What's become of Plyboats?

[ALowell]

Does anyone know if Plyboats (www.plyboats.com) is still in business? I have tried to download the free trial software without success. All my emails are undeliverable and calling hasn't produced any results either. I really want to buy the program but so far, it looks like no one is at the other end to receive my money.

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

~ ALowell

[PAR]

My understanding is the software isn't available any more and that the developer has shut down operations. Plyboats was doomed from the limitations of it's concept and lack of shape freedom. The idea was to create "developed" surfaces automatically, but in application, the results left the user with just a handful of curves to work with, severely restricting the user from generating the shapes they wanted.

With the advent of other low cost and free yacht design software, Plyboats wasn't able to compete in this ever advancing market. Even the most simple of competitors offerings, out shine Plyboats abilities. Plyboats was a break through product at conception, but was quickly over taken by improvements in rendering software, which Plyboats didn't keep pace with.

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

See http://carlsondesign.com/#Fun_Shareware ...

Also http://sourceforge.net/projects/freeship/ ...

SH.

[ALowell]

Thank you both for your helpful answers. I will give the Carlson Design one a try.

Do either of you know of any other comparable programs, i.e. ones that will create flat templates for developable surfaces? I have freeship/delftship but the learning curve looks awfully steep and I was hoping something like plyboats would be easier for a 3D novice like myself.

Thanks,

~ ALowell

[FAST FRED]

I was hoping something like plyboats would be easier for a 3D novice like myself.

I am waiting for the program where you just tell the computer what you like.

Nice form , could you add a Lake Powell bow? , OK try it with a sport fish flair instead.

OK could you spring the sheer a bit more?

Still waiting,

FF

[ALowell]

Do I detect a mocking tone?

[bobg3723]

The aforementioned Carlson Chine Hull is a good program. You can read in offset tables, do some basic calcs, spline a chine hull (I forget how may chines, but more than six for sure) and loft the patterns. Its limited to the number of stations (I think its 16), so the hull on display will look blocky. It will output a plan view as a DXF.

HullsFiddle is an Excell worksheet designed to work with Calson Chine Hulls Designer. It's included in the Hulls download.

HullWiz is the closest thing to a boat style "wizard" available. Its also designed to work with Carlson Chine Hulls Designer. Its free.
http://www.geocities.com/lew_clayman/hulwiz_define.htm

Have fun.

Bob

[messabout]

Plyboats is a fun program to play with. Par is quite right that it is outmoded by a long way.
Limitations of the program include:
The program asks for location of maximum beam . When you choose the location for beam, the program will force you to have maximum depth at that point also. Bummer!
The program allows a maximum of two chines, so you can not get much in the way of a soft turn at the chine.

The program does some fairly elemetary stuff like finding center of bouyancy, righting moment at any heel angle, and area of skin as well as area of wetted surface and shape of underwater waterlines at whatever heel angle. It does a remarkably good job of providing dimensions for laying out precut panels, just in case you want to do a stitch and glue boat. The tutorial is very easy to deal with. In about 20 minutes you'll have the thing going satisfactorily. The tutorial has some good stuff in it like weights of various materials, stress tables for plywood, anthropomorphic charts, and statistical information about boat weights, length to beam ratios and more. This is a useful program if you are satisfied with unsophisticated (not to say worthless) boats. Given the limitations of Plyboats I would try a more versatile program.

[ALowell]

Anthropomorphic charts sound useful -- how many other programs have that?

Anyway, it sounds like Carlson Design is my best bet. As soon as I have some free time I will give it a try and let everyone know how it works out.

Thanks for the input,

~ ALowell

[philSweet]

A couple of more notes about Plyboats.
1) As far as I know, it was never compatible with windows. I bought one of the last copies and was told I needed a windows 99 or older system with an honest DOS shell to operate it. I kept an old machine around for years just for plyboats.
2) Its shortcomings not withstanding, it was a hoot to design a boat in ten minutes and then tweek it and check how parameters changed. There is real value in studying the boats that you can design with plyboats.
3) My copy still had a few bugs in the stability calculation routine. The info was handy, but I wouldn't trust it to three decimal places.
4) The book that accompanied the software is very handy, as someone else pointed out.
5) The book decribes developable surfaces and how to draft them, but the software doesn't help you in this. You can definitly draft nondevelopable shapes with Plyboats.

