Build a Freestanding or buy a Traditional mast?

[Kaptin-Jer]

I'm at the stage of my re-build that I need to consider the mast. The original mast was deck stepped to 43". I like the idea of building a freestanding spar, but I am reluctant (-don't have) the $1,000.00 for the plans and another $1,000.00 for the "engineering" basically a set of instructions on how to reinforce stuff below deck. Add the coast of carbon fiber and the mast will end up costing more then the boat. I don't begrudge the designer his fee, I'm a building type Architect so I understand, but does anyone know were I can get a reasonable set of instructions? or should I just look for a used aluminum mast and re-rig the way it was?

[RHough]

I'm at the stage of my re-build that I need to consider the mast. The original mast was deck stepped to 43". I like the idea of building a freestanding spar, but I am reluctant (-don't have) the $1,000.00 for the plans and another $1,000.00 for the "engineering" basically a set of instructions on how to reinforce stuff below deck. Add the coast of carbon fiber and the mast will end up costing more then the boat. I don't begrudge the designer his fee, I'm a building type Architect so I understand, but does anyone know were I can get a reasonable set of instructions? or should I just look for a used aluminum mast and re-rig the way it was?

I think you have answered your own question. ;)

You have to assume that the engineering of the boat matches the rig. Without a professional or experienced mast builder/rigger to guide you, you will be time and $$$ ahead to re-build the boat as designed.

Consider a mast/boom 'kit' from LaFiel (sp) in LA. They will provide all you need in almost any stage of completion for a very fair price. If you are not in a rush, a 43' stick can be a top load in a normal trailer so shipping is reasonable too.

[Kaptin-Jer]

Thanks RH,
We all know that I'll probably end up re-rigging the way it was, but I really want to know what it would take to install a freestanding mast, and if there are any benefits other then losing wire and turnbuckles. I contacted a Guy in New Zealand, He seemed expensive and dealt mostly with Catamarans. I have emailed a Naval Arch. in St Augustine, Fl. who has converted 3 or 4 mono hulls about the same size as mine (38'). I'm waiting for a reply. I guess the whole thing boils down to money.

[RHough]

Thanks RH,
We all know that I'll probably end up re-rigging the way it was, but I really want to know what it would take to install a freestanding mast, and if there are any benefits other then losing wire and turnbuckles. I contacted a Guy in New Zealand, He seemed expensive and dealt mostly with Catamarans. I have emailed a Naval Arch. in St Augustine, Fl. who has converted 3 or 4 mono hulls about the same size as mine (38'). I'm waiting for a reply. I guess the whole thing boils down to money.

In general, the rig is decided early on during the design stage. Rigging stresses are calculated and the structure is designed to support them.

An unstayed rig of the same area as the designed rig will place different loads on the hull structure. In general, highly stressed areas are heavier than lightly stressed areas. After altering the hull/deck to allow for the load of a freestanding rig, weight will be added to support the new loads, but the extra weight designed in for the original rig loads probably cannot be removed, so the boat will be heavier.

There is no doubt that it can be done, but I doubt that it can be done well *and* economically. Just ensuring that the new rig will sail as well as the original will take careful planning. When you say "freestanding" do you mean to convert a sloop to a Nonsuch style cat rig? If you have a boat that was a masthead sloop, how will a freestanding rig get the COE close to the same place as the original rig?

A simple question is why consider a freestanding rig in the first place? In other words, what problem do you have with the original rig that changing to a freestanding rig will solve?

[Kaptin-Jer]

I just received an answer from the Architect in Florida. ... I will be going traditional!!!
Partial quote from his email:

All my mast designs are custom, and start at about $4,000 for the mast tube, and go up from there depending on how much detail is required by the owner.
....... you can expect to pay around $110-$130 per pound. A single mast for a sloop rig for your boat, not including boom, rigging, or sails, will likely weigh around 300 lbs, so that's going to be $33,000 to $39,000, probably. Costs are pretty volatile lately, following the shortages on raw materials everywhere and the rising cost of oil, so I would not be surprised if these numbers are a little off.

That is not including The engineering and material for the below deck work. The mast will end up coasting $45,000.00 Plus boom and fittings at least $50,000 for a boat I paid $800.00. Something doesn't add up:P
:confused: :confused: Am I missing something??

[Kaptin-Jer]

Thanks RH, Another learning experience. I'll leave well enough alone, but I was curious and wanted to find out what was entailed to get to this:

http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/Copernicus.htm

[RHough]

I just received an answer from the Architect if Florida. ... I will be going traditional!!!
Partial quote from his email:

All my mast designs are custom, and start at about $4,000 for the mast tube, and go up from there depending on how much detail is required by the owner.
....... you can expect to pay around $110-$130 per pound. A single mast for a sloop rig for your boat, not including boom, rigging, or sails, will likely weigh around 300 lbs, so that's going to be $33,000 to $39,000, probably. Costs are pretty volatile lately, following the shortages on raw materials everywhere and the rising cost of oil, so I would not be surprised if these numbers are a little off.

