What Do We Think About Climate Change

[Guillermo]

More:

"Carbon dioxide is often labeled “the most important greenhouse gas” by the media and in popular literature. Those familiar with the field know that this is not the case. Water vapor (by far the most important greenhouse gas) is excluded because it is treated as a feedback in climate models. Unfortunately, this is not understood by most of the general public, nor by many policymakers for that matter. Carbon dioxide is a minor greenhouse gas responsible for only a small fraction of the earth’s greenhouse effect. Increasing the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere by, for example, a factor of two does not double the amount of infrared radiation absorbed by this trace gas. The reason for this has to do with where the carbon dioxide absorption bands are located relative to the earth’s emission spectrum, and the amount of carbon dioxide already in the atmosphere. Carbon dioxide has three absorption bands at wavelengths of 4.26, 7.52, and 14.99 micrometers (microns). The earth’s emission spectrum, treated as a black body (no atmospheric absorption), peaks at between 15 and 20 microns, and falls off rapidly with decreasing wavelength. As a result, the carbon dioxide absorption bands at 4.26 and 7.52 microns absorb negligible amounts of thermal radiation compared to the band at 14.99 microns."

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0706/0706.3621.pdf

[safewalrus]

Now that my friend seems plausable! Witness the weather you are having today in Andalucia (or so father tells me from Mallorca having received it from my sister in Andalucia - yes mate we're closer than you think!! Damn English heratics get everywhere!) Hardly of the type to foster views about Global Warming that's for sure!! Pretty damn cold in Cornwall too!

[Guillermo]

Twelve-month long drop in world temperatures wipes out a century of warming.
All four major global temperature tracking outlets (Hadley, NASA's GISS, UAH, RSS) have released updated data. All show that over the past year, global temperatures have dropped precipitously.

http://www.dailytech.com/Temperature+Monitors+Report+Worldwide+Global+Cooling/article10866.htm

Cheers

[masalai]

If that Global current thingie stops or changes THEN you will know a "hot & a cold worlds" depending on where you are...

[Meanz Beanz]

IMO you are on the money Guillermo, watched another doco on it last night. I have seen so many now I recognise all the bits that they have borrowed from other doco's. They acknowledged that the heat transports have shut down many times in the past and will likely do so again in the not so distant future. Yet some how they still projected the view that man can alter and stave off the condition by reducing CO2 emissions. Common sense asks why this would be when the natural order of things has travelled this path before man was, well just was really. A cold turn is due right around now...

Water vapour seems to be ignored as a green house gas because it dwarfs the volume of CO2 and any variation in its volume can more than out weigh CO2's effects. It seems simpler to treat it lightly as an element in the climate models than than try to account for it fully. The fact seems to be that the variables are so many and so interconnected that any climate projection to far into the future can easily be altered to produce any outcome by changing some base assumptions. Coming up with any degree of accuracy here is a long shot.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see cleaner fuel in use and would do a lot to encourage it but I have seen very little that I would consider a viable alternate to oil yet. Most of these technologies don't scale that well, replacing oil is a mighty task. Keep in mind with our current growth in consumption we need something with 10x oils original potential as a solution not a simple replacement, a quantum leap. Our history has had us come through with a dominant solution to most problems and among the green contenders there is nothing that holds out that much hope yet (discounting nuclear cause ya all seem to hate it!)

[Meanz Beanz]

My cynical side says that "Greenhouse Effect Global Warming Climate Change" (notice how the language has changed to accommodate the notion that it soon might be global freezing!) is now such an industry with so many research grants and jobs dependant on it that it will not be allowed to be challenged in an open way. There is too much vested interest here already... I was appalled recently when one, the only, anti man made climate change doco was to be aired by the ABC. The sledging and calls for censorship where many and loud, so much for the idea of free speech in this country. Surely if the "every single ******* scientist in the world agrees camp" are correct they should not be concerned by the airing of a contrary view, it should in fact just reinforce the validity of their stance. What we got was a disgraceful display of strong arm tactics more fitting of a dictatorship than a democracy. Now before some smart pops up a says the doco in question was flawed, and in some respects I would agree, the same charge can be leveled at everyone of these things I have seen so far... they all are more emotive entertainment than factual accounts.

Rant rant rant.... sigh.

[masalai]

Let me do/introduce something that should produce more response than my usual red herrings?

Think of all the options & reasons for the "climate changes" - is peak oil the motive behind saying "Don't burn fuel/make co/co2" or is it the "big boys" saying "It is your turn now, to develop renewable/solar/wind energy systems whilst we Oil interests profiteer (we will donate some to support your solar stuff - invest in it)

so who are the main INTERESTS - oil, mining, mineral processing, marketeers, new technology, leisure supply, GREED, POWER ... Whose turn has it been, who is next?

The market boys seem to recognise that although India & China will be HUGE markets, they will mostly look after themselves.... so "The West" must be induced to continue to consume to keep enterprises and markets rolling...

The joke on another thread seemed to me to be very close to current operations in stock/commodities markets - tea lady comes in saying "tea's up" and immediately an operator yells "buy tea" - LIGHTNING RESPONSE... Not a game for me...

You will note I do not mention food production of farming - only poor people do that and they have (poor people) always been at the bottom of the heap and relied on as "consumers" trying to buy their way up and out of the trap...

[Pericles]

CO2 is not the issue. Carbon footprint is a spurious name for guilt trip. The greens are trying to make us feel bad, but the tide is turning against them. There was an excellent article by Chris Booker yesterday. Find it here.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/04/20/do2002.xml

There are a couple of other papers that would reward the dissidents amongst us.

http://www.lavoisier.com.au/papers/Conf2007/Archibald2007.pdf

http://www.middlebury.net/op-ed/global-warming-01.html

How well do these new windmills work in blizzard conditions? That's what another Dalton Minimum will mean, if Sunspot Cycle 24 doesn't start soon.

http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FIAU%2FIAU2004_IAUS223%2FS1743921304005307a.pdf&code=6810d5c8f80b2d92a239898b8d35813a

Keep up to date about a road trip to look at the sites for NOAA USHCN stations as many of them are placed where the measurements they record are affected by the surrounding buildings.

http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/

Perry

[Meanz Beanz]

I believe that "climate change" is more about selling the realities of peak oil to the US public than anything else. Its a feel good positive angle on an issue that the electorate had every right to expect relevant anticipation from their elected officials. Solve peak oil and you most probably solve CO2 emission issues. Peak oil is real and now, yet it is undiscussed by the popular media, too harsh, its better to make the population feel good about crusading for the planet rather than dealing with the harsh realities of curtailment in cheap energy in economies that rely on cheap energy for the lifestyles that we have come to love.

Don't blame the traders, if they are wrong they end up victims of the underlying and pervasive trends, they end up merely subsidising the true cost of the change by losing money. If they are right they end up providing the capital to those who have the power to contribute to the solution. This is capitalism at work and it works... its messy but so is any form of creation and we know the alternate fails.

The truth is we are in competition for energy and when supply becomes limited the typical solution for our "leaders" is to go to war for what is left of whatever the conventional source for the era is. This is a sad fact, we as the people need to beat our leadership about the head and demand that we sacrifice other elements of our life in the effective search for an alternate solution to the energy issue. The most effective mechanism we have is the market. High prices for energy and water will lead to the capable, talented and motivated in our midst to offer effective solutions to the problem, we must first embrace high cost as the path to the most efficient solution to the problems that face us. The "feel good" solutions such as punitive "windfall profits tax" merely take the capability away from the most experienced players to provide answers.

Recenty I listen to a US polly grill an Exon board member about the profits they had made, he was suggesting somehow that they where predators. His response was simple and devastating, he countered that they had spent more that the profit number on alternate power research and that in the end they where an energy supplier, oil is getting scarce and they are making every effort to be apart of the next energy solution as they see themselves as a energy company. He pointed out that any tax on the "windfall" profits would curtail the ability to look for the next effective step in energy supply and push up the cost of the currently available energy. After all government takes the money but never comes up with the solution.

For my money, the market is messy, brutal, but effective and it makes the hard decisions where no populist ever will. Let it drive change and don't curtail it with unrequired government penalty, after all it only exists at the beck and call of all those individuals voting with their hard earned $. It might be inconvenient, hard, hurt, but the problem is serious and demanding that our pollies provide unrealistic "solutions" through silly taxes and nimby laws is never going to get us to a solution.

More rants from the ape...

[Meanz Beanz]

You will note I do not mention food production of farming - only poor people do that and they have (poor people) always been at the bottom of the heap and relied on as "consumers" trying to buy their way up and out of the trap...

Austrian Economic Theory might interest you, this has alot to do with the mismanagement of our "money supply" and the resultant misallocation of capital and misinvestment. Long story short, we all have Jetskis (read new toys) and grand houses but the country is missing basic productive infrastructure and productive capacity (food, minerals... the basics.. you have read the news stories) Was this predictable... yes... the Austrian School of Economics tells you why. Unfortunately we in the Western world loosely follow a Keynesian doctrine that empowers government by ultimately robbing the people.

A link for those of an academic bent...

http://www.mises.org/ ... Ludwig was right!

Cheers

Mbz
The dumb arsed ignorant and disconnected Ape.

[masalai]

You presented politically correctly what the red herring was presenting with emotional fervour. - - Thank you sir... When I was doing Macro & Micro economice under the guidance of Dr Chandra Rau at WAIT in '77 I was then of the view that Keynesian theory sucked and some recognition (deniable) was suggested outside class:D:D

[Meanz Beanz]

I was sitting econ exams explaining how inflation and stagnation where mutually exclusive events while the economy was in what came to be known as "stagflation". Boy did that grate but if you wandered off line and pointed out reality you where summarily marked down, so "parrot the line" we did! Keynes is god! Keynes is god! Keynes is god! Keynes is god! LOL.

It truly is the dismal science...

"Economists use statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts for support rather than illumination." -- Andrew Lang (1844-1912)

But then again I am just an ape, not a professional economist...

Cheers
MBz

[masalai]

I think I alluded to it elsewhere - My lecturer then, (1977) privately defined economics as the nearest thing you can get to witchcraft without running the risk of being labelled as a witch as you are burned at the stake for making a wrong prophesy :D:D:D - - In unguarded (private) moments, displayed a wicked sense of humour...:D:D

I have also heard of "there are statistics and lies" one being supported by "********, the other by academic ********" the word "bureaucratic", fits in there somewhere - fcuk the ageing processes, recall is hampered by an overload of data/information... and I know what to expect, as I am told it is partially hereditary and caring for mum, I get to see it everyday first hand - bugger (to quote from the Ford series of adverts?)...

[Meanz Beanz]

In unguarded (private) moments, displayed a wicked sense of humour...:D:D

:D You'd need it to stay sane if it where your chosen path!

[masalai]

Maybe that is why we "clicked" a bit - similar sense of humour - but I took an easier path...

[Guillermo]

Solar cycle 24 prediction:
http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/SolarCycle/SC24/index.html
Solar cycles 24 consensus prediction
http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/SolarCycle/SC24/Press_Briefing_Biesecker.ppt#265,1,Douglas Biesecker
Solar Cycle progression
http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/SolarCycle/index.html


From one of the very interesting articles Perry posted (thanks Perry):

"Al Gore likes to say that mankind puts 70 million tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere every day. What he probably doesn't know is that mother nature puts 24,000 times that amount of our main greenhouse gas -- water vapor -- into the atmosphere every day, and removes about the same amount every day. While this does not 'prove' that global warming is not manmade, it shows that weather systems have by far the greatest control over the Earth's greenhouse effect, which is dominated by water vapor and clouds."

"Man-made CO2 doesn't appear physically capable of absorbing much more than two-thousandths of the radiated heat (IR) passing upward through the atmosphere.

And, if all of the available heat in that spectrum is indeed being captured by the current CO2 levels before leaving the atmosphere, then adding more CO2 to the atmosphere won't matter a bit."


Cheers.

[Guillermo]

IMO you are on the money Guillermo...
From http://www.middlebury.net/op-ed/global-warming-01.html

"After the hockey stick was accepted virtually overnight without close examination ( like the Piltdown Man ), along comes Al Gore, a long-time "environmentalist", ( who made near-failing grades in science and math in college ) who decides to make a movie out of it. The hockey stick goes up on the big screen, and Gore boards a mechanical lift with cameras grinding, pointer in hand as he rises in unison with the blade of the stick which starts growing upward toward the ceiling. No longer are we talking about tenths of a degree, the temperature is rising like a puff pastry, and headed toward the attic. It all began with the word "if". If the hockey stick tip continues to rise (lift starts going upward, the audience holds its breath ) then... and along comes computer animations of New York flooding, Florida underwater, and poor little Polar Bears struggling to board the last piece of ice floating in the open Arctic Sea. (sigh...) It ends with Hurricane Katrina and Boston almost losing the pennant. It is Hollywood at its finest, and the Deacons of La La Land give it an Oscar. Even the Nobel Committee is impressed, gives it two thumbs-up and a Nobel Prize to Gore and the other members of the IPCC for the many lives that will be saved in the future because of this brilliant early warning. And, there's still time for we miserable humans to "save" the planet by buying "carbon offsets" accomplished best by investing in Al Gore's British company which buys stock in other companies that will benefit from a world-wide global warming hysteria (keeping a healthy cut) and making, perhaps, Al Gore the richest former Vice President in history. That will buy a lot of SUV's, jets, and large mansions with mega-electric bills. Everyone wins except the taxpayer and businessman, who are soon to pay a very heavy price.
............
While Al Gore's Oscar and Nobel Prize winning film, An Inconvenient Truth, has serious students of climate change laughing their heads off, the British didn't think it was very funny. The British High Court has ruled that it cannot be shown to students without first having a disclaimer that it is "propaganda", instead of a "documentary". "

Cheers.

[Meanz Beanz]

While Al Gore's Oscar and Nobel Prize winning film, An Inconvenient Truth, has serious students of climate change laughing their heads off, the British didn't think it was very funny. The British High Court has ruled that it cannot be shown to students without first having a disclaimer that it is "propaganda", instead of a "documentary". "

Yes, its not like Al declared any conflict of interest here is it... Its an inconvenient pile, complete with miss matched data sets and fudged graphs. :rolleyes:

However dare to criticize and you are socially ostracized, everyone is a rabid climate change cheer leader now!

"Man, once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities... With such persons, gullibility, which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason and the mind becomes a wreck." ---Thomas Jefferson

Belief is the enemy of truth.

[masalai]

I believe, I believe - that one should never let the truth get in the way of a good story :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Meanz Beanz]

Now we just have to work out who is telling the most reliable stories!

[masalai]

or lies? either way it will point the thinking person in the same direction

[Pericles]

"However dare to criticize and you are socially ostracized, everyone is a rabid climate change cheer leader now!"

Not for much longer as the world's economic slowdown continues. There is a sea change coming.

http://www.sepp.org/publications/NIPCC-Feb%2020.pdf

As for sense and sensibility, here is Scotland about to the first to freeze. It's crazy, because there is still plenty of coal to be mined and clean coal technology without CO2 sequestration is very efficient for generating electricity.

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2008/04/contradictions-of-environmentalism.html

We need massive amounts of CO2 for growing food.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_coal

It's a long journey, but the first steps have been taken.

Perry

[masalai]

I think I am as ready as I can for whatever transpires... Just a matter of sitting and watching... and doing what masalais do - play at throwing little red fishes... :D:D:D

Not forgetting to keep watch in case there are some changes to be made or available...

[Meanz Beanz]

Its great isn't it, we have a sense of entitlement when it comes to energy, turn the power out and listen the complaints. We want it cheap, we want it reliable and now we want to tell the industry all the things they can't do to generate it, which with the NIMBY crew down here includes many "green " alternates. We decree that the most expensive and impractical means be used requiring massive investment in dubious technology yet we balk at any increase in cost. Yikes... something has to give!

Clean coal tech looks viable down here but there is massive resistance to both that and nuclear. Push will come to shove at some point and some compromise will be made, the people will not tolerate excessive energy bills for long.... that's a government changer.

I would settle for seeing a greater degree of intellectual honesty in the dinner table debate, just seeing the populace armed with more in the way of facts about the real choices they are making, filling in the grey between the black and white sound bites we receive via the main stream media.

MBz

[masalai]

Hi Heinz,
I had a beaut response all typed up, went to post and I had dropped out somehow - Oh well ...
Last first, Even if a Poly had the desire and opportunity to make a useful decision several things woiuld interfere... - The bureaucrats would have great difficulty in using their brains as devices to implement thoughts into actions - need for 10 tons of documentation to authorise and indemnify the decision makers implementing the first decision by the politician... - The media would not be able to run with it as it could not be made into a sound bite/flash image... - the NIMBY or and all who feel disenfranchised or adversely impacted would cry long and loud... The good idea would quietly get placed on the too hard shelf...

