What Do We Think About Climate Change

[the1much]

Can you pick the odd one out?

number 9 looks a little "shifty" hehe ;)

[masalai]

What about #6 - long tongue?

[the1much]

climate change,,,and us trying to not make it worse,,hahahaha,,,,we cant worry bout little sh!t like that,,,,we have REAL issues to deal with!!,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
EASTON, Md. - For only the third time in five years, Easton police have ticketed someone for going topless in public. Sean Cephus, 18, was cited June 4 when police say he was spotted without a shirt on South Street near Hanson Street. He was also cited for failing to obey a lawful order to stop for police.

A town ordinance adopted in 1974 forbids anyone from going topless in public buildings or on public streets and sidewalks. Possible penalties are a fine of up to $100 and up to 10 days in jail.

Easton Police Lt. Gregory Wright said people without shirts are considered a public nuisance. He said three citations have been issued since 2003.

[TollyWally]

Wow,
Is that little speck of the East Coast really part of the same nation I live in?
What ever happened to the land of the free and the home of the brave?

What a pathetic, worthless, unamerican, did I mention worthless, town Easton Md. is.

[Meanz Beanz]

Meh, make it worse, make it better... we can do neither. We should be more worried about our direct environment. You know, less cars because the air is shitty to breath, less rubbish because its just plain shitty, more trees because they can make the shittiest place look and feel good, clean rivers because frogs are fun.... :D You know, take pride... not because some rabid green radical is bashing you over the head. The thing to understand about green peace is, its now an entity that will seek to prolong and justify its existence. It will always go on finding more and more issues to pursue, even if we check them all off they will always go further. A bit like the DEA in the US or the AMA in Australia.... self serving in the end all the while proclaiming selflessness... bureaucracy in all its forms, ain't it great? Its all for your own good....

Anyway, I'm off to do a spot of devil worshipping....

[the1much]

and even if greenwacks,,i mean peace, does die,,,another will take its place,,,but maybe the next 1 wont be as funny to watch as greenies,,,hehe ;):)

[masalai]

Be more to the point if your green hippy mates started planting trees - u no - actions speak loudest?

Stop all this huggin them - they will "love them to death", just go out and plant trees.... EVREWHERE - even in the middle of a road if you can get away with it? I like the Australian Jarrah, the honey is nice, and the wood burns leaving very little ash, and gives plenty of heat.... and it is tough so you need tungsten tips on the teeth of your chainsaw, cut it green for when it has dried is as hard as steel.... needs watering for the first year, thereafter can suck water out of the oil basins....

[the1much]

the thing bout planting trees here is,,,after you plant them,,,you need to weed em for bout 5 years till they get bigger then the blackberry and rasberry bush's,,,,if not,,,they die in under a year.( i have a tree farm in maine,,,grow x-mas trees) man what a tax break on property tax i get for it,,hehe ;)

[masalai]

the1, get some goats, they can be trained to eat anything and with one of those "companion dogs" in the flock they will be looked after and protected.... Just need bloody good fences....

[the1much]

cant do goats down here,,,,damned mexicans eat em as fast as you could buy em :(

[masalai]

That is why that bloody dog - they are about as big as a goat & become VERY protective, and are easy to train to chase certain people (strangers), and make a lot of noise, and even bring them back to the yards at nite.... Waimaranas I think???? look a bit like a cross between "Lassie" and a "great dane" thingie except they do not carry a mini cask of rum for the frozen mountaineer..... Then you may get a chance at some target practice.....:D:D:D:D

[the1much]

is that them dogs that look something like a greyhound and a collie,,,,but with the short greyhound hair.,,,,i used to have a timber wolf and english wolfhound mix,,,,,what a massive bit of dog,,hehe ;) ,,,here in texas all these gang banger wanna be's have crap loads of pitbulls,,,,but they like every dog,,,,they act like they've been treated.

[the1much]

ohhhh,,,,and the news jus said it was raining,,,,,,,,,,,25 miles away and moving away at 35mph,,,,,,is the story of my life,,hehe ;)

[masalai]

Teach the dog to bring em home at nite and the warning bark will give you time to "cock betsy" and let fly with a bit more than salt-peter - - - :D:D:D:P

[Meanz Beanz]

Sounds like dem Donkeys they are using to look after the sheep!

[masalai]

Em tasol (translation) that is all.... :D:D

[the1much]

ill have my cock teach the dog,,,ummmm,,,hmmm,,,another "not sounding right" sentence,,hehe,,,that dam bird lets me know when someone looks towards my house,,,,and even funnier,,,,people are more scared of him then they would be of a dog,,hehe ;)

[masalai]

In png a while back I had 2 guard dogs one we called "stupid", and the other "dumber" - one would bark and kick up an awful fuss barking VERY loud, but wagging tail in happiness, the other dog was "shy"? and would cower in the background, till someone went to pet stupid, then dumber would burst forth and BITE in the groin - what a dumb place to bite and the stupidity of the person to try to pet the "guard dog" he he he

[the1much]

hahaha,,,,do they have any offspring available?,,hehe ;)

[masalai]

I trained them according to their "personalities" - - Not all that difficult to do, be consistent, and don't "fool around" as it confuses the status of a working dog.... I use rewards and no "punishment" and when "off duty" are on the chain, and when working free to roam in the yard which is secured to keep the dogs in.... The "chain is attached to a long high tensile wire about 8 ft high so the dog has a long run with water and kennel (on the back verandah), at one end and nothing to get tangled around at the other - the chain is a standard light dogchain of double length (16-18 ft)....

Remember a dog is a pack animal and NEEDS to know its "social position" which HAS to be below all your kids, else jealousy problems may arise as you will be the "Alpha dog in the pack"... therefore never "restle" with a dog as a pet....

[the1much]

when i got my wolf he was a pup,,,things went fine till he was bout 9months old,,,,then he wouldnt listen,,would growl at people,,,,,so i talked to the old vet we had,,,,and he said,,,,beat the @sshole,,,,i was like,,,thats stupid,,,,he said,,, well, do that or he's gonna eat ya in a few months,,,,so the next time he growled,,,,,me and him had it out for bout 20 minutes,,,,he was bleeding,,,i was bleeding,,,and when we were done,,,,i crawled over to him,,,and drove my head on top of his,,and held him there till i got tired of it,,,,,,,,,,that was the BEST dog i have ever had,,,,the only problem was when people brought in a baby,,,and lay it down on the floor,,,,i was the only person that could pick the baby up from the floor,,,,,,and that dog only growled at 1 guy,,,and i told the idiot,,,sorry man,,,my dog dont want ya in the house,,,,and this is HIS house,,,,,sorry to say i never saw that dude again HA,,hehe ;)

[masalai]

And so, back to topic, I feel "Climate Change" is vastly over-rated, as it changes by the hour - sometimes in periods briefer than a minute, or second even... So what is new? its hot, its cold, its wet, its dry, its windy, its calm, its sunny, its overcast, and sometimes the rain is solid and sometimes it is foggy. It comes in any compination and intensity.....:D:D:D

Now to post some calming thoughts about other metrological/climate threads....

[Frosty]

Did you hear about NAASA recently admitting that it knowingly decieved the public by issuing false information about global warming between 2004 and 2006 because of political pressure on them at an election time?

People like that should'nt tell lies. They say it wont happen again Quote "they have cleaned thier act up"

Some one should be castrated for that.

[Pericles]

Brian,

When conditions change by the hour, we Brits call that "weather".:D :D :D
Greenpeace are about to be hauled up by the short and curlies according to a report I saw yesterday.

A group of real estate developers and property owners in La Manga del Mar Menor - a spit of sandy, low-lying coastal land and Murcia’s premier beach resort - are threatening to take Greenpeace to court over its graphic predictions of what global warming may do to the area, which they say have caused house prices to plummet. The lawsuit, which the plaintiffs plan to present unless Greenpeace agrees to an out of court settlement of almost EUR 30 million in damages, comes more than six months after La Manga featured prominently in a photo book published by the environmental organisation that was intended to shock Spain into action on climate change.
...

http://www.expatica.com/es/articles/news/Estate-owners-sue-Greenpeace-for-alarming-prediction.html

Icecap note: Let’s hope this is the first of many suits against alarmists and irresponsible environmental groups. The La Manga group has a case. Note that sea levels are not accelerating up but appear to be falling in part due to ocean cooling and compression and perhaps part due to record extent of Antarctic ice. Certainly there is no signs of an alarming increase threatening coastal areas as Gore and Hansen have prophesised. http://www.icecap.us/

Attachment. Sea level changes since 1994 from TOPEX and Jason satellites.

[the1much]

jus wait til obama gets in,,,,,even though he looks like he's black,,,,he's all GREEN,,,,,ask gore,,,their buddies,,,hehe ;) ,,,oh ya,,,obombma also says global warming will be 1 of the first issue he deals with,,,says theres gonna be more and larger restrictions on co2 emissions,,,,,,,,,hehe,,,hmmmm,,,wonder why he waited till now to say anything bout it,,hehe ;)

[Guillermo]

"A group of real estate developers and property owners in La Manga del Mar Menor - a spit of sandy, low-lying coastal land and Murcia’s premier beach resort - are threatening to take Greenpeace to court over its graphic predictions of what global warming may do to the area, which they say have caused house prices to plummet.
I would have sued them too, if I were a real estate developer. Even sued the Spanish Government.

For the kind of damage already done, see:
http://www.foreignpropertybuyer.com/2008/news-comment/spanish-coastal-properties-vulnerable-to-rising-sea-levels/

On our childish and self-wounding government behaviour see:
http://www.expatica.com/es/articles/news/rising-sea-levels-threaten-spains-coastline-45650.html

Having said this, I have to say I don't like the kind of massive touristic real estate development which has grown in our coasts, mainly in the Med. Neither do I like any of the massive touristic resorts I know abroad.

Cheers.

[masalai]

So if Greenpeace was right can they sue back for false accusations or something? - I DID SAY "IF" . . . . .:D

[tinhorn]

http://www.foreignpropertybuyer.com/2008/news-comment/spanish-coastal-properties-vulnerable-to-rising-sea-levels/

Man, I gotta spread this news in New England. I want to buy a house there - something small, on the water - in 2009 or 2010. Y'know, after the Alt-A meltdown REALLY trashes the market.

[the1much]

hahahhahaa,,,,,,hope your wallet is thick,,hehe ;)

[the1much]

i got 10 acres on 1 of the cleanest rated pond in maine valued round 350 thous,,,got 7 acres on the ocean,,,,i wont even mention what thats worth,,,got a 20 acre parcel just in the woods,, got to hike in,,,that valued at 85 thous.,,,and the taxes in maine will kill ya!

[dragonjbynight]

Well, I for one might just agree with the global warming trend. Its been awhile since my last post, been out and about surveying damage. Our lake is up 40+ feet, and is being held at its topmost peak without taking out the bridge for fear of letting water into the streams and rivers that can't hold any more water...for those south of us, specially along the mississippi, best of luck to ya. Needless to say, since its been raining more than sunny, my boat is still "drying out" as my tarp has been quite well shredded by the wind. Anyway, hopefully, things will return to some semblance of normalcy for those who were completely flooded out of house and home. Guess well see....

trying to add some pics, but its going a bit slow, so subseqent posts might be necessary

[tinhorn]

hahahhahaa,,,,,,hope your wallet is thick,,hehe ;)

I'll be buying in Mass. Prices are dropping like a rock, man, and predicted to get worse. And that isn't even factoring in the Alt-A meltdown, which nobody mentions and financial people only say, "Mmmm, yeahhhh." Look up Mr Mortgage on youtube.

The sweet thing is I have a couple of small properties on the market in a region that's attracting retirees like flies. Developments going up all around the town, and new commercial construction, too. Doesn't hurt that my burg was recently featured in the New York Times, and awhile ago as one of the best places to retire by Money magazine. So I figure I sell mine while they're still hot (okay, maybe just still warm), wait a year or two for the MA market to continue its death spiral, and SOMEbody is gonna dump a small place with a pond in the back yard. (I figure with almost 3200 lakes and ponds, not to mention all that shoreline, I'm about 20 times more likely to find my ideal home in MA than if I was looking for another place here at home.)

Pedal boats, here I come!

[masalai]

Don't get too excited tin, the prices will tumble even further, and hopefully your gold and silver will show more than a bright lining... :D:D:D

[the1much]

not puttin Mass. down,,,,,,but have you ever seen the shoreline there?,,,,remember that pic i think pericles posted with all the trash on shore,,,,thats how it is mostly on the mass shore,,,,,the water is yucky brown,,,,,its almost as bad as new york :(

[tinhorn]

Yup, sounds like late 2009 and 2010 are when Alt-As are going to start resetting. I've got high hopes for my Krugerrand and silver dollar in the meantime.

Hey, check this out: http://kcast.kitco.com/ . It puts a little gold price ticker on your screen, down by your clock!

You're from Maine, 1, you're required to put Massachusetts down, aren't you? Not that I'd argue much - most MA natives are pretty uncivil and pompous. Worst drivers I've ever seen. I've only been to Maine when it was cold and rainy. Great antique stores there for a casual book collector such as myself.

I like the MA beaches I've been to. I'm gonna look for a pond, though. I want to walk out the back door, hop in my pedal boat, and terrorize the ducks. Kinda like I do now with my bike, just wetter.

[safewalrus]

The way this flooding is going I'm looking at Mt Sinai myself, Oh yes and building a wee wooden barge -anybody know how to clean up several loads of **** each day or do I just chuck it overboard -it could end up being colonised by the arabs!

[the1much]

The way this flooding is going I'm looking at Mt Sinai myself, Oh yes and building a wee wooden barge -anybody know how to clean up several loads of **** each day or do I just chuck it overboard -it could end up being colonised by the arabs!

invest in dung beetles,,hehe ;)

not required Tin.,,but it is expected,,hehe,,,in fact ,,any place from 100miles inside our 2 borders and beyond are "crap" areas,,hehe ;) and free fer the pickin :D

[Pericles]

Here's another good opener for the day. "IPCC Scientist calls Global Warming Fears the Worst scientific scandal in history."

More, much, much more, to read here.

http://www.rightsidenews.com/200806171208/global-warming/ipcc-scientist-calls-global-warming-fears-the-worst-scientific-scandal-in-history.html

In the US Senate of all places. "Over 400 prominent scientists from more than two dozen countries recently voiced significant objections to major aspects of the so-called "consensus" on man-made global warming. These scientists, many of whom are current and former participants in the UN IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change), criticized the climate claims made by the UN IPCC and former Vice President Al Gore."

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.SenateReport

Global Warming as Religion and not Science

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.
Blaise Pascal

It was Michael Crichton who first prominently identified environmentalism as a religion. That was in a speech in 2003, but the world has moved on apace since then and adherents of the creed now have a firm grip on the world at large.

Continue at http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/religion.htm

I hope that by the end of 2009, (or earlier, if possible) Al Goreb & his lackeys, cronies and adherents will be subject to the full weight of US law, for willfully & dishonestly misleading the people for their own greedy financial gain.

Perry

[Guillermo]

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.
Blaise Pascal
"Human beings never do good so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
Guillermo

Cheers :)

[Pericles]

:D :D :D :D :D :D

Guillermo,

Nobody expects the Auto da Fe. You have to like Monty Python, otherwise understanding the Spanish Inquisition sketch becomes fraught with difficulty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gldlyTjXk9A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSe38dzJYkY

http://people.csail.mit.edu/paulfitz/spanish/t2.html

Best wishes,

Perry

[masalai]

"Human beings never do good so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
Guillermo

EDIT for truth in all cases? - - Human beings never do good and/or evil, so completely and effectively, as when they do it from religious conviction.

[Guillermo]

That's the point, Brian. :)

Perry,
Should we re-read the Dialogue of Comfort against Tribulation this sunday? ;)

Cheers.

[masalai]

I give it to you with much pleasure, do enjoy your new-found fame ? :D - - - As if you weren't already famous in my eyes...

[Knut Sand]

Oopps, I was away a few days, didn't check up on this thread, until now... As you may have noticed I tend to take off when anybody mention climate ( areal partykiller...:rolleyes: ).

Now I see Guillermo hav given a history lesson.... I realize that we Scandinavians lost momentum the instant we were christianed.... Hmmm... Better not follow that one up.....:confused:

Also I see Pericles, ehhh stubborn as always coming here with more facts and information.;)

Also I see now that there's a discussion if this issue is a religion or not.

Maybe the best way to achieve something, IS to make it into religion.....:D

(I always get a little high, when pushing "mesh and run" on the computer, and it's not showing any sign of getting unstable...)

[Knut Sand]

That's the point, Brian. :)
Dialogue of Comfort against Tribulation


Guillermo...
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17075/17075-8.txt

That's serious heavy english in there, methinketh....

Arguments, arguments...;)


(f** still "creating mesh" did i put on toooo small...?)

[masalai]

Hi Knut, good to see the European? side coming "on shift" , on climate??? we just had a thunder storm that couldn't get it up... a couple of distant rumblings (indigestion) a brief piss then dissapation - as my wife would say "disputang" which means "something like a fart - with absolutely no substance to it..." I think the Indian members may know the usage...

What is this "creating mesh" is that something like a "new age ****" ???

[the1much]

hehe,,,,thats why i came to texas,,,,i am like a god here,,ha,,hehe ;)

[Knut Sand]

Hi Masalai

Well here it's mostly rain, summer's gone it seem...... Temp in the sea and air is about 13-15 °C (°C x 1,8 + 32 = °F ...., for you outside sivilized areas :p ).
It''s not really hot you can say.... A couple of nights ago, we had thunder, didn,t seem to stop, and rain, didn't seem to stop either....

I got to get that fabric roof on the boat fixed...:rolleyes:

[Knut Sand]

hmmm....mesh...Hmmm, that's not even Norwegian.... It's in the garage you guys should keep the calendars with them girls, in the garage you can have these "outdated" calendars.... Ok, we have year; 2008, month; june, we have Presenile Computas.....