That is not including The engineering and material for the below deck work. The mast will end up coasting $45,000.00 Plus boom and fittings at least $50,000 for a boat I paid $800.00. Something doesn't add up:P
:confused: :confused: Am I missing something??

Nope ... for a custom CF mast that sounds very resonable.

The retail cost to refurbish/overhaul a alloy stick is in the $2500-5000 range.

The new rigging for your $800 boat will run $1500-2000.

Unless you find a stick that was built for a sister ship, any used mast will require $1000's to rework (properly) and make fit. Add $50-75 per foot for a sound used mast and you have a $2000-3000 ante to get into the game.

I would be surprised if you can get a mast and boom into a 38' boat for less than $10,000.

[Kaptin-Jer]

We'll keep that between us, Can't let the wife know!

Actually I still have the original mast, in two pieces, but I have it, and the boom. There is a good rigger down here and I have seen his splice work. I might have to go that route, but I'll lose about 4' and I really didn't want to lose any if it could be helped.

[RHough]

We'll keep that between us, Can't let the wife know!

Actually I still have the original mast, in two pieces, but I have it, and the boom. There is a good rigger down here and I have seen his splice work. I might have to go that route, but I'll lose about 4' and I really didn't want to lose any if it could be helped.

If the section was common ... you might find a chunk from another broken mast that will allow you to build/splice a full length spar. The tube is the least of your worries, having all the bits that turn a tube into a mast is the tough part and you have those. :)

[Kaptin-Jer]

Thanks,
I have fought this boat back from the salvage yard for the past 3 years. I'm not going to let a small thing like a mast section stop me now.

[RHough]

Thanks,
I have fought this boat back from the salvage yard for the past 3 years. I'm not going to let a small thing like a mast section stop me now.

Great job so far. Good thing it's a bene. Chances of finding a matching section are good.

[Kaptin-Jer]

If you hear of one give me a shout.

[RHough]

If you hear of one give me a shout.

Year and model? I'll send out a smoke signal or two.

Should be a Z-Spar or Isomat section. (IIRC)

[Kaptin-Jer]

This boat was commissioned in France. Idylle 11.50 1986
I'm patient I still have two years to go before I retire.

[PAR]

Come on Jerry, find a big old pine tree, say at 3:00 in the morning, while you happen to have a chain saw handy, along with a suitable trailer and pluck some of mother nature's finest. How about birdsmouth with Home Depot spruce. I'll bet you can buy the lumber for the whole stick for less then $100 if you use my building method. A few cans of aerosol aluminum (poor man's chrome) from Ace hardware and you're go to go man . . .

[RHough]

Come on Jerry, find a big old pine tree, say at 3:00 in the morning, while you happen to have a chain saw handy, along with a suitable trailer and pluck some of mother nature's finest. How about birdsmouth with Home Depot spruce. I'll bet you can buy the lumber for the whole stick for less then $100 if you use my building method. A few cans of aerosol aluminum (poor man's chrome) from Ace hardware and you're go to go man . . .

Darn, why didn't I think of that! :)

[RHough]

This boat was commissioned in France. Idylle 11.50 1986
I'm patient I still have two years to go before I retire.

I'll see if my old boss knows what section it used and what other boats used the same one.

[TeddyDiver]

http://www.zsparsuk.com/beneteau.htm
Z 531 or Z360...:D

[RHough]

http://www.zsparsuk.com/beneteau.htm
Z 531 or Z360...:D

You are right

Z531 Mast
Z360 Boom

Z531 Mast also used on these Beneteau Models:
FIRST 32S
FIRST 345
FIRST 345S
FIRST 35S7
FIRST 36S7
FIRST CLASS 12

The blow ups show that the masthead is a bolt on (not welded), if just the tube is trashed, you could get a bare mast and duplicate the original and transfer parts.

Other boats may use the section too.

US Spars (http://www.usspars.com/index.asp) is in Carolina (IIRC)

[Kaptin-Jer]

Thanks Teddy, but I like Par's Idea

Actually I will contact Zspar and Carolina now that I know the section. You all have been great. (Even you Paul)
Jerry

[PAR]

Okay Jerry, lets have some fun. Tape off the perimeter of the transom, say about 3/4" inboard of the edges, which will simulate planking thickness. Then apply some 1/16" or thinner veneers of mahogany or other pretty wood, athwartship, varnish up nice and pretty. Or you could use some of the new "Chromeveil" available from "FiberGlast" (http://www.fibreglast.com/showproducts-category-DVDs%20and%20VideosChromaveil-190.html) which will give you a sweet looking wooden transom, but it's not wood and can be applied paper thin and clear or gel coated smooth.

The wooden transom would be just the accent to compliment the wooden, birdsmouth mast and spars you build for less then a few hundred bucks of white spruce framing lumber, from Lowes/Depot.

[Roly]

KJ, Great job you have done congrats!
I *know* the amount of work involved.

