Intuition vs. Science…

[clodgo]

I know there are allot of professional nautical engineers on this site, as well as students, architects, and amateur, first time, back-yard boat builders. My question to everyone is; how much do you rely on intuition, and/or science, in the process of designing a boat?

Chris

[artemis]

I know there are allot of professional nautical engineers on this site, as well as students, architects, and amateur, first time, back-yard boat builders. My question to everyone is; how much do you rely on intuition, and/or science, in the process of designing a boat?

Don't believe in none of that science stuff here. Creationism is where it's at. Noah never bilt no boat - God told him how an it floated with a whole bunch a animals aboard for a long time. Reckon all any of us has to do is "hear the word of the Lord" an bild it jest like He says. :P

[TeddyDiver]

I know there are allot of professional nautical engineers on this site, as well as students, architects, and amateur, first time, back-yard boat builders. My question to everyone is; how much do you rely on intuition, and/or science, in the process of designing a boat?

Chris
I'm an amateur in boat building. Been working with smaller boats a lot (row boats, open outboard boats, a couple of canoes etc). Currently working my biggest so far 33' motorsailer project.
I rely on intuition with backup. After figuring out what I'm doing (intuitively) I search the backup information needed. And chance my plans if it needs to. It's mostly empirical backup, like it has been working in other designs so it should work here too. Most of the formulas and scantling rules etc are (in my opinion) actually in this category. Not much science to do. Maybe more engineering..

[TollyWally]

LOL, Art or science? Chicken or egg. We need go no further than the subject of the proper propeller, engineered choice or trial and error. Put down your money and take your chances.

[Kay9]

Intuition= David Mann.

Science= Everything else that floats and dosent come apart in first 80 mile voyage.

K9

[Guest625101138]

I am a professional electrical engineer and hobbyist boater.

I lean toward intuition being related more to art than science while engineering underpins design.

Intuitive understanding can lead you to ask the right questions but you need science to get a good answer. (I remember the proposed 50lb 4ft long model of a sailing cat - just did not look right so I asked the question. It was out by a factof of 10 - should have been 5lb.)

Also not all scientific results are intuitive. Look at the debate that something like the concept of DDFTTW can generate. Most people's intuitive feel is that it cannot not work so they are sceptics. Or, who would believe that you do not need to support a propeller mounted on an 8mm diameter 4ft long aluminium shaft pushing a 120kg boat at 7kts. This is not intuitive for anyone I know but it works.

Intuition is the school of hard knocks. Hopefully some wisdom is gained so you can learn from the mistakes. Science is the cornerstone of engineering and sound design.

Rick W.

[safewalrus]

Isn't Intuition some kind of Eskimo???

[clodgo]

Nice diversity of responses, Who the heck is David Mann?

[safewalrus]

Clod, do a trawl around other posts in this section!! Or are you such a leg-end in your own lunch time that you never read other peoples stuff?

[clodgo]

Hey Safewalrus,

I spend allot of time reading other peoples posts, in fact that's why I asked about David Mann, his name is all over this place.

I'm no "legend in my own lunch time", I signed up here to learn about boat design. I am not a boat designer at all, just a furniture guy with an interest in what I consider to be a great art.

There are allot of silly people posting jokes and stuff but I've found allot of very useful information on this site and I appreciate everyone who contributes.

I posted this thread because at the beginning of my own project I stupidly thought I could just pull a design out of a hat. Over the last few weeks I've realized that there is a huge amount of math involved. Unfortunately I'm also not a mathematician, so I've been relying on allot of gut feeling, and/or guess work.

I still don't know who David Mann is.

Chris

[Kay9]

This will get you started:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=21058

This is what pure intuition in boatbuilding gets you, with science being nowhere to be found.

K9

[clodgo]

Thanks Kay9,

Wow, I wouldn't go within 100 yards of that thing, even if it was on land!
Aren't you supposed to build things with rounded edges for safety, the tin can looks like a pile of cutlery with sails.

I haven't been able to get Freeship to work on my computer so I'm just making a scale model and putting it in the water. with a little math I should be able to approximate the weight with crew, Displacement, center of lateral plane and so on. If it sinks a few inches lower than the waterline in the drawings, trust me, I'll keep David Vann in mind and go back to the drawing board.

