Batteries and New Battery Technologies

[brian eiland]

I was recently researching for information on a rumored hot new battery product, and in doing so I looked thru the offerings on several of the boat related forums. I was somewhat disappointed in the scope of the information I found on these boating forums, and the fact that much of the information was so scattered thruout the forums. This has prompted me to start this new subject thread devoted to the subject of the BATTERY, both existing ones and new technologies, as we require in the marine industry.

I must admit there was another impetus for my starting this new thread, a really excellent article in the recent Feb/March '08 issue of Professional Boatbuilder by Nigel Calder. The article is entitled "Breakthrough" and should be available at the ProBoat website (http://www.proboat.com/) by clicking 'view digital issues' (http://www.proboat.com/digital_issues.html), then Feb/Mar, and use the navagation arrows at the top of the page to go to the table of contents find 'Breakthrough', then click it.

You won't regret it

He is always so comprehensive in his contributions to electrical subjects, as you might already be aware of from his series of articles on a related subject matter, Diesel-Electric Propulsion.

I might suggest that as we add a specific new battery discussion to this thread, either thru cross-references to other discussions already posted on this forum, or from outside sources, that you 'title' the posting with the battery type discussed, ie, Li-Ion, lead acid, etc…..(just a suggestion).

[masalai]

Thank you brian, a most interesting read... I hope it leads to the significant improvements as outlined by Nigel Calder in that article... a shorter route - go here :- http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20080203/ then click on "contents" in the bar at the top & then "Breakthrough" in the index for the first page.... All good news to look forward to... Praise and points be yours.

[brian eiland]

...from another forum



...found on a Asia B2B website in Tiawan a company that made Li-Ion batteries in any size you wanted.

Be careful, not all Li-Ion batteries are the same.

...from Altairnano website (http://www.altairnano.com/markets_energy_systems.html)
New anode material
The principal advance that Altairnano has made is in the optimization of nano-structured lithium titanate spinel oxide (LTO) electrode materials that replace the graphite electrode materials found in negative electrodes of current Li-Ion batteries. So far these have been combined with positive electrodes from common lithium ion batteries.


Faster recharging and discharging
An electrode made with nanomaterials does not react with the electrolytes used in most lithium ion systems. No reaction means that no Solid Electrolyte Interphase (SEI) barrier is formed around the electrode, making it easier for lithium ions to reach the surface of the electrode. And, with a nano-structured component, there’s more surface area available to the ions—up to 100 times more surface area than with conventional, graphite electrodes.

The nanomaterials facilitate access to the active sites required for battery operation. What’s more, the small size of the materials dramatically reduces the distance from the surface to the sites—all of which helps accelerate recharging and discharging.


Longer battery life
The mechanical stress and strain caused by ions entering and exiting electrodes reduces the life of a battery. We offer zero-strain materials that change little with ion movement, enhancing battery calendar and cycle life.


Operation in extreme temperature conditions
If a battery has a SEI barrier, it can’t be charged at temperatures below 32° Fahrenheit. The pores in the barrier close, eliminating access to the active sites. An electrode with our nanomaterials will not form a SEI barrier, allowing it to safely operate down to -30°C. Even at this low temperature nearly 90% of room temperature charge retention is realized from Altairnano’s nano lithium titanium oxide cells at 2C rates. Traditional Li-Ion technology possesses virtually no charging capabilities at this low temperature.

High operating temperature tests on Altairnano based cells have been conducted at 65°C where we have demonstrated 9C 90% charge retention.


Ultra-safe characteristics
Altairnano has performed “hot box” exercises on our batteries at temperatures up to 240°C — which is more than 100°C above the temperature at which graphite-based batteries can explode — with zero explosions or safety concerns. In addition, we’ve performed high-rate overcharge, puncture, crush, drop and other comparative tests alongside a wide range of graphite-based battery cells with, again, no malfunctions, explosions or safety concerns exhibited by the nano-structured Altairnano nLTO cells. In comparison, the graphite cells, put to the same tests, routinely smoked, caught fire and exploded

[Pericles]

Brian,

Here are the batteries that Nigel Calder is thinking to use.

http://www.hawker-odyssey.co.uk/batt-index.html

Here are the Lithium Phosphate batteries that Gideon Goudsmit at http://www.africancats.com/ has suggested I should use for a battery powered Thames cruiser.

http://www.valence.com/products/epoch_overview.html

Thames cruiser discussion at Bateau.com

http://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php?t=14669&highlight=pericles

For a Diesel Electric vessel, use Thoosa 17000 motors bolted directly to saildrives fitted with Autoprops.

http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/pdfs/Asmo_Marine_THOOSA_17000.pdf

http://www.sillette.co.uk/elect_saildrives.pdf

http://www.autoprop.com/autoprop/international/video.html

Hope these help.

Perry

[masalai]

Thanks Pericles, a nice discussion on your thread there - bookmarked for future reference - I seem to be "swimming" in a similar direction re power - but in the tropics ONLY - can't tolerate cold... :D

[Kaptin-Jer]

Very informative posts. Is there a way we can consolidate the threads on Electric power, batteries, motors, solar etc? Into an Electric Propulsion System Forum? I see I'm not the only one interested, but ignorant.

[brian eiland]

Just thought it would be worthwhile to acknowledge that it will be new developments in the automobile field that will be most important for the marine users to keep track of. Hybrid cars make tremendous demands on batteries, and the automotive sector is so much bigger market and potentially profitable.

And now that rising fuel costs are driving hybrid auto development, new battery development should grow exponentially as well....exciting times.

[masalai]

Mostly done on the new ones I started by cross linking in first post...
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=193525#post193525
Brian, your thread seems to cover that bit & I have cross linked to it - would you like to reciprocate by cross linking in your initial post?

[brian eiland]

Very informative posts. Is there a way we can consolidate the threads on Electric power, batteries, motors, solar etc? Into an Electric Propulsion System Forum? I see I'm not the only one interested, but ignorant.
It would probably be a little difficult to combine all of these subjects under one thread, and that is one reason I chose to put up just a thread on the battery portion. There are several other good threads on the diesel-electric and electric subjects.

Here are a few:
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9310

http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=676

http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=65416&postcount=10

[masalai]

Thanks Brian, cross linked at both my #1 posts... I hope this generates some new information...

[Pericles]

As I have an interest in railways, I made a suggestion for a battery powered locomotive. For interest, here's a link, as similar requirements apply.

http://welshhighland.freeforums.org/battery-electric-etc-split-from-diesel-locos-t293.html

Perry

[masalai]

Pericles, not another site to register to get in - I am overloaded now... Copy and past into "Grumpy..." or, if you like, in one I set up (I cannot speak for the other threads)......

[Pericles]

Masalai,

Have copied just a few of the relevant posts.
----------------------------------------------------
Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:13 pm

As a result of research about diesel electric propulsion for a cruising catamaran I am planning to build, I collected considerable information. A marine environment is tough, so it's possible that some marine equipment could be used to fabricate a powerful diesel electric locomotive within the loading gauge of the two railways. The OSSA 200 Kw generators are very compact.

Here are some sites worth bring to the attention of the engineers.

http://www.ossapowerlite.com/products/motors/motors.htm

http://www.ossapowerlite.com/products/generators/generators.htm

http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/04.shtml#Q01_12

http://www.solomontechnologies.com/

http://www.fischerpanda.co.uk/electric_propulsion.html

Perry
-------------------------------
Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:05 pm

Hello Tony,

It depends on what you mean by expensive and heavy. The 1200 Ah batteries specified for my 60' catamaran are for traction and full house services. These batteries and the twin electric propulsion motors weigh less and cost less than two 60 HP propulsion diesels, one diesel 6 Kw generator, diesel fuel tanks and the relevant number of house batteries, which presently go into a conventional system for equipping a cruising catamaran. Diesels are also difficult and expensive to service in boats. Ask any marine engineer. The installation cost for my system is considerably lower, as well as much easier. Even the cooker is electric.

The two ASMO 17 Kw electric motors I shall use for propulsion whilst manoeuvring each weigh only 40 Kgs and when sailing at 6 knots+ they will rapidly recharge the batteries. She will cruise at 20 knots under sail.

http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/pdfs/Asmo_Marine_THOOSA_17000.pdf

Thus I can dispense with any dangers and costs for cooking with LPG and all costs associated with diesel propulsion. The sum of the whole is greater than the parts. Granted my solution is only applicable because of the recent developments in the equipment and the catamaran. Prior to 2003, cruising catamarans weren't swift enough. See Gunboat 62.

http://uncutvideo.aol.com/videos/cabce7fe77982ed5cbb7fcdf0dd91825

Either a DE loco or a battery loco. The only real difference being the batteries or the diesel generator. The downhill stretches can be used regeneratively with the battery locomotive. There is a good case for it.

My catamaran represents a logical development in view of rising fuel costs and even with the cost of replacement batteries in 10 years time, the convenience of an all electric vessel plus the smaller running cost per nautical mile fully justify my choices. Alternative traction on the two railways might just benefit from a less traditional approach.

Regards,

Perry
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:17 pm

Dear Tony,

It's either diesel electric or battery, but not both. The batteries needed for a 1000 HP narrow gauge locomotive are far fewer than for a standard gauge locomotive. Then again, would the two railways require such power, as 25 mph is the line speed? A Bo-Bo battery powered locomotive would have high tractive effort and if it were necessary to haul the batteries in a separate wagon, then the possibility exists to have extra capacity on charge for more intensive services.

These are just ideas triggered by designing my catamaran to be independent of diesel fuel. For me, it's the logical step. A 17 Kw Thoosa electric motor has the torque to replace a 60 HP marine diesel. Two will power a 13 tonne catamaran to 10 knots!

PS

Have just received an update from a boat builder who is developing a DE sailing catamaran. http://www.africancats.com/

Regards,

Perry
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From peterk. Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:54 am

Perry wrote:

"Tony,

It's either diesel electric or battery, but not both. The batteries needed for a 1000 HP narrow gauge locomotive are far fewer than for a standard gauge locomotive. Then again, would the two railways require such power, as 25 mph is the line speed?


The figure of 1000hp came from some speculative conjecture on here (see earlier in this thread) related to pulling a 12 coach train plus failed NGG16 up a 1:40 hill at 25mph. Something of an unrealistic corner case really, but fun to conjure with in an idle moment. In the real world, the power requirement could be lowered by accepting a slower speed in that "rescue" scenario. Trains probably wont load to 12 coaches either.

Whilst not being privy to any of the real management's thinking I seem to recall a hint (was it from Mike Hart??) that something in the 600hp region would do the job.

Perry wrote:

A Bo-Bo battery powered locomotive would have high tractive effort

Yes any loco can be arranged to have a high tractive effort - but it is power that governs its ability to exert that tractive effort at a useful speed. Taking the energy density figure for the Lithium batteries from the link posted above ie 90W-h per kg a 750kWh battery pack would weigh in at 8.3 tonnes - handy to have on board the loco for adhesion purposes I would think. Of course such a loco would only have sufficient endurance to exert its maximum (power) effort of 750kw = 1000hp continuously for an hour or so, but since the WHR is more or less a hill you go up one side and down the other, this is probably another too-extreme corner case. I guess the loco would only need to give flat-out maximum power for at most half the time, and for large parts of the downhill bits it can be recovering energy through regenerative braking. Thus a 2 hr trip end to end of the line including getting out of the way afterwards to plug itself in, with some 600-1000hp performances going up the Pass seems within the realms of possibility from a single charge.

Perry wrote:

A 17 Kw Thoosa electric motor has the torque to replace a 60 HP marine diesel. Two will power a 13 tonne catamaran to 10 knots!

hmm... choice of winding design can mean the stall and low speed torque of an electric motor is greater than the diesel, but sorry, torque at a given rpm = power, and 17kw is less than half of 60hp (= 44 kw in new money) so it all depends on the rev range you want to use. There will be a speed above which that 60hp diesel can spin harder and faster than the electric motor. At lower speeds the diesel's power simply isnt being used fully. - Of course also in a boat it depends on the propellor's ability to use the power at the rpm concerned, choice of motor speed/torque curve and propellor go hand in hand, and whats right for the diesel wouldnt be right for the electric motor and vice versa, but I digress...

I guess the point is that batteries have come a long way since the 50's and 60's technology studies mentioned above, but they still have a way to go, otherwise the US army would not be earmarking $15M for a one-off shunter, they'd be slinging them together from well tried components for a tenth of the price - rather like the diesel loco builders could do for us if we had the $1.5M, which we dont!.

Ho hum. fun to ponder on all the same.

PeterK
---------------------------------------------------
Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:47 am

Hello Peterk,

"There will be a speed above which that 60hp diesel can spin harder and faster than the electric motor. At lower speeds the diesel's power simply is'nt being used fully. - Of course also in a boat it depends on the propeller's ability to use the power at the rpm concerned, choice of motor speed/torque curve and propeller go hand in hand, and whats right for the diesel wouldn't be right for the electric motor and vice versa, but I digress... "

Absolutely correct. The electric motor will turn a larger propeller with a coarser pitch at lower revs without slippage and this delivers higher efficiency. Some marine diesels rev to 4400 and so need a 2-1 gearbox with the propeller sized to suit. Towards the 10 knot top speed the smaller propeller begins to loose "grip" on the water. There are a number of companies working on DE boats as the disconnection offered by the DE principle frees up more internal space for use as accommodation.

I am convinced a battery locomotive could be built at Boston Lodge from scratch, frames, bogies, the lot, for much less than £1.5 million. How about the Swiss Crocodile outline, without working pantographs?

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ch/SBB_CFF_FFS/electric/historic/crocodile/14270.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ce6-8.jpeg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ge_6-6_I_407_Krokodil.jpeg

http://86242.fotopic.net/p31914663.html

http://86242.fotopic.net/p31997064.html

Then there is this.

http://www.spikesys.com/GG1/

http://www.spikesys.com/GG1/paint.html

This would be weird.

http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/leader/leader.htm

Regards,

Perry
----------------------------------------------------
Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:17 am


"Then there's the drive format - C-C has all three axles in the bogie driven as a single unit from a single point (simple, single Cardan shaft from the traction drive to the bogie and simple gearboxes on each wheelset) against Co-Co where each axle is driven independently of the others (lots of small drive systems, but superb control during start and slippery conditions)."

Bob has summarised very well, which is why I think the Crocodile system using connecting rods and a single Cardan shaft is a good solution, familiar to steam railway engineers, especially at Boston Lodge.

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ch/SBB_CFF_FFS/electric/historic/crocodile/14270.jpg

Returning to the subject of battery power for a moment, here is a link to a very useful article by Nigel Calder who is a bit of a buff when it comes to latest technology. Go to page 104 at

http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20080203/

Some who post here may have heard of Odyssey batteries, but I hadn't, so the information has enabled me to improve the design of my catamaran. However, that's another forum.

C'mon chaps, a Crocodile (battery powered) chasing a Garratt up and down Snowdonia (Kilimanjaro). That's really African!:D

Regards,

Perry
_________________

Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:15 pm

An Internet search revealed these two sites.

http://www.active-robots.com/products/power-supplies/odyssey-batteries/battery-guide.pdf

http://www.active-batteries.co.uk/enersys-odyssey-batteries-c-104.html

With a recharge rate 15 times faster than AGM batteries, a battery powered Crocodile could be recharged for a return run in less than an hour. The capital cost for the batteries is comparable with a diesel powered generator, without the complexity and a battery powered locomotive would cost less to run than a diesel electric.

DC motors:

http://www.menzel-elektromotoren.com/en/gleichstrommotoren_lagernd.php

http://www.railway-technical.com/tract-01.shtml

http://www.beta-power.co.uk/Motors.html

OK, I can understand there will be some reservations about having a battery powered locomotive that could drag the entire rolling stock of both railways combined as one train, up and over the route, but what a hoot! :D :D

Perry
_________________

From Tony Smedley
Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:50 pm

Perry,

Although having a gut feeling that it doesn't sound right, I am intrigued by your ideas for a bettery loco. Not having the inclination to do the necessary homework myself, can I ask whether you can suggest figures for battery capacity requiired, its weight and space requirements, its cost including suitable charger and the voltage suggested.
In theory. a DC constant voltage power supply requires relatively simple motor controls, but they would need to be efficient, without energy wasting resistors,

Tony
--------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------

These extracts are part of further discussions, as wide ranging about railway propulsion as you will find opinions about propelling boats. I wonder if I can persuade the Directors to undertake a trial with sails along the flat section from Porthmadog to the foot of Nantmor Incline?:D :D :D :D :D

Regards,

Perry

[masalai]

Wow Perry, massive amount of stuff... Thanks...

[brian eiland]

Automotive vs Marine Batteries (Intertwined)
Just thought it would be worthwhile to acknowledge that it will be new developments in the automobile field that will be most important for the marine users to keep track of. Hybrid cars make tremendous demands on batteries, and the automotive sector is so much bigger market and potentially profitable.

Automotive/Marine marriages verses Railroad/Marine marriages.

I do think there is one big destinction in batteries that might find a use on railroad engines and those on boats....WEIGHT. There is far less concern with the factor of weight of the batteries in railroad applications vs auto or marine applications. In fact often you look for weight in the power source onboard the railroad loco as it requires heavy tractive effort to pull the long train of cars.

Certainly we wish to have the lightest weight units on our multihull vessels.

But thanks Perciles, those are a lot of interesting links you provided. And it is interesting the amount of research you have done on the diesel-electric propulsion subject....may have to consult with you on some of these subjects :idea:

[brian eiland]

...portion of a letter I wrote to Nigel Calder

I absolutely love your articles on the diesel-electric subject, and now batteries. Your thorough analysis of the subject makes for wonderful reference material

This is another subject that has gained lots of attention lately; all this new battery technology. I’ve long been interested in alternative fueled cars and electric ones in particular. I’ve followed this ‘super flywheel’ energy storage technology (http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=85848&postcount=163) for years believing that one day we would see this hi-density storage come into being. I even suggested a super flywheel storage unit in place of the conventional yacht’s aux generator on a catamaran design I had published in 1974. And I was pushing for some development activity on this subject for alternative-fueled autos while I was working in SE Asia.

Alas, it now appears as though these new-tech batteries might supersede the flywheel concepts. So it was with great interest that I read your latest article “Breakthrough” in ProBoat. I had recently become aware of the new anode technology for lithium-ion batteries by Altairnano, and planned on trying to find time to read more about the various new battery technologies as a possible investment potential.

With those thoughts in mind, I now how have a question I wish to ask you. Are you familiar with some super new battery technology on the immediate horizon?? I am being bombarded with several investor newsletters touting this new ‘forever battery’ technology that’s due very soon, and from a small company (?). I’ve attached a portion of some of this solicitation. Do you know anything of this technology, and/or whatever company?

I’ve added these new postings to the forum discussions in hopes condensing a lot of the scattered battery discussions into one central discussion thread. And I started each with a reference to your fine article. Please add anything you would like to these discussions.

[Pericles]

Brian,

Absolutely correct about weight. We figured 21 tons of Odyessy batteries for two hours duration for service as a 750 Kw. Krokodil 2-6-0-0-6-2 rescue locomotive, having a worst case scenario of starting 300 tons, including the failed Garratt, on 1-40 gradient, hauling at 25 mph and then replacing the failed locomotive for the return journey. Both ends of the line are at sea level, so as half the trip is down hill, regeneration helps the equation. It's just an idea whose moment may well arrive before the Lithium Phosphate batteries become commonplace. Adhesion weight matters.

For a 60-70' epoxy ply composite catamaran, the weight penalty for 1200 Ahrs capacity of Odyessy batteries is just about a ton over Lithium Phosphate units, so a fully electric fast moving boat, using regeneration when sailing, plus solar panels and a Red Baron at anchor will work very well, with today's technology.

http://www.fourwinds-ii.com/v2/?c=library&i=windGenComp

The weight of batteries, control gear and electric motors compares very favourably with the installed weight of two 60 HP diesel engines, fuel tanks, diesel generator etcetera, etcetera. Starting with a clean sheet of paper as you have done with your aftmast concept, it becomes easier to achieve new standards of excellence. When, in 10 years, it's time to replace the Odyessy units, there will be a choice of same capacity at lower weight or increased capacity at same weight.

Best wishes,

Perry

[brian eiland]

That's an interesting weight comparisons that would need to be considered, and I can appreciate this thought of yours,
.... When, in 10 years, it's time to replace the Odyessy units, there will be a choice of same capacity at lower weight or increased capacity at same weight.

I'm suggesting the same sort of approach with the kite-assisted power cat (new age trawler/motorsailer (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=171356)) I posted here....getting started at the very promising leading-edge technologies of the future, even before they reach maturity. And doing it in a manner that will readily accept the newer developments that will occur with maturity.

I would like to look at the 'energy density' factor of these stowage devices, all the while keeping in mind those limitations on many of today's batteries that were brought up in Nigel's ProBoat article.

[brian eiland]

... so a fully electric fast moving boat, using regeneration when sailing...
I can picture this 'regeneration factor' as worthwhile in many hybrid applications, but not under sail. I just can't imagine wanting to tow around a lot of extra drag in order to 'regenerate'....just doesn't sound productive to me in a sailboat environment, particularly when we go to all of the trouble to make these vessel perform well under sail.

[brian eiland]

...in relation to the 'energy density' subject I mentioned above, I found this quote by some analyst...I can't remember where

The Limits of Nature
In technological terms, there is a natural limit on the amount of energy per gram that can be stored in a battery. This limit is defined by the size of the chemical materials employed and the strength with which they bind their electrons. The targeted use of innovative chemical elements could enable, at most, a tenfold increase in this limit relative to today’s lithium ion cells.

However, hundredfold or greater improvements are not possible due to the laws of nature. Higher energy density can be achieved in nuclear batteries, which derive their power from the radioactive decay of isotopes. As a result, nuclear batteries can constantly emit energy for up to 20 years. This principle has long been recognized and was already applied in the 1950s and 60s in satellite technology. In this area too, nanotechnology has paved the way for some remarkable advances.

Consequently, the more widespread use of such energy storage devices across a range of applications is becoming more tangible.

[brian eiland]

This method of energy storage keeps popping back into my mind.

Some quoted excerpts from a few of my previous postings:

Flywheel energy storage is a more efficient, pollution-free solution to chemical batteries. Total recharge can be accomplished in about 15 minutes at any rate of energy draw or frequency yielding a cycle life of over 100,000 charges, or 30 years, with no deterioration in performance.
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=88966&postcount=195
___________________________________________________
So far no big auto manufacturer has picked up the option to incorporate Bitterly's design into their models. Meanwhile, there is considerable interest in Bitterly's flywheels powering satellites in space and trains in Germany. He also has a static model in the works that could be used as a back-up power generator. In the event of a power failure, it could assume the load within nanoseconds, thus preventing valuable computer data from being lost.

How long do Bitterly's flywheel systems last? He has designed the system to survive at least 10,000 run-and-recharge cycles. Under normal conditions, that would mean a life of 27 years -- and that's only a lower limit. flywheel systems last? He has designed the system to survive at least 10,000 run-and-recharge cycles. Under normal conditions, that would mean a life of 27 years -- and that's only a lower limit.
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=88967&postcount=196
____________________________________________________
Cause of Death: Major car manufacturers' rejection of new, flywheel-based engine technology

In August 1996, brothers Benjamin and Harold Rosen summoned a throng of journalists and auto executives to the remote Mojave Desert, in California. The founders of Rosen Motors had spent three years developing a hybrid electric vehicle. Now they were ready to debut their version of the car of the future. As the road test began, the spectators craned their necks in anticipation.

With their company entering a costly crash-testing phase, and with automakers in Detroit and overseas unwilling to bankroll it, the Rosens decided to call it quits, putting their 70 employees out of work. Reinventing the automobile turns out to be as difficult as it sounds--even for Ben Rosen.
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=88974&postcount=198
___________________________________________________
Energy stowage densities on the order of 10 to 20 times that of the very best batteries last time I checked....and that was some time ago.
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=89605&postcount=206

[Pericles]

Brian,

For the average monohull, regeneration is a complete non starter but, as an example, Gunboat 66 cruising speeds are vastly greater, even to those of most existing catamarans. The acceptable loss of speed due to drag of regeneration in such a situation, would be used efficiently and productively, whilst still leaving the others hull down on the horizon

In fact, a constant 30 knots of wind over the deck can be enervating, so for some crews, 26 knots just might be preferable. If out and out speed is later required, the Autoprops can be made to fold and the drag compared with a non turning fixed propellers drops by 85%, according to Bruton.

http://www.autoprop.com/autoprop/international/video.html

A Gunboat 62 has reached 36 knots and that speed was achieved with locked, fixed blade propellers on the two saildrive legs, protruding at an angle sideways from each hull at midships.

http://www.deltayachtsbrokerage.com/news/YWorld_gb62.pdf

It's the clean sheet scenario. The regeneration principal works because a cruising catamaran can be built that will scream across an ocean. It's not a retro fit, it's new build only. The large battery bank is not for motoring, it's to provide a luxurious lifestyle and for stealthily entering and leaving a mooring.

