Electric motors - Do they need to be so expensive [Archive]

Kaptin-Jer

03-28-2008, 06:26 PM

In a thread for hybrid engines I got sidetracked and asked about electric. I found that the Basic price to replace a 50 hp diesel is $8,770.00. Not counting the extra batteries and a few other things. (The Government should be giving them away!) An electric system is the right way to go on a sailboat because you are limited to hull speed. We need to start a forum on electric motors and see if some of our resident electrical experts can design a do it yourself system that us novices can put together with Radio Shack parts. I believe that this a project worth considering, or am I missing something in my naive enthusiasm.
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It is getting to that stage where new developments, products and "market prices" can be found at one point.
This parallels BATTERIES at
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sho...456#post193456
and hybrid power at
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=21860
Gensets...
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sho...525#post193525

Discussion...
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9310
Solomon Technologies...
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=676
Some reference sites
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpos...6&postcount=10

masalai

03-28-2008, 07:32 PM

Kaptin-Jer,Started adding links here http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=193533#post193533 and with effective cross links should make searching easier... Feel free to copy the links in my post #1 and copy to your post #1

Kaptin-Jer

03-28-2008, 08:53 PM

Great!
Thanks

kistinie

03-03-2009, 01:46 AM

hi

this kit can do for 10 hp to 30 hp equivalent when you use single or twin motor

Kit:
http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/sailboatkit.htm
1450$us

Single:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdEDZuvk7wE&feature=related
Dual:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd4EIU4QC5k&feature=related

By the way, i am looking for the parts do do this reduction, especially the big bearing receiving the propeller shaft (25mm in my case !)

If you use a high efficiency propeller, it will help

And do no expect as much HP as on a gas motor.
Often less HP is more than enough...If you sailing boat is able to go upwind easily. If it is not the case, i would keep a big diesel engine.

masalai

03-03-2009, 02:24 AM

kistinie, Thanks for the post the mars link can be found elsewhere as well - infortunately your youtube links do not link to any target? can you fix? Thanks....

Kaptin-Jer, I am looking at the Torqeedo legs http://www.torqeedoaustralia.com/Torqeedo_Australia/Home.html for Australia and there are links to other countries....

kistinie

03-03-2009, 02:51 AM

Hi Australia !
the trimaran i'm electrifing is a little part of your country...as it is a CROWTHER TWIGGY MKII lengthed to 37 feet

Torqueedo is fine techno, but no regen, not because it cannot but because it is not compatible with the lithium battery
Torqueedo told me they could upgrade this later...and may be in a pod version

Utube Links repaired !

PAR

03-03-2009, 02:54 AM

The problem with all electrics still remains storage capacity. The Torqeedo uses some nice technology, but costs more then gas for the same power and doesn't have much range.

I had a chance to use their little one, on a dinghy this summer and it pushed it to hull speed easily enough, but was dead in two hours. When used again, this time with reduced throttle, it was markedly slower and didn't really save much on battery time.

I've been waiting with bated breath for three decades now on the "next battery break through" that will revolutionize the industry. At least this is what everyone keeps asking, but it just isn't comming. We've had some recent advances, but damn for the cost of some of these systems, compared to what you get out of it, it's still waiting on "the next big break through" thing again.

Maybe it's just physics and we should be considering very small nuclear reactor driven devices instead. Buy it pre-fueled up, in a sealed container, let it run for 10 years or so, then trade it in for a new one. Oh hell did I just stir up the bee's nest? Look satellites have been using decaying isotope power cells for decades, why can't people get a head around the idea of this source of energy.

kistinie

03-03-2009, 03:11 AM

Low cost energy is impossible for the moment, even earthship houses are quite expensive to build.

For mobility, at 100 or even 145$, petrol is the less expensive energy available if you forget the total over all cost, rising litre after litre.
Electric cost is stable and do not cost much more each time you use it

My will to go electric on my boat is not for cost of petrol reason as i use less than 100 litres a years, but to gain, security, space, weight repartition, less noise, no odour, less maintenance, having a powerful hydro generator (easy on most multihull and in general on light boats) and as a blue boat not being obliged to go "hunting" for petrol during long trips gives you more freedom and in fact autonomy which is the aim.

All energies costs and are limited. Even sun is limited to 50% of a day. This being said, some solutions are worst than others

One anecdotal solution i use for my cars, truck and boat.
I get my batteries from scrapyard and desulfat them or hot air solder if the polyethylene is broken.
This works also for NiCAd.
This is not an easy job...but works fine. You just need to be careful with acids, and lead, cadmium, vapour, hydrogen gas, fire...
Battery life is extended, the earth and your wallet will both feel better, you can create jobs.
Ask for this regeneration/equalization function from power devices sources, solar chargers, generator/motor controller, industrial ad-on cost is a minor fraction of the gain you will make on battery's life.
in a more general way, we can improve massively the performance and longevity of our actual equipment. It is the simplest way to make then less expensive

But of course, batteries is THE problem, and the problem is impossible to solve if we stay on this actual principle of electric potential difference between different metals... as metals rarefaction such as Zinc, antimoine, or lithium will increase the difficulty and rise price just like for petrol.
Nuclear fission is 100 years, it is the past.
We need to discover something different.