I am not (and never have been) keen on nuclear power... - Wind is a bit variable and capital intensive for the output, (no research just a feeling from media - ?reliability?) - - - On the plus side, PM Rudd has espoused favour with CO2 sequestration to the extent of promoting and facilitating that with China on his recent visit, . . . This suggests that it could see implementation in Aussy... I would also like to see geothermal power given more support and encouragement as this and coal is in abundance in Aussy...

On a personal level, endeavour to be as self sufficient in all the things that make life comfortable. Grow ones own food, use the $8000 subsidy to set up solar photovoltaic power, harvest ones own water for drinking, showers & laundry etc., recycle water for garden and septic flushing. Done that, and found it quite a rewarding and satisfying activity...

I will be installing solar within 6 months. water tanks will be part of the new home on a slightly bigger block. This house will become a boat... Just the boat design to be sorted...

[Meanz Beanz]

I want to build a house, a passive solar house inside out to the way we do it now. Thin skin, good insulation and thermal mass on the inside. With the right sun protection to allow winter sun in and keep summer sun at bay and the correct ventilation it could come close to not requiring extra heating or cooling. Double gazing would be required to manage heat flows but aside from that I think it should not be an overly expensive exercise.

There is a Canadian idea for heating that is a simple pile of blue stone enclosed in a long hut that is basically just a 45 degree pitched roof, double glass on one side and insulation on the other and at the ends. Its orientated to collect heat during the day and the glass can be covered by night to contain the collected heat. A simple fan is used to circulate the air from the house through the hut and it collects heat from the blue stone. Apparently its very effective and heats for the cost of running a fan.

Solar power intrigues, lighting is very doable now with LED. I would like to see better storage tech and I don't know about running heavy loads like washing machines etc.

Lived off tanks before, that's easy and we had not even gone as far a recycling water via reed bed systems or anything like that. Great improvements to be made there. Don't know about composting loos... need convincing on that one.

You are right, there is a certain satisfaction in not being overly reliant on the system... there are plans in the works but life circumstances don't permit a move yet, maybe soon but not yet.

Veges from Woolies are getting so crook that growing my own is under serious consideration if only to taste a decent tomato once again!

Sounds like Tom and "The Good Life" LOL

:D

[Pericles]

Guys, guys, guys! What words do we not understand? Carbon Dioxide is good for all living creatures on this planet as it fuels plant growth. Famines occurred in past centuries when CO2 levels dropped to around 200 ppm Tomato growers burn propane to raise the level of CO2 in their greenhouses to 1000 ppm. Current levels of CO2 are about 390 ppm.

As we enter a period of global cooling and with a population in excess of 6.2 billion people, of whom many millions are starving now, what will be the result of reduced levels CO2 on plant growth?

However, the CO2 situation palls into insignificance alongside the reality that because growing seasons will be shorter and the grain growing lands of North America will not be so large, even those of us living in the 1st world will have to tighten our belts.

I grant that it is difficult for some to let go of the propaganda hammered in by the greens, the idea that each individual must reduce their own personal carbon footprints and reducing CO2 emissions is good, but you have been lied to. Therefore, let there be no more discussion. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Rudd, Bush, Brown, Sarkozy, Merkel and the rest of western politicians are useless buggers. Luckily, both India and China will continue to emit CO2. Even CO2 at 600 ppm will not stop global cooling, but it will maximise crops.

http://www.sepp.org/

http://www.globalgoldtalk.com/investments/60422-nipcc-warming-solar-not-human-caused.html

Who said said “‘global warming’? We never meant ‘global warming.’ We meant “‘global climate disruption’!”

Answer, John Holdren.

http://www.heartland.org/NewYork08/newyork08.cfm

Why don’t you put an official NOAA temperature sensor over concrete?
Because the measurements will be wrong. Garbage in, garbage out.

http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/

Perry

PS This is real time image of sun. Where is Sunspot cycle 24?

http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/data/realtime/mdi_igr/1024/latest.html

[masalai]

OK I will endeavour to respond as I read (well past my bed-time as I arise early for "caring duties"... At last someone in Victoria interested in "passive solar" instead of double brick... Site orientation has a significant impact. Have one gable (sloping surface facing north ish to carry your solar hot water panels (thermal) and photovoltaic panels at an angle such that it is close to right-angles to the winter noon sun.

A good thermal capacitor is a central positioning of large water tanks - no heating as the temperature is stabilised and holds remarkably steadily. The hot water can be fed into this tank in the mornings (after shower needs) if the core temperature needs boosting - need a really cold stretch to need that... Totally passive... to cool ensure cross flow ventilation can accept prevailing breezes. Surround northern and western verandahs and courtyards with table grape vines - prune after harvest for winter warmth...

For nor do not worry about batteries, sell the surplus to the electricity supplier and reduce your electricity bill. Low energy "fluro" globes are good value at 14 watts and less leave the leds for 12 or 24 V systems in your boat...

I have used dry/composting loos, but yes I prefer the standard water cistern too...

If you intend to stay in the frozen south then a glasshouse for year round production would be advisable... Well done, between the both of us we have solved most of the worlds problems....

[Meanz Beanz]

Perry this is more about liveability than any CO2 phobia. I take what you say but I will always seek to create efficient elegant solutions to problems, current standard building practice is neither IMO. There are many benefits of building the right way, mostly just creating a great environment in which to live and get the best of our climate.

[Meanz Beanz]

A good thermal capacitor is a central positioning of large water tanks - no heating as the temperature is stabilised and holds remarkably steadily.

Yes, I have read about building around a 10,000 gal concrete tank...

Bed time.. CYA.

MBz

[Pericles]

PRESTO FROM SIDC - RWC BELGIUM Tue Apr 22 2008, 1149 UT

Solar activity is expected to be extremely low for the next 48 hours.
Geomagnetic activity is expected to be active within the next 48 hours. The first 24 hours of the forecast period are expected to be mostly quiet. Unsettled to active conditions might occur in the second half of April 23rd, due to a recurrent coronal hole.

http://sidc.oma.be/

Consequences of sunspot activity.

ABSTRACT.

We have recently suggested that one solar cycle was lost in the beginning of the Dalton minimum because of sparse and partly unreliable sunspot observations during 1790s (Usoskin et al. 2001). So far this cycle
has been combined with the preceding activity to form the exceptionally long solar cycle #4 in 1784-1799 which has an irregular phase evolution (known
as the phase catastrophe) and other problems discussed in earlier literature. Based on a re-analysis of available sunspot data, we have suggested that solar cycle #4 is in fact a superposition of two cycles: a normal cycle in 1784-1793 ending at the start of the Dalton minimum, and a new weak cycle in 1793-1800 which was the first cycle within the Dalton minimum.
Including the new cycle resolves the phase catastrophe and leads to a consistent view of sunspot activity around the Dalton minimum. It also restores the Gnevyshev-Ohl rule of cycle pairing across the
Daltom nimimum. Here we summarize these findings and show that the existence of a new cycle is supported by the auroral occurrence in Europe in
late XVIII century.

http://spaceweb.oulu.fi/~kalevi/publications/non-refereed2/ESA_SP477_lostcycle.pdf

Hell's teeth! These reports are an education in themselves.:D :D :D :D

Perry

[Pericles]

MB,

"seek to create efficient elegant solutions to problems, current standard building practice is neither IMO."

I could not agree more! Building regulations and planning permissions in the UK also work against innovation. Land is next to impossible to buy and even sheds cost a fortune. Look at this 1950s prefabricated concrete panel house with thin and poorly insulated walls.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-17175754.rsp?pa_n=1&tr_t=buy

The answer has to be to live on a boat and enjoy a beautiful environment whilst moored up.:D :D :D

http://photography.nationalgeographic.com/photography/enlarge/river-thames_pod_image.html

Perry

[charmc]

Brian, Perry, Guillermo, and MB/Heinz,

Not much time here (myself), posted a rant in crude oil. Al Gore was hyper-defensive when asked how his family's multiple fuel-hogging vehicles and energy wasteful homes and general lifestyle were justified as he preached radical policy and practice changes for all the world. Mumbled something about buying energy credits, shouted that his entire family had a "carbon-neutral footprint, if you even understand what that means", and has never allowed another interview by that news organization. Meanwhile Al continues as the wealthiest former Vice President in history, fleecing the eco-freaks for all they're worth.

Many good reasons to minimize consumption and fossil fuel use; more sense shown here than in the halls of most governments (obvious but tragic).

Gads, you guys are youngsters! I was studying macro and micro econ and thinking Keynes was maybe good theory, but what gave anyone the right to play Robin Hood (least of all governments, which by nature rob from everyone and give to themselves and their friends/backers), in the mid 1960s.

[Meanz Beanz]

Many good reasons to minimize consumption and fossil fuel use;

That's my feeling, yes lets make OUR environment healthier but lets not wreck peoples livelihoods in the process. Lets understand why its best to move away from carbon and its real supply limitations and not be panicked into bad moves by carnival barkers.

[masalai]

Endorsed, (Charles, Perry, Guillermo & Heinz) with a chuckle of approval - sorry no soundbites available...

[SamSam]

I have also heard of "there are statistics and lies" one being supported by "********, the other by academic ********" the word "bureaucratic",
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
- Autobiography of Mark TwainWe have a tv commercial over here where the guy says something like " You can make 90% of statistics say anything you want 50% of the time." I'm not sure what that means.

http://www.quotegarden.com/statistics.html

[the1much]

at least with global warming we'll have something good to look at,,,,even if we cant breathe hehe ;)
today was history channel day,,,,most people dont think 1 degree is that big of a deal,,,,but with our earths orbit round the sun suppose to be elliptical,,not round,,,,,round = warmer,,,,,elliptical= colder,,,,,,guess what we're suppose to be doing now?

[Meanz Beanz]

Cherry pick the numbers and the economy is fine, cherry pick the the inputs that create the numbers and we have 3% CPI, rose coloured glasses and prozac flakes for brekkie.... oh crap, I just wet myself laughing :P

http://www.shadowstats.com/

I'm just a rebel without a clue.... shadup ya damn ape!

[Meanz Beanz]

guess what we're suppose to be doing now?

My biological programming has produced an answer, its not a solution but it involves the lass in the picture. :P

[masalai]

A master of economics has a mastery of statistics and an economist is like a witch without a broom (uses a biz-jet), and has better spells to cast... ( -masalai- 23 Apr 2008)

My misquote could not rightly be attributed hence the "I have also heard" also I had forgotten the original phrase, thanks...

[the1much]

make love,,,,not warmth?,,,hehe ;) :D :P

[Meanz Beanz]

Its my big bang theory of global warming... abstain, cool the globe!

[masalai]

Whaaaat me abstain? why? NO way...
Be self sufficient. - OK.
Be less dedicated to gross consumption - actually - (next line)
Be minimalist in consumption. - OK.
Be helpful and sharing of any surplus. - OK.

[Guillermo]

Now to turn this interesting discussion in a more boating oriented one, I propose to talk about what the influence of a major global climate change (be it warming or cooling) would have on boat design. Let's imagine we go into a little ice age again, with global temperatures dropping 2ºC under what they are now. How would that afftect sea related activities in general (drilling, transport, fishing, pleasure boating, etc) and what the influence on designs?

Cheers.

[masalai]

I am intolerant of cold and layered clothing, so move to a warmer climate or hibernate...

I pray for a warmer climate, where I would feel very comfortable and never return - gotta build MY boat first... I figure it has to be within 10 years or I am doooomed to landlubbering.... Present choice is an Oram 39 "mango" or the 44-C with John Hitch type rig and electric drive etc... (no gas cooker)

[charmc]

How would that afftect sea related activities in general (drilling, transport, fishing, pleasure boating, etc) and what the influence on designs? Cheers.

OSV construction is booming, with record backlogs. Regardless of the economic incentives for alternative energy sources, oil will be king for many years. Drilling in deeper waters will grow, maintaining the demand for more and larger support vessels.

Transport in the near term wil see a growth in mega container ships, which are more economical in terms of operating cost/ton, and therefore more "green" fewer emissions/ton transported.

I have no idea what effect a few degrees drop in water temperature might have on fishing. In general, though, demand for seafood will increase, while concerns about shallow water fish farms concentrating contaminents will increase. Open water fish farming has been growing, as some types mimic open water conditions well. This may increase demand for specialized vessels to transport the harvest to land based facilities.

Recreational boating will eventually reflect higher fuel costs, the result of both peak oil factors and lower average temperatures. Thankfully, that might mean the end of stubby deep v hulls which require hundreds of horsepower just to get to cruising speeds. Perhaps we will see mass produced hulls designed to be more easily driven, as well as smaller engines. Power cats should increase market share. The same influences will see an increase in sailboat purchases, although powerboats will continue to dominate the market, at least in the US.

I don't believe a 2 deg C temperature drop will affect boat design from a "stay warm" aspect, but, not for the first time, I could be wrong. :)

[Guillermo]

Thanks for the follow up, Charlie and Brian. Very interesting discussion may arise. But I have to go now to work. Tonight I'll be back to these forums (hopefully, as it is my birthday and a nice family celebration is foreseen) to find out more ideas from other members.

Cheers.

[lazeyjack]

and ALL sailing boats under 50 feet shud be fully tax deductable, and totally subsidised, excepting Cats:))

[Meanz Beanz]

yeah and dogs

[masalai]

Meorrroww....

Guillermo, Happy Birthday...

[charmc]

as it is my birthday Cheers.

Best wishes, Guillermo!!

[the1much]

HAPPY B-DAY GUILLERMO ;)

[safewalrus]

Guillermo Happy Birthday my friend, hope it is a good one! And many more to come eh!

;) :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D enjoy the party!

[Guillermo]

Thanks everybody!

[Meanz Beanz]

I hope that is a carbon neutral cake! Be sure and let Al know if it give U gas, he can sell you some bum offsets.

[the1much]

i cant afford "offsets",,,so i guess i can only have 1,,,,wait,,,,i like watered my trees today,,,is that good?,,or should it be save the water,,not the trees?,,,im confused,,,i ate a chicken today, (renewable resource ) so that mean i can waste my bacon and not be fined?
hehe ;)

[Pericles]

Phil Chapman. Astronaut, geophysicist and astronautical engineer.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23583376-7583,00.html

What can I say? Panic buttons we do not need yet but, as science fiction authors Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle wrote in their 1977 cult book, Lucifer's Hammer, civilisation is "only three meals removed from savagery". EUReferendum.

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/

http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/

Perry

PS

http://umbrellog.com/archive_forum/viewtopic.php?p=65856#65856

[masalai]

I thought this may be of interest? - - http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/24/2227109.htm?section=justin

A leading climate change scientist says there is too much misinformation being spread about the theory. - - Professor Barry Brook from the University of Adelaide says those who deny climate change often have ulterior motives. - - He has published an article calling for scientists to step up and support the research being done in the field. - - Professor Brook says it can take just a few minutes for popular opinion to undermine years of scientific research. - - "Anyone can get up there on a website or on a blog, or even get an opinion piece published in a newspaper that just says a bunch of crackpot ideas that haven't been through any rigorous scrutiny," he said. - -

Oh well, adds fuel to the fire - whichever side you take?

[safewalrus]

I still blame the invention of the bow and arrow! Nothing buttrouble with that invention, I meanactually letting go of the spear! Stands to reason you lose control!!! Been the same ever since!!

[Meanz Beanz]

A leading climate change scientist says there is too much misinformation being spread about the theory. - - Professor Barry Brook from the University of Adelaide says those who deny climate change often have ulterior motives. - -

I like the way they always go for the term "climate change" with the inference that it is mans fault. Its not like the other camp is arguing that "climate change" isn't a reality just that mans role in it is minor.

[masalai]

The only worry I have is that I HATE the cold, and therefore will bat for the "warming" camp as wishful thinking...

What is that rain in Sydney again? I was hoping that mini low would head north (not likely) but it went south to piss on Sydney again/still...???

Maybe I should "wish for cold", then in perversity, I would get warm ????

[Guillermo]

Here Prof. Brook's CV and photo.
http://www.cdu.edu.au/ser/documents/b-brook-cv080506.pdf
Seems to me to be a bit of a clever but quite pompous guy. Could it be that this guy is precisely one of those who have "ulterior motives"?
Who knows....

A presentation from this guy on global warming:
http://www.climatechange.sa.gov.au/PDFs/Presentations/Barry_Brook.pdf
It seem to me somebody is messing up with the data......and what we have read on the links and info at this thread, sounds to me better argumented and sustained.

Cheers.

[the1much]

safey,,,i think it was the invention of the WHEEL that did it,,,man them dinosaurs where gas guzzlers hehe ;)
and 1 of them smart sciencetist i saw on t.v.,,,said,,its not that humans are gonna kill the earth,,,we always have these changes,,,( but like i said before) but,,WE might make it VERY hard to "come back" from the next 1.
Have ya heard about them "fertilizing" plankton fields,,,1 ton of plankton fills up,,and sinks with 10 tons of carbon diox.