Best regards,

Perry

[JonathanCole]

A few basic terms can help to understand and visualize electrical energy storage devices.

Specific Energy is the kwHrs/Kg.
Specific Energy is important, because you want as much energy stored with as little weight as possible. However, compared to an automobile a boat can much better tolerate weight.

Volumetric Energy Density is the kwHrs/unit volume.
Volumetric Energy Density is important because whatever the weight, the smaller the package size, the easier it is to integrate into the space you have available.

Power (watt or kw) is the rate at which a device can accept or discharge its energy.
Power is important for the rate of charge and how much you can draw in a short time for a rapid acceleration for example. High power rates can allow the instantaneous drawing of huge amounts of energy when required. Low power rates cause inefficiency because when you try to draw it, the energy is converted to thermal energy which can actual damage the device and reduces the amount of energy available.

Energy (kwHr) is the actual amount of energy stored.
Energy is the amount of power you have over time, which relates to the time and distance that you can run. But you have to calculate the total efficiency of the system in order to determine how long your storage device will actually run your electric motor or what have you.

Deep Discharge Cycles are the number of times you can fill and empty the storage device before it fails or falls below a certain percentage of its original capacity.
Deep discharge cycles relate to the life of the storage device. This is complicated somewhat by the fact that in some storage devices (such as deep cycle lead acid batteries) a partial discharge/charge of the device can be more efficient than full discharge. In a situation in which one deep discharge is anticipated on a daily basis, you can calculate the life of the storage device.

Efficiency is the ratio of the energy put into the device compared to what comes out.
Efficiency is very important, especially throughput efficiency or in/out efficiency. This tells you how much of the energy you put into a device will be retrievable. The amount that is not retrievable is generally lost as thermal energy which also generally shortens the life of the device.

Shelf Life is how long the device can endure when not in use or with a minimal maintenance charge.
Shelf life relates to how long the device can sit unattended without self-destructing. This is very important in uses which are occasional as in recreational boats.

Maintenance is the amount of effort, expense, and risk that is required to utilize the device over its life. Obviously the less maintenance require, the more useful the device.

The Self-discharge Rate is what percentage of the energy is lost over time when the device is charged but unused. The only type of energy storage that does not appreciably self-discharge is the potential difference created by gravity. If you lift a weight away from the earths center, you have stored energy in that mass which can be released when it falls back to its original position. This is why pumped hydro storage is very attractive on a large scale, although impractical for vehicles because of the scale of the device. Lead acid batteries discharge at about 3%/month when fully charged. Super capacitors can self-discharge that much in a day, depending on the technology. The Lithium titanate technology referred to in this thread self-discharges at about 10% per month. The self discharge rate of a device is sometimes gradually reduced as the voltage goes down. So for example a fully charged 5 volt supercapacitor may self-discharge more rapidly until 75% of its energy remains at which time the rate is rapidly reduced.

These issues are what make the Altairnano technology a real breakthrough in batteries. But right now the company seems to be going through some difficulties as the CEO has stepped down and they have had to have a recall of their earlier battery packs from Phoenix Motorcar Company because of a heating problem. If these people can work out their problems, their technology represents a quantum leap in electrical energy storage technology.

[afrhydro]

help
i need help to get this to work

http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=21891

[Pericles]

I'm going to get pedantic with Mr Cole, but first I will address this statement.

"These issues are what make the Altairnano technology a real breakthrough in batteries. But right now the company seems to be going through some difficulties as the CEO has stepped down and they have had to have a recall of their earlier battery packs from Phoenix Motorcar Company because of a heating problem."

That statement begs one question. Why bother to bring up the subject of Altairnano at all and especially when Valence are so well ahead? It makes no sense, neither rational nor financial to me.

http://www.valence.com/products/ucharge_xp.html

Mr Cole. I also know you meant to suggest a "significant" step when you typed "their technology represents a quantum leap in electrical energy storage technology", but in physics, the subject under discussion here, the dictionary definition of quantum is as follows: The smallest amount of a physical quantity that can exist independently, especially a discrete quantity of electromagnetic radiation.

Thus, you inadvertently wrote the exact opposite of your intended meaning! Quantum leap is not a giant one, it's tiny! I felt it important to notify you in this frank manner because the rest of your post seems to imply you believe that those who post here are pretty ignorant about the subject of stored electric power. If I'm wrong, I apologise, but your tract really does read as if you are trying to teach your grandmother to suck eggs.:D :D

Pericles

[JonathanCole]

I'm going to get pedantic with Mr Cole, but first I will address this statement.

"These issues are what make the Altairnano technology a real breakthrough in batteries. But right now the company seems to be going through some difficulties as the CEO has stepped down and they have had to have a recall of their earlier battery packs from Phoenix Motorcar Company because of a heating problem."

That statement begs one question. Why bother to bring up the subject of Altairnano at all and especially when Valence are so well ahead? It makes no sense, neither rational nor financial to me.

http://www.valence.com/products/ucharge_xp.html

Mr Cole. I also know you meant to suggest a "significant" step when you typed "their technology represents a quantum leap in electrical energy storage technology", but in physics, the subject under discussion here, the dictionary definition of quantum is as follows: The smallest amount of a physical quantity that can exist independently, especially a discrete quantity of electromagnetic radiation.

Thus, you inadvertently wrote the exact opposite of your intended meaning! Quantum leap is not a giant one, it's tiny! I felt it important to notify you in this frank manner because the rest of your post seems to imply you believe that those who post here are pretty ignorant about the subject of stored electric power. If I'm wrong, I apologise, but your tract really does read as if you are trying to teach your grandmother to suck eggs.:D :D

Pericles

Wow! When I read a response like this one I just wonder what makes people so unreasonably contentious!

First the phrase "Quantum Leap" as defined by Mirriam-Webster Dictionary is:
quantum leap Function:noun
Date:1956: an abrupt change, sudden increase, or dramatic advance Here is another one:
Main Entry:con·ten·tious
Pronunciation:\kən-ˈten(t)-shəs\
Function:adjective
Date:15th century1 : likely to cause contention (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/contention) <a contentious argument> 2 : exhibiting an often perverse and wearisome tendency to quarrels and disputes <a man of a most contentious nature>synonyms see belligerent (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/belligerent)
Mr. Pericles, we are dealing not just in science but also language in this forum so it might good if you took your own saying to heart: Whilst entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to your own facts!

The fact is that many in this forum are only beginning to focus on the subjects discussed here. The practical issues of electrical energy storage are often not summarized in these discussions.

The reason that that the Altairnano technology could be a quantum leap in electrical energy storage technology is that if the specifications publicly released by the firm are factual,

they are a no maintenance battery,
with supercapacitor-like power characteristics (the rate at which they can take on and release a charge), resulting in amazingly fast charge up times,
Energy density characteristics between NiMH and Li-ion,
with 15,000 deep discharge cycles (if you did one cycle per day that would be 41+ years)
a claimed 20 year life
90%+ throughput efficiency
An extremely wide operating temperature range
No danger of combustion
Environmentally benign
No other battery system that I know of comes close to these specifications. Certainly not Valence Technology As far as teaching my grandmother to suck eggs, I thought that I was trying to be helpful to those with limited knowledge of the subject. I am a professional in renewable energy systems and believe that my experience and knowledge is valuable especially in electrical energy systems.

[Kaptin-Jer]

I have been to most of the forums in the past 4 years, but when I stumbled onto this one I was was very pleased to see a serious discussion on a serious issue being held by obvious learned professionals. I will just hang around and listen and hope to learn something.
Question on batteries: There was a man and wife team that designed batteries that I believe were used in the AV1 (the electric car the was leased by GM then crushed when they got too popular) GM bought their paten, but I think they went on to design other batteries. Are they still alive? Are any of their batteries in development?

[masalai]

May I suggest the debate be restricted (use "grumpy..." and call attention by posting a link - that is what I created the thread for..) Post sites that are freely accessable with a brief comment - I would like to learn too... (I blow off steam in "the dungeons")

My thanks to you both for the clarification... "from one who hides in the dungeons"

[Kaptin-Jer]

help
i need help to get this to work

http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=21891

I went to your site. Interesting, but I don't have a gofast. Can the pod work to replace a 50 hp diesel in a 38ft sailboat?

[afrhydro]

I went to your site. Interesting, but I don't have a gofast. Can the pod work to replace a 50 hp diesel in a 38ft sailboat?

yes it can
plus there are a few new ones as well

[Kaptin-Jer]

How can I get more info? Batteries? recharg systems? Cost? I'm in Boca Raton area.

[masalai]

Kaptin-Jer, Follow the links - there are 4 or so parallel threads cross linked relating to motors, batteries, generators and general discussion, Waht you find, please add by posting a link... Thanks...

Pericles posts have links so also with Brians...

[Pericles]

Let's look at these again.

* they are a no maintenance battery,
* with supercapacitor-like power characteristics (the rate at which they can take on and release a charge), resulting in amazingly fast charge up times,
* Energy density characteristics between NiMH and Li-ion,
* with 15,000 deep discharge cycles (if you did one cycle per day that would be 41+ years)
* a claimed 20 year life
* 90%+ throughput efficiency
* An extremely wide operating temperature range
* No danger of combustion
* Environmentally benign
* No other battery system that I know of comes close to these specifications. Certainly not Valence Technology

All highly desirable of course, but these are claims, or another word could be "opinions". The facts are that as yet, these units apparently do not work as stated. That's the point. A dream for some, a nightmare for others. It is not necessary to wait for when and if these units become available, probably at prices that only nation states can afford, fully electric cruising catamarans can be built right now.

After all, I could decide that all the present methods and materials used for building boats are totally unsatisfactory and that I should wait for the invention of a new, superlight, super strong, material that costs next to nothing. Until then, I shall not compromise and will not own a boat. That would be plain stupid and so is waiting for Altairnano. Proof of that 20 year warranty will not happen in my lifetime. BTW, I think you missed this.

If I'm wrong, I apologise, etcetera.

In the vernacular, the term "quantum leap" has come to mean an abrupt change or "step change", especially an advance or augmentation. The term dates back to early-to-mid-20th century, coinciding with the discoveries of quantum mechanics. "Quantum leap" has come to mean an abrupt change or "step change", especially an advance or augmentation. In the popular sense, the term is usually applied to mean a large or significant change, which is thus not strictly correct. Which is why I write in English, not vernacular.:D :D

Pericles

[Kaptin-Jer]

Pericles,
Have you heard of what became of the battery technology that was used in the EV-1 It allowed the EV-1 to travel 100 miles at 80 mph. I Think it was a NIMH system battery, or that was changed for something else (a little confusing), but It did work well enough for GM to buy the patent and bury it.

[Pericles]

Kaptin-Jer

Think about it. If GM did buy the patent and bury it, then how do you know about it? GM manufactures cars and if they had an advanced battery system to propel cars, that is head and shoulders above the competition, don't you think they would bring it to market and reclaim the number 1 car maker position from Toyota?

An oil company, on the other hand, might be concerned about its sales of oil, but these stories should be sensibly ignored, as we ignore cold fusion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion

Conspiracy theories are fun, so long as you don't believe them.:D :D :D :D :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

Have fun,

Pericles

[brian eiland]

...With those thoughts in mind, I now how have a question I wish to ask you. Are you familiar with some super new battery technology on the immediate horizon?? I am being bombarded with several investor newsletters touting this new ‘forever battery’ technology that’s due very soon, and from a small company (?). I’ve attached a portion of some of this solicitation. Do you know anything of this technology, and/or whatever company?
Good afternoon gentleman,
Well it's happening again, my being bombarded by this 'Forever Battery' claim. So I googled it and finally found something other than a few Chinese battery companies calling themselves 'forever battery'
http://stockideas.org/content/view/1602/87/
http://www.untappedwealthonline.com/battery-e2a.html
http://oneguysinvestments.com/gumshoe/comments.php?DiscussionID=900
The Most Startling Innovation In 208 Years Is About to Be Unleashed On the Market…
"I believe the company I reveal in my latest research report could easily make those gains pale by comparison. And I’d like to rush it to you now. It’s called “The Forever Battery: Making Today’s Batteries Obsolete… And Its Investors Wildly Wealthy”. And it’s yours FREE when you subscribe to Untapped Wealth. "
Tim Fields
Editor, Untapped Wealth
Trinity Investment Research

Gumshoe reply:I think this is xdsl, anybody get this?

Those are all some pretty startling praises, so I went to visit XDSL, mPhase Technologies
http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/080326/0379601
http://www.mphasetech.com/

They have some sort of 'coming out party' this coming 3Apr. As I look thru a lot of there info, I see their claims for extremely long (forever) shelf life, but I don't see rechargeable, and a few other factors. Am I missing something about this 'great' new battery??

[Kaptin-Jer]

Think about it. If GM did buy the patent and bury it, then how do you know about it?

Obviously you have never seen the movie "Who killed the Electric Car" a Documentary about the EV-1. A near by Municipally showed the film a few nights ago in conjunction with a demonstration of 5-6 electric vehicles being sold locally. As architects doing work in that city we were invited. I don't know if the movie can be rented, but it is worth the effort to find out. Yes there was such a battery. No I am not a conspirator, or even a tree hugger for that matter. The battery was developed by a husband and wife team who were the Ovonic Battery Co.. At the time they were in their 70's
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Who killed the electric car? A movie from Sony.

Driving the EV1 was unlike driving any other car. No key. No maintenance (except periodically rotating the tires and a coolant change at 100,000 miles). No visits to the gas station. No lag between pressing the pedal and getting a response from the engine. Jackrabbit starts — 0 to 30 in 3 seconds, and the prototype’s top speed was 183 mph. Production cars were limited to a top speed of 80 mph.
Propulsion…The Gen II was powered by a 137 horsepower, 3-phase AC induction motor and used a single speed dual reduction gear set with a ratio of 10.946:1. The Gen II propulsion system had an improved drive unit, battery pack, power electronics, 6.6 kW charger, and heating and thermal control module.

Batteries…26 valve-regulated high-capacity lead-acid (PbA) batteries were standard for the EV1 battery pack. These advanced batteries were an improvement over the pack available with the first generation EV1 and offered greater range and longer life and a nickel-metal hydride (NiMH) battery pack. This technology nearly doubled the range over the first generation battery and offered improved battery life as well.

Range…The EV1 with the high-capacity lead-acid pack had an estimated real world driving range of 55 to 95 miles, depending on terrain, driving habits and temperature. …The range with the NiMH pack was even greater. Again, depending on terrain, driving habits, temperature and humidity, estimated real world driving range varied from 75 to 130 miles.


Charging…The EV1 could be charged safely in all weather conditions with inductive charging. Using a 220-volt charger, charging from 0 to 100% for the new lead-acid pack took up to 5.5 to 6 hours. Charging for the nickel-metal hydride pack, which stored more energy, was 6 to 8 hours.


April 8th 1996 news clip
Lead-acid alternative. At General Motors, engineers are trying to deal with those limitations by working with another company to develop an alternative battery. In 1994, GM entered into a joint venture with Ovonic Battery Co., Troy, MI, to develop a nickel-metal-hydride battery that would have better energy characteristics.

You can Goggle Ovonic, you will be amazed at this company. It's real.

Please be open to Ideas.
Check out your facts. You are too quick to blow someone else off. I was giving you the benifit of being somewhat of an expert on the subject, but I guess being an expert doesn't make you a smart.

[Pericles]

How many shall I need for 1200 Whrs capacity I wonder?
How shall I connect them up?
What will they weigh?
How much will they cost?
How long will they last, really?
Can you think of any more questions Brian? :D :D

Regards,

Perry

[masalai]

If you are a betting person and can afford to loose what you bet, then go for it.... ? all I see is hype, videos that demand more bandwidth than our slack telecom can deliver, with more "hutspar" than a conference full of Jewish marketing experts.... I will sit on the sidelines with interest waiting for product & price etc... Thanks for the info Brian...

[afrhydro]

How can I get more info? Batteries? recharg systems? Cost? I'm in Boca Raton area.
you can call me if you like
http://allfiberglassrepairs.com/
http://www.cloudelectric.com/

what kind are you looking for

[Pericles]

C'mon Kaptin-Jer,

A film! On Discovery Channel, I suppose. No key. How do I prevent the car being stolen.:D :D See below for what I did find. Remember I wrote that oil companies might have concerns about their sales.

In 1994, General Motors acquired a controlling interest in Ovonics's battery development and manufacturing, including patents and trade secrets controlling the manufacturing of large nickel metal hydride (NiMH) batteries. In 2001, Texaco purchased GM's share in GM Ovonics. Critics claim that large-format NiMH batteries were commercially viable and ready for mass production, but Chevron and other oil-related interests suppressed the technology to forestall the introduction of plug-in hybrids.[40]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobasys

However, I went to the Cobasys website and there I see that Chevron Selects Cobasys NiGUARD NiMH Battery Backup Power Supply System for Data Center in Bellaire, Texas.

http://www.cobasys.com/products/stationary_case_studies.shtml#chevron

That doesn't seem like suppression to me, it's more like developing the product until it lives up to its hype.

What are Toyota and Honda doing? That's the question to ask. Have they approached http://www.cobasys.com/products/transportation.shtml about their systems?

Here's a thought. Having personally witnessed the appalling screw up at Heathrow's Terminal 5 and the damage it is still causing to the reputation to British Airways and the UK, I'd say never launch anything, be it a service or a product before it's ready.

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=4539&edition=1&ttl=20080330234600

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/7318444.stm

There are developments coming to the market all the time, but 9 out of ten new products fail. Let others be the guinea pigs and wait until these new technologies are reliable. That's my position, stuck in the UK because I wasn't about to fly out on holiday without my suitcase.:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Regards,

Pericles

[Guest625101138]

I have not been through this thread thoroughly but there are a couple of points worth noting if not already made.

Any material that finds increased use in motor cars will suffer a price spike. The trend for lead is interesting - see attached. This is driven by rising population of cars and growing use of renewable energy installations.

Li-ion batteries are made in small quantity but manufacturers are increasing output. A123 seem to be the ones that are doing best but all are fiddly to charge. They do have exceptionally high power density. If lithium has strong increase in demand its price will rise dramatically. The batteries are already expensive but this is due to the demand v the limited production capacity.

In a boat, the battery can serve 3 purposes. They provide ballast so energy density is not critical. The main bank can provide both motive power and auxiliary power - just don't run them flat. They can provide energy storage while at anchor - unlike sails that are only useful when under way.

Putting these ideas together you can get a reasonable result with a long slender hull, stabilised with batteries, that is easily driven by electric motor using both solar and wind energy collection stored in VRLA batteries. See attached concept.

Rick W

[brian eiland]

Obviously you have never seen the movie "Who killed the Electric Car" a Documentary about the EV-1. A near by Municipally showed the film a few nights ago in conjunction with a demonstration of 5-6 electric vehicles being sold locally. As architects doing work in that city we were invited. I don't know if the movie can be rented, but it is worth the effort to find out.
You can find various excerpts from this movie, as well as the whole movie I believe here on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Who+killed+the+Electric+Car&search_type=)

[sparky_wap]

I have not following the whole thread either but being involved in batteries in my profession might bring some insight. The best new promising technology seems to be LiFePO. This technology has about 2.5 the energy density of the best Pb units on a weight basis. Safety is advertised as being far ahead of the LIpo style but lower power/energy density. The price will come down with mass production. Like anything else, once the item is a comodity, competition on the mfg side will drive prices.
I'll get interested around $50/kWH.

I have noticed a large rise in Pb batteries. Even my favorite batteries at Walm@rt are up.

The problem with Nimh cells is the element Ni is rare (expensive). Not enough of it to go around for all our cars, boats, ups's toys...

While energy storage weight is not a cocern for sailboats, for powerboats, weight must be kept at a minimum. It's hard, but not impossible, to get an electric powered rowboat on-plane with heavy lead batteries.

http://www.edison-marine.com/



Joe

[brian eiland]

...While energy storage weight is not a cocern for sailboats, for powerboats, weight must be kept at a minimum.

A previous posting might have been misleading. Weight is very much a concern on multihull craft, power or sail....long thin low-displacement hulls

[JonathanCole]

All highly desirable of course, but these are claims, or another word could be "opinions".
While it is possible that you are correct in your "opinion", if you, are then the executives of this publicly traded company valued at $250 million or so, are liable for prosecution for providing materially misleading statements to the public and their stockholders.

The facts are that as yet, these units apparently do not work as stated. That's the point. A dream for some, a nightmare for others. It is not necessary to wait for when and if these units become available, probably at prices that only nation states can afford, fully electric cruising catamarans can be built right now.
While its possible that your "opinion" is correct, it is also possible that they actually do work as stated. According to recent reports, a 2 megawatt battery pack from Altairnano has been delivered on schedule at $.050 per rated watt/hr of storage or $500/kwHr. In a battery that has been tested out to 15,000 deep discharge cycles, and capable of utilizing the full rated capacity, that would be a cost of approximately $0.03 per kwHr over the life of the battery. Compare that to L-16 lead acid batteries which at a 50% use factor can last for perhaps 2000 cycles and cost about $300/ per rated kwHr with the 50% use factor. Comes out to about $0.15/kwHr. 5 times more expensive over the life of the battery.

By the way I have already engineered my electric catamaran and am hoping to build it in NZ.

Until then, I shall not compromise and will not own a boat. That would be plain stupid and so is waiting for Altairnano. Proof of that 20 year warranty will not happen in my lifetime.
Pericles

Now you are inventing your facts as I recall no mention anywhere of a 20 year warranty.

And, speaking for myself, I can only fervently hope that these guys at Altairnano succeed at what they are trying to do, because if they do it is a major breakthrough that will change the entire world of energy and all the related technologies including boats.

[Pericles]

Jonathan,

I wish you every success with your electric catamaran. One day we might arrange to meet one another in mid ocean half way around the world and share a cup or two.

As for misleading claims, political parties do it all the time.:D :D :D

About the warranty business, you mentioned that Altairnano claimed a 20 year life in their specifications released to the public. I would naturally expect to see that claim supported by a warranty, wouldn't you?

On matters of Altairnano's lithium ion costs, I can only refer you to Nigel Calder's opinion on page 107 in http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20080203/ (Not surprisingly, it's also very expensive!)

Anyway, it's all yet to happen. Nigel Calder is going with Odyssey batteries, I'm looking at Valence and in 10 years, who knows? Death & taxes, the only two constants.

Pericles

[FAST FRED]

you mentioned that Altairnano claimed a 20 year life in their specifications released to the public. I would naturally expect to see that claim supported by a warranty, wouldn't you?

Does a Rolls Royce come with a 20 year warranty, even though many have a 50+ year life?

A 5 year warranty , on a 20 year expected life would be fine.

"In a battery that has been tested out to 15,000 deep discharge cycles, and capable of utilizing the full rated capacity,"

Great in an everyday used scenerio, for most boaters , it would be decades worth of battery life , in a recreational boat the batts could perhaps outlive the boat?

FF

[Pericles]

As part of your correspondent's unyielding and fearless vision quest for the facts about batteries for boaters, I unearthed a nugget from December last, which bears scrutiny here at the forum. At the Electric Vehicle Symposium in Anaheim CA, Valence Technology introduced their new line of large-format lithium ion batteries designed for use in electric and hybrid vehicles. The three comments are revealing.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/12/03/evs23-valence-technology-introduces-large-format-lithium-batter/#comments

Reactions yesterday to the CARB announcement last week are available at.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03/31/silver-lining-carb-creates-huge-new-market-for-plug-in-hybrids/

What does all this mean? As far as I can discern, it's not possible to obtain the price per Kw. from A123, Altairnano or Valence Technology, all of whom appear to be using the same technology, (Page 3)

http://www.valence.com/assets/pdf/evs_faq.pdf

If the prices are of the level that a Resuscitation Trolley should be close at hand whilst being told the figures, then a 5 years warranty will not be enough. :D :D :D

However, the Synchronizing Inverter article by Nigel Calder on page 74 in

http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20080405/

suggests that Odyssey batteries could fulfill our needs and continue to be with us for a good while longer.

Good luck,

Pericles

[Pericles]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovonic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_electric_vehicle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_boat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevy_Volt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptera_Motors

Pericles

[JonathanCole]

Pericles wrote:
"What does all this mean? As far as I can discern, it's not possible to obtain the price per Kw. from A123, Altairnano or Valence Technology, all of whom appear to be using the same technology, "

I have gotten prices per kwHr from Altairnano. The price that they quoted me last summer was 4 x what they have now announced the price for their most recent large battery delivery. They only started manufacturing in September of 2006 on a limited production scale. That means that in less than a year their costs are rapidly going down.

A123, Altairnano and Valence technology are all using lithium based batteries, but the lithium is combined with different elements giving a wide range of claimed characteristics. For uses such as a boat, I would suggest that the most important issues are safety, long-life and low cost per lifetime kwHr stored. To me it appears that the Altairnano battery has distinct advantages in these areas. But of course, these are all relatively young companies, they can fail for reasons that have nothing to do with their relative merits. Poor management, miscalculations, competitor dirty tricks, etc. The outcomes of many of the most pressing world issues may rest on the success of companies like these. May the wind always be at their backs!