Fundamental research is compulsory as we never know from where we will find the solution, important discovers are often side effects when looking for something else.
In this spirit, space research on dark energy is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy

As far as time is concerned, new big discover like fission was, could take 20 to K.years to find
So it is the reason why we should be more earth wealth, than penny-wise

And it is a fact that our actual energies are ALL based on a limited stock materials.

So the higher the price of this material is the longer it will last.
When you ask to pay less for these materials, you accelerate the extinction of theses materials.
The induced stress you create creates chaos, chaos is increasing discoveries and extinctions

When you ask to pay more for the material you slow down the extinction of the material.
You peaceful and slow down the system. If research is slowed down too, you slow your changes and evolution.
When research is increased, you improve your adaptation skills.

Now till the moment we find a solution...
The best thing is to have a light sailing boat that ...sails fine, motor is just comfort for a short time, a good energy source when not motoring.
This is the same for cars or bikes, they need to be light and aerodynamic
So forget about all not compulsory devices. Air conditioning, electric winches and other gadgets.
Energy saving is often sweat...and good for health.

Weight is a potential enemy for your health, in other's car, for your money, for the plane you will fly, and your boats too.
Weight is preferred outside a moving object,
If weight is inside the inertia is controlled and used an Kinetic energy resource.

Your best energy is the one you do not need.

Guest625101138

03-03-2009, 06:40 AM

......... We need to start a forum on electric motors and see if some of our resident electrical experts can design a do it yourself system that us novices can put together with Radio Shack parts. I believe that this a project worth considering, or am I missing something in my naive enthusiasm.
.......

There is a reasonable solution using current technology. There is a price break point around 5kW. Above this level you are into serious engineering. Below this level you are in the low end EV market. The motor and controller comes in around USD700:
http://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/
Mars motor with 200A Kelly controller on 48V system will peak at 9kW and continuous at 4kW.

You then need to look at a hull. Trimaran gives the best solution but it only needs to be a trimaran below the water per the rough lineplan attached. This design will achieve 8kts with 1050W. Rated power of 4.5kW will achieve over 12kts.

Then the boat needs to be built light. Would most likely be carbon fibre over corecell. Total bare hull weight 400 to 500kg.

You could use lithium batteries to keep weight down but 10kWh of VRLA batteries are acceptable, much cheaper and will provide adequate ballast:
http://www.cloudelectric.com/product_p/ba-mk-8g30h.htm
Need 8 of these or similar.

You would need 5 of these as the low weight alternative battery but lots more expensive:
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=4403

The prop design is the critical element. Needs to be designed for high efficiency and high thrust. This is the key aspect to get the best from the limited power. 20 x 20 prop for plenty of grip. Will achieve 85% efficiency at 8kts and bollard pull of 1.4kN with 9kW peak power.

Now you add solar panels something like these:
http://www.energymatters.com.au/sunpower-230watts-grid-connect-solar-module-p-931.html
Four of these will give you reasonable energy in sunny areas. Having the solar cells re-encapsulated in a light weight panel is also feasible. Ends up about 1/3rd of the weight.

The solar collection could be supplemented with wind energy:
http://www.zephyreco.co.jp/en/products/product/air-dolphin/specification.html
Something like this mounted on the cabin top would be able to generate on the move or at anchor.

Overall the objective is to maintain steady speed of 8kts while keeping the batteries near full charge. Boat will have least drain when weather is calm. Range without any energy collection would be around 70Nm at 8kts and 110Nm at 6kts. Range is only limited by the ability to carry food as some sort of energy collection will always be possible.

So right now it is technically possible and not horrendously expensive if the whole boat is purpose designed. In the long run lithium batteries will get more price competitive. I think this technology will explode as electric cars become common place. Then larger motors and controllers will be much cheaper.

My next car will be all electric or hybrid electric. I am working on the electric boat.

Rick W

kistinie

03-03-2009, 07:47 AM

Great ideas !

And for peace of mind.
Two smaller rather than one bigger
Also certainly i will make my installation full redundant with two (energy sources/engines/controller/batteries) group, belt or chain connected to one shaft, one rotation able sail drive, two shafts or two pods.

Two propeller on each side of rotation centre of the ship will give you a very high mobility.
And the chance to loose all your propulsion and energy system for material failure is dramatically reduced.

kistinie

03-03-2009, 08:39 AM

Guest625101138

03-03-2009, 02:10 PM

You are right about the wind energy.

But with such a size (1.8 meters), on less than 60 meters boats, great care should be taken to the effect on the boat balance and behaviour in extreme wind above 60 knts. Foldable wings on the wind generator, would be an efficient safty modification to do

I have a second Mars motor and controller to be used for the wind generator. I intend to use a 2-bladed turbine with high aspect blades. When stalled it will have very little windage. The controllers I have are 4-quadrant so can be used to generate or motor. The wind generator could be used for propulsion if required.

