some way or other... but I do not carry gas (but still carry petrol for the dingy outboard:o:))

[Bill Tomlinson]

On the topic of recharging... Shore power is a cheap and convenient way to replenish the batteries. Common for day-sailors, but it does not get you off the grid! Some of our installs use solar, and or small wind gens. All our systems re-generate from spinning the prop while sailing, which does you no good if becalmed, so the answer for our live aboard and distance cruisers has been a small honda 1 or 2KW genset. Depending on your boat size, that can keep you going at 3 to 4 knots until you get where you are going (or use up all your gasoline).
Electric powered systems seem to be most ideal where diesels are the worst-- a short ride away from the dock or mooring to set sails. Electric motors give you enhanced maneuvering and no worry about starting or properly warming an ICB engine. No maintenance either except for annually cleaning the battery hookups and greasing the reduction gear axles.

[masalai]

At 40 ft and 4.5 tonnes (super-lightweight for cruising) catamaran Torqeedo 4.0R comes close, upcoming developments may improve this, but still the key for me is battery weight and ability to accept 6000W during charge for a reasonable price...

The genset & electric motor weight is the same as an IC diesel option. the batteries demand triple that on top, just for a 1 hour run at full power to escape a storm...

[kistinie]

... the batteries demand triple that on top, just for a 1 hour run at full power to escape a storm...

In case of storm, you will always sail faster home than with any motor

Motor for me, is more and more an accessory, an always available safty help in heavy weather to tack without the risk of going backward, to get into a mooring or move slowly when wind is absent or up a river, to help with low torque to go closer to the wind, faster
So in my opinion, the real safety need is a lot of torque for short times, or low power for long times. These two cases are 99% of events you will meet.
Of course, in heavy weather with rigging or all sails destroyed, you will have the drawback of lack of power. This is the 1 % of events... No, much less i think.

A modern sailing boat does miracle compare to old designs
Unless you want to have a Mc Gregor style multihull, your boat will always be safer and faster with sails than with a motor

[masalai]

Except when the passage to shelter is dead upwind:D:D nicer to be sure than sorry later...

[kistinie]

Yes but in upwind, you have... wind. You sail the same upwind, just a little longer and less comfortable but it remains safe moving and electricity is not needed in huge quantity to help riding 15°-20° to the wind. 3 KW could be OK using sails and genset
20° to the wind is not acceptable ?

[apex1]

20° to the wind???:D

[wardd]

how about a genset and a motor without the controller junk

some wire, an on off/reverse switch fuses and needed gages

and a cpp

[kistinie]

Sail for hard reaching + motor, allows riding 20° to the wind.
This is called "hold jib" is france
Very good energy compromise for VMG needing just a light genset

The question of how to use hybrid is important too dear Richard

Remember old dicton: a tiger in the engine, a donkey at the wheel :-))

[gideon]

Yes but in upwind, you have... wind. You sail the same upwind, just a little longer and less comfortable but it remains safe moving and electricity is not needed in huge quantity to help riding 15°-20° to the wind. 3 KW could be OK using sails and genset
20° to the wind is not acceptable ?

15 to 20 degrees true or app. ????????? what type of boat have you got ?
If I do 30 degrees app. I am very happy .

Greetings

gideon

[kistinie]

sail alone 30°
Sail and motor 20°

You think different ?

[gideon]

For a very high performance monohull it is possible , for a high performance cat probably as well but with a high drift , I cruise comfortably at 35 % VMg is very good , at 30 degrees the drift is just to high and the speed to low to make any real progress.
greetings
Gideon

[apex1]

>>>Remember old dicton: a tiger in the engine, a donkey at the wheel :-))<<<

Thanks for reminding us who commands your boat!!!

15° to 20° ja, ja

[kistinie]

No wheel on Wingover, you are right one never knows who can come aboard.
20° App. of course, but u knew it.