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

It was a C- proggie ...

SH.

[popperspop]

I purchased a Windows XP compatable copy of plyboats 2.01 last August.
It included a 116 page manual on a CD.....$ 48.75
Ray Clark Enterprises
5861 Woodboro Drive
Huntington Beach, CA 92649
(714) 840-7284 [ Voice & Fax ]
rclark183@socal.rr.com

Good Luck.....Dwight

[FAST FRED]

"Do I detect a mocking tone?"

NO the despair of a computer ignoramus.

FF

[cshire]

Have a look at the Carene software.

Limited compared to more advanced software, but still a lot of fun to play with.

[popperspop]

I downloaded the Carene software and it looks like just what I was looking for for a future project. A perfect hit. Thanks.

Dwight

[jjoftheusa]

Design Software.

Formsys started allowing a fully operational version of the Maxsurf design software to be downloaded by students and backyard boat builders in 2004. I now using my 5th verson, it expires Jan 1, 2010. Not a problem as you can renew each year. I have to admit that it is not my primary design tool. I do the primary design in Autocad 2000 or Multisurf 4.8 (both are very expensive) then import the design into Maxsurf for fine tuning. Try it, use the online tutorials and other learning modules to get up to speed. You will not be sorry.


Register Here: http://www.formsys.com/academic/maxsurf/

[epoxymanuk]

We no longer have carene software for download on our site
http://www.epoxy-resins.co.uk
Can you please remove any links to this software
Rob

[lewisboats]

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/robert.laine/

You can still get Carene 2008 here for free.

[ZOLASAIL]

jjoftheusa,
Do you use an add on for AutoCAD? if not please PM as I have and use AutoCAD mainly in a 2D format for work and would love to be able to use it for basic hull designs. Any info or help you have for using AutoCAD for hull design would be great.

Thanks

[ugo_mariani]

The program has given me the possibility to design two very satisfactory boats: one of 3.6 m (oar and sail) and the other of nearly 5 m motor, stitch and glue. I wouldn't discard it so lightly. The development of the plysheets is perfect. I attach a photo giving only a partial vue of the little one. Me at oars.

[ancient kayaker]

I didn't know Carenne was still around. I have an old version, not very flexible but surely the easiest to use hull design program ever created.

[lewisboats]

I didn't know Carenne was still around. I have an old version, not very flexible but surely the easiest to use hull design program ever created.


True...and the panels, while perfectly developable, are kind of restricted and very conservative in that there is quite a bit of fudge factor available...especially in the bow area shape. Carene allows very little in the way of twisting which is still quite doable. I usually bang up a basic hull near to the shape I am looking for and then import into FreeShip! to massage it. Use the "save as XYZ" format to save your file and FreeShip! will import it. If you are like me and like to use feet and inches, I usually work in Carene as if I am using feet and decimals, then import it, change to imperial and scale to .3048 in all dimensions...comes out perfect. LOA that starts as 12 m comes out 12 ft etc. Seeing as I already know about what kind of displacement the hull I am modeling should be at I do the lines to reflect that neighborhood so when I get it settled into Freeship there is only a little tweaking to do as far as that goes. If I am way off I can go back and alter the basic hull and re-import. It is so much easier to tell the program to move the bottom of the transom up .125 and get all the lines to fair along the hull length without having to move individual points and try to keep everything fair as I go. I think of it as doing the Macro hull in Carene and the Micro in FreeShip!.

Try the 2008 version...it has an option to do multiple chines over the normal 5, allowing you to consider lapstrake or even wide strip as a method of construction during your design phase. You can also play a bit with the bow shapes in this mode by varying the number in the stem shape around the zero default. + numbers give a more rounded shape, and - numbers more raked...in profile of course.