Check this out. Might have to call beneteau or get Randy's advice on compatibility.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Charleston-Spars-Mast-Beneteau-First-36-7-Sailboat-NR_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247QQcategoryZ31281QQihZ006QQitemZ160027130978QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD1V

Spars are not cheaper in NZ. 15KNZ for a new one for Pukka. (34' LOA) 48" stick.
That B37.5 First may have been OK.


Roly

[Kaptin-Jer]

No Par, that stuff is too expensive, I can epoxy a couple of sheets of mahogany door skin to the transom then put about 8 coats of varnish on it. That should have it looking Sweet!!
Should I use Mast hoops or nail a channel to the wooden spar for the sail?
Par I was really thinking about cutting down a lamp post. The one's on I-95 seem to be about the right length.

[Kaptin-Jer]

KJ, Great job you have done congrats!

Check this out. Might have to call beneteau or get Randy's advice on compatibility.
Roly

Roly,
I saw this about 3-4 months ago and contacted him. This is a keel stepped mast mine is deck stepped. It also has that "dimple" that is suspect. There have been a few offers that he has turned down. I also asked him about shipping thats when he stopped emailing. He said that would be my problem. He wasn't the easiest guy to deal with,
but thanks for the heads-up

[PAR]

Use a track for the full batten cars.

[Roly]

I have done it both ways. (don't laugh) I built 3 boats from the ground up, and I am on my 2nd "restore". Re-storing a damaged or older hull is the way to go. You always end up gutting everything down to bare hull anyway, no matter what your original intentions were (Like "I will be able to reuse the wiring" - Ha!) To build a 50' hull - well it took me 3 years working on the weekends just to build the mold for a one-off 78' sloop. You need to shop US Auctions.com, ebay and just wait for another hurricane to come through, but from my experience it will save you about 2 years of work. Of course a 50' re-store will still take you at least 4 years. Long liner and Ramona are both right. and by the way I started with a small 27' boat and learned what to do. That took 3 years to finish. Now I'm working on a 38' sailboat, into my 3rd year and I am still looking at 2 more in front of me.

KJ,
Seems to me you are ahead of schedule-how do you do that?
My project seemed to just go backwards for the first 3 yrs until we had just about nothing left! We will end up with an infinitely stronger boat than before, though.
So, I guess it is worth the wait.
http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=3AcuGzRozZOeA&emid=sharshar&linkid=link4

[RHough]

Use a track for the full batten cars.

OK PAR ... you owe me a keyboard ... spit my beer over that ...

Track and battcars on a $200 Home Depot wood mast ... :D

You sound like some of my customers ... :(

[Kaptin-Jer]

KJ,
Seems to me you are ahead of schedule-how do you do that?
My project seemed to just go backwards for the first 3 yrs until we had just about nothing left! We will end up with an infinitely stronger boat though.
http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=3AcuGzRozZOeA&emid=sharshar&linkid=link4

Roly,
Boy you found an old post. Same with my project. It has taken 3 years to get this far and by 'this far' I mean hull restored, deck restored and both painted. I have 70% of the interior wood re-varnished at home. That is it. I pulled the motor out this week end to get that working, so you see I have at least 2 more years of week-end work. My goal is to get it looking decent and the motor working, so I can move it to a cheaper place. Almost there.

But mean while I have to put up being the recipient of Par's humor. Which I will put up with, because he has been a great help to me in the past, and some of my amateurish questions deserve his charming wit.

[poochpounder]

I also want to have a freestanding mast on my 1978 Cheoy Lee Offshore 41. I also spoke at length with Eric Sponbreg and he would sell me plans for, in his words, $500 - $1,000. These would be the plans for a mast that he designed for a Spencer 42, which has pretty much the same dimensions as my Cheoy Lee. Then I spoke with the owner of the Spencer 42, who beefed up his hull and built the carbon fibre/epoxy mast himself. He loves it and says the boat is all around much better. Quite co-incidentally, he sold his old aluminum mast to his neighbor, who put it on his Cheoy Lee Offshore 41, who reported increased performance. Sponberg estimates that the cost to build my own pre-preg carbon fibre mast would be about $10,000. I'm wondering if I can't just build my own wooden mast with aluminum tubing for a core, bead & cove strips laminated to it and cover the whole thing with layers of cloth and epoxy for strength. But, I have no idea about what the stiffness of a mast should be, especially one that is freestanding. So, I ask, is there such a thing as too much stiffness? Is it necessarily a bad thing to have what some might view as excess rigidity in a mast?

Thanks,

Kevin

[Kaptin-Jer]

Pooch, I gave up the idea when I found out the cost involved, I had no idea what I was asking about when I posted. Since then I have become a little more educated on the carbon fiber mast, but sorry to say it is still out of my range. Good luck if you do build one. I wish I had the means to do so. It is really the best way to go.

[TeddyDiver]

Here's pages of one boat building project. There's also pictures and some info how to build a carbon fibre mast... Looks so easy but I wouldn't dare...
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~pekkajlh/boat/story_e1.htm