To calculate strength in a design, we add a fishnet (meshing), the next program calculate the stress along these lines. Look at it as a fork, push it with let's say 20 lb's on the table, forks down (like summercamp, when sombody snatched the last hamburger in front of your plate), ok, the handle have 20 lb compression, internally, each of the forks, have this same load divided on the no. of forks. (so for 4 forks it will be a compression strength on each equal to 5 lb), that if if you hit straight, and not the hand of the bloke... :D

But if you lay the masks tooo small, the time for the PC to calculate this....... Ok , but back in 84, this was beyond my wildest dream.....

[Frosty]

I just watched Matrix 2 video disc,---now I know I might not be very bright but I am totally confused as to WTF is it about. I thought I would ask on the boat forum especially as 'The1 much' looks like the bloke what drove the train?

I have never asked anyone from Texas a question before and I am fully aware that the answer may not be in the slightest similar or representative of the true answer.

I am also slightly annoyed,--not because I have to ask a Texan (from Maine) to answer a question but because I have hurt my big toe nail,---a lot, and it hurts a lot ,--Oh I said that already.

Well it does, and its going a greeny colour and I have thorn lacerations about my thighs and calf muscles from running through bloody jungle to get to beer and women.

As I said Im not very bright.

EDIT Oh **** sorry I thought it was drivel thingy.

[Knut Sand]

and I have thorn lacerations about my thighs and calf muscles from running through bloody jungle to get to beer and women.




Then my friend; thou shall not run...

Get a nice looking vallet, a fishing line, a Premium Cold Card (no need to be in working order), place yourself at a bar (that has to be in working order).

Place the bait....

:idea:

[Frosty]

Thouest knowest littlest aboutest Thailandest thoust dear friend.

A credistus card is of small respectus of the molestus virginus.

Palms of silver is thy best Errr negotianinginest toolums

[Knut Sand]

Ok, to get this thread back on track before anybody starts to hunt me down;

I saw a documentary about a Danis bloke (oh, then there's at least two down there..):

Henrik Svensmark.
He claimed the following; Global warming is not caused by humans burning fossile fuel (****, Pericles will smell that one...). He claimed that solar activity were causing cosmic rays, that causes, build up of lower clouds that again results in global warming. He had graphs, showing solar spots/ activity compared to temperatures.

He was pretty convincing, and probably on to something, but then again, trying to find the theory on the net... I ended up on "Buy this book thing", maybe he's into this for the money.... Or maybe I'm just too cynical....

Ok, I have said earlier, I believe we're put on Global warming whether we like it or not... What I thing we can reduce, is the added temperature that we can inflict on, by changing our way of thinking..... ;)

[Frosty]

Ok, to get this thread back on track before anybody starts to hunt me down;

I saw a documentary about a Danis bloke (oh, then there's at least two down there..):

Henrik Svensmark.
He claimed the following; Global warming is not caused by humans burning fossile fuel (****, Pericles will smell that one...). He claimed that solar activity were causing cosmic rays, that causes, build up of lower clouds that again results in global warming. He had graphs, showing solar spots/ activity compared to temperatures.

He was pretty convincing, and probably on to something, but then again, trying to find the theory on the net... I ended up on "Buy this book thing", maybe he's into this for the money.... Or maybe I'm just too cynical....

Ok, I have said earlier, I believe we're put on Global warming whether we like it or not... What I thing we can reduce, is the added temperature that we can inflict on, by changing our way of thinking..... ;)


Im with yer buddy,-- Ok Im ready--- what do you want me to do first?

[Knut Sand]

Thouest knowest littlest aboutest Thailandest thoust dear friend.

A credistus card is of small respectus of the molestus virginus.

Palms of silver is thy best Errr negotianinginest toolums


What?? I thought I had made plenty room for ehhh, "looks" or the lack of....

I was in Singapore once, that's not too far off from Thailand, is it? Which should mean the female population is something similar... The only time in my life that I have been treated as a sexual object, even with my looks... ;) Which again should prove that a man starting up selling glasses down there could make a fortune....

[Frosty]

Singapore is like Thailand????????? Oh Oh Oh ho hah ha ha ha ha.

Oh geeez give me a minute,----- Oh geeezus.

Ohh boy whoooooooo Ok Singapore is similar to Thailand in Errrrrrr

Let me see how can I put this Oh I cant ha ha,
oh temperature maybe!!

[Knut Sand]

what do you want me to do first?


Wow, a believer!
Ok.

We should:

Walk/ bike, if we can, reduce the milage use of cars. Try to travel more than one person in one car, reduce flights, use net meeting, if you can, to avoid travel.. eat local food, drink local beer, more grass, more fish, less meat, build displasement boats, sail boats, smaller cars, smaller, better engines, save electricity, waste less.... (Christ; it was in the news today.... Norway throw 2 000 000 tons of garbage each year! that equals almost 500 kg/ each!!! AND IT IS PRODUCED GARBAGE, i mean, there have been a production process involved there...).

[Knut Sand]

Singapore is like Thailand??????

Hmm, there's no smiley with red rears...:p

[Frosty]

Wow, a believer!
Ok.

We should:

Walk/ bike, if we can, ).

I just told you I was ripped up by thorns running, and you said "thou shalt not run".

I use a bike all the time, I have a deisel pick up which rarely comes out, only if I need heavy stuff from the super market other wise I cant get through traffic. ( this isnt Singapore you know) I use a mountain bike or a small motor bike or a big one.

Here,-- I found a red faced smiley for you :o

[the1much]

o.k. frosty...i'll try,,,but it complicated fer us texans transplants,,hehe,,,its about the matrix,,,,,see i am pretty smart hehe ;)
but someone told me it was about these people living in a computer program,,,,and the "star" and his helpers are a :anomaly" in the mathmatics,,,,,a "remainder",,and their the only ones that have figured out their in the "program" and are trying to get out.
then,,,theres should be a commercial for "DELL" hehe ;)

[masalai]

I've got a <Del> button on my computer, does that count?

[the1much]

it should,,,maybe,,,probably not

[Knut Sand]

Huh? Mr Anderson?

[Guillermo]

That's serious heavy english in there, methinketh....
I love this, from another heavy: Erasmus' "The Praise of Folly"

"But if you ask me why I appear before you in this strange dress, be pleased to lend me your ears, and I'll tell you; not those ears, I mean, you carry to church, but abroad with you, such as you are wont to prick up to jugglers, fools, and buffoons, and such as our friend Midas once gave to Pan. For I am disposed awhile to play the sophist with you; not of their sort who nowadays boozle young men's heads with certain empty notions and curious trifles, yet teach them nothing but a more than womanish obstinacy of scolding: but I'll imitate those ancients who, that they might the better avoid that infamous appellation of _sophi_ or_wise_, chose rather to be called sophists."

Cheers. ;)

Cheers.

[the1much]

where ta hell are singforpoor and tiedland?,,they anywhere near hawaii ? hehe ;)

[tinhorn]

...and I have thorn lacerations about my thighs and calf muscles from running through bloody jungle to get to beer and women.

Things must be different in Thailand. Here in the Pacific Northwest, they come to you, bringing beer. At least that is my experience.

Henrik Svensmark.
He claimed the following; Global warming is not caused by humans burning fossile fuel (****, Pericles will smell that one...). He claimed that solar activity were causing cosmic rays, that causes, build up of lower clouds that again results in global warming. He had graphs, showing solar spots/ activity compared to temperatures.

He was pretty convincing, and probably on to something, but then again, trying to find the theory on the net... I ended up on "Buy this book thing", maybe he's into this for the money.... Or maybe I'm just too cynical....


Scroll back a few pages to find Pericles's post with a few links. (I think it was this thread.) Those will explain sun activity and the relationship to the normal pattern of warming and cooling that the earth experiences.

The idea that we cause these temperature shifts is a hoax, yes, but the fact that we're being screwed at the gas station is real. I applaud your ideas for treading more gently on the planet simply as a matter of good stewardship.

[the1much]

i think it should be treated like you was hunting on someone elses land,,would everyone litter ? trash,,burn,,dig up the landowners land? (specially in places where people do, do that,,and now most land is posted so noone can "use" the land) if i had the only land near you (any of us) that had the only lake near you,,and i let people use my land and lake to have family fun ,,,and then i said,,,ya know,,,i think that smoking cigs on my land is killing my trees, and its not good for the kids,,so please no more smoking while here.,,,would ya say,,dude your full of crap,, screw you!,,,or would ya say,,o.k. sir ,,we will stop while using your land. (even if we all KNEW the dude was an idiot,,we (i hope) would still respect him and his land and not smoke?)

[Knut Sand]

Think someone once said; we don't own this earth, we're only borrowing it from our children.

arrgkk, now I jeest sound toooo soft here...:rolleyes:

[the1much]

if it wasnt for my kids i wouldnt care,i really dont like people enough to care,,,i wonder if its like that for people with no kids,,,,,"who gives a crap, i dont have kids that have to fix my fuk up"

[Knut Sand]

Hey!

you're stealing my "I don't play hard to get, I play hard to want" attitude! ;)

Think i better call it a night,,,come to think of it....Night all of you...:)

[the1much]

niterz knut ;)

[Frosty]

I think it is the Aussie Aboriginies that say that we can not own land it is not right. It was Crocodile Dundee that said in the movies It is like 2 flees fighting over who owns the dog.

After all said and done you don't own it. You have the right to live on it until you are dead.

The government can take it from you if they wish for an amount of compensation they feel is appropriate.

And with town and planning you can do nothing with it that they don't agree on, hell you cant even chop down a tree on it without asking, dig a well build a tower, extend a garage, etc etc

In Uk you cant change a window unless it the same window as every one else has. In Spain in some areas you must paint a house white.

Errrr can you define ownership?

[the1much]

our "indians" said the same thing bout owning the earth.
and i have ALWAYS said that we (us here in the us) never own land,,,we rent it from the government,,then i tell em,,,,if ya dont believe me dont pay property taxes (rent) for a couple years,,,or,,,, have a gambling casino want your land ( or any other big biz) and the state will take it away,,give ya a couple dollars,,and give it to the biz,(eminent domain)

[safewalrus]

Ownership just means it's your fault when it all goes 'tits up'! Well they got to blame somebody -"they" (the powers that be) can't be wrong can they??

[Pericles]

Brian,

This site for information on Chaiten volcano. http://volcanism.wordpress.com/

It may yet have an effect on weather in the southern hemisphere.

Regards,

Perry

[masalai]

Sorry Per, I don't think any more (or less), just let it happen....

[wmonastra]

if you own your boat (and live on it ) is it yours??? as far as i know we dont have to pay to live on the water?? only have to pay to use the facilities on the land?? ( i could be wrong?)

the powers may own the land but id like to think that the water if free...

[masalai]

As far as I can find out it mostly still is "free to sail over" in most places to a greater or lesser degree (buoys and lights fees in SI where there are none but the fees are still required)... :D:D:D

[Frosty]

if you own your boat (and live on it ) is it yours??? as far as i know we dont have to pay to live on the water?? only have to pay to use the facilities on the land?? .


Mmmm a good one that,-- ille have to show that to the marina manager.

[safewalrus]

Frosty as the man said youmay own the boat! he owns the wall!!

[Petros]

in all nomadic cultures owning land (or shoreline, or what have you) was never an issue. They would strip an area of food and then pack up and to a new area to harvest. Owning things only slowed you down, risked your survival, property is a liability. The faster you can harvest and move out, the more likely you are to survive.

With agriculture owning land became important, the more good land you owned the more food (resources) you controlled. Property becomes an asset. So the idea of owning land is only important if it is a source of power and survival. So there had to be a way of defining who owned it (a title) and where it is located (and how big it is), with a boundary survey. George Washington was a land survey in a new land, where the local population (nomads) had no sense of ownership. The land was valuable to the Europeans, not to the natives.

Arabs were once all nomads (vast lands to wander around in with little resources available), until they discovered there was oil under all that sand, and there was a market for it. So who owned and controlled that otherwise useless land became important (and worth fighting over).

If you blow about with the wind in your sailboat, and get all your food from the open ocean, than the only possession worth owning is a good sailboat and a fishing pole. And let all of the Hummer owners fight over the oil rich lands.

[masalai]

Well said Petros, and may all the "hummer" owners suffer the fate they demand...?

[wmonastra]

ahhh the good ol'e hum vee a lol, great looking 4x4s, even drove one once , but would never want to own one, be to damm scared of hitting anything, (esp on nz roads as they arnt the widest ). give me a good vespa anyday lol

[masalai]

Large 4x4's SUV's and even the toyota etc landcruiser should be TAXED off the roads, when the mamas get hold of one they are a positive menace and arrogance, Just try to park your small sensible fuel efficient car near the school to pick up your kids or whatever - the agression, language and attitude would make a battle hardened soldier feel weak.... and they can't drive for **** either.....

[Meanz Beanz]

They try and run me over all the time... they look across the top of my car.

[wmonastra]

we could always follow the sheep and go buy one ourselves and join in on the fun lol:D

[Frosty]

Can you ride a sheep?-----, No I don't mean like that, I mean sit on it, or get a few of them and get them to pull a cart like Ben Hur did.

You dont need to have swords sticking out of the wheels or anything just sensible transport.

[Knut Sand]

and get them to pull a cart like Ben Hur did.

You dont need to have swords sticking out of the wheels or anything just sensible transport.

Hmm, sword sticking out of the wheel base, sounds sensible to me.....:D

[wmonastra]

i can try lol.. i know of a few sheep farmers who may let me play for awile lololo:D

[Pericles]

Brian,

How about a really hard driving test before sheilas are allowed to drive 4x4 vehicles? That should reduce the numbers outside the schools.:D :D :D :D :D Also, put stickers on the SUVs that illustrate big vehicles are substitutes for large hairy testicles. :P :P :P :P BTW, it's the catholic schools mothers who are the most brain dead at the wheel. Too many kids to get ready, means they are always late and so they drive without due care and attention. What's worse is they are so FAT & UGLY.:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

In earlier times, kids had to walk 5 miles to school and back each day. The classes got smaller as wild animals took their toll, so only the quickest and smartest survived. This ensured very good pass marks for sport and science (evolution) exam results :D :D :D

I trust all who read this are openminded.:idea:

Perry

[Guillermo]

BTW, it's the catholic schools mothers who are the most brain dead at the wheel. Too many kids to get ready, means they are always late and so they drive without due care and attention. What's worse is they are so FAT & UGLY.:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
My wife will be very happy to know your kind opinion on her, thanks.

Cheers.

[Knut Sand]

My wife will be very happy to know your kind opinion on her, thanks.

Cheers.

Ummm.... Just to avoid WWIII in here, maybe he didn't mean it quite that rude...?

And btw, my opinion here; (here in Norway) worst drivers are 18+, barely (just got their license) with a overweight of young men (girls coming strolgly after..), They can't die. They have fast cars. They neglect rules and common sense. They did not consentrate in the class when teacher was talking about the Newtons first, second and third law..... They lack fundamental understanding.... :confused:

They don't undertand the simple fact that if too many of them die, I'll have none to change my diapers when I get old....:rolleyes:

[Pericles]

Guillermo,

You are an early bird! :D :D These are UK mothers!!

You do not live 200 metres from Sacred Heart primary school in Ruislip. :D :D :D Seriously, the mothers drive at over 64 kph along a short stretch of suburban road which is only wide enough fo one car to pass due to all the parked cars. The official speed limit is 48 kph, but there are plans to reduce this to 32 kph.

See map. http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=509509&y=186403&z=1&sv=509509,186403&st=4&ar=Y&mapp=newmap.srf&searchp=newsearch.srf

The mothers enter Herlwyn Avenue at both ends. Those from the south cut the blind corner (A for Avenue) by driving on the right hand side of the road. The other mothers enter from the north, turn left into Beechwood Avenue, right into Crosier Way (even narrower) and blast along weaving side to side to pass parked cars. Then they stop within the forbidden stop zones and swear if there are objections from the people who live by the school. Let me say this, they are the worst looking harridans you will ever see. Be very, very thankful that you and your family live in Galicia. I can't wait to move away from where the arrow points. I'll email you a Google earth image.

Best wishes,

Perry

PS

08-55 BST. A crash has just happened at junction of Crosier and Herlwyn at the E of Herlwyn. Just car damage, no injuries.

[Meanz Beanz]

Get a grip man.... Fanies having a mid life points crisis, get over there!

[safewalrus]

Screw the bloody leaves!!

[safewalrus]

Lucky leaves!!

[DanishBagger]

But they're bloody, so the "screwer" might be a bit unlucky.

[masalai]

Eh? what is this screwing stuff plastered all over the place? has a new brothel been opened? & no one told Frosty? OOOooOOoOOOOoooooooo:D

[Frosty]

Excuse me,--- I do not frequent brothels,-- they are bars that have nice friendly girls that are unkindly labeled by the activities of the so called brothels that the rest of the world seem familiar with.

Ok some are!! but not much,-- well ok theres quites a few I suppose.

Just checking the thread,Ok this will do.

The climate changed last night in the Bar when 5 Indians walked in. Normally these people are not welcome in "Brothels" and the piano player stopped and every one new they had come in" if you know what I mean:

Then --then-- Oh Oh 2 of them took 2 girls off to the short time rooms that are just across the gardens from where me n mates were sitting.

After about half an hour one of the girls comes out as mad as hell, threw her hand bag onto the table where she was sitting and sat there breathing fire.

In dont know what happened but Im sure it was money,-- ie,-- did not comply with previously arranged negotiation.

The are all the same,--they are not welcome in most bars at all and some places have signs up ,--especially for the Arabs.

Any way the climate in the bar was destroyed and the atmosphere was different.

[Pericles]

There is a thread on the forum about identifying places, However, here is where I post this location link as it is somewhere I decline to visit, bearing in mind the nature of this thread.:D Talk about immobilized!

http://www.ilovemycarbondioxide.com/letters/Global_Warming_in_2008.pdf

Moving on, for this link from Brian last March about a lump of ice the size of Man.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7313264.stm

Earlier this month, I was prompted to write twice to Richard Black, Environment Correspondent, after reading this cut & paste article.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7461707.stm
---------------------------------------------------

Dear Sir,

http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

The NSIDC site latest report is dated 3rd June. After reading it, overall, I have to say that your 18th June article is more alarmist than their factual analysis. What did you use for your source? For example, you seem to have ignored this statement at their site.