My intention is for a single motor drive as it provides adequate power. THe wind generator is the emergency back up.

Rick W

masalai

03-03-2009, 04:35 PM

Rick, your project is becoming more and more sophisticated every time I review your work - would be nice to meet on the water as I hope to be mobile in about a year from begining April 2009...

Thanks Rick & kistinie...

mydauphin

03-03-2009, 08:57 PM

Guest625101138

03-03-2009, 09:25 PM

I don't like electric boats. As anyone that has been on a boat will tell you, bettween corrosion, electrolysis, the constant banging of the boat, salt water splashing, water leaks and the general theory of Murphy's Law. Water and electricity don't mix.

I have Mechanically inject diesels that will run underwater as long as they have air intake, and fuel. Even the starters are air powered and can run underwater.

When the water hits the fan, what boat do want to be on - Your electronic wonderland or a boat that will function with water rising in the bilge and get you home.

Must be a primitive boat if you have no electrics. I guess you use a sextant for navigation - maybe you do not go far offshore. You also need a good time piece for navigation so I suppose you have a wind up clock - no crappy battery or solar powered stuff for you.

I imagine you only use kero lamps for the nav lights but I expect a bit of a pain to get going when it is windy.

You no doubt tolerate the poor efficiency of the diesel given it has no electronic fuel management.

Look at all those deluded fools that make spark ignition outboards. Pity there is no market for these as all the sane people only buy diesel outboards with air starters. Never ever would sane people consider electrics on a boat!!!!!!

Rick W.

sigurd

03-03-2009, 11:20 PM

electrics can be sealed.
there has been a lot of development in the big RC brushless motors the last years. you can get a plettenberg 17kw under 2-3kg if I remember correctly. The torqeedo is a torcman.de motor. There are slow, big power, light motors coming for the paraglider market. Naturally with 2000rpm at 11kw it is a bit larger than the plettenberg I mentioned.
The big controllers are far apart and expensive. DIY variants has been developed in the RC and EV crowd.

mydauphin

03-04-2009, 06:54 AM

Actually, I have three fully redundant electrical systems. Two monitoring systems and several computers. It is a big boat and I need the help navigating and just seeing which of 5 tanks, 6 bilge areas or three battery banks need attention. I also have 4 solar panels in two separate banks. But that said. My engines, steering, throttles, and all emergency system can operate manually or mechanically.

Guest625101138

03-04-2009, 02:31 PM

mydauphin

03-04-2009, 03:27 PM

Guest625101138

03-04-2009, 04:11 PM

Simple. I don't think that hybrid technologies are yet at the level of performance, price or reliablity to be used in most marine applications.
Just because people sell it doesn't make worth while. Torpedo Electric outboard is a perfect example. I can buy 3 outboards for the price of one electric and get better performance. Sure I have to pay for gas and some maintenance but over the next 5 years a gas outboard is more reliable and I am ahead enough to buy another one, all the fuel and everything else. What is life span of Torpedo battery and its cost?

The forum is about boat design. Boat design needs a practical edge but it also needs to be looking to the future and the forces shaping the future. Electric power will be the motive force of the future and is already practical at certain levels such as auxiliary for sailing boats.

Lithium batteries, electronic controllers and PM electric motors have already made IC motors obsolete for model planes. The electric systems provide twice the power to weight and cost about 1/2 of the IC motor for the same power. This technology is just starting to filter into larger applications.

There are only a few electric outboards around right now but as more brands get into the market you will see prices drop. An electric outboard can be made with one moving part and a set of bearings. The only items manufactured to tight fit tolerance are the bearings and housings. Compare that to what is required to produced an IC outboard.

The Lithium batteries have only been in the pipeline for about 10 years. As they become highly developed the performance will improve and the price will come down with higher volumes.

As far as durability goes, the most arduous application I have ever come across is a submerged sewerage pump. Would hate to place an IC engine in that environment. Electric motors in these applications last for decades. Simply a matter of designing for the application. Electric motors work at design efficiency unless they are stopped. IC engines deteriorate from the first day they are operated and performance degrades until they are overhauled.

You can be content with your noisy, smelly, polluting outboard but others, me included, want to dabble in the future; not to be driven solely be current economic sense. In any event within 10 to 20 years I can see legislation prohibiting use of liquid hydrocarbons for non-commercial applications or taxes that make its use prohibitive.

Rick W

masalai

03-04-2009, 04:29 PM

or appropriate fuel prices as a consequence of scarcity (depletion of a finite resource).... Once USA and many other developed countries go belly up in a major depression the stupidity of manipulating various commodities and currency values will force a significant change of attitude.... the $140 / barrel price of crude will seem like a gift in about 5 years time....

mydauphin

03-04-2009, 09:15 PM

Rick,
My point is that, on a boat safety is number one and that means getting home.
As far as lithium batteries, they are not economical or practical or sustain use. Case in point, I am marine contractor, when we build a dock, if we used the best most expensive li-battery screwdriver for 45 minutes the battery is dead. It would take like nine batteries to do what a $50 regular drill does very easily and well. Why am I going to spend $300 and go through all kinds of aggravation if a $50 tool does the same or better.

