Chine runners???

[clodgo]

Hi folks,

Does anyone have any thoughts about chine runners? can they be a replacement for a centerboard on a sailboat, or is that a myth?

Chris

[alaskamokaiman]

google Paradox sail boat.

[clodgo]

Thanks Alaska.
There's allot of stuff out there about the paradox, it's a pretty cool boat. I hadn't run across it before...

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

Clod - I am going to call you that because it is funny to me - you seem to be going down a path that I have just walked...

You may want to look at my Defiant - which really is my interpretation of Laydens Paradox - but with a few more curves...

See http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/7198/size/big/cat//ppuser/3673 ...

Matt Layden is a brilliant man - simplicity does have its place in this mad world still...

See http://home.triad.rr.com/lcruise/pictures.htm ...

If you go D/L the trial of Rhino 3D - I can post up my files for Defiant - or Email them to you...

See http://download.mcneel.com/eval/?p=25 ...

Also see http://peephens.org/gallery2/main.php ...

As for chine runners - I just cannot see it - as you heel and the runner digs in - it is a curve - like a snowboard I can only see it wanting to carve a curve - and throw the boat same - but some strange people swear by it - me I want to play with asymmetrical dual daggers or centreboards much like this boat I sailed on in Denmark - it would actually point upwind - I mean it would literally drag its ass upwind - rather than fall off - to any mark you put between yourself and a point on the boat - just fantastic...

I will post links and pics if I can dig it out of my heap…

Well - my ADS is kicking in...

I looked at your FlickR site - my wife loves your pencil work - sometimes I miss a dull pencil and some paper - good luck - if you need any help - just Email me...

SH.

[clodgo]

Thanks Sean,

The Defiant looks good, the link to the "Peep Hen" is allot like what I'm coming up with, I may have seen that one before.

I've almost got the model finished, I'll post some photos soon.

I was looking at your designs, the 5'x5' sailboat cracks me up. Here is a link to a funny youtube video, no it has nothing to do with boats...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWLG9feziRU

BTW, If you have any ideas about wind testing a model sailboat I'd love to hear them, maybe I'll start a thread. Thanks again,

Chris

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

I know the Farr guys do model testing at some place in Maryland - I think - cannot remember...

We have a flume tank somewhere here in Canada - probably East coast...

Not sure - more importantly - WHY - just build a good sized R/C model and go outside and have some intuitive fun...

I can just imagine getting into a wind tunnel with a bunch of engineers - that would be about as much fun as running a marathon with poo in my pants...:)

A tow tank would be cool though...

Have you ever watched Francis Ford Coppolas movie - WIND - if not - you should....

SH.

[ancient kayaker]

Resisting sideways force is a lot of what a sailboat is all about. I believe the argument for chine runners goes, if water has more trouble escaping under the hull it will offer more resistance. Sounds reasonable. Some designs have battens along the bottom of the rudder and/or keel for presumably the same reason.

Sideways force at the chine would have less overturning moment than force way down at the keel. However, there could be more drag.

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

I know this is going to get me into trouble with the usual fanatics and religious types - but that has never stopped me before...:)

Chine runners a just stupid...

There - I said it - sorry to be so 'chine runner politically incorrect'...

If I saw a chine runner coming at me - I would be inclined to stick my leg out and trip him up...:)

I hope that I have clearly expressed my opinions regarding chine runners - would you now like to know how I feel about ferro cement and Cross trimaran abortions built by LSD sucking teenage hippies...

Chichester was once being interrogated by some self righteous magazine writer who caught him out loading crates of gin into one of his boats (the boat also had a hand pump beer kegger) - he calmly passed this loser off with these words...

With a reverent pose - hand to heart - bless old man Chichester and his rotting hulk at the British Maritime Museum...

'Please do not take offence, but who the F'CK are you, why the hell are you even here, any fool can navigate the world sober, it takes a great sailor to do so while drunk, now F'CK OFF' and leave me alone, I have real work to do'...

Imagine that moment - I would have loved to be there helping the old man huck his gin onto the boat - but I probably would have died of heart attack from not being able to stop laughing...

NOT POLITICALLY CORRECT MOMENTS IN HISTORY PRESENTS...