[masalai]

the1 that sounds like a very good idea, then all that carbon stuff sinks and lo, - - years later, - - it is extracted for fuel and the cycle continues... That is what I call recycling... and everyone has plenty of fuel to burn to make more CO2 to feed the plankton to make more fuel to........ well you know the rest????

[the1much]

ya they use "iron" and spread it through the field ,,but,,,,warmer oceans kill the plankton,,,,what a damned circle,,,,i think we're all stuck in the middle of a "circle jerk" hehe ;)

[charmc]

PBS (US public TV network) had a program last night on changes affecting the ocean and repercussions ashore. Very big on depletion of species from overfishing. One phenomenon allegedly resulting from overfishing is huge releases of sulphur dioxide and methane, eruptions covering thousands of sq km of ocean off the coast of Namibia. The theory presented was that overfishing has resulted in too few plankton feeders, so too much plankton, with huge blooms and die offs, causing decomposition gases trapped in the residue on the ocean floor. Reduced atmospheric pressure from storm fronts causes gas releases, which kill more fish, then erupt into the atmosphere. The show was based on a study published in 2002. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v415/n6871/full/415493b.html .

The show itself had an obvious agenda, but the footage of massive trawlers sweeping all life from miles of ocean at a time were persuasive, as were the footage and descriptions of vast oceanic eddies filled with floating plastic trash.

Regardles of anyone's thoughts on the reasons for climate change, it should be obvious that uncontrolled removal of fish life and injection of trash are bound to reduce the quality of our oceans.

[Guillermo]

Interesting, Charlie, although I'm not sure eliminating the predators close to the top of the feeding pyramid will make phytoplancton bloom. Contrarily, eliminating big predators would make plankton-feeding animals to bloom, thus reducing the amount of plankton, I think.
Here another article on the same news, with more data and image:
http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view_rec.php?id=6094
And another one:
http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/deep-sea/dn4639-noxious-undersea-eruptions-killing-billions-of-fish.html

Dozens of phytoplancton blooms images at:
http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view_set.php?categoryId=463&p=1

Cheers.

[lazeyjack]

i just gave this wee man a chicken bone, do you think I shud eat him for Dinner, did you get sms, Guillo?

[Guillermo]

Yes, Stu. I got the sms and answered back saying thanks.

[charmc]

Like most TV shows, the science was without much detail. I confess I don't know the specific fish - zooplankton - phytoplankton relationship.

[Guillermo]

Perry,
You should write this people: http://www.newscientist.com/home.ns
They are in the UK.
Not a single word on global cooling.

Problem with this global warming gurus is they are boosting crazy people to propose planetary engineering projects to cool the planet, which may lead to disastrous effects by themselves. See, for example:
http://environment.newscientist.com/article/dn13773-planetary-sunshade-could-strip-ozone-layer-by-76.html?DCMP=ILC-hmts&nsref=news3_head_dn13773

Cheers.

[lazeyjack]

Yes, Stu. I got the sms and answered back saying thanks.
ah was sent by JAJAH, so cant answer,
To much to think of in climate change, here they talk abt making all lights in new homes fluero , passing into law, but they are still producing 5 litre plus cars as fast as they can, so unless alongs comes a politician with real guts, only lip service will ever be paid to address the issues I hopped into one car the other day, the puter said , average fuel consumption 14.7 l/100 Whereas you can by a 2 l common rail diesel, just as fast, 6l/100 these are the things that could be tackled very easily
Down here sailing across the Tasman, I thought the seas looked very healthy, with so many marine mammels and fish Rarely does one sea ocean litter, in fact our beaches are totally devoid of plastic and other crap

[Guillermo]

Charlie,
As far as I know, fishes eat zooplancton wich feeds on phytoplancton. So eliminating fishes should increase zooplancton, this diminishing the phytoplancton stocks, not the contrary. See:
http://animal.discovery.com/news/briefs/20050606/foodchain.html

But I do not know the process in deep, either.

Very interesting presentation on the ocean's trophic chain and more:
http://www.joelkostka.net/teaching/1001/CH10.ppt#264,29,Productivity varies greatly in different parts of the ocean in response to the availability of nutrients and sunlight.

[charmc]

To much to think of in climate change, here they talk abt making all lights in new homes fluero , passing into law, but they are still producing 5 litre plus cars as fast as they can, so unless alongs comes a politician with real guts, only lip service will ever be paid to address the issues

"Compact fluor" mandated here, also. But fluor lamps have mercury vapor inside; consumer warnings say to leave the area for a while if one is dropped. So greens are encouraging use of more mercury. :confused: :confused: Too many measures are driven by hidden agenda, measures become popular, ignorant people develop mass hysteria, "remedies" invoke the Law of Unintended Consequences (LUC is a close relative of the ubiquitous Mr Murphy).

[Guillermo]

Regardles of anyone's thoughts on the reasons for climate change, it should be obvious that uncontrolled removal of fish life and injection of trash are bound to reduce the quality of our oceans.

Totally agree.

"The most important idea, proposed in SCIENCE magazine February 6th, would be to shift the burden of proof onto the fishing industry. Those who profit from public resources such as the oceans should have to demonstrate, before they can begin fishing, that their activities will not harm the public resource. At present, it is assumed that fishing will not damage life in the oceans, and the burden is on the general public to prove otherwise."

http://www.earthportals.com/oceansfish.html

Cheers.

[lazeyjack]

"Compact fluor" mandated here, also. But fluor lamps have mercury vapor inside; consumer warnings say to leave the area for a while if one is dropped. So greens are encouraging use of more mercury. :confused: :confused: Too many measures are driven by hidden agenda, measures become popular, ignorant people develop mass hysteria, "remedies" invoke the Law of Unintended Consequences (LUC is a close relative of the ubiquitous Mr Murphy).

one of my closest friends was an industrioal electrician, he parked his car everyday by a bin of broken flueros. the car was dusted, he died of cancers at 49, provan carcenogen was the mercury

[Pericles]

Having taken a look at Professor Brook who says it can take just a few minutes for popular opinion to undermine years of scientific research, I would say that if those years are so easily undermined, then the results of that (or perhaps his) research are flawed. Just sour grapes. That ugly man is so behind the times that he thinks shaving his head is cool. :P :P :P :P

Brian, I would say to you that fence sitting is never an option.:D :D It's going to be colder and the northern hemisphere will bear the brunt of the ice. Aboriginals are reputed to have arrived in Australia 40,000 years age whilst Europe was still iced up. The climate improved here only about 15,000 years. It's unlikely you'll be iced over, though rainfall would increase and Alice Springs could be at the heart of a huge body of water. Start reserving your lakeside frontage.

Guillermo, Brook's pdf is out of date. Nothing later than 2004. All four agencies that track Earth's temperature (the Hadley Climate Research Unit in Britain, the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York, the Christy group at the University of Alabama, and Remote Sensing Systems Inc in California) report that it cooled by about 0.7C in 2007. This is the fastest temperature change in the instrumental record and it puts us back where we were in 1930. If the temperature does not soon recover, we will have to conclude that global warming is over.
http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2008/04/scariest-photo-you-will-see-all-day.html

Brook is wrong.

Regards,

Perry

[safewalrus]

Looking at all this climate change - some say the world is warming up others say it's cooling down! Makes you wonder doesn't it! IS ANYTHING ACTUALLY HAPPENING? OR IS IT WHAT THE POWERS THAT BE WANT TO HAPPEN? Would all seem to me that it is a plan by various governments (G8 ?) to cause panic amongst the populance with a view that panicky people are easier to control! Concentrate the minds of the peasants (you and me) on higher changes and we'll forget the minor ones. Revrse blame too - you dumped that, so all this is your fault! (nothing to do with what we are doing)

Logical? you bet it is!

[Pericles]

Climate is always changing. It always has. It always will, until the Earth is no more. The global warming scare is now part of leftist/socialist/green dogma , promoted only in order to dominate the peoples of the world. What demonstrates how stupid these clowns are, is that they now believe their own lies & propaganda. I can recommend two books that will explain everything.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Scared-Death-Global-Warming-Costing/dp/0826486142/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207918668&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0826480144/qid%3D1141260902/sr%3D1-1/ref%3Dsr%5F1%5F3%5F1/026-6400777-7651666

I am all for global warming as the alternative will kill billions. However that alternative is what is now happening.

Perry.

[lazeyjack]

just thought you may like see this, or maybe not, camped here two nights, the ships passed so close , Bosperos

[masalai]

Perry, I would say I am waiting for a definitive direction to be established, - - and either way, I am covered as best I can, with the current data and prognosis...

[the1much]

just thought you may like see this, or maybe not, camped here two nights, the ships passed so close , Bosperos

theres my proof that 60% of "boaters" aint real freakin BOATERS!
hehe ;)
and if you was to show people that pic and tell them they had a hand in it,,,,,and ask them to walk round with that pic like a proud daddy!!,,, how many would turn their idiot heads and RUN away,, freakin asswipes:mad:
,,,that should be a new law everywhere,,,if ya caught doin something that freakin stupid,,,ya should have to walk around with a pic of ya crap for a year!!

[Pericles]

Brian,

It's the tax money that's being wasted on reducing CO2 emissions that is the tragedy. Your money, my money. It's ***kin' criminal.:D :D We need global warming to grow the crops to better feed the billions we already have. Global cooling will starve them in even greater numbers. In the northern hemisphere, the northerly borderline for cereal crops moves 100 kms further south for each one degree Celsius drop in average temperature. If the drop of 0.7 degree of last year continues unabated, then by 2020 AD, North America will have lost a swathe of farmland 600 miles wide.

The choice is that stark, but as it's all about sunspots, we humans do not have a choice at all. :( :( :( :( :( :(

http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/data/realtime/mdi_igr/512/

Perry

[Pericles]

Remember this?

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2008/02/crying-dog.html

[masalai]

I agree, Pericles, the politicians spend the money provided by taxpayers with no vision or remorse at their stupid decisions in wasting it but what solution? - - Don't vote for them next time? - - It would be nice if something more personally felt by the wastrels could be delivered - - sadly no legal mechanism yet???

[the1much]

the sad thing is,,,,most the time you cant tell who voted for what,,,,,say our represenitive voted YA on a big tax cut for the "average joe",,,well inside that "average joe" bill,,,theres 3 million cut for joe,,,but,,5 million of taxes go to state drinking fountains,,7 mill. to put another stripe on dirt roads,,and 3 million for the state reps to have lunch brought to em.,,,,,,and through all that all we hear is that our "rep" voted for "our" tax cut.,,,,,,nother even more SADDER part,,,,,most the time even that "rep" didnt know the rest of the crap was in there.

[Pericles]

http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/monckton/goreerrors.html

Read, mark and inwardly digest! :D :D :D :D

Perry

[Meanz Beanz]

I now have proof global warming is man made ....

http://bp2.blogger.com/_4iFUUTvNvv4/RzjGJhM6k-I/AAAAAAAAAYE/nnV3QxI1PY4/s400/piratesarecool4.gif

Its dem dam pirates...

Mbz

[Meanz Beanz]

http://listverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/1191.jpg

OK, OK !... jeez its just a joke joyce.

[FAST FRED]

http://www.climatepolice.com/

The climate police have no cure for the pirates , but they end all the BS about warming.

FF

[the1much]

another 3 degrees and i think i could pick a wife out from the cloths line hehe ;)

[masalai]

2000 - STRING & a bit of lace (or is that hair?)
2010 - NO NICKERS (Man that is HOT:D)

[safewalrus]

Trouble is guys we need global warming/cooling whatever it is! How else will we sell things, build things and generally make money - well OK this year anyway! Next year the buzz words will be different and we'll need what ever they are then, until then we MUST care for our environment...............I think!

[masalai]

So, is next year - 2009 - to be the year of "whether the weather will whether the weather and weather the kiwis will still notice the wether is out in the weather in the heather?" - - - baaa aa aaaa aaaah
(I think if I change the spelling around I can get twenty interpretations or meanings)

[safewalrus]

about that ................. nearly

[Meanz Beanz]

You running for PM.... M?

[masalai]

PM? (Prostitute Male?) not that I know... I am ever hopeful of a bite from our friends over the ditch - obviously, by now reckon I am harmless, armless, or not worth the effort...

But if I am PM and you are asking if I would like to be the male version "M" for James Bond and to play (test) some of bonds toys (that go bang?) - could be fun - sort of - spouse would kill me if the toys were of the female variety....

Anyway I will give Kevin a bit more time, as he is not a labour hack and may still be untainted with the short-sighted disease infecting too many politicians on every side.... me - couldn't handle the pace nor dedication???? - I am a retread remember - cant afford to retire....

[Meanz Beanz]

Kevin, yes we will see.... he is a bit slick with the celebrities so far, budget should be a whole lot of fun :D

[masalai]

Anyhow, on topic, let the climate do as it will, Just a bit more and reliable rain would be nice for a change.

[Pericles]

Brian,

Chaiten's dust is high and may affect southern hemisphere weather. You may well get your wish this year. http://www.icecap.us/

The news is reporting a relatively large and long lasting volcanic eruption in Chile. According to the AP, the Chaiten volcano spewed lava and blasted ash 20 miles (105,000 feet) into the sky on Tuesday the largest ruption to date since the volcano came back to life last week, prompting a total evacuation of the provincial capital and other settlements. The volcano’s long lasting eruption has sent a thick column of ash into the stratosphere, streaming across Patagonia to the Atlantic.
...
http://icecap.us/index.php/go/joes-blog/the_chaiten_volcano_could_it_be_a_factor/

More photos. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/05/photogalleries/Chaitenvolcano-photos/index.html

[masalai]

Gee that cloud of smoke/ash is putting out a fearful amount of electrical energy.

Thanks for the info Pericles...

[Pericles]

Dr. Rajendra Pachauri 12th May 2008
Chairman Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change
c/o World Meteorological Organization
7bis Avenue de la Paix
C.P. 2300 CH- 1211 Geneva 2,
Switzerland


Dear Dr. Pachauri and others associated with IPCC

Where the hell is your reply to the letter by Hans Schreuder (et al) sent to your HQ on 14th April 2008. See copy below.

http://www.ilovemycarbondioxide.com/letters/IPCC_letter_14April08.pdf

Quite simply, the question you have to answer is why have global temperatures have fallen since they peaked in 1998, whilst CO2 has risen by 20 ppm in the same period?

If global temperatures continue to fall, do you think the planet could be headed back towards another Minimum? Here's a reminder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maunder_Minimum

As it happens, We all understand your difficulties in putting pen to paper. You all now see the writing on the wall and are unable to work out what to do next. Let us assist. Just tender your resignations and leave now. The party is over.

Yours truly,

The intelligent denizens of Earth.

PS.

http://web.mac.com/sinfonia1/Global_Warming_Politics/A_Hot_Topic_Blog/Entries/2008/5/2_It%E2%80%99s_All_Unravelling.html

http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/number%20watch.htm

[safewalrus]

We're all Doomed, Cap'n Man'ring! Doomed!!

[masalai]

Always look on the bright side of life (Monty Python?)

[Meanz Beanz]

We decide....

[masalai]

So many "meaningful" reports claim every-way but stopped... Let it (whatever) happen and I will go where it is warm... :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[safewalrus]

Aye, but there's a difference between warm and too hot Missy Lee! So stay outa the shower until you've checked!!

[the1much]

HAHAHAHHA,,,can ya believe some small pissant minded balless gimp, wanna be gave me a bad rep. for saying the pic that lazyjack put up was proof of idiots,,,hahahaha,,and the idiot wouldnt even sign his name again,,,man,,,people that are afraid to stand up for their mouths,,,well dude,,,if ya pass around points enough,,ya can give me more bad ones,,,see if maybe ya can make me cry,,hehehe,,,ooo,,,heres what the simpleton left for a comment,,,*******,,,,,,,
Those with little brains need to use profanityto try to make thier point. hehe
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
see another "nameless" non-boater,,hehe ;)
ya so he must like that crap in the water,,,,,since he disagrees with post 334,,hehe

[safewalrus]

Unfortunately the one we've all had to put up with the mindless coward! one wonders if it's the same guy who gets a kick out of being a 'wanker' yes you numpty profanity to discribe you! If you want to take away points then at least have the guts to say who you are -you won't of course because your like that - chickens are braver than you!! Pity Jeff can't find a way to give the ID of anyone who posts points - good or bad!! But I guess the system is there to be used, i just can't stand cowards is all! It's not as if we are going to come round your place and punch your lights out!! In most cases we don't know who you are or where you live - but the nickname would be nice!! Would also prove that you stand by what you say!!

[masalai]

Local time was 08:44 and The local Telstra net has died, as all the "workers" are logging in and nothing is moving...

