Alekstar A-38 Express Cruiser

[AlexMorozov]

Hello all

About 2 years we designed and built our Alekstar A-38, designed by Alexander Taranenko, build by Kompan-Morozov team. Now we have passed 3 months of testing in Spain and got some positive results (I think so) – we have no competitor in non-professional regattas and still have reasonable comfort for fast cruising. So the basically we have reached our aim.
But probably other guys has another opinion, and we are very interested to hear the critics or .... from you.

Herewith some principal things of this boat:
Alekstar A-38 www.a-38.com
- Jybe-type keel, which allow to keep the keel always in line with heeled waterline and give the lower drug from keel – the main problem of other wide boats when tacking.
- The keel is lifted by hydraulic cylinders and reduced the draft to 1.5 meters for access to shallow marinas and areas.
- Water ballast tanks 2 x 400 l, pumped by engine driven pump, give more comfort and allow to keep the bigger sails on the passage.
- Drum-type twin rudders is optimized for better steering of heeled boat and partly lifting in light winds to reduce drug from rudder blades.
- Dry weight is just 4300 kilos, including bulb keel 1500 kilos, the hull is made of foam sandwich, vacuum bagged, with carbon reinforced frames and parts.
- Retractable and rotating carbon bowsprit for better performance with gennaker downwind.
- Carbon Nordic mast and carbon Kompan wide boom.

What do you think about here ? :?:

[Alik]

Nice boat, Alex! Racing breed with luxury interiors.

[cuorefocoso]

Maybe nice boat.
But definetely not cruiser-racer, with jybe-keel and water ballast tanks, retractable bowsprit and carbon mast. It is too extreme for any cruiser except russians.

[AlexMorozov]

May be you are right, the boat is not beginners and originally for cruising on Med, but the operation of that things is very simple and by one man crew. I tested the boat with my son in different conditions and we did not need the extra crew at all.

[AlexMorozov]

Just got photo from helicopter and enclose here. Speed about 8 knots upwind tacking, not so bad for family crew of 2. This is photo from regata in Spain, where other boat had full crew of 5-7 hanging on the windward reelings, we had 800 l of waterballast instead. The IRC rating is rather high as 1.13, but she is cruiser :)

[Guillermo]

Alex,
I asume the boat is CE marked (A or B Category?), but I want to know if it is registered (matriculado) in Spain and if so in what "Capitanía". This is because I'm having some problems with some public servants around here to get registered recreational boats with water ballast tanks and want to be able to give them examples of such boats in Spain having ballast tanks. Particularly in Categories A and B.
Thanks in advance.

Cheers.

[AlexMorozov]

the boat is CE A certified, registered in Russia (non EU). But I registered some boats in Spain for clients and no any problems, excluding time consuming. The owner should present " Declaration of CE Conformity" from builder, this is solo document about the boat as it is. They ask normally to lift the boat by crane to inspect the bottom and keel.
Do not see any relations with ballast system, if the boat has CE mark.

[yipster]

genakker is not the most easy to sail and rudders aint dragfree
was just reading all the good things about water ballast again
dont know much bout classes but that is a nice, very nice boat

[Guillermo]

Thanks Alex.
Let me highjack your thread for a while.

Everybody: Has any of you registered a recreational boat with ballast tanks in Spain? Specially motor boats. I'd like to know about them.

Thanks in advance.
Cheers.

[Omeron]

Nice boat, congratulations.
What is a jybe type keel? Can you give more information about how it operates? Thanks.

[AlexMorozov]

Jybe(rotate) keel, rotating around vertical axis +- 0-5 degr, by hydraulic cylinder, operating by 2 wheels in cocpit. More list, need more angle, to align the keel in line with heeled WL. The keel is always with optimal angle, for better tacking ability upwind. In good condition and calm sea the boat has about 30-35 degrees tacking angle.

[Omeron]

I always thought this was against the racing rules. That is keels cannot
be moved back and forth and rotated about their vertical axis.But since you can cant them legally, i guess everything is allowed. Does that result in a big penalty as far as IRC rating is concerned?