[ancient kayaker]

I hadn't realised Carene's XYZ format would import to FreeShip. Thanks for the info. I had the 2003 version which permitted a Vee bottom with limited twisting and 2 constant camber 2 planks; that's about it, although there were some features I never figured out without the manual. A constant camber plank is easy enough to develop graphically but it is a handy program nonetheless. The other thing that is so great in Carene is the way it displays the effect of moving the load fore and aft; it's very useful to be able to quickly see how stable a given hull is. I have downloaded the 2008 version and run through the manual which is going to be most useful; thanks again.

[lewisboats]

I asked Martjin to include it way back with the first version or 2 of FreeShip and as it was simply coordinates it went in well. I still wish I could find something that would give me a good look at the waterline shape with the boat heeled a various angles...and the displacement figures to go with it but so far anything that does is WAY out of my $ range...and probably too complicated for my pea brain to boot!

[scott_in_az]

Hi All,

I seem to be suffering from the pea brain effect as someone else remorsed. I just downloaded the Carene software for a bit of fun (getting a 1st draft skiff sorted out fairly well), but have not been able to access the manual refered to in posts above. Great user info in the previous postings. Any other user tips would be greatly appreciated.

Scott

[lewisboats]

you'll have to ask specific questions about what you need...I never had the manual and it took me a while to figure things out. Funny...I never really got the hang of Hulls, but I tried it after using Carene so I think it poisoned me. There are a few quirks in Carene but I suppose there are in all programs...reflections of the writer I guess.

Just how did you access the manual if I might ask?

[ancient kayaker]

... I still wish I could find something that would give me a good look at the waterline shape with the boat heeled a various angles...and the displacement figures to go with it but so far anything that does is WAY out of my $ range...

Free!Ship will allow you to rotate the hull about the X axis but it rotates the 2 halves of the hull in opposite directions! I haven't tried it but it may be possible to get it to provide the shape of the waterline for 2 cases rotated +x and -X degrees, and join these in a graphics program, but it won't probably won't be able to provide the displacement becaue of the leaks ot detects. Maybe if one side is displayed and a vertical wall raised from the keel-line, but again I haven't tried it.

[lewisboats]

Interesting...I will have to try that...like right now!

[lewisboats]

Well...Slap your grandma...it works!...Sorta. You close the hull along the centerline and you can get a good picture of the lee side as you adjust the waterline to reflect the displacement...a bit fiddly to do as you have to keep checking back and forth and resetting the waterline to get to the target displacement.

So now to try it with a - setting and see what the windward side will look like and if the two can be combined to provide a decent idea of what the heeled boat waterline will look like.

[lewisboats]

Well...with the meager tools at my disposal (Paint) and the obtainable views that I have been able to come up with so far...You CAN combine them up to a certain point...that point being that the centerline cannot be out of the water. DUH! If the centerline is out of the water then the rest of the hull is too...stupid!

Anyhoo...here is the result at 15 deg of heel...

http://www.angelfire.com/ego/lewisboatworks/Stuff/TiltCombined.JPG

The bottom is the windward side...the green is hull bottom out of the water, and the top is the lee side. Seems to work! It isn't perfect but it is pretty close...enough to give you an idea of what it would be at heeling angles


How I did this:
First...Save it as a different file! Then extrude the keel line up to the highest part of the boat to get the leakers above the waterline. DON'T do this AFTER rotating as you will be extruding at an angle to the hull! Deselect all then Transform/Rotate and rotate along the longitudinal axis...+ numbers will give you the lee side and - numbers will give you the windward side. The boat is going to rotate around the LCF so things are going to look a little weird in the bodyplan view. Deselect the Show control net button so the points disappear. Use the perspective view to get a plan view along the centerline looking down and right click and save image. Do the same, starting with the original and saving to another file name and tilt the hull in the opposite direction by the same amount. Open one file in your image editor of choice then flip, copy and open another copy of the editor with the other image, paste and line up the images.