[safewalrus]

Now that sounds vaugley familiar - the 'nothing is moving' bit anyway!!

[masalai]

Perry, in your weather/climatology do you look at this weekly blog? http://www.wunderground.com/blog/RickyRood/show.html

[Pericles]

Brian,

First time of viewing. The point to remember is that the AGW forecasts are computer predictions. The data is somewhat corrupted. US weather stations are being reviewed as there are significant numbers of having been placed in locations where the surroundings are affecting the measurements. http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/

RickyRood quotes figures that include NOAA figures for March, 1880-2008 and shows them on his graph. The second article by Andrew Watts (with another graph) links to http://www.icecap.us/ There you can find an article entitled "Even Flawed Data Can’t Hide the Cooling". NOAA reports April 2008 was a full degree (F) below normal making it the 29th coldest April out of 115 years for the United States, the coldest in 11 years.

That makes sense as even the useless Daily Telegraph (I do not read the MSM, except to gloat over their stupidity) reported that the climate will get colder.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/04/30/eaclimate130.xml

Since 1998, global temperatures have dropped, yet the CO2 level has risen by 20 parts per million. I'm glad about that, as CO2 is essential for plant growth. Whilst the Chaiten volcano eruption is a local disaster, perhaps the ash will cause the end of the big dry in OZ.

Best wishes,

Perry

PS I like this.

The reason people like Al Gore and many others are in denial is explained by cognitive dissonance. This occurs when evidence increasingly contradicts a strongly held belief. Rather than accept the new evidence and change their minds, some people will become even more insistent on the "truth" of the discredited belief, and attack those who present the new evidence — again an "intelligence" failure.

http://washingtontimes.com/article/20080518/COMMENTARY/673994116/1012

[safewalrus]

Probably -WTF????

[masalai]

Local climate change is getting dryer and warmer this winter (It is wintertime in the Southern Hemisphere at the moment - - Officially in 2 weeks or less????)

[Pericles]

http://co2science.org/video/ClimateCrisis.php

Here's a report.

May 19, 2008
Review of “Carbon Dioxide and the “Climate Crisis” - Reality or Illusion?”

Joseph D’Aleo, CCM
I often am asked in talks or via emails what I would recommend for schools to present the other side of the Climate Change issue to An Inconvenient Truth. I have recommended (and continue to do so) Apocalypse? No! by Lord Christopher Monckton. There is now an excellent second choice video, ”Carbon Dioxide and the “Climate Crisis” - Reality or Illusion?” produced by Sherwood and Craig Idso of CO2 Science. It is the introductory video into what will be a series of videos that very effectively uses scientists and a heavy dose of peer review to present the case that the alarmist position presented by Gore and Hansen is not at all justified.

As the Idso’s note: “Al Gore, former U.S. Vice President and Nobel Peace Prize recipient, calls the host of negative consequences that he predicts will accompany the on-going rise in the air’s CO2 concentration “a planetary emergency—a crisis that threatens the survival of our civilization and the habitability of the earth.” James Hansen, Director of NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies, similarly claims that the earth “is close to dangerous climate change, to tipping points of the system with the potential for irreversible deleterious effects,” and he contends that “ignoring the climate problem at this time, for even another decade, would serve to lock in future catastrophic climatic change.” Do these dire contentions reflect reality? Or do they portray but a marvelously-crafted and hugely-effective illusion?

The new DVD—Carbon Dioxide and the “Climate Crisis” - Reality or Illusion? (copyright 2008 CO2Science)—explores this perplexing problem through an insightful review of numerous (72 peer-reviewed) scientific studies that have been largely ignored by the world’s climate alarmists, and by illuminating commentary provided by a number of researchers who have spent the better parts of their careers studying the many facets of this complex subject.”
...

http://www.icecap.us/

[masalai]

Sorry Per look at Gold - higher than the clouds he he he.......

[the1much]

i dont think theres a person alive that can say what is, or isnt happening,or gonna happen,,,for every person that says their an authority on the subject,,and says we're NOT warming,,,i can find as many that say we are,,,,,,sad part is,,,all those so called smart people...cant even admit that their just guessing.

[DanishBagger]

Ah, yes, CO2science:

http://stevegloor.typepad.com/sgloor/2006/02/bogus_descripti.html

Not really a trustworhy source, frankly.

- And before you say that about "my" source: he's not the one making claims and "nudges" the facts to sit better with the audience.

Edit: I found a rather funny link, with regards to co2science.org:

http://www.brutallyhonest.org/brutally_honest/2007/06/co2_science_ipc.html

First, this neoconservative is blogging about something CO2science.org says. The only problem is, he doesn't understand the first thing. Then someone dissects the entire thing, and, guess what, CO2science is manipulating. Btw, check up on the commenters last paragraphs. I checked. Yes, it's true:
As to your "Who are they?" section, you again haven't done much homework. Didn't you notice that the executives of this group consist of a father and his two sons? That both of the two sons were at one time on the payroll of the Western Fuels Association, an energy industry group? That they have received $100,000 in funding from ExxonMobil? This is not what I would call an independent research organization. They're a propaganda outlet for the fossil fuels industry, nothing more.

[Knut Sand]

Hmm, normally I stay outa discussions like this.. But I have done the math, one night when I was under some incluence of an old often used chemical, In Wino Veritas....

I that night developed what I called the 3rd crab (cooking) theorem.

1 st Theorem; Put the crabs you intend to boil directly in cold water, increase temperature, the crabs will show minimal signs of stress or pain, while the temperature is increased, comfortably numb?

2 st therem; Crabs shall be cooked and put directly into hot boiling water, as this will cause instant death, with a minimum of pain.

That night I collected data for temperatures, internet is, well you all know... sea temperatures, during the last 30 years, I assumed that only the upper area of the sea had an 1 deg.C increase in temperature (20-30 m depth?), earth is a ball approx 12700 km in diameter, approx 70% of this is water. To increase the water temp for 1 liter/1 deg C, you'll need 4180J/kg*K okay; I admit it, it was a zillion zeros, in that amount of energy gone into that temperature increase.
I then calculated the no of sec. the last 30 years, also a lot of zeros. and divided the first result with this. This gave me the average energy input for the last 30 years (ehh; the lack of balance). Got a troublesome number there too, divided this into the no of people on this 3rd rock from the sun... If I recall correctly I ended up with approx 5000 W Per head...., not considering if the person is located in the middle of Kalahari and have never seen a electric socket or of the person is located in the west coast of the USA with (big) car, (big) boat, (big) house, AC etc. That's the misbalance of that calculation, heat input, versus output (heat loss).
No way that all that energy comes from human activities alone. But I believe its a kind of domino effect, mayby some buffer actions in the nature is also tripping over.
However:
We're painting the glass of our greenhouse, cheaper flights, more flights, bigger, better faster more... So; Nobody did see my (one man) protest march, that night, in my hometown...

0230; that same night, I came up with the
3 rd theorem: The 1 st crabcooking theorem also applies to humans.

So my preliminary decision is; can we in any way, infect the environment in a positive way, even by fractions, by our actions, or by our knowledge avoid something, that will change the (way of) life as we are used to it; We should do it, or try to do it.

However I do claim the right to a change of mind, in any direction.

[masalai]

Some Norwegians have an interesting intellectual capacity, Thank You Sir....recognition awarded

[DanishBagger]

recognition awarded

Haha, you too? I did too, and we almost quadroupled his reps :!:
:cool:

Edit: I completely forgot: The problem with the calculation is (of course) that it's not just about how much "heat" humans produce. No, it's about how much of a "lid" we produce, so all the Gigawatts the sun produces and sends to earth cannot escape again. It's like gaffataping a pig sty, for want of a better picture.

[the1much]

THE MANHATTAN DECLARATION ON CLIMATE CHANGE

INTERNATIONAL MEDIA CONTACTS (IN 16 COUNTRIES) FOR THE DECLARATION - CLICK HERE

TO VIEW ENDORSERS OF THE DECLARATION - CLICK HERE

TO ENDORSE THE DECLARATION - CLICK HERE
Manhattan Declaration on Climate Change
“Global warming” is not a global crisis

We, the scientists and researchers in climate and related fields, economists, policymakers, and business leaders, assembled at Times Square, New York City, participating in the 2008 International Conference on Climate Change,

Resolving that scientific questions should be evaluated solely by the scientific method;

Affirming that global climate has always changed and always will, independent of the actions of humans, and that carbon dioxide (CO2) is not a pollutant but rather a necessity for all life;

Recognising that the causes and extent of recently-observed climatic change are the subject of intense debates in the climate science community and that oft-repeated assertions of a supposed ‘consensus’ among climate experts are false;

Affirming that attempts by governments to legislate costly regulations on industry and individual citizens to encourage CO2 emission reduction will slow development while having no appreciable impact on the future trajectory of global climate change. Such policies will markedly diminish future prosperity and so reduce the ability of societies to adapt to inevitable climate change, thereby increasing, not decreasing human suffering;

Noting that warmer weather is generally less harmful to life on Earth than colder:

Hereby declare:

That current plans to restrict anthropogenic CO2 emissions are a dangerous misallocation of intellectual capital and resources that should be dedicated to solving humanity’s real and serious problems.

That there is no convincing evidence that CO2 emissions from modern industrial activity has in the past, is now, or will in the future cause catastrophic climate change.

That attempts by governments to inflict taxes and costly regulations on industry and individual citizens with the aim of reducing emissions of CO2 will pointlessly curtail the prosperity of the West and progress of developing nations without affecting climate.

That adaptation as needed is massively more cost-effective than any attempted mitigation, and that a focus on such mitigation will divert the attention and resources of governments away from addressing the real problems of their peoples.

That human-caused climate change is not a global crisis.

Now, therefore, we recommend –

That world leaders reject the views expressed by the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change as well as popular, but misguided works such as “An Inconvenient Truth”.


That all taxes, regulations, and other interventions intended to reduce emissions of CO2 be abandoned forthwith.



Agreed at New York, 4 March 2008
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
and who are these people?,,,every day yahoo's,,,,but their name makes em sound like thy're something special,,hehe,,,,thats why i say,,,,there are very FEW "experts",,the rest are bored people who wanna sound smart,,hehe ;)
heres who these people are,,,hehe<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Science Advisory Board

Professor William Alexander (South Africa)

Professor Scott Armstrong (United States)

Dr Tim Ball (Canada)

Dr David Bellamy (United Kingdom)

Andre Bijkerk (Netherlands)

Professor Bob Carter (Australia)

Hans Erren (Netherlands)

Dr Vincent Gray (New Zealand)

Dr Kesten Green (New Zealand)

Dr J. Herold (Germany)

Albert Jacobs (Canada)

Dr Madhav L Khandekar (Canada)

Dr William Kinninmonth (Australia)

Professor R.W.J. (Rob) Kouffeld (Netherlands)

Hans Labohm (Netherlands)

Dr Jay Lehr (United States)

Professor Marcel Leroux (France)

Professor Fred Michel (Canada)

Dr Nils-Axel Mörner (Sweden)

Professor Peter Stilbs (Sweden)

Dr Gerrit van der Lingen (New Zealand)

[DanishBagger]

Yup, the one. They ARE actually saying that because plants need co2, let's make even more, as it benefits the plant.
Hell, even taking a look at their dvd-section, they're selling videos produced by western fuels association saying the same thing. Plus, WFA is linking to them constantly.

Btw, the Idso's are all agricultural "scientists" (I hesitate to call them that, as that would imply they actually knew what "scientific methods" are).
What a bunch of tossers.

[Knut Sand]

The problem with the calculation is (of course) that it's not just about how much "heat" humans produce. No, it's about how much of a "lid" we produce, so all the Gigawatts the sun produces and sends to earth cannot escape again. It's like gaffataping a pig sty, for want of a better picture.

That's what i meant by "painting the greenhouse"..
1 m3 of co2 weight about 1,9 kg/m3, while air weight 1,3 kg/m3, so; eventually, it will fall down to earth, where plants can do their job, but the time it spends in the atmosphere is probably the problem.

Another idea; Can we put all planes on the ground for 1-2 months, can we measure any improvement? I wouldn't miss a second of my time spent on planes or airports, so the personal cost would be minimal...

[DanishBagger]

Haha, knut. No, we wouldn't be able to measure something like. First of all, planes is just a part of the equation, and, secondly, it cannot be measured that quickly, not to mention that it's a tad more complex than putting a thermometer up an airballoon.

How about the US made it illegal to drive anything but public transport for a few months? That might be better in the long run.

Btw, all of this is about tipping the scale. If the atlantic pump stops, all of a sudden, we'll have a new ice age on our hands, all the while deserts are spreading on the equator. Yes, the earth will survive, but millions will be killed in the wars resulting from it. Although, the dutch will propably just let those houseboats free …

[Knut Sand]

Haha, you too? I did too, and we almost quadroupled his reps :!:
:cool:


Thank you gentlemen, and I was only armed with PC with internet connection, 3 ltrs of "Corte Federico" (Box of red, for the record; it was not even a full box), and my old HP15C (pls check the http://www.hp15c.org/ and sign the petition). Make you wonder what real men with clear minds and brains can do if they put this issue really on the table.

The travel aspect in this environmental issue is pretty interesting; they advertice for environmentaly friendly cars (new?). In my opinion;
The best you can do for the environment, is to:
stay in one place = no car.
Have an old car and not use it.
Have an old car and seldom use it (me?)
Have a new car and not use it (Hey; a new car, when will that effect from the production of that reach break even with regard to the environment, plastics, aluminiun, steel furnaces...?).
Have a new car....

Do not use planes, if you can go by train,
The CO2 gas from a car with 4 persons is probably better than if you travel by plane.. (I was stucked in a plane in fog, for 3 hours waiting for takeoff, in front of me was a folder with planes and no. of seats, engines, speed and behold; fuel consumption: I started reading, the fuel consumption was at first sight quite nice, in my opinion, but then my thoughts cleared; litres per km per seat....

Quote:
the A340-300 consumes 0.039 liter pr seat/pr kilometer. In comparison the A330-300 consumes 0.051 liter pr seat/pr kilometer.
Quote end.

Let's use 0,04 litres/ seat/ km ...: That'll be for an MD80 machine (150 person) only 6 ltr/ km. That' not bad. But here's the catch: In an hour, it travel 825 km... that's 4950 litres, pluss taxing and waiting in the air, plus the fact that they often do not travel with full capacity.

Lets assume 70% booked. That will increase fuel consumption from 0,04 ltr/ seat/ km up to 0,057 ltr/ seat/ km. My motorcycle does normally MUCH better than that, and it was never even considered the environmental issue when that was designed.

I vote for:
a non transferable personal limit for flying for all people in the industrialized part of the world, let's say x AirKm pr year.
No planing boats, no new cars with weight over 950 kg, no car engines exceeding 60 kW..

(Got your attention there..)
:D

[Knut Sand]

First of all, planes is just a part of the equation,

How about the US made it illegal to drive anything but public transport for a few months? That might be better in the long run.

Btw, all of this is about tipping the scale. If the atlantic pump stops, all of a sudden, we'll have a new ice age on our hands, all the while deserts are spreading on the equator. Yes, the earth will survive, but millions will be killed in the wars resulting from it. Although, the dutch will propably just let those houseboats free …

Sorry for quoting most of your post here:
Planes, I totally agree that thats only part of the equation, transport in total is a major factor. But I would like to get the number for CO2 released by planes in the atmosphere for let's say 1950, 1960, 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000 and present. If anybody know where that information can be collected.

US , make it illegal to use anything but public transportation? We can dream, but they're not ready for that, that's a big country, with huge distanses in som areas. Higher fuel costs?

If the atlantic pump stops... Well I already have a Skidoo... Problem will be to keep the temperature correct for the red wine.

If the climate changes comes, and are something like our worst nightmares, some of the areas that'll get the problem in their lap, also have a large no of AK47 available for their use....

And, ah, well the dutch, they'll just be floating around, setting up some taxfree zones here and there. They'll be ok.

[DanishBagger]

Yup, a planet suffering from global warming won't be the worst for a country like the Netherlands. Even if much of their country is below sea level.

I once looked up numbers where co2-numbers of planes were included, but for the life of me, I can't remember where I got those numbers.

A "funny" note: The danish ships pollute more than or on par with our planes (2 percent, IIRC) However, with that "we" also transport quite a bit of the world's goods (it's mostly A.P. Møller-Mærsk, of course).

Besides transport, you also have to factor the manufacturing of the goods themselves. Howsabout them plastic boats? Computers and toys?