[Wynand N]

My question to everyone is; how much do you rely on intuition, and/or science, in the process of designing a boat?

and something to ponder about... Before the event of Archimedes, Bernoulli, Simpson to name but a few, how did the old seafarers designed and build their boats?

The Vikings, Polynesians, Romans, Spaniards, Portuguese, English and Dutch all sailed the seven seas long before the event of mathematics, sliding rules and calculators ;) In fact, I would venture to say that some of those old sailing boats were better vessels than some of the new "scientific" boats around nowadays:D

[tuantom]

Trial and error is science, and it all starts with an idea. So without intuition, there could be no science - or at least scientific advancement.

[safewalrus]

Clodgo I'll say one thing about David Vann - he's everything you ain't......fool, idiot, cretin, numpty, maniac......you get my drift?

You have that one important thing that will keep you safe through everything you do - the sense to ask questions and act on the answers, if you think they are OK! (if you don't you won't)

[clodgo]

Thanks guys for your opinions, they got me thinking allot.

I think it's a mix of intuition fallowed by experimentation and study, and more study, then some more...

Hey safewalrus,

I've worked in allot of places where people wouldn't give up their "tricks" or techniques, How the hell is anyone supposed to learn in an environment like that? This board is cool, people are willing to teach to those who are willing to learn. I get your drift and thank you.

Chris

[safewalrus]

Glad to be of help Chris, and best of luck with your designs!

[PAR]

5,000 years ago an average was drawn up by a clever Egyptian, who likely tied a string to the leg of a slave, staked the other end of the string and had him walk in a circle, at strings length several times. Pi was invented, just so they could make an accurate square. They knew this because they had a rudimentary understanding of geometry.

Mathematics has been around for many thousands of years and everyone has used formulas for a very long time, including the Vikings, Polynesians, Romans, Spaniards, Portuguese, English and Dutch. I'll also add the Mesopotamians which easily pre-dates all of the above by thousands of years.

Intuition is little more then logical insight, which suggests more then the ability to reason, but in fact problem solving, which is the definition of engineering. So, intuition is an engineer's reasonable observation, before they justify it with calculations.

Science is knowledge absorption, through systematic acquisition. Though there can be a fair amount of "science" in yacht design, the number of variables can be so grand as to prevent true acquisition and understanding, hence the fall back position is logical insight.

[Landlubber]

I would suggest that boat design and construction are both science and art.
The art being the intuition if you like.

A good boat not only looks right but it is right. There are in the science field many parameters in boat design that have to be met, boats built outside of these standard parameters are either great successes, or downright dangerous messes.

After a few years of sailing and understanding the sea and what she can throw at us, we soon realise that there is no perfect boat, it is horses for courses, but simply put, a good long distance sea boat is in the water, not on the water, a good fast round the buoys boat is on the water not in the water.

The latest fast designs rely on the science of engineering to make the boat fast and light. The ultimate racing boat would fall apart two seconds after crossing the finish line. We nearly saw this a few years ago in the Americas Cup, the boat broke up unfortunately, just a bit too early!

The art side of the game allows our emotions to flow, probably why the old cruising yachts had lovely little row boats on the fore deck for tenders, the sailors could row away from their boat after arriving and still admire her graceful and forgiving lines as they rowed back to shore from the mooring. Today they have outboard powered dinghys, they sit facing forward because they cannot stand the thought of looking at the boat any longer as they make their way to shore..........

[TeddyDiver]

The latest fast designs rely on the science of engineering to make the boat fast and light. The ultimate racing boat would fall apart two seconds after crossing the finish line. We nearly saw this a few years ago in the Americas Cup, the boat broke up unfortunately, just a bit too early!
....
Things like that belong to the same category which has become very well known to those who have children. I'm talking about toy's breaking a part just after the package is ripped of. Mattel Made in China is however much cheaper... of the cheap engineering:P

[Gannet]

Intuition is very important during the conceptual (creativity) phase of a design. After that science is needed to evaluate the conceptual design this is done by analysis and testing.