[AlexMorozov]

We never mentioned the racing, the boat is fast CRUISER and NOT optimized for IRC rating races. From other side the rules are not allow MOVABLE ballast, but rotating keel is NOT movable ballast, as the CENTRE of mass is not changed, when the keel rotate around vertical axis. The penalty for light hull, water ballast, bulb keel, etc is high. boat has IRC about 1.13, similar to Pogo40 or other racing (not cruising !) boats. For racing under any handicaped rules you should have the boat which is build under this rules. This is not our case, we wanted to have simple fast sailing yacht for cruisers, who like it.

[Manie B]

my 2 cents for what its worth

beautifull beautifull boats

top design and build quality

BUT MUCH TOO TECHNICAL

glorified racers - not really cruisers, strokes for folks i suppose:confused:

[AlexMorozov]

Too technical ? - the boat can be with fixed keel, other things are became standard for modern cruising boats.

[Omeron]

Thanks for the explanation. I understand that the boat is not designed for IRC, that is perfectly ok. But are you saying that, rotating the keel about its vertical axis is declared in IRC rating application, and IRC accepted it without any problem and issued a certificate in accordance with this. I think this is very interesting and opens a completely new discussion about such a keel.
I wonder what kind of penalty is imposed because of this.
As far as ı am concerned, changing the angle of attack of a fin keel is a major,major modification and cannot be overlooked just because the center of gravity of the keel is not changed.
The purpose of the keel is to provide lift as well as stability. And changing the angle of attack is probably the most pronounced action in terms of changing lift characteristics, is it not?
Also, by changing this angle and thereby improving lift, you are also creating dynamic forces which otherwise would not be there, which in return would change stability and in return change the heel angle and in return change the center of gravity of the keel, etc etc.
I am very curious as to how IRC treats all that.
This may actually deserve a thread of its own.

[AlexMorozov]

As I already mentioned she is cruising boat and not IRC optimized, but this type of keel is not against the rules, as the centre of gravity NOT change his position at all, as rotating of keel around vertical axis, which pass via the CG of keel and bulb. The angle is rather small 0-5 degr depends of heel and practically not change the stability of boat.

[Guillermo]

Alex,
what are the loading conditions for the two stability curves of the A-38?

Cheers.

[AlexMorozov]

One with water ballast another one without.

[Guillermo]

But sided water ballast cannot produce an origin centered symmetric righting arms/moments graph....:confused:

[AppleNation]

Notice that there is a "special" on the website!

Imagine like the rest of the boat building world you are struggling to sell boats.

Have any been bought?

[AlexMorozov]

It is clear that with water ballast righting moment is better before 90 degr.
2 boats in order and now we put for sale the demoboat (hull #1) which used for presentation in Spain during 2008. Now it is not good time to build and sale the boat for any builder, but fine for customer, who do not like to pay twice price for Class 40 boat, but wish to get good platform for fast cruiser.

[Guillermo]

Alex,
the curve you have plotted for the water ballast condition is impossible if ballast is on the side. It could be true only with a centered ballast.

Cheers.

[AppleNation]

.... but fine for customer, who do not like to pay twice price for Class 40 boat, but wish to get good platform for fast cruiser.

Yes but you're not selling a boat like the class40 boat. There is no A-38 class.

I think if your premise is that you are competing with a class40 then you need to rethink your business plan.

Your competition is other racer/cruisers of that length.

Cheers.

[Omeron]

What do any of you say about rotating the keel fin about its vertical axis, changing the lift it creates, and this being not an issue by the rating offices.

[AlexMorozov]

I already mentioned and repeat again that A38 is fast cruising boat and Class40 is just closest boat from racing team, however A38 is inside the class40 rules, see http://www.class40racing.com/.
Re stability graph, please read the ISO standard, how draw the curve for water ballasted boat, the water ballast is calculated as "crew action" depends of the heel. The stability curve is correct.
The lift by keel is not calculated and restricted by rules (CE), the stability is not changed due to rotating of keel around the vertical axis, already mentioned before.
Nobody compete with Class40, you just have the fast cruiser with same or better performance then similar racer, but with more comfort at reasonable pricing, nothing more. If somebody is pure racer, then go to class rated racing boats.

[AppleNation]

Not trying to have a go at you Alex... I was just asking questions and pointing things out to help you.

As for Class40 compliance.... How does your rotating keel fit with the Class40 rule of a fixed keel ?