Oh wait - I digressed again...:)

Clod - send me some drawings - when I sober up - I might do you up a Rhino preliminary - then we could interrogate the surface in Rhino Marine and get some numbers...

Numbers are good - numbers save lives - sometimes...:)

An engineering student can get his piece of paper on a GPA of poo...

An architect can get thru 4 to 5 years on a base of 65% - what could possibly go wrong when these people lie and jibber jabber their piss poor asses into the mainstream of the real world...

That is actually a compliment - your artwork makes me feel just sick - I know that any talent can be learned or faked with determination and practise - but you seem to have that non human – I hate to say - even (GOD) given gift...

Good stuff...

**** my glass is empty - got to go...:)

SH.

[safewalrus]

On form Sean! keep up the good work!!


the Walrus

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

AHAH - hello Walrus - nice weather - yup yup - busy trying to keep out of trouble although I know I will step in it soon...

I really hate putting my tail between my legs and doing those public apology things - PHHT...

Clod - I found this - my mind wonders and wanders - deal with it Princess...:)

I have to juggle so many F'in balls including my own sometimes - can you say VERONICA ZEMANOVA - I know you can...

So - AHHHHHH - where was I - oh yes - see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X8Ul8Lvx1M...

Trust me man - the average Engineer (note the Caps where I feel they are required) - (I Cap Anyone Who Has a Real Passion For What they do - rather than the slobs who cried their way through College or University levels on daddies money) - I digress again...:)

Hell - what a great name for a boat - I DIGRESS...:)

I am about to digress again...:)

(GOD) - I am so pathetic...

I have to go do some paying work - (but I don't want to) ...

Just bought DOOM 3 - got itchy fingers...

SH.

[clodgo]

I DIGRESS!!! Can I use that?

I am watching "20,000 leagues under the sea" and having a fancy American Budweiser.

Chine Runners frighten me...

Luckily I'm slightly unemployed and part Native American, French Canadian, and Italian. Maybe just the tiniest bit British from my Mums side of the family. Therefore I shall continue to do whatever the heck I want to and I appreciate everyones honest criticism.;]

Chris

[safewalrus]

go for it Clod! the only way to be!

[ancient kayaker]

Wow! Sean, only 19 minutes! Wish I could sober up that fast.

[safewalrus]

Doubt if he's really sober, second wind more like; mind you I could with some of that!!

[ancient kayaker]

The more I think about it the more I like "I Digress" as a boat name. If only I had some paying work to digress from ...

There should be a thread for great boat names. I think I just digressed from Chine Runners but doesn't everyone?

[safewalrus]

Is chine runners like road runners? fine as long as the Wily Coyote ain't about!!

[ancient kayaker]

The problem with genius is, the margin between it and insanity is sooo narrow ...

Which side are we on by now?

[clodgo]

Ok, I'd already made my decision about the road runners but I see that the thread is taking a turn of sorts. I'm leaving myself open to the possibility that they suck bat sh't, in which case I'll add a dagger board.

The margin between genius and insanity should take into consideration the employment variable. "The devil makes work for idle hands".

[PAR]

Chine runners can offer a substantial difference over some hull shapes with restricted lateral area, but it's a limited return at best. Aspect ratio is what appendages need, aside from a reasonable section and sufficient area in a respectable plan form.

In other words, a hull with limited lateral plane, especially fat or well burdened, flat bottom shapes, will seem to come alive with this type of improvement, but this is only because they truly sucked before. A properly sized set of appendages (rudder and dagger/center board) will make marked improvements over runners. On a hull where there is sufficient lateral area and having reasonably shaped appendages, their addition may actually detract from the performance a bit if the hull has good abilities or hardly be noticeable if the hull shows an average performance envelope.

[ancient kayaker]

Like everything else use of chine runners is a compromise to accommodate individual preferences and sailing conditions. A trailered boat intended for shallow tidal waters will not have a deep lead keel but a keel boat would be my choice for blue water. I myself use a Bruce foil to minimise heeling in a boat not intended for sailing which suffers from inadequate freeboard and stability.

It seems logical to use chine runners on a boat that desperately needs them, particularly a broad hull that would gain lateral rsistance as it heels. A center board might do the same thing but can be a nuisance inside a cruiser's cabin, and nobody loves leeboards except on a Thames barge.