Thank you Ancient WiseMan...for pointing me in the right direction! :D

Edited to add: you might want to fiddle with the color scheme to get the best results for seeing the waterlines

[ancient kayaker]

Way to go! Not wisdom really, just an idea that popped into my dusty old mind when I read your post! I was hoping there was a way to finesse the righting moment out of that but the CoG stays stubbornly on the centerline.

You can do the same thing from the bodyplan view, save juggling the viewpoint in Perspective, and any of the 4 views can be expanded to full screen; just in case you didn't know.

Afterthought: there is probably an ideal thread to post your method for others to see in the software forum ...

[scott_in_az]

OK,

here are my first two questions for those with some experience witht the Carene hull design software.

1. The stem angle entry on the bottom panel design page appears grayed out...cannot be adjusted..seems to stay at 15 degrees. Always so? Not a problem for me, just curious.

2. At the bottom center of the drawing/grid page there is an entry labled StationX=___. is this for entering the number of stations that will eventually be drawn? or perhaps the interval between stations? Thanks for you input. If I have more questions I will start a new thread rather than hiding this under the PlyBoats thread.




Scott

[ancient kayaker]

1. The stem angle entry on the bottom panel design page appears grayed out...cannot be adjusted..seems to stay at 15 degrees. Always so? Not a problem for me, just curious.

That's because the stem angle is determined by how the planks meet at the stem. If you enter a width for the bow transom, you can then enter a stem angle. You will then have a pram.

2. At the bottom center of the drawing/grid page there is an entry labled StationX=___. is this for entering the number of stations that will eventually be drawn? or perhaps the interval between stations?

Enter a location here and click on Station; you can enter more than one but they are not saved, at least in my version of Carene, so you may have to re-enter them each time you open a hull design file.

[scott_in_az]

Thanks Terry,

Pram/Garvey or default stem...not really a problem, guess on my Banks Dory experiment I'll have to vary the transom/tombstone slope to match the bow. From what I can see, the version I have won't do double enders. Wasn't really going there anyway, mostly skiffs and dorys at the mo.

[lewisboats]

The stem entry angle is determined by the flare of the side panels...you will notice that as the flare increases the angle of the stem rakes more. Yes..you will have to put a lot of rake to the transom to get it to double end but it will do it up to a high amount of side flare. Try sticking 40 or 50 deg in for the transom rake with a side flare of say 60 deg and you should get a double ended boat. Like I said...you can vary the stem on multi chine boats if you use the Auto planking option and play with the stem shape numbers...+ is more rounded and - is more raked. Carene will not do a curved bow shape on a single plank nor will it allow a plumb stem with side flare...you can take care of that after importing into FreeShip.

[ancient kayaker]

When I was using Carene to design double-ended canoes I had to insert the maximum transom angle it would accept which was 70 degrees, to avoid having a transom in the design. If this angle was not enough to eliminate the transom, then I did 2 designs, one for the stem as usual and another for the canoe stern which I got as the stem of a modified hull; if the canoe was symmetrical I just copied the forward half for the stern. Mostly I was just interested in getting the plank developments.

[scott_in_az]

I had thought of the split drawing option, or of flopping a symetrical design fpr double enders. Great input on controlling the end angles by side flair and fudging transom angle and such.

[lewisboats]

Seeing as virtually all the stuff I do is for plywood planking, Carene is my go to to begin any hull. I can usually have what I want roughed out in less than 20 minutes then just transfer the rough shape to Freeship for the real massaging. Sometimes what looks OK in halfbreadth is either too skinny or too fat when I look at it full beam so I pop back in and adjust then reimport. What is really funny is that Carene...which is a stickler for keeping things developable will let you put "Keel Advance" into a hull (Which is a conical projection I believe)(And it does work in real world on plywood) but when you import into Freeship it reduces it significantly and tries to tell you that there are issues with it. I usually don't give too much weight to that because I have seen what kind of twist the plywood will take in that area and you can get a pretty big chin on the front end of the bottom by sewing them book-faced and opening up the panels.