Electric motors have been used in boats for nearly a century, their advantages and disadvantages are well known. The navies of world with almost basically unlimited budget have done a lot research. You have basically two systems that work. Nuclear power driving a turbine generator, producing electricity and using super excessive electric power to drive electric motors. Or using a series of diesel/turbine generators to drive electric motors.

Both these system require lots of money, lots of space, engineering, and knowledgable personnel to operate. They also breakdown and it would not be the first time they got towed.

KISS is the king of sea, these electrical system require, generators, power controllers, cooling and multiple system to maintain. They still suffer from rules of physics.

If you get a 100kw diesel, install a transmission driving a shaft, you might get 90kw to prop.
If you used a 90kw electric motor to drive shaft then you need 100kw generator . The 10k is lost in controller, heat, restistance etc.. Guess what the 100kw generator is 160kw diesel that consumes more fuel and polutes more that original 100hp diesel.

Oh by way, my old diesels are old. Over 10,000 hours, been rebuilt twice for the heck of it and run better today than new thanks to upgrades. They also pollute less thanks to cleaner fuels, Fuel/Air sep filters and better tuning.

Oh and if the United Socialist State of America persists in telling boaters and everyone else what they can and can't do. They and I will move to a less sociallist country like China, France, Canada. You can stay in USA by yourself on your electric motor boat that each motor cost $1,000 per hp. I will be somewhere else burning diesel at alarming rates, enjoying 600hp, spending a lot less money and enjoying myself traveling the world.

Guest625101138

03-04-2009, 10:44 PM

You would expect someone so taken with all things internal combustion would not be bothered with electric tools. Why not use an IC powered drill? The advantage of the battery powered tool is the avoidance of dragging around an electric cable.

Navies use electric drive because of their efficiency, simplicity and overall operating economy. The same reason large earth bound traction machines use electric transmission.

Compare the number of moving parts in any internal combustion engine and transmission with an electric motor. The IC is intricate with tight tolerances all subject to wear.

The shortage of oil is a fact of life. Anyone using it wastefully will be a social outcast. Good luck going to China, Canada and elsewhere to get low cost fuel. USA, the middle east and other OPEC countries are the few that don't already levy significant taxes on fuel. I have attached some numbers from Europe. To save you doing the sums it currently works out around USD5.30/USG.

Oil was the trigger for the current financial problems and its availability will continue to limit the ability of economies to recover. Governments have to encourage alternatives otherwise there will be serious problems. Right now there will be a huge number of oil projects being shelved. This does not bode well for the next boom/bust cycle.

I look at brand new IC cars as being close to scrap. They are already heading toward obsolescence before they get off the assembly line. All car makers are hurting right now but the product lines with growth are electric hybrids and those with greatest growth potential are battery electric. The underlying technology will filter into boating applications and the boats will adapt to make the best of the technology.

A solar powered boat with infinite range is already technically viable. Sailing boats already circle the globe faster than IC powered craft. Many forces are working to make IC powered pleasure boats obsolete. My preference is to look forward rather than stick resolutely to the past.

Rick

mydauphin

03-05-2009, 06:50 AM

Let me go point by point. Every energy form has its best use, advantages and disadvantages. Electric, gas, diesel, coal, nuclear, Solar, wind and others have their place it is very hard to replace one with another.

One of the main uses of electric motors in ships is because of silences during operations i.e. submarines. Other are used because it is hard to throttle a steam turbine driven by a nuclear generator to steer a ship. You just go forward, reverse, idle on a steam or regular turbine. Another perfect example is locomotive that has diesel electric powerplant, need a variable throttle and those big engines run on constant speed.

But notice the key word diesel electric, something needs to generate the electricity. Power is lost in transmission, heat, adjusting power levels. There is no such thing as pure electric anything. There is a power source, your ultimate efficiency is that of power producer.

Then lets talk power. Lets say I have a 50 foot boat, not a very powerful boat with only two 300hp diesel engines. Usually boats this size have at least 450hp each. Then lets say I have 600 gallon fuel tank. On this boat, it should have a range of about 400 miles at about 20knots. Do that with batteries

You need this power to tackle the seas. To break through the waves, current, against the wind. It sounds to me like you have never really been on a boat, on a not so shining day, outside the protected bay.

A solar boat may have infinite power, but if you got top full of solar panels, of a 50' boat by lets say 20'. How many kilowatts of power could you develop. Perhaps 10, 20 lets say even 100kw that converted to the give you about 100hp. I am being very generous here with effiency. That is not enough to push a 50 foot boat not much beyond idle. For that give me sails, it will be faster.

Electric boat people talk about 10kw, 15 kw maybe 40kw at max... Please my tender has 50kw... Get real and the engine only weight 200lbs complete.