We're getting a lot of opinions but maybe not from knowledgeable boat designers; are you guys out there and reading this thread? (Apologies to anyone on this thread who meets that criterion). Anyone got actual numbers on the effect of chine runners on leeeway and drag? Do they offer any advantage (not just in the performance) over bilge keels?

[clodgo]

If the sides of the hull and the rocker are the same section of a circle the runners form a straight blade the full length of the hull under the waterline. You just have to angle them properly from the tip of the blade to the side of the hull, otherwise they are curves which cause drag and all that bad stuff. Also it seems to me that the force of water on the heeling runner might make it difficult for it to come up above the water.

It's hard to get a good photo but you can kind of see it in the attachment.

[safewalrus]

and nobody loves leeboards except on a Thames barge.



and the odd [thousands of] Dutchman!

[ancient kayaker]

[QUOTE=clodgo;189456]If the sides of the hull and the rocker are the same section of a circle the runners form a straight blade the full length of the hull under the waterline. You just have to angle them properly from the tip of the blade to the side of the hull, otherwise they are curves which cause drag and all that bad stuff.

That makes sense; if the bottom curve is the same as the side curve a side effect would be extra cabin depth midships, like some Bolger designs. Chine runners seem to be a variant of bilge keels but those would impose less severe hull design contraints.

I've read about battens on the bottom edge of a rudder giving it more bite; seems like chine runners would have the same effect, has anyone done any calculations or experiments?

Speaking of leeboards, I've used them but I made sure nobody was looking ...

[PAR]

A chine runner is an end plate folks. It slows "cross over" flow.

The comment about rocker and hull sides is a Bolger comment, though I don't remember where (probably one of his books) and he was referring to eddy making resistance at the chine of flat bottom boats. By making the hull sides and bottom of similar curves, the pressure waves are similar, thus less turbulent at the chine.

The runner would act much like the beavertail seen on bulb keels, in regard to what it does to flow. A curved runner would have a small envelope of effectiveness, but if the hull was held at that particular angle, she'd perform some work, though, again not a substitute for proper appendages.

[kengrome]

If the sides of the hull and the rocker are the same section of a circle the runners form a straight blade the full length of the hull under the waterline.

From what I've read, chine runners are only supposed to be 1/3 the length of the hull, and positioned in the middle of the hull. In other words, they do not extend anywhere near the ends of the hull.

They are basically lateral extensions of a flat bottom, but only in the middle 1/3 of the hull.

[clodgo]

I have been influenced by Bolgers designs mostly because they are simple and provide allot of storage for a small boat. I haven't read anything by him that explains in detail, how chine runners work. If I accidentally quoted him w/out giving him credit I am truly sorry but I don't think he's the only person who has made the side and rocker of the same section of a circle. it's just logical.

As for the 1/3 length runners that Kengrome refers to, I have also seen them here and there and considered trying them.

Here is a link to Bolger's "afloat on seas of peas" which discusses in detail his ideas concerning the relationship between the side, the rocker and resistance and all that stuff. http://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/1sep04.htm

I will look into bilge keels, Thanks for all the comments folks,

Chris

[kengrome]

I have been influenced by Bolgers designs mostly because they are simple and provide allot of storage for a small boat. I haven't read anything by him that explains in detail, how chine runners work.I think Matt Layden is the pioneer in the use of chine runners in his shallow draft cruisers, isn't he? He's the one I got the 1/3 length measurement from -- not directly, but via his or someone else's website where a boat with chine runners was being built according to Matt's specs.

[clodgo]

I think the chine runners are evolving into full LWL shallow twin keels. any thoughts folks?:confused:

[safewalrus]

Still think a 'chine runner' is the Chinese version of the Road Runner - Bleep Bleep!!

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

See http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/article_twinkeels.html ...

Also http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.johnsboatstuff.com/images/twin_keel-1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.johnsboatstuff.com/Boat%2520Designs/Grenada%252024/twinkeel.htm&h=236&w=366&sz=40&hl=en&start=5&tbnid=hmObor7L4F5CVM:&tbnh=79&tbnw=122&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwater%2Bballast%2Btwin%2Bkeels%26as_st%3Dy%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG ...

Ahah - these are the UK boats I spoke of earlier - see http://www.selectyachts.co.uk/redfoxhome.asp - these have assymetrical daggers...