"However, the unusual location of some of this year's first-year ice may help more of it survive than otherwise might be expected. This year, much of the first-year ice is farther north than normal, and those northern areas receive weaker solar radiation. So, northern first-year ice may be less vulnerable to melt than first-year ice in typical locations."

You wrote

"In March, Nasa reported that the area covered by sea ice was slightly larger than in 2007,"

yet you neglect to point out that NSIDC have posted the figures for May;
Overview of conditions

Arctic sea ice extent for May stood at 13.18 million square kilometers (5.09 million square miles), which is 0.28 million square kilometers (0.11 million square miles) greater than May 2007, but is still 0.42 million square kilometers (0.16 million square miles) less than the 1979 to 2000 average for the month.

Conditions in context

Although ice extent is slightly greater than this time last year, the average decline rate through the month of May was 8 thousand square kilometers per day (3 thousand square miles per day) faster than last May. Ice extent as the month closed approached last May’s value.

Average Arctic Ocean surface air temperatures in May were generally higher than normal. While anomalies were modest (+1 to 3 degrees Celsius, +2 to 5 degrees Fahrenheit) over most of the region, temperatures over the Baffin Bay region were as much as 6 degrees C (11 degrees F) above normal. The atmospheric circulation in May was highly variable. The first half of the month saw strong winds blowing from east to west over the southern Beaufort Sea. This wind pattern probably contributed to polynya formation near Banks Island and along the northwestern coast of Alaska.

Since then, of course, conditions are not the same. Witness the reports at http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/06/18/a-window-on-water-vapor-and-planetary-temperature/

There is also a change in satellite data collection.

The DMSP F13 satellite that has been central to our Arctic sea ice analysis for the past several years is nearing the end of its mission. As is standard data practice, we have transitioned to a newer sensor, in this case the DMSP F15. The DMSP F15 has the same type of sensor as the DMSP F13.

NSIDC has done preliminary intercalibration to assure consistency with the historical record. Further calibration and processing will be necessary, which may slightly affect final reported ice extent values (on average +/- 30,000 square kilometers or 11,600 square miles per preliminary number reported).

As for what Julienne Stroeve believes:

"But now it's so thin that you would have to have an exceptional sequence of cold winters and cold summers in order for it to rebuild."

I would say be careful what you wish for. Where is Solar Cycle 24?

http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/data/realtime/mdi_igr/512/

Yours faithfully,


Dear Sir,

Further to my earlier email of 19th June, I draw your attention to a document entitled Solstice Sea Ice Update. Currently Antarctic ice extent is running nearly 1 million square kilometers higher than last year at this time. Peak comes at the end of the southern winter (September). In contrast, the Arctic set a record for the least extent since 1979 last September. It recovered at a record pace in the fall and reached levels more like several years ago this past winter. Last year the upper level pattern in June was very anomalous with a strong ridge of high pressure and warm surface temperatures. The ice melt was rapid. that blocking high pressure led to anomalous warmth near Siberia and Bering Strait and near Greenland leading to rapid ice melt. The surface wind flow helped drain ice from the arctic into the Atlantic at a much higher than normal rate.

This year for the same 20 day period, there is a cold trough migrating around the Arctic Ocean with blocking confined to Greenland. The result is temperatures much closer to normal over much of the arctic and cold pools near the Bering Straits and Siberian coast. Models suggest the cold pool strengthens some in the arctic the next few weeks. It is a long time until September, but if the pattern persists, we will likely come up short of last year’s record. The global sea ice which has been running above normal is now near normal. By Joseph D’Aleo, CCM, AMS Fellow

http://icecap.us/images/uploads/SOLSTICE_SEA_ICE_UPDATE.pdf

In southern Chile, Chaitén continues to disrupt life. The Chilean Minister of Public Works, Sergio Bitar, visited the Chaitén area 20th June, and said that the town of Chaitén would not be inhabitable for at least two years. Not since early May has there been a report on the BBC site. Isn't it important enough?

http://www.seablogger.com/?page_id=11086

http://volcanism.wordpress.com/

Yours faithfully

Did I expect to get an reply? No, nor really

It just goes to show how biased the BBC is with regard to supporting its EU paymasters, whose desire is to destroy all Democracy in Europe by using green taxes. Global cooling will do them over good and proper like. Know what I mean, John?

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/tv_and_radio/article3257748.ece

BTW, A international expedition discovers clues about 1999 gigantic volcanic eruption in the Arctic Ocean. Question, does hot water melt ice? :D :D :D

http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-06/haog-fut062508.php

Could this incident be the reason for Julienne Stroeve's ice records posted in April?

http://nsidc.org/news/press/20070430_StroeveGRL.html

I think I shall email for her and Roger Black for their opinions.

Regards,

Perry

[Pericles]

Dear Sir,

Here is a report released today about a gigantic volcanic eruption in the Arctic Ocean that occurred in 1999.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-06/haog-fut062508.php

What is unique about this situation is that it was a large, completely undetected eruption. Researchers have assumed that explosive volcanism cannot happen in water depths exceeding 3 kilometres because of high ambient pressure. “These are the first pyroclastic deposits we’ve ever found in such deep water, at oppressive pressures that inhibit the formation of steam, and many people thought this was not possible,” says Robert Reves-Sohn, staff member of the WHOI and lead scientist of the expedition carried out on the Swedish icebreaker Oden in 2007.

However, we do know that hot water melts ice and it's plausible to accept that this event in 1999 will have affected the Arctic ice. How many other explosively erupting mid ocean ridge volcanoes remain undetected?

As you know, there are active volcanoes under Antarctic ice http://icecap.us/images/uploads/AntarcticVolcanoes2.jpg , but the ice nearly 1 million square kilometers higher than last year at this time. http://icecap.us/images/uploads/SOLSTICE_SEA_ICE_UPDATE.pdf

These articles http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7194579.stm & http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080120160720.htm may toe the AGW line, but every new day sees more scientific evidence http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/ipcc-annoyance/ that refutes the claims of Al Gore, Jim Hansen and the IPCC.

http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/

http://www.icecap.us/

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v409/n6822/full/409808a0.html

http://www.climateaudit.org/ *

*The 2007 joint Best ScienceBlog winner. http://2007.weblogawards.org/polls/best-science-blog-1.php

http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/25/big-coal-fires-back-over-james-hansens-criminal-complaint/?ex=1215057600&en=cfd587b

http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/reprint/courtney_2006_lecture.pdf

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2008/05/17/32-000-deniers.aspx

http://iceagenow.com/index.htm

Will you be reporting Gakkel Ridge? I could find only one reference. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1760271.stm

Yours faithfully

[Guillermo]

Ummm.... Just to avoid WWIII in here, maybe he didn't mean it quite that rude...?
I know he was not meaning to be rude, don't worry. Perry's my friend. :)
And anyhow...who wants to begin WWIII with a guy who lives close to a RAF base? He can send you bombers with the twink of an eye....!!! :D

....Or then send you hordes of catholic mothers from Sacred Heart charging along at 64 mph!!! :D :D :D


Cheers.

[Pericles]

Avante Madres Catholicas.:D :D :D :D Correction appreciated please.

Perry

[Pericles]

Underwater volcanoes release vast amounts of Heat into the surrounding water, however the oceans are immense and one of two erupting volcanoes can have only limited effect? Except, they could number 3 million.

http://environment.newscientist.com/article/dn12218-thousand-of-new-volcanoes-revealed-beneath-the-waves.html

In 1999 a huge eruption took place 4000 metres down under the ice surrounding the North Pole. About that time, there were the first reports that AGW was melting the Arctic ice, allegedly because warmer water was entering the Arctic Ocean from the North Pacific and Atlantic.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-06/haog-fut062508.php

http://www.mpg.de/english/illustrationsDocumentation/documentation/pressReleases/2003/pressRelease20030718/index.html

http://www.usc.edu/uscnews/stories/14288.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gakkel_Ridge

Then, gosh, tarnation, more discoveries.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080619093259.htm

http://iceagenow.com/New_Island_Near_Tonga.htm

http://iceagenow.com/Ocean_Around_Japan_Warming_Fast.htm

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/07/060727-new-volcano.html

Of course, you will always find some stupid pillock with his head in the sand and his anus ready to receive a steel tipped boot right in the jaxxie. If I ever get the chance, my kick will have the concerted power of a sabot round from a MBT.:D :D :D

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/exclusive-no-ice-at-the-north-pole-855406.html

It would be nice to think that we really are in for more warmth, but no sunspots means a cooler sun.

http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/data/realtime/mdi_igr/512/

We're up the Swanee, gentlemen!:( :(

http://bourabai.narod.ru/landscheidt/new-e.htm

Perry

[Meanz Beanz]

Penn and Teller on the campaign trail! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi1LU45Nip0)

[tinhorn]

Penn and Teller on the campaign trail! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi1LU45Nip0)

That's great! Here's another scary one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUP9Jm9SqvY&amp;feature=related

[safewalrus]

Tin horn I like it! What a great idea!! Personnally I don't think anybody should be allowed to vote who hasn't done at leaast three years in the service of their country (ie. put their life on the line) in any country!! Put a halt to so much idiocy throughout the world!!

[DanishBagger]

Penn and Teller on the campaign trail! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi1LU45Nip0)

http://www.dhmo.org/
:cool:

[safewalrus]

Sounds good to me Danish - prefer the dehydrated version myself - just add water!! ;) no, honest!

[DanishBagger]

True Wally.

It makes for much easier backpacking.

[Meanz Beanz]

Tinny,

Thats a laugh... people will sign anything it seems!


http://www.dhmo.org/
:cool:


LOL, yes I have posted "wind up" threads on other boards based on that site. Its provided allot of entertainment... From my experiments I concluded that some young greenies are not thinking that clearly at all!


Cheers
Mbz

[DanishBagger]

LOL, yes I have posted "wind up" threads on other boards based on that site. Its provided allot of entertainment... From my experiments I concluded that some young greenies are not thinking that clearly at all!


Ha, ha , me too! I even posted it here before - a year or two ago. I can't remember in which thread, or if I actually made a separate thread for it, but believe me, it's not just young greenies falling for what is said on there.

It's a great exercise to see how critical people are to sources, especially net-sources.

Edit: Found it:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10555&highlight=dhmo

[masalai]

I thought this may be of interest (a different perspective?) - - from here http://www.wunderground.com/blog/RickyRood/show.html

This is the fifth in a series on the attribution of climate change; that is, how do we determine to what extent the observed warming is caused by humans? The earlier entries are cataloged at the end. (This one should, perhaps be the first!)
...

[Pericles]

Brian,

IMO, one sentence destroys all creditability. "Carbon dioxide, therefore, is different than in the past." Really!

If you are interested in a story of intrigue and naughtiness, try these links? They are chronological order and the comments are all relevant to the saga.

http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=3192

http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=3193

http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=3194

http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=3208#more-3208

"Read, mark and inwardly digest." as my English teacher said!.:D :D

Regards,

Perry

[masalai]

Not really Per - - Just a little bored, read this and immediately thought of you and how this would induce you to post a refuting argument, I didn't expect a researched thesis, just a "smilie" and a "no communist fish" in this thread please :D:D:D

Elucidate, Illuminate, Cogitate and a few other similes come to mind but my thesaurus is not with me at the moment...:D:D:D

Apologies for the intrusion....

[Pericles]

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[masalai]

Jees Per, Thank you for the good chuckle, I would give points for that but I am not allowed yet? , , Thanks

[Pericles]

June 26, 2008
Arctic ice melt may be due to undersea volcanoes
Thomas Lifson
The Arctic ice that is supposedly melting, stranding those cuddly looking polar bears, just might be affected by a wave of volcanic eruptions on the ocean floor under the Arctic ice cap. AFP reports on the recently-documented volcanoes, but oddly makes no mention of the possible effect on apocalyptic predictions of global warming.

Recent massive volcanoes have risen from the ocean floor deep under the Arctic ice cap, spewing plumes of fragmented magma into the sea, scientists who filmed the aftermath reported Wednesday.

The eruptions - as big as the one that buried Pompei - took place in 1999 along the Gakkel Ridge, an underwater mountain chain snaking 1,800 kilometres (1,100 miles) from the northern tip of Greenland to Siberia.

Scientists suspected even at the time that a simultaneous series of earthquakes were linked to these volcanic spasms.

But when a team led of scientists led by Robert Sohn of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution in Massachusetts finally got a first-ever glimpse of the ocean floor 4,000 meters (13,000 feet) beneath the Arctic pack ice, they were astonished.

What they saw was unmistakable evidence of explosive eruptions rather than the gradual secretion of lava bubbling up from Earth's mantle onto the ocean floor...


Steve Gilbert of Sweetness & Light draws our attention to the report, and makes all the connections AFP studiously ignores:

Er, is it not possible that these volcanic eruptions - going back to at least 1999 - may have played a part in whatever melting there has been of the Greenland and Arctic ice sheets?

If there has even been any


For according to the global warming cultists scientists at NOAA's Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Laboratory, the decline seems to have begun in earnest around 1999.

But isn't it funny how not one word of this possibility was ever mentioned in the original article?

Why is that?


Do not hold your breath waiting for the major media to trumpet this dramatic new discovery and the implication that anthropogenic global warming theory has nothing to do with polar bears.

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/06/arctic_ice_melt_mat_be_due_to.html

"Shucks to Murgatroyd, who'd a believed it." :D :D :D

Perry

[Pericles]

Climate Regime Shifts of the Past Four Centuries Reference
D'Arrigo, R., Wilson, R., Deser, C., Wiles, G., Cook, E., Villalba, R., Tudhope, A., Cole, J. and Linsley, B. 2005. Tropical-North Pacific climate linkages over the past four centuries. Journal of Climate 18: 5253-5265.

What was done
The authors developed a tree-ring-based reconstruction of the December-May North Pacific Index (NPI) - which is a measure of the atmospheric circulation related to the Aleutian low pressure cell - for the period 1600-1983, based on data derived from 18 tree-ring chronologies (selected from a total of 67 candidate chronologies) obtained from sites surrounding the North Pacific rim that calibrated "significantly at or above the 90% significance level" against winter/spring monthly values of the NPI derived from 20th-century instrumental data. In addition, they employed an intervention analysis to the NPI reconstruction "to identify significant shifts in the series."

What was learned
D'Arrigo et al. report that "the NPI reconstruction successfully tracks the known regime shifts (1924/25, 1946/47, and 1976/77) seen in the instrumental NPI during the twentieth century." They also note that "prior to the instrumental period there are decadal-scale variations that may also represent regime shifts," noting that "significant 'shifts' (at the 90% confidence limit) are identified in 1627, 1695, 1762, 1806, 1833, 1853, and 1891."

What it means
The nine researchers conclude that their analysis "suggests that the 1976 transition was not unique in terms of magnitude." In addition, the recurring nature of the climate regime shifts suggests that they are natural non-anthropogenic-forced phenomena that have nothing to do with the historical increase in the air's CO2 content. This conclusion is particularly noteworthy in light of the fact that the study of Seidel and Lanzante (2004) suggests, in their words, that "it is reasonable to consider most of the warming during 1958-2001 to have occurred at the time of the climate 'regime shift,' modeled here at the start of 1977." Consequently, the complementary findings of these two studies do much to relieve anthropogenic CO2 emissions of responsibility for the global warming of the last fifty or more years.

Reference
Seidel, D.J. and Lanzante, J.R. 2004. An assessment of three alternatives to linear trends for characterizing global atmospheric temperature changes. Journal of Geophysical Research 109: 10.1029/2003JD004414.
Reviewed 2 July 2008

http://www.co2science.org/articles/V11/N27/C2.php

Perry

[Fanie]

I think the global warming issue has peaked and limited it's income for now.

Probably more people welcome the extra heat than colder weather.

A new angle is now introduced to create income from and after all this global warming hoo-ha what better than to scare the crap out of everyone with the new ice age. The softening up has begun. You all can look foreward to shaking your wallets again for the new cause in the due future ;)

http://www.winningreen.com/site/epage/59588_621.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...24/2225980.htm

Where exactly do they actually measure earth's temperature again ?

[the1much]

have ya seen the "wind generator" some country (i hope not,,but think its france,,hehe) they make a huge greenhouse,,with a tall @ss "chimney",,and the greenhouse is just a roof,,no sides,,,,and the "heating" of the air sends it up the chimney,, where they have a "fan" that is turned by the flowing air,,,,and they generate electricity from that,,,,,they have 1,,and are gonna build another, but way bigger.

[tinhorn]

Pretty clever. Man, people around me are all putting black roofs on their houses. Must make the attics blistering hot, but maybe there's an application for all that heated air!

Kinda reminds me of the old hippie I knew who watered his garden pulling the moisture out of the air with plastic pipe. Relied on pipe color, condensation, air temp (night/day), and all kinds of lo-tech but sophisticated reasoning. And this was in high desert country - not like it was Seattle or someplace damp!

Hmmmm.....wonder how many fans you could stack in that chimney.

[the1much]

i want ta get a bunch of $ and grab some land,,,,people will start leasing it for "solar farms,,,,and cattle can graze under the panels,,hehe ;)
i found a couple links the solar chimney,,,,,,,,,
http://www.sbp.de/en/fla/mittig.html
http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2008/02/06/solar-tower-produce-energy-using-air-turbines/

[safewalrus]

I can see only one 'true' fact emerging from all this drivel - a lot of people are making a good living from this global warming / climate change ****! how do you get on the 'band wagon?'

[the1much]

hook up a bike to a generator,and pedal ya @ss off,,,and sell ya clean( yet smelly) energy,,hehe ;)

[safewalrus]

sod that, sounds like to much work! I want the job that pays a fortune and you don't even get your hands dirty!!