[AlexMorozov]

Thank you, if somebody need to be in class40, no any problem to fit fixed keel, the boat just loose some degrees of tacking angle, and it is all, you will have the same performance on any other courses. Everybody knows that such wide boats is not "tacker", but downwind flyer, same as Mini650 or others. If you are thinking about IRC racing, then a lot of boats optimized for this rules, Archambault-40, First 40 and many many others, where the racing round the cans is about 40% is tacking against wind. But the ocean racing (or cruising) is mostly broad reach or down wind running and each class of boat is build to purpose. I think so.

[TeddyDiver]

Alex,
the curve you have plotted for the water ballast condition is impossible if ballast is on the side. It could be true only with a centered ballast.

Cheers.

I think it's a curve to leevard only with weather side water ballast???

[Alik]

Pink curve is with water ballast? If so, water ballast tank(s) should be in the bottom, otherwise impossible to get increase of GM. But then, the curve in inverted position looks strange...

[TeddyDiver]

Pink curve is with water ballast? If so, water ballast tank(s) should be in the bottom, otherwise impossible to get increase of GM. But then, the curve in inverted position looks strange...
What is strange is the curve being at zero GM with 0 and 180 deg.
GM being increased/decreased (depending how much the boat is heeled, + when 0-90,- 90-180,+ 180-270,- 270-360 to make circle full), is obvious when CG isn't anymore in the centerline..

Hmm.. wasn't actually thinking anymore straight with the degr of heel..it should be little more or less.. or something ;) Anyway Happy New Year to all!!!

[Guillermo]

I will have a look at ISO rules, as Alex indicates, when I come back to work (the 7th), to find out what it says there. In the mean time I find impossible a sided ballast tank can produce GZ or RM curves being null at 0º and 180º

Cheers.

[Alik]

There are factors changing stability curve when water ballast is taken:

1. Change of slope of curve (especially obvious at 0 and 180) due to change of VCG.
2. Shift of curve due to asymmetrical load, this will result non-zero GZ at 0 and 180.

As Alex said, factor #2 is neglected on the curve plotted.

But still there is a question on factor #1 - the curve does not show behaviour typical to change of VCG.

Really interested what curve is that, maybe designer can give comments.

[AlexMorozov]

Albert, may be you right, looks not very clear, I have the curves from designer and can explain only as I understood: As per ISO the water ballast is movable ballast and count as "crew weight". At heel 0 degr (no ballast aside, no crew aside), no static heel. Then the heel increase and ballast move (pink line), after about 4-5 degr, the ballast aside and all further moments are counted with ballast on one side. So, in position about 130 degr, the moment with ballast aside is lower then without ballast.
The pink curve is with weather side ballast only, the worst condition in inverted position.

[AlexMorozov]

I think that pink curve is right at 180 degr, but at 0 moment the static heel to be -5 degr. It is correct, but it is depends how count and draw the curve with movable ballast as per ISO standard.
Designer told me that this is in order with ISO, but I will ask again after 12/1. Happy New Year to all.

[JesperW]

As for Class40 compliance.... How does your rotating keel fit with the Class40 rule of a fixed keel ?

I just felt I had to make a comment here. I have sailed this boat, and I have to agree with Alex, he is quite clear in stating that the design is not meant for racing, much more for fast and comfortable cruising.

There are many small reasons why the A-38 is not ideally suitable for racing, so myself I would recommend looking elsewhere if that's your intent.

/jesper

[AlexMorozov]

Yes, guys, you were right. After 6 months of "light use" the boat, the "bugs of new boat" were growing to "construction and engineering problems" in geometrical proportion. After 1 year ownership we had no more possibility to pay every month this "floating maintenance bill" and sold the boat at cost of materials to French sailor, who will rebuild her in next year. It is pity that good concept was not support by proper engineering and building quality from Kompan Marine.

[Omeron]

Sorry to hear that. May be you would like to share with us, what kind of problems arose, so that we can learn more about weak spots of a boat. Like the classic story, the best way to design a good shoe starts by having a number of wornout shoes...

[AlexMorozov]

Fine exterior design and good sailing ability (not optimized for IRC racing), but not practical salon layout, poor quality of builder in details - hydraulic system, construction of rudder blades, steering mechanism, engine installation and and sound isolation, interior assembling quality, shaft leg installation, non professional wiring, and other bugs. I sure that if the same boat was built in Holland, for example, she would be good example of fast cruiser.

[Godzilla]

Is this what you are talking about?

http://www.kompanmarine.ru/?lang=en