The problem in today's world too much credence is place on computer analysis and very little "proof of concept" testing is done. This is based on 30 years of personal experience in the aircraft industry. Very little Wind Tunnel and Tow Tank testing is done.

Back in the days before computers, testing was the rule of the day. You test to prove your design will work as intented and learn things you didn't know. Today, we let the customer find out things we didn't know.

Check out this site for NACA test on Flying Boats
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?Ns=PublicationYear|0&N=0&Ntk=Title&Ntx=mode%20matchall&Ntt=Flying%2BBoat

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

Both - within the boundary of knowing when to apply one to the other and vice versa - it is not one or the other - it is knowing when to check the math against the design and then using your intuition to move things around a bit when things don't jive...


So both - don't get caught up trying to play one against the other or feel sorry for yourself for doting over blondes in calculus class...

It just doesn't matter - sometimes the Engineer comes up with an out of the box solution that has nothing to do with numbers - but with form - and it is up to the welder/fabricator to build the thing - if they can communicate - all is well - if one plays arrogance against the other mans skill set - the thing does not get built...

The designer is usually sitting behind his great big desk reading a magazine and feeling sorry for himself and wondering why he is not working for Sparkman and Stevens - eventually he will realize that there is money in commercial boats...:)

Right..

SH.

[yipster]

The designer is usually sitting behind his great big desk reading a magazine and feeling sorry for himself
and wondering why he is not working for Sparkman and Stevens
http://www.basement.org/c/images/blog/night-cycle.gif

[safewalrus]

Yeah, right?

[marshmat]

Just when I thought that damn paper clip couldn't get any more cocky.

On the original question....
I've seen boats whose design originated with accountants. They're called container liners. Their purpose is to fit as many containers, therefore as much money, as possible at a time. They must also fit through the Panama (or Suez) canals. Thus, the boat itself is a rectangular box in all three orthographic views, with only just enough of a point on the ends for it to be able to keep a decent speed. No aesthetic appeal, just financial efficiency dictating form.

I have also seen boats whose design originates from some hydrodynamic theory or another, scientifically optimized for their specific role. Long-distance HPVs come to mind, or that solar-electric cat that crossed the Atlantic last year. Ideal engineering solutions to the problems at hand, but so many idiosynchracies.... and a lot of them just look, well, weird.

There are also the boats with their roots in the designer's whim alone, with no concession to science. Homebuilt ferro sloops come to mind- the kind that float right on their lines at first launching, before adding anything like a deck, or tanks, or an engine, or a rig. Or that 10m long, 4m wide, 10-tonne behemoth at the marina with the double skylounge and the twin 400 horse V8s- you know, the one that can't get out of its own way and throws up more of a wake than the car ferry.

Then there is the traditional method of yacht design. The designer looks at something that works, and thinks about how it could be even better. Math and other scientific tools are used to refine the design, to understand it better, to help ensure its safety. But the math remains a tool, a slave to the designer's imagination. This is the approach I like to see, and I think it results in more practical and more beautiful craft than the others.

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

I posted a 3 page PB article in the gallery - sorry - I do not know how to bury same into my own albums - YET...

Homebuilt ferro - or Cross Trimarans - auck...

Cheers...

SH.

[clodgo]

hello,

I've hired three woodworkers, two managers to look after them, two AutoCad guys, a wallpaper specialist, and an interior designer. I have also brought in a business consultant, who suggested that I hire a shop supervisor to make sure that everyone shows up at 7am on the sharp and doesn't take more than half an hour for lunch. My 10.5' sailing dinghy should be finished in no time!

That was a joke ;]

Chris

[charmc]

And a good one. :)

[masalai]

But scary because it is sooo close to the truth and actuality in many/nearly all businesses.......

[Landlubber]

Here in China we have massive boatbuilding yards with many employees, all sanding down some piece of timber or other, just to appear busy.
Upstairs office workers are all playing computer games, or eating or both.
Nothing is actually sold, just a few get made, but everyone is "flat out" working....crazy!!!!!!!

[clodgo]

I think the design crew is onto something!

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

More like on something...:)

SH.

[the1much]

"meds" strike again hehe ;)

[masalai]

Clodgo, is that the output from a whole log that Landlubber was talking about in China? (they sell the sandpaper dust at a huge profit.)