[the1much]

thats called a drug dealer,or politician,,,and the "retirement" suks,,hehe ;)

[safewalrus]

Can't do that, too honest!

[Aristophanes]

I am a wildlife researcher at the University of Alberta. From what I have seen with my own eyes I have no doubt. The truth seems to be how we spin it, or what we choose to believe. The facts are above dispute and all over the place. I am not in favor of alternative energy that is "week". I am in favor of an economic base shift to hydrogen. It will guarantee a world wide economic explosion just in the conversion kits. It will stop the funding of terrorists. It will get the Greens off everyone's back. It won't stop what is coming as it really is too late, but it will solve the above problems. Of course if we are all happy with the price of oil, or if we have our investments tied up in it, then the economic base shift doesn't make much sense; after all who will live for ever?

Party up,
Aristophanes

[the1much]

what energy source do you use to get the hydrogen? ,,just the conversion kits alone are thousands of $ ,,and with the economic situation we have now,,,we cant afford a weeks worth of gas. and what makes other alternatives "weak",,the "solar towers" takes no energy at all to operate,,,,what does it take to get hydrogen into a useful form?

[tinhorn]

Solar towers.....transportation.....I'm gonna start buying stovepipe, bicycle chain, and old Yugos.

[Fanie]

after all who will live for ever?
I hope you have doubts about yourself, because I have other plans :D

Jim, youtube 'fire from water'

[Aristophanes]

Solar power (solar concentrators), wind power, geothermal, tidal are all "green" ways of producing hydrogen. I want to be wrong about a lot of things ... I would like to loose weight on a diet of ice cream.

Party Up,
Aristophanes

[Aristophanes]

Don't know about Yugo's but I love my Geo Metro, my wood burning stove and my Griesel Suburban.

Party Up,
Aristophanes

[the1much]

Solar power (solar concentrators), wind power, geothermal, tidal are all "green" ways of producing hydrogen. I want to be wrong about a lot of things ... I would like to loose weight on a diet of ice cream.

Party Up,
Aristophanes

arent those the "weak" alternatives you was talking bout? ,,,man im confused again,,hehe ;)

[Aristophanes]

No you are not confused! Yes they are the so called "weak" alternatives as quoted from another's previous posting. I don't see them as weak. However I feel that none of the fore mentioned could act alone as an economic base. As there are many ways to extract oil, there are many ways to extract/ produce hydrogen. I see them more as ways to extract/ produce a product that is more tradable. I believe that hydrogen would make a better economic base; a base that would more readily replace oil.

Party Up,
Aristophanes

[the1much]

it would be nice,,,i'd go along with any of them that got us away from oil ( after i make my million $ from it) ,, im even thinkin bout a chicken sh!t burning car ( quick way to get rid of mine) hehe ;)

[Aristophanes]

Like you said, whatever gets us away from oil. Too bad we can't use the people who don't believe that climate is a reality as fuel; they seem to be loaded gas, plentiful and easy to find.

Aristophanes

[Aethelwulffe]

One thing is certain from what I can see.
We need real education in the US. Ain't got nun. We are a pack of church-going conservatives that are suspicious of any change at all. We don't have traditions (not in the Euro sense) except for a tendency to treat our good life like old money treats it's finances. We just try to hold onto what we have, and we get mad when someone tells us that we can't act like idiots anymore. Europe is a less stable environment (has been historically). We have it easy here. People don't want things to change, and they are in good company. It is easy to be in denial when you are in the middle of an AMEN crowd. It's going to take a bit of a crash to shake it up here. Hopefully, Obama will have the forethought to rent a KKK outfit to go to his next debate with McCain in. We gotta make him seem like a corporate bought-and-sold conservative so we can sneak him into the Whitehouse back door. Then we might get some social structure in place here. That may help us in the future to actually develop a society, culture, and some sense of responsibility for our greedy virus-like tendencies. We can do it, of that I am certain.

I have not seen (as a point of some research) that we can support our current population in a totally indefinite state on this planet. Research indicates that the US alone is about 30% higher than it could actually support in a renewable state. Some research that actually seems more believable shows that with a few percentages of error in certain areas, we might have ten times the actual sustainable population. Pre-industrial levels of population seem to bear that out. At that level, you can have some decent per-capita energy usage on a renewable level.
There is no "magic fuel". We get all of our energy...all of it...from nuclear power. The sun. You can only renew as much of that as you can collect. Breeder reactors are our only real "cheat". If you want to have a high-population, and high energy use, nuclear is the only option if you want sustainability. Sun farms and the like do not bring good return, and we would need a lot of dirt covered up with solar panels to support our current needs. Not really doable. The math does not pan out. The math does not come close. Want alternatives? Gotta think big. Gotta think extraplanetary. Gotta think space elevators and sollettas and all kinds of hokey stuff that you can only build with a real integrated and dedicated society...which brings us back to education....

[the1much]

ya should see the wind farms comming your way off your coast,,,they make SO much energy here,, that the lines cant handle it,,their adding more and bigger lines now,,and the solar chimneys can cover thousands of acres, and the land still be used for farming, livestock,,,can ya imagine 1 out of every 5 farms ( that us citizens pay for by GIVING the farmer money even if he doesnt grow anything) under a chimney,,and talking bout farmers,,,what bout half of those idiots,,,instead of taking our money,, farm something you can make HONEST money with,,solar power.,,nuclear power is cool and all,,,but do you want its waste in your back yard?,, and if you changed completly over to nuclear,,,could you imagine all the accidents, and all the waste,,,oil is killing us,,what bout that crap?

[Aethelwulffe]

Part of the education thing. People know a lot less about nuclear power than they think they do. Wind farms that you can still use for agriculture does not address the fact that we are using far far too much land for agriculture. The albedo signature of a wheat field (over a year period) is almost the equivelant of bare ground. The problem is not just oil use. It is far far more than that. A sustainable society would look more unusual than just some windfarms hacking migratory birds to death and emaciating bee populations and the like. Not that getting involved with non-hydrocarbon based energy distribution systems is a bad thing at all. It's just that properly run, nuclear power is lower impact than any other form of energy production, period. I am sure you have heard of all kinds of hideous goings-on about Long Island, Chernobel, and finding spent nuclear fuel in your trash-can, but the truth is, containment of spent fuel and low-level waste is not the issue you think it is.
(Cite: http://www.goshen.edu/bio/Biol410/BSSPapers98/schrock/schrock.html )
An average supermarket parking lot full of barrels would represent all the non-incineratable nuclear waste ever produced. We could store this in Yucca Mountain easily, but that is not even neccessary. It is another stupid political issue. You see, all the spent nuclear fuel could/can still be re-processed. Literally, it can be easily made good again. The issue is that the same process that does that is used to create weapon-grade material. The issue of nuclear waste is an issue born of ignorance. Education and a re-training from hearsay of ignorant paranoia is extremely important. I for one could live as a Luddite no problem, but I can't get the rednecks to do that, so I gotta be interested in the energy economy. Nuclear energy is the only clean compact form of energy production that I could not find huge issues..other than social...with. As far as melt-downs and large plant disasters: Chernoble is nothing like a modern plant. It was nothing like what it was supposed to have been in the first place. We do things TOTALLY differently. The Long Island event was BS as well. Not only was that also drasticly different technology, but the causation of the problem was because the PR people involved did not release information in the correct way. It was not as big of a deal as it was made out to be.
Wanna lend a hand with re-forming society to a responsible drumbeat? Take part and do a real individual investigation into the minutia and issues surrounding nuclear power, as well as the problems associated with solar, hydro, wind and other forms. Then make the call. Then teach what you have learned, whatever that may be. We need more WIDELY educated opinions on this stuff, or we can't make the right decisions.

[the1much]

sustainable society<<i didnt know we was talkin bout that,,,,,and if your gonna put things down,, least know what your talking about,,,,do you know how many birds have been hacked up by them slow moving turbines??,,i do,,,,NONE,,there has NEVER been 1 documented case of a bird being hacked by a wind generator.
and the bee kill off is due to a bacteria,,,,see,,,you HAD a good conversation going,,,then you let your OPINION sound like facts.,,,and i lived very FEW moles from 3 mile,,,,and the next town over will soon be a nuclear dump site,,,so ive heard alot,,,,but ive SEEN the "real deal",,,and im not to sure the #s given by the nuclear commission is even CLOSE to that ridicules parking lot #,,,hehe,,im sure THEIR # was MUCH higher.
,,and all this that your saying,,,,,kinda, in a funny way,,,proves your own point,,,,,we need ALOT more education ,, instead of the usual responses of BOTH sides.
and on the "not knowing bout nuclear",,,,my uncle was a reactor "plumber"
and again,,,crunch your #'s,,,say theres 1 nuclear (power plant only,,,we wont even start on the transporting the waste material, and how many of those accidents there are)accident for every 50 power plants every 10 years.,,,How many of those plants will we need? and to even entertain the notion that a accident like the russians had isnt possible because we're so much more technically advanced now,,is pretty "simple" minded,,,,,how many of our technological war vehicles have we lost just cause of a faulty wire or fuse?
see,,,we have ALL thought,,and discussed,,and shown each other #'s,,,read this whole thread, and all the links,,so we "kinda" have a hold on the #'s,,having a good convo bout matters like this takes more then the usual "babble",,,,,,,,so dont get mad,, or take it personal,,the kind of person i am,,,,i may just agree with ya,,,but that doesnt make babble any more truer.
and ya never answered,,,,,do you want that waste site in your backyard?,,,and if your answer is yes,,,,,,i hope ya dont have children or old mothers around ya house to often,,hehe ;)

[Aristophanes]

Have you heard of the 59th minute? We are there brothers ... it is already too late. Sit back enjoy the ride. Last call ... drink up, drink up.

Party it up,
Aristophanes

[safewalrus]

That's right - nuke the lot and start again! thinking of changing my name to Adam, now where did I put that apple?

[the1much]

saying its too late is a cop out,,,,thats the excuse people that dont want to change say , to make not doing anything o.k. in their heads.

[Aethelwulffe]

sustainable society<<i didnt know we was talkin bout that,,,,,and if your gonna put things down,, least know what your talking about,,,,do you know how many birds have been hacked up by them slow moving turbines??,,i do,,,,NONE,,there has NEVER been 1 documented case of a bird being hacked by a wind generator.
)


Uh, dude...the bee and the bird thing were SARCASM.

Next, I was a Navy nuclear engineer...yeah, I know a bit about Rickovers....and a fellow Alumini and close friend designs wind turbines. No, I don't want waste in my backyard, that is what most of the post is about---like read it! Hear the words Yucca mountain. Hear the words "re-processing" Hear the words "education" Oh for Crisake, hear the words "visit your third grade English teacher for writing lessons". And keep the insinuations of "doesn't know what you are talking about" or "presenting opinions as facts" in your colon. I believe I made the statement something like " Take part and do a real individual investigation into the minutia and issues surrounding nuclear power, as well as the problems associated with solar, hydro, wind and other forms. Then make the call. Then teach what you have learned, whatever that may be. We need more WIDELY educated opinions on this stuff, or we can't make the right decisions.
This is a call for people to get into the science of things, think for themselves, NOT an attempt to present any opinions as facts. You are just reacting defensivley to a perceived (incorrectly) attack on wind turbines.
EDIT:
I do agree that saying "it's too late" is a serious cop out. It's too late to be caught in the architypical grief process when dealing with environmental issues. What is that? Denial, Anger, Blame, and finally acceptance.

[the1much]

dude,,,i heard the words,,,yucky mountain,,and reprocessing,,,,,how many nuclear warheads are dismantled every day?,,even our weapons get "cleaned out" and THAT is waste as bad as it is straight from the nuclear reactor.and yucky mountain is someones backyard,,,and they thought hard bout filling that mountain,,,,,but cant,,,cause of all the problems with the rock,,,and they've shown the waste CAN leak out.
and you kinda dont know what your talking bout,,,when ya say things like waste is an issue of ignorance ,,,i also own a railroad in maine,,,we've had a few "hot loads" go through,,,and i see all the precautions they go through,,,,,the waste is as bad as the "good stuff" JUST as dangerous.
and NO im not being defensive bout wind turbines,,,i think the damned things are ugly,,,and im NOT "attacking" you,,,and am actually just having a conversation,,, i actually like it when we talk things around,,,i think nuclear is a way to go,,,but there needs to be EXTREME changes to assure public safety,,,see to turn it around,,,how come your only thought is about nuclear?,, it actually sounds like no matter what facts are shown,,your "opinion" (which i think does matter as much as facts when shooting round ideas,,,not saying "what is so") is the only way.,,,,,,,,,,ya know what i think?,,i think we cant be as STOOOOPID as we are now and depend on 1 solution,,,it will take ALL of them to make it so our kids can live a REAL life.
and i can "write" as good as my third grade teacher,,,i even got all them red lines to show me whats misspelled,,,,,now if we wanna throw insults around,, i can join ya,,,but im pretty sure you dont want that,,i didnt personally attack your grammar,,,,,,wtf is chrisakes?
now try to go back to a conversation,,,cause i have plenty of insults,,,but we TRY to keep this thread for the grown-ups.

[Aristophanes]

Hey Brothers,

We are on the same side. Please, please prove me wrong. I work in the Eastern slopes seeing things every day that, to me, are indisputable proof of climate change. I see the pine / spruce Beatle where it couldn't survive 10 years ago, yet there are still multitudes of people out there saying, of climate change, "it doesn't exist". Read what Pericles wrote at the beginning of this thread, then speak to me of denial, that's the mind that needs adjusting. How will we cure cancer when the afflicted deny having it. If we can get everyone, or at least a critical mass, to admit that we are denial of a deadly disease, for which there is no cure then, and only then, offer a glimmer of hope, we will not be fighting a winning battle.

We can't pack up and find a new planet, yet if we could, do you really think it would be the you or me on the ark or would be the Bush's? I would rather work with you than work alone. Please before dropping "cop out" and "Denial", research the 59th minute. If you do not have the time, goggle "Suzuki Speaks", it will help us all to become well informed.

Pissing and moaning about anything won't change it, believe me I have tried. Please guys, I know how much fun and addictive this stuff can be but ignorance is no excuse for failure. If you research the 59th minute, and still feel as if it is I that that is in denial, I will gladly give you the benefit of the doubt and where any tag of your choosing, It just won't be long before you remove it. We do something or we don't, I will not waste my time pissing in the wind. I will do what I can to make a difference then enjoy the sunset as the Zeppelin burns.


Party it up,
Aristophanes

[the1much]

the 59th minute is full of "opinions" and full of "facts" that ar not shown in a way that actually SHOWS the data is true,,,,everybody on ALL sides,(theres bout 5 sides) shows data the contradicts the "others",,,its never too late,,,,and there will always be people in denial,,and as usual, it will take the "few" to save the "many".
and people like "Pericles" is what is needed,,,,,cause without the views of all,,,no solutions are a definite,,if we all thought the same way,,,,, we end up like "waco texas",,,what if he's right?,,that makes us hypochondriacs <big werd:: and the ones in denial.,,,,,,i believe #'s are exaggerated from BOTH sides,,,,they ALWAYS are,,but i also believe that if we are wrong,,,thats o.k.,,the result from our "mistake" only makes life a little more difficult for a while,,but ends up making the earth better,,,,,BUT,,,the results from the "mistake" from the ones that believe nothing is wrong ,, would be what?,,,"their" results have dire effects,,,"ours" results in a better world.

[the1much]

oh,,,, and i agree that the worlds population is WAY too high,,,and we're "using" way more then we "produce" ,,,but before we "use" everything up,,,,,a disease will wipe us out,,,thats the major problem with over population.

[Aethelwulffe]

Yes, we are on the same side here. That is very refreshing. As a Nuke proponent, do not think for one second that I don't like wind and residential rooftop solar power.

But continuing the points....

First, reprocessing does not create high level waste, nor does it require transport. The only reason the material is being transported is political. In any case, transporting nuclear fuel should be done only by water. Underwater, two meters away from fuel grade material will completely protect you from radiation. The new methods/forms of nuclear fuel pellets and rods are very easy to safely transport. "Cleaning out" nuclear weapons by using them for fuel is the best (actually only) way to downgrade the material.

Second, I am glad you are not trying to alienate me with argument, but telling me I don't know what I am talking about instead of making point counterpoint kind of friks me off. I did my thesis on dispersion of radioactinides in groundwater, and I have visited the Yucca mountain site etc... or I would not have stonger opinions on it than what a railroad worker in Maine might have, despite you seeing the political ballyhoo associated with rail transport of radioactive material. Would you like some links to my students online lectures? Or is that wasting my time?

As far as the science takes us, Nuclear IS the lowest impact means. Do I support other forms of power? If I can't get the rednecks to stop lighting up their Wal-Marts like a roman candle, hell yes I do. Do I have paranoia of nuclear turbines born of hearing unreferencable sensationable media reports and watching rail transports? No. Do I know that damming rivers and other "clean" forms of energy productions also have their downsides? Yes. All aside, I wish that the coal-burner plant near my marina were nuclear. I wake up to a soot covered landscape every morning, despite it being a "clean" plant. I use a Four Winds generator for most of my juice, and I have a hideous set of panels set out on deck that are running the computer I am typing to you with (actually, I am probalby mostly on house battery, as it is rather overcast). Things like cars however take a lot of juice. I don't want cars in our society. I bet you do not. I could certainly go for using hydrocarbons in rail system if we were mature enough to shift to using trains and barge instead of SUV. We are going to be forced into a societal change, and that is that.

