Stern cabin - too odd on small boats?

[Claus Riepe]

Recently, in one thread on small (20') cabin ketch sailers in another forum, someone proposed a stern cabin as opposed to the usual forward cuddy. I must say I was (still am) impressed by the concept.
Primarily, because all forward cuddies on such small boats suffer the same problems, the pointed bow does not lend itself to a double bed, the foredeck with the anchoring gear is difficult to access, and the cabin roof has to be heavily supported i.e. to be heavy in order to withstand the compression from the main mast and the weight of people working the mast or crossing over the roof.
However, the concept was rather violently opposed, the main reason being that a stern cabin would 'look too odd'.

What would you say?
BTW, the idea of a stern cabin came originally from the Atlantic rowing boats.

[charmc]

Recently, in one thread on small (20') cabin ketch sailers in another forum, someone proposed a stern cabin as opposed to the usual forward cuddy. I must say I was (still am) impressed by the concept.
Primarily, because all forward cuddies on such small boats suffer the same problems, the pointed bow does not lend itself to a double bed, the foredeck with the anchoring gear is difficult to access, and the cabin roof has to be heavily supported i.e. to be heavy in order to withstand the compression from the main mast and the weight of people working the mast or crossing over the roof.
However, the concept was rather violently opposed, the main reason being that a stern cabin would 'look too odd'. What would you say?

Claus,

You make a good point that, between the narrow confines of the bow and the dominance of the mast, a forward cabin in a small sailboat has many disadvantages. IMHO the appearance of a small boat with an aft cabin, like any design, will depend on how the dimensional proportions are laid out. There are many motor sailers with relatively high freeboard and an aft pilothouse. They certainly do not look long and sleek, but they tend to look sturdy and functional. Here are a few samples:

[charmc]

Guillermo, a frequent contributor here and a naval architect with experience in small boats of different types, would have some good thoughts.

[tinhorn]

I think they look cooler than hell.

Compare an MG TD to a Lotus Europa - much different appearance, but both look good.

[PAR]

Tall deck structures, well aft will cause the boat to "march" around on it's hook or mooring and also has similar "ends" of the yacht, confines difficulties. Not so much the V shape typical of the bow, but the shallow, truncated shapes common is a stern. With typical freeboard been often considerably less then the forward sections, the space would be more confined (headroom wise) then a forward layout.

Another issue of importance, is what happens to the cockpit location which has to be moved forward. If the aft cabin arrangement has similar accommodations as a forward one, then the well forward, midship cockpit will be quite high (over the cabin below and probably a pretty wet place heading into weather. This is a common complaint in center cockpit craft now, of conventional arrangement

From a practical view point I think you'd be limited to craft of 30 LWL before the idea becomes particularly useful. Beginning with this size, considering a small aft cabin with a conventional layout forward is increasingly more practical. At 35' very doable.

Anything with a mast stepped on it will have to be heavily trussed, be this a deck or coach roof. The compression loads have to be transmitted to the keel and hull shell somehow. A compression post and tie rods can eliminate much of the "heavy" beam arrangements necessary without them. A single bulkhead under the step often doesn't absorb the loads as nicely as we like, as has been born in many production and custom yachts over the years.

In the end, many a workboat has incorporated a wheelhouse aft with a large working deck forward. This is a practical arrangement. The accommodations are typically quite minimal, enough to house the crew, engine and helm, but not much else. Again size is the key ingredient to permitting comfortable accommodations. At 30' you have enough beam to place berths on each side of the centerline mounted engine, with room to pass around the box. Smaller then this, clever engineering and ever increasing compromise must be employed to meet the design goals and provide useable spaces for humans.

[Claus Riepe]

... I think you'd be limited to craft of 30 LWL before the idea becomes particularly useful. ...

Meaning, aft cabin concept quite useless for boats of 20 LWL?
- I think not.

In Atlantic rowing boats of 20 LWL -or even less than that- the aft cabin in connection with the raised bow makes the unballasted boats uncapsizeable (self-righting from inversion). Same would be possible for small coastal cruisers.
Then, an aft cabin does not obstruct the forward view of the sitting helmsman like all forward cuddies on small boats do.
Then, one could work the mast and foredeck from the safety of inside the cockpit, not from the roof of the cuddy.
Then, one could imagine the helmsman could steer the boat sitting inside the aft cabin, in foul weather.
Then, if there was an outboarder well inside the cabin, that well could occasionally double as a ... loo?