Now let's look at cars. The best hybrid out there gets good gas mileage but the same can be gotten by properly designed gas or diesel car. There is a couple of small diesel cars, Volkswagen I believe, that get 60mpg My wifes Honda Fit get 50mpg on the highway, only cost $15,000, and I dont have to throw out a **** load of batteries every few years to pollute the environment. By the way the only crappy cars are the one being made by US auto companies under pressure from the government. Mercedes, Bmw, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, Honda, and many others make really fine cars. Amazingly they are not going bankrupt.

As far as government is concern, look at todays headline,"Venezuela's Hugo Chavez tightens state control of food amid rocketing inflation and food shortages" Venezuela once one of the riches country per capita in the world is now one of the poorest via government controls, and socialism.
Or look at California the most progressive state in the USA, also the most broke. Why is that? Unfortunately reality and dreaming are two different things. That applies to government and electric boats.

One final note: Electrics have their place, may be one day when we all have personal nuclear powerplants do they have the power to propel boat, yachts and ships properly. Until then we are dependant on diesel or gas main power. And solar power, wind generators are used to charge batteries for electronics and may be some refrigeration.

Oh and by the way, I am a Electrical Engineer by schooling and a boat builder by hobby. I have been a boater since I was 12, built countless boats. And have enjoy boating, freedom and the free markets very well thank you. I am also a envirnomentalist by nature, or a naturalist by nature. Believe in recycling, conservation and using latest technology.... But only if it make sense... not propaganda or wishful thinking

kistinie

03-05-2009, 08:35 AM

Full Solar and wind propulsion with or without sails is a viable
Light electric boat concept is realistic, actual prototypes are impressive.
Multihulls are made to receive this technology

Production should be helped, and motivated.

We must turn to lighter and simpler boat with less gadgets.
The times of heavy things is over,

We need light boat with low needs.
Do it like you want as long as it is light, universal and efficient.

Free energy is the one you do not need

marshmat

03-05-2009, 12:15 PM

Wow. I wasn't expecting this thread to become so politically charged.

I must admit, I too am rather mystified by how expensive electric drive systems are. Having worked on several solar cars, using some of the most efficient electric drive systems ever built (we had a motor rated for 97.6%), I think the main reason for the high costs comes down to economics and marketing.

Look at the standard marine gas engines- the 4.3 V6, 5.0 V8, etc. The basic engineering of these things is decades old. They have been used in numerous applications- boats, cars, trucks, stationary generation- with only minor modifications.

Now, looking at electric motors: The big guys- GE, Westinghouse and the like- design and build semi-custom stuff, at significant expense, for industrial clients. There's a significant market for stock industrial motors in the few-kilowatts range, but they all have severe restrictions: most require some particular type of 3-phase supply, or are restricted to single-speed operation, or need an elaborate VFD controller. Few of these industrial motors are suitable for vehicle applications, so electric car and bike hobbyists have to resort to smaller manufacturers, who may or may not be reliable, and may or may not believe in compatibility with other suppliers. The engineering costs are spread out over relatively few units, so the unit price goes up and less money is available for engineering.

I think there would be a good market for a range of motor/generators in the 5-50 kW range, that are simple, require only a very basic controller (none of this frequency-varying synchronous stuff), and can be configured for a decent variety of DC or AC supply voltages. Alas, I have yet to find any such product line at a reasonable price, that is widely available.

Guest625101138

03-05-2009, 02:38 PM

......

Then lets talk power. Lets say I have a 50 foot boat, not a very powerful boat with only two 300hp diesel engines. Usually boats this size have at least 450hp each. Then lets say I have 600 gallon fuel tank. On this boat, it should have a range of about 400 miles at about 20knots. Do that with batteries

You need this power to tackle the seas. To break through the waves, current, against the wind. It sounds to me like you have never really been on a boat, on a not so shining day, outside the protected bay.

A solar boat may have infinite power, but if you got top full of solar panels, of a 50' boat by lets say 20'. How many kilowatts of power could you develop. Perhaps 10, 20 lets say even 100kw that converted to the give you about 100hp. I am being very generous here with effiency. That is not enough to push a 50 foot boat not much beyond idle. For that give me sails, it will be faster.

Electric boat people talk about 10kw, 15 kw maybe 40kw at max... Please my tender has 50kw... Get real and the engine only weight 200lbs complete.

...

You need to go back to your text books and work out the difference between power and thrust. If you are what you say by education you should know this.

10kW on the right prop can produce plenty of thrust to move a seaworthy craft against the severest conditions.

You do not seem to grasp the simple fact that oil resources are rapidly diminishing. Untethered use of this resource will place even greater pressure on the world economy. This resource cannot be used wastefully until alternatives are established.

You have moved way off topic trying to justify a dumb stance on not using electric propulsion. The question was about the expense of electric. The short answer is that it is not expensive if the whole system is scaled down to what is made for mass consumption. Until we see mass market production of higher powered electric devices we are stuck with paying industrial prices for robust higher powered units.