[Pericles]

Hello Jonathan,

Any chance you could you post the Altairnano prices you obtained please? I emailed the European, Northern Ireland office of Valence Technology yesterday for the cost and weight of 1200 Ahrs of Epoch Lithium Phosphate power.

Odyssey battery British prices for most of the range are here.

http://www.tayna.co.uk/catalog/295/2/Odyssey-Batteries-Odyssey-Drycell-Batteries-page2.html

ODYSSEY PC2150T
12V 2150 Cranking Amps
ODYSSEY PC2150T <br />12V 2150 Cranking Amps (Odyssey Batteries - Odyssey Drycell Batteries)Specifications
Drycell Battery
Without Metal Jacket
12 Volt
94 Ah @ 20hr rate
1090 CCA
2150 Cranking Amps for 5 Seconds
200 Minute Reserve Capacity
3/8 corrosion-free stud terminal
Suitcase lifting handle
Cycle life @ 77°F 400 at 100% DOD
-40°F to 140°F Temperature Range

Dimensions(mm)
330 x 173 x 240
Price: £329.99

I waiting for the PC 2250 price.

Regards,

Pericles

[JonathanCole]

Pericles wrote: Any chance you could you post the Altairnano prices you obtained please?

Actually, as an OEM, I have signed a non-disclosure agreement with Altairnano. Since their prices are not published, I guess that means I cannot directly divulge that information. But it can be deduced from other information I have already stated. It appears that this battery is such a radical breakthrough, especially in safety, durability and power (extremely fast charge times), that they have their pick of many competing entities for the limited production that they are currently capable of. In other words their production may be sold out for the near term.

For those interested in this battery technology I am uploading publicly available information about Altairnano batteries.

[sparky_wap]

Now that we know the technology can be brought to market, we (consumers) can hope a price war will soon follow. It the technology finds mass production in the automotive and computer market, the price will drop drastically in the next few years.

I know this is off the boating topic sort of but I am interested in plug-in electric cars. My personal development of my plug-in (for charging) electric boat has sparked interest in reducing reliability on crude oil. The oil companies have been sticking it to us and it is somewhat our fault as consumers. Now, I just can't see rewarding them buy buying anymore overpriced fuel than I have to. Charge up on nuke, wind, hydro... and runs on battery...

Joe

[Pericles]

From their Q & A section.

NanoSafe battery price
Q: How much do Altairnano batteries cost?
A: Altairnano batteries are currently priced near $2.00 USD per watt hour. Altairnano expects to achieve significant price reductions over the next 18 months, resulting in a price around $1.00 USD per Wh.

http://www.altairnano.com/markets_energy_systems.html

Pericles

[masalai]

Thanks Pericles, - Good to see things happening, how does that compare with your current choice/program?

[Pericles]

Brian,

Even at $1 per watt/hour, a 1200 Ahr battery capacity would cost more than the bleedin' catamaran, as far as I can work it out. A complete non starter. Have a look at page 74 at http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20080405/

As we say over here. "It's all occurring!"

Watch this space. (I must stop drinking these delicious SA wines. They doth befuddle me.):o

Perry

[masalai]

A friend who I knew whilst working around Carnarvon in Western Australia, name of Ray Ellis had developed a system where we could parallel an inverter driven by 20 x 12 v batteries and the AC stage of the charging motor to drive high power requirements on the pastoral station near Gascoyne Junction. we never got to installing that stage... I don't know how, but the first part was a fantastic improvement on the 4 hour runs in the morning and evening for refrigeration & etc down to 1 hour a day recharging instead of 8 hours noise...

[Pericles]

Yep, the batteries were used as a buffer. The fuel bills went down and the life of the pastoral generator was extended as well, I guess. Replace the diesel generator with a wind powered generator and a few solar panels, the result should be the all electric sailing boat. Most of the electricity will be produced via regeneration whilst sailing, hence a large catamaran for speed and comfort. It's too much pain for an ancient mariner to sail a monohull fast enough to make the equation successful.:D :D

This is a vessel for circumnavigation. I am looking at setting off and just cruisin'.

Using Odyssey batteries from EnerSys in Wales, the Ampair wind generator and Sillette saildrives from England, the Victron inverter from Holland and the motors from Asmomarine in Denmark, the components are not hard to assemble. No need for exotic batteries. :D :D

BTW. the retracting electric motors from Gideon Goudsmit are also under consideration.

http://www.africancats.com/resources/documents/PRESS_GreenMotion_ENG1467.pdf

All the best,

Perry

[colinstone]

12 x 2v 920Ah C10 (dry charged) cost me £20 each. 150 litres SG 1280 acid was another £100.

[JonathanCole]

Pericles wrote:
"Even at $1 per watt/hour, a 1200 Ahr battery capacity would cost more than the bleedin' catamaran, as far as I can work it out."

If you want to understand the cost of a battery, you cannot simply use the nominal watt/hour rating. That $1.00 per watt hour is the cost based on ther nominal rating or the one-time charge capacity of the battery. To get the actual cost over the life of the battery you first multiply the dollars times the wattHours to get the purchase price. Then multiply rated watt/hour capacity times the number of cycles the battery is rated for. This gives you the figure for the total watt/hours the battery can store over its life. Now divide the first number by the second number to give you the cost of storing a wattHour of electricity. Only then does it become evident that the new battery technologies are much cheaper when they have a much greater number of deep discharge cycles. Of course you still have to make a larger up front investment, but in return you get a reduced cost of storing a kwHr of electricity.

On my solar electric catamaran, I have specified a 30kwHr battery bank. Altairnano's last year price ($2/wHr) would be $60,000. This year they sold a large battery bank at 0.50/wHr. at that price, the same battery bank would cost $15,000. If the batteries last for 15,000 deep discharge cycles as they claim, the 30kW x 15,000 = 450,000 kwHr. $15,000/450,000kwHr = $0.033/kwHr of storage over the life of the system. That is 3.3 cents to store a kwHr of electrical energy. Even if you allow for the inefficienies it is still less than 3.5 cents per kwHr of storage. I'd call that a bargain, particularly when you can fill-er-up with solar or wind generated electricity.

[guxiangdeyun]

will you tell me about some marine propellers suppliers in the world
thank you

[Pericles]

Google for them.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=marine+propellers+suppliers&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a

http://www.shipserv.com/pages/search/supplier-details-catalogue.jsf?catalogueMatch=3&officeId=66103

Pericles

[masalai]

Hi Pericles, Those motors are the ones I am looking at (africancats pdf..), I am not so far advanced as you appear to be so I am sitting waiting fro cheaper non-gassing batteries & a generator based on something light like the Lombardini 502 0r 702 as per http://www.polarpowerinc.com/products/generators/marine_micro_cogen_lomb.htm as a pair.... This should meet both drive & "house" desires. . . with wind, the motors are immersed to deliver electricity, on windless & sunny days solar panels. I don't see the need for wind generators in the design yet... I aim to be able to run on coconut oil as well...

[Pericles]

Hell's teeth Brian! You got close to the camera.:D Is that an islamic gesture I see before me?:D :D :D

How to make coconut oil. Take one bullock!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coconut_oil

I reckon it's quicker & more simple to take a trip to the supermarket for SVO.

Those pod motors are more powerful than the Asmo units. I'm torn between the two. Francis Joyon had a wind powered generator on IDEC. No diesel generator for him, no heating either!!:cool: :cool: :cool:

http://www.buildboats.info/

Best wishes,

Perry

[masalai]

If you are intending to "do a lap" or spend some time around Australia & Melanesia, then A/C could be a need... or you will be sleeping on the forward tramp and swealtering... There are many days when the wind stops... The "between months" between monsoons & trade winds... - at that price and lack of filtering -CNO is not to be used as fuel...

I am told it is a "quaker" thing/look - twixt lip & chin is a bit sparse, also above jaw line... The camera was a good 8 ft away & I savagely cropped - removing "extra stuff" to my left...

[brian eiland]

Found this interesting discussion of the EE-Stor battery:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=22014

I wish it had been put over in this subject thread to try and corral some of these discussions together. So I'll just cross reference them.

[brian eiland]

Good afternoon gentleman,
Well it's happening again, my being bombarded by this 'Forever Battery' claim.

Those are all some pretty startling praises, so I went to visit XDSL, mPhase Technologies
http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/080326/0379601
http://www.mphasetech.com/

They have some sort of 'coming out party' this coming 3Apr. As I look thru a lot of there info, I see their claims for extremely long (forever) shelf life, but I don't see rechargeable, and a few other factors. Am I missing something about this 'great' new battery??
I raised a few questions about these inflated claims, and I think I was correct in doing so. I don't see any 'fantastic technology' here other than self-life. And in doing a little more research I found the some of the principles of this firm have been involved in some questionable SEC activity in the past. This might even be a 'pump and dump' stock situation (I say maybe as I do not know, just saw such a reference). Then again maybe they just hold a small piece of the bigger battery puzzle and need to self promote to find partners. Too bad we have this sort of activity on our stock market at a time we really need this new innovative work & investment in battery technologies.

[JonathanCole]

Since Brian brought up the EEStor story in this thread, there are a couple of things are helpful to know to understand the functional difference between a capacitor and battery. I have developed a supercapacitor patent and came to understand the importance of these things in the course of that work. This is basic math. The energy stored in a capacitor is expressed by this formula,
http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/d/b/f/dbf4167027fb65b4d45a5e76331b9279.pngThis basically tells you that you can get exponential energy storage gains by increasing the voltage of the capacitor.

The other important one is
http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/d/a/0/da029e92020966adbf5bd3ce6533498d.png.
This shows what happens when you put capacitors in series. The capacitance rapidly is reduced leading to reduced energy storage.

Most super capacitors and ultra capacitors are low voltage devices. When you put them in series, their energy density goes way down.

I believe that the EEStor ultracapacitor tries to get around this by essentially creating a high voltage, high energy density device, by utilizing thin films of barium titanate which is the highest value insulator known. This would be deposited directly on electrodes (with huge surface areas) at molecular thicknesses. The difficulty is that this ceramic like material, barium titanate may be prone to cracking or other forms of rupture in any expansion and contraction scenario.

As to whether these supercapacitors can have so many cycles, this is absolutely true. It is because they are purely electronic devices and store electrons by introducing a tension on the insulator that separates the positive and negative charges. Think of it like atomic/molecular springiness that stores the energy.

If you want to transfer energy, the capacitor is the way to go, because it has very low losses. In a special circuit called a tank circuit, a capacitor can transfer energy almost without loss. So when you want to charge your electric vehicle or boat, it will be good to have a big bank of capacitors at the filling station, that has slowly accepted the charge from the grid or other sources. It will be charged at a voltage somewhat higher than your vehicle, and will then be able to dump the energy as quickly as your battery/capacitor can take it on.

[Guest625101138]

...........
http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/d/b/f/dbf4167027fb65b4d45a5e76331b9279.pngThis basically tells you that you can get exponential energy storage gains by increasing the voltage of the capacitor.

The other important one is
http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/d/a/0/da029e92020966adbf5bd3ce6533498d.png.
This shows what happens when you put capacitors in series. The capacitance rapidly is reduced leading to reduced energy storage.

.......

Sure capacitance is reduced in series connection but voltage rating has gone up so energy storage has gone up as this is a function of V^2.

Rick W

[JonathanCole]

Sure capacitance is reduced in series connection but voltage rating has gone up so energy storage has gone up as this is a function of V^2.

Rick W

I stand corrected , it should have read capacitance goes down in series, not energy.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_and_parallel_circuits

Capacitors

Capacitors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor) follow a different law. The total capacitance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitance) of capacitors in series is equal to the reciprocal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplicative_inverse) of the sum of the reciprocals of their individual capacitances:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/75/Capacitors_in_series.svg/390px-Capacitors_in_series.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Capacitors_in_series.svg)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/d/a/0/da029e92020966adbf5bd3ce6533498d.png. The working voltage of a series combination of identical capacitors is equal to the sum of voltage ratings of individual capacitors provided that equalizing resistors are used to ensure equal voltage division. This is all because of Ohm's law.

[brian eiland]

I just happened across this interesting website that is devoted to the subject of ultracapacitors

Ultracapacitors.org
http://www.ultracapacitors.org/index.php

This EEStor group really appears to be moving right along with a production plant inbuild

Also found this discussion of interest:
Carbon Aerogel & Ultracapacitors

[brian eiland]

Technology Review

http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?ch=specialsections&sc=batteries&id=20090&a=

http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?ch=specialsections&sc=batteries&id=18086&a=

[masalai]

brian e, Thanks for the posts, most interesting progress. - One can only hope for rapid development and implementation...

[brian eiland]

..Also found this discussion of interest:
Carbon Aerogel & Ultracapacitors
Carbon Aerogels and Ultracapacitors

Let's recap Carbon Aerogels - they are solid substances similar to gels but where the internal liquid is replaced with air. Aerogels are so porous and lightweight that they are sometimes called "solid smoke" or "blue smoke". Touching aerogel feels like styrofoam.They are typically 50-99.5% air, yet can hold (theoretically) 500 to 4,000 times their weight in applied force.

Aerogel can have surface areas ranging from 250 to 3,000 square meters per gram, so in theroy, a cubic inch of aerogel flattened out would have more surface area than an entire football field. Aerogel has 15 entries in the Guinness Book of World Records, including best insulator and lowest density solid.

This technology will improve ultracapacitors by swapping in carbon nanotubes. This greatly increase the surface area of the electrodes and the ability to store energy since the amount of energy ultracaps can hold is related to the surface area and conductivity of electrodes. So.. since they have a extremely high surface area, carbon aerogels are used to create ultracapacitors with values ranging up to thousands of farads.

Currently, Carbon Aerogels represent one of the lowest density solids available on the market and can be produced as thin films, powders, monoliths, or micro spheres. The main problem so far has been the cost. Nano materials tend to be a hundred or thousand times more expensive than conventional dielectric materials.

MIT's Lab has been working on the ability to charge electronic items (phones, ipods, gadgets) in minutes and never having to replace a battery again. Can you imagine fully charging your mobile phone in a couple of minutes?

Get ready.the day is coming...

[JonathanCole]

Brian, As mentioned in an earlier post, one of the most important characteristics of energy storage technologies is their self-discharge rate. This is a weak point of many of the newer super/ultra capacitor technologies.

[Pericles]

Brian,

Your post caused me a flashback, which Wikipedia was able to repair. :D :D
The phrase "notched electrons" was followed by Multivac. Issac Asimov wrote a loosely connected series of stories concerning a fictional computer called Multivac. The Last Question was "Can entropy be reversed?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Question

Asimov postulated an ever more powerful computer technology in which information was stored on notched electrons. That was far sighted for 1956! The technology for storing electricity is about to take that huge leap, equivalent to Asimov's wonderful imagination so many years ago and even hand held phasers may not be fiction for much longer. Yes please, I want one! Thanks for keeping us up to date with these new developments.

Regards,

Perry

[brian eiland]

Brian, As mentioned in an earlier post, one of the most important characteristics of energy storage technologies is their self-discharge rate. This is a weak point of many of the newer super/ultra capacitor technologies.
I might have to go back and read about some of these technologies more throughly, as I was under the impression that the chemical tech batteries suffered much worst from self-discharge verses the capacitor tech ones?? But the chemical ones still held the upper hand with total storage capacity??

[Guest625101138]

Seems there are a lot of people trying out A123 batteries.
Some interesting examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7_NvpzPfeE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9ayuFBDrSg&feature=related
http://futuredrive.wordpress.com/2007/11/11/safety-of-a123-battery-cell/
http://www.a123systems.com/hymotion

Seems the electric powered car can be made by combining an A123 battery pack and Toyota Prius.
http://www.a123systems.com/hymotion

Yet to see what happens if one of the A123 batteries get dropped into water.

There is a lot of development going on with these batteries and associated equipment.

Rick W.
Rick W.

[afrhydro]

Seems there are a lot of people trying out A123 batteries.
Some interesting examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7_NvpzPfeE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9ayuFBDrSg&feature=related
http://futuredrive.wordpress.com/2007/11/11/safety-of-a123-battery-cell/
http://www.a123systems.com/hymotion

Seems the electric powered car can be made by combining an A123 battery pack and Toyota Prius.
http://www.a123systems.com/hymotion

Yet to see what happens if one of the A123 batteries get dropped into water.

There is a lot of development going on with these batteries and associated equipment.

Rick W.
Rick W.
Love these batteries
i need 72 volts for my project

[masalai]

My need is enough (to be useful for house & nav @ 12 or 24v) and to drive 2 x 10 kw motors as per the African Cats project (144v pulsed DC), and 240 Vac for some domestic stuff. - - Charged by 3 kw solar panels and 2 x 10 kw 144v DC generators....

Please - How much for thebatteries?:D Sufficient for about one hour at 7 to 15kw to the motors?

(the generators I like at the moment are the Lombardini LDW 702 or 1003 from Polar Power around US$9000 ea., & solar panels are priced from marinedirect.com.au - STA165-24 "rated" at 165w & 18 units @ AU$1310 each - includes regulators & mounting)

[plankton]

An absorbing read and many links to follow. All good and for those of us who care about the world and its dependence on oil, the new battery technology seems to be a blessing about to come true.

BUT, despite these advances in batteries and charging systems, might we be missing a point ? How we will be making all these batteries for our cars and our boats ? For example, auto sales in the U.S. alone are about 15 million vehicles per year. Thus, to convert to electric cars with batteries, we must mine and refine at least five million tons of lithium, copper, nickel, lead, and whatever other metals are used to make 15 million battery packs for all those cars. Five million more tons of metals mined each year just for the US car population, assuming an average of 500 lbs of battery pack per vehicle. How much more then for the rest of the world and all the other powered vehicles we wish to use battery power for ?

In effect, in our quest for the best power solution for our hybrid cars and circumnavigating vessels (and mountain gobbling trains, of course :p ) are we about to lose sight of the fact that we might actually be doing even more damage to our environment than we would rather hope we were not doing ?

I don't mean to offend anyone and hope someone will justly pour scorn on my theory, but it's just a thought - I'm all for clean power, but wonder whether we shouldn't be pursuing the hydrogen/saltwater fuel solution better - after all, if Jules Verne said it would come true then it surely will, right ? :D

Also, I don't see it mentioned anywhere on the site (though I have most likely not encountered it yet) but you might like to see this Odyssey-powered catamaran launched in China last month. It has a theroetical infinite range at 6 knots if weather conditions allow. It's quite interesting to see what they've done to it, systems wise. It's not the most beautiful of boats, though ! :D If it's been mentioned before, my apologies for the repeat link.

http://dsehybrid.com/index.html

[Landlubber]

plankton,

I sort of agree, but we will have to go back to making things that are supposed to last, not the planned obsolescence that we have been following for the last 40 years or so. I hate throwing anything away, there is so much that can be repaired and so much that is economically impossible (electronics), but we can at least design and build for longer life expectancies, that would surely help the situation. My Landrover is 25 years old, as good today as the day it was built, unfortunately I gave it to my Sister, ........the rest just makes me cranky so I will not go into details.

[masalai]

Plankton, - One of the difficulties lie in the portability of fuel for diesel engines, and the convenience of same... Coconut Oil will run on diesel engines happily in the tropics (below 24 deg celsius it solidifies)... On a boat, where the engines run for extended periods and IF the fuel is PURE CNO then preheat to 70 deg Celsius

(WORDS OF CAUTION - this is very close to the flash point of diesel fuel as sold in most western countries - US is heavier? - FLASH POINT is where it can self ignite with a big bang)

Where I will be cruising CNO is easily obtained/extracted from coconuts.... Hydrogen still needs power to extract it from the water - just an extra step in solar photovoltaic & batteries. - - - Hydrogen at ambient is at FLASH point - I do not like explosives floating around in my boat....

I would be very concerned with quality control from China, lots of enthusiastic and hard working motivation but somewhat lacking on skills development and trades experience...

[plankton]

Masalai,

All taken on board, but one point - if the hydrogen was used as it was produced (ie: no storage) then it might be a possibility - this is the premise of those seeking to extend the development of the potential of Brown's Gas.

However, if we still need the power to extract the gas, surely that could be provided by your coconut-oil powered generator ? A marriage of convenience maybe ? Hawking meets Benjamin Christie ?

Of course, we haven't exhausted the possibilities of nuclear power yet. I see Toshiba have managed to squeeze a self-contained reactor into a 20 x 6 foot area now. One for the starboard engine and one for the port side, perhaps ? On a decent sized vessel, of course.......

I wasn't asking you to spend your dosh on a Chinese boat - thought the concept was interesting for its successful trails. You can buy boats, Steyr engines and Odyssey batteries elsewhere......

[masalai]

Have a look here, there are 6 or more interlinked threads with links to relevant sites awaiting further developments. as they occur, we post updates....

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=193525#post193525

[brian eiland]

...ran across this recently
http://www.rise.org.au/info/Tech/scap/index.html


What are Supercapacitors?
With characteristics of both batteries and capacitors, supercapacitors (also called electrochemical capacitors or ultracapacitors) could be used by utilities to regulate power quality. A capacitor is a device that stores energy in the electric field created between a pair of conductors on which electric charges of equal magnitude, but opposite sign, have been placed. A supercapacitor is an electrochemical capacitor that has an unusually large amount of energy storage capability relative to its size, when compared to common capacitors. These are of particular interest in automotive applications for hybrid vehicles and as supplemental storage for battery electric vehicles, as well as power electronics applications such as in wind turbines.


Figure 1 Photo of a bank of Maxwell PowerCache Ultacapacitors under a cars bonnet (Photo copyright Metric Mind).


Capacitors are electronic devices that that can provide enormous amounts of power, but only store very small amounts of energy. Alternatively, batteries can store large amounts of energy, but provide relatively low power outputs. Supercapacitors can provide both higher power outputs and store lots of energy.


Supercapacitor Technology
When a supercapacitor is charged, the energy is stored as a charge or concentration of electrons on the surface of a material. This means a supercapacitor is capable of very fast charges and discharges which can achieve a very large number of cycles without degradation, even at 100% depth of discharge (DOD). Capacitors are made from various materials in many ways, from multilayer ceramics, ceramic disc, multilayer polyester film, tubular ceramic, axial and radial polystyrene, to carbon nanotubes (Wikipedia, 2006a).

Supercapacitors found their first application in military projects such as starting the engines of battle tanks and submarines or replacing batteries in missiles. Common applications today include starting diesel trucks and railroad locomotives, actuators, and in electric/hybrid-electric vehicles for transient load levelling and regenerating the energy of braking. NASA has used 30 large supercapacitors in its turbo-electric city bus (EERE, 2006).

Carbon nanotubes and polymers, or carbon aerogels, are practical for supercapacitor designs. Carbon nanotubes have excellent nanoporosity properties, allowing tiny spaces for the polymer to sit in the tube and act as a dielectric. Polymers have a redox (reduction-oxidation) storage mechanism along with a high surface area. MIT's Laboratory of Electromagnetic and Electronic Systems (LEES) is researching using carbon nanotubes (LEES, 2006).

Supercapacitors are also being made of carbon aerogel. Carbon aerogel is a unique material providing extremely high surface area of about 400-1000 m2/g. Capacitances of up to 104F/g and 77 F/cm3 have been achieved. Some corporations, such as Cooper Electronic Technologies, are already producing aerogel-based supercapacitors. Their maximum voltage is 2.5V, but they can achieve an energy density of 325 kJ/kg (disputed as 10.6 kJ/kg, see Discussion), which is about 70% of that provided by the state-of-the-art lithium polymer batteries. Power densities achieved are even higher, up to 20 kW/kg, orders of magnitude higher than what Li-poly offers. Small aerogel supercapacitors are being used as backup batteries in microelectronics, but applications for electric vehicles are increasing (Wikipedia, 2006b).



Figure 2 Superconductors. Courtesy of Harald Sattler’s Modellbau und Elektronik Supercapacitor


Supercapacitor Applications
The newly developed Honda Fuel Cell Stack and ultra-capacitor combine to power the motor, with onboard high-pressure hydrogen tanks for fuel storage for the new Honda FCX hydrogen fuel cell car. The fuel cell vehicle is powered by an electric motor running on electricity generated by a fuel stack which uses hydrogen as its energy source. Considering factors such as energy efficiency during power generation and driving, overall system weight, and packaging efficiency, Honda has equipped the FCX with a system that combines a fuel cell stack and ultra-capacitor (see Figure 1) with onboard high-pressure hydrogen tanks (Honda Worldwide, 2006).