Agreed, on a small 20LWL sailboat nobody could make an aft cabin 'invisible'.
Someone said an aft cabin would make a small cruiser look like a sailing 'shoe'.
But hey, in my book form follows function, and there would be so many benefits from an aft cabin concept, I would not mind that look so much as to discard the concept altogether.

[alan white]

I've tried to put an aft cabin on a lot of designs and headroom always is an issue. This is in comparison with a forward house on the same boat. The height is also exaggerated becuase the sheer is usually lower aft.
The idea is appealing though, so it crops up from time to time. A small boat, under 30 ft, unless a high displacement (over, say, 15k lbs), won't have standing headroom without having a rather high looking aft cabin.
As it is, the aft cabin sole will be a postage stamp in any case as the hull rises quickly there. Perfect for a vee berth, however, or better still, a toilet/sail locker/workbench area. Even without headroom, one can stand in the hatch opening.
Aesthetics are like wine. While knowing good wine is the best way to appreciate good wine, it also means dissatisfaction with what others would call a nice tasting wine. Same with boat shapes. Most people (look around most harbors) are not connesiours of the fine line. But you may not notice this either, if you are one of them.
Should you defer to the practiced artistic eye of the designer or would it be better to stay happily oblivious to knowledge that can only bring you grief or ecstasy every time you look around?
Either way, though I would personally prefer to see a bit more beauty out there.

Alan

[Boston]

I have also considered a stern cabin for my planned coaster
more of a pilot house actually
not sure I like the look
but I like the idea of staying out of the rain
Im planning on a summer or two in Ketchikan and I think it rains about 260 days a year there and some kind of bikini is going to have to do

[marshmat]

Im planning on a summer or two in Ketchikan and I think it rains about 260 days a year there and some kind of bikini is going to have to do
Bikini, or did you mean Bimini? (I suppose either works....)

I did some rough sketches a while back of a 2-person cruiser about this size, with the cabin occuping the aft 10 or so feet and the cockpit ahead of it. That was a powerboat- no mast. But I think it is possible- although not necessarily easy or comfortable- to cram a cabin in the stern. It doesn't work if you look at it from a traditional standing-headroom perspective, but if you look at things from a tent-camping viewpoint you can fit a fair bit in without standing headroom. As has already been mentioned, though, the problem is that the cockpit then ends up being a very wet place to be when bashing into any kind of seas....

[Boston]

eh bikini for fun
but ya
was thinkin about covering the cockpit with one but had some concerns
but those things cant last in a squall
and if you did get hit by a wave I would think its done for
now your getting hit by a wave and a bimini
so I started looking at designing a short pilot house and what that did to the design
ended up a midgets pilot house designed in carbon fibre to keep it light
and for the pilot to be seated so you could see over it from what is left of the cockpit
it also extended over the companion way hatch slide
the hole arrangement left the cockpit were it was and only changed the wheel location

end up you have a nice seat with a view
handy access to a cup of coffee
sheets and hauls are all still right were they are
got a duck a little longer on the way out the hatch but hey
should keep my dry

[Claus Riepe]

Guys,
I am returning to this because there came a novel idea, two actually.

With the aesthetics of a stern cabin on a very small boat (20 ft.) admittedly being difficult, up came the idea to make this stern cabin a temporary i.e. removable one. A kind of convertible boat with a stern cabin hardtop for the odd weekend expedition.
That was the first idea.

But then came another:
If you have such a removable hardtop cabin roof, hey, why not design it so that if taken off it can be flipped around and be used as a tender to row ashore in??

Probably a bit far fetched that one, but I think there is good thinking in this.

BTW I actually knew a guy in France who had a cabin roof for an open boat which could be flipped around to become part of the open cockpit.

Any comments?

[gonzo]

The problem is that when you go onshore, the living area is open to the weather and thieves. Does the crew that stay onboard get wet with the rain?