Rick W

mydauphin

03-05-2009, 03:42 PM

Guest625101138

03-05-2009, 04:18 PM

Rick, I trying to explain that the ocean, sea, or even bay doesn't care about your arguements against oil. The sea water, ever present moisture, salt air, waves poundings will in a shorrt time destroy your batteries, and your boat if you do not have the horsepower to get out of a storm front. Have you ever been on a boat at sea or even a bay. 10kw wont even move a 14' boston whaler properly. Get real - Go buy a boat, go out 20 miles, listen to the radio, have a couple of cool beers, fish a little, trolling prefered then come back in a few hours at 20 knots. When you can do that in a electric boat I am all for it. Otherwise the PERFORMANCE is not there. Otherwise you have a electric paddle boat or canoe... Not a boat.

I realised a long time ago that my boating was for relaxation. It takes time and needs to be savoured. I am long past pounding my guts out belting across waves at 20 to 30kts. I did that as kid and wasted far more than my fair share of oil. Have caught fish until I got sick of catching fish in the best fishing waters in the world. I am past all that.

You cannot relax in the way I want to relax if you do not have time. If I can do 8kts safely and efficiently then I will be happy and relaxed. The boat I described earlier will do that speed in calm conditions with 1.05kW. It will have 9 times that power if required. It will have a bollard pull of 1.4kN. It will be seaworthy - unsinkable if completely swamped, self-righting. It will be easily managed by one person and beachable. It will be trailerable and can be stored on land. It will suit one or two people for extended cruising.

Again I must point out that power and thrust are very different things.

Most boats, even yours apparently, rely on batteries. To say they cannot stand up to the conditions is nonsense. They can be made reliable and long lasting. Battery technology is advancing rapidly right now. No reason why they cannot last a lifetime. I currently have a couple of Ni-Cd batteries I have used continuously in various applications since I purchased them in 1986 - they must have been well made.

Rick W

kistinie

03-06-2009, 06:21 AM

Thanks rick for telling true facts
Demonstrating it works will make things change.

For information my actual electric project is "sail/electricity hybrid", no oil exept an old 3.5HP outbord and a 48V DC group if space and money for , electricity will be IP68 inside hull up to 1 meter high minimum.
UFO can come and do holes in hull, motor and boat still sail and drive
Price of such device will be under a fuel motor installation cost.
24 to 48 volts - 150 amp/h - 5 Kw brushed or brusless motor, both are reversible
Maintenance close to zero
Weight inferior to the fuel option
Electric autonomy far better than fuel option, as 100% paid when you sail and camp.

I'm sure you will love it
I keep you informed of the results when done and tested !
And as use to say my grandfather "do not discuss with a wheelbarrow, push it"

Solar and wind boat users accept that their performance during a travel depend on weather.
They will run slow when low sun and low wind, and fine rest of the time.
This for at least 25 years, with low maintenance and no carbon as they are simple boats

This is a difficult technical point
to listen at when you have to much oil in the ears...
We could try with more volume to be heard ?
Volume of Ev boats that cruise...

kistinie

03-06-2009, 06:55 AM

Wow. I wasn't expecting this thread to become so politically charged.

.

Yes politics means life of the city.
In our water city, acting for technical choices is a political act.
When you say, no way, i do not use petrol, your technical choice is political act.
You like it or not, this is just a fact.

First by the "auto-profethising" effect you stimulate your wills, innovations and changes
Second when an EV boat works, oil saved can be used for more valuable use such as composites, aramide and carbon
This changes economy.

Doing an electric boat is political

-----------------------------------

Think global - Act local. Jacques ELLUL

ASM

03-06-2009, 07:01 AM

mydauphin

03-06-2009, 07:12 AM

Doing an electric boat is political

Not practical for most uses.

I will prove it. I will pick a cheap little boat. Design a boat that matchs its performance- "that can be built". I will give you a million dollars...So will a lot of people.

The boat http://www.carolinaskiff.com/listman/listings/l0075.html

Check out weight, draft, size, speed, range, reliability and finally cost.
I will bet your boat will be far heavier, far slower, far shorter range and a general pain to use. And on top of that your boat will be 3 times more expensive to build and require more resource to build it.

Finally, if we are going to the apocalypse in the world economy, and headed to a Waterworld/Madmax scenario....Do you really want to outrun the pirates in a electric boat .... Your are going to be troiling for your life....

Lastly, all in good humor, I hope you don't take personal offense. My only goal is help people understand the practical truth about boating. So people don't get hurt by thinking their electric boat is going to travel to the middle of the Gulf and they all end up in the bottom of the sea.

kistinie

03-06-2009, 07:31 AM

Electric pirates ?
What a thrill !
I love this ! Well found ! Kids will love electric pirates histories !
Except that pirates use unsinkable multihulls,
so happily, only fire can send then to the bottom of the sea.
I bet pirates win !

Chaos is not coming from electric boats but clues point in direction of big glass buildings

And also i think pirate could be a mistake

They are not pirates, but corsairs of her majesty !
Their Queen is the earth and human is King !