[ancient kayaker]

Free!Ship will show plank distortion with a red highlight using the developability check display mode but I find plates shown mostly in red can still be formed in ply. The plate development tool provides a value for the edge error, I have been able to form plates with up to 0.005 (0.5%) without much difficulty.

I created a Free!Ship model of Rushton's classic Wee Lassie canoe, see pic. The bottom plates show up entirely red using the developability check but I made a half-scale half-model of the bottom pair of plates and they formed nicely. Free!Ship's plate development tool shows these plates as asymmetrical although the lines have fore-aft symmetry; if this happens I cut the plate oversized in the suspect zone and trim them to fit. However, for the half-model I just made the bottom/inner edges straight; the model had a lot of rocker. This confirmed that the general shape shown by Free!Ship, which was concave and which I did not believe, was nonetheless fairly close.

Interestingly, Rushton built the Wee lassie using 2 planks per side for the bottom. I found these were almost exactly parallel so I merged them into 1 plank per side. Obviously this concentrated the stresses, but the marine ply I used did not break, and glued up nicely. Rushton's original boat was built with cedar planks riveted to oak ribs; no doubt he had trouble getting the bottom shape out of one plank per side using these materials and methods.

My boats are built with chine logs: I glue the logs to the flat planks before I bend the planks. This slightly modifies the resulting hull shape as the edges of the planks stretch or compress differently with the logs attached, but so far the effect has been acceptable.

[Martijn_vE]

Free!Ship will show plank distortion with a red highlight using the developability check display mode but I find plates shown mostly in red can still be formed in ply.
That's because the criterion to determine whether a surface is developable is rather strict in FREE!ship.
Surfaces like yours can not be build in steel for example without torturing the metal.

Wood (ply also) on the other hand can be forced into a not entirely developable shape in a lot of cases due to the elasticity of the material.
Theoretically developability is only a matter of mathematics (geometrical property of a surface), in practice material properties also play an important role when it comes to determining if a surface can be made from sheet materials.

[Scott Carter]

Re. developing 3D contoured surfaces into flat panels, TouchCAD specializes in this. It's a really nice design program with hydrostatics built in.

[epoxymanuk]

We no longer have carene software for download on our site
http://www.epoxy-resins.co.uk
Can you please remove any links to this software
Rob

Hi I have put Carene 2008 back up on the website it is a free download and the manual I published is in the same zip file. Enjoy
Rob

[lewisboats]

Thank you most kindly Sir!

Edited to add:...Slick manual. I'll have to take some time when I have it to go through it thoroughly. Thanks again.

[epoxymanuk]

Hi I do not visit the forums a great deal but if you need any help with the software I will try to offer assistance but there may be delays in my replies unless you use my contact form on the website.
Carene can do a few things that are not listed in the manual such as creating cambered deck by setting a new plank with a height of greater than half the width of the hull in all three boxes and then set the angle to 175 deg this will give you a 5 deg cambered deck that reaches the centre line of the hull.
I will post other bits of info when I can remember them
Regards Rob

[ThomD]

I had number 25 in Plyboats, and did some work on one of the Betas. Recently been getting back into it. I always liked it, and came across some articles while searching for contact info, that indicated a number of big name designers that had used it. These included some personal favorites like Bo Oram, and Sam Devlin. While it is possible to come up with far better programs, if the design process is in any way connected to the reality of making boats float, I am not sure anything more than Plyboats is really needed.

Anyway. The new version of Plyboats is nearing, though if making software is anything like boats, never predict the launch date until it is wet. I hope to see it.

[troy2000]

Question (from a design program illiterate): will any of those programs that develop plywood panels work backward? In other words, would I be able to change the dimensions describing one or more developed panels, and see how it changes the hull?

[lewisboats]

Not to my knowledge.