All said though - I would go with PAR - proper appendages are not really all that hard to build - and a centerboard - even offset into a berth front allows you to change your CLR a bit - I used to sail my Holt Enterprise with just the main in a blow and trimmed the boat with the position of the board...

There are some photos in my gallery of twin keelers in Looes and in Calais - North Americans tend too poo poo the things - but they can be very useful...

I still want to play with assymetrical fixed keels canted outboard to 15 degrees - one hangs vertical pulling to windward while the flying one is trying to right the boat...

Anyway - there is a lot of info out there - mostly European...

SH.

[safewalrus]

Ah the light comes on - !ting!

So that's what your talking about! Bloody Septic speak!!

Good sensible things for small boat estury and beach work, I like them, in their place!!

[clodgo]

!!TING!! Drawings will be up soon, the flat bottom is going away (I never liked it anyway) and the chine runners have become twin keels. I'm still working out the angle and length.

Tomorrow I'll move all the empties, bills, pizza, and stuff off the drawings/drawing table and try to figure it out.

Thanks for the comments!

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

See http://www.twin-keeler.org/ - scroll to boat list at bottom...

The PDF's are fantastic...

SH.

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

Should be in my profile...

Or try herrons01@shaw.ca...

SH.

[ancient kayaker]

Phil Bolgers dreamboat reminds me of how I got going on boat design by contemplating the bottom 25% of a Zepelin. All the plank developments were identical but I suspected it would only make a good boat if I added the other 75%, weighed it down some and called it a submarine, but yah gotta start someplace ...

Chine runners seem to want to morph into bilge keels or is it vice versa?

Interesting claim about twin keels giving added directional stability; I have a rotomolded kayak with a pair of narrow parallel grooves in the bottom. It is rather short and at take off it yaws from side to side but when I get it going it tracks well, the yawing reduces by more than 50%. I have long wondered why, and suspected the water gets trapped in a spiral inside the grooves and adds effective mass, but maybe its an edge effect.

[ancient kayaker]

With the current discussion veering towards bilge keels, here is an interesting snipet. The July 1995 issue of the Boatman, a UK mag, has an interesting account of the P'tit Bonheur, a French boat based on the British barge yacht, which was in turn inspired by the sailing barges of the UK East Coast. She has the usual pair of leeboards found on a sailing barge, but carried internally so they can be retracted into the hull. These enter the hull above the unheeled waterline so when raised there is no turbulence drag. the weather board would easily clear the bow wave as she heels as she is beamy. They are spaced about 75% of the total beam apart so they do not interfere with internal space apart from cutting down a little on cupboard space. She even has twin rudders.

At 23 feet she is rather small by barge yacht standards. She is reported to have excellent performance. I can find no reference to her on the net and few references to barge yachts. they seem to be a dying breed, although another BY, the Waterwitch, is for sale. I can't say as I've heard of this concept before but it sounds like the sort of thing that Phil Bolger would come up with.

[safewalrus]

New to me! sounds a bit pointless as the whole idea of the leeboard was to give room inside the vessel (OK initially it was designed to prevent leeway) I can't see how two off center centerboards (??) could do this? in Fact it would take up more room!! Still as you say it's the sort of thing Phil Bolger would come up with, and if did you darn well it'll work - sailing aspect anyway!! Not sure about the room tho', still I guess on a 23 footer your hardly going to be carrying large cargoes are you?

[ancient kayaker]

As you can see in the sketch, based on what I recall, the leeboards retracted clear of the floor boards behind seat backs leaving the cabin clear of obstruction. They were slanted similar to bilgeboards; I understand the concept as implemented in the original barges predates the development of bilgeboards although I have difficulty believing that. All in all it seemed a rather bright idea to me and ideal for a lightweight trailer boat.

[safewalrus]

very pretty and swish but what if?.......

Seems it's a case of never use two words when ten will do!! KISS principal applies ALL the time at sea, especially on small boats -salt, sea, and humidity most always spell disaster to enclosed things - chuck in a bit of mud and your in deep 5h1t!! Naw a nice plank on the side is easier, cheaper and safer, Looks the part to if done properly!!