Renewable energy technologies feature in the applications for supercapacitors with Alain Riedo, vice president and general manager of Maxwell’s Swiss subsidiary, Maxwell Technologies SA, said that Enercon currently uses BOOSTCAP® ultracapacitors (see Figure 3) for backup energy storage and power delivery in wind turbine models ranging in output from 300 kW to 6 MW. “In addition to being one of the world’s largest wind turbine producers, Enercon is recognized as a leading innovator in the design and manufacture of megawatt class turbines,” Riedo said. “To optimize energy output and enhance system reliability and longevity, each of Enercon’s turbines’ three blades has an independent braking and pitch adjustment mechanism with backup power to ensure continuous operation in the event of a power failure. Each turbine incorporates from 200 to 700 BOOSTCAP ultracapacitors for backup power.” (Maxwell Technologies, 2006).

Ulrich Neundlinger, Enercon’s managing director of switching units, said that the company is expanding its use of ultracapacitors for blade pitch system backup power after initial deployments confirmed their significant advantages over traditional battery solutions. “Ultracapacitors enabled us to overcome a number of battery-related design challenges, including poor low temperature performance and limited operational life,” Neundlinger said. “Maxwell’s products emerged as the clear choice for this application on the basis of their robust construction, long operating life and cost-effectiveness. Wind turbine operators need low-maintenance systems that operate reliably for many years, and BOOSTCAP products have proven that they can help us to continue to meet our customers’ expectations.” (Maxwell Technologies, 2006).


...and in consideration of our enviroment;
...Thus, to convert to electric cars with batteries, we must mine and refine at least five million tons of lithium, copper, nickel, lead, and whatever other metals are used to make 15 million battery packs for all those cars. Five million more tons of metals mined each year just for the US car population, assuming an average of 500 lbs of battery pack per vehicle. How much more then for the rest of the world and all the other powered vehicles we wish to use battery power for ?

In effect, in our quest for the best power solution for our hybrid cars and circumnavigating vessels (and mountain gobbling trains, of course ) are we about to lose sight of the fact that we might actually be doing even more damage to our environment than we would rather hope we were not doing ?
...note that the majority of the 'materials' utilized in this battery technology is CARBON...the single most abundant material on earth, and the universe..right??

[brian eiland]

...I just happened across this interesting website that is devoted to the subject of ultracapacitors

Ultracapacitors.org
http://www.ultracapacitors.org/index.php

This EEStor group really appears to be moving right along with a production plant in building....
Well not exactly, as they just announced another delay in coming to the market. BUT, they did just get a patent...

Dec 22, Slashdot.org, news for nerds, stuff that matters (http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08%2F12%2F22%2F0238227&from=rss)

An anonymous reader sends us to GM-volt.com, an electric vehicle enthusiast blog, for the news that last week EEStor was granted a US patent (http://gm-volt.com/2008/12/21/eestor-is-granted-a-new-patent-on-the-eesu-offering-extensive-detail-on-its-design-and-function/) for their electric-energy storage unit, of which no one outside the company (no one who is talking, anyway) has seen so much as a working prototype. We've discussed the company on a number of occasions. The patent (PDF available) is a highly information-rich document that offers remarkable insight into the device. EEStor notes "the present invention provides a unique lightweight electric-energy storage unit that has the capability to store ultrahigh amounts of energy."
"The core ingredient is an aluminum coated barium titanate powder immersed in a polyethylene terephthalate plastic matrix. The EESU is composed of 31,353 of these components arranged in parallel. It is said to have a total capacitance of 30.693 F and can hold 52.220 kWh of energy. The device is said to have a weight of 281.56 pound including the box and all hardware. Unlike lithium-ion cells, the technology is said not to degrade with cycling and thus has a functionally unlimited lifetime. It is mentioned the device cannot explode when being charge or impacted and is thus safe for vehicles."
____________________________________________

...from another contributor...
Take a car battery rated 12 V, capacity 60 Ah. This battery can keep up a current of 60A for about one hour (actual capacity depends on discharge rate, lower rate equals higher capacity - up to a point). 60A * 12V DC = 720W. It can do that for about an hour -> capacity 720Wh or about 0.72 KWh. The 12V battery in my tractor has a capacity of 180 Ah which roughly translates to (12 * 180 =) 2.16 KWh. It weighs some 60kg. This EEStor maybe-real-soon-now device has a claimed weight of 128 kg. You'd get about 5 KWh worth of Lead-Acid capacity for that weight, meaning this device - if it ever sees the light of day - has about 10 times more capacity per kg

[Guest625101138]

A large capacitor will present some interesting challenges for control systems. Unlike batteries their energy storage is a function of voltage. Batteries are effectively a constant voltage source. So controllers will need to be designed to operate on an ever diminishing voltage level.

These capacitors have about 3 times the energy density of lithium batteries. If they get to market we will see some interesting vehicles. They have potential to make existing cars look/feel incredibly sluggish.

The other thing is that there will be serious competition for lithium so we might see keener prices with these.

Rick W.

[brian eiland]

These capacitors have about 3 times the energy density of lithium batteries. If they get to market we will see some interesting vehicles. They have potential to make existing cars look/feel incredibly sluggish.
When I was looking at 'super flywheel' energy storage technology (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/propulsion/new-propulsion-sytems-ships-9630-11.html#post85848) and several postings here (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/propulsion/new-propulsion-sytems-ships-9630-14.html), I thought I remember on a number of occassions hearing of 10X energy storage densities out of the National Labs, etc ? And just above, "you'd get about 5 KWh worth of Lead-Acid capacity for that weight, meaning this device - if it ever sees the light of day - has about 10 times more capacity per kg".

Of course these are just 'claims' in the development stages.

[masalai]

I hope it develops up, and is on the market in 12 months - If it does not leak (internal discharge/decay), I could be interested if same price as AGM's (4 x 220 A @ 60kg each in series for 48vdc) so half the weight and 10 x capacity, if price competitive as a replacement with bonuses....:D

What about charging (via solar panels &/or i/c engines - - circuits & controllers) and drawing off to electric motors, inverters, and other services....?

[Pericles]

Brian,

If all else fails, read the instructions and use a calculator. :) :) :)
EEstor mention that for road vehicles, the charging stations will be super capacitors themselves, so that the vehicles will be recharged in a time comparable with filling the tank with petrol or diesel. That's quite an infrastructure that will need to be installed. Of course, there will be a greater need for electricity generation, so there is no free lunch. Coal fired powerstations without CO2 capture will do very well, because AGW is a crock and CO2 is not a problem.

Also, as you will be aware, governments tax fuels and they will therefore charge heavily for the recharging of your supercapacitor powered vehicle. Home charging from a plug in your garage is unlikely to figure much in the calculations, because cables would need to be much thicker to handle the load. A 300 mile range requires a lotta kilowatts.

Politicians like Obama (who is so scientifically challenged, he's a one term president), are the problem, He especially, is a marxist disaster for the USA, but Krudd in Ozland is his willing hand maiden and the EU is so corrupt, I predict the global population will fall by five billion by 2050 AD, unless the IPCC policies are scrapped. Welcome to the big freeze. Did you want to live forever?:(

[masalai]

Cryogenic funeral?

[CDK]

The lithium-ion battery used in the Tesla car (www.tesla.com) has a storage capacity of approx. 50 Kw and a weight of 500 kg, which is considered to be state of art. Included within the battery with 6800 cells are 8 microprocessors and a liquid cooling system to keep the battery from turning into a powerful bomb.

The same amount of energy can also be obtained from approx. 6 ltr. of ordinary gasoline....

A newer technology from Stanfort university using silicon nanowires to store the lithium promises a tenfold increase of storage capacity. That would mean 500 Kw. from a 500 kg. battery, comparable to 60 ltr. of gasoline (if all goes well). But this is a very recent development and it will still take several years to set up large scale production.

The super-capacitor is a somewhat different approach that may or may not prove feasible. Because the insulation layer between the electrodes is so thin it is almost virtual, a lot of peripheral equipment, just like that of the Tesla battery will be needed to make it safe for everyday use. It may very well be that at the end of the day it is just as heavy as the Li-ion battery.

About charging.

The efficiency of Li-ion batteries, 85-90% is very good, super-capacitors - in theory - approach 100%. But storing 50 Kw. into a perfect battery still means that you need to pull 50 Kw. from the mains, convert it into the proper voltage (with 10-15% inevitable losses) and feed it to the battery. Any promises that this can be done in the time you need to fill your gas tank are nonsense. Even with 1 hour charging time you would have to draw 500 Amps from your wall socket in the USA or 250 Amps elsewhere. Not realistic!
Using super-capacitor charging stations that keep the 50 Kw in store for you may shorten charging time at enormous expenses but only shift the problem of power demand, not solve it.

[Guest625101138]

You have to think in terms of the overall system.

Electric motors of moderate rating do not need a gearbox as they give 2 to 3 times rated torque at any point in their speed range. So ditch the gearbox.

An electric motor rated at 50 kW will give the sort of performance of a 150kW IC engine. How much power do you need to cruise continuously at 100kph (the speed limit in most of Australia). So much lighter electric motor than IC.

You can recover all the energy usually lost to brakes. So scale down the brakes they no longer need to dissipate vast amounts of heat.

We are now getting a lighter vehicle. Petrol engine in typical city traffic will achieve 20% efficiency if you are lucky. A good electric set up will get around 80% including motor, controller and battery. That means you need only 1/4 of the initial fuel load to do the same job but everything can be made lighter and you have energy recovery so you get considerably better than 4 times for the same energy on board.

Also ditch the muffler and engine bay sound proofing. Ditch the starter motor and starter battery. Lighten the suspension and chassis as the vehicle has gone on a diet and is now much more nimble.

I read about 10 years ago that if cars had developed at the same pace as computers we would have vehicles that weighed a few kilos and did 1000kph. There is so much invested in current IC technology that it is hard to change but the pieces are coming together. No doubt there are challenges but the basic bits for a revolution are at least feasible. Car makers that sit still will fail.

I believe Formula 1 cars will be permitted to use energy recovery in 2009. Once they start on this slippery slope it won't be long before they go all electric. Batteries/capacitors will be interchangeable like tyres only reused from race to race. The performance potential is staggering compared with existing racers. Improved weight distribution and greater flexibility in layout.

Compare these:
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=5142&Product_Name=HXT_80-100-B_130Kv_Brushless_Outrunner_(eq:_70-55)
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=5733&Product_Name=SV_50cc_Twin_Gas_Engine_CDI_3.13kW
The IC engine is heavier and half the power. This shows what is possible with current state of the art in both fields.

Have a look around at all the model aircraft stuff coming out of China. The vast majority is now electric with lithium batteries. This is where power to weight really counts. They offer staggering performance. They just run. The serious hobbyists carry a couple of batteries and just interchange them but recharge is only 10 minutes or so anyhow - about the same as flying time. No fiddling about trying to get temperamental IC engine to fire.

From what I read we will see all electric cars in quantity in about 3 years and maybe 15 years from now they will be half of all cars produced. Within 50 years I would expect IC to be a collectors item. May be wise to hang onto your current model as they will become a curiosity.

Rick W

[brian eiland]

....An electric motor rated at 50 kW will give the sort of performance of a 150kW IC engine. How much power do you need to cruise continuously at 100kph (the speed limit in most of Australia). So much lighter electric motor than IC.

....You can recover all the energy usually lost to brakes. So scale down the brakes they no longer need to dissipate vast amounts of heat.

....We are now getting a lighter vehicle. Petrol engine in typical city traffic will achieve 20% efficiency if you are lucky. A good electric set up will get around 80% including motor, controller and battery. That means you need only 1/4 of the initial fuel load to do the same job but everything can be made lighter and you have energy recovery so you get considerably better than 4 times for the same energy on board.

....From what I read we will see all electric cars in quantity in about 3 years and maybe 15 years from now they will be half of all cars produced. Within 50 years I would expect IC to be a collectors item. May be wise to hang onto your current model as they will become a curiosity.

Rick W
Now that's the kind of positive thinking we need to go forward. Hey, we put a man on the moon in about the same amount of time we have wasted in Iraq!!

WE CAN DO THIS! We should be tasking some of that brain power and money we spend on 'defense contractors' with solving some of these problems. I mean actually make it worth while for these defense contractors to bid on contacts to help develop some of this technology. And this may be particularly applicable in this current economy where speculative funding is in shorter supply.

When you think back about it, I believe you would have to admit that a lot of our miniaturization of electronics, and computerization came about as a result of the space program, and that has filtered down into MANY technologies we have today.

Politicians like Obama (who is so scientifically challenged, he's a one term president), are the problem, He especially, is a marxist disaster for the USA
Don't be so hard on this guy....give him a chance. It won't happen overnight as he has a WHOLE LOT of stuff on his plate. But he seems to be able to choose some good people to help him, and hopefully there will be many others that he inspires to help him get the job done.

As saddened as I am about America's image over these past 8 years, I am confident in her overall capabilities. And I am hopeful that this guy Obama will spark a Kennedy feeling in our population

Happy NEW YEAR (certainly the outlook here in Washington is far, far, more positive)

[Guest625101138]

........
As saddened as I am about America's image over these past 8 years, I am confident in her overall capabilities. And I am hopeful that this guy Obama will spark a Kennedy feeling in our population

Happy NEW YEAR (certainly the outlook here in Washington is far, far, more positive)

As an outsider I see George dubya as a nice guy on a tough gig. He is able to laugh at himself and seems to make lasting friendships. Would be simply regarded as a nice guy in an easier job.

He has had a massive tilt at freeing the world of misfits determined to hurt others. Hopefully this will become a positive legacy that we will remember his administration for.

I guess there are plenty of negatives that come to mind but I think many of these were set in train much longer ago than 8 years. The mounting debt (OK fighting wars doesn't help), the love affair with fuel guzzlers, the fascination with guns and the destruction they cause, the oppressive airport security and many other oppressive laws that threaten personal freedom etc

I also think that US is now at the forefront of alternative energy if you consider quantity produced rather than by proportion to total energy. Certainly there is a lot of good stuff available there that is not produced elsewhere yet.

Rick W

[colinstone]

The new BMW Mini electric has a 150kw motor - which seems to be completely OTT on the basis that a 50kw elec is equiv to 150kw IC. Doesn't get much range from a back seat load of battery despite brake regeneration. Until elec can get the energy density up, it cannot compete. Hydrogen is more like it, but getting the H is the problem.
I saw a bit of kit in USA on a James May BBC TV programme - "in the deserts of New Mexico, James seeks out some modern-day alchemists, who offer the promise of allowing him to drive his car on petrol conjured out of thin air". Takes sunlight, water and CO2 to produce petrol and oxygen. Each unit, 2.5m dish to catch the sunlight, was producing 3 - 4 litres petrol per day.

[JonathanCole]

Now that's the kind of positive thinking we need to go forward.

Actually positive thinking helps, but a bit of practical engineering would be helpful too. Most electric vehicles proposed are using high voltage batteries made up of small voltage cells (up to 3 volts DC) in series to attain the high voltage. People who work with batteries find out certain fundamental truths. For instance, the battery made of series connected cells is no better than the weakest of them. If one cell has a significantly higher internal resistance than the others, it will heat up an hasten the failure of the whole pack.This is bound to happen in a battery pack made of 100 or more individual cells (such as in the Chevy Volt). Then how do you identify the weak cell and can it be replaced or do you have to replace the whole pack?

Most battery manufacturers say that you should not mix new cells with old as the older weaker cell will reduce te capacity of the new cell. That suggests to me that we need to develop higher voltage cells (such as EEStor) or utilize DC to DC converters to attain the necessary voltages. Interestingly, in a vehicle, the distances between battery and driven components is not far, so the issue of wire size is not critical until you get to the components themselves. There is no fundamental reason I know of why batteries should not be relatively low voltage devices and there are lots of advantages such as safety and heat dissipation. High frequency, DC to DC conversion is very efficient and robust.

If vehicle manufacturers start building electric vehicles that are prone to catastrophic failure because they have not taken the fundamentals into account, we are really up the creek without a paddle, because then all the naysayers will be jumping up and down, gleefully rubbing their hands together as they say, "See, I told you it could never work!!"

[FAST FRED]

"Politicians like Obama (who is so scientifically challenged, he's a one term president), are the problem,"

Politicos are all mostly lawyers , none can think outside self aggrandizement.

A real hassle for govs will be taxing to get the same cash as now.

NO gov budget ever gets cut , just cuts in "projected " growth levels.

Our burning up food to use of alcohol reduces the mileage about by the alcohol content , so 10% of the fuel purchase price is unused for propulsion. But farmers and ADM have huge lobbys.

Many years ago we reduced exhaust emissions by "better" and cleaner burning engines.

That is far in the past and we now pay about 15% in less efficient engines , to appease the "Global Warming" false religion.

The combination adds to about 25% of the govs tax extractions are simply , as usual, the combination of FORCE and FRAUD .

Electric cars may be nice for the Global Warming believers , but will probably be very deer for us users.

But at least we may stop burning the worlds food supply!

FF

[eponodyne]

Brian,

If all else fails, read the instructions and use a calculator. :) :) :)
EEstor mention that for road vehicles, the charging stations will be super capacitors themselves, so that the vehicles will be recharged in a time comparable with filling the tank with petrol or diesel. That's quite an infrastructure that will need to be installed. Of course, there will be a greater need for electricity generation, so there is no free lunch. Coal fired powerstations without CO2 capture will do very well, because AGW is a crock and CO2 is not a problem.

Also, as you will be aware, governments tax fuels and they will therefore charge heavily for the recharging of your supercapacitor powered vehicle. Home charging from a plug in your garage is unlikely to figure much in the calculations, because cables would need to be much thicker to handle the load. A 300 mile range requires a lotta kilowatts.

Politicians like Obama (who is so scientifically challenged, he's a one term president), are the problem, He especially, is a marxist disaster for the USA, but Krudd in Ozland is his willing hand maiden and the EU is so corrupt, I predict the global population will fall by five billion by 2050 AD, unless the IPCC policies are scrapped. Welcome to the big freeze. Did you want to live forever?:(


When you look in the mirror, do you ever stop and think, "I am just completely and totally full of ****?"

Because if you don't you should.

[Pericles]

eponodyne,

You took five days to put your cogent and lucid reply together and you had to swear and you even blaspheme with your signature, not that I actually am concerned about that kind of thing! I would however, appreciate knowing to which paragraph you are objecting. :confused: :) :) :)

BTW, punctuation is the politesse of princes. It's "Because comma if you don't comma you should exclamation mark" Not wot U rote!

[eponodyne]

To what do I refer? Well, all the erroneous facts, the dearly-held notions cherished as actual facts, and the abyssal depths of your lack of compassion for the world around you. Just for starters.

Now I also am going to object to your shock at the blasphemation in my sig: I'm an atheist. Jesus, if he ever existed, was a semi-literate carpenter, had some good ideas, and had a whole cult spring up around him. I don't buy into it... but you can have whatever invisible friend you want if it makes you happy to do so; it's no skin off my ass.

"Marxist disaster." Ohhh, my ribs. That's a good one.

In re the attempt at correcting my grammar, I must of course defer to your superior knowledge of the mother tongue. Mind that you speak English while I speak American. Part of what you object to with my usage of comma could probably be chalked up to regional dialectical variation, if one is willing to accept the concept of the Intertubes as a "region."

[Pericles]

eponodyne,

Good man. I did say I wasn't concerned about your Yeshua bar Jusif comment and I do so, for the same reason.:)
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/qframe.htm

Compassion for the entire world however, is a pointless exercise. The opposite of love is not hate. Both are emotions and as such, are part of the same coin. Indifference is the opposite of love and/or compassion. Indifference is helpful, because if we humans were constantly moved by all the shocking events that occur worldwide, naught would get done. Not feeling every pain is how we survive. As a moot point, recession is when your neighbour loses his job, depression is when you lose your job. :)

As for grammar and punctuation, it just requires some study and an open mind. Don't be handicapped by your supposition that speaking American lets you off continuing to learn. Rectify yourself and enjoy the warm fuzzy feeling of a task well done. :) :)

OTOH, do not get bogged down with this. "English pronunciation is divided into two main accent groups, the rhotic (pronounced /ˈroʊtɪk/) and non-rhotic, depending on when the sound typically represented in spelling with the letter R is pronounced." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonrhotic

Hell's teeth. That's even more than I want to know. :confused: :confused:

Good grief. There's more. Let me out of here. :?: :?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_English_English

[CDK]

What are you up to, guys?
This post is about storing energy, electro-chemical processes, innovation, not about accusing each other of stupidity, religion or qualifications for a man elected by the US people to pull them out of the swamp.

Pericles, your user name suggests wisdom, so resist the temptation to respond to caustic off-topic posts.
We are all entitled to our religions or the lack of one, and we all have opinions about politics. But we must hide both in technical discussions because they cannot possibly make a sensible contribution. If we continue following this path, we may end up quoting Donald Duck to prove our point.

I agree with you that the language on this forum is sometimes maltreated to the point where it hurts the eye, especially by authors in English speaking regions of this planet. But that tells us something about their level of education and helps in rating their opinions. Let it be!

[FAST FRED]

This post is about storing energy, electro-chemical processes, innovation, not about accusing each other of stupidity, religion or qualifications for a man elected by the US people to pull them out of the swamp.


The problem , as always is WHO PAYS? for whatever the "answer" to some created problem is.


Left alone the free market will make the decision of weather oil or coal or ??? will be the power source of the future.

The religous LEFT wants burorats to force a "solution" based on their personal hate agendas.

The argument as usual is weather the market (as unfree as it is ) or Force and Fraud ,( government ) will decide on weather we must row our boats or not.

FF

[Pericles]

Charging batteries requires fuel use, which is politically charged. :D :D
Society is being lied to by politicians.
Politicians are the problem.
Lose the politicos.
Sun shines.
All ok.
Yes.
:p

[brian eiland]

What are you up to, guys?
This post is about storing energy, electro-chemical processes, innovation, not about accusing each other of stupidity, religion or qualifications for a man elected by the US people to pull them out of the swamp.

Pericles, your user name suggests wisdom, so resist the temptation to respond to caustic off-topic posts.
We are all entitled to our religions or the lack of one, and we all have opinions about politics. But we must hide both in technical discussions because they cannot possibly make a sensible contribution. If we continue following this path, we may end up quoting Donald Duck to prove our point.

I agree with you that the language on this forum is sometimes maltreated to the point where it hurts the eye, especially by authors in English speaking regions of this planet. But that tells us something about their level of education and helps in rating their opinions. Let it be!
Thank you CDK, I 've seen a few too many forum subjects get sent off track. I think that's why we have this, the Drivel Thread (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/open-discussion/drivel-thread-17986.html).

So please, lets work towards tracking solutions to the technology at hand.

[SheetWise]

Charging batteries requires fuel use, which is politically charged. :D :D
Society is being lied to by politicians.
Politicians are the problem.
Lose the politicos.
Sun shines.
All ok.
Yes.
:p

Yes. It's an incredibly politically charged issue.

[masalai]

here is the "politics" thread :D:D:D http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/open-discussion/global-politics-economics-lies-witchcraft-22206-127.html

[brian eiland]

I just happened across this interesting website that is devoted to the subject of ultracapacitors

Ultracapacitors.org
http://www.ultracapacitors.org/index.php

This EEStor group really appears to be moving right along with a production plant inbuild

Also found this discussion of interest:
Carbon Aerogel & Ultracapacitors
I was wondering what new developments might have occurred with these technologies. Regrettably I've been away from the forms for awhile.

So what's new??

[masalai]

Not much in batteries except that GM (is it) USA is going to be a heavy user of Lithium for their new car http://financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/mills/2009/0330.html and spiral wound AGM may be what I will be using - not needed for 10 months?... I am weight conscious - which is a minus for AGM and also price averse for all, which leaves rubber bands or human power:D:D:D

I am looking for a small (light) efficient diesel DC genset such as http://www.onsitepower.com.au/products/marine/dc722m.htm but giving a bit more power ie 8000w at 48v nominal to charge maintain power for 2 x 4.0 R motors http://www.torqeedoaustralia.com/Torqeedo_Australia/Products.html - - I may even settle for 2 x 5000W or so chargers for redundancy...

[masalai]

Here is some GOOD NEWS,

for those of you, who, like me, are looking for electrical storage systems for their boats and other mobile devices.... http://financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/mills/2009/0413.html and I presume worthy investment options to consider for the long-term...

I hope that developments in these areas will make the battery option for the storage of (electrical) energy, more economically viable...

[SheetWise]

Here is some GOOD NEWS,

Can you name the last two technological advancements that were a result of government intervention in markets?

There are thousands of independent free market developers working on these problems, and solutions will be found in spite of the governments efforts, not because of them.

[masalai]

Not the last two, but Australia seems to occasionally support innovation, then, when production or next step funding is sought, industry here seems to lack the aptitude to recognise something worthy and production goes overseas (in the past - often to USA) - a big one was the airlines "black box" - - actually an orange/yellow box, which came from Australia.. and I have a feeling cochlea had some support in OZ but I am not sure... - My motive for posting was relevance to a possible need and, for a change, was positive and not the usual hype & lies....