Wanna get into safety of nuclear power? A disaster involving the most ill-conceived power plant ever constructed, using no fuel packaging safety measures, using the crudest form of a nuclear pile, operating with no budget to speak of, guided by a closed and corrupt government melted down. One newspaper reported "over 20,000 dead:" although the number of known deaths had reached only 34 by 1995. An antinuclear activist has said that one pound of plutonium could kill eight billion people, although 10,000 pounds have been released into the atmosphere from weapons tests in the last 50 years enough by his estimate to kill everyone on earth several thousand times. Deaths from coal plant caused asthma (the most direct inarguable way to evaluate the mortality rate) was 3641 reported in the US last year. More people have been killed falling off the Hoover dam (NOTE: gratuitus meaningless strawman statistic for humour) or have had their lives shortened than have been killed by nuclear power. A modern bebblebed helium-cooled reactor powering a locomotive (as can be developed) would be perfectly safe. There is more danger in a gasoline-fueled vehicle. If you don't agree, fine, but at least let me invite you to investigate. If you want to use wind power to create a hydrogen society, you will not be running large locomotives on fuel cells in the near future, and cryofuels are inarguably the most dangerous thing you can pack into a moving vehicle. I would not want to be in the same county as a hydrogen plant....period. I love messing with my bi-propellant amature rockets, but I would not want to fly to work in one.

Want to see a society that uses nuclear power in the ways it should? Visit Europe. If it was not a good thing, it would never fly there. Facts are, Chernobyl ( a real accident) and 3-mile ( a non-event where containment functioned as designed and no danger was ever present) bolstered design practices and science greatly, improving the designs so significantly that modern facilities bear little resemblance to those plants.

[Aristophanes]

Climate change is here it exists. We can say it is god's will or nature's will or my fault. Can we do anything about it? Will we do anything about the population problem? I don't think so.


Tag me as you will, remember my words or don't. I hope you really are aware of the 59th minute. I hope that you prosper and that the most optimistic of us is correct. I will continue to use my own eyes. I will continue believing my eyes and other senses, as you may or may not do (as realist perceive myself to be). I would rather you be right than I (as an honest man).

A deal is a deal, what tag(s) would you have me wear?

Party up,
Aristophanes

[Aristophanes]

The oil companies support that assessment of hydrogen, that strait hydrogen used in an internal combustion engine (as opposed to the impracticality of fuel cells) is far too dangerous. Though, our current fuel tanks are far less safe than the current hydrogen tanks. I accept that nuke is a better option than fossil. However, I would not tread down the road of safety with fossil, nuke or hydrogen. Fear-mongering can start pointless wars, and the truth is that we can see how box knives can be as weapons of mass destruction. Low pressure hydrogen tanks are being used now. The fact is we need nuke and fossil, we can't function without it; we don't need hydrogen ... yet. It is the most abundant fuel in the universe: it can work as an economic base.

I am willing to listen to any ideas you have, and even buy into them prior to investigation, regarding a nuke economy. I am not being cleaver, I am really curious as I have simply never thought of it.


Seriously,
Aristophanes

[Aethelwulffe]

How pray tell is hydrogen an abundant fuel? You must crack it out to get any here on earth. As for "low pressure" hydrogen tanks, what are you talking about? Hydrogen is either a cryofuel (liquid at a very very low temperature in tanks that must be kept heavily insulated but constantly gas off as they warm) or is a very very non-dense gas that cannot be contained in any sort of reasonable sized fuel container (unless you are in a blimp). It is a storage medium, not an energy source. Period. As for fuel cells, they are not impractical at all, they are simply costly.
As far as other factors, a typical nuclear plant produces about 18gwh. That is equal to the annual output of 1184 wind turbines in location such as Wichita or Corpus Christi. It is equal to the output of 2617 large turbines in Chicago. Some areas, you just can't use them.
The average wind farm right now is under 20 turbines.

[tinhorn]

Oh for Crisake, hear the words "visit your third grade English teacher for writing lessons".

Ya gotta admit, Jim, that was funny as hell.

As soon as I have all the answers, I'll let you guys know. Until then, I'm glad to have such a diverse group to learn from. Personally, I think nuclear is the way to go - it's too bad uninformed (or blatantly antisocial) "activists" are taken at face value. Yeah, it's nasty stuff. Yeah, we can deal with that. Hell, electricity can be nasty, too, if you touch it, but my home is FULL of wires. Gasoline is dangerous as hell, but every day clueless teenyboppers handle thousands of gallons of it.

Regarding birds vs. windmills - it was decided on another forum that only the slow and dullwitted ones would fall victim, so overall, it's good for the species to cull the dullards.

[the1much]

first,,,doesnt the water ONLY protect for the short term?,, and i didnt say you didnt know,,what i said was there are no facts behind it,, only opinion,,,,and i am not a rail worker,,,it would be a "half owner" of the calias branch railroad.
and ya,,since ya put it that way,,a link would be just a waste of time,,,,and i think i would look more towards facts,, not a students thesis or their opinion in lecture form,,,,,like i said,,,there is no difference in how the #'s are thrown out there except 1 side is on the + side by far,, and the other on the - side,,,,now for put downs since thats seems to be the way you wanna go,,,
and i have no "political" mess goin on in my head,,,trust me,,,,im so far from political its funny,,,,i dont do politics,,,never have never will,, and i dont do propaganda from ANYONE,,,so get the usual " oh the politics have got ya scared" crap comeback,,,,it doesnt work with me.
and i know all bout Chernobyl ,,and how it was so exaggerated,,and ive seen the "today" reality,,,and i never once brought them up,,or 3 mile,,,i brought up the statistics,,and there isnt any arguing with the math,, you can do it on paper,,or get 1 of ya students too . its like all things,,,once the #'s start multiplying,,then theres a problem.,,,,and why you so stuck on an energy source that we all know ,,,even ya students,, could potentially kill thousands,, when theres a safer way??
and you keep on this ,,"new technology" kick,,,,well,,,,look at the stealth bomber,,look at a WW1 vintage plane,,,,big difference huh?,,look hard,,,,,now tell me which 1 is safer when ya computer bluescreens and IT no longer flies the plane.
i still think the only way to progress,, is to do it in a way that it doesnt harm people or the earth,,,,and when your talking about dangerous material,,,there is ALWAYS a chance for a very bad "killoff" ,,,,its funny that a person that shouts the loudest about how smart he is,,,,thinks in such simple manners,,to even think that you can bury anything,, and it will always be safe there,,is too simple to be a person of your high status,,,,,,,now because you know a little bout nuclear energy,, you think its the "way to go" ,,, well,,,,,i dont want my kids having to figure out what to do with our "dumps" because its making them all have 3 legs and 1 eye.,,,there are multitudes of SAFE ways,,( ask ya students,,they can look it up fer ya) to produce energy,,,,to do it any other way is just puttin off the burden to our grandchildren.,,,,and thats why i think nuclear energy suks< see you did change my mind,,now i dont even think it should be used at all.


although 10,000 pounds have been released into the atmosphere from weapons tests in the last 50 years enough by his estimate to kill everyone on earth several thousand times.<<<<< now how are you so SURE that all that crap up there hasnt harmed us,,,,,it seems theres alot of bad diseases out there that growing faster then our population,,,,,,,but i bet ya got a doc in that class room that says all this cancer or others are caused by smoking or whatever,,,,,,,,( even though we all know most are genetic passed down to us,,,,hmmmm)
see your # is 1 sided,,,your quoting a dude that was to the FAR side,,,,,the last thing i saw on the discovery channel<<gotta watch cause i aint to smat on reedin,,,,showed ALOT of problems caused by the fallout from that testing,,,in fact,,,aint the tax payers paying the families of them poor dudes that were there?
see,,,its easy to pick apart crap,,,,,but to be open minded, and FACTUAL in your "opinion" takes a more smartah person den me
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, next time you put down a maine railworker,,,,,,,think bout how many stupid@ss teachers would die if it wasnt for them "dumb workers",,,,,,,,im true yankee dude,,,so we'll end this now,,,i actually thought youd have more of a head on ya shoulders then you've shown,,,but then again,, im usually way wrong ;)
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,wowz,,,look at all those red squiggly lines,,,,id fix it,,but then that would be like cheating from my students papers,,and i just cant figure out how this spillchecka werx,,,hehe ;)

[the1much]

and ya tinz,,,that was funny,,,,even funnier,,,,i only got to 2cnd grade :(

[Aristophanes]

I was hoping for a discussion on a nuke economy. I will gladly accept (for the sake of finding out what I want to know) that nuke is the only option(THIS IS NOT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, I KNOW). I do not ask you this question as an insult or with any intention of a jab. I really think that you may have considered this and may have an answer: How do we create a nuke economy? Do you have a plan that I can sell to the other nonbelievers? Is this us just spending time jawing? The last I checked this was an oligarchy, we better find a way of making everyone a little money and the rich a lot. If this is not your thing, cool. Finding and spinning stats and research is more fun to most and I will be the first to admit that I am as guilty as the rest of having bias (I AM NOT SAYING THAT YOU ARE SPINNING). If we were committed to making nuke work and I was as invested as you are in it, where to we start?


To save time I have typed in upper case after your comments. again my only interest is your take on a nuke economy.


How pray tell is hydrogen an abundant fuel? ...... WATER
You must crack it out to get any here on earth. ..TIDAL, SOLAR, NUKE & WIND

As for "low pressure" hydrogen tanks, what are you talking about?

Hydrogen is either a cryofuel (liquid at a very very low temperature in tanks that must be kept heavily insulated but constantly gas off as they warm) or is a very very non-dense gas that cannot be contained in any sort of reasonable sized fuel container (unless you are in a blimp).... HYDROGEN (NON FUEL CELL CARS APPEAR IN CALIFORNIA & ARIZONA SHELL HAS HYDROGEN FUEL STATION IN BOTH PLACES

It is a storage medium, not an energy source.... AGREED, AS IS OIL COAL, WIND AND (AND PLEASE DON'T MAKE ME ARGUE IT) NUKE


Period. As for fuel cells, they are not impractical at all, they are simply costly....
(CURRENTLY) HUGE CARBON FOOTPRINT IN MANUFACTURING, HENCE DEFEATS PURPOSE

As far as other factors, a typical nuclear plant produces about 18gwh. That is equal to the annual output of 1184 wind turbines in location such as Wichita or Corpus Christi. It is equal to the output of 2617 large turbines in Chicago. Some areas, you just can't use them.
The average wind farm right now is under 20 turbines. I AM FINE WITH THOSE STATS, NOW TURN IT INTO AN ECONOMY. I BELIEVE IT CAN BE DONE BUT I DON'T SEE HOW. CREATE JOBS FOR ME.

Aristophanes

[Aethelwulffe]

the1much,

I didn't invite you to view my thesis...which is a scientific paper by the way, and one that was quite harshly reviewed. I invited you to view lesson plans on the science as it is currently understood.
Next, I have not made mention of new technology in the light of making future developments, only of the CURRENT state of technology. With your statements that you only look at "facts" you allude to the assumption that I do not, and that any data that I cite (and as a scientist I cite my sources) cannot be use to form educated opinions and is not based on observed phenomenon and interperted data. Since you do not present any data for me, and you do not look or even consider looking at the data I present, then we are not conducting a forum...you are just preaching. I do not go for the preaching thing, I engage in this so that I can have my own opinions challenged by the presentation of data for me to consider in light of the data I present in a debate. That is not happening with you, so I will refrain to bother reading your posts.

[the1much]

hahaha,,,,ya..o.k. thank-you,,,,and i still might send ya a x-mas card :D

[Aethelwulffe]

How do we create a nuke economy? Do you have a plan that I can sell to the other nonbelievers? Is this us just spending time jawing? The last I checked this was an oligarchy, we better find a way of making everyone a little money and the rich a lot. If this is not your thing, cool. Finding and spinning stats and research is more fun to most and I will be the first to admit that I am as guilty as the rest of having bias (I AM NOT SAYING THAT YOU ARE SPINNING). If we were committed to making nuke work and I was as invested as you are in it, where to we start?
Aristophanes

No, no spin, just making the argument that Nuke is not what some folks think it is.
We have an infrastructure that supports nuclear as an option right now. We are using it as a mainstream power source right now. Some countries it is the primary source. As far as the politics, they must change obviously. We can't be treating material that can be 95% recycled into cladded reprocessed fuel as waste and hauling it around. That is dumb. We need better political options for using the PUREX process that allow transparency for all nations to see that the process isn't used for enrichment, and to allow all to benefit from the reprocessing.
Using Nuclear on the road? If you go all nuclear, you have a direct step for EPRI batteries on the road. Obviously, a social plan would require a shift from sprawl to centralization, and the obvious requirement for rail to be the ultimate primary transport. This is most difficult here in the US. This is something that has to be pushed with a social program of zoning and the like. It will happen eventually anyway.
"
How pray tell is hydrogen an abundant fuel? ...... WATER"

Water is a fuel? No. Water is a solvent, but not a fuel. To elements as you know make up a water molecule. This is an extremely well bonded little molecule. It releases a lot of power when it is made, and takes an equally great amount of power to break it apart. Methane, where we get almost all of our hydrogen, only takes about 1/3 of the energy to crack. Hydrogen from natural gas isn't where we want to be though, is it? We need to crack water right? Well that has an efficiency of about 64% to do. Doing a simpler reaction to store electricity (using electrolyte acid in a battery) is more efficient. Total power plant masses, not to mention road safety currently leans more to the "plug in" car crowds ideas than anything else.


"You must crack it out to get any here on earth. ..TIDAL, SOLAR, NUKE & WIND"
Agreed. But you need not crack it twice. I am saying as a storage medium it IS less efficient. We use it in rockets because of how energetic the reaction is, and it's fuel density. This lets us get a LOT of thrust very quickly in a rocket, even though it isn't all that efficient. In that situation, rapid acceleration is the key to efficiency. Quite different reason for using LOX/LH.

As for "low pressure" hydrogen tanks, what are you talking about?

"Hydrogen is either a cryofuel (liquid at a very very low temperature in tanks that must be kept heavily insulated but constantly gas off as they warm) or is a very very non-dense gas that cannot be contained in any sort of reasonable sized fuel container (unless you are in a blimp).... HYDROGEN (NON FUEL CELL CARS APPEAR IN CALIFORNIA & ARIZONA SHELL HAS HYDROGEN FUEL STATION IN BOTH PLACES"

I know this well. That does not mean that it is a particularly great storage medium compared to the current generation of batteries.

"It is a storage medium, not an energy source.... AGREED, AS IS OIL COAL, WIND AND (AND PLEASE DON'T MAKE ME ARGUE IT) NUKE"

True, but we have enough radioactinides here on Earth in easy reach to last about 5 billion years. This equates to the life expectancy of the sun.


"Period. As for fuel cells, they are not impractical at all, they are simply costly....
(CURRENTLY) HUGE CARBON FOOTPRINT IN MANUFACTURING, HENCE DEFEATS PURPOSE" excellent point. I don't know about defeats, but certainly a concern

As far as other factors, a typical nuclear plant produces about 18gwh. That is equal to the annual output of 1184 wind turbines in location such as Wichita or Corpus Christi. It is equal to the output of 2617 large turbines in Chicago. Some areas, you just can't use them.
The average wind farm right now is under 20 turbines. I AM FINE WITH THOSE STATS, NOW TURN IT INTO AN ECONOMY. I BELIEVE IT CAN BE DONE BUT I DON'T SEE HOW. CREATE JOBS FOR ME.

Nuke economy? As I said, it is already part of the economy. You could regulate it into being the energy monopoly. There are plenty of Nuke associations that have plans and contingencies that you could read up on online, but none of it is much of a stretch. Infrastructure supports it much better than it does wind or solar. If all we had was wind and solar, and we were each alloted 1kw a day energy, I could deal with that. Nuke will be there however. Science does not support stopping it's use. I am pretty sure it will be used and it will grow ever more important.

Thanks for your feedback.

[the1much]

here comes "hydrogen is the most abundant element on earth,,therefore, the most abundant fuel which partially sustains itself by producing water" spiel ,,,foolish greenies,,,hehe ;)

[Meanz Beanz]

Nuclear has been demonised and is widely misunderstood. I think that we will come to realise that radioactivity is not all bad, believe it or not. I have read of one study that suggests populations living in areas of higher background radio activity are healthier... not an expected find. We live on a radioactive planet and to a degree it is a part of our environment, it seems that, like most things, a little is good, alot is bad. Some where around 55 people died from Chernobyl, that is all in what was a really bad event. Animals are living in the dead zone quite well, scientists are studying them and finding higher levels of radio activity but they seem to be finding less damage than they expected. Oddly the event might yet turn out to be net positive, by that I mean the lessons learned could be very constructive.

Nuclear has had allot of bad press, I would suggest mostly born of competitive pressure. Under these circumstances its hard to form an objective view of the real risks.... the French seem to have managed quite well.

Do you know that coal power stations pump out more radio active material than Nuclear... or so I am told.

There are greater evils than nuclear, I think the area is also ripe for technical advances in shall we say `materials handling`... it would not surprise me if we advance in this area somehow.

I'm not pro, not anti and mostly uninformed :D like most people I suspect... after all this one "is rocket science"!

If hot Russian chicks on motor bikes do it for you; Kid of Speed - Riding the Dead Zone (http://www.kiddofspeed.com/). A look at the Chernobyl area.

[Meanz Beanz]

here comes "hydrogen is the most abundant element on earth,,therefore, the most abundant fuel which partially sustains itself by producing water" spiel ,,,foolish greenies,,,hehe ;)

As I understand it and simply, the trouble with hydrogen is that it takes energy to make it, its effectively a storage medium, a battery, not a source.... we still need a source.

[the1much]

i think we need to look into this "sausage" energy,,hehe :D

[the1much]

we did some things with uranium and mice,when i worked at the Jackson Lab,,,,was skeery,,,then they injected that other mouse with something radioactive (was before i worked there) and it glowed pretty good,,,hehe,,,but he was also pretty sick,,,,they kept the "string" going for many generations,,,,always had the same ending,,poor mouse ;) but we used to have to always have the warning badges,,,and a geiger counter was on 24/7,,,used to have all the stupid "shower" drills and crap,,,what a bunch of hoopla,,hehe ;)

[Meanz Beanz]

Then you run into something like this...

http://uk.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=84561

and think hmmmm..... wouldn't it be great if, I wonder if there's a gotya?