I love corsairs, nice good French boats to learn safely sailing to girls during summer.

I will keep you informed of the cost and the performance of my project when finished. We will see what will be the numbers till then, it is just speculation :-)

Tank's participating, your ideas are welcome, no problemo with me !
Fuel hybrid boats have applications for sure, but should be a second choice for urgent cases, common transport should avoid fuel and prefer this to speed.
Motor cat you show is nice, but When i read 1 liter per nautic mille ! What an appetite, 100 nM = 100 litres ! Huge result !
As by the end of the month i have to go to la grand motte, from southampton i need...1200 liters, my god i have to get new tanks !
We could do better i think...but not that fast, i agree. But this could change in a very few years
Of course if you take the time you loose refiling and time lost working to get the extra money, i'm sure a good donkey could ride faster :-)
Total over all cost is what you put inside !

Guest625101138

03-06-2009, 10:09 AM

Rick

Good to see you took the faux trimaran a little further, its nice to see my idea gets used for the purpose I would have liked to use it (if I had time and money). Are you building it at the moment ?

As for the electric vs. petrol....... I see mydauphin comes from the US and in particular Florida.... STOP burning all our fuel and buy a sophiticated boat, one that is designed for normal fuel consumption and not one that pushes water with as much power as possible, its the old phrase again, no substitute for cubic inches.... that is why US brand cars are 10 years behind the Europeans... and see where it gets you when there is a crisis.

Do not compare apples with pears, a fast planing petrol boat can not be converted into an electric version, true. Once you use a dedicated hull design, electric is an option and wil become THE option in the near future.

And you want to go sea worthy at 20 knots ? Look at this one:

http://www.prowler.co.nz/specification-and-layout.htm

2 x 60 Hp petrol outboards, so that's ~43 kW, BUT efficiency of electric engines is much higher, so my guess would be 20 kW motors (?).

Please......

ASM
You are still around.

The faux tri played on my mind so much that I ended up seeing what would be possible. It is far superior to a monohull and the monohull has marginal initial stability. It also offers much more sensible accommodation. It has been a complete change of tack and I have not gone beyond the power calculations and some basic layout. My weight target has not been confirmed by the NA yet.

I am in somewhat of a go-slow mode conserving cash to make sure I do not have to liquidate assets at reduced prices. I can ride it out for two or three years even without work if I do not spend much. At the moment I am still employed through the good graces of the US tax payers.

I have been heavily committed to pedal boats over the last twelve months and want to do this till the end of the year. I have all the materials for a very light weight CF hull and already have new CF frame and CF outriggers. There is a fellow here who wants to better the world record set on my V11 design in Montana last year. He will use my boat:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/27845d1230111804-pedal-powered-boats-pc240005.jpg

I also want to build and test a wind turbine and play with some decent solar panels before I start the hull for the Solar-Wind boat.

There are some nice developments with lithium batteries that I am also following. I have actually seen the linked batteries in the flesh and would love to have a dozen of the cells to play with:
http://lithiumenergy.jp/en/products/index.html
Twelve would give me enough for serious trials and ultimately a full set of 48. Total weight just 80Kg so about 1/3rd the weight of VRLA for same energy and far higher power capability as well as cycle life.

My next step for the faux tri will be a decent model maybe later this year to look at the proportions and get a feel for any odd characteristics. I expect the model will be around 1/7th scale.

Rick W

kistinie

03-06-2009, 12:36 PM

Agree again !
Seems realistic to me

Lets make our boat, any scale, this will give the answers !

sigurd

03-06-2009, 06:04 PM

What is it about these lithium batteries, Rick? 18650 are lighter. Do they last? Are they cheap? Do you have a data sheet?

Guest625101138

03-06-2009, 06:53 PM

What is it about these lithium batteries, Rick? 18650 are lighter. Do they last? Are they cheap? Do you have a data sheet?

The LEV50 batteries are rated at 50A and 3.7V. I expect you could easily pull 250A from them but I do not have the power data. They are being used in the Mitsubishi MiEV and are made by Lithium Energy Japan, a joint venture with Yuasa.

The main features over the 18650 cells is that they have much higher energy capacity and use bolted connections. You would only need 12 of these cells to make a battery capable of 10kW and I expect it would delivery that power efficiently. The weight would only be 20kg. The batteries could be joined with copper bus bar. THis is a far better solution than stacks of tiny cells.

You would expect they will be reliable as they are being produced for mass market use. Although I cannot verify this. As far as I know they are not commercially available yet. It could be Yuasa cannot produce enough to meet the demand for Mitsubishi. Mitsubishi are pushing this vehicle hard and I can see a lot of people considering it:
http://www.promo.com.au/mitsubishi/MIZ1043/media/Mitsubishi%20i%20MiEV,%20the%20future%20is%20here%20now.pdf
The advantage of being able to plug into the home socket is a big feature for many like me.

The vehicle is not what I consider pretty but it seems to be the first realistic full electric.