Yet another ridiculous nugget: The only car I know that will fit four, and is not unreasonably old, that weighs in at under 900kg is the VW Lupo 3L which weighs 820-850kgs. Unfortunately, VW made it to shut up the "treehuggers", to prove it would be way too expensive, and there wouldn't be a market for it. They stopped making in it 2004, where Denmark (yes, that crappy little country to the south of you) took 60 percent of the production of the Lupo's off of VW's hands. However, since Denmark is hardly the basket you want to put all your eggs in, production was halted. 33km per litre. If you wonder, yes, we have one - no newer car comes close to it.

Oh, forgot: another great polluter is heat and/or airconditioning. If you won't help me force americans to use public transportation, how about forcing them to insulate their dwellings?

(one, two, three - wonder how many minutes or hours before someone will take offense?).

[Knut Sand]

(one, two, three - wonder how many minutes or hours before someone will take offense?).

Don't feed the trolls.....

:D

Btw; the Peugeot 107 (manual gear) weights 805 kg and burns 0,41 tr/ 10km (long distances, 0,55 for city driving). Not too bad either. What I'm trying to get through to people, a car like that is more freindly to the environment than a planetrip...(ehh plane-trip or planet-rip?) lets say 3 persons (75% ); (Consulting the HP15C oracle): 0,0137 ltr/seat/km.... That's way better than most planes (gliders excluded). And even with only one person aboard it is slightly better than my motorcycle (bugger).

A friend bought one, he's almost never refueling anymore...(? His own statement).

[tinhorn]

Don't feed the trolls.....

We cut the Scandinavians a little extra slack.

I don't know if we'll ever see any of those small, efficient cars here. People here started buying SUVs by the ton as soon as gas prices started getting silly.

As for other suggestions for the US....I'm told that public transportation is largely designed for criminal elements in the big cities, although I rode on an aboveground light rail train in Portland, Oregon that was pretty nice. But yeah, we do have some areas where even the small towns are few and far between.

Most houses here are pretty well insulated, too. People will even spend thousands of dollars to install custom windows with just a 200-300 year payback on energy savings.

But keep trying. You're sure to come up with some good ideas like other Scandinavian marvels such as......um......ok, I'm thinking......

I think this idea has potential: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCAG8sfhwzc You know, in a series, and with a good occupant release system.

[Knut Sand]

We cut the Scandinavians a little extra slack.

I don't know if we'll ever see any of those small, efficient cars here. People here started buying SUVs by the ton as soon as gas prices started getting silly.

Most houses here are pretty well insulated, too.

But keep trying. You're sure to come up with some good ideas like other Scandinavian marvels such as......um......ok, I'm thinking......

I think this idea has potential: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCAG8sfhwzc You know, in a series, and with a good occupant release system.

1: Buying SUV's when the gas price goes up? I thought you guys had schools?

2: Well insulated houses, good, but we all must admit that this is a global issue, I was in Singapore a few years back and the houses there had close to no insulation, and the air condition was running like hell. On the oposite side, a well insulated house, not properly made, have other drawbacks when the monsun rain or the ants comes...

3: Keep thinking I'll wait... :D

4: That idea with a potential... I noticed they were NOT speaking any scandinavian language, to think that scaled up, with lets say a bus.....:eek:

[the1much]

we all should be like brazil,,,,,NO oil imported,,,make ethanol outta suga cane,,,hehe ;) ,,,they have cars that run on both gas and suga juice. ;)

[longliner45]

everyone keeps pointing fingers at US,,,,nobody looks at china? nobody looks at Africa burning millions of acres ,,for charcoal and timber,,,,nobody looks at swAsia burning rain forest,,slash and cut,,,,,,,nobody looks at south America burning and cuttin rain forest,,,,,and these electric cars ,,,just means some body is shoveling another scoop of coal into the fire at the power plants,,,,,,cmon,,,,longliner

[the1much]

i think that everyones to blame,,even the ones trying the hardest,have only tried in the last few years,,,the damage we see now,,was caused 10 years ago,,thats why even though some restrictions have gotten tougher,,,but pollutants still go higher

[charmc]

everyone keeps pointing fingers at US,,,,nobody looks at china? nobody looks at Africa burning millions of acres ,,for charcoal and timber,,,,nobody looks at swAsia burning rain forest,,slash and cut,,,,,,,nobody looks at south America burning and cuttin rain forest,,,,,and these electric cars ,,,just means some body is shoveling another scoop of coal into the fire at the power plants,,,,,,cmon,,,,longliner

While we have many, many flaws, I suspect that USA-bashing substitutes for serious thought in the minds of far too many people all over the planet.

[Pericles]

HEAT OF THE MOMENT
31,000 scientists reject 'global warming' agenda
'Mr. Gore's movie has claims no informed expert endorses'
Posted: May 19, 2008
8:51 pm Eastern

By Bob Unruh
© 2008 WorldNetDaily


"More than 31,000 scientists across the U.S. – including more than 9,000 Ph.D.s in fields such as atmospheric science, climatology, Earth science, environment and dozens of other specialties – have signed a petition rejecting "global warming," the assumption that the human production of greenhouse gases is damaging Earth's climate."
...

"The list of scientists includes 9,021 Ph.D.s, 6,961 at the master's level, 2,240 medical doctors and 12,850 carrying a bachelor of science or equivalent academic degree."

The Petition Project's website includes both a list of scientists by name as well as a list of scientists by state.

http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=64734

http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/719126/brr-the-climate-cools-

See latest news at http://www.icecap.us/

Perry

[Knut Sand]

I did the primary "work" on the 3rd crab cooking theorem some time before Al Gore came with his movie or book, after hearing an scientist from http://www.efan.no/flodevigen/index.php intervieved on the radio, I was thinking "arrgh; here we go again..." another Messiah, Christ, we have forest fires, we have volcanoes we have ahhhrrgh you name it, it's probably a lot. But he tried to be on the track, even if the reporter was the type of "jippy, longer bathing season here in Noray" But then the reporter startet to irritate me, said something like: "c'mon on a scale from 1 to 10, how worried are you really?" (I hate it, when radio or tv reporters always try to "entertain") Answer was "9", calmly, without hesitation. And then the reporter went along to other issues like our queen having a new dress or something very important like that. Later that evening, my wife went to bed, it was too early to hit the sack for me, so I zapped through the 57 channels ("and no'thing to choose from" on the telly). Started getting bored, so that mean that there probably wasn't any new wooden boat magazine, profesional boatbuilder floating around.

So I startet "thinking", Why should he be so f** worried, heh? I can (can I?)calculate or estimate this, Ok; What factors can I ignore or what factors are vital?

Air temperature? Ok, that's a really uncertain value, cities, asphalt, wind all thes will affect it.
Soil temp? Ah... well some place there's probably some values or registrations, but not available to me.
Ok, water temp, What is the first you'll notice coming from outer space to the earth, probably water, blue, and clouds, also water but hey 1 m3 of cloud versus 1 m3 of water where's the energy? Clearly in the water.


Water has a beautiful capacity for storing energy, to increase the temperature of steel 1 deg C, you'll only need approx 1/10 of that amount of energy needed to do the same for water. For ice; approx 1/5 of the same. And the fact that water at 4 deg C is heavier than water at 0 deg C... All these facts could be a basis for a (new) religion...

So why did I believe sea temperatures had risen; well a few factors:


This fella at the radio he tried to shut up this idiot of a reporter with numbers, I don't recall those now. but he had the measured facts, ok, they might be local variations so why bother?
We had had a "incident" at Antarctica; a huge ice berg about the size of a small country were drifting, Well they probably build up, until they reach critical mass, don't they? (But then, we had...)
Reports regarding the reefs outside Australia, problems due to higher than normal sea temperatures. (But then, that's not my problem, hey, they're on the oposite side of the earth, and I don't know know any Aussies or Kiwis, I only like the wine and beer (But I,m open for improvement in that area). But hey; that's on the southern hemispfere. (Or....)
Here in Norway we have some glaciers, I'm found of sea, and mountains. (As my son at 5 years said so clearly; Mountains don't float, so they'll have to be placed on land (and if we hadn't any sea, we wouldn't have any land either)). We were visiting a glacier, and it was a lot smaller than i recalled, but hey; that might only be a local variation in that specific valley? (but then..)
Norway is full of strange people, let's face that as an undisputable fact; I mean; Norway is populated by people following the ice shelf north.. that must be caused by some genetic flaw or practical joke from God's side. One of these is Børge Ousland, He's taking trips to the Nort pole like us other taking trips to the shop for wine, he stated that his way of living(!) were probably over, as on the last trips he had had serious problems with open water. (ok there too...?)
Recently, some people say that the North west passage may be regulary used for shipping as open water is mere present there too.


I then did the math. I remenber the hair of my body sticking out, Supertramp was on the radio, they were playing "the crime of the century"...




Higher temperature, more moisture going up, that must come down, more rain, more winds, more weather, more clouds... Where will it stop?
Then I went, at the middle of the night in a protest march, all alone... (Actualy I ended up in a chair outside my house with a box of wine..).
Then I worried, what if the pendulum picks up speed, what if Africans... (I mean; we can't expect them to stay put (and behave) in their homes, when we're partly responsible for frying them, how many can we take in), what if...
I am still worried, as I see no clear solutions, as politicians everywhere are more worried about their wages, pensions, reelections...


I'm getting convinced; temperature is increasing, Some say that in the last 1000 years temperature hasn't been that high. So, in what way we, humans are causing this, or to what degree we're responsible for that, I'm not so sure again. But my question(s) is or are:

If the temperature is increasing, why should it stop doing just that?
Is somthing we're doing, even by fractions working upon this effect?
How much can we do, to work on even that little fraction?

Keep thinking...

[Pericles]

Knut,

You will agree that it is the Sun that warms the planet? From 1979 to 1998, the global temperature rose a little because of a more active Sun. Since 1998, global temperature has been falling, although CO2 has risen 20 parts per million. Shouldn't the temperature keep rising, or perhaps CO2 is only important for plant growth. Scandinavia's forests need massive volumes of CO2. Drive your SUV into the woods and rev up to grow trees. if your petrol is still affjordable. We are paying the equivalent of 11.26 Norwegian Kroner per litre.

Now, the Sunspot Cycle 24 is one year late.

http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/05/21/sunspot-cycle-more-dud-than-radiation-flood/

Latest readings. Still cooler than last year.

http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/

Sign up and eat your greens.:P :P

http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/05/19/the-32000-who-say-no-convincing-evidence/

Become Atheist.

http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/religion.htm

Live long and prosper.

Perry

[Knut Sand]

humm, Pericles I ain't as fast as you on the keyboard..

Ok, I agree that the sun is heating us, that was also what i meant by typing; "We're painting the greenhouse". There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the effect the sun has on our planet, hugely exceeds the amount of energy we humans use. Problem is, some of these gases, are pretty damaging, and we place these gases, right where they does the worst to us.

Plants absorb CO2 in daylight, but at night, they're giving some of it away again... So driving my old VW Passat out in the woods and rev it up.., not at night.

I'll keep that car until it goes to Sweden to be transferred to nails. Our gas price is approx 13 NOK and still rising (Europes highest).

A few year ago, we had problems with the Ozone layer, restrictions were introduced, this situation is alredy in control, we can do something.

So; CO2 and air in the atmosphere, Here's some values:

http://encyclopedia.airliquide.com/Encyclopedia.asp?GasID=26

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-properties-d_156.html

Thermal conductivity for CO2 is 0,01465 W/m.K

Thermal conductivity for Air is 0,0243 W/m.K

Values are from surface 1 atm, 0 deg C, different factors wil be for lower temp, lower pressure, but probably the relation will be quite similar.

So, my 5 cent here; On the sunny side of the earth, heat emission from earth is superseeded (is that the right word?) by the heat input from the sun. At night, heat loss, should have been higher, but we're putting om a blanket instead. There is a reason that CO2 were used in dual insulating glass earlier... Heat transfer properties is almost half of that for air. The total heat loss will be lower. And this is probably an self-increasing action.

We need to take this seriously.

[Pericles]

Knut,

From http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/Carbon.htm

There is no scientific theory linking carbon dioxide to the “runaway” global warming that is the basis of the calamitous predictions. The contribution of the gas to the making of a comfortable planet by the greenhouse effect is well understood, modest and self-limiting. It is only turned into a terror by computer models. These are worthless; depending as they do on extensive guesswork about the ill-understood mechanisms and interactions involved in climate, and involving so many tunable parameters and feedback factors that they could produce any desired result by appropriate tweaking. A quarter of a century ago, before science came under firm bureaucratic control, such models would have been laughed out of court.

The putative experimental evidence is equally dubious. It all sounds very impressive and scary, but on close examination tends to dissolve like the morning mist in the light of the sun. It is only recently that a small troupe of volunteers with few resources has begun a serious audit of the claims. The much vaunted “high-quality” sensor network turns out to be ramshackle almost beyond belief; the processing of the data involves inapplicable methods, glaring errors and unexplained adjustments, which all mysteriously turn out to exaggerate the desired effect. There is a morbid and obsessive secrecy among the practitioners that is quite contrary to the open nature of the scientific method, which prompts the question “What have they got to hide?” Details of publicly funded “research” are kept, quite illegally, from the public who fund it; and only the claimed results, inevitably apocalyptic, are exposed. Such data that have been wrested with great difficulty from their creators almost invariably turn out to be subject to serious dubiety.

Carbon has been framed for purely political purposes.

The effect of CO2 is not linear. Here's one reference.

http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/12/22/231145/76

Here are many more.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=CO2+effect+is+not+linear&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

I appreciate that you wish to do the right thing for living things.Just remember Earth will exist long after humans have died out.:D :D :D :D
Cold will reduce our numbers by 99% I reckon. We need warming, but we shall not get it, unless politicians end up at Tyburn Tree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyburn%2C_London

See also. http://www.climateaudit.org/index.php?

Regards,

Perry

PS

Supersede: to take over. Superseed: far too many seeds. My Norwegian is absolutely crap!

[charmc]

The mass media thrive on bad news. Reading stories by "journalists" (so few news reporters are real journalists anymore, another problem) on anything about climate, it becomes obvious that stories are slanted to promote extremes rather than provide thoughtful reporting of scientific research. As for the scientists, there appear to be "less than objective" researchers on both sides. One can argue that fossil fuel companies want research to support their businesses. One can also argue that environmental groups want research to support their view of the existence and cause of a crisis. Many of them would be out of work if there were no crisis, their grant money would dry up, etc. All the more reason to evaluate the data and methods as much as the source.

Personally, I suspect it's a lot more complex than we know yet. Geological scale cycles may be beyond our ability to measure or affect, yet research into the possible effects of industrialization and rapid population growth is important, far too important to be influenced by political considerations of either the right or the left.

No matter how large and complex our biosphere is, however, nothing justifies wasteful consumption of resources or avoidable pollution, both of which we humans are guilty of in spades. Hopefully, the current price trend in fossil fuels and basic commodities will accelerate development of alternative technologies and better consumption practices.

[safewalrus]

Bring back the 'orse and cart say I! Bit o' 'orse **** be useful for the garden too! like the guy following the parade with a bucket and spade shovelling up the 'os ****! Whaty you going to do with that asks the young lad? Why put it on my Rhubarb son sez 'e! "S'funny we normally have custard on ours!!!"

[Knut Sand]

Pericles.

What I partly like with discussions like this; It can be a chicken and egg debate :D Which of these came first the: clobal warming and then an increased level of CO2 or .an increased level of CO2 and then
clobal warming... :D

Some of these links you gave me, are not working properly... If you meant to relax me, that is.... :) I do normally trust reports and graphs where the sources are stated, or where they have a signed name. I did a check with the scientist at the radio, called him on the phone, got more details, got a few other names, called these. Their reaction was a bit puzzled, they are not used to private persons following up on their own train of thoughts. Let's change that, the news normally only give us what the brainless jounalists can understand, and then he again filter his information to have an appeal to most possible readers/ viewers.. (Christ, we're we heading..).:confused:

So; one of this links you gave me led to this:
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/058.htm

These are statements from the scientists stating how much more energy stored in the sea, in the period 1976 - 1998 (Almost at the top of the document).

1.0 +/-0,5 E23 joules is a pretty high number, higher than what I assumed in my earlier calculation... Much higher.

The no of sec in that period 22 x 365 x 24 x 60 x 60 = 693 792 000 s

Heat input (Joules for a period) divided by time (s) gives the energy input in Watts that'll be: 1,44 E14 Watts.....

Divide that by the population on this rock; 6 500 000 000 heads (or something).

We end up with an energy 22 175 watts/ head... :!: .(Must be something freakin' wrong here....? Anybody pls come up with a corrected, lower calculation...):!:

The HP15C is your true friend.

It is also true that there have been similar periods earlier, 3-4 times during the last 4000 years, all of these seem to come in periods/ intervalls. And well, our burning of fossile fuels were probably not the case on the earlier occasions. So human activity are probably far from the biggest factor here.