[the1much]

hehe,,,do they run props or water jets on that car?,,hehe ;)

[Aethelwulffe]

Water is a waste product of a reaction of hydrogen and oxygen, not a fuel. That car has the same system I built into the picnic baot I built. It is a Hydride-fueled car that uses water in the reaction. It is what is called a "hydrogen on demand" system. In boats it is nifty. The system we used (in conjunction with a fuel cell stack and an asymetrical wound motor, controller etc) takes borax, uses it in a reaction to create hydrogen as it is needed. Later you can (guess what) plug the system in, reverse the process and create boarax again, re-cycling it. Basically, all it is is another battery. The cool part is that your range is only limited as to how much borax you can carry. In a car, that stuff gets heavy, but a boat can carry all the gear neccessary for the system. You don't need a humoungumugigantic super frigidare cryotank full of highly dangerous liquid hydrogen. Just a little bitty one, and a whole bunch of TIDE laundry detergent (well pure powdered borax). Yep, that is the catch. It doesn't run on water anymore than a car that uses water in the coolant system does. They are full of poo and should be shot for screwing with peoples minds when they are so full of mis-information anyway.

[Aethelwulffe]

Coal plant radiation...Yes, I have seen that cited in a hundred places. A typical coal plant does apparently emit 100 (I have seen 100 stated too) times more radiation than a nuke plant...which is to say just about nothing. Coal is not exatly pure stuff. All the stuff in the Cretaceous peat bogs had heavy metals in it when it died, and it still has that stuff now.
Radium, BTW, which is the most abundant surface radioactinide, is many times more toxic to humans than plutonium. We used to use it in paint....

[Meanz Beanz]

They are full of poo and should be shot for screwing with peoples minds when they are so full of mis-information anyway.

Hmmm yes... they say in the video all you need is the water! Sounds to good... don't it?

[Meanz Beanz]

Coal plant radiation...Yes, I have seen that cited in a hundred places. A typical coal plant does apparently emit 100 (I have seen 100 stated too) times more radiation than a nuke plant...which is to say just about nothing. Coal is not exatly pure stuff. All the stuff in the Cretaceous peat bogs had heavy metals in it when it died, and it still has that stuff now.
Radium, BTW, which is the most abundant surface radioactinide, is many times more toxic to humans than plutonium. We used to use it in paint....

I'm never sure if they are comparing leakage or waste.... thats never made clear. Is it possible that over time a coal station does out do a nuclear station in the waste department?

[the1much]

i wonder if you could do your laundry in ya gas tank?,,,,hehe ;)
niterz Beanzy, Mas., everyone else ,,,,,imma go to sleep and dream of my new venture,,,"suds stations" ,,hehe:D ;)

[Meanz Beanz]

You do that Jim... sleep well.

[tinhorn]

That biker chick was cute! Did you read what she wrote about the protective cover?!

The plant was closed down for good in 2000. They must build a new sarcophagus soon, because the original one was hastily constructed and is disintegrating.

Only a very small amount of the radiation inside of there had so far actually escaped. More then 90% is still under sarcophagus. I heard with all the concrete they put down, the construction became heavy.. some day it may fall down, get in subterranean waters and leave Europe with no water.

[Meanz Beanz]

I think her father is a nuclear tech/scientist or some such thing. She is quite possibly well placed to know. Thank goodness Russia is make a $ these days and can afford to fix it up :D

[brian eiland]

Water is a waste product of a reaction of hydrogen and oxygen, not a fuel. That car has the same system I built into the picnic baot I built. It is a Hydride-fueled car that uses water in the reaction. It is what is called a "hydrogen on demand" system. In boats it is nifty. The system we used (in conjunction with a fuel cell stack and an asymetrical wound motor, controller etc) takes borax, uses it in a reaction to create hydrogen as it is needed. Later you can (guess what) plug the system in, reverse the process and create boarax again, re-cycling it. Basically, all it is is another battery. The cool part is that your range is only limited as to how much borax you can carry. In a car, that stuff gets heavy, but a boat can carry all the gear neccessary for the system. You don't need a humoungumugigantic super frigidare cryotank full of highly dangerous liquid hydrogen. Just a little bitty one, and a whole bunch of TIDE laundry detergent (well pure powdered borax). Yep, that is the catch. It doesn't run on water anymore than a car that uses water in the coolant system does. They are full of poo and should be shot for screwing with peoples minds when they are so full of mis-information anyway.
Hydrogen on Demand
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=211523&postcount=3
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10622

[Meanz Beanz]

Thx Brian...

[Aethelwulffe]

Coal plants, clean coal plants and the mining associated with them is far far more toxic and much more higher volume than the same industry as it supports the production of electricity from nuclear power. Citing reported statistics: "Waste created by a typical 500-megawatt coal plant includes more than 125000 tons of ash and 193000 tons of sludge from the smokestack scrubber each year."

Nuclear plants release no (measurable) radioactive material into the environment. The whole idea is to keep it in. Here are the stats for what we have released from coal plants into the atmosphere as ash that settled onto the surrounding countryside:

U.S. release (from combustion of 111,716 million tons):
Uranium: 145,230 tons (containing 1031 tons of uranium-235)

Thorium: 357,491 tons

Worldwide release (from combustion of 637,409 million tons):

Uranium: 828,632 tons (containing 5883 tons of uranium-235)

Thorium: 2,039,709 tons

This it taken from a government study that is researching the best ways to refine uranium and other metals (mercury, aluminum, lead, and lots of others) that are present in coal ash.
Mind you, coal scrubbers now remove 95%+ percent of the ash from the exhaust, but it is placed into ponds at the plant, not contained as radioactive material. You WILL get a good reading at the average coal power plant, and if coal plants had to folow the same guidelines for radioactive material release that nukes do, they could not operate, and everyone there would need to wear dosimeters. Imagine taking a mountain of coal and reducing it to ash. Think about what you will find in that pile of ash after it is reduced in that manner.
I'm not even going to start on bituminous coal.

[Aethelwulffe]

Yeah, good links Brian. I had not seen these guys before, but I think a customer of mine has.

[safewalrus]

With some seven nuclear plants within two miles of me neither of my two heads have ever complained - don't need any lights either - the way we glow!!

[the1much]

i'd rather be next to the plant where they have all kinds of watching eyes,,,,,unlike 2/3rds of their dumps

[Aethelwulffe]

I'd like to hear what plants in the US or Europe someone considers to be sub-standard and why, and exactly...in engineering terms... how radiation of radioactive material can/will escape from it. Those that would like to believe they have a case for this, in all the years of yelling "deathtrap!" have yet to provide a scenario that can lead to this.

Kind of like any line of ignorance, superstition, or fearmongering, you can tell all the world that ghosts exist, you can get your cousin to agree that you all saw one, but you still cannot produce one or come up with either evidence or even a plausible testable theory based in other science of what one might be.

For someone to prove they have ground to stand on, all they have to do is provide directions/map to that ground. The directions will gladly be followed and the landmarks documented. If the ground is there, you will have gained a dedicated convert to your side. This attitude has altered my life several times. A successful year is one in which one of my more basic assumptions about the universe I live is is challenged and debunked. I can then feel like I have learned and grown. I feel like while I will never achieve much on the grand scheme, I will still have the pride of knowing I always moved forward.

[masalai]

To my mind, it is not the plant per-se, but the disposal afterwards of active waste products....

[tinhorn]

I'd like to hear what plants in the US or Europe someone considers to be sub-standard and why, and exactly...in engineering terms... how radiation of radioactive material can/will escape from it. Those that would like to believe they have a case for this, in all the years of yelling "deathtrap!" have yet to provide a scenario that can lead to this.


I'm afraid that's not the point. Anarchists hiding behind green banners and feel-good smokescreens stir up the populace with their fearmongering, and then tie up projects with frivolous lawsuits. I've seen it even on a local small-town level. Some local prick real estate attorney (with a wife on the city council and tens of millions of dollars of properties) has created a high-sounding activist group in my small town that can be counted on to oppose any significant housing development here. Step back, and it's easy to see the con job, but if I golfed with this dude, attended the same Rotary Club meetings, and got a few good investment tips from him, I'd probably get myself sucked into his ********, too. (Funny, his wife claimed to know nothing about "his" investments, and so could be trusted to vote PURELY in the best interests of the city. Hahahahaha! And people BOUGHT it!)

It's all smoke and mirrors, friend. Smoke and mirrors.

[tinhorn]

To my mind, it is not the plant per-se, but the disposal afterwards of active waste products....

Yup, more fear-mongering. My region was one of three finalists several years ago for a long-term storage facility. I got involved, and could find nothing wrong with the proposed storage here. (Deep basalt tunnels, backfilled with concrete as the waste was stored.) A geologist I chatted with at one meeting disagreed with me - he said that the salt flats were better suited. He said they were self-healing. A tunnel would close in on itself, sealing the waste forever.

I think there are safe methods of long-term storage available to us, but then if we actually RESOLVED the dilemma, what would college professors and unemployable activists do?

[the1much]

the problem with the waste,,,is your counting on a private company to do it the right way,,,kinda like the counting on the oil industry to do their job right.,,,,in maine when i opened my boat shop,,you have to hire a company ( there was 3 in maine) to remove your waste,,,but,,,,,the state also made you sign a piece of paper saying that if the company (which has been approved by the state) didnt dispose of the material the right way,,,and was later found,,,that i had to pay my part(x number of $'s for every drum) for the clean up,,,,which,,,was WAY higher then to have it taken away in the first place,,,,but anywho,,,,,why do ya think the state would do that?,, think they had confidence in a company to do it right,,,and didnt want to pay the bill, for approving a dumb@ss private company?.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,same thing goes for nuclear waste to,,,,,a privately owned company is in charge,,,,,,and we all know a company wouldnt take short cuts to boost profits.,,,,,,,,,just like tinz council woman making some extra income for her husband.now dont worry,,,,agreeing that companies DO take short cuts wont mean your in the fear from all the mongering group,,hehe ;)

[tinhorn]

That's a valid point, alright. I'd have faith in the military after seeing the job they've done across the state line destroying old, unstable mustard gas and all kinds of scary nasty stuff stored barely underground since WWII. They've had to work with leaking containers and all manner of potential disasters. But I don't think we want the military moving into civilian ventures.

I live near a "nuclear reservation". Don't know what all secret stuff they do there, but it was where research took place for the first atomic bombs. I would trust those government contractors to move the waste. Heck, those companies deal with it every day, and I bet they'd be under close scrutiny every inch of the trip. You'd certainly need escorts, so it wouldn't be like one truck driver, or one dispatcher, could pull a fast one. In the 20+ years I've lived here, I've read of a few minor incidents, but never read of anything endangering the public. And the transport plans of 20 years ago called for massive, indestructible containment packages.

Damn. Mustard gas, unstable secret chemical weapons, and nuclear materials. And I'm downwind from both sites. I'd maybe get nervous if I thought about this more.

[tinhorn]

in maine when i opened my boat shop,,you have to hire a company ( there was 3 in maine) to remove your waste

You had WASTE?! Tsk, tsk. I just made weights. Y'know, a plastic bucket full of resin and gelcoat and small 'glass scraps to put in the back of pickups in winter. I never had any waste. Even acetone turns into a solid when it absorbs enough catalyzed resin, and is the perfect addition to weights.

Sometimes the pickup weights market would nosedive and I'd have to dispose of surplus inventory. But there was no problem throwing inert plastic products into the dumpster.

[the1much]

the scary thing tinz,,,is they DO move it by truck,,,1 truck at a time,,no escort,,they TRY to do it by rail because its safer,,,but,, 90% of the time they move it by truck,,,everyday trucks,,nothing special bout them,,and no escorts,,,,,,they did a discovery channel thing on it a few months ago.
and i used to get "picked up" once a month,,,and always had a barrel each, and starting on 2cnd barrel by the time they emptied me.,,,,i had a little too much to use as weights,,,,,that and was "watched" all the time,,,,so it was jus easier doing it the RIGHT way,,hehe ;)

[the1much]

it isnt the resins,,,once the resin is kicked off,,it isnt hazardous anymore,,,only if its not kicked,,,,,the waste was your paint and reducers,,,,which had to be separated,,,paint in 1 55gal barrel,,reducer in the other,,,then 1 for used acetone,,,then pay someone to take it,,and worry bout how much its gonna cost ya in the future.

[Aethelwulffe]

I'm afraid that's not the point. Anarchists hiding behind green banners and feel-good smokescreens stir up the populace with their fearmongering, and then tie up projects with frivolous lawsuits. I've seen it even on a local small-town level. Some local prick real estate attorney (with a wife on the city council and tens of millions of dollars of properties) has created a high-sounding activist group in my small town that can be counted on to oppose any significant housing development here. Step back, and it's easy to see the con job, but if I golfed with this dude, attended the same Rotary Club meetings, and got a few good investment tips from him, I'd probably get myself sucked into his ********, too. (Funny, his wife claimed to know nothing about "his" investments, and so could be trusted to vote PURELY in the best interests of the city. Hahahahaha! And people BOUGHT it!)

It's all smoke and mirrors, friend. Smoke and mirrors.

What do you mean "it's not the point"? I was making a comment abouthow anyone that wants to give an example of exactly how some particular nuclear power plant can go all melty...or exactly where a ghost hides during the day will prove either or both concepts.
What does your statement have to do with my post?

As far as the applicable comment to my last

"To my mind, it is not the plant per-se, but the disposal afterwards of active waste products...." you can refer to several posts concerning fuel recycling, but I will re-iterate here. Spent fuel recycling is a process by which the high-level "waste" is re-processed back into fuel. There is no such thing as "high-level waste". There is only "un-reprocessed fuel". When you have spent fuel, you can recover 95% of it's volume bck into usable fuel. The other 5% has actually been lost due to matter-energy conversion. Why do we not do this? Because the same process that can let a nuclear power plant run on a single re-processed batch of fuel for a century is the same that is used to enrich material for nuclear weapons. Since we have no international standard that will allow for re-processing, and treaties banning such reactors, we have this mess of nuclear waste that for POLITICAL REASONS ONLY we ship around on RARE occasions. Funny thing is, folks that have absolutely no real engineering knowlege on the subject (funny, can anyone here tell me what a reactor basal group is, or the difference between a rickover and a RBMK?) have such strong opinions that they do not want shaken. They could at any time spend an hour in Wikipedia actually learning about reactors themselves, and not about dogma that others who cannot aswer simple questions about nuclear science have espoused about reactors.

Want an example of someone that had totally uninformed opinions and yet eventually changed them? Try a founding father of Greenpeace:

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/14/AR2006041401209.html

Low level waste, BTW, are items and parts used in the "radioactive environment" in the reactor...which is not to say that they are necessarily radioactive at all. How radioactive is low level waste? LESS SO THAN THE ASH EXHAUST FROM A COAL POWER PLANT! If coal plants had to follow the same guidelines as Nuke, THEY COULDN'T EXIST! They emit MEGATONS of the same material that nukes ship out in a single tiny barrel to go to a special incinerator. All the real nuclear waste barrels ever produced fit inside the perimenter of a football field, and much of that is re-processable fuel. Coal plants on the other had, as their fuel contains 1 ppm uranium, 2.5 ppm thorium and lots and lots of heavy metals, are emitting HIGH LEVEL WASTE! ATOMIZING IT FOR YOUR PLEASURE! I live next to a coal plant. Aside from the barge traffic and the soot and acid rain, it's disgusting with all the settling ponds and crap. I would trade it for a nuclear plant any day.

Want an example of idiocy? You will find articles like this:

http://archive.greenpeace.org/nuclear/reactor/turkey/index.html

It will go on and on about how nukes are an immenient danger to humanity. These guys have had two generations to show just how this can happen. They could easily get the power of mainstream science on their side if they could just do this. All they have to do is show us a diagram of a particular plant in existence, show us how it can emit all this dangerous radiation or radioactive material, and then we well rally to their side...immediately. Instead, since they are not sharing this knowledge of exactly how one of these "disasters" can take place. They like the fact that Chernobyl went up- a reactor built in the earliest era behind the iron curtain with absolutely no sort of safety engineering, budget, trained workers, or proceedural transparency. They do not ever mention that it took 20 years to kill 32 people, mostly firefighters that did not know they were in a reactor chamber, ordered in by soviet politicos. Three mile island broke down, cause it had design issues, but it could not have ever released any material. Modern reactors have clad fuel or a bebblebed reactor system, and so many redundancies that if something goes wrong, the reactor CAN'T stay at critical mass. You could not get the thing to melt down if you got in there with a sledge hammer and a shovel and TRIED to screw it up.
It may all be smoke and mirrors, because that is the only tactic that works with joe average.

[Aethelwulffe]

acetone does not turn into a solid. It is a volatile. It is just evaporating.

Might I suggest switching to denatured alcohol for some uses involving skin? Othewise, evaporation of acetone is not a big thing. It has a half-life of 22 days in the atmosphere. You only have to report a spill of 5000 lb or more. Many folks assume it is some really bad stuff due to it being so good at what it does. I used to. But if you don't huff a lot of it, it's no biggie.

You can send your cured plastics to a waste-to-energy plant. They emit CO2, but they are much cleaner than coal!

[the1much]

hehehe,,,,see,,,,proves my point on "sides" 1 side WAY to the left,,,points fingers at the FAR right,,hehe :D
until 1 side says,,ya,,they got a point there,,and the other side says,,ya,,you have a point too,,,,will there EVER be a solution,,,hehehehe ;)

[the1much]

acetone evaporates,,but also seeps into your skin and goes straight to your liver,,,,denatured isnt AS bad,,,but is still not good for your body,,,all these things need to be used with gloves and EYE protection.,,, and denatured alcohol is the BEST thing to use to wipe down ya boat with,,,and to remove overspray on new paint.

[masalai]

The1, I am impressed.... I just hope your simplified presentation gets through to the simpletons on the left & right? - - - Alas I am still inhibited in the "point giving category" ? ? ? ? ? ? :D

[the1much]

mornin Mas.,,and we can only hope,,hehe ;)

[masalai]

Nup, still only hope - though I think she left in a huff....