[capt vimes]

there are a lot of inovations coming in the near future due to the higher demand of our 'mobile' society and the foreseeable lack of oil.

one just recently (march this year) published inovation came from the MIT:
http://www.nature.com/news/2009/090311/full/news.2009.156.html
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v458/n7235/abs/nature07853.html

this does not provide higher storage capabilities but an enourmous reduction in charging time. cell phone batteries with an charging time of ~6-10 min have been fully charged within seconds.....
licenses have been given to 2 companys so far, so there is the posibility that we have those types of batteries on the market within the next 2-3 years.

reduction in charging time = reduction of time running the generator (provided the generator has enough output) = less diesel... am i right?

[SheetWise]

My motive for posting was relevance to a possible need and, for a change, was positive and not the usual hype & lies....

Anyone with money can direct the use of resources, and the application of existing technologies -- but if it's not their money, it's almost certainly going to result in malinvestment. Markets are extremely quick to adopt solutions that make economic sense -- governments only adopt solutions that make political sense.

What I read in that advertisement is nothing but hype and lies. I don't see any positive note. With the knowledge that Li-ion is going to be artificially supported as a solution and its cost subsidized, we can safely predict that alternative solutions will be made relatively more expensive and their market entry will be delayed. The government will therefore distort the economic realities and delay advancement -- as they always do.

[Guest62110524]

Not the last two, but Australia seems to occasionally support innovation, then, when production or next step funding is sought, industry here seems to lack the aptitude to recognise something worthy and production goes overseas (in the past - often to USA) - a big one was the airlines "black box" - - actually an orange/yellow box, which came from Australia.. and I have a feeling cochlea had some support in OZ but I am not sure... - My motive for posting was relevance to a possible need and, for a change, was positive and not the usual hype & lies....
was not so long ago that you told this place you had commissioned this build?
So if I rang Bob and asked him had you? what would he say?
Not a bad boat that, flush decks a real plus
yes think will call ole Bob a la matin

[brian eiland]

Can you name the last two technological advancements that were a result of government intervention in markets?

There are thousands of independent free market developers working on these problems, and solutions will be found in spite of the governments efforts, not because of them.

What I read in that advertisement is nothing but hype and lies. I don't see any positive note. With the knowledge that Li-ion is going to be artificially supported as a solution and its cost subsidized, we can safely predict that alternative solutions will be made relatively more expensive and their market entry will be delayed. The government will therefore distort the economic realities and delay advancement -- as they always do.
You have some valid points there Sheetwise, but there are some very positive developments that come out of DARPA and our National Research Labs.

The economics will drive the development more quickly in our US system, and I was really hoping that the big increase in fuel prices would be a big boost. As they dropped off, the rush to build these new technologies may have lost some momentum. But those high fuel prices will return in short order, and meanwhile the fellows who kept after new technologies will be leading the charge.

Lets hope the government involvement does not distort the equation by favoring one tech (particularly Li-ion) over the others as happened with our ethanol adoption as an alternative fuel....foolishness.

[brian eiland]

In the recent Apr/May issue of Professional Boatbuilder there was an article entitled, The Real McCoy, and dealing with the development of a Hybrid Diesel-Electric Charter Vessel.

Hybrid Diesel Electric art ProBoat
http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/e20090405/
(go to the index and click on Real McCoy article)

In that article there was a subsection dealing with the development of what they are calling ARC Lite batteries. (page42).
Interesting development

(I'm not that impressed with the rest of the vessel as a whole, but it sure shows a quest for experimentation and developments from the 'little independent guys')

[masalai]

Thanks Brian, a very interesting article - looks like a good potential there... It would be nice to see those batteries on the market soon as the present option seems to be spiral-wound AGM...

The full article is great, Thanks - pity it cannot be printed/saved offline for future reference (or even have a direct link to the article)...

[brian eiland]

...The full article is great, Thanks - pity it cannot be printed/saved offline for future reference (or even have a direct link to the article)...
In a few months I believe the ProBoat issues becomes more readily available on their website to the general public? It is easier to dissect the article if you have it in a printed form before you.

I know if you are a subscriber you can select those pages of the article (pages 41 thru 51) and print them out.

[brian eiland]

Altairnano, a leader in advanced energy storage systems for clean, efficient power and energy management, recently launched a significantly enhanced website focusing on its core technology solutions and strategic initiatives.

As a leader in advanced energy storage systems for clean, efficient power and energy management, Altairnano’s suite of advanced lithium-ion energy storage systems is helping solve today’s toughest power and energy challenges. From helping create a more reliable, resilient, and efficient electricity grid, to accelerating the adoption of renewable generation and alternative fuel vehicles, Altairnano combines science and innovation with market-ready solutions to achieve sustainable, and economically sensible, power and energy management practices.

Our unique, innovative approach starts at the electro-chemical level.

Altairnano is the first company to replace traditional graphite materials used in conventional lithium-ion batteries with a proprietary, nano-structured lithium titanate – a process that delivers distinctive performance attributes, including power, fast charge/discharge rates, high round-trip efficiencies, long cycle life, safety, and ability to operate under extreme temperatures.

This science is the fundamental building block applied to every advanced energy storage system and battery we build today.

The company's advanced lithium-ion energy storage systems can help solve today's toughest power and energy challenges, including a more reliable, resilient, and efficient electricity grid. The new website features overviews and additional information for the company's five core solutions: Smart Grid, renewable integration, remote UPS, military and transportation.
Go to Solutions (http://www.b2i.us/profiles/investor/fullpage.asp?f=1&BzID=546&to=cp&Nav=0&LangID=1&s=0&ID=10695)

[Guest625101138]

I was looking through the various lithium battery contenders. The ones I have followed are:
1. These are developing strong reputation-
http://www.a123systems.com/
2. I have actually seen these in the flesh-
http://lithiumenergy.jp/en/products/index.html
3. Then there is Altairnano but you have to wonder where they are going-
http://www.b2i.us/profiles/investor/ResLibraryView.asp?BzID=546&ResLibraryID=28895&Category=1567
Although their batteries look good.
4. You have to think China will be making good value batteries-
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/04/china-wants-to-become-electric-cars-hybrids-world-leader.php

Then I wondered why US has been so tardy with EVs. I have heard of the linked documentary but not gone through it before. It will take about 90 minutes to go through all 10 parts. The voice sync is good in most of it but some real bad parts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FDmmJm9vSA&feature=related

After looking through this you really need to wonder whether the US car manufacturers deserve tax payer bail outs!!!

I wonder where batteries could be if they were given genuine support.

Rick W

[masalai]

twice as good and half the price and available in many configurations - getting cheaper and better, quicker than the dollar can fall (even if the dollar was made of led paper):D:D:D:D

[aztek]

hi
i hav don some work (school project) on future fuel sources these 4 r the most promising-
-solar cells (dye based-2x the energy 1/2 the price)
-4th generation (mayB 3rd) 'oilgae'
--->hydrogen fuel cells<--
-biofuels (crops 2 oil)
Aztek

[masalai]

aztek, welcome to boatdesign.net, thank you for your post - links are always helpful when introducing particular news/products, and unless you are using txt messages from your cellphone to interact, those abbreviations are usually frowned upon:D

There are/may be threads specifically related to those products - use the search engine in the bar near the top of the page (it is powered by google and there are two search options try for threads and the top input panel, then if no result try "posts" option and changing the key-words)...

[brian eiland]

April 2007

Work at MIT's Laboratory for Electromagnetic and Electronic Systems (LEES) on increasing the storage capacity of ultracapacitors may be demonstrated in the next few months, Prof. Joel E. Schindall told Le Figaro newspaper on 13 April.

Capacitors store energy as an electrical field, making them more efficient than standard batteries, which get their energy from chemical reactions. Ultracapacitors are capacitor-based storage cells that provide quick, massive bursts of instant energy. They are sometimes used in fuel-cell vehicles to provide an extra burst for accelerating into traffic and climbing hills, but need to be much larger than batteries to hold the same charge.

The LEES invention would increase the storage capacity of existing commercial ultracapacitors by storing electrical fields at the atomic level. Although ultracapacitors have been around since the 1960s, they are relatively expensive and only recently began being manufactured in sufficient quantities to become cost-competitive.

To date, despite their inherent advantages -- a 10-year-plus lifetime, indifference to temperature change, high immunity to shock and vibration and high charging and discharging efficiency -- physical constraints on electrode surface area and spacing have limited ultracapacitors to an energy storage capacity around 25 times less than a similarly sized lithium-ion battery.

The LEES ultracapacitor has the capacity to overcome this energy limitation by using vertically aligned, single-wall carbon nanotubes -- one thirty-thousandth the diameter of a human hair and 100,000 times as long as they are wide. It would reportedly permit ultracapacitors to give a car a 160 km range on electric power, and reduce energy storage units by two thirds in weight and 75% in size by comparison with existing nickel-metal hydride units as used by Toyota’s Prius.

MIT’s work on this project, first announced in late 2005, has been funded in part by the MIT/Industry Consortium on Advanced Automottive Electrical/Electronic Components and Systems and in part by a grant from the Ford-MIT Alliance.

this document is a little dated, but it points us in one direction I find quite exciting

[brian eiland]

Just for fun have a look at this photo of 'in the works' research :) :confused:

MIT Builds Efficient Nanowire Storage to Replace Car Batteries
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/4252623.html

...however there is some interesting information in the text of this article and a look at some of the hurdles ahead.

[Boston]

some fool figured out if you hook up a thermo electric chip to a high enough temp diference it will run in reverse and produce energy
that means that theoretically at least if the water temp is different than the air temp you can produce juice by heat sinking to both
kinda cool eh

[Landlubber]

Here is a new one that I have just found out about, sounds very interesting, first time I have seen anything that can be cheaper than the grid system.

http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/305052/

Keeping my fingers crossed.

[masalai]

Two please - - "...Ceramatec says its new generation of battery would deliver a continuous flow of 5 kilowatts of electricity over four hours, with 3,650 daily discharge/recharge cycles over 10 years. With the batteries expected to sell in the neighborhood of $2,000, that translates to less than 3 cents per kilowatt hour over the battery's life. ..." - - but when the exchange rate is a bit more favourable - does anyone know of any adverse issues and weight & size and DC voltage? (I need 48VDC)... - - That is a 20KW/H capacity? each - phew!!!

[Boston]

does anyone know of any adverse issues and weight & size

ya at $2000 a crack my wallet is going to be significantly smaller and lighter than it is now

whats the recharge time
( battery not wallet )
B

[KalleA]

According to the article, a 40 kWh battery would cost 2.000 USD. That's 50 USD per kWh, to be compared with Lithium at 1.000 to 1.500 USD per kWh. In comparison, dirt cheap.

They also mention that they are well in excess of 200 Wh/kg, which is twice as efficient/energy dense as today's Lithium.

If they can bring it to market with these qualities, it will be a true quantum leap. One can only wait, see and hope...

Cheers

[masalai]

The same capacity in spiral wound AGM, cost appears to be not much different? and by the looks Ceramatec may be a heck of a lot lighter.. and smaller:D:D and on a cat THAT MATTERS....

[CDK]

Two please - - "...Ceramatec says its new generation of battery would deliver a continuous flow of 5 kilowatts of electricity over four hours, with 3,650 daily discharge/recharge cycles over 10 years. With the batteries expected to sell in the neighborhood of $2,000, that translates to less than 3 cents per kilowatt hour over the battery's life. ..." - - but when the exchange rate is a bit more favourable - does anyone know of any adverse issues and weight & size and DC voltage? (I need 48VDC)... - - That is a 20KW/H capacity? each - phew!!!

It may be that we are on the brink of a whole new era, but until such products have been tested and available ex warehouse, it all sounds a bit like Star Trek talk to me.
Recently I saw a TV news item about a Dutch company that claims to have developed a low rpm 50 KW electric motor with a weight of just 14,5 kg. I am familiar with the country, even the farmer's village that is mentioned as the company address...... Hardly a place for breakthrough technology.

Could it be that such stories are only intended to attract investors?

[Landlubber]

CDK,

Could be, but that also laughed at the Wright Bros when they said they could fly........someone has to do it, we have to just keep looking and learning.

[Boston]

funny thing is you guys are both right on
there are phonies every which way you turn
and there are break throughs coming down the pipe every day
its sorting out the hype from the real deal thats a full time job

[masalai]

I had concerns about Sodium - and further research tells me it is VERY reactive with water - that makes me kinda nervous.... break the membrane and ...................

[Landlubber]

Do not ever play withh Sodium, not for boys toys.

It will eat through you and keep on going........serious.

[masalai]

That is similar to what I read so are those new batteries "fraught with danger" to put it mildly?

[brian eiland]

Here is a new one that I have just found out about, sounds very interesting, first time I have seen anything that can be cheaper than the grid system.

http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/305052/

You might go back and read this article again. I believe you will find that this tech is not aimed at the boating market, but rather homes (in the basement). Some excerpts:


In the years since, electric cars have remained on the sexy-tech list, with substantial industry efforts aimed at developing various flavors of zippy batteries to power them. Ceramatec had other ideas, recognizing a vast potential market for a different sort of power -- for homes.

"With a house, you don't need to get energy in and out instantaneously. You need huge amounts of storage capacity," says MIT's Nocera. "That suggests a different commercial market and different technical restraints and opportunities."


This is where the earth moves for renewable energy. The new electrolyte enables the development of an energy-dense, inexpensive and safe storage battery for use at home. Combined with the rapidly emerging thin-film solar cells, it presents an unparalleled business opportunity.

Contrasting with Ceramatec's vision of many small home-based power centers with refrigerator-size batteries, this project is another mainframe -- albeit fueled by wind

The long-term impact of home electric generation for a power company's business model could be huge. After all, you can't stay in business if nobody's paying for power. Exactly how that will play out remains to be seen.


...and this is not out on a farmer's village **:
Ceramatec was founded in 1976 by a group of University of Utah professors who made important contributions to the sodium-sulphur battery technology being pursued by Ford Motor Company for vehicles at the time. Those early liquid-core batteries didn't pan out well for transportation, though, because of their size and weight, and because of the extremely harsh internal chemical conditions required for them to work.

The prize is the culmination of 10 years of research and testing -- a new generation of deep-storage battery that's small enough, and safe enough, to sit in your basement and power your home.

It promises to nudge the world to a paradigm shift as big as the switch from centralized mainframe computers in the 1980s to personal laptops. But this time the mainframe is America's antiquated electrical grid; and the switch is to personal power stations in millions of individual homes.


**Not to disparage against developments 'out on the farm', often there are very inventive people working in their own little back shops. I think Micros0ft got it start in a garage atmosphere.

[brian eiland]

A few recent presentations concerning this technology

http://www.ewww.energeticstechnologies.com/?gclid=CP27rJ-IrZoCFRYpFQodQm8DcA

[JonathanCole]

This looks promising;
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2009/05/canadian-research-team-reports-major-breakthrough-in-lithium-battery-technology

[brian eiland]

RENO, Nev. – May 28, 2009 – Altair Nanotechnologies Inc. (Altairnano) (Nasdaq: ALTI), a leading provider of energy storage systems for clean, efficient power and energy management, today announced a $3.8 million contract award from the Office of Naval Research (ONR). This award is for the continued research and design of Altairnano's large-scale nano lithium titanate energy-storage systems for possible use as an uninterruptible power supply (UPS) on Navy ships.

"Our advanced battery technology is advancing the quest for a safe, less costly and environmentally friendlier substitute for fossil-fuel burning turbines," said Terry M. Copeland, Ph.D., Altairnano's president and chief executive officer. "The design and development of a 500-kW energy-storage unit paves the way for the Navy to dramatically change how vessels respond to requirements for efficient, redundant, and safe power availability. Given the number of ships to which Altairnano's technology could be applied, this electrical storage and rapid power delivery system could reduce the Navy's fuel consumption by tens of millions of gallons each year."

On Navy vessels today, two gas-turbine generators are kept online to guarantee power availability. An Altairnano battery solution provides the ability to run only one turbine at a more efficient capacity. If there is a problem with the primary generator, the Altairnano UPS would provide enough power to allow a second generator to be started and put online, avoiding the cost of keeping two generators running continuously. It is estimated the fuel cost savings alone would near $1 million per vessel for a six-month cruise.

This contract, the continuation of an earlier award announced in 2008, is for the additional engineering, design, and testing of Altairnano's advanced battery systems for use on Navy ships. The second phase of this contract includes construction and delivery of a 500-kW energy-storage unit for operational testing by ONR. During this phase Altairnano will produce this unit for performance testing, smaller-scale modules for safety testing and conduct other cell, safety and ship integration studies. The engagement starts immediately with contract completion anticipated by July 1, 2010.

...also look back to posting #3, #55, #61, #123

[masalai]

I await without holding my breath - external problems lie ahead - imminent collapse of US economy due to Comex fraud and massive naked short positions which fall due for delivery all too soon....

[mydauphin]

Masalai, US economy and World Economy is a constant rise or fall. But we will survive and the tide will rise gain. Fortunately for me, I was born in previous rising tide. Unfortunately, for my children, they will live most of their younger lives in a falling tide.

That is just the way it is. If someone tries to control it, they will fail and it will be worse. Inflation is coming, that is not all bad. It is the tide that forgive debts. It also destroys it. It will be a different world in 5 years. It will be different again in 15 years. Yes, years....

As far as technology, I have seem technological hope rise and fall at least three times in my life. In 1975 everyone thought we would have a base on the Moon and have gone to Mars by 2001. No one thought of Satellite tv, PCs or Cell phones, internet, CD, video, these where something out of Star-Trek. Then 15 years later they where commonplace. Today many have never lived without them. Anyway the marketplace of demand and supply will produce the next great products. Along the way many will fail, many are scams, and some will be commonplace. The next cell phone could be around the corner.
The low economic tide will delay everything and bring the hucksters out...

[masalai]

So true, what gets my goat is that we (humanity) never seem to learn from earlier errors/mistakes/stupidity etc. - - with the all to common rejoinder being "...we have things better organised this time so no problems...", but the **** still finds the fan and splatters everywhere it did last time :D:D:D:D - Viewed from some distance the issues and errors, it seems that a child should see what is wrong... Australia is worse, as with the better overall vision afforded by some distance - we seem to slavishly follow the US lead, having witnessed the absurdity of the failing concept, applied just months earlier.... Humans are sometimes just too bloody stupid (me included)... History does repeat and follow previous bad examples with stunning accuracy...

I just get frustrated, as, in my research I can see what is happening, - - and what should be done, - - and am all too aware of the endemic corruption and cartel like behaviour of what I call the "money controllers" are doing, - - all they can to squeeze the last dime from the trusting citizenry in the name of selfish/personal greed and motivated by an urge to control the world... (I often add a bit of story line, - as, - in cold hard facts is too bloody scary and painful...)

I had a "PC" made as a kit/bits & pieces in '76 - and started my degree studies in '77 (information processing it was then called) - My first bought box had a z80 cpu and 512K of page mode RAM and was an Amstrad pcw9512 and had a paper white screen, CPM OS with 2 x 3" fdd OS was 78K and Office suite was FANTASTIC for its day with a relational database, wisiwig (sort of), spell-check, spreadsheet and incredibly effective intuitive design - That OS & office programmed by nerds in Assembler - fast and efficient - not like today's retarded rubbish... fond memories....

[mydauphin]

My first "PC" was a Radio Shack Model I.... 1k ram. upgraded later 4k... Then built my own in a cardboard box modified Commodore pet/vic20/c64 , I think blew more things up than got working..

My first computer job was Samsung CPM z80 64k ram, we programmed a large business MIS in basic....

Like they say today my cell phone is more powerful than all the computers in US combine at that time....

Humanity has no cure, because we repeat the same mistake. Our children will suffer from the same things again....

Oh, by the way electric car can before the gasoline car....
What is old is new again....
Diesel was an old concept and it is coming back
Next will be two strokes, steam engines and coal to heat our homes

What the heck does this have to do with batteries.... I don't know - but I wonder if the new kids on the block really know the physics or chemistries needed to create anything new. Or they just dream of future without the knowledge, or will, to make it happen...

[masalai]

Oh sorry did not read the topic header - Well I am still looking and found nothing economically viable YET so will probably go with Optima Yellow top D34/78, 2 banks of 4, one under the aft port berth and the other under the aft starboard berth, but that could change as they will not be needed for 6 or so months - when fitout is nearing completion and launch date is close...

I am toying with the idea of using annealed and insulated copper water pipe as the alternative to tinned "welding" cables to feed the electric motors and charging from the solar panels and diesel engined generator... Any comments? please post on my build (link below - in "signature") Thanks

[brian eiland]

..What the heck does this have to do with batteries.... I don't know - but I wonder if the new kids on the block really know the physics or chemistries needed to create anything new. Or they just dream of future without the knowledge, or will, to make it happen...
I'm holding out hope that there are kids who really want to learn, and they will help us into these new technologies. I just happen to have a Thai stepson who has won himself a scholarship to study physics here in the USA. He's just completed Prep school in Conn, and now will go onto WPI in Mass. He's told me he wants to study this energy storage technology. And he puts forth that very extra effort to study a difficult subject, as well as conquer the English language simultaneously.

When I look at roll models like our new President, and the new Supreme Court nominee, and the backgrounds from which they rose, I'm greatly encouraged.

[Frosty]

Necessity is the mother of inventions and when the Government really wants us to go electric they will give some serious tax incentives.

Then the improvements will come,--- this will be timed with max profit opportunities such as small improvement yearly so we buy small improvements not knowing that large improvements actually exist.

Bit like mobile telephone manufacturers.

[Brent Swain]

After asking the BC government , who claimed to be going green, " Where are our tax expemptions for solar panels, wind generators , sailboats and sails, as even if one motors everywhere in a sailboa, it will still use a fraction the fuel of a powerboat hull."
I received several emails from one of their bureucrats saying they are already exempt if you buy a whole setup, regaredless of what you already have , if you fill out a lot of forms and applications. I asked why one doesn't even get asked for the tax when buying a loaf of bread, yet you dont get the same deal with energy saving devices.
Then I got an email from the energy minister saying " Thanks for the suggestion of tax exemptions for energy saving devices. We'll consider that." After having been telling me that they already were exempt (none of the retailers were aware of any exemptions)
What a bunch of lying hippocrites. So I sent the emails to the opposition, but the issue was never raised, as far as I know.
They should all be PST and GST exempt. With out that, non of the governing politicoes has any credibility on green issues.
Brent

[BertKu]

That dutch company most likely made a motor with a higher frequency as 50 Hz, probably 1000 or 2000 Herz. Automatically the size will be smaller and the weight less. As long they kept the ax the correct size, I don't see this at all as a new invention. The prnciple of using higher frequencies to gain a weight advantage is very well known.
If they made a DC motor, there are lately magnetic materials which has 100 fold stronger magnetisme then 20 years ago for the same weight and size and as such that company may have been able to reduce weight in that way.

[CDK]

That dutch company most likely made a motor with a higher frequency as 50 Hz, probably 1000 or 2000 Herz. Automatically the size will be smaller and the weight less. As long they kept the ax the correct size, I don't see this at all as a new invention. The prnciple of using higher frequencies to gain a weight advantage is very well known.
If they made a DC motor, there are lately magnetic materials which ar 100 fold stronger magnetisme then 20 yeras ago and as such they may have been able to reduce weight in that way.

The TV news item mentioned a motor that could be incorporated in the wheel hub and would also be used as a brake, so a DC motor is most likely.
My knowledge isn't up to date, the most powerful magnetic material I am familiar with is of the rare earth type, like Samarium-Cobalt. Are there really permanent magnets 100 times stronger than that?

[BertKu]

The TV news item mentioned a motor that could be incorporated in the wheel hub and would also be used as a brake, so a DC motor is most likely.
My knowledge isn't up to date, the most powerful magnetic material I am familiar with is of the rare earth type, like Samarium-Cobalt. Are there really permanent magnets 100 times stronger than that?

Maybe we should ask Epcos. They just brought a new ferrite material N95 on the market from their factory in Austria. Although this is a ferrite material used for switchmode powersupplies, I do know,that they also have permanent magnetic ferrite material for militair applications. The problem is that they are not allowed to give details away. Pity. In statistics , one can always manupulate figures. I don't know in what way the 100 fold will refer to, weight, size, grain, magnetisme. The article did not refer to specifics.

By the way. I just came back from Europe and I read an article that the dutch in Friesland. Holland will reduce emisions to zero by 2020 for yachts. They basically can only go the electric way. I cannot see that any diesel or gasoline engine will after 200 hours will have zero emission.