But heat conductivity of air/ versus CO2 is also clear, CO2 has far better insulating capasities. (I do not disagree to the fact that other gases probably have an effect also, but I tend to simplyfy, thats my way of thinking. I simplify, (than I calculate, normally with 8 digits after the comma, then I Multiply by 4 to be safe..).

CO2 levels have been way up earlier, but the top our activities may add to this curve should be as low as possible. :!: After this heating period we may enter, a colder period probably will follow. Beeing one of the decendants after the tribal lunie, following the last ice shelf north, I'm used to cold climate. And I say; lets be careful here, let's be f** ng careful here, toooo much cold, and we can park our boats (on the other hand I've alaways wanted (to have a better reason) to build a wind driven ice racer).


About air traffic (and that's only one of our causes, but who'll do something with the volcanoes):
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1309/is_3_37/ai_70654240



http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=14&pagetype=65&appid=7&mode=detail&nid=1275



http://www.domainb.com/aero/20070220_air_traffic.htm



http://www.solcomhouse.com/airtraffic.htm



http://www.sepp.org/research/scirsrch/amsairtraf.html



http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v397/n6714/full/397030a0.html



http://www.euractiv.com/en/sustainability/eu-parliament-backs-co2-cap-air-traffic/article-156587

On the eve of the Parliament's vote, the European Federation for Transport and Environment (T&E), an environmental NGO, issued a report showing a steady rise in CO2 emissions from aviation over the last decade. The report, based on figures from the European Environment Agency (EEA), says CO2 emissions from international flights increased by 85% between 1990 and 2004, an average increase of 4.5% per year. It says the increase in emissions "cancels out almost one quarter of the reductions made over the same period by other sectors in Europe under the terms of the Kyoto protocol".


And some other info:

http://www.vitalgraphics.net/climate2.cfm?pageID=8



http://www.vitalgraphics.net/climate2.cfm?pageID=5



Regards Knut

[Meanz Beanz]

To my knowledge human produced CO2 is within the variation of that produced by and adsorbed by the sea in any given year. We are a piddly little influence, we over rate our importance in the scheme of things. We should be more concerned about cleaning our act up for the sake of our lungs and the beauty of our environment. However lets not fool ourselves as to why we should be doing this and lets not destroy economies in the process.

If we think we can influence the cycle of ice ages, which is due to turn again soon, we are deluded. They happened before us and no doubt will continue after us.

[masalai]

Learn to live with whatever may happen then get on with your live - winging and wining will not change much - just your perception as a "victim" which would be all your doing/fault... I am right proper ratty at the stupidity of some of our (collective) leaders....

[Meanz Beanz]

You could always get a gun and go postal.... blame it on the meds... Jim made me do it!

[masalai]

Naaaaah, don't believe in going the gun (except mutton gun he he ) someone is bound to have a faster draw or get a lucky shot in.... & I don't like the idea of blaming others...

[Knut Sand]

:confused:

Hmm, I get the impression that maybe some of you understood me wrong here, during some of my posts.

I'm not blaming anybody, at least not any specific...:D Earth (and of course: the sun) itself is the major contributor to the climate changes, And we're on this ride wether we like it or not. But we may have some influence. Being a bit more reflective with regard to all pros and cons of burning fossile fuels and the alternatives will not hurt. A smaller car/ or engine can still get us where we want, meaning less coal shoveled into the furnaces, or at least the burning of fossile fuel is reduced to a lower lewel, and over a longer period, causing a smaller impact.

I'm not whimping and whining, just pointing out some facts, that I also considered a problem even before Al Gore becaame "popular".

I'm not a victim, never meant to be, never intend to become one. :D
I'm a contender or contributor, like most, for better or worse...
I have taken a (plane) trip to Italy (no offence, I really like Italy, big fan, even like grappa) for a meeting that lasted a couple of hours, and home to Norway the same night, with some messing about I would have managed to get a more local (DNV?) surveyor to do the same, with the same result... What can we manage with webcams? (I admit, some times there are huge advantages with the initial meetings in person).

Oh, and I'll learn to live with it, if climate changes, it will not be too much of this change in my time left, and I'm better prepared than most (live well above sea level, love swimming, love skiing, have boat, have skidoo).

Guns are not the solution....

But hey; don't you see where I'm getting in my arguments:
Gotta build boats that last (tie up the CO2), gotta build deplacement boats, or sail boats, faster boats means only that we get to the destination quicker, which again means less time spent on the water...

Smaller, cheaper car, meaning less income needed, meaning less time working, bigger displasement boat, smaller enginge, more time on the water... Less traveling by plane..... I can live with that :D :D
(this is not a description of a wictim, not as I see it at least).

[masalai]

Not you Knut, just a little piratical cross talk, as is the habit of the dungeon, Sorry....

[longliner45]

ok,,,,why is mars getting hotter?????????????????

[masalai]

No not his, hers - - Venus or the Moon, I think??

[the1much]

i didnt make ya do it,,,,but i sure didnt try ta stop ya eitha,,hehe,,,,"All Hail the "meds" hehe ;) ,,and ya know,,i dont think we're mostly to blame for the climate change,,that much,,a little,,,,,but i do think the impact we ARE doing,,,,will be evident when it comes time (as history has shown over and over) to "recover" from this change.

[Meanz Beanz]

I know the voices in my head are not real ! but they have a point! they said to say Jim made me do it.

[masalai]

Time to put the aluminum (Aluminium for those who profess to use the English language) foil helmet back on I think.....

[Meanz Beanz]

Its tin foil and its on, stops Jims thought rays dead in there tracks!

[safewalrus]

Where de avitar gone Heinz? the tin hat stop them too?

[masalai]

Mine still there and no mm.m.m .. m mm N mind control, - -- all systems - override shielding now - -- go....

[the1much]

i got a new theory,,,,,maybe disguise mind control,,in,,,,,,BEER,,,,hehe ;)
you'll all come over to the meds side soonz,,,,,he he he he ;)

[Meanz Beanz]

There we go, tin foil on the head... appy now :D

[the1much]

wowz,,,i didnt know dad had his pics on the web,,,hehe ;)
ummmm,,dad,,,your kinda late on my allowance,, :(

[safewalrus]

That's better - hey you look kinda normal now!!

[masalai]

I liked your suave Italian/Greek look best... but to "come out" may surprise everyone?

[Meanz Beanz]

Never, my stalker might recognise me!

[the1much]

i dont think most of us could look him straight in the face again if he "came out" hehe ;) :P

[masalai]

So, use your lance to prick it and let the pus out - or should some of those words be in a different order?

Very one eyed Jim... which face?/which head?

[the1much]

i liked that ugly arse monkey

[safewalrus]

Each to their own I guess

[the1much]

recycling is the answer,,,of course i cant ride a cycle,,so re'n it is really hard,,hehe ;)

[Knut Sand]

Not you Knut, just a little piratical cross talk, as is the habit of the dungeon, Sorry....


Accepted..:)

Just a few questions: who's Jim? What's he done (or made someone do)?

Some of you also hear voices? No radio, alone..? :eek:

Tin foil hat doesn't work for me.
The tinnitus ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinnitus ) bounces back, and some of the frequencies doubles (probably because of the reconnance room available, think it's the bearing wave the "men" are transmitting on). However, pulled all down, my wife thought she cold see a marginal estethic improvement, breathing was however difficult...

Never thought of it, If the foil keep frequensies outside....(Faraday's cage) If I still hear the transmissions, with the foil hat... It mean that I,m already equipped with a sender..... Inside my head...... Keep away....! :eek:

[Meanz Beanz]

Tinnitus, I recommend a bottle of Shiraz. It will not fix anything but it will make it almost bearable.

No officer... I didn't do anything. Nice full moon don't ya think, come down to the shed I have a nice lime bath I want to show you.

[masalai]

Heinz, you didn't introduce Jim... He has several persona a) from the "Goon Show", b) a friendly hippy who contributes here of occasion, c) a rabid refugee from Maine, d) A Texas oil worker, e) a restaurateur, f) a self depreciating dumb-arse with a brilliant wit, g) the sort of guy you would want on your side in a fight...plus lots more... I think he is pals with a great silver-back gorilla (they seem to go well together) I think I left out a lot of other good points but you get the drift - Is that about right Jim, and Jim, and.......

[Pericles]

DBFS!

http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/cold-irony-arctic-sea-ice-traps-climate-tour-icebreaker/

Perry:P :P :P :P :P :P

[Meanz Beanz]

Heinz, you didn't introduce Jim... He has several persona a) from the "Goon Show", b) a friendly hippy who contributes here of occasion, c) a rabid refugee from Maine, d) A Texas oil worker, e) a restaurateur, f) a self depreciating dumb-arse with a brilliant wit, g) the sort of guy you would want on your side in a fight...plus lots more... I think he is pals with a great silver-back gorilla (they seem to go well together) I think I left out a lot of other good points but you get the drift - Is that about right Jim, and Jim, and.......

Sorry....

I think that the Mesicuns got him.... gone quiet !

[Knut Sand]

DBFS!

http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/cold-irony-arctic-sea-ice-traps-climate-tour-icebreaker/

Perry:P :P :P :P :P :P

Quoted from that site:
"It seems the irony of a polar expedition to see such things as record sea ice loss being stopped cold by the very ice that doesn’t exist was not lost on the editors"

;)

Reminds of a driver's note to his insurance company; "when I drove back to my home, I took a wrong turn, ended up in a garden that's not mine, collided with a tree I don't have..."

I believe we'll see more weather, all variations, probably a lot of it also. (saw a film from a tornado, filmed recently in US, from a helicopter, f'*'ing close also, pilot and chap with camera should be subject to serious medication...

Perry, you had a reference to politicians and Tyburn..., I was wondering where I had "Tyburn" from, remembered suddenly a song by Tom Waits, where he's singing "dancing the Tyburn jig"... doesn't sound too bad, I mean; to dance (i can't dance).... until I remembered what Tyburn (square?) was used as....
:eek:

[Manie B]

Mas good one on the1:D
i can add very entertaining reading always:D

[Guillermo]

The mass media thrive on bad news. Reading stories by "journalists" (so few news reporters are real journalists anymore, another problem) on anything about climate, it becomes obvious that stories are slanted to promote extremes rather than provide thoughtful reporting of scientific research. As for the scientists, there appear to be "less than objective" researchers on both sides. One can argue that fossil fuel companies want research to support their businesses. One can also argue that environmental groups want research to support their view of the existence and cause of a crisis. Many of them would be out of work if there were no crisis, their grant money would dry up, etc. All the more reason to evaluate the data and methods as much as the source.

Personally, I suspect it's a lot more complex than we know yet. Geological scale cycles may be beyond our ability to measure or affect, yet research into the possible effects of industrialization and rapid population growth is important, far too important to be influenced by political considerations of either the right or the left.

No matter how large and complex our biosphere is, however, nothing justifies wasteful consumption of resources or avoidable pollution, both of which we humans are guilty of in spades. Hopefully, the current price trend in fossil fuels and basic commodities will accelerate development of alternative technologies and better consumption practices.
Wise as always, Charlie.

Cheers.

[the1much]

well ya knowz,,sometimes us happy ******** hippies just need ta get away,,hehe,,woooohooo i had the weekend off,,and today was my 5 year olds "graduation" from pre-kindergarten...hehe,,wow she thinks she a big girlhehe ;)
And Mas,,,Thank-You as usual,,,i only have tokens,,hehe,,,now it gonna take my ole lady 3 days of reading to me before i catch up,,,damned,,hehe ;)

[masalai]

Well I am not impressed, no climate change here - raining like billyooo out to sea and just enough to wet the concrete footpath but not enough to create any run-off and relatively warm at 17 deg Celsius and 06:41am on Thursday... so you Saffas (fanie) take note I can tell it as it is - honestly.... and you lot ant today yet - you is still yesterday.... my ASIO (Aussy secret wankers) - affiliation has been terminated with the fbi & cia so I can't see your local weather or home 'cept in google earth - I would like some of those gold coins being buried in the back garden 6 doors down---- I think?

How am I gonna get some of that rain if there is persistent wind-shear by the westerly jet stream knocking the tops of any potential rain-cloud forming up.... 50odd kph south easterly bringing fresh moisture (clouds) low off the warm ocean, to be knocked off and sent back by the higher winds in the opposite direction

[the1much]

wut ta hell is rain!?,,,it rained here the otha day for like 30 seconds,,been 90F-103F here for 2 weeks,,today was cool though,,low 90's.,,man when is the next ice age?,,i can handle cold better,,,,is easier to stay warm then to stay cool:( ;)

[Pericles]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal#Liquefaction_-_Coal-To-Liquids_.28CTL.29

"Coal (underground) fires in China burn 109 million tonnes of coal a year, emitting 360 million metric tons of carbon dioxide. This amounts to 2-3% of the annual worldwide production of CO2 from fossil fuels, or as much as emitted from all of the cars and light trucks in the United States."

http://www.ehponline.org/docs/2002/110-5/forum.html
http://www.itc.nl/personal/coalfire/activities/sub/coalman.html

Puts things into perspective somewhat?

Check out latest at http://www.icecap.us/

Perry

[Pericles]

Coal fire in China.

[Knut Sand]

"Coal (underground) fires in China burn 109 million tonnes of coal a year, emitting 360 million metric tons of carbon dioxide. This amounts to 2-3% of the annual worldwide production of CO2 from fossil fuels,

huh? A waste of energy, resources and a environmental catastrophe.

Soooo, lets zeee:


We put those fires out, tricky but pussible.
We stop all cars in the USA for a year, possible. they're close to bankrupt already
.
We have 6 % down...

We close the wells in the North Sea (at least those with flares). We Norwegians are only spending the money on a new operahouse, while it probably would be cheaper to send all opera interested people in Noreay to Sidney, all expenses paid....
Mother of all oils fields are already weakening.
We spread the word that body cavities can hold 100 - 200 grams of C4, you need a (tampered) plastic lighter as a trigger device. When body cavity searh becomes obligatory... The plane traffic will then be reduced to an absolute minimum.


There's hope....:D

[Meanz Beanz]

Hope...?

Have you any fecking idea what that will do? We are headed to WIII over energy. No green namby pamby fluffy feel good ideas are going to cut it here. We need some serious scalable energy solutions in a hurry. Sorry to burst the bubble but a little bit of CO2 is the last of our worries, that's a middle class western neurosis that will be thrown out in a desperate struggle for energy over the next two decades, a struggle for which we are not in the slightest bit prepared. Wake up smell the coffee... its already to late to prevent violence over this issue the time scales to implement change are already longer than we have. Forget the CO2 ********e that has been foisted on us and start looking at what happens to our "cheap energy" dependant lifestyles as energy supply tightens. People will fight, starve and die over this issue..... you just don't realise quite how desperate it really is yet.

[Meanz Beanz]

Apologies... just getting to the point where I have to scream....

We just don't get it yet... this is do or die stuff and its right on the horizon... now!

[Knut Sand]

"No green namby pamby fluffy feel good ideas are going to cut it here"

That was before you yelled, got my attention.... Sorry if you got the idea that I didn't take this issue seriously. I once said that we're probably past the point where a democratic solution is possible...

So; Ok, no apologies needed.

As I see it, we have 2 major problems;
CO2 and all that environmental stuff.
Energy, we need clean available energy fast, and enough of it.

2 issues, related.

Climate changes will force people to move, in large numbers, some won't bother to bring their passport, some may come with AK47's...

The fight over energy sources will also be a possible source for large scale armed conflicts... As usual.

Man, this night I'm gonna pour myself a big one.....

[Manie B]

Well well - from the deep south here

it is frightening how suddenly things can change

technically we are a war zone already over food and energy

http://www.24.com/news/?p=tsa&i=929158

and all of this in five miserable months (=5 only months)

RSA used to have a problem called APARTHEID
it was unfair, 80% of the population had no vote
the "struggle" was to get the vote = power

we had an abundance of power, water and food
we exported food, coal, gold and and and

RSA now has a new 80% representative Government
for 14 lousy miserable years only
now we have no food - no electricity - no waste disposal
and we officially cannot cope with the "people"


our dams are full full full
not enough farming
why
kill the farmer - kill the boer
they will steal it or burn it and still they starve of hunger

we used to say "Africa is not for sissies"

we can now offcially say "Africa is for idiots"

i am sure that there are many rotten spots all over the world, guess what - you just got another

just when you didnt need it

[tinhorn]

While I don't doubt the seriousness of the situation, the rapid increase in gas prices WILL put a damper on wastefulness in the US, I hope. When I go to the big city, I see huge vehicles carrying ONE person clogging the expressways. That's absurd! My immediate concern is for the screwing that fixed-income folks are going to take on heating oil this coming winter. I sure hope they're smart enough to be stocking up now, or replacing their fuel stoves and furnaces.

I've reduced my own gasoline consumption to just a few gallons a week by putting dozens of miles on my bicycle. Seldom rode it before, but it's kind of fun! I need a basket or something, though. Hard to juggle a six-pack on a bike.