Toyota and Honda are pushing hybrid hard but there is a place for small all electric like the MiEV. The new Honda insight is a sleek looking car and I think will get a lot of attention:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4g50xZhNmmU

I will look closely at the Prius and Honda models for my next car but the idea of never having to visit a petrol station again is appealing. There are issues though because puting my 7.2m long pedal boat on the roof of a 3.5m long MiEV might get some attention. My wife would never let me put the boat on top of her car and I do not like the idea of keeping another car just to carry a boat now and then. I also found out that Prius do not sell a tow pack here and I expect the MiEV to be the same. I did not ask Honda.

Rick W

sigurd

03-06-2009, 07:37 PM

Some chemistries are explosive.
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=1437

Guest625101138

03-06-2009, 08:25 PM

Some chemistries are explosive.
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=1437

Yes I know this. Lithium is the most reactive metal and hence the reason for such high power density.

I regularly visit the site you linked to but I am not certain about reliability of the batteries being produced so far. There are some bad reports.

Yuasa is highly respected and I expect that they will gear up to produce top quality. However if it is not available or simple way more expensive then I will try something else.

With my initial design I had settled on VRLA but the lithium technology is advancing so quickly that it needs careful monitoring.

I would like to buy something like a 40V 10Ah, 10C lithium battery for serious testing of my Mars motor but they are a bit too expensive for just a trial. Right now I play with two 12V 10Ah VRLA batteries but they power limit around 200W on the 18V controller low voltage limit so not much use for serious testing of my 4.5kW motor. Did you ever see the test video of my Mars motor:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/20726d1209288392-electric-boat-data-drive_leg_test1.wmv
It is reasonable when you consider I am only getting 200W from the batteries. I could do some impressive speeds on this tubular cat with 4.5kW.

Rick W

kistinie

03-07-2009, 02:30 AM

Any Batteries and open and non dual shielded cable or equipement should be in a strong close box only
To be IP68 protected from water you need to be abble to protect your battery from immertion in water !
This is not impossible but in real condition, in a moving boat, in gale or just moved by wave pressure and destruction force will be very high !

BOX fitted with
a permanent air exhaust valve or a fuse valve zone with less resistance that will break first in a safe controlled direction, can be done by a spring loaded valve.
The aim is to let out correctly, where we want, regular and accidental gas.

Of course also, never mix sparks generators, such as mechanical switches and batteries... in the same box ! Especially for lead batteries producing hydrogen in large quantity that would be much greater if used to run the fuel generator that can be a very small size hydrogen motor starting when there is enough hydrogen, giving a few amps more :-) Lead battery could become more efficient this way ?

Even the best quality battery can fail, from then...do we have the choice
Only fire can sink a light boat. Amp and Amp/h is potential fire
an automatic fire extinguisher covering heated zones is a compulsory choice i guess ?

doing only this i bet risk get very low with any battery

Rigid luggages are great boxes that cost few €/$/£; second hand or even new ...
They can be strongly closed, secured with aramide fibers links, tight and epoxy glued. Mini 6.5 racer do that way for years for everything to secure or link aboard. Inexpensive solution

But this far from propellers...

Regards

François

sigurd

03-07-2009, 09:22 AM

With the bell, the batteries would get wet when boat is upturned?

kistinie

03-07-2009, 09:58 AM

With the bell, the batteries would get wet when boat is upturned?

upturned yes

That is right, you lose batteries
But you also have lost your boat

... my study case is a multihull...

Upturned you do not need motor :-), just radios

Keep in a bag a survival 12v kit
IP68 diving small lipo 12 V battery,
a IP68 solar panel,

just to feed IP68 VHF and GPS or diving computer
you may drink piss before loosing your GPS and radio

Do not to forget ...enough good drinking water
that is all u need

So to stay on the question of price
The conclusion seems to be :

IP68 propulsion and IP68 energy storage under the form of batteries.
offer reduced cost and hight reliability

Installation is less expensive and simpler for a multihull

Love multihulls...

kistinie

03-07-2009, 10:24 AM

End of transmission, i go sailing for a while
Thank's !

François BOUQUIN

apex1

03-07-2009, 07:50 PM

Gaawd, we´re happy................... circumnavigate!

.

.

twice

kistinie

03-08-2009, 03:39 AM

Gaawd, we´re happy................... circumnavigate!
twice

No ...My insurer ask me too much money for this and girl friend vote against the project. But it may change ...

Just some work in London and then in Southampton before going to "la cote d'Azur", not a long trip with a fast racing multihull.
Uncomfortable, yes, as we have nothing aboard even toilets, but efficiency is here with a 18m mast 2 tons/40 feet boat... till weather decides you stay where you are. That is sailing,
I happily accept the idea to have a master, a weather master.

And by the end, 2 or 10 litres of fuel burnt to do the trip for 3 friends

With the 5 Kw motor and 48V batteries it will be zero litre

In 15 century, Italians to say zero, used to say ZEFIRO (coming from arab word "as-sifr" meaning empty)

Isn't it fun ?

Have a Good day Richard !

Cheers

François