[the1much]

ya my simplicity usually pisses off those teacher wannabe types,,,,is awful a stooopid guy like me can do that huh,,hehe ;)

[Aethelwulffe]

In a tribal culture, there is "them" and "us"... Reality is, there are no sides. There is the path that will eventually be taken, and the process that was used to get there. IF that is going to be a concensus decision, there has to be real understanding and decision of the need. Once that is in place, someone's philosophy about it is irrellevent. Philosophy and theology are small useless bits of trash mixed into reality.

I don't believe that anyone here is really interested in point-counterpoint with real data (a forum). I think I will bug out. You guys have a great weekend.

[the1much]

you have a great 1 too ;)
but.....the consensus ISNT what always happens,,,,,,look at taxes ,,do you want them as high as they are?,,i dont,,,and can probably come up with a few million others that dont,,,,,but they keep rising,,,,,,who's voting for the higher taxes?

[masalai]

More change afoot? http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/12/2301885.htm?section=justin

Scientists are growing increasingly concerned for the future of the huge Wilkins ice shelf that joins on to the Antarctic coast.

The latest satellite images suggest the ice shelf is disintegrating rapidly, and is now connected to the Antarctic mainland by a fairly small bridge of ice.

However, the images show that the bridge itself is about to go, with cracks appearing and ice floes breaking off.

[the1much]

the "warming" is all in our head ;)

[Meanz Beanz]

No, the warming is real, the rest in your head :D:P

[the1much]

hahaha,,,mornin Beanzy hehe ;)

[masalai]

Afternoon Heinz, All who are still around or square - whatever? (Practising at staying politically neutral?)

[Pericles]

Brian,

It's all about percentages. The Wilkins Ice Shelf is 0.1% of the ice in Antarctica. A lump the size of Northern Ireland sound big, but it's only the six counties, not all of the island of Ireland.

http://icecap.us/index.php/go/joes-blog/wilkins_back_in_the_news/

http://icecap.us/index.php/go/joes-blog/wilkins_fracture_barely_a_blip_in_the_big_picture_as_antarctic_ice_already_/

http://icecap.us/index.php/go/joes-blog/the_wilkins_ice_shelf_con_job/

http://icecap.us/index.php/go/political-climate/misleading_reports_now_about_antarctica/

Remember all the nonsense about the NW Passage being free of ice and the North Pole just water.

http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/07/02/northwest-passage-still-impassable/

CO2 is a fertilizer, not a pollutant.

http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/06/08/surprise-earths-biosphere-is-booming-co2-the-cause/

If a decent piece of the ice shelf were to break off, perhaps a few dozen tugs could haul it to Oz and mine it for water. I see snow has fallen in Canberra. 10 inches of snow represents one inch of rain. How deep is Lake Burley?

Regards,

Perry

[masalai]

Thanks Per, Just ignor me, I only post stuff I feel may be of interest to you (news service) - no need to acknowledge.... Cheers

Oh, are you still designing and planning a build/buy? How are things progressing?

I generally chat with Heinz (Meanz Beanz) on the "Crude" thread and outlined my current position there minutes ago....

[Pericles]

The British summer has yet to arrive. http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/ukweather/#no_url

"Unveiling its long range forecast for the summer, the Met Office predicted this summer’s weather will follow a pattern of 'three fine days and a thunder storm’.

Summer 2008 to be hot and wet
Sunny days may be warmer than usual

After a heatwave and drought two years ago and then record rainfall and widespread flooding last year, this summer is predicted to return to a pattern of sunny spells then rain.

However with overall temperatures and rainfall expected to be higher than average, sunny days may be warmer than usual and rainy days wetter."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1583795/British-summer-2008-to-be-warmer-and-wetter.html

The Met Office is no longer fit for purpose, for two reasons. Sunspots do not figure in their calculations and because they employ John Mitchell, Chief Scientist of the Hadley Center.

http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=3234

Bookmark http://www.icecap.us/ (if you use Firefox).

Perry

[safewalrus]

Brian,

It's all about percentages. The Wilkins Ice Shelf is 0.1% of the ice in Antarctica. A lump the size of Northern Ireland sound big, but it's only the six counties, not all of the island of Ireland.



The SIX COUNTIES IS NORTHERN IRELAND! the rest is Eire, different country, get it right Peri, you're usually pretty good at these things:rolleyes:

[masalai]

You are BOTH missing the point.... IT is STILL winter here and ice is melting - - WTF - -?????
If sea ice melts in WINTER then global warming is difficult to deny - It means the waters are warm, and warm waters make the air warmer which could lead to melting of the ice-cap resting on Antarctic land..... Shhhhhiiiieeeeesssshhhhh?

Still not a point proven, just something to watch and be aware of.... for future consideration.

[safewalrus]

I ain't interested in the point I'm still sorting out the geography - which part you in, Tassy? The only other ice you got is in little cubes mate!

[masalai]

Antarctica, in one word, further south me old lost walrus for a mate?

[Pericles]

Safe,

You and I know what and where N. Ireland is, but Brian is Australian. He opens Google to look at Ireland and just sees the island. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland BTW Brian lives in Buderim, Queensland.

Elizabethan plantations, Cromwell, the Battle of the Boyne and King William III, are not part of the natural history of Australia. Abel Tasman, Captain Cook and the umpteen fleets of transported prisoners are the stuff of legend in Oz.:D :D :D :D Hence the explanation.

Brian, where's the melting? "By the way, UAH MSU showed among the past 30 Junes, June 2008 was the third coldest south of the Antarctic Circle. The Antarctic continent saw its third coldest June in 30 years, with temperatures averaging -1.53C cooler than the seasonal norm. Portions of Antarctica south of Australia were as much as 5.5 C (9.9 degrees Fahrenheit) colder than seasonal norms for the first month of winter. The low yesterday at the South Pole Amundsen Scott AFB was -95F."

http://www.icecap.us/

Sounds like brass monkey weather down there.:D :D :D :D

Regards,

Perry

[masalai]

Not quite Per, I use google earth and zoom down to see who is chatting over the back fences and where the IRA are hiding their "not now needed guns" hehehe

I don't keep a catalogue but someone, if I recall correctly said the "smaller half is melting and the other half is adding to the ice depth at a greater rate.

- Safie be warned as Antarctica may tip over and form the north pole which is really at the south (just to confuse Safie... so he doesn't panic too much)

[safewalrus]

Ain't panicking Mas, too bloody confused for that!

Per that may be true, but remember both the US and Aus have been UK penal colonies (like the UK is now for Bin Liner and Spewtin) so we shipped 'colonists' to both places -many Irish 'volunteered' to become colonists, addmittingly that was before the split and it became two counties or B.Liar sold the Prods down the river with 'is Good Friday Agreement - nothing good in that unless you were IRA

[Pericles]

Whenever the awesomeness of the oncoming 30 years of coldness chill my thoughts, I take comfort within the warm cab of a steam locomotive. Here's a great site to bookmark and follow. Easter 2009 is the forecast for completion. Go to Changelog for updates. http://whr.bangor.ac.uk/

I've previously mentioned the Met Office economies with the truth. http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=3234 Here's another example. http://www.paulmacrae.com/?p=74

And now, back to the coalhole.:P :P :P

Perry

[safewalrus]

aaye bu where willyou get the coal from?

[Pericles]

Safe,

As a former employee of the London & Southern Regional Sales Office of the erstwhile National Coal Board from January 1962 - May 1965 and holder of not only Part I, but also Part II of City & Guilds Subject 188, Production, Distribution & Utilisation of Solid Fuel, (Coal) I believe that I am qualified to answer your question. Extracting British coal at a rate of 100 million tons per year there are enough proven reserves to last for 300 years. What we do not have are safe methods to win that coal. Robot miners will be needed for the task and so we shall have to wait for the inventors to get cracking.

This pit had family connections. http://www.dmm.org.uk/colliery/w014.htm

Perry

[the1much]

isnt it like japan or china that has 6000 deaths a year in the govern. owned mines?,,,they only have to pay the families of the "murdered" miners their equivalent of u.s.$300 per death,,, so the govern. says its way cheaper to pay the small amount then to make the mines safer.

[safewalrus]

The problem being of course that a most all of our coal mines closed down some years ago we don't have any trained miners to go get the stuff -and in this country as that would mean actual work they wouldn't anyway - unless we employed a few from other parts of the world - of course there is still the School of Mines down in Camborne (Cornwall), possibly the most famous school of mines in the world (look out for arguments there) but of course that is 'hard rock' mining rather different to coal mining which tends to be soft or open cast! But still hey what do I know about it? I was banned at an early age from going anywhere near a coal mine so I ran away to sea -after all father knew the right people to ensure that ban stuck, which of course was why he imposed it -he knew the conditions -and your pit, marra!

[masalai]

Association with minors is sometimes illegal and called P, - Ped. - - Oh yes, - - - Pedestrians....

[Frosty]

A kid drowned in a hotel swimming pool in Pattaya oh 10 years ago. There was a bit of a cafuffle about it but the hotel agreed to pay the parents 200dollars.

They were happy with that settlement and accepted immediately!!!

[masalai]

Oh to be so content with what life dishes up as to be satisfied with $200????

[Guest625101138]

p.... of course there is still the School of Mines down in Camborne (Cornwall), possibly the most famous school of mines in the world (look out for arguments there) ...

I believe the people at the Colorado School of Mines would take exception to that!
http://www.mines.edu/all_about/history/briefhistory.html

Rick W.

[Frosty]

Oh to be so content with what life dishes up as to be satisfied with $200????

Oh to be so wise!!!!. If they had not --I strongly suspect they would have got nothing. They were probably aware of that, after all the kid was not staying in the hotel but lived nearby, if he was a poor swimmer where were the parents.

Its a cruel world you gotta look after your own stuff as Beanz would say.

[masalai]

This one is better.... http://www.wasm.curtin.edu.au/about/ :D:D:D:D - - - - - - - - - I, - - went to Curtin before it was called "Curtin".....

[safewalrus]

Yeah nice NEW mines! Camborne sent the instructors to teach your instructors! (just because we didn't have a school didn't mean we knew how to mine!)

When we first started mining in Cornwall the year ended in BC not AD like now and was counted downwards ('course us didn't know it then or care, still don't all that much!!)

[Pericles]

Back to the core of the thread, I see Queensland is a touch chilly.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24085970-952,00.html

Other parts of Australia have their nether regions frozen.
http://www.independentweekly.com.au/news/local/news/general/icy-wings-delay-planes/1228504.aspx

It has not, repeat not, snowed in Sydney.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/it-looked-like-snow-it-felt-like-snow/2008/07/27/1217097051268.html

Further afield last winter, 950 inches of snow fell in Mt. Ranier National Park.
http://www.mlive.com/outdoors/index.ssf/2008/07/snow_greets_visiting_hikers_at.html

Climate sensitivity reconsidered.
http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/monckton/monckton_rebutted.pdf
http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/monckton/chuck_it_again_schmidt.pdf

Enjoy,

Perry

[Aethelwulffe]

So you are posting localized events and stating that this is a good reason to reconsider the long term research of mainstream science....Oh Puh-leez. Arguing CO2 sensitivity and bringing up short-term spike CO2 release events is the usual method of attempting to invalidate studies of the observed effects of CO2 emissions. Notice that this rebuttal is NOT itself a reviewed scientific paper. It is just the spew of one dude. It also does not successfully refute ANY ONE validated point. It also does not have any independent field data in context.

Enjoy THIS:
Increased snowfall has been seen EVERYWHERE. Precipitation increases have been seen everywhere. This is a result of a WARMER CLIMATE and associated evaporation rates. The problem is, you get snowfall, but that does not mean that it is hanging out as ice. Snow is usually found in your warmer climates. Antartica is basically a desert, but has been receiving more precipitation (killing birds there) of late. That does not mean that the environment is not warming...in fact, the EXACT OPPOSITE IS TRUE. Permafrost is melting. Methane and decomposing material that has been trapped in the tundra for millenia is melting and burping out a wicked rate.

Back to CO2 and spike events:

Which is worse, having a single smoke bomb going off in the house, or having a perpetual burning cigarette in a livingroom ashtray? Vocanoes do release CO2 continuously, but that is part of the pretty much stabilized environment. The ground and animals release CO2, and the plants scrub it out. Volcanoes are the smokebomb in this statement when speaking about spike events. The CO2 is washed out of the atmosphere by precipitation, and the respiration of plants and (to a lesser degree) other processes. In a spike event, This happens rather rapidly. With a continuous source of CO2 emissions, such as our cigarette example, you may be scrubbing it out, but there is always some THERE. This keeps a more steady amount in the atmosphere for long time periods.
Is the CO2 from Mona Loa still insulating the Planet? No, it has been scrubbed out. The lesser volume of CO2 we are emitting continuously is ALWAYS PRESENT in our atmosphere, at slight but ever increasing levels. This lets it work at trapping heat EVERY DAY, not just for a couple of years. Another corrolary would be "which keeps you warmer on a cold day, wearing a parka for 5 minutes and then going naked the whole day, or wearing thermal underwear all day?" Slight continuous increases allow the sun to work on the planet continuously....thus slowly raising the temperature without ever having a chance to equalize.
When you have a volcano erupt, Plants have a growth spurt, they start assimilating CO2 more rapidly, the levels drop, and plant growth slows as everything sort of levels out to equilibrium (equalibrium to our current ecosystem). With a slight continuous increase, combined with humans removing everythig green they lay their eyes on, you have a non-elastic situation.

Are there any online tutorials on recognising psuedoscience that I can remit folks to?

[Pericles]

eny wun caled Aethelwulffe hoo lives if=n floridda an cant spel .Oh Puh-leez iZ wot we calls a 'big girls blouse' dU U LIKE SEX 'N' TRAVEL? u AR NUFINK. NO WOT I MEAN JON? dU us orl a flavor an dont cum 'ere again. U dont no nuffink. Bleedin navel oranges. 'e finks e,' n arkitect, but i aint see 'is boats sailin. Eny wun else seen 'is vesels?

Dyslexia ruls ko:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Aethelwulffe]

So I like to edit my posts for typos. So sue me. I also borrow plenty of grammer from my 14 Y/O. So slay me.
It is true that I don't know anything...makes me more cautious.

As for my boats, You used to be able to find them at the Corpus Christi Sailing school (I think they sold them all off, they only use big boats now), Florida Parks and wildlife (fisheries skiffs, sea sled type). Aransas Pass ferry, Universal Studios (big picnic boats that transport you from the resorts to the park) a number of one-offs (lots of dinghies, several larger wooden sailboats), and many bits and pieces of the US Navy Avenger Class mine countermeasures ships (MCM-1 class). My first project of any fame was the 1991-92 Texas A&M human powered submarine entry. Though we lost to the MIT thingamajig that could not even move (it was an artificial fish...a tuna I believe) we were the only entry to complete the course, and the best on the track. Performance was not being graded even though they DID say it was supposed to be a race.....NOT MY FAULT. It's also not my fault about the typos. You see, I am not dyslexic...it's my FINGERS. THEY are dyslexic.... Wathch thsi. See em tpye!

[Boston]

ya the bbc just got sued because the put out a film on the "hoax" of global warming
useing pericope's ,statements out of context and pseudo-science in an attempt to refute the theory of human influenced global warming
course on the other hand
All Gore got sued by the weather channel for misrepresenting the carbon relationship to temperature
Ill try to look up the name of the film
and the article about the complaint lodged by the scientists involved
B

[Pericles]

:D :D :D :D :D :D Talk to my lawyers. They are Sue, Grabbit & Leggit, 10, Downing Street, London, SW1A 2AJ

http://www.number10.gov.uk/output/Page1.asp

[Boston]

ya every body is sue happy
course the last Sue I was involved with was tall and had long blond hair
ah memories

hows england today friend
its on my destination list once I get back on the water

[Guillermo]

Another point of view from a guy named Russ George:

"I have read some of the many news reports on the ocean acidification and reef crisis that are presently extant. I beg to differ with the position that reducing our global carbon footprint will help save our ocean bathing beauties, the reefs.

It's not that I don't fully support reducing our carbon footprint, I am rather more concerned about the role of the present deadly dose of anthropogenic CO2 already in the air on its way to our surface ocean waters.

Those hundreds of billions of tonnes of anthropogenic CO2, the bulk of which we've prescribed and put en route in the past 75 years, are slowly dissolving into the surface ocean.

By most accounts CO2 in the atmosphere takes on the order of 200 years to equilibrate with the surface ocean. Hence the pH drop we've been recording is just the proverbial tip of the dry-iceberg.

As the surface ocean absorbs the rest of this deadly dose, regardless of whether we emit more which we surely are doing, the acidification process already destined to occur is more than sufficient to change ocean ecology in far wider and disastrous fashion than merely scalding the bathing beauties at the shore.

In fact the devastating effects CO2 has on the ocean is not proceeding only via H2O+CO2=H2CO3 (carbonic acid), there is a secondary reaction wherein CO2 is enhancing the greeness of the planets dry lands. There is is a major benefit our high and rising CO2 delivers to droughty grasses who are losing less water via evapotranspiration, remaining green and growing bushier each spring, and as such are superior ground cover thus reducing topsoil loss in the wind. Tragically that dust in the wind is the major source of vital mineral micronutrients for the open ocean. Prophetically it seems, all we really are is dust in the wind.

So as our reef beauties cry out and dissolve like Dorothy's wicked witch in our acidifying oceans, the acidification will certainly continue for at least another century unabated even if we never emit another molecule of fossil CO2 into the air.

At the same time as the oceans suffer this chemical shock treatment, like those we give our swimming pools, they will continue as well to lose their photosynthetic capacity to counter this onslaught. The loss of net primary productivity, NPP, is reportedly 17% in the North Atlantic, 26% in the North Pacific, and 50% in the sub-tropical tropical oceans.

We can find the fundamental proof of the depth of this problem by considering it from the point of view of basic chemical thermodynamics. Indeed we have expended a hundred terrawatts or so burning fossil carbon to put that deadly dose of CO2 into our atmosphere and ocean. No trivial energy savings will serve to counter its certain first principals chemical effects. We can still trust in what the Second Law of Thermodynamics teaches us in that one must balance equations energetically. If we are to address a problem created by terrawatts of energy we must devote
terrawatts of energy. In this case those curative terrawatts better be emission free or we are lost.