I get a kick out of Knut Sand's proposed solutions. It's much easier to understand twisted Norwegian humor than dry British humor.

[tinhorn]

Well well - from the deep south here

it is frightening how suddenly things can change

technically we are a war zone already over food and energy

http://www.24.com/news/?p=tsa&i=929158

and all of this in five miserable months (=5 only months)


Unbelievable, Manie. I clicked a few links to other news stories as well. Simply unbelievable.

[Manie B]

and so after 27 years they still blame colonialism

he he he

you see you silly buggers;)
it will always be your fault;)

Chinamasa blamed a third force for the political violence in Zimbabwe, saying it was clear that the British and American government were encouraging the violence.


only one teeny weeny problem
Zimbabwe has got nuttin
no oil - no maize for bio
no nuttin
(used to have tobacco = so out of fashion)

hey hey please send more money
U2 and bono and sir bob geldof whatever
please send more money

ground control to mayor tom
please keep engines on
here i am sitting in my tin can
far far away

i think i am also gonna make a tin foil hat
who the hell suggested that on this forum

http://www.24.com/news/?p=tsa&i=929381

hang on guys climate change is here
maybe not in the shape or form that you expected
batten down the hatches
triple reef the main
up with the storm jib
cast your series drogue
big storms up ahead

i will buy you a beer on the other side

[Meanz Beanz]

What will become apparent in the near future is that very few governments understand just how rapid the drop off in cheap energy will be. The technologies used to pump these wells increase the rate at which they are produced but also ensure the production drop off is dramatic when it comes. Mexico will export its last barrel of oil in just 6 years. I know that we have alternates but it takes a decade to get a well online if we start tomorrow. Most large scale energy solutions take one to two decades to put in place and we have not started yet! This is a liquid fuel issue, we have 100 years of infrastructure, transport, production and food systems that rely on liquid fuel. The point I am trying to make is that none of this can be changed rapidly, no where near as rapidly as the decline in production will be as it arrives and that alternates like coal to liquid, tar sands or even conventional oil take longer to get in place than we have here. Demand destruction will help a little but the production fall off will more than offset that, not to mention the Asian influence. This is not so much a lack of energy problem as a lack of the right sort of energy in a timely fashion. Its the gap between problems arising and our constrained ability to respond that is the major issue. Even if that gap is only a handful of years people will starve, economies will get pummeled and in all probability people will fight.

SA is probably a case study in many ways, we can point at their mismanagement yet it will become apparent that the west has not managed the issue all that well either. As Manie says the change can be surprisingly fast, seriously how many of you have been surprised by the rapid change in food and fuel so far this year? Its just a shot over the bows...

This should be the discussion on our T.V.s, not CO2.... solve this issue and you can solve our real or unreal CO2 issues... neglect this issue and saving your skin will be the priority.

I'm stunned at our leaders complacency and I know they know. How you ask? Howard went to visit Bush a while back. When he came back nuclear was on the agenda, energy was a sudden focus and we where even upping subsides on car LPG conversions... Bush put the wind up him over energy and rightly so. Bush also has a completely energy independent ranch and he is not the only one. They also know they can't sell the issue and the changes required to the people until it becomes critical. When it becomes critical we have run out of time to avoid the gap in continuous supply.

This has become a simple logistics issue over and above a technology issue.

End of rant....

Here's to hoping that stupid Ape is so far wide of the mark its funny!

No more yelling.... promise...mebe. :D :rolleyes:

[Guillermo]

You guys are getting too serious. Just to relax a bit, look what I've found when searching internet around on your postings' themes:

http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/nasa_phoenix_lander_weather-rock-520.jpg

"The Telltale is a passive wind indicator for the 2007 NASA Phoenix lander developed and constructed at the Mars Simulation Laboratory at the Aarhus University.

The Telltale consists of a gallows that is mounted on the top of the Meteorological Mast of the Lander. The active element of the instrument is an extremely lightweight Kapton tube hanging in Kevlar fibres. Images taken of the instrument will show the deflection of the Telltale due to the wind. A mirror is mounted below the active part to enable better direction information."

Cheers :)

[masalai]

I think the "ape" is closer to the mark than many other posters.... - may make an ape of many others he he he

[DanishBagger]

You guys are getting too serious. Just to relax a bit, look what I've found when searching internet around on your postings' themes:

http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/nasa_phoenix_lander_weather-rock-520.jpg

"The Telltale is a passive wind indicator for the 2007 NASA Phoenix lander developed and constructed at the Mars Simulation Laboratory at the Aarhus University.

The Telltale consists of a gallows that is mounted on the top of the Meteorological Mast of the Lander. The active element of the instrument is an extremely lightweight Kapton tube hanging in Kevlar fibres. Images taken of the instrument will show the deflection of the Telltale due to the wind. A mirror is mounted below the active part to enable better direction information."

Cheers :)

Yes, that NASA wind sensor was invented and made here in Denmark at Aarhus University. Finally, we danes have something to be proud of!! LOL

[the1much]

we make cheap sensors where im from,,,we stick our head out the door,,,tells ya just how the wind is blowing every time,,hehe ;)

[Meanz Beanz]

Ya know the last time I was screaming about summin was back in 92, can't even remember what it was now... the inter...summin. Anyways the guys I was werking with laughed at it, not sure they are werkin now to tell ya the truth. Anyway this chit knocks that chit into a cocked hat.... serious, nah! Anways I'm just buying better quality meds so that I can keep the smile up fur as long as possible... here... hand me that straight jacket, I'm gunna need it. :D

[the1much]

if i pass you mine,,,i'll need to rent it to ya,,,they charge me by the month fer mine,,hehe ;)
i think the last time me and 1 of these so called "genius's" had a convo,,,,,ummmm,,,,where are they now?,,,hehe ;)
i may not know how ta read-n-right,,hehe,,but when it comes to "businesses scams",,i'm pretty sure i know 2MUCH ,and when i start asking "common sense" questions,,,,all that "math" doesnt help,,is easy talking round stuff using "science",,but when ya need to answer in "little words" ya cant use the "avoidance" method,,,,hehe ;)

[safewalrus]

Well if thats the alternative it's head back in the sand for me! Us little old fish eaters don't like that ****!!

[Knut Sand]

This should be the discussion on our T.V.s, not CO2.... solve this issue and you can solve our real or unreal CO2 issues... neglect this issue and saving your skin will be the priority.

No more yelling.... promise...mebe.[/SIZE] :D :rolleyes:


Keep yelling....
You do your part of it,
I'll do mine (continue with the 1 man demonstration walks):
You do have to agree that continuing to use fossil fuel at to day's level/ rate, will bring us close to breakdown (DONT YELL, I know you mean that's this wars are made of..).

So (nag nag nag);
Smaller cars, lesser energy and materials used in building that car, lesser fuel burnt using that car, still better to find some clean alternatives (can buy some time). I'm not saying cars are the main problem, just (again) pointing out an easy solution that will work (for us, as long as not all Chineese, Indian people wants the same as us...(oh ****))

Air traffic... An average increase the last 30 years at 3-5% !! Hey that's a lot, In Norway we can get tickets to more central parts of Europe for 100 euros, Fuel for planes are not taxed as much as other fossile fuels (at least not here in Norway). Just because we have the means to do something, doesn't mean we have the right to do it. I mean, why should we Norwegians travel to Paris/ London /Newcastle for shopping...? (Ok I could do it for: Wine; Paris, Bitter/ stout; London, Nukiebrawn; NC). Too low prices on the fuel, wether its for a plane or a car will result in a level of use that we can't accept for too long.

(I was now suddenly too cynical and posted almost the following; But if we manage to rise the sea level fast enough, we may be able to reduse the population thus making the need for fossuile fuel slightly lower, but then I remembered; those with cars can still drive away even uphill... But I didn't post this)

One night when I'm bored (and have some wine again, but my wife have put a padlock on the cabinet.. ) I'll try to estimate the thickess of CO2 layer, in planes height... I mean, how tricky can it be? I was only wrong by a factor of 4 on my last attempt, and even that result scared me:( .

And the TV part....
Gray's anatomy, desperate housewives, Total sillycone makeup, top model (I have a inhouse teenager, that keeps me as a pet.....). God gimme some patience to endure.... (I like movies with simple solutions for complex problems, and no "in the next episode") But I mean it; this burning of fossile fuels at this rate, the scenario we may face, and the environmental issues, should be prime time, and also an issue for our "leaders" (hark,krmt. leader...where? Normally they do not have a memory span longer than past the last election..). And reality was never a thing they needed to bother with in the politic camps they participated in, where they "bonded", paved their way into the politic, with no other working experiece than from the above mentioned TV programs....

Is it ok for me to puke?

Logging off.....

[Meanz Beanz]

http://www.cheatneutral.com/

Watch the vid.... shows just how smart some of the T.V. host are!

[the1much]

im gonna pay em ta take my grandmother out,,,,,hey,,,if you guys send me money,,ill offset your bad spending habits,,by spending THAT money on me,,,in a VERY "good" sense of the word,,WOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOO
hehe ;)

[Knut Sand]

dobbel post...
Sorry
will happen again, errors are made while we read

[Knut Sand]

Ok...That does it, I like the padding on the walls here, keep the silence in, its ok here. But;
nothing works here
nothing ever works here
the medication doesn't work...
They even supplied my room with a faulty dor, nor doorknob on the inside, idiots, imbesils, not pride in thir work...

[masalai]

Well, cheating.com could be a moneyspinner, at 2.5 British Pounds per cheat - lets assume the website keeps 50P for each, that means the 9002 non-cheaters should have received 14.6 Pounds each and the business proprietors some 65, 768 times 50P or 32,884 pounds Sterling gross..... I wonder if that would work in USA - Something for the1 to get going - beats being a kitchen hand..... $64ooo not bad for a bit of Hutzspah.....

[Pericles]

If there are any American or Canadian boaters posting here, who are looking for an explanation as to where the Spring weather has gone, here are a number of links. The first link displays a map depicting temperatures for May 2008 in the USA. Cold isn't it?

http://icecap.us/images/uploads/May_2008_Was_Another_Cold_Month.pdf

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2008/05/30/the-deniers-our-spotless-sun.aspx

http://www.intellicast.com/Community/Content.aspx?ref=rss&a=130

Become a Sol gazer at:

http://solarcycle24.com/

Global Warming, bah, humbug!:P :P :P

Perry

[the1much]

not cold here,,,in fact texas (west texas) is headed for a record breaking year,,this week alone we shattered a bunch of old ones,,,been over 100 here for a week straight,,no let up for at least another week,,,,oh,,,and no damned rain.

[DanishBagger]

I'm actually a bit worried, that someone citing "global warming" choses to find some more or less random US temperatures to "disprove" global warming.

Oh, and we just had yet another temperature record in this country (Denmark). The most sunny hours in the month of may since we began measuring such things. Sweden just had the warmest may day ever.

Perry, we may not be entitled to our own facts, but then again, people shouldn't be selective with their facts in order to make them fit with your own conclusion.
;-)

[Meanz Beanz]

But we are warming, the globe does that just before ice ages.... I wonder if I can buy cold offsets, ice offsets or some such thing?

[the1much]

i should get an offset for being a hippie,,,,"we've" loved our earth since 1965,,hehe ;)

[Knut Sand]

But we are warming, the globe does that just before ice ages.... I wonder if I can buy cold offsets, ice offsets or some such thing?

:D :D :D

But Pericles do have a point which we shold look into (by calculators and brains) before we dismiss it completely....

You all know where my opinion is, but we will not be making any good judgements before we're willing to look at both side of the arguments...

I think... That the CO2 around equator will insulate, causing mostly night temperatures to be higher, heat loss at daytime can be partly neglected in comparison with the energy from the sun: Then, secondly, day temperatures will rise also.
Evaporation will increase, mainly in the middle part of the earth, due to higher temperatures, It will have to fall down somewhere colder, that means winds and rain. (the last autumn/ winter here...) Coming higher up/ down on this globe, the CO2 Layer will act "thicker" reducing the heating effect from the sun (hitting the atmosphere with an angle), but still acting like an insulation layer in the night time. Which again can explain more ice/ snow/ rain in the winter time.

Right now the weather here in Norway is beautiful, warm and sunny, but, on the other hand:

It's only 2 days since I broke one of my cross country skies, I've never managed to do something like that in this time of the year earlier. And the1much complains about the temperature.:p Only about 50 cm of snow around my cabin now, but somwhere on the road up there, there's 3 meter of snow (measured vertically, not horizontally...).

On the other end of that again; if Pericles had known me for a period; he would simply pointed out the fact that I have gained some (useless) bodymass recently, and that the possible climate change can not be responsible for that... :D

[masalai]

Here is what I think.... Got the inclination to read some 126 pages of this pdf file you will download?
http://www.the-end.com/2008GodsFinalWitness/2008_Gods_Final_Witness.pdf
Have faith...

[Pericles]

And then there are some really stupid fools. Read about this pratt.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7430684.stm

***kin' rsole

[DanishBagger]

And then there are some really stupid fools. Read about this pratt.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7430684.stm

***kin' rsole

I agree. One could call deniers all sorts of things (which, I'll refrain from, of course ;)), but he has definately crossed a line there by a mile or four.

[the1much]

but as always,,,even the "over doing it" dude has some reasoning to his thoughts,,,,,,me,,,i think ANYONE that ignores ANY harm comming to this world,,climate change,,pollution,,nuclear waste dumps,,,,and many more,,,,but ANYONE that ignores,,or cast it off to something THEY cant fix,,,is a child abuser,,,and not only their children,,,but MINE.,,thats not to say we're all greenies,,or greenpeace geeks,,but,,to dismiss it ALL because someone cant put enough numbers or "science" behind it this very minute,,,,does nothing but set us up,,,to drop off our FLAT earth,,,,it is flat right?,,cause all i've ever seen of the earth is from T.V. ,,and we all know ya can show ANYTHING on t.v.,,,and other then that all i got is a bunch of scientists telling me its NOT flat.,,,hmmm
hehe ;)

[Dan Ellison]

Who's right who's wrong , bla bla bla, your using energy with this BULL, HA!

[the1much]

my energy is a renewable resource,,hehe ;) ,,
and we're not trying to find out who's wrong or right,,,jus a plain ole conversation. hehe ;)

[tinhorn]

But it is a serious topic, 1. I've changed my perspective on this issue (as well as others, such as nuclear) from learning more from folks just like you guys. I appreciate the civility with which we can poke one another's viewpoints as we try to figure out exactly WHO is BSing us.

[the1much]

ya,,being able to "argue""toss around""banter",,amongst "ourselves" is how ya tell REAL boaters,,,from idiots that OWN a boat.,,hehe ;)
and even though we may not agree with someones post,,,,we RESPECT that post,,,then reply,,,,our climate,,our planet,,our lives, are important to each of us,,and therefore "your life" is important to "us"
;)

[Knut Sand]

we RESPECT that post,,,then reply,,,,our climate,,our planet,,our lives, are important to each of us,,and therefore "your life" is important to "us"
;)

couldn't agree more...
And more important "to our childrens children"...
(as an ex (?) hippie, do you remember that album? I was tooo slow (approx by 10 years) to be a hippie).

You can figure that one out while I hit the sack :D

[the1much]

remember it,,,,i have about 30,000 hippie songs on my puter,,hehe ;)
and im still a hippie,,not an ex ,,,like smoking cigs,,,,,,mom said "never be a quitter",,hehe ;)

[longliner45]

never be a quitter,,,,I like that ,longliner

[Meanz Beanz]

Hippie dried and crushed smokes well... :D

[the1much]

hehe,,they gonna put certain "parts" of me ,,after i die (no,,,THAT1 not good nuff they said) up on ebay ,,,,man i hope some "chong" gets me,,,not a "cheech",,hehe ;)

[Pericles]

Wherever I look, I see more evidence of the deception promoted by extreme environ MENTAL ists. However, the tide is turning against AGW claptrap.

A recent Gallop poll (May 29, 2008) concludes:

When asked their views on when the effects of global warming will begin to happen, 61% of Americans currently say "they have already begun to happen." This is a modest increase from 1997, when only 48% gave this response. However, while over three-fourths of Democrats (76%) believe global warming is already happening, only 41% of Republicans share that view. The resulting 35-point gap stands in stark contrast to 1997, when nearly identical percentages of Republicans and Democrats (47% and 46%, respectively) indicated that global warming was already happening. Thus, despite all of the attention given to global warming in the media, including coverage of the IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change) reports, Republicans have become less likely over the past decade to believe that global warming is occurring.

http://www.webcommentary.com/asp/ShowArticle.asp?id=websterb&date=080606

The lengths to which some of the deranged will go, is exemplified by Seattle Parks Board new policy. What a bunch of nitwits!!

http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/06/06/no-more-singing-around-the-campfire-too-much-c02/

Regards,

Perry

[DanishBagger]

A gallup poll? You consider a poll to be "evidence of deception"? And you're basing that on what? That less republicans believes in global warming?