[marshmat]

I would question whether a 20' boat really has much of a need to carry a dinghy. Even a tiny one will be hard to fit- and as Gonzo points out, using your hardtop as a dinghy leaves the boat vulnerable when you're away. If I had to put a dinghy on such a small boat, it'd be either an inflatable or a folding/nesting hard-body.

For dual-use enclosed/open space, simple canvas (Sunbrella) enclosures are pretty hard to beat.

[gonzo]

I think the hull has to be designed with an aft cabin in mind. It should be rather beamy at the stern to be useful.

[Doug Lord]

This is a 20' motorsailer I designed and built in the early 80's. I liked the Fisher motorsailers and tried to scale that look down. Has a v berth forward and a double berth(made out of settee). Has inside and outside steering and a center cockpit. It was fun sailing w/o having to look thru a cabin and nice to be able to go inside in some conditions.

[apex1]

Claus,
die Zeit die Du damit verschwendet hast eine unsinnige Idee zu verfolgen, hättest Du besser umgesetzt, ein geeignetes Boot zu finden.

the time you wasted to follow a stupid idea, you would have better spent finding a boat to suit your needs.

Doug,
I have it a bit hard to see a Fisher ms in your design, sorry.

Regards
Richard

[Doug Lord]

Thats ok, Apex. The wood strips on the side and the angle of the front of the cabin are similar. I recessed the topsides to allow the teak to appear recessed -its not exact but with the two boats next to each other you may see a similarity.

[Claus Riepe]

Claus,
the time you wasted to follow a stupid idea, you would have better spent finding a boat to suit your needs.
Regards
Richard

Richard,

you think a stern cabin on a small boat is a 'stupid idea', and any thought about it a 'waste of time'?

Well, I think you are wrong.

And BTW I do have a boat suiting my needs, it is in the 'Wooden Boat Small Boats 2010'. Only, it does not have a rowable stern cabin yet.

Regards,
Claus

[Claus Riepe]

Further,
take a look.

This IS a stern cabin sailer.
I think the guy who designed it has not wasted his time, he did an excellent job:

[wardd]

this as a stern cabin and it look ok to me


http://www.stvincent.ac.uk/Heritage/1797/Victory/images/galleries.jpg

[bntii]

The Northsea 27 is the smallest production sailboat I know about with a aft cabin. The owners I have spoken with like the design.

http://www.norseayachts.com/images/photo01-500x637.jpg

Larger by a good measure than you perhaps are referring to @ 25' waterline.

[apex1]

Further,
take a look.

This IS a stern cabin sailer.
I think the guy who designed it has not wasted his time, he did an excellent job:

Sorry, I do´nt see a aft cabin. And I doubt the 20 ft too!
But if there is one, why do´nt you just copy it?


Doug
of course there are similarities.
btw. I like the Fishers very much, a perfect styling (and good boats too)

bntii

nice boat, but as you mentioned, a bit bigger. And I think that is about the min. size for a aft cabin.

[Claus Riepe]

Sorry, I do´nt see a aft cabin. .. Richard

Here it is. And the boat is 23 ft LOA.

[apex1]

Where is IT ???

Ah, and three feet are almost one meter. Thats not much on my passagemaker but a lot on such a vessel.

[Claus Riepe]

Where is IT ???


OOPS, photos went missing, sorry.

[Tad]

Heather is about the smallest true aft pilothouse manageable. I think she's either 14' or 16'?

37264

37265

[gonzo]

That's more like 22' or 23'. Compare to the size of the people standing on the dock

[Gilbert]

Heather is 16 feet.
And 3000 lbs.

[Tad]

Yes, the designer claims 16'

http://timnolanboatdesign.com/index.php?page=home

[yipster]

thought slocums spray was one but no.. i allways was intriqued by stern cabins on reversed s sheer strake boats tho, hmm..

[apex1]

OOPS, photos went missing, sorry.

Ok, then. We see a boat thats 23´instead of 20´and it does NOT have a aft cabin. The piece of wood and canvas might give a sufficient shelter for a Porta Potty, but aft cabin is different.

[Claus Riepe]

Here is another drawing of the boat. It's a dutch design called 'Woelwater'. These popup cabin roofs are for instance also used on the Norfolk Broad boats. A clever way to hide a stern cabin from view.