So where is there a source of emission free terrawatts of curative power we can devote to saving the oceans and help restore the balance of Nature?

It is of course ONLY available from photosynthesis and therein lies the course we must chart to restore our oceans as we must surely not simply imagine the damage we've prescribed can simply be ignored and start from the present mortally wounded state. No mere conservation ethic or effort will suffice, we are far to far over the tipping point for that to work.

We must replenish and restore ocean photosynthesis for there in the vast living ocean expanse the terrawatts of power, solar power, can be found and used to compete with the H2O+CO2=H2CO3 reaction. There in lies hope if
we act now to assist the ocean plants, phyto-plankton, to convert CO2 in the ocean to life instead of death.

Without replenished mineral micronutrients, without our determined efforts to administer the antidote, life in the oceans, and on this small blue planet, will surely revert to the cyanobacteroa; state from whence it came.

How do we do that?

We must take on stewardship of the oceans and restore the dust that is missing.

This will be a long challenging task but one ship load at a time it has to happen. Planktos Science has been working on this for about a decade having taken the baton pass from the late great John Martin of Moss Landing Marine Labs here in California.

What Martin showed was that we could take iron, in the natural form of mineral dust, to the oceans where with infinitesimal amounts the imbalance of Nature can be balanced. For each tonne of iron ore dust - you know the red stuff that makes dirt red, hematite - hundreds of thousands of tonnes of phyto-plankton will grow.

For more information about the work of Planktos Science and about their programmes , go to their website (http://www.planktos-science.com/?nid=46739)"

Russ George is the founder and current President of Planktos Science, a privately held San Francisco-based eco-restoration and ocean eco-technology company, whose mission is the restoration of damaged habitats.

---------------------------------

Now, CO2 acidificates the oceans while increases the greenish of the planet which on its side avoids iron dust reaching the oceans, which inhibits phytoplancton growing, which sustains less superior sealife....so, why are the whales populations improving? ;) :D

More seriously: how matches this with the ongoing desertification (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertification)...? do we really know something...? do we know enough about the nature's equilibriums to take such measures as feeding the ocean with iron? what the negative consequences of this? have they been equated? could an increased ocean productivity increase desertification on land...? Again: do we know all terms in Earth's biosphera equilibrium equation (and our share in it) to happily play with it?

In this line of thinking: do we know enough about athmospheric CO2's sources, equilibrium and real impacts, to risk to take what perhaps are dangerous measures to reduce it, some of them rather highly speculative and even ecoimperialist?

Cheers.

[safewalrus]

Can't see what all this stuff about CO2 being bad for you - last time I talked to a tree it told me how much he loved the stuff - couldn't live without it in fact! Lots of bushes (no not that lot! He'd want to burn it) nearby backed him up completely!

[the1much]

co2 and trees are like ants and anteaters,,,,,,we dont like ants,,, so we let the millions of anteaters eat em,,,,well,,, then we start killing anteaters for their fur, to keep our feetsies warm,,,,well,,,20 years pass and we only got 100 anteaters left,,,,,,,,,,,,,what does that do to the ant population that we hate so bad?

[Boston]

hey G
great article
Ive got something I wrote on this a while back
takes a slightly different tack but
its in a similar light
soonest Ill dig it up and drop it in the thread
basically its on the rise of the microbial sea
and the stratification of the oceans
both going to happen in conjunction with the rise in ph
( although the ph issue will not be the triger )
so easily observed today
in a nut shell
the stratification of the oceans is what lead to the permian triasic boundry great extinction
one of the two really huge extinction events
90% of life in the oceans
70% of life on land
100% of life over five kg
died because of an ocean anaerobic event
i.e. stratification

I would cite a lecture by Dr Jeremy Jackson
prof. em. of ocean sciences at scripts

[safewalrus]

I find it positively amazing that a puny creature like a human thinks that it can actually alter anything that will happen in the world - it ain't our fault and anybody who thinks so is either a complete fool or is part of the biggest con to be played in the world since some bloke called God took some bloke called Adam and made a woman out of his rib!!

Now rubbish - there's a different thing - we can and do effect that! Most all of the rubbish is down to that wasteful little creature, man! the more technocally adavanced the greater the output of rubbish! Not just verbally either!

[Jimbo1490]

By most accounts CO2 in the atmosphere takes on the order of 200 years to equilibrate with the surface ocean. Hence the pH drop we've been recording is just the proverbial tip of the dry-iceberg.


Inaccurate. The science on this subject WAS well established that co2 had a very short life in the atmosphere. The idea that it is much longer came along AFTER the AGW alarmism took on political legs and when the lab toys we call "Global Climate Models" could not produce sufficiently scary predictions with the established science, so the postulated new 'science' of 200 year old CO2. Evidence for this: NON-EXISTANT.

Those hundreds of billions of tonnes of anthropogenic CO2, the bulk of which we've prescribed and put en route in the past 75 years, are slowly dissolving into the surface ocean.

Inaccurate. Large scale CO2 releases started after WWII. WWII ended 63 years ago. AGW alarmists have for years tried to stretch the time frame for anthropogenic CO2 releases. There's a simple, (and COMPLETELY scientifically dishonest) reason for doing this; it gets them around explaining why atmospheric CO2 levels were rising BEFORE significant anthropogenic CO2 releases began, meaning those increases were (and still are) due to natural causes. You'll even hear them say that "CO2 has been rising since the start of the industrial revolution, since circa 1850". This is true of course. What is NOT TRUE is that humans were releasing CO2 in any significant amount since circa 1950, and not for circa a hundred years later. Yet CO2 was indeed rising during that century. In fact, the more recent increases fit nicely on that same trend line

We wouldn't put up with such factual sloppiness from politicians. So why should we put up with it from eco/ploitical pressure groups? ******** is ******** no matter who says it.

Jimbo

[safewalrus]

We wouldn't put up with such factual sloppiness from politicians. So why should we put up with it from eco/ploitical pressure groups? ******** is ******** no matter who says it.

Jimbo

Why not? we normally do? I do at least agree with your last paragraph - well put

[Boston]

respectfully my friend
I would suggest you brush up on your atmospheric dynamics

[Butch .H]

My 2c worth: I think we are hastening a natural process. With out our input it would be happening at a slower rate.

[Boston]

a repeat of the Permian Triassic boundary extinction
speak now or forever hold your peace
( ps.
Ive offered other fully noted articles before on this forum and what I found was my detractors were going to ignore the research and believe what they wanted any way; so forgive me if I dont go to the trouble of quoting friends and colleagues, and I just write )

AEROBIC STRATIFICATION

feel free to read and repost the following

pps.
every point I am about to make can and will be corroborated by the research of multiple scientists in published and pear reviewed articles should any questions of the veracity of a claim be made.


IN THE NEXT TEN TO TWENTY YEARS
THE WORLDS OCEANS WILL ESSENTIALLY BE DEAD
( quote by Dr Jeremy Jackson professor emeritus of ocean sciences scripts oceanographic institute )
BASED ON THREE MAJOR FACTORS
FISHING TO EXTINCTION
PLASTICS POLLUTION
AND SIMPLE FLUID DYNAMICS

THIS WILL RESULT IN CIRCUMSTANCES SIMILAR TO THE PERMIAN TRIASSIC EXTINCTION IN WHICH 90% OF ALL OCEAN LIFE DIED
70% OF ALL LAND ANIMALS
100% OF ALL ANIMALS OVER ABOUT TEN POUNDS
IT IS POSSIBLE WE ARE PAST THE POINT OF NO RETURN
BUT I PERSONALLY BELIEVE IF WE WERE TO WAKE UP TODAY
WE COULD TURN IT ALL AROUND
( EXEPT FOR THE PLASTICS POLLUTION )

GLOBAL DIMMING ( the reflection of sun light by atmospheric pollutants )
GLOBAL WARMING ( the reaction of sunlight with invisible pollutants )
FISHING TO EXTINCTION ( we have removed 95 out of 100 fish from out oceans )
POLLUTION ( no accurate records exist but pollution can be estimated in TRILLIONS of tons or multiples of 2,000,000,000,000,000, lbs per year )
ROUGHLY 60,000,000,000 TONS OF PLASTICS HAVE BEEN DUMPED INTO OUR OCEANS

THE AEROBIC STRATIFICATION OF THE WORLDS OCEANS

THERE HAS BEEN A TOTAL FAILURE OF OUR GOVERNMENTS TO REGULATE THE OPEN SEA

THERE HAS BEEN A NEAR TOTAL FAILURE OF OUR SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITIES TO EFFECTIVELY SOUND THE ALARM

FOR INSTANCE
OVER 200,000,000 TONS OF PLASTIC IS PRODUCED EACH YEAR. FOR EVERY TON OF PLASTIC THERE IS FIVE TONS OF MOSTLY TOXIC WAIST PRODUCED.
WORLD WIDE LESS THAN 3% IS RECYCLED
THE AMOUNT OF PLASTIC PRODUCED EACH IS RISING BY ABOUT 10% ANNUALLY

PLASTIC BAGS ALONE KILLED OFF MORE BIOMASS OF GREEN SEA TURTLES IN THE GULF OF MEXICO OVER THE LAST TWENTY YEARS THAN THE MASS OF ALL MAMMALS ALIVE ON THE CONTINENT OF AFRICA TODAY
COMBINED ( I have multiple sources for this figure if you need me to dig it up )

These bags were mistaken for the jelly fish that these marine reptiles love to eat and they choked to death. Of the 150,million or so green sea turtles that once swam in the gulf there are today less than 50 thousand

if we are afraid to face the truth
how will we face the future

on 9/11 tragedy (RIP)
on 9/12-15 some thing extraordinary was discovered
and scientists all over the world shook there heads in disbelief
( frankly, when I read the research, I didnt believe it either )

When air traffic over the usa was halted, due to a lack of jet con trails reflecting sunshine the surface temperature variation between day and night ROSE and average of 1 deg, C. in the usa over a three day period of time
That's huge.
No atmospheric temperature reading in the history of records keeping could compare with this discovery. The world of atmospheric sciences was shocked
and the question of global dimming was answered
Were it not for the reflection of visible atmospheric pollutants we would be seeing an even more dramatic rise in global temperatures today

Since the early seventies the average intensity of the sun as measured at the surface of our planet HAS DROPPED BY AN AVERAGE OF OF OVER TEN PERCENT. This data was presented and ignored by a community that simply couldn't believe the stunning truth and its implications.
Ten percent was simply to shocking to be believed .
The recent catastrophic rise in world temperatures is apparently partly driven by a cleaner atmosphere that coincides with the advent of clean air laws throughout north America and Europe.

We have mandated cleaner air through the controls of VISIBLE pollutants,
but failed to address INVISIBLE pollutants, the green house gas's
as the atmosphere gets even clearer
and the levels of co2 and of other green house gas's rise for whatever reasons
the temperature also rises, fast

but I believe this could also be our finest hour
climatologists and marine scientists around the world are coming to a consensus on our likely near futures
there are two of them
one in which we do little or nothing and face a catastrophic extinction event
the other,
will lead to us having ancestors
who will look back on us and judge what we do now
at the edge of the world

WE ARE FACED WITH THE FOLLOWING

IT IS NOT WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN

THIS IS HAPPENING

ITS HAPPENED BEFORE

ITS HAPPENING AGAIN

AND ITS HAPPENING FAST

I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY
AND HE IS I


The rapid melting of the ice sheets will overwhelm the oceans ability to mix this influx of fresh water.
The alteration of the density of surface water due to warming and fresh water influx is already beginning to stall the grand oceanic current.
Scientists have seen a drop in current strength in some areas and in some years of 30% in the gulf stream

THAT 30% IS THE EQUIVALENT OF 40 TIMES MORE THAN ALL THE WATER FROM EVERY RIVER THAT DRAINS INTO THE ENTIRE PACIFIC OCEAN, COMBINED.

A complete halt of some up-welling currents on the north west coast of the us,
leading to the deaths of millions of marine organisms and hundreds of thousands of sea birds and marine mammals, has recently been observed.
Now Im not saying this MAY not have happened before, but we dont know that it has, and it certainly seems a dramatic enough event to at least be worthy of notice

The stalling of these vertical currents will lead to the aerobic stratification of the oceans.( predicted by Scripps oceanographic institute AND nearly every oceanic currents model at every major oceanographic institute and every atmospheric research institute around the world )

THIS IS LIKELY TO OCCUR IN THE NEXT TWENTY YEARS

THIS HAS HAPPENED BEFORE AT LEAST TWICE

THE LAST OF THE TWO MAJOR HISTORICAL EVENTS IS KNOWN AS THE PERMIAN TRIASSIC BOUNDARY EXTINCTION

The oceans will become a microbial soup dominated by bacteria, virus and jellyfish and no higher vertebrate forms will survive, there will b no fish, no birds, no whales, no sharks, no tuna, no fishing no shrimp no swimming and no sailing in the ocean or even walking along the beach nothing, even sea shells will dissolve in the now acidic oceans and all of it gone forever unless we DECIDE TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE NOW
the eutrification of the oceans also results in the advent of toxic algae which when driven by coastal winds to shore become airborne making it unsafe to breath the sea air
The oceans oxygen producing potential will be negligible once reduced to a microbial anaerobic soup.
( the oceans presently produce about 70% of our oxygen. )
What they will be able to produce is volatile hydrates, dissolved sulfurs, methane's, ammonia's, and lots of co2.
These will saturate the oceans and erupt in events similar to what occurs in certain stratified lakes today like lake Nyos and Monouor .
our atmosphere will be saturated with these gas's instead of oxygen and will no longer be able to support large life forms

We have subsidized our population levels on the very last fish we took from the oceans and 95/100 of those fish are, as of this writing,
GONE.
At present every major fishery in the world is at the brink of collapse
( except Alaskan polock )
At present every single major fish species in the oceans is already environmentally extinct ( that means they do not exist in numbers sufficient to influence the environment around them i.e. the balance that once existed is lost )

NOT MIGHT BE LOST
OR COULD BE IN THE FUTURE
BUT TODAY
THE ECOSYSTEM OF OUR OCEANS HAS ALREADY BEEN ( for now ) DESTROYED

there are today numerous anoxic dead zones rapidly growing in areas around the world, like the gulf of mexico dead zone, which varies between 6000 and 7000 sqr miles and is for all practical purposes devoid of vertebrate life, or any marine animal over a few grams in ttl mass

We have in our history examples of nearly every step of our present environmental break down and its results. There is no reason to not act . Although many scientists think that we have reached the point of no return. I think we can still turn it around, it may take a few more years for the ignorant to become fully aware of what the scientists now know and what it means for our future, but if we bend our industrial might to a common end,
I think we can save ourselves and this planet.
As a public we have had our successes and our failures.
The coming environmental storm represents what is our greatest challenge
a challenge that will bring all of us to the edge
and back again


I think some day
our decedents will look down on our planet and say of us
that we were the lucky ones
I believe they may envy us this time and this challenge
Ild like them to say of us
that we had the knowledge the courage and the determination
and used it
I want them to look back at our time
and instead of blame us
congratulate us
because what we do now in these next few years
will write a history
no one will forget
or no one will be around to remember
its up to you
BECAUSE WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT
THIS **** IS HAPPENING FAST
ITS HAPPENING NOW
AND IT WILL EFFECT US ALL
WEALTHY, POOR OR IGNORANT

feel free to read and repost the previous
( fix the bad grammar first please )
this isnt pretty
its not a f$#@%&g hype job or politics or dream land
and I dont write this cause any one paid me
nor do I bother to address tripe that spins on the mas media engine
this **** is going down weather you admit it or not
educate yourselves my friends
and speak out
or speak no more

and please
if you chose to disagree
fine but
dont come at me with some sarcastic first year chemistry lesson
or some decades old industry diatribe
ask me were I got my info if you like
I will either refer you to a colleague or direct you to a lecture or paper

[Boston]

ok I just noticed something about that
it should have read 95 out of 100 fish over one foot
the figure does not include fish species under one foot
my bad
its what I get for not sending to my editor first
my bad
B

[Jimbo1490]

Boston,

You've double posted. Kindly please remove the duplicate post; one of you posts is MORE than enough :D A little terseness would be welcome.

Jimbo

[Boston]

oops
sorry

[Jimbo1490]

the levels of co2 and of other green house gas's rise for whatever reasons
the temperature also rises, fast

Boston,

Dude, calm down. The good news is that this is wrong; dead wrong. If you were actually current with this controversy you would know that temperature increases ALWAYS precede CO2 increases by SEVERAL HUNDRED YEARS. You can't blame CO2 for causing an event (warming) when the cause and effect relationship SIMPLY DOES NOT EXIST. Every ice core and sea floor mud core yet extracted has shown the consistency of this relationship. This is a BIG PROBLEM for AGW alarmists, don't you think?

CO2 is a very minor greenhouse gas; water vapor is the only greenhouse gas of real significance and it is (almost) entirely natural in origin. I suppose the 'Holy Grail' of AGW alarmism would be to find a conclusive link between tiny increases in CO2 and increases in water vapor so that CO2 somehow 'leverages' the global atmospheric temperature though water vapor. No such link has been found; indeed no one has even been able to postulate a credible mechanism for such a link. The water vapor cycle operates quite independently from the CO2 cycle.

If such a link did exist, then the climate system would have gone off the rails millenia ago when atmospheric CO2 level were much higher, and with such a link present, the climate would have been unable to right itself and runaway greenhouse effect would have ensued. Of course we know that didn't happen. The most recent research shows that the climate system is in fact highly stable, not exquisitely sensitive as climate alarmists would have us believe.

Jimbo

[Guillermo]

I align here with Jimbo and Perry. I think enough evidence has been found already to let us doubt about the anthropogenic causes of the (now dissapearing?) GW, and seriously put us to think about the increasingly probable possibility of a coming soon global cooling and its consquences for humankind.

Cheers.