I am willing to bet, that MORE republicans than democrats believes that hurricanes and flooding are the wrath of God, that the earth is 6000 years old and so forth.

How does that prove anything about any "deception by the environmentalist" is going on?

I don't get it Perry, you're not being logical here.

[safewalrus]

didn't realise the whole global thingy was about logical? WOW! that does open it up - a lot..........

[tinhorn]

The lengths to which some of the deranged will go, is exemplified by Seattle Parks Board new policy. What a bunch of nitwits!!

http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/06/06/no-more-singing-around-the-campfire-too-much-c02/

You're from London, so it's excusable that you don't know just how insane some of the young, Earth Shoe-wearing, trust fund babies in Seattle are. I'm in the same state as these zealots, and I wish to apologize to the world on behalf of the State of Washington for having taught them how to write.

There were some amusing responses to that article, though:

Why don’t they ban planting trees, because trees could later be burned in fires, which would contribute to global warming?
-----------------------
I offset my emissions by making sure that most of the things I buy are made from plastic or at least wrapped in plastic. Then, instead of wasting precious power recycling the plastic, I take it to the local rubbish dump where it is subterraneanly sequestered. No Guilt at all. Might sound stupid but then Al Gore says some pretty stupid things and look how rich he is getting.
-----------------------
I trust they will ban jogging in the parks; it generates unecessarily large amounts of CO2.
-----------------------
There is a simple solution — the Seattle Parks and Recreation department can sell bonfire carbon credits and require that all bonfire participants use Bloomsberry Climate Change Chocolate to make their Smores.
-----------------------
We should compel people to dress in white to raise the earth’s albedo.

I fought global warming today. I took a sheet of white paper and put it out in the back yard. I sat there and started to calculate. what if everyone did this?
what if we all worked to increase albedo. !

albedo mania.

Then I thought. remember when I was a kid.
And every back yard had acres of white undies flapping on clotheslines?
rememeber that? ( hehe)

Think of the lost albedo! We used to dry our tighty whities on the clothesline.
For free! Acres of white surface! we were saving the planet! Now we build nasty coal plants to dry tiny thongs in nasty appliances.

Every inch of white surface diminishes global warming. It’s true. Google it. albedo. Everyone should wear white clothes, and dry giant white granny panties on clotheslines . or go commando.

Next I put a reflector in the bed of my pickup truck. By my calculatons
the Truck is now carbon neutral. It’s carbon emissions are offset by its albedo contribution. I did the math. Phil Jones has the data. ask him for it.

The tin foils hats some people wear also offset global warming.
-------------------------
And wait! Solar panels are dark! They decrease albedo. We’ve got a bigger problem now.
-------------------------
“I was under the impression that wood was a renewable energy source generally called BIOMASS - therefore it doesn’t contribute to Global Warming when used an as energy source. Or have the rules changed?”

You see, comments like this just prove how incapable of solid reasoning skills deniers are. You see, when you burn wood, it creates fire. Fire is hot. Hot things generate heat. Heat makes things warmer. Thus, it only stands to reason that all these fires have contributed to global warming.

Please try and think all these things through before posting.

(And lest I be reprimanded, yes that was sarcasm)
-------------------------
A long time ago, in a century far, far away, it was the concensus that cats caused bubonic plague. So the learned people of those days decided to kill cats to solve the problem. The idea that the problem had been identified and was being corrected blinded those same learned people from finding the real cause and then taking a more proper course of action. Could CO2 be the medival cat for our time?

[safewalrus]

what??????

[Pericles]

Danish,

"Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early 21st century's developed world went into hysterical panic over a globally averaged temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and, on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to contemplate a roll-back of the industrial age." -- MIT Professor Richard Lindzen, PhD, Atmospheric Science

Here is some of the fall out, following the crushing of an environMENTAList cap and trade bill that was before the US Senate.
"Environmentalists are stunned that their global warming agenda is in collapse. Senator Harry Reid has all but conceded he lacks the vote for passage in the Senate and that it's time to move on. Backers of the Warner-Lieberman cap-and-trade bill always knew they would face a veto from President Bush, but they wanted to flex their political muscle and build momentum for 2009. That strategy backfired. The green groups now look as politically intimidating as the skinny kid on the beach who gets sand kicked in his face.
...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121269184525849383.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Stephen Wilde has been a Fellow of the Royal Meteorological Society since 1968. The first five articles from Mr Wilde were received with a great deal of interest throughout the Co2 Sceptic community.

In Stephen Wilde’s sixth and exclusive article for CO2Sceptics.Com he considers that the IPCC have failed to carry out any risk analysis for the potential for global cooling instead of global warming and that a repeat of the Little Ice Age a mere 400 years ago would cause mass starvation worldwide.

http://co2sceptics.com/news.php?id=1396

The land that became the British Isles only became partially habitable from about 15,000 BP. Mesolithic hunters arrived and walked to Ireland to Scotland and also up what would become the east coast of England, having walked up the Atlantic coast from the ice age refuge in Northern Spain. (Hence we are all Galicians, Guillermo agrees!) :D :D

http://www.bloodoftheisles.net

The Scandinavian peninsula became habitable between 7,000 and 6,000 BP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_glacial_period#Weichsel_glaciation.2C_in_Scandinavia_and_northern_Europe

Our present Interglacial Period is already longer than previous episodes in prehistory. Ice is coming to a town near you, soon.:D :D :D

Regards,

Perry

[Guillermo]

Hence we are all Galicians.....


Ei, carballeira...!!!! :D :D :D

(For all of you who have forgotten your Galician roots: This is a Galician Ethnic Shouting)

[Guillermo]

An interesting paper here:
"Multi-scale analysis of global temperature changes and trend of a drop in temperature in the next 20 years"
By Lin Zhen-Shan and Sun Xian
The School of Geographic Sciences, Nanjing Normal University, Nanjing, P. R. China

http://www.crikey.com.au/Media/docs/Zhen-Shan--Xiuan-MeteorAtmosPhys-2007-d1227bc1-3183-456f-a935-69c263af1904.pdf

From there:

"Though they do not contain the quasi-11a period relative to sun radiation, IMF2 component of the global and N(orthern)H(emisphere) temperature presents a quasi 11-year oscillation before 1900 and after 1980.
......
Now that the trend of global and NH temperature has arrived at the peak and their IMF4 have been cooling since this century, we tend to conclude that global temperature shows a falling tendency on 20–60-year timescales in the next 20 years.
......
And again, our primary conclusion, i.e., that atmospheric CO2 concentration is not a key determinant of periodic variation of the global temperature. The global climate warming is not solely affected by the CO2 greenhouse effect. The best example is temperature obviously cooling however atmospheric CO2 concentration is ascending from 1940s to 1970s. Although the CO2 greenhouse effect on global climate changes is unsuspicious, it could have been excessively exaggerated. It is high time to re-consider the global climate changes. We consider that CO2 greenhouse effect impact on the trend of global temperature, simultaneity we expect to find the effect on climate change on different timescales by analysis the solar activity, earth movement (nutation, rift and volcano activity) and the others greenhouse gases using EMD method."


Cheers.

[TollyWally]

"I'm in the same state as these zealots, and I wish to apologize to the world on behalf of the State of Washington for having taught them how to write."

I too must apologize!

[Knut Sand]

Interesting reading Guillermo.

Cooling the next 20 years. Right now we have the best weather we can imagine here in Norway, a bit windy, right here, right now, maybe...

The fig 4 and the fig 6 show that the CO2 level (fig 4), have had a steady rise since 1960 and an extremely rise since 1990's. There is a drop in CO2 from 1940 to 1960, which I wonder somewhat about...

Temperature (fig 6) show that they assume a drop in the temperature to come, now. Well; If I use my imagination on that one, assume that the temperature drop will be something like for the period 1040 - 1960 let's assume 0,5 °C. And since the variables also tend to increase; lets add another 0,1 °C to that again... The average impression (for me) is still a pretty steep increasing line. I've never said that we can rule out forest fires, volcanoes, sun spots, solar activity. But I think we're puttin our (significant) mark at the climate in addition to the natural variations.

Then again; there was a temp drop from 1940 and there was a CO2 drop in the same period. Was there any activities going on at that time that can explain this fall? Some volcanoes that didn't erupt? Some forest fires that didn't burn, solar activities? I was trying to think of the WWII as a factor, but couldn't think of anything but fires and weapons and fires there too.... That should surely increase the level of CO2. Then maybe.... A large scale war is also a battle of resources, steel, oil.... factories? The average man on the street didn't get around to fill gas all the time, transport was kept at a "minimum", that's a normal reaction to subs with an unfriendly attitude. So, can it be that due to this, the average consumption went down? In fact, enough to cause this drop?

I do not know, as perfect as I am, I still haven't figured that one out....:D But I think we can pretty much choose to which level we will put our mark on the climate (changes).

On the other hand, the way we use these days...:
If I live to be a 110, I assume that I'll hear this from one of my childrens children; "What?? you used oil to make plastic bags of them, to carry stuff home from the shop, and you used them only once??? And you used gas , even only to go for a spin??:rolleyes:

[Pericles]

Knut,

What's your opinion of this conclusion.

"The whole of modern civilisation has been made possible by a period of solar stability within a band of less than 4 Watts per square metre. It will not be a result of anything we do if solar changes suddenly go outside that band. On a balance of probability it is more likely that the TSI will soon drop back from the recent unusual highs but remaining within the band of 4 Watts per square metre. It would need the arrival of the next ice age to go significantly below 1363 but even a reduction down to 1365 from present levels could introduce a dangerous level of cooling depending on where the tipping point currently lies.

A period several decades of reduced solar activity will quickly need more emissions producing activity to SAVE the planet yet nonetheless the populations of most living species will be decimated. At present population levels a repeat of the Little Ice Age a mere 400 years ago will cause mass starvation worldwide. Does anyone really think that the CO2 we produce is effective enough to reduce that risk to zero when we have plenty of astronomic evidence of an imminent reduction in solar activity?

And, moreover, the real world temperature movements are currently a good fit with the solar driver theory both as regards the warming spell, the subsequent stall and the recent turn downwards.

The AGW risk analysis process (if anyone ever bothered with one) is seriously flawed."

See full article here. http://co2sceptics.com/news.php?id=1396

Regards,

Perry

[safewalrus]

Hell Guillermo and we thought the dark skins and black hair came with the wreck of the Armada!! didn't realised it was because you had walked here!! Damn Celts get everywhere! Actually I have believed that the 'seventh' Celtic Nation was Galicia, (the other six being - Eire, Caledonia, Mann, Kernow, Cymry, Britany) Welcome to the tribe - brother!!

[Pericles]

The sun has a total luminosity output of 386 YottaWatts
(386,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 watts)

The significance of which may be read at http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/

Regards,

Perry

SF, Guillermo should be welcoming the other Celts to his original Galician group, rather than Kernow welcoming him.:D :D :D

It’s Official: British (a.k.a. America’s Founders) Not Diverse At All

By Steve Sailer

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2007/04/blood-of-isles.html

[Knut Sand]

The sun has a total luminosity output of 386 YottaWatts
(386,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 watts)

The Vikings/Normans were incredibly dangerous—their conquests ranged from the Volga to North America, from Greenland to Sicily—for the paradoxical reason that during the Dark Ages they cooperated with each other better than their less ferocious victims did. (To defend against Viking raids, Europeans eventually evolved feudalism, the fundamental institution of the Middle Ages, to support the expensive knights in shining armor needed to rapidly mobilize and defeat a Viking raid.)




Well, that can't all be hitting us like that, 386 E24 Watts...
Earth is 12 600 000 m in diameter. 1,25 E14 m2 directed towards the sun at all times.

So if you divide the Energy on the area of land, that will give me 3,1 E12 Watt/ M2 (3 100 000 000 000 W/M2) Standard cooking plate is approx 20 cm across. That again would be hit by 9,7 E10 Watt. Ooops, that would boil 1 Litre of water (20° - 100°) in 0,0000034 seconds? Better get an umbrella, cover it with aluminium foil...

It's probably the total energy from the sun (maybe over some period) but the site you quote have in fact a discussion on that figure, sorry for the cheap argument.:D Just couldn't let it pass....:D

To get that more accurate, I think we should consider the earth's average distance from the sun x 2, and calculate the area of a sphere with that diameter and zzzzzzz......

Quite impressed with the amount of ammo you have available. :?:

Then; to the main issue here; You have probably noticed some anger towards persons using the wrong abbreviations for some Nationalities? What you do here is far much worse; You generalize; "The Vikings/Normans were incredibly dangerous"; I object strongely to that simplification.
Also; calling the period the "dark ages"when we used some good men to educate you, teach you travel and shipbuilding. If we had not done that, it's my meaning that you would have remained worthless shore/ landbased creatures. And to evolve feudalism as a "defence" is pretty much to treat plaque with cholera.:D

[Knut Sand]

And to evolve feudalism as a "defence" is pretty much to treat plaque with cholera.:D

OOpps, that line could also be read as that we were the plaque... And that were of course not my intention....:p
Not at all.

[Guillermo]

....Actually I have believed that the 'seventh' Celtic Nation was Galicia, (the other six being - Eire, Caledonia, Mann, Kernow, Cymry, Britany)...
You're limiting the Celts to the British Isles only, but those are just some of the many Celtic tribes.

Celts (name coming from the greek word 'keltoi': the audacious) were also called 'Galos' by the romans, so every name in Europe with the particle 'gal' in it has to do with the galos-gauls-celts.

So we have Galicia in Spain; Galicia in Poland and Ukraine; the great Gallia covering parts of France, Belgium, Switzerland, Holland and Germany; all the way down to Galatasaray in Turkey (the old Galacia, or Galatea, where the galateans were from; remember St. Paul) and finally Portugal, the port of the galos (Porto).

As you can see, in the Isles you were a late addition to the 'Gauls empire'. As Perry says, don't welcome us to the tribe: your a part of ours, brother! :D :D

Cheers.

[Pericles]

In May 1982, I was in Phoenix Arizona. The daily temperature was around 90 F, say 40 C, anyway very hot. Check the temperatures in June 2008.

http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/

It snowed in Washington.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004466972_webweather09m.html

Skiing in Aspen

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=93380&catid=188

Es muy interesante!

http://www.icecap.us/

Perry

[the1much]

still in the 100's here,,,,has been for over a month,,,and them "northern" states have early and late snow all the time,,,,next week it'll be 90f there,,hehe ;)

[Guillermo]

.....when we used some good men to educate you....


Well, well, well: we indeed used some good men and women to educate you!

http://www.pilegrim.no/page.php?id=1125404256

It took us a lot of years, but finally we did it!

Cheers. :D :D

[masalai]

Guillermo, Thank you very much for that most edifying history lesson, Why aren't teachers like that? I could have been a historian or my memory may have been better for the effort....

Perry you seem to be on a mission, I think you may be preaching to the converted or abject heathens (me?), best wishes....

[DanishBagger]

He he, perserverance :D

[Guillermo]

Thank you masalai,
Nowadays all of us behave in a more civilized manner: At the Catoira Festival, Galicians and Scandinavians get drunk together in a Bachian brotherhood.....:D

See: http://www.vikinga.es/ (pages in english)

Cheers.

[masalai]

Looks like a lot of fun this "re-enacting thing"

[Meanz Beanz]

You know what I think about climate change....

Climate changes, always has, always will.... now shut up and deal with it while trying to be not so arrogant as to think that anything you can do will change it.

http://foolstown.com/sm/gy.gifhttp://foolstown.com/sm/gy.gifhttp://foolstown.com/sm/gy.gifhttp://foolstown.com/sm/gy.gifhttp://foolstown.com/sm/gy.gifhttp://foolstown.com/sm/gy.gifhttp://foolstown.com/sm/gy.gifhttp://foolstown.com/sm/gy.gifhttp://foolstown.com/sm/gy.gifhttp://foolstown.com/sm/gy.gifhttp://foolstown.com/sm/gy.gifhttp://foolstown.com/sm/gy.gifhttp://foolstown.com/sm/gy.gifhttp://foolstown.com/sm/gy.gifhttp://foolstown.com/sm/gy.gifhttp://foolstown.com/sm/gy.gifhttp://foolstown.com/sm/gy.gifhttp://foolstown.com/sm/gy.gifhttp://foolstown.com/sm/gy.gif

[Meanz Beanz]

I like mass plantings.... so much more effective, don't you think?

[masalai]

I would prefer in a pretty pattern, like a flying "marijuana leaf", or moving around the KEG to recharge their glasses in turn....:D:D:D

[masalai]

Can you pick the odd one out?