[clodgo]

Hmmm, This is the direction I'm going. The "plate" along the top of the runner is clearly visible and well below the waterline. When the boat heels it becomes a full length "keel"... I think...

[safewalrus]

Looks er, interesting, but hell it better be strong (and I mean stronger than it should be) can see problems arising there else!!

Could be fun to try! be a place to rest your leeboard mind!!;)

[clodgo]

HA! Thought about the leeboard kinda resting nicelly on the runners...:P

What other Problems, do tell safetywalrus.

BTW the chine runners extend into the hull to contain water ballast. A friend of mine says that I need at least 1400 pounds of ballast, it's a frikin 10' boat, that seems excessive. I was thinking 3 or 4 hundred. 1400 would fill the entire cabin!:rolleyes:

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

Imagine the fun you could have if you knew a guy named Jack Alert...

Well - the Whiskey is running dry - and because Jesus rose from the dead - I cannot get more until tommorow...

Here are my quick ideas for a heavy 10 footer - was great fun - I was laughing at the quick renders...

A 7 foot berth can tuck under the cockpit seats - and extend forward for that guy squating inside - heaps of room...:)

So I am calling it - wait - THE PUG 10...:)

Before I get completely pied - I know I have a DWG of Laydens Paradox somewhere - with the runners...

SH.

[clodgo]

I kind of like the renderings, got those funny stick people in them again:D

The feller in the cockpit looks like he's holding a can of beer.

WARNING! DESIGN CONTENT; I took a 16 foot double ender with 1' of curve over the length at rocker and sides. Then I cut off the aft third, and 1/4 off the bow. Then added a little point in front and put a cap on it to make it look like an el camino.

Pug 10 is cool,

Chris

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

Clod - you know you want Rhino...

3.0 runs on low end - low memory machines...

That Camino is only good for Mexican whores - proper British brunettes - and other - would pay off the date - with a proper English excuse as soon as they knew it was yours...

Perhaps a chopped and lowered Austin Martin on alloys - or an old red Jag rag - per inspector (Morris) - or whats his name - Walrus would know...

I married British - THANK GOD - pasty skin and all - THANK GOD...:)

I can still mail all the bits on a CD...

That said - I would take the Camino with a 350 or go Olds 454 - and hammer the firewall...

Got a line on a running IH for 4 grand...

As things went - that 'feller' in the cockpit should be swilling CC - (Canadian Club) - but those times have fallen away...

Pug 10 centers - they remain - perhaps tomorrow...

Christ I wish I was in Looes Harbour just now - seems so far away...

Burp...

SH.


SH.

[clodgo]

BUY THE TRUCK!!!!!! It's beautiful!

This is my old car, RIP. 74 Chevy Malibu w/350 V8. I always wanted the el camino but had to settled for the 4 door:rolleyes:

There's not enough gas left to drive something like that so it's on to sailboats:D

[safewalrus]

Sean you wouldn't want to be in Looe harbour at the moment the tides out and theres a nasty lazy Northerly wind blowing, its damn cold mate!

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

You are wrong friend - I would love to stand on the cliffs and watch the teeth of it...

Funny how a particular place makes you feel something - what was his mad ass name - easy - Patton - he believed in a lot of strange things...

When I was in Looes - I did not want to leave - it was not the chips...:)

There was something real - the coastal fortifications - my wifes family - I felt the pain of my Grandmothers second husband - Charlie - and why he never talked of Dieppe - another story of course...

Hell - you all built your houses from foundered ships steering to your beach fires...:)

I hope you are well - cheers...:)

SH.

[safewalrus]

The term mate is Looe (Cornish for Pig, but us don't mention that animal around boats, tis bad luck see) the place may cosist of East Looe and West Looe (either side of the river) But the town is called Looe! Confused, you will be!!

[Sean Herron]

Hello

Looe - grand - I have you and my wife and my stepfather all setting me on the narrow - sorry forr being so colonial...:)

I remember a grand raised pond - fantastic for models or cable tow tests...

SH.

[safewalrus]

Bugger that, couple of nice bars - priorities Sean, priorities!!

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

Cornish for PUG - the dog...

What is that...

Cheers...

SH.

[safewalrus]

Damned if I do either!

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

I need to go sniper in Battlefield 1942...

Cheers - good night...

SH.

[safewalrus]

Night Sean!!