[BertKu]

I am just reading an article in German about a test done on a hybrid 27 motoryacht versus a Vetus 33 Hp dieselmotor. Very impressive and motivating. Freely translated, the same 27 feet Kent hybrid egine had to reduce power from 7,5 kw to 6 kw as it already had archieved the maximum speed with 6 kw, while the 24 Kw Vetus-diesel engine at approx 80% outputpower did the same speed. The article stated that by 6 Kw it had a "zugkraft" of 290 kg , while a 24 Kw strong diesel only made the boat moving a little bit faster. Info: www.wetterwille.nl and "Wassersport in Nederland 01/2009"

[BertKu]

I am in 2 mind. Do I make my boat with a hybrid or do I go electric only all the way. I am busy to make a 6 meter boat and gamble that in 2 years time EESu 24 Volt batteries at present quoted price of USA dollar 65.20 will have materialized. The quoted price is for quantities larger than I need for my boat.
They quote: Super Capacitor
24 Volt output voltage DC 0,5%
Weight 2,2 Kg
Energy storage 26,7 Amperehours !!!!!
100% deepcycle for 10x6 times (1 million deepcycle discharge/charge !!)
-40 to +49 degree Celcius ( this could be a problem, I am not planning to cruize on the South pole only)

Am I correct in calculating 24 Volt battery, means 12 Volt average x 26.7 Amperehours = 320,4 Watthours i.e. for 10 hours and 2 x 6 Kw motors I need thus 38 x 10 = 380 batteries at approx USA dollar 70 = USA dollar 26600
Which should give me sufficinet pleasure for the rest of my life.

However I am very concernned about fire. If I have Diesel equivalent to 121 Kilowatthour energy on board, it is quite safe, maybe smelly, but safe.
A short circuit or seawater spillage over the terminals down under in the boat could be a diffrent sort of "smell" .
What is your views on hybrid or full electric????
Much obliged for your inputs.

[masalai]

Write a PM to Manie, Fanie or Wynand as they are all saffas... for my 2 cents

Possibly around September 09 - give or take a year, the US economy will collapse in a heap of despair.... Hedge your bets build what you can NOW, and put sails, solar (PV) panels, a small diesel charger that will happily use other vegetable oils, keep it light overall (cat of trimaran configuration) and something like Torqeedo electric legs which give a modest velocity from twin 4000W 48VDC motors.... If better batteries show up and you have the money that could be your choice but remember Oil is a finite resource and vegetable oil will be difficult to get as it is also a food, so days of big powerboats will be numbered to not much more than 5 or 10 years if the global economy picks up if not there will be shortages as no demand because of no money.... See my links below for what I am building...

[CDK]

I am in 2 mind. Do I make my boat with a hybrid or do I go electric only all the way. I am busy to make a 6 meter boat and gamble that in 2 years time EESu 24 Volt batteries at present quoted price of USA dollar 65.20 will have materialized. The quoted price is for quantities larger than I need for my boat.
They quote: Super Capacitor
24 Volt output voltage DC 0,5%
Weight 2,2 Kg
Energy storage 26,7 Amperehours !!!!!
100% deepcycle for 10x6 times (1 million deepcycle discharge/charge !!)
-40 to +49 degree Celcius ( this could be a problem, I am not planning to cruize on the South pole only)

Am I correct in calculating 24 Volt battery, means 12 Volt average x 26.7 Amperehours = 320,4 Watthours i.e. for 10 hours and 2 x 6 Kw motors I need thus 38 x 10 = 380 batteries at approx USA dollar 70 = USA dollar 26600
Which should give me sufficinet pleasure for the rest of my life.

However I am very concernned about fire. If I have Diesel equivalent to 121 Kilowatthour energy on board, it is quite safe, maybe smelly, but safe.
A short circuit or seawater spillage over the terminals down under in the boat could be a diffrent sort of "smell" .
What is your views on hybrid or full electric????
Much obliged for your inputs.

I haven't seen the battery specs, but for a marketable product based on capacitor technology there must be a switch mode regulator integrated in the device, so the output voltage remains constant. In that case your calculation should be based on 24 volts, not 12.
If they offer just the super-capacitor and 24 is the working voltage only a small part of the energy storage can be used, unless you are satisfied with a system that only has 6 volts left when the battery has lost 3/4 of it's charge.

There should also be specifications concerning the maximum discharge current. That is dictated by the size of the power take-off terminals in the capacitor. Shorting such a device (without the switch mode regulator) will result in a Big Bang, probably with lethal consequences.
Masalai's advice to stick to currently available technology sound wise to me.

[BertKu]

Thank you Masalai and CDK. You both are probably right. However the specs are displayed on a page after I searched for EESTOR via Yahoo "EESTOR Gets a Trademark Patent on EESU and provide" .

It is not clear whether the 24 Volt is kept constant or like a capacitor goes down, or that they with Buck technology and switching technology keep it reasonable flat. I just took a gamble and halved the voltage to be on the save side. If it is true that 24 x 26,7 Amperhours = 0,64 Kwhr of energy is held in 2,2 Kg of weight, not only save I myself USA dollar 12000 but also the weight is then only +/- 420 kG.\
But you are probably right, those super capacitors can handle charging and discharging currents of 3000 Ampere each and I would like to stay alive.

Back to older proven technology. I have a boatplan from New Zealand for a 29 feet sailingyacht. I probably carry on with that one.

The Hollanders have already sold production quantities on Hybrids since 2002. I will ask for a quote on the smallest one they have to offer and use that on this design.

It will take me in anyway 2 years to build the boat and with the Obama administartion keen to improve Nickel Metal Hybrid technology, by that time I probably will have a choice between a Super Capicitors and NiMH battery.

Thanks again to both of you

[Guest625101138]

The TV news item mentioned a motor that could be incorporated in the wheel hub and would also be used as a brake, so a DC motor is most likely.
My knowledge isn't up to date, the most powerful magnetic material I am familiar with is of the rare earth type, like Samarium-Cobalt. Are there really permanent magnets 100 times stronger than that?

There have been considerable advancement in motor/controller technology in the last couple of years. The permanent magnet synchronous motors are beautifully simple engineering. I have a few of them ranging in size from 50W to 4.5kW.

This video clip is the latest one I have that I have set up for a couple of purposes (it will take a minute or two for the clip to download - turn your sound on):
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/31941d1242956976-pedal-boat-design-turnigy_motor.wmv
The motor weighs 149 grams, can produce over 600W and cost USD24. It turns over the little belt reduction with only 2W. I have since added another reduction stage with a larger toothed belt so I can run a full size boat with it and this takes 6W to turn over at a few hundred rpm. This motor should get my boat up to 9kts or so with a battery that can supply the required current.

This combination of motor and controller is capable of regenerative braking down to low speed.

They are called "outrunner" motors because the casing actually spins - you can observe this if you look closely at the clip. I guess this helps cooling. They are synchronous motors so no slip and have very low winding resistance. The controllers have the in-built ability to adjust to different motors so they operate at optimum efficiency through the speed range. Some of these motors get efficiency as high as 93%.

The range of Turnigy SK motors is shown here:
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_listCategoriesAndProducts.asp?catname=%3Ci%3ETURNIGY+SK%3C%2Fi%3E&idCategory=250&ParentCat=59

The large PMSM motors use phase locking with field monitoring but it is not needed for boating applications. You do not need fine speed control at low rpm. A 20HP diesel needs to be producing 16HP to deliver the same torque that my 4.5kW Mars motor will produce at standstill. Makes sense for a car but not for a boat because the torque required to just turn a prop over at low rpm is very low.

Rick W

[Frosty]

Write a PM to Manie, Fanie or Wynand as they are all saffas... for my 2 cents

Possibly around September 09 - give or take a year, the US economy will collapse in a heap of despair.... so days of big powerboats will be numbered to not much more than 5 or 10 years if the global economy picks up if not there will be shortages as no demand because of no money....

What?--- this is terrible news, but but I thought the world had more oil than its used so far.

I wish all you guys would go and get solar panels and the like and then we diesel guys can carry on with cheap diesel.

Mas ,-- will I get married ? will I meet a dark tall stranger?

I was watching Star Trek last night and there is some radiation that even the star ship Enterprise didnt have. Data explained that we did not have it yet but the Romulins did. So if we can get some of that before this Sept we may not be in such trouble.

[BertKu]

This video clip is the latest one I have that I have set up for a couple of purposes (it will take a minute or two for the clip to download - turn your sound on):
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/att...nigy_motor.wmv
The motor weighs 149 grams, can produce over 600W and cost USD24. It turns over the little belt reduction with only 2W. I have since added another reduction stage with a larger toothed belt so I can run a full size boat with it and this takes 6W to turn over at a few hundred rpm. This motor should get my boat up to 9kts or so with a battery that can supply the required current.

Hi Rick,

I went into a website : "http://www.bellmann.nu" and the high pitch noise in your movie confirmed in what they said about this kind of motor. Click on "english flag" click on technical and go down to various motors they are using for their electric systems. Their systems are not cheap.

BertKu

[masalai]

BertKu, - - Your link does not work? - - You must copy and paste the full address - the system will truncate, but if you copy the truncated address it will be truncated and NOT WORK.... - - - one cannot get more power out of nothing, at best efficient use of that power... See the Cruise models here http://www.torqeedo.com/us/hn/home.html - My sail-boat is 39ft x 21 ft cat weighing 4500kg ready to depart on an extended voyage, with 2 x 4.0-R electric outboards giving about 5 knots in calm waters.... Get real and you will not be disappointed... Continuous rating is 2000W each....

Bert, to let the boatdesign.net system make a web address active, remove the "quotes" and add a space at either end " Thusly "... I like the bellmann stuff, a great range but very expensive... Torqeedo are a little less....

[Guest625101138]

I went into a website : "http://www.bellmann.nu" and the high pitch noise in your movie confirmed in what they said about this kind of motor. Click on "english flag" click on technical and go down to various motors they are using for their electric systems. Their systems are not cheap.

BertKu

The higher power synchronous drives are using the PMSM similar to the little one in the video.

The original DC system with the PERM-132 motor will suffer the problem of brush changes. From what I have seen this is not a simple task. For auxiliary use it may not be a particular issue.

The mid power motors are induction motors and the efficiency is a little less than the PMSM. They have a potential advantage of the magnets not becoming demagnetised but I doubt this is a problem unless the PMSM was seriously overheated.

If you use a large diameter prop you do not need much power to move a large boat at acceptable speed even into a good breeze.

The saildrives look nice and would be on my consideration list if I was building a sailing yacht.

Rick W

[BertKu]

My apology, I will leave out all quotes in future. Yes, indeed they are pricy, but from what I have seen, very good. I love to know where Rick W. is getting his 600 watt motors from for USA $ 24.

Will ask him.

To come back on batteries, I probably like the NiMH development more than supercapacitors. It has basically unlimited recycling capabilities, like the super capacitors, has no fumes, no toxic substances, a higher temperature tolerance and the leakage current is low. Also the space and weight are less than a lead acid battery, but larger and higher than the super capacitors. Lets push the Obama administration for faster results. Also in a short circuit situation, the internal fuse may help to stay alive on a boat in a seawater spillage. I don't know whether all battery nmanufacturers will build a fuse in all batteries, time will learn.

Bert

[Guest625101138]

My apology, I will leave out all quotes in future. Yes, indeed they are pricy, but from what I have seen, very good. I love to know where Rick W. is getting his 600 watt motors from for USA $ 24.

Will ask him
Bert

Bert
That is a little motor. I will be using it on one of my fast hulls.

You can get quite powerful ones for low prices like this:
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=7870&Product_Name=TGY_AerodriveXp_SK_Series_63-74_170Kv_/_3250W
You will see this one is 3.2kW and is USD70. You would not run it continuously at this unless it had forced cooling. I expect half rating would be OK.

A suitable controller is costs USD30:
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=7341&Product_Name=Hobbyking_SS_Series_85-95A_ESC
It will not get the the full motor rated power but it will get the continuous rating. You can get more expensive controllers that will get the full motor rating.

For more serious stuff I have been playing with Mars 3001 motors. I have two of the PMSM motors from here:
https://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=cat&cat_id=51,52
These are nice motors. They are rated at 4.5kW on 48V and can give burst power to 9kW. This is a clip of a Mars motor running up:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/propulsion/30202d1237845773-electrical-motor-maths-25hp-8hp-mars_pmsm_run-up.wmv

I made an outboard with one of these and tested on 2 small 12V batteries:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/20726d1209288392-electric-boat-data-drive_leg_test1.wmv

Both are reasonably large files so take a while to load.

I think these PMSM motors are fantastic but the Mars motor have field sensors for fine speed control and this is a waste on marine applications. I am yet to try the Mars motor on a controller without field tracking. They must work on power factor to the motor I guess. I know that once they get a few revs they develop reliable torque without breaking down.

Rick W

[masalai]

BertKu,
batteries for me at present are spiral wound AGM yellow-top from ??? cant remember, but I wrote it down somewhere... :D:D - I feel are more robust and reliable so long as they are recharged before using half rated capacity to ensure longevity as electric motors are a heavy load for the lead acid format but to consider anything else for the present is almost millionaire domain....

Always put fuzes almost everywhere, to protect wiring, and all other components...

[BertKu]

Thanks Rick for the information
I need some smaller motors for another application. I am making also wireless electronic timers and large displays for the Horse showjumping sport. The small motors you mentiond could be the right one for this aplication.
The local suppliers for small motors are very pricy, your info is thus appreciated.
Bert

[BertKu]

BertKu,
batteries for me at present are spiral wound AGM yellow-top from ??? cant remember, but I wrote it down somewhere... :D:D - I feel are more robust and reliable so long as they are recharged before using half rated capacity to ensure longevity as electric motors are a heavy load for the lead acid format but to consider anything else for the present is almost millionaire domain....

Always put fuzes almost everywhere, to protect witing, and other components...

It appears that you are using dry sealed lead acid batteries. You are right, as soon you deep charge this type of battery too often, the lifetime of the battery will be reduced drastically. I use the smaller 7 Amperhour dry sealed lead acid batteries and keep them at 13.8 Volt trickle charged. Some of them are now 8 years old and still holding the charge well. Most boats have their batteries not properly kept fully charged and therefore after 2 to 3 years have to be replaced. By just keeping them fully trickle charged with a simple small solar cell panel or small wind vane and a 2N3005, 2 x 1N4007 , a 5 ampere diode with a 15 Volt regulator will make boat batteries last longer. The cost is low, about 3 dollars, but one needs some knowledge to put it together.

[CDK]

BertKu, I think you mean 2N3055....

[BertKu]

Yes CDK, you are correct. Slip of the fingers. (and a setting by microsoft on my keyboard I haven't been able to figure out why often characters are being swapped.)
Bert

[mark775]

RE: post 151 Role Models?????
Yes, yes, a role model of a crack-head, Marxist radical from Kenya or Indonesia (no one knows which), mentored by and endorsing the philosophy of a nexus of anti-white racists, anti-semites especially, terrorists and Chicago thugs who went from community organizer to marrying Stokely Carmichael-in-a-designer-dress and running the nation, nay, world, into South-Side Chicago.
Another racist, Sotomayor, I actually don't have that much of a problem with as she is likely the least liberal of the justices we are going to see on Hope/Change's watch (How did the Supreme Court go from "interpreting the Constitution" to "empathizing with others and emparting one's life experiences, tempered by the world's view of what it thinks we should be like" anyway?) . After all, we could have got another Ruth Bader Ginsburg. I had no idea that when I took a peek at this thread, too, you people would be spewing your political ********, but dang, as was posted a ways back - we don't learn.
32368
"Werd up, batteries iz fo' crack-lighters
Don' make me come over there bitch!"

[BertKu]

Could anybody provide this person with some addresses for some Mental institutions. I have absolute no clue what the above has to do with batteries and electric motors
Bert

[mark775]

Hey, ya knucklehead - That's exactly my battle. When people introduce their political views into a thread that should have no room for them - I try to make it sting a little. I, personally, would like to see the Boatdesign forum address things like, um...I don't know...Boat Design? (It looks like you're from one of the first locales to make the transformation to South-Side Chicago. I, on the other hand, still have a stake in knocking the jibber jabber down lest innocents believe that there is nobody from the conservative camp remaining, yet NEVER get into politics until someone else does.
Ernie

[mark775]

Not only that, if that didn't make you smile, you must still be mad that you don't have a Barack to take care of you. (Oh, that's right! You do - Madiba! How are things workin' out down there since he fixed everything?)

[masalai]

mark775 please post off topic diatribe here http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/open-discussion/all-off-topic-posts-26910-8.html or here http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/open-discussion/slagging-off-each-other-27764.html

[mark775]

Please see post 176.

[masalai]

mark775, There ARE threads to meet your aspirations and needs already - or else, you can start your own thread in the appropriate sub-category, and post your thoughts and research there to your hearts content...

Let others discuss areas of interest to them - land of espousing free speech has it enshrined in their constitution but often denies it to others... Boating encompasses a diverse range of interests, pick that which interests you and leave the other stuff alone, there is plenty of space and a good indexing/search function to find almost anything... within or outside of boatdesign.net....

[mark775]

" land of espousing free speech has it enshrined in their constitution but often denies it to others" You don't get it yet - Do realize you just got your off-topic jab in and you did the same thing I did (but colored by another belief system)? Also, there is nothing in my Constitution about you. There is nothing in my Constitution that says "arrogant liberal from down under gets the last word." Dang, Mas, since you seem to know a little about this place, you should know that "freedom of speech" is a legal concept and nothing to do with any forum - just that Americans can say what we want and not get shot for it. You have every right to ask me to talk on your thread instead of this one but I really have no desire to butt heads with people - I'd like to stick on topic. Your fingers can't type "post 176"? All that said, I'll leave this thread alone for a day or two, and as long as it hasn't devolved again, I won't either.

[BertKu]

Bert
That is a little motor. I will be using it on one of my fast hulls.

You can get quite powerful ones for low prices like this:
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=7870&Product_Name=TGY_AerodriveXp_SK_Series_63-74_170Kv_/_3250W
You will see this one is 3.2kW and is USD70. You would not run it continuously at this unless it had forced cooling. I expect half rating would be OK.

A suitable controller is costs USD30:
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=7341&Product_Name=Hobbyking_SS_Series_85-95A_ESC
It will not get the the full motor rated power but it will get the continuous rating. You can get more expensive controllers that will get the full motor rating.

For more serious stuff I have been playing with Mars 3001 motors. I have two of the PMSM motors from here:
https://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=cat&cat_id=51,52
These are nice motors. They are rated at 4.5kW on 48V and can give burst power to 9kW. This is a clip of a Mars motor running up:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/propulsion/30202d1237845773-electrical-motor-maths-25hp-8hp-mars_pmsm_run-up.wmv

I made an outboard with one of these and tested on 2 small 12V batteries:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/20726d1209288392-electric-boat-data-drive_leg_test1.wmv

Both are reasonably large files so take a while to load.

I think these PMSM motors are fantastic but the Mars motor have field sensors for fine speed control and this is a waste on marine applications. I am yet to try the Mars motor on a controller without field tracking. They must work on power factor to the motor I guess. I know that once they get a few revs they develop reliable torque without breaking down.

Rick W

Pleased to be back at the right topic
That was two mighty interesting movieclips. The speed seems to be very acceptable. Thanks for the small motor website. I have always been battling in obtaining those small motors. I do get them also from the hobbyshop, but at a price premium.
What is your thought on using 24 Volt automotive truck motors and put 2 motors in serie on 48 Volt. There maybe small differences, but that could one easy compensate. The cost of those motors on the scrapyard are minimal.
Bert

[masalai]

BertKu, are you talking starter motors? - far to heavy on amperage and only designed for brief bursts to start the engine - would kill a battery very quickly (not just flatten it) - actually kill it as a battery.....

[Guest625101138]

Pleased to be back at the right topic
That was two mighty interesting movieclips. The speed seems to be very acceptable. Thanks for the small motor website. I have always been battling in obtaining those small motors. I do get them also from the hobbyshop, but at a price premium.
What is your thought on using 24 Volt automotive truck motors and put 2 motors in serie on 48 Volt. There maybe small differences, but that could one easy compensate. The cost of those motors on the scrapyard are minimal.
Bert

After seeing these little PMSM I would never bother using brushed motors. The PMSMs are 3-Phase and cannot be run in series because you cannot get to the star point. Also they operate at synchronous speed so if the motors had unballanced loads the controller would be confused.

The motors are tremendously powerful for their size. In fact the most powerful I have seen for the model plane stuff is rated at 6kW and is two smaller motors on a common shaft. You can gang two motors like this because they will have locked bodies on a common shaft and will be synchronised. You cannot gang more than two because the bodies spin - not the shaft.
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=6889&Product_Name=AXi_5330-Double_GOLD_LINE_Brushless_Motor

Hobbycity is a good firm to deal with. Good prices and fast delivery. I have had 4 or 5 orders from them now.

Rick W

[BertKu]

BertKu, are you talking starter motors? - far to heavy on amperage and only designed for brief bursts to start the engine - would kill a battery very quickly (not just flatten it) - actually kill it as a battery.....

Hi Masalai, No I was more thinking on other motors used in large trucks, like single windscreen wiper motors or windows motors. But Rick W has answered my question and I will consider also to try the 3 phase motors out. But I just got back from overseas after some sailing on the Kaager plassen in Holland and cruising on a luxury cruize liner from Barcelona and I am a little cash stripped. The Hollanders have developed their electric hybrid systems quite nicely and are using either dry lead sealed batteries or NiHM (very expensive). I was watching those 6 meter yachts running on batteries and electric motors. Very silent and smooth.
Bert

I forgot. I spoke to a skipper and he was using Royal deep cycle Calcium batteries. Each 12 Volt - 200 Amperhour and seem to be quite happy with them. Anybody else who has experience?

[CDK]

Gentlemen, feet back on the ground please, it is not all gold out there.
These wonderful powerful motors do have impressive specs but to use such a motor for the propulsion of a boat or other vehicle is quite something else:

-Current consumption is given as xx Amps/ yy seconds, in other words "burst mode". No duty cycle is mentioned; I wouldn't be surprised if that turns out to be 5% or less. What you need for real life applications is continuous duty. That will require a considerable airstream through the motor.

-The efficiency may peak above 90% but the useful power range is given for the 85% points. Assuming the controller does equally well, 100 Watts electrical input gives 72 Watts mechanical output, minus 4 Watts for a blower makes 68 Watts. Not exactly spectacular.

-No data about design life or MTBF (mean time between failures). To get an MTBF of 2000 hours you need conservatively rated bearings and little thermal stress. I bet these guys designed for high performance only.

-These little buggers are expensive! Mass produced electric motors like the automotive ones cost only a fraction and perform very reasonably.

The outrunner design originated in Germany in the 60's: the Papst Aussenlaufer. By putting the coils within the rotating magnet shell the air gap is further from the shaft center, so there is more torque. Papst was so kind to add vanes to the bottom of the drum, so there was cooling provided.

[BertKu]

[QUOTE=CDK;280099]Gentlemen, feet back on the ground please, it is not all gold out there.
These wonderful powerful motors do have impressive specs but to use such a motor for the propulsion of a boat or other vehicle is quite something else:

Hi CDK, No I am not planning to keep my feet on the ground ****but rather try to get my bam in the water. You probably are right that we need to look at more robust motors, but have you seen that movie clip from Rick W? I don't know if he has tried this quite fast speed with a larger battery and longer on the water.
CDK are you from Greece? I love Greece, everytime I fly into Athens I try to slip out to Egina, that little island in front of Poreus. They have lots of tittle boat shipyards and lots of people who are working on their boats. I can only learn from them.

Masalai, the spiral battery you are using are they not of the Calcium spiral type? You seem to be very happy with them and after I searched the net for Calcium batteries, they seem to be much more suited for boats than any other at present costeffective type of battery.
They seem to be sealed, no screws/nuts to put distilled water in, internal liquid cycling system, deep charging and cycling, longer life.
8 of those ones gives me 1600 Amperhours or 19,2 kwhour, good enough for a hybrid system. Now only to sort out a decent motor and I am on my way.

****CDK, I ment it as a joke, not to keep my feet off the ground, but it may have come acrross as rude. My sincere apology
Bert

[Guest625101138]

Gentlemen, feet back on the ground please, it is not all gold out there.
These wonderful powerful motors do have impressive specs but to use such a motor for the propulsion of a boat or other vehicle is quite something else:

-Current consumption is given as xx Amps/ yy seconds, in other words "burst mode". No duty cycle is mentioned; I wouldn't be surprised if that turns out to be 5% or less. What you need for real life applications is continuous duty. That will require a considerable airstream through the motor.

-The efficiency may peak above 90% but the useful power range is given for the 85% points. Assuming the controller does equally well, 100 Watts electrical input gives 72 Watts mechanical output, minus 4 Watts for a blower makes 68 Watts. Not exactly spectacular.

-No data about design life or MTBF (mean time between failures). To get an MTBF of 2000 hours you need conservatively rated bearings and little thermal stress. I bet these guys designed for high performance only.

-These little buggers are expensive! Mass produced electric motors like the automotive ones cost only a fraction and perform very reasonably.

The outrunner design originated in Germany in the 60's: the Papst Aussenlaufer. By putting the coils within the rotating magnet shell the air gap is further from the shaft center, so there is more torque. Papst was so kind to add vanes to the bottom of the drum, so there was cooling provided.

The little motors are good to play with to learn about the technology.

The Mars motor is a step above. Still not industrial but certainly in the commercial arena.