[apex1]

wonderful, and what was your question now?
Or was this the answer?
When we go far enough off the given parameter, we always find the right solution to confirm a biased opinion?

ahh vergiß es..

[Claus Riepe]

For completeness,
here is another example for a stern cabin on a small boat (taken from http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71730 ).

And then there also was the Buckler MkII in the eighties. Sorry no photo, but many will remember.

So again the question, with the known problems of the forward cabin design and building resulting from the compression loads of the main mast etc., why are there so few stern cabins on small boats around today?

[Claus Riepe]

The Buckler MkII,
here is a photo:

[boat fan]

I can go along with form follows function Claus.........

But that Buckler is , well .....plain ugly :(..

That mizzen ....not in a good place for an aft cabin layout.
Could work on a Yawl...better on a single masted rig at this size I think..

[gonzo]

Gratis is a nice looking boat

[souljour2000]

"Gratis" is indeed beautiful...thanks for posting her Claus...I guess I don't like how she seems to have only wheel steering though...I have also flirted with the idea of stern cabins in a 20-footer...namely transforming my '83 Hunter 20 into one...I was inspired by the roominess of the Buckler aft cabin/wheelhouse and the head the buckler has in the forecastle area though not so much by it's overall appearance.
If you ask me...starting at 22-23 feet you can have a low headroom sleeping berth aft that could still facilitate a standard aft cockpit above it.
As for the Buckler 23 stern cabin ...it's really a freaking stateroom at that size boat and it's also a galley but could be a wheelhouse too if you keep a very low "forecastle" for visibility...doesn't leave many great options for a lower aft berth or a cockpit above though. The Buckler 23 , though "ugly" is one of the most intriguing designs under 25 feet that I have ever seen for a family cruiser.

[sharpii2]

Tall deck structures, well aft will cause the boat to "march" around on it's hook or mooring and also has similar "ends" of the yacht, confines difficulties. Not so much the V shape typical of the bow, but the shallow, truncated shapes common is a stern. With typical freeboard been often considerably less then the forward sections, the space would be more confined (headroom wise) then a forward layout.

Another issue of importance, is what happens to the cockpit location which has to be moved forward. If the aft cabin arrangement has similar accommodations as a forward one, then the well forward, midship cockpit will be quite high (over the cabin below and probably a pretty wet place heading into weather. This is a common complaint in center cockpit craft now, of conventional arrangement

From a practical view point I think you'd be limited to craft of 30 LWL before the idea becomes particularly useful. Beginning with this size, considering a small aft cabin with a conventional layout forward is increasingly more practical. At 35' very doable.

Anything with a mast stepped on it will have to be heavily trussed, be this a deck or coach roof. The compression loads have to be transmitted to the keel and hull shell somehow. A compression post and tie rods can eliminate much of the "heavy" beam arrangements necessary without them. A single bulkhead under the step often doesn't absorb the loads as nicely as we like, as has been born in many production and custom yachts over the years.

In the end, many a workboat has incorporated a wheelhouse aft with a large working deck forward. This is a practical arrangement. The accommodations are typically quite minimal, enough to house the crew, engine and helm, but not much else. Again size is the key ingredient to permitting comfortable accommodations. At 30' you have enough beam to place berths on each side of the centerline mounted engine, with room to pass around the box. Smaller then this, clever engineering and ever increasing compromise must be employed to meet the design goals and provide useable spaces for humans.

I would think a high forward cabin would do that.

Wouldn't a high aft cabin act as the tail of a weathervane, causing the bow to tend to point upwind?

I have recently done two scale sketches with aft cabins. One is in the "...design ideas..." thread in this 'sailboats section.

In it, I describe the aft cabin as a mizzen that can never be struck.

The big problem I had was trying to figure out how to make a simple but cheap steering system that could go along with the aft cabin.

Auxiliary power was also a problem.

I added a long keel wit generous areato cut down drift.

I just don't see how a boat with much of its windage aft would wanmt to charge around its anchorage.