[harlemriverman]

I know there are allot of professional nautical engineers on this site, as well as students, architects, and amateur, first time, back-yard boat builders. My question to everyone is; how much do you rely on intuition, and/or science, in the process of designing a boat?

Chris

intuition is a compass for a direction that you want science to take you.

[safewalrus]

Can't spell either so I don't - s'funny my boats all sink!!

[masalai]

12345 in French said to an English only speaking person "Oon de twa cat sunk"

[clodgo]

I can't spell either, Masalai, I was just messing about with wallpaper.

[masalai]

If you are a typical, single, Indian man who lives in the USA, the time will come when it will dawn on you that the only chance you have to indulge in wedded bliss lies in the hallowed institution of the "Arranged Marriage". You probably left India when you were twenty-one, having squandered your adolescence striving to get here. At this point, you are twenty-five or older, and have been out of touch with the general Indian female population for more than a decade. All the women you know back home are married. This manual is written for those of you who harbor hopes of acquiring a beautiful arranged bride.

If you belong to the rarified set of intellectuals to whom the external female form holds no charms, and those who evaluate others according to the quality of their inner selves, this manual is not for you. Before you stop reading, please accept my heartiest congratulations on your self control and ideological correctness. I am not worthy of even addressing you (kneel! kneel!).

No, this manual is for the rest of you, mere mortals, who still have enough red blood in their veins so that you can admit, even to yourselves, that you rather like the idea of having a beautiful wife.

Of course, before I even go about describing how to acquire beauty, it is necessary to define it. And this is where I expect the most disagreement. There will be those among you who proclaim, "But beauty is in the eye of the beholder!" And you would be partly right.

If you are a man who equates beauty to facial attractiveness, there is not much that this manual can do for you. You are a very fortunate man, for Indian women have the most beautiful faces of any race in the world. You have a very large pool to choose from, and you do not need much help in choosing, because you can look at each prospective bride's face and decide whether she is beautiful or not.

No, this is written for those who would like their wife to have a good figure too. For you, the job is harder. Typically, Indian women do not get much physical exercise, and consequently, if they are not scrawny, tend to be on the overweight side. Why do you think sarees are so popular in India? Because they can hide all the embarrassing bulk! Some men think that Indian women do not have shapely legs by reasons of genetics. I say to them, check out the figures of the IA (ABCD to you politically incorrect guys) women. They are on par with anything I have seen on any other race. This is because IA women work out and take care to keep themselves in shape. You cannot go covering yourself up around here, not if you want to get dates.

If you are one of those academic types who have not given much thought to the matter, or merely one of those blighters who like to ask intelligent questions to which you already know the answers, and ask me, "But why does one NEED a beautiful wife?" I would reply that beauty is a double edged sword. It has its advantages and disadvantages, some of which I summarize below.

Advantages of having a beautiful wife.
_____________________________________________

a) A beautiful girl is much easier to adjust to than an unattractive one. You will be much more tolerant of her faults during the initial "adjustment" phase of marriage, simply because you will not have the heart to get irritated with someone so lovely. She will be much easier to forgive after a fight.

b) If you are the typical desi engineer, you will not be exactly Adonis Reborn. If your wife is homely too, your child will probably look like the Swamp Thing, or the Blob. If you love your unborn children, you owe it to them to give them a beautiful mother.

c) A beautiful wife enhances your social stature. People will look at you and think, "How the ^&*% did that !@## land such a gorgeous babe? He must have something that is not visible on the outside!" You will get invited to more parties, especially by men who want to spend the evening drooling at her. Conversely, if your wife is homely, you will be rather embarrassed to take her to gatherings of your friends, especially if they are all married to knockouts.

d) And most importantly, sex will be much better if your wife is good-looking. Otherwise, after a couple of years when the pent-up horniness of the past 25+ years has worn off, you probably will not be even able to get it up, unless you resort to ungentlemanly and undignified tactics, like fantasizing about Sridevi when you are in bed.