Have you ever looked at how much running a typical outboard does. My bet is that there are not many that have actually done 1000 hours. I have no experience with the modern 4-stroke but back in the 70s if you got 400 hours of hard use before the first rebore you were lucky.

The electric approach requires a whole design approach. You are not going to build a realistic electric boat to plane with the current state of batteries. You can get one to plane but it will last maybe 30 minutes before recharging.

Electric is fine for sailing. I had an 8HP diesel in a 3t yacht that usually ran at 4HP or there abouts based on the fuel consumption. Would do 6kts. In 4 years of regular use I clocked up 80 hours on said motor. It was use to get on and off the mooring and now and then when the wind dropped and I needed to be somewhere else. So not what I would call hard use.

For electric powered vessel you have to take a different tack and this is getting to be possible with good hydrodynamic design and modern lightweight materials.

The linked rendering is for a 9.5m boat. It is intended for limited coastal cruising. It has spartan accommodation and will be built light. It will have a large prop so it operates efficiently and have the bollard pull of a much more powerful motor. It requires 750W at the motor to do 8kts. 4.5kW will get it to 15kts. Motor and controller have a combined efficiency of 88% at the selected rpm and power. Normal operation will be well within the motor rating. Motor will be mounted in the cabin out of the worst of the weather.
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/32329d1244613079-long-skinny-power-boats-sw_tri_9-5m_linesplan.jpg

The 3 solar panels will produce 675W in good sunlight and it will have a 1kW wind generator rated at 10m/s - only 6m/s when boat is going to windward at design speed. Intended batteries are 4kWh of lithium.

I am still in the proof of concept phase but nothing looks impossible with the idea. Range will be limited by my provisioning only but intention is to coastal hop. If I get 1000 hours use a year out of it then it will be used more than I expect. (Many people are thinking about replacing a car after 4 years - probably less than 1500 hours operation.)

If you scale up something like this you can start to build in accepted comforts that I am happy to live without. Costs go up accordingly.

Rick W

[BertKu]

Hi Rick W. That is excactly what I was looking for. Are there patent rights on producing a similar boat? The beam is 2,25 meters by 9,5 meter. The solar panel areia is 1.09 m2 at 16 % efficiency sunlight gives 175 watt of energy.
3 panesl = 525 watt.
Excellent, concept. If the boot uses 2000 watt of electric motor power you will get quite a distance before the battery is pap. If you over and above have some wind, you don't even have to stop at all. I am more in favor for a sturdy Calcium battery for the time being. The battery you have selected is a bastard to re-charge all the time ciorrectly.
All what I need is to find a good electric motor. Thanks Rick, However we have here at the coast normal waves of 1,5 to 2 meter. With a little bit of wind 2,5 - 3 meter and with a light storm 5 - 6 meters. Not to speak of a decent storm at 10 meter waves. What is your expectation in weather conditions as above prescribed.???
Australia is also not as easy when it comes to waves. What is your forecast to use this type of boat on your seas?

I need to speak to a local boatbuilder to give me some ideas on how to construct the inside.

Are you willing to give more secrets away?
Bert

[Guest625101138]

Bert
There are no secrets. It is all in development. The boat has to be built very light. I have not gone through the detail design process for the construction but the aim is a hull around 250kg and this will only be achieved with carbon fibre. It seems ridiculously low for a 9.5m hull but when look at modern ocean racing cats and consider the loads they handle then you realise my target is not unrealistic.

The lithium batteries have very good energy density and the Mars motor weighs 10kg.

The hull is just over 2m wide but the initial stability is very good because it is really a trimaran. Its stability matches a much wider monohull while still retaining the ability to be self righting. The batteries in the bottom of the central hull act like a ballasted keel.

My power estimates have proven to be very reliable because I have some very good design tools that I have found over the last few years. I have been building pedal boats as test platforms to prove design ideas. My V11 hull design is the current 24 hour distant holder for human power 245km. This is a clip of V11J in action at 6.5kts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BiGp94RLX0
It takes 150W to hold this speed.

The solar boat is just a longer, heavier version of this with a cabin on top. It will weigh 4 to 5 times more and require about 3 times the power to do the same speed or 750W to get to 8kts.

The faux-tri idea is the most energy efficient hull form I have seen to date. It does not surprise me that the latest military craft are using this configuration.

The little Turnigy PMSM I have will be used to power a 1/5th scale model of the proposed boat just to get a feel for the cabin design and handling characteristics.

Rick W

[masalai]

BertKu,
Never heard of "calcium" batteries - looked at some reports on 'cold' sodium but quite risky in a water environment but could be efficient and light - no thanks - - yet... The spiral wound are lead/acid types known as AGM or "absorbed glass matt" - heavy, can hold a fair charge and should be recharged before 40 to 50% discharge.... The Torqeedo electric 'outboard' motors are fairly efficient OVERALL - power used and converted to effective thrust, and will suit my 4,500kg loaded, sailing cat, pushing it in still water at up to 6 knots with 2 units rated at 4000w on 48VDC peak each (2000w cruise, I would expect around 4knots)

[BertKu]

Bert
There are no secrets. It is all in development. The boat has to be built very light. I have not gone through the detail design process for the construction but the aim is a hull around 250kg and this will only be achieved with carbon fibre. It seems ridiculously low for a 9.5m hull but when look at modern ocean racing cats and consider the loads they handle then you realise my target is not unrealistic.

The lithium batteries have very good energy density and the Mars motor weighs 10kg.

The hull is just over 2m wide but the initial stability is very good because it is really a trimaran. Its stability matches a much wider monohull while still retaining the ability to be self righting. The batteries in the bottom of the central hull act like a ballasted keel.

My power estimates have proven to be very reliable because I have some very good design tools that I have found over the last few years. I have been building pedal boats as test platforms to prove design ideas. My V11 hull design is the current 24 hour distant holder for human power 245km. This is a clip of V11J in action at 6.5kts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BiGp94RLX0
It takes 150W to hold this speed.

The solar boat is just a longer, heavier version of this with a cabin on top. It will weigh 4 to 5 times more and require about 3 times the power to do the same speed or 750W to get to 8kts.

The faux-tri idea is the most energy efficient hull form I have seen to date. It does not surprise me that the latest military craft are using this configuration.

The little Turnigy PMSM I have will be used to power a 1/5th scale model of the proposed boat just to get a feel for the cabin design and handling characteristics.

Rick W

Hi Rick, I am not that lucky that I can afford to build it from Carbon Fibre. I may have to build it from light plywood. It means that in the years to come maybe I am rewarded and will get lighter more powerfull HiHM battereis and I may have do it with a lower speed for the time being. The Calcium batteries are here R 2809 each ( US$ 350) and weigh 55.7 Kg for a 200 Amperehour. 4 off them is 225 kg, quite a weight and it will slow it down, special in some waves.

You have already put quite some work and time into your design.
Bert

[BertKu]

BertKu,
Never heard of "calcium" batteries - looked at some reports on 'cold' sodium but quite risky in a water environment but could be efficient and light - no thanks - - yet... The spiral wound are lead/acid types known as AGM or "absorbed glass matt" - heavy, can hold a fair charge and should be recharged before 40 to 50% discharge.... The Torqeedo electric 'outboard' motors are fairly efficient OVERALL - power used and converted to effective thrust, and will suit my 4,500kg loaded, sailing cat, pushing it in still water at up to 6 knots with 2 units rated at 4000w on 48VDC peak each (2000w cruise, I would expect around 4knots)

Hi Masalai, I haven't mastered yet on how to add a photo to a reply. The manufacturer is Delkor. They have some 20 different models and sells them as "Royal Deep Cycle and Royal Marine" series. 12 Volt
Bert

[BertKu]

Hi CDK, I have apologised in 187 - One has to be carefull to make a joke, as it can sometimes come across as rude.
Bert

[Guest625101138]

Hi Rick, I am not that lucky that I can afford to build it from Carbon Fibre. I may have to build it from light plywood. It means that in the years to come maybe I am rewarded and will get lighter more powerfull HiHM battereis and I may have do it with a lower speed for the time being. The Calcium batteries are here R 2809 each ( US$ 350) and weigh 55.7 Kg for a 200 Amperehour. 4 off them is 225 kg, quite a weight and it will slow it down, special in some waves.

You have already put quite some work and time into your design.
Bert

I sold my last yacht 17 years ago when my children were into sports that did not include sailing. I got heavily involved in their sports for about 10 years. They have now got through all that and I started thinking about a new yacht 7 years ago but it was going to be something different. I played with a few ideas at small model then decided to build something bigger when I had a long break from work.

The pedal boats provided a great interest and are real fun. I race mine against kayaks and canoes on an annual marathon race over 404km and do quite well. I get classed with unrestricted boats such as surf skis and am competitive even though I am not as fit as the guys who just do it for fitness in contrast to my engineering interest.

They have given me the platform to experiment with hull design and I have tried most forms of hulls and propulsion systems. I now have very accurate design tools for boats.

I realised a year or two ago that a propeller driven boat would suit my needs better than a conventional sailing boat. I have been asked on occasions to join in in sailing races at the local lake with my pedal boats but I can beat th entire fleet unless it is very windy and then the bigger cats can beat me. It is quite fascinating to be able to go directly upwind. I always gain on upwind legs even against the cats.

The first full-scale boat idea was a 12m long boat that could be split into parts for transport but its accommodation was poor. Then one of the forum members suggested the tri idea and I worked through it and it came out very well.

I have quite a few ideas that lead to more efficient boat overall. None are novel but I have engineered them so they work and in combination they provide outstanding efficiency.

My props are completely different to any normal boat prop. They get efficiencies in the mid to high 80s compared with 60 to 70% for most outboard props. I have very low drag appendages.

There is lots of information on this thread:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/pedal-powered-boats-23345-20.html

One of my designs is currently being built for an ocean crossing under pedal power. It will outperform ocean rowing boats by a good margin:
http://www.adventuresofgreg.com/HPB/uploaded_images/P5270066-757314.JPG
It is an 8m long boat that has a hull weight of 55kgs. All carbon fibre on Corecell foam. Very strong and light - but expensive for weight.

Building heavier means you need to compromise on speed. My objective has been a cruise speed of 8kts so I can do decent coastal hops between ports.

If you want to have some fun on the water you can build a nice pedal boat for a few hundred dollars. It is quite surprising how much distance you can cover. I normally do 20km in a couple of hours on a Saturday or Sunday morning. Just go round and round the lake most of the time but I enjoy it more than playing golf or riding a bike. Sometimes I will go for a drive to a new lake or river and explore.

Rick W

[CDK]

BertKu, to insult me you need heavy artillery. Can't even find the phrase that you thought might be offensive.
I am not from Greece but from somewhere quite near the "Kager plassen".
Since my retirement we live on an Adriatic island, see it all on www.puntakriza.com

Rick, I know it is fascinating, just wanted to provide some counterweight in case readers start installing 3-phase motors without knowing the whole story.

Masalai, Calcium batteries are common lead-acid, the calcium matrix just holds the plates together and plays no active role. It's just limestone...

[BertKu]

I assume apology accepted.

I may not completely agree with you. Those batteries are build in Korea or Austraila or at least in that area and what I have seen from the specification, it is better than Lead Acid batteries.
a) the leakage current is substantial less than a lead acid battery, even a dry sealed one. I am using them in hunderds and maximum 6 months and then, if they are not recharged, they are gone. They loose the ability to hold power for thereafter.
c) I do agree that they use a portion lead in their wrought spiral calcium/lead construction. But I don't know what percentage, I can only assume very little.
d) but which Lead acid battery can be stored for over a year and can be used straight away?
e) which lead acid battery last for 6 years? Although I have some here which are 8 years old, but just because I have them on a trickle charge of about 5 milliampere

have a look at the various Delkor information via Yahoo or google. I personnlay think they are one stage better than Lead acid.

You are living in a beautifull part of the world. When I was 19 years old I explored that part of the world. I doubt it that it is today as cheap as it was in those days.
Bert

[BertKu]

[QUOTE=Rick Willoughby;280136]I sold my last yacht 17 years ago when my children were into sports that did not include sailing.

Hi Rick, I have a similar situation that my daughter became a junior showjumping champion and that settled my free time with making wireless electronic timers. I had an unique way of avoiding wrong times during severe interferances, which resulted that I was able to export them into Europe.

I have one difference, I have a wife who also has done her yachting courses and she wants a cozy 2 bed in a reasonale large area in the boat I like to build. This makes my plan to build an electric boat much more complex.
Also she fell of her horse and damaged her back, which makes sailing on my own quite imposible. I tried it while I was on holiday in Holland.

My electric boat is going to be much more heavier and probably 2 x 6Kw generators/motors coupled to a diesel. I love to use solar energy and wind energy, but with 2 x 6 Kw, it will make it much more difficult to run it without a diesel.

Also the waves are far to high in this part of the world. I love your design and deep in my heart, that is the one I should build, but I have to be realistic.
At my age I don't want a divorce on my hand.

Will be using the kind of screw I have attached? Like a plane, the tips are bend.

Bert

[Fanie]

Hi CDK,

Calcium batteries are common lead-acid

Be carefull with this. Calcium batteries have a higher voltage than the standard lead acid batteries. Some of the over eagers here now have charging problems in their cars, it seems the batteries doesn't get charged properly because the alternators hasn't been adapted and undercharge the calciums.

[Guest625101138]

Bert
I braved a miserable Melbourne morning on the lake to get some video clips of what the little Turnigy motor will do on two small lead acid batteries. These batteries run out of puff at a combined power around 200W. I did not have any instruments set up to actually measure the power.

This clip shows the reduction, shaft and prop:
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/V11JE_Drive.wmv
The overall ratio is 12:1. The 10mm pitch belt is much larger than I need for this but I had for another purpose so used it.

This clip shows the boat moving along (4.2Mb so will take time to download):
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/V11JE_10kph.wmv
The noise is not as noticeable on the boat. It is probably the orientation of the microphone.

It topped out at 10kph (5.4kts).

My next step is to get a lithium battery so I can take the motor to its 600W limit.

Rick W

[Fanie]

Eh !! No peddaling... that's cheating :D

You may do better by not having the belt system, instead drive the prop directly with a motor for max efficiency. Something else you should watch out for and that is the drive cable should turn true and not try to swing around an imaginary axle.

That prop you used looks like an air prop, and not a water prop !

Looks pretty good though. What motor did you use ?

[Guest625101138]

Eh !! No peddaling... that's cheating :D

You may do better by not having the belt system, instead drive the prop directly with a motor for max efficiency. Something else you should watch out for and that is the drive cable should turn true and not try to swing around an imaginary axle.

Looks pretty good though. What motor did you use ?

It needs the reduction to drive a decent prop. A prop sized to run at engine speed would be about 30% efficient. The one I used is around 80% efficient. I could make a better prop but the Bolly was not being used for anything else right now. The motor and reduction use 6W to turn over so no load losses are low. The toothed belts operate at zero slip so should be efficient under load.

The curved shaft is 1/4" spring steel and gets the prop aligned with the flow. If you force an incline it will vibrate badly. A push prop is self stabilising so once it starts rotating it is as if it is held in a rigid bearing at the outboard end. I just use the strut to keep the shaft from flopping about when carrying and hitting the hull in a turn or in waves.

This link shows the motor:
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=7708&Product_Name=TGY_AerodriveXp_SK_Series_42-40_750Kv_/_600W
Set me back USD24. I got it for a radio controlled model of the faux-tri but could not resist trying it on the bigger boat until I get the model built. The motor is tiny - pick up something that weighs 149 grams and you will realise how small it is.

Rick W

[mark775]

"The curved shaft is 1/4" spring steel and gets the prop aligned with the flow. If you force an incline it will vibrate badly. A push prop is self stabilising so once it starts rotating it is as if it is held in a rigid bearing at the outboard end. I just use the strut to keep the shaft from flopping about when carrying and hitting the hull in a turn or in waves." - I knew that was coming! I think what Rick does here is one of the coolest things ever...

[Guest625101138]

.... - I knew that was coming! I think what Rick does here is one of the coolest things ever...

Mark
You are easily impressed!

Actually I was so excited the first time I tested the idea that I asked the guy who told me about it if he had any intention of patenting it because it was novel to me and I did not want to disclose the idea in public domain if he wanted priority. He did not see it as a big deal - just something he found out playing with fibreglass prop shafts.

I have since been told that props on aircraft are aligned to flow approaching the wing rather than being aligned to the wing so I guess it is something aero engineers already know about.

Rick W

[CDK]

I see that I have to rephrase my statement about calcium batteries just a little bit. Introducing another element in a lead/acid battery for purely mechanical purposes does alter the characteristics, otherwise there would be no sense doing it.
The old-fashioned batteries were manufactured with pure lead for both positive and negative plates, only after charging lead-oxide was formed.
Fast charging and deep cycling causes damage to the very soft oxide, so the battery makers developed a matrix technology using elements like calcium, antimony, selenium etc. and prefabricated plates with lead oxide so they could skip the time consuming formation phase and still could sell the batteries fully charged.
But they are still all lead-acid batteries.
Why there are only Calcium batteries and no Antimony or Selenium batteries is a mystery to me, the reason can only be commercial: it sounds good.

Of course Delkor, Varta and Exide all claim to have the ultimate technology, but this site gives objective information:
www.engineersedge.com/battery/antimony_calcium_selenium_tin_alloying.htm

[masalai]

Thanks CDK - most useful info "credit has been posted to your boatdesign.net account" :D:D:D

[mark775]

Have aluminum/air batteries gone anywhere? Still a problem with, I guess the word would be, precipatants? Precipitates? Sorry, didn't read the entire thread and got tired of the forward looking marketing BS from the Finnish (I believe) company...

[BertKu]

I see that I have to rephrase my statement about calcium batteries just a little bit. Introducing another element in a lead/acid battery for purely mechanical purposes does alter the characteristics, otherwise there would be no sense doing it.
The old-fashioned batteries were manufactured with pure lead for both positive and negative plates, only after charging lead-oxide was formed.
Fast charging and deep cycling causes damage to the very soft oxide, so the battery makers developed a matrix technology using elements like calcium, antimony, selenium etc. and prefabricated plates with lead oxide so they could skip the time consuming formation phase and still could sell the batteries fully charged.
But they are still all lead-acid batteries.
Why there are only Calcium batteries and no Antimony or Selenium batteries is a mystery to me, the reason can only be commercial: it sounds good.

Of course Delkor, Varta and Exide all claim to have the ultimate technology, but this site gives objective information:
www.engineersedge.com/battery/antimony_calcium_selenium_tin_alloying.htm

Hi CDK, It appears that you have a point that people have problems with charging their cars with the present volatge regulator. Altough I can only enquire next week with a manufacturer whether the voltage can be easy modified with maybe 2 diodes in serie with a particular connection , whereby the output voltage is reased by 0,8 volt from the volatge regulator on the alternator.
But would anybody know what the proper charging voltage suppose to be for Calcium batteries?.
I personnaly have lost interest in Calcium batteries. The price is nearly 3 x the normal cost of a lead aciod battery versus 1,6 x 2 time longer lifetime.
Does not make sense to change as the weight is approx the same.

I need to do some more research on NiMH batteries possible used for the Japanese Hybrid cars coming out.

Bert

[Guest625101138]

......
I need to do some more research on NiMH batteries possible used for the Japanese Hybrid cars coming out.

Bert

These are the batteries being developed for the iMIEV in Japan. They are very impressive:
http://lithiumenergy.jp/en/products/index.html
They are storing over 100W/kg. This is around 3 times that of VRLA batteries. They have a huge advantage from a power density point of view.

Rick W

[BertKu]

Bert
I braved a miserable Melbourne morning on the lake to get some video clips of what the little Turnigy motor will do on two small lead acid batteries. These batteries run out of puff at a combined power around 200W. I did not have any instruments set up to actually measure the power.

It topped out at 10kph (5.4kts).

My next step is to get a lithium battery so I can take the motor to its 600W limit.

Rick W

Hi Rick, for me you are getting a 6 star rating. Well done and I hope that your lithium battery will not be a disappointment for the price you will be paying. The charging of a lithium battery is problematic. Have a look at the TI chip bq78L114. It is a smart battery management system and could be easy made by you to a full proper charger. Basically the IC is the core and the most difficult part of a charger. The rest is a matter of one weekend making a casing with cables.

By the way, the solarpanel industry is plunging down in price due to an oversupply in 2009. It is expected as from middle of 2010 to pick up again.
In view that you need 600 watt of solar panels, the industry is mumbling of only getting USA$ 2,50 - 2.75 per watt. This means for you some 1800 dollars from China or the Far east. Refer http://www.isuppli.com. It may be worthwile to consider this.
Bert

[Guest625101138]

Hi Rick, for me you are getting a 6 star rating. Well done and I hope that your lithium battery will not be a disappointment for the price you will be paying. The charging of a lithium battery is problematic. Have a look at the TI chip bq78L114. It is a smart battery management system and could be easy made by you to a full proper charger. Basically the IC is the core and the most difficult part of a charger. The rest is a matter of one weekend making a casing with cables.

By the way, the solarpanel industry is plunging down in price due to an oversupply in 2009. It is expected as from middle of 2010 to pick up again.
In view that you need 600 watt of solar panels, the industry is mumbling of only getting USA$ 2,50 - 2.75 per watt. This means for you some 1800 dollars from China or the Far east. Refer http://www.isuppli.com. It may be worthwile to consider this.
Bert

I will buy a small charger for the battery when I get it. The one I want for testing is 5Ah and 6 cells so around 22V. It costs USD76. The charger is about USD50. The charger monitors each cells during charging to ensure they are ballanced.

I have been working on using Sunpower 225W panels. They would have not been very good today. I will look forward to prices coming down because they are the most expensive bit.

I also have to build and test a turbine. I made one set of blades but I tried them out on a windy day and could not stop it as I was supporting the vertical shaft by hand and ended up smashing the tips into a bush so it did not clobber me.

Rick W

[BertKu]

I will buy a small charger for the battery when I get it. The one I want for testing is 5Ah and 6 cells so around 22V. It costs USD76. The charger is about USD50. The charger monitors each cells during charging to ensure they are ballanced.

Rick W

Hi Rick, That is what that Ic bq78PL114 does for you. Together with a number of bq76PL102 it monitors, charge and protect each cell to up 12 Li-Ion or Li-pol cells at the time. You can set it for Li-Ion and Li-polymer. I will see what they charge me here and if it is not too much, I will airmail it to Australia. The 50 Dollar can be better spent on additional batteries for you.
I have no idee whether you can put those batteries parrallel, I assume not. But at 3,8 Volt each cell you could loose a few millivolts by using a 2N3055 and connect the base via a small battery and resistor to the emittor. In that way you have a cheap 15 Ampere diode without too much loss as you saturate the base. You can then put 2 batteries parallel via the "diode".

Bert

[Guest625101138]

Hi Rick, That is what that Ic bq78PL114 does for you. Together with a number of bq76PL102 it monitors, charge and protect each cell to up 12 Li-Ion or Li-pol cells at the time. You can set it for Li-Ion and Li-polymer. I will see what they charge me here and if it is not too much, I will airmail it to Australia. The 50 Dollar can be better spent on additional batteries for you.
I have no idee whether you can put those batteries parrallel, I assume not. But at 3,8 Volt each cell you could loose a few millivolts by using a 2N3055 and connect the base via a small battery and resistor to the emittor. In that way you have a cheap 15 Ampere diode without too much loss as you saturate the base. You can then put 2 batteries parallel via the "diode".

Bert

Bert
I am interested in the IC but more for how it operates than actually building the circuit. Even if it does all the functions and only requires plugs it will take me a long time to set up.

The stuff I get from Hobbycity all just plugs together. It saves me time mucking about with soldering irons and finding the right plugs.

The full-scale boat I am working toward will most likely have 14 cells so a 12 cell unit would not do it for me.

This shows the Hobbycity charger:
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=7373
You can see that there is a lot of functionality for the money.

I had to wire up the plug for the Kelly speed controller I purchased to suit the Mars motor and it caused me a lot of grief. Even with the finest tip iron I just do not have the fine motor control and eyesight to do this work and enjoy it.

There is another fellow BillyDoc doing a solar panel charge optimiser on the forum. This is stuff I am interested in but only with respect to operation. It would be very unlikely I would set out to build one.

Speaking of 2N3055s; about 35 years ago (actually 1975) I built an electric bike that used 20 x 2N3055s in parallel working in switch mode as the speed controller. The bike had 3 x 12V lead acid batteries and the motor was a small aircraft generator. I got it up to 35mph and thought it was fantastic - used to buzz down the street with only the clatter of chain and a slight whistle from the HF switching on the motor. The thing had built-in current limit so I did not destroy the transistors. So these days I marvel at what can be done with power mosfets and IGBTs. I am awed by the little controller I used on the boat yesterday. It weighs around 50 grams and can control up to 2kW.

Rick W

[BertKu]

Hi Rick,

Not a problem, I thought to do you a favour back. After my wife had seen your movie, braving the winter weather of australia, she immidiately grasped the potential of the combination, solar, wind and electrics. It made my life much easier to spend lots of bucks on experiments.