[souljour2000]

I dunno about sailing at anchor with aft cabin boats either...I bet it wouldn't be too hard to make a scale boat out of papier mache and try some different things with a kiddie pool and a decent fan...just watch out for that electrical cord...!

p.s.- you can start with a base shape and then add stern cabin shape with any good craft glue..most are water-based but fairly waterproof for a few minutes...then let the thing dry out and add a new shape ...rinse repeat...maybe I will try it...screw all the high tech Bethesda naval model basins.!..Anyone see 60 minutes a couple years ago about what happened to six new US coast guard cutters?..they tried to add an aft section to each of them ...after Lockheed or someone screwed up the stern additions...the USCG declined them and they couldn't even give them to the Brazilian Navy because they determined they wouldn't make it to Brazil...

[timothy22]

Been around for years, tons of versions built. I've seen some photos of the aft cabin that look very impressive for a 30 foot boat.

[boat fan]

Nice one Tim....does not look too bad either.

Just shows what only few more ft in length can achieve.

[Claus Riepe]

...
Wouldn't a high aft cabin act as the tail of a weathervane, causing the bow to tend to point upwind?

... I describe the aft cabin as a mizzen that can never be struck.

... The big problem I had was trying to figure out how to make a simple but cheap steering system that could go along with the aft cabin.

Auxiliary power was also a problem.

Sharpii,
thanks for that aspect, the welcome stabilizing effect from a stern cabin windage.
In one raid last year we were rowing into some headwind. We overtook and subsequently watched one boat with a small forward cabin which could no longer be rowed straight ahead due to the forward cabin windage destabilizing it's course. The rowers were not able to hold her.
In this context I am attaching two photos of stern cabin rowing boats, the RNLI 'Ryder' lifeboat and Andre Mateus' Atlantic crossing boat.
Quite clear that the cabins are not merely there to self-right the boat from inversion, but also to stabilize their upwind capabilty.

Re the steering problem,
a wire rudder yoke would work well. We tried stainless steel wire, which broke quickly. Ever since it's Dyneema, and that shows no sign of tiring over the blocks.
Re the auxiliary,
electric could be a solution to keep the stern cabin free from gasoline/exhaust fumes. Only last week we saw a boat with an electric pod integrated into the rudderblade.

[sharpii2]

Sharpii,
thanks for that aspect, the welcome stabilizing effect from a stern cabin windage.
In one raid last year we were rowing into some headwind. We overtook and subsequently watched one boat with a small forward cabin which could no longer be rowed straight ahead due to the forward cabin windage destabilizing it's course. The rowers were not able to hold her.
In this context I am attaching two photos of stern cabin rowing boats, the RNLI 'Ryder' lifeboat and Andre Mateus' Atlantic crossing boat.
Quite clear that the cabins are not merely there to self-right the boat from inversion, but also to stabilize their upwind capabilty.

Re the steering problem,
a wire rudder yoke would work well. We tried stainless steel wire, which broke quickly. Ever since it's Dyneema, and that shows no sign of tiring over the blocks.
Re the auxiliary,
electric could be a solution to keep the stern cabin free from gasoline/exhaust fumes. Only last week we saw a boat with an electric pod integrated into the rudderblade.

Thanks, Claus.

Just for fun, I'll upload a sketch I did for that other post.

It is a 20ft x 8ft scow with an aft cabin which is supposed to have standing headroom for a 6ft 4in man.

The full keel on it was drawn to enable it to sail on a super shallow lake, which has an average depth of only one meter.

Not all of its design problems have been solved as it is just a concept drawing to show about the smallest, lightest sailboat that I think can support such a cabin and still be manageable.

[Claus Riepe]

Sharpii,
thanks for that.
I know there will be guys out there ridiculing rough sketches, but then I think it must be understood that this is about discussing the concept of stern cabins on small boats. This is not about perfection.

I have got two sketches here from my friend Tony L. (Thanks T.!).
These are about putting a stern cabin hardtop on an even smaller boat that you did. ( And having a junk rig into the bargain.)

We had a discussion about 'Form Follows Function' and one guy said that that is no good with boats. I disagree, boats -at least until the advent of the engine- were the perfect proof of FFF. The stern cabin has been dominant for centuries if not millenniae. It must have served it's purpose better than the forward cabin, otherwise it would have been weeded out long ago.