Disadvantages of having a beautiful wife.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

a) If you are one of those for whom innocence, virtue, and chastity are important, beautiful women are not for you. My empirical research shows that, while beauty (or the lack of it) in a woman is in no way indicative of her intelligence, beautiful women are invariably very street-smart. They KNOW that they are good looking, and have got used to people bending over backwards to accommodate them. This dawns on them very early on in life, when they observe that teachers are much nicer to them than to their less-attractive friends, when almost all the men they encounter behave like brainless, testosterone-driven apes in their presence, when they observe that they get things done twice as quickly in a government office.

As a teenager in college, a beautiful woman would have had lots of men vying with each other for her friendship and affections. She would have to be more than human not to have enjoyed the attention. She would have played the men one against the other, as women have done since time immemorial. She might have dated, and even had affairs. In the process, she would get to know men all too well, and would realize that they are but putty in the hands of a good-looking woman.

b) A good-looking woman is more than a match for the average desi engineer. She will twist you around her little finger and make you jump through hoops. Things will get done her way nearly all the time. Of course, it will be fun to jump through hoops for someone as lovely as she is. A homely woman, on the other hand, will usually be so grateful to you for marrying her that she will treat you like a king.

c) As I mentioned before, a beautiful woman is unlikely to be particularly virtuous or righteous. But that is okay, since too much virtue often goes hand-in-hand with rather undesirable traits. A virtuous woman may also be ugly, weird, boring, hyper-religious or frigid.

d) A beautiful woman is more likely to "stray" after marriage too. This is the USA, and the fact that a woman is married does not make her off-limits to adventurers or would-be Casanovas. The more lovely a woman is, the more likely is she to be propositioned by her male colleagues or friends. Ergo, she is subject to much more temptation than her homely counterparts. Think about this... how would it be if women kept asking you, a man, to make love to them? How many times would you refuse?

How to go about selecting a beautiful wife.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

First of all, there is the matter of mentioning the fact to your parents. If your parents are anything like mine, they will freak out when they hear that their dear devoted son is actually interested in earthy things like beauty (and, by extrapolation, sex). It is not considered good form to say that beauty is important to you in Indian circles.

Here is a very important tip... do not leave bride-hunting to your parents! Beauty is going to be the last of their priorities, coming after caste, horoscopes, family background, perceived virtue of the girl etc. Make it very clear to them that beauty is high on your list of priorities. State in no uncertain terms that you will not marry anyone who does not measure up to your standards. That will prevent them from goofing off during bride-hunting, shirking their responsibilities and palming off some family-friend's daughter on you.

Another unpalatable fact is that your mother will not want you to marry someone too beautiful. This often comes as a surprise to most sons, but the reason is simple. Mothers know that, sooner or later, there will be a tussle between her and her daughter-in-law over her son's affections and loyalties. Since women are extremely conscious of their looks and tend to rate themselves accordingly, a beautiful woman has a psychological advantage over a less attractive one in an argument. Also, your mother knows that a beautiful wife will tilt the scales against her as far as you are concerned, since such a wife will probably have you dangling by the balls, if you pardon the expression. So, left to herself, your mother will limit her search to women who are less attractive than she perceives herself to be.

Before you start on your bride-hunting, you should convince yourself that you deserve a beautiful wife. Do not ever think, "But I am not so good-looking anyway, what right have I to demand a lovely girl?" Since Man started walking the earth, it has been the man's wealth that has been traded off for the woman's beauty. Rest assured that your looks will be the last thing on a girl's mind when she rates you as a prospective husband. (I am limiting myself to arranged marriages here). She will be weighing your earning potential, green-card potential etc. Even in this land of feminism, "Cosmopolitan" has articles on "How to hook a rich husband" and "The ten best places to meet successful men".

You have worked hard, and wasted ten of the most wonderful years of your life getting where you are. You deserve to get something out of it. Do not squander your bargaining position. In other words, do not be ashamed to make your preference for beauty known.

How to check whether she is beautiful.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

First of all, never consent to marry a girl whom you have seen only in photographs. PHOTOGRAPHS LIE!!!! Photography is an art that can make HKL Bhagat look like Zeenat Aman. All too often, photographs sent to prospective suitors contain only the face. Also, they usually have been so air-brushed and sanitized, all the pimples and other irregularities removed, that the end product has little in common with the original. Also, it is a certain fact that no woman will consent to send you photograph that presents herself in an unflattering light.