I personnaly would have gone the HiMH route for future cost reasons. You need to get more battery storage in anyway if you want to go higher in power. I have not been able to mess a NiMH battery up, but did with Li-pol.

Yes the 2N3055 were something robust. I still use them in the hunderds. They are cheap and the horsy people don't seem to blow them up. I charge small 6 Volt 4Ah drysealed lead acid batteries. The 2N3055 are merely used to drop the voltage from 14 to the regulated 7,2 Volt. In expensive and not easy blowable.

What is the reason that you do not use modern latest technology 36 Volt aircraft motors or generators? Are they too expensive or not easy avialable?

Bert

[Guest625101138]

Bert
I have not yet played with a lithium battery. I have had some involvement in lead battery manufacture and I know of some of the effort that went into getting these lighter and more reliable. I see that sort of development now going on with lithium but with much greater backing. It will only be a matter of time before the issues are resolved to a satisfactory level.

You can get 90Ah cells for USD180 so 4kWh of capacity will not be a killer for me.

As far as the motors go I got a deal on two PMSM Mars 3001 motors and 300A Kelly controllers so I am planning on using these in the full-scale boat. The model aircraft stuff is just fun to play with and very good bang for buck.

I have not looked outside the EV arena for other motors and generators. The Mars motors have very good reputation in light vehicle market. They are used in all sorts of commercial and light industrial applications as well the popular choice for powering things like bikes. There are a few manufacturers using them for outboards:
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=7708&Product_Name=TGY_AerodriveXp_SK_Series_42-40_750Kv_/_600W

I am still at the tinkering stage so am open to ideas. Basically just testing and understanding the elements I need to bring together. The hull design was the hard part but I have good design tools for these now so I know I have the best possible underwater shape for my design conditions.

Rick W

[Fanie]

Hi Rick,

Again on your prop. A long prop like you are using could be 80% efficient in air, but not in water. Those props have a tendency to fly the outside diameter faster than the actual speed hence gaining on vacuum to fly off.

In water it is different. Water is not compressable so when your prop speed begins to get efficient for the outside the inside is going to begin working against it, causing drag.

I know small props are scarce and difficult to find, but you should experience a significant improvement in power and speed if you use the right type of prop.

[Fanie]

I have a 56lb thrust trolling motor on my power boat. 24 V and 2 x 105AH batteries I can run it almost for a day. On a slender hull like your I'm sure I can get it almost to plane. Keep in mind the prop wasn't designed for speed, but power. So I feel you propelling such a light load you should get much better performance if you get the right prop. Significantly more.

Easy test - when you start off you can measure the current drawn from your motor. When you accellerated the current drawed should become less as the setup becomes more efficient for the speed. So if your motor runs flat out the current to the motor should drop of when the boat is at speed. With the pop you have I'm almost sure the current is going to stay high and deplete your battery much faster.

[Guest625101138]

Hi Rick,

Again on your prop. A long prop like you are using could be 80% efficient in air, but not in water. Those props have a tendency to fly the outside diameter faster than the actual speed hence gaining on vacuum to fly off.

In water it is different. Water is not compressable so when your prop speed begins to get efficient for the outside the inside is going to begin working against it, causing drag.

I know small props are scarce and difficult to find, but you should experience a significant improvement in power and speed if you use the right type of prop.

Fanie
When you have to use a prop to cover 404km in a river race you learn what is efficient and what isn't. Remember I am only applying about 150W to this prop. The velocity ratio is about 1.03 so pressure ratio is accordingly very low.

There is no difference between air and water when it comes to a prop other than the size needed to get the thrust. The only reason you do not see more props like mine on boats is the need for draft to run such a prop in a higher power application.

If you look at Wageningen series of props you will see their high aspect blades get the highest efficiency - up around 90%. This is some Wageningen data I posted elsewhere:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/surface-drives/27701d1229556018-surface-propeller-low-speed-displacement-boat-picture-1.png
You will see the area ratio here is only 30%. I am using even smaller but I am operating at quite low Reynolds number compared to the Wageningen data so efficiency is lower. As the area ratio goes up the best efficiency comes down.

High aspect blades have low induced drag. This makes them more efficient. It is the same reason you see long narrow glider wings or long narrow foils on boats.

The 80% figure is based on calculations I have done for water.

I designed this prop:
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/14407/size/big/cat//ppuser/18624
It was used by Greg Kolodziejzyk to set the 24 hour distance record on water under man power.

If you want high efficiency in a any prop you go for long slender blades. Of course you need the room to swing them and they need to be strong enough to take the bending loads.

Rick W

[Fanie]

Ok, I see you didn't use an air prop. Now why didn't you say so in the first place.

http://www.recumbents.com/WISIL/hpb/prop/default.htm

[Guest625101138]

Ok, I see you didn't use an air prop. Now why didn't you say so in the first place.

http://www.recumbents.com/WISIL/hpb/prop/default.htm

Fanie
The prop I used yesterday is a commercially produced carbon fibre prop. It is made by Bolly in Australia. I bought one to compare with my home made ones. It is good for easily driven hulls. Not quite as good as I can make but better than any standard boat prop you can buy.

If you look down this list you will see it about half way down:
http://www.bolly.com.au/models/glasstwo.html
It is 15 X 25 - very high pitch to diameter ratio. This is a function of being such a large diameter on an easily driven hull. The ones I make are travelling about 30" every revolution. Slip is very low because they are acting on such a large area.

We are getting away from battery technology but I believe that the understanding of what drives efficiency will make current battery technology more viable for boats.

With 210Ah/24V lithium battery on a slender hull with good prop and motor you could cover something like 150nm in about 30 hours.

Rick W

[BertKu]

Bert
I have not yet played with a lithium battery. I have had some involvement in lead battery manufacture and I know of some of the effort that went into getting these lighter and more reliable. I see that sort of development now going on with lithium but with much greater backing. It will only be a matter of time before the issues are resolved to a satisfactory level.

You can get 90Ah cells for USD180 so 4kWh of capacity will not be a killer for me.

Rick W

Hi Rick,

Here an article on the Lithium charging management set of IC's.

!80 dollar seem to be reasonable, provided it is for 22 Volt.

I have to search for bigger motors. I will probably try Italy. This 600W is looking very good.
Bert

[Ad Hoc]

"...High aspect blades have low induced drag..."

Ive never heard of a propeller being described in terms of its aspect ratio. Mean width ratio, yes, but aspect ratio, never!

"...If you want high efficiency in a any prop you go for long slender blades.."

Having a large as area as possible on a prop is ideal, coupled with a low induced velocity, as per momentum theory to reduce the thrust load factor. However, in an attempt to have a lightly loaded blade, by increasing the mean width ratio, the increase in frictional drag of the blades tends to neutralise the attempt to obtain as large a blade area as possible.

Not convinced?...ask yourself how many props do you see that are long and slender on real boats?....these only work efficiently for aeroplanes owing to the vast different in viscous effects of air and liquid.

[Ad Hoc]

masalai
Don't understand what your point is?
Are you saying trial and error expts are better than actually understanding the mechanics behind what one is doing?
Are you also saying that no one else has seen the light because they are lazy, again, because there is no understanding of the mechanics involved?
Are you also saying that having a world record in a small thin-skinned model with a peddle and a seat and nothing else equates to being a naval architect and understanding the mechanics involved? Credit where credit is due, world record, can't take that dedication away. But I fail to see how that equates to being a naval architect and then able "prove a theory/definition" contrary to that which is in a text book?
If Lance Armstrong had a go, would that make him a competent naval architect to provide advice on technical matters such a lifting body and momentum theory?
I'm confused at the point you're trying to make.

[mark775]

He is, too. He just wanted to get something in about the USA.

[mark775]

Rick, that is one beautiful prop. Does the hub need to be that big?

[BertKu]

Hi Rick,
I agree with Mark775 refer 225.

The Hollanders have bend the tip on their electric propulsion. Must be for a reason. refer thumbnail 198. I am curries what would happen if you bend your tips in the same sort of manner. Would you get a better "consumption" out of your blades?

Bert

[Guest625101138]

Hi Rick,
I agree with Mark775 refer 225.

The Hollanders have bend the tip on their electric propulsion. Must be for a reason. refer thumbnail 198. I am curries what would happen if you bend your tips in the same sort of manner. Would you get a better "consumption" out of your blades?

Bert

The induced drag on high aspect blades under low loadiung condition as I have them is very low anyhow. Hence there is not much value in fencing the blade with angled tips.

Induced drag is caused by the high pressure on the back of the prop skirting around the outer edge of the prop to the low pressure side. If the blades are long and slender, operating at very low pressure coeeficient there is little flow around the tip.

If you find an article on induced drag on a foil, wing or blade it might help you understand what I am saying. If the design is efficient to start with it does not need the add ons.

Rick W

Rick W

[Guest625101138]

Rick, that is one beautiful prop. Does the hub need to be that big?

I imagine you are talking about the shiny aluminium one not the black one.

The prop was originally intended to have a strut support with something like 30mm OD bearings. As it turned out he set the record with the outboard end unsupported so it could have been smaller. It had a nice cone fairing in front of it though.

Also if you go too small the root of the blades are under very high stress even with the small loads involved.

The inner portion of the blades really only act as a means of getting the useful part of the blades out to a larger radius. The first 1/3rd does very little in the way of useful propulsion.

Rick W

[Ad Hoc]

"...Induced drag is caused by the high pressure on the back of the prop skirting around the outer edge of the prop to the low pressure side...."

This is not strictly correctly and is slightly misleading because the tip vortexes play a much greater role and must considered when reviewing foil data/theory. Tip vortexes streaming astern from the free ends of a foil have a much more pronounced effects than pressure leakage which generally takes place around the tips, from the +p to the -p surfaces.

The induced drag is when the lift force has a 'backward' or drag component. It is the force which would be required to push a foil approximately equal to the lift force F, up a 'frictionless' inclined plane. All because the induced velocity causes the tip and trailing vortexes to 'bend downwards' from the plane of motion (downwash angle). In reality the induced velocities are at right angles to the resultant velocity.

[Ad Hoc]

bertku

The Japanese did some interesting research in the mid 1990s with a "lip-cup" as they called them. A cupping of 1% chord from the 0.7rad to the tip gave an increment of around 0.02 of the thrust coeff. They were easily able to modify the thrust and/or torque without sacrificing the efficiency.

[BertKu]

Hi Rick,

I just got off the phone to the batterymanufacturer. Not very good news for me. The Calcium battery is indeed 100% the same as the old ordinary lead acid battery. The plates or spirals are just slightly exposed to calcium. Thus the voltage is excactly 2.28 volt per cell. The German automove industry does not go for NiMH due to the memory element they have. They all are busy in making the automotive battery in the VLRA direction and smaller, leighter without loss of capacity.

The supplier of the Smart Lithium battery management suite has no datasheets for me, unless I sign a non disclosure agreement. To enable to charge a battery like you are planning to buy, 90Amperehour, lots of external components like power Mosfets are required. Buying a charger off the shelve is thus the best.

Thank you all, for all the other information supplied to me, CDK, Ad Hoc, and all others. I am signing off, I am on a business trip again will be back middle next week.
For you Rick, I toroughly enjoyed the video clips and hope to get some more soon from you.

Bert

[brian eiland]

bertku

The Japanese did some interesting research in the mid 1990s with a "lip-cup" as they called them. A cupping of 1% chord from the 0.7rad to the tip gave an increment of around 0.02 of the thrust coeff. They were easily able to modify the thrust and/or torque without sacrificing the efficiency.
Kind of ventured off the battery subject here, but that happens sometimes. I was going to ask Rick if this wasn't some sort of 'cupping' of the prop. Hasn't this 'shop technology' been around for quite a number of years? I remember having a prop on a 9.9 hi-thrust Yamaha outboard cupped so I could take advantage of the slight bit of increased pitch I figured I could handle in that application.... the cupping in lieu of increasing the pitch....prop alteration (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/propulsion/prop-alteration-18601.html)

[Boston]

The TV news item mentioned a motor that could be incorporated in the wheel hub and would also be used as a brake, so a DC motor is most likely.
My knowledge isn't up to date, the most powerful magnetic material I am familiar with is of the rare earth type, like Samarium-Cobalt. Are there really permanent magnets 100 times stronger than that?

Ive just been reading along but had to mention that I was recently up at CU in one of the labs and was fiddling with some magnets on a bench while I spoke to one of the postdoctorates
those magnets were maybe three quarters of an inch in diameter and maybe half an inch thick each
nothing I could do could pull em apart
our conversation kinda broke down into him laughing his ass off at me as my casual attempts to separate them turned to some kind of freak show
I think he puts them out as an idiot test
I didnt walk in there thinking magnets at all I was just walking down the hall
apparently that particular lab is devoted to developing rare earth magnets or there next generation
from what I could gain in the short conversation we had
the rare earth magnets they have out on the market are nothing compared to some of the stuff in that lab

the comment that really stuck (after he was done laughing it up) he mentioned they have magnets that even if placed on opposite ends of the room will interact with another and screw up various measurements and test results

[brian eiland]

.....interesting observations on nickel mining for batteries, and the subsequent polution that occurs during ocean transit

Sunday, June 21, 2009
The June 9 Business article "Toyota Wants New Prius to Be America's Next Top Model" called the Prius an "eco-icon" and said that it has allowed Americans to "advertise their eco-correctness." A Toyota spokesman was quoted as saying that many Prius buyers want to "make an environmental statement."

The Prius's reputation as a "green" car is completely undeserved. The culprit is its nickel metal hydride battery.
The nickel is mined in Sudbury, Ontario, and smelted nearby, doing damage to the local environment. The smelted nickel is shipped to Wales, where it is refined. Then it is sent to China to be made into nickel foam. Then it goes to Japan, where it is made into a battery. Then it goes into cars, some of which are shipped to the United States and some of which go to Europe. All of that seaborne transport consumes a lot of fossil fuel.

CNW Marketing rates cars on the combined energy needed "to plan, build, sell, drive and dispose of a vehicle from initial concept to scrappage." A Prius costs $2.87 per lifetime mile. By comparison, an H3 Hummer costs $2.07 per lifetime mile. Then there will be the problem of disposing of the used batteries. This is not a "green" car; it is a "brown" one.
_________________________________________________________
Not Easy Being Green
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Thursday, March 22, 2007
Environment: Feeling a bit smug about owning that hybrid? Better rein in that contempt for those who still drive primitive conventional cars. It seems that a Hummer is more ecologically friendly than a Prius.

Yes, the Hummer will burn much more gasoline and discharge more emissions than a Toyota Prius driven the same distance. But a car's ecological footprint — if we may twist an environmentalist phrase — is more than just fuel mileage.

Hummer: Is this demon machine actually a friend of the environment?
The feature that makes the Prius such a draw for the environmentally conscious is really its weak spot: the battery. Like all hybrid batteries, it's of the nickel metal hydride variety. The nickel for the Prius is mined in Sudbury, Ontario, and smelted at a plant nearby. Toyota buys 1,000 tons of nickel from the plant each year.

So far, so green? Maybe not. The landscape around the plant at the city's edge alarms environmentalists. Some eco-activists blame the bleak, lifeless countryside near the facility in part on its 1,250-foot smokestack that belches acid-rain-causing sulphur dioxide. 'Sudbury remains a major environmental and health problem,' says David Martin of Greenpeace Canada. 'The environmental cost of producing that car battery is pretty high.'

But there's more. From the Sudbury plant, the smelted nickel is shipped to Europe, where it's refined in Wales. Next, it's sent to China, where it's manufactured in nickel foam. The nickel is then moved to Japan, where Prius batteries are made. But the long, fossil-fuel-burning journey doesn't end there. After the batteries are placed in the Prius, some of the nickel is round-tripped back to North America while some is shipped to Europe in cars sold outside Japan.

This useful information comes not from the investigative efforts of the mainstream U.S. media that allegedly exist to keep the public informed; it's brought to us by Chris Demorro, an enterprising reporter with the newspaper of Central Connecticut State University, The Recorder, and London Mail reporter Martin Delgado.

While the Prius digs a deep environmental rut, the Hummer H3 plods on with a much lighter touch. An H3 costs $2.07 per lifetime mile to operate in environmental terms, while the Prius costs $2.87. Figures are courtesy of CNW Marketing, which rates cars on the combined energy needed 'to plan, build, sell, drive and dispose of a vehicle from initial concept to scrappage.'
Then there's the expected life span of the Prius: 100,000 miles, or a third of the Hummer's, says CNW. Toyota would have to go through the same 'build, sell, drive and dispose' process three times for three Priuses to provide the same amount of service provided by one H3.

We know some hybrid owners buy them for the fuel mileage and are not obsessed with global warming. But that doesn't mean a hybrid is necessarily a good choice, especially after the EPA lowered the 2008 model's fuel efficiency rating. The hybrid king of mileage actually gets a city-highway average of about 46 mpg, down roughly 16% from earlier ratings.
If mileage and economy are the top concerns, then better choices might be Toyota's Yaris or Corolla, conventional-engine cars that get nearly comparable mileage with no hybrid price premium.

We're not trying to disparage hybrids in response to environmentalists' demonization of SUVs. Consumers should be free to drive whatever they want. We're merely providing some little-known facts — and wondering just what other 'green' alternatives being pushed on the public are not so green after all.

[Guest62110524]

i last Nov bought a ford mondeo diesel 2l tdci
It was supposed to do 50mpg on highways, I drove 10000 km in Eu in all sorts of conditions this last month, it often hit 60mpg, , I proved this by fills and receipts and this, how much greener can you get, it weighs 1.500 kgs, it is a superb car and I have had plenty including big Mercedes
here it is after filling done 20 miles at av 60 miles per g, thats abt 4.6 l per 100
It purrs and can sit on 100mph all day
no wonder american cars have gone tits up, Euros are so far ahead

[FAST FRED]

and wondering just what other 'green' alternatives being pushed on the public are not so green after all.

If "cap and trade" gets stuffed thru (its another Emergency , you know, so no need to actually READ the bill) fuel and heating oil will go up another Buck , and electric will go up 90%.

Happily show leather will not go up much , if the recession is pushed into a depression, folks can torch DC on foot.

FF

[mark775]

"no wonder American cars have gone tits up, Euros are so far ahead [with their Ford]. ...God, grant me the patience to not snap at the arrogant Kraut. At least he could have used a Beemer for an example.

[brian eiland]

i last Nov bought a ford mondeo diesel 2l tdci
I looked on a number of sites and have yet to see anyone of them say something other that diesel engine with 6 speed trans. WHAT ABOUT THE ENGINE???? Is it a 6 or 4 or 5?? V or in-line?? Reporters these days are idiots.

[CDK]

""CNW Marketing rates cars on the combined energy needed "to plan, build, sell, drive and dispose of a vehicle from initial concept to scrappage." A Prius costs $2.87 per lifetime mile. By comparison, an H3 Hummer costs $2.07 per lifetime mile. Then there will be the problem of disposing of the used batteries. This is not a "green" car; it is a "brown" one.""

Of course, it would have been better for the environment if the Prius had a battery made from pine or limestone. They certainly tried, but it didn't work as well as NiMh.
What is overlooked here is that the Nickel will be recycled over and over again without putting a further load on the environment while the Hummer keeps gobbling up precious fuel until it rusts through.

Even the Chinese try to prevent more Hummers to be born.......
_________________________________________________________

[BertKu]

Hi guys, I am back from Cape Town. With swells of over 9 meter (27 feet) it was quite something, but lucky I was not out on the sea. Please American friends, you have placed yourself in the confederation cup final for Soccer against Brazil, can't you get that company EEstor to be in the final with NiMH batteries. I am dying to get hold of one and have a lifetime pleasure of a million charge/discharge cycle. I am nearly finished with a crazy design for a electric driven small boat. As soon I have all the sketches properly on paper, I will let you have your say of what you think about it. But I need some decent batteries, before I even will contemplate to get myself into 2 - 5 meters of sea we often have here where I am living.
I don't like lead acid batteries, too much gasses, I dont like the sealed battery, too heavy although a substantial better than the liquid one. I don't like the NiMH as I understood they have memory problem? if not properly charged. I don't like a couple of other batteries, as they are also too expensive and tricky with charging.
All I want is your EEstor capacitor battery. What is the latest on that company???
Bert Ku

[apex1]

"no wonder American cars have gone tits up, Euros are so far ahead [with their Ford]. ...God, grant me the patience to not snap at the arrogant Kraut. At least he could have used a Beemer for an example.

That arrogant Kraut is a Kiwi, you know! And he was right on the spot, the Mondeo was (as all successful Fords in the past decade) a German / European development.
If it comes to car comparison the US are 50 years behind the Germans.

[masalai]

BertKu I would not recommend holding your breath whilst waiting for delivery... USA is in depression and is only waiting for "official bureaucratic confirmation" 3 or more months after the fact as much of their Govt stats are so heavily massaged that they must be regarded as lies... Therefore That business is probably in "survival mode", to return in a few years, when economic recovery seems possible. I was looking at using ReEpower motors but several Aussy builders have cancelled due to failure to deliver... That is why I am looking at Torqeedo from Europe...

[mark775]

50 years? It's not been that much longer that Henry Ford made the technology that defeated the Germans in two world wars! There's more Mondeos than say, Ford pick-ups, for example? You think that the directorate at Ford America doesn't have access to the technology of Ford of Germany?
Just recently, A man on a One-World mission, Barack Obama, GAVE Chrysler to Fiat in exchange for Fiat technology (there's an oxymoron!) that Americans don't want. Right, I agree that the unions and the regulations have made it difficult for American car companies to compete on an international level. I agree that Americans got caught up in cheap fuel and big cars about the same time as bad government policy made these cars too inefficient. There were a few just-plain-bad cars, too, born of complacency. We have an uphill battle and it can't start in earnest for 1227 days but we are resilient (GM CEO, Barack Obama, has 1500 full time battery engineers working on R & D for the Volt, as we speak, by-the-way. I won't buy one because it is worse than no longer American - It is Government/Union boss payback).
We can't ALL be BMWs (long my favorite cars) and some of us have to stay on the sidelines sometimes in order to be rested for when some dummkopf starts yet another world war. Prost!

[mark775]

How do you like the CTS-V? Sorry, let me slow way, the hell, down so you can get a look...

[masalai]

moved to post#524 http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/open-discussion/global-economic-situation-liveaboard-cruising-yachties-26558-35.html#post282991 as more appropriate to continue there

[apex1]

50 years Mark, yes. But maybe 38 only I did not measure that. To comment the rest I do´nt feel any need.
And btw mates we are hijacking this thread!

[BertKu]

If you find an article on induced drag on a foil, wing or blade it might help you understand what I am saying. If the design is efficient to start with it does not need the add ons.
Rick W

Rick I am in the middle of a Childrens Pony National Championships horseriding and I promised a sketch of what I had in mind. The championships are finished on the 4th of july thus in the meantime a very vague sketch

1) I need to try to get everybody to come up with ideas for a new type of battery. Crazy?? no, not at all. By talking too each other, ideas are born.

2) I still have to speak to a structual engineer due to the tremendious forces this construction will have on the sea.

3) After the boat is launched, I have to mount 4 horizontal brackets to avoid that the gears are grinding to pieces at sea, due to the movements.

4) The problem: there is no more space in our harbor for additional yachts

5) Problem no 2 : A trailer + boat cannot be more than 2 meter 50 cm wide.

6) The pontoins will be lowered and brought up either by electric motors or as a manual backup, with a winch

7) Problem No 3 : I am married for too long to ly in a single berth, thus I want a decent queen size bed. (therefore the square boat)

8) In view that EEstor is not coming forward with a low weight capacitor battery product , in the meantime I will have a small sail on board.

9) I will be using 2 electro motors/generators preferable 6 KW each, but as an initial try I am looking at http://www.markelektriks.com/sub/pmdc.htm Bert (I will next week come up with some better drawings)

[BertKu]

Here the sketches
Bert

[Guest625101138]

Here the sketches
Bert

Bert
I have played around a little with articulated hulls and find they have some real challenges.

A nice size model will give you some idea of the design challenges. There is a lot of structural detail around the pivot points.

May be worth your while starting a new thead on the design.

Rick W

[BertKu]

Hi Rick,

I will follow up your suggestion to start a thread.

As soon I have the time I will make all the detailed drawings. I am not too worried about the forces, as I am not looking for a super light construction like you want, but merely comfort, reasonable speed, electrical driven with enough space for solarpanels, extra sail, trailer suitable, stable on the sea, lots of light batteries from EEstor or I hope that with inputs from other people we could make "super capacitor batteries" ourselves.

Maybe primitive, but without licence and as large and light as possible. I will first explain to the audience how a capacitor is made, not everybody knows this. Then, I hope that somebody could have a brainwave and we all could benefit from it. A capacitor as a battery is for a boat the ideal product. No gasses, million times charge and discharge. High current capabilities, light. It has a few disadvantage, but there are ways to overcome them.

Bert