[bistros]

We had a discussion about 'Form Follows Function' and one guy said that that is no good with boats. I disagree, boats -at least until the advent of the engine- were the perfect proof of FFF. The stern cabin has been dominant for centuries if not millenniae. It must have served it's purpose better than the forward cabin, otherwise it would have been weeded out long ago.

Claus:

Different boats are built for different functions. Different functions have resulted in different forms. There is no comparison of a Junk hull to a modern race/cruiser, as the functional demands of each are very different.

There is nothing wrong with designing and appreciating stern cabins on small boats. Your obvious functional priorities are crew comfort, headroom and a unique look.

Other people may have upwind sailing speed and around-the-buoys performance as a functional priority. You would probably not like the boats they choose.

A junk-rigged, proportionately large stern cabin boat (especially at the modest size you are proposing) would be eye-catching and unique. Whether or not the eye-catching is a positive experience depends on who is looking.

The one thing you have to be careful about is making sure that satisfying one functional requirement does not affect other things too much. Your proposed boat designs may be very comfortable, but a mushy 25 year old plywood Opti crewed by an 11 year old will eat your lunch in the basic performance department. Part of a great weekend on the water is actually getting somewhere further than the breakwater, so you might want to be careful to consider performance for both speed and safety. I would not want to get caught out in a boat as you are discussing trying to claw to windward in an onshore breeze.

Every boat design is a collection of compromises, and for every high priority "good" choice you make be assured there will be a painful "bad" quality to balance it out.

Good luck in your boat selection process, and keep us informed.

--
Bill S in Ottawa

[gonzo]

Form may follow function, but you can't compare ancient boats that only went down wind with a modern cruiser. The dynamics of the boat behavior are different.

[sharpii2]

Claus:

Different boats are built for different functions. Different functions have resulted in different forms. There is no comparison of a Junk hull to a modern race/cruiser, as the functional demands of each are very different.

There is nothing wrong with designing and appreciating stern cabins on small boats. Your obvious functional priorities are crew comfort, headroom and a unique look.

Other people may have upwind sailing speed and around-the-buoys performance as a functional priority. You would probably not like the boats they choose.

A junk-rigged, proportionately large stern cabin boat (especially at the modest size you are proposing) would be eye-catching and unique. Whether or not the eye-catching is a positive experience depends on who is looking.

The one thing you have to be careful about is making sure that satisfying one functional requirement does not affect other things too much. Your proposed boat designs may be very comfortable, but a mushy 25 year old plywood Opti crewed by an 11 year old will eat your lunch in the basic performance department. Part of a great weekend on the water is actually getting somewhere further than the breakwater, so you might want to be careful to consider performance for both speed and safety. I would not want to get caught out in a boat as you are discussing trying to claw to windward in an onshore breeze.

Every boat design is a collection of compromises, and for every high priority "good" choice you make be assured there will be a painful "bad" quality to balance it out.

Good luck in your boat selection process, and keep us informed.

--
Bill S in Ottawa

Hi, Bill.

I'm sure the mushy 25 yo opti would make a good account of itself going to windward, compared to my proposal. After all, it has a much more efficient dagger board and it has 65% movable ballast (the 11 year old ), but so would a Hobie Cat (r) that can't point nearly as high.

I do agree the high cabin would compromise winward performance, but I don't think it would destroy it. It would get somewhere, especially on the shallow lake it would be designed for. It may even get there faster than some people think it will.

I think performance as the main goal has added a lot to sailing. But it has also taken a lot away. Performance usually means greater draft and much more vulnerable appendages. It also usually means taller, more complicated rigs that need more expensive hardware to make stand properly, as well as noodly masts which are almost impossible to step with out help, in some cases, and without a crane in others.

The Opti looks pretty much like the box it really is. But a lot of development has gone on, both inside and outside that box. And it was, after all, designed for racing.

[bistros]

Hi, Bill.

I'm sure the mushy 25 yo opti would make a good account of itself going to windward, compared to my proposal. After all, it has a much more efficient dagger board and it has 65% movable ballast (the 11 year old ), but so would a Hobie Cat (r) that can't point nearly as high.

I do agree the high cabin would compromise winward performance, but I don't think it would destroy it. It would get somewhere, especially on the shallow lake it would be designed for. It may even get there faster than some people think it will.

I think performance as the main goal has added a lot to sailing. But it has also taken a lot away. Performance usually means greater draft and much more vulnerable appendages. It also usually means taller, more complicated rigs that need more expensive hardware to make stand properly, as well as noodly masts which are almost impossible to step with out help, in some cases, and without a crane in others.

The Opti looks pretty much like the box it really is. But a lot of development has gone on, both inside and outside that box. And it was, after all, designed for racing.

We are pretty much on exactly the same page.

My post was an attempt to try to get the original poster to balance his desires with practical considerations. There are a bunch of mini-cruisers out there like the Chesapeake Light Craft Pocketship and the like that address this market segment.

Performance is a consideration that becomes important when things are going wrong, not when you are dreaming about anchoring out your lovingly assembled future boat at your desk while faking work. Lee shores, short chop, narrow channels etc. all are far from your mind.

I'm interested in his ideas because I too am looking at the small homebuilt cruising segment for future builds.

--
Bill

[Claus Riepe]

...My post was an attempt to try to get the original poster to balance his desires with practical considerations. ...
--
Bill

Thanks for that attempt, but no need really.

My desires are to put a removable hardtop cabin roof over the stern of an existing 20" super performing open daysailer to convert that boat into a temporary minimalist cruiser, if and when that boat is to be used as a weeksailer. My desires are driven by practical considerations right from the start.

My only concerns were the aesthetics of a stern structure, but this discussion here has quite allayed my concerns.

[Steve W]

There is a 26ft aft cabin sailboat sitting in my backyard that belongs to a friend .its a Parker dawson 26 which was also known as a Midship 25,it has a very usable aft cabin,nice comfortable center cockpit and decent fwd cabin,retractable cast iron centerboard and a little yanmar diesel,the rudder is a large daggerboard type transom mounted and it has a tandem axle trailer,they were available as a sloop or ketch.The designer ,Bob Finch who also designed the Islander 30 did an excellent job making it all work in such a small package.Im not savy enough to post a pic but you can google them,there is a good owners group.A guy raced one in the OSTAR back in the mid 70s and finished in a race where many didnt.
Steve.

[sharpii2]

We are pretty much on exactly the same page.

....
Performance is a consideration that becomes important when things are going wrong, not when you are dreaming about anchoring out your lovingly assembled future boat at your desk while faking work. Lee shores, short chop, narrow channels etc. all are far from your mind...
--
Bill

A very good point. One that has often been used with varying justice.

To get and stay off a lee shore, a boat has to be able to sail upwind reliably.

To sail up a narrow channel, a boat has to change tacks reliably.

If it can do those two things, it is adequate for the job.

I was once on a boat bought by some friends that did not have the best windward performance capability. And we all knew it.

It had a tiny centerboard and a mast without a back stay. The shrouds were so loose, due to their minimal back set and hull flexing, that the lee shroud hung loose in any kind of a wind.

We took the boat out and I talked them into sailing around a small island on the lake, just to show them that, with enough patience, they could go anywhere they wanted under sail with that boat.

The island had a narrow channel between it and the mainland. And that channel ended up being up wind with a fresh breeze blowing. It may have taken a dozen tacks to do it, but we got through that channel which was no more than two boat lengths wide.

For them, it may not have been the funnest experience. But for me, it was triumphant.

A better performing boat may not have made it. It's deeper board may well have fouled the weed choked bottom. Or it would have had to be retracted far enough to make it no more effective, or even less effective than the tiny board that boat had.

[rickinnocal]

Hi all. My newly purchased boat is a modification of an earlier design, specifically modified to add the stern cabin.

The original design was a Calkins 50' sloop, which is a canoe stern, aft cockpit motorsailor. For mine, the design was stretched by 4 feet, and the canoe stern changed to a transom. This, along with shortening the cockpit by 2', allowed for the addition of a stern cabin with a double bunk each side.

Here is the original 50' sloop....
http://i829.photobucket.com/albums/zz213/rickinnocal/calkins_50.jpg

And here is my "Glory B" on the hard...
http://i829.photobucket.com/albums/zz213/rickinnocal/Before%20work%20started/GloryBonhard.jpg

I think the lines look pretty good, not 'odd' at all.

Richard