These days, in the urban areas of India, it is often the practice to take an album-full of pictures of a girl when she gets to marriageable age. These pictures show the girl in various outfits, eastern and western. The album is then sent to prospective grooms-in-the-states. During my last visit to India, I learned from an authoritative source that many of these pictures are blatant forgeries, involving splicing the girl's head on to the figure of some other girl, sometimes professional models. In one case, pictures of a girl's good-looking sister were went out instead. Bottom line: do not make a decision based merely on photographs!

Darshan
^^^^^^^

Once you see the girl directly, you can easily check whether her face measures up. The figure is a different matter altogether. Women have conducted more research into packaging themselves than have been conducted on the entire US space effort. You should realize that, while you were struggling in your engineering program in undergraduate on grad school, women were learning the techniques of camouflage. She KNOWS that it is her looks that count. By packaging herself so that she seems attractive to a non-resident Indian for about 10 minutes, she can earn all that it took the NRI 10 years of hard work to realize. Women are extremely honest with their friends about their positive and negative points. They are intensely aware of their flaws, and work systematically towards concealing them.

So, if she seems to have a liking for loose, flowing sarees orsalwar-kameez, keep your mind open to the possibility that she may be overweight. That fold of her saree draped oh-so-elegantly across her midriff might be concealing a paunch. It it is wound demurely around her back, she probably has spare tires. Does she walk slowly and sedately, like an old Spanish galleon making its way across the seas? She is probably holding her paunch in.

So what do you do if she always appears in such clothes? You cannot very well demand that she change clothes... that would be outrageously bad form. AND SHE KNOWS THAT! One way to approach such a problem is the following. Tell her that she cannot wear a saree in the states ,that it would be embarrassing for you. Tell her that if she is not willing to wear jeans, shorts and pants on a regular basis, you are probably not a good choice for her. Subtly hint that you would like to see her in western clothes. If she refuses flat-out, my friend, you can be sure that she is hiding something. If she has a good figure, she will make damned sure that you see it.

A large percentage of women in India have huge hips and very heavy thighs. This is mainly due to lack of exercise. In a saree orchuridar, it is impossible to check for these, which is why they are so popular. If a woman states that she does not wear pants, warning bells should ring in her mind. One way to check for obesity under asaree or salwar is to note the relative positions of her bosom and midriff. For a woman with a good figure, the bosom should be at a considerably higher level. If she dresses so that the bosom does not stand out, it is almost surely because she has a paunch that comes to the same level. Or she may be droopy, saggy or totally flat.

Let me reiterate, if a girl has something to show, she will make damned sure that you will see it.

One way to see how your prospective bride looks when she is not dressed up is to ask to see her family albums. NOT the ones that they keep out ostentatiously but the ones that they keep tucked away at the corner of the shelf. A lot of overweight women go through crash diets during the wedding season, starving themselves or going to professional "fat-farms" to lose dozens of pounds, to get into presentable shape for the darshan. I know of one woman who lost 60pounds in 8 months preparing for the wedding. She quickly gained it all back after the marriage. Pictures of the woman taken 2 or 3 years ago should tell you whether she is inclined to obesity.

If, on the other hand, she is a thin woman who has padded herself up to look good on darshan day, there is no way on earth that you can tell. The best way to check for this sort of stuff is to enlist the help of a sympathetic, liberated, female, friend, sister or other relative. She can easily see through the disguise and give you unbiased estimates of the interior. So, if you have a sister, you had better start being nice to her.

[masalai]

I think the above extract is an appropriate blend of intuition & science...... ?

[the1much]

yupz,, hehe ;)

[clodgo]

Hello,

I am of native American decent. My wonderful girlfriend is Jewish, a very pleasant combination. I think I should work on the drapes.

Cheers,

Chris

[masalai]

Not much of either this time, but it does PRETEND to be scientivic in origin but is likely less than intuition - - - JUST ANOTHER CASE OF PIRACY - sorry.....


A programmer was walking along the beach when he found a lamp. Upon rubbing the lamp a genie appeared who stated "I am the most powerful genie in the world. I can grant you any wish you want, but only one wish."

The programmer pulled out a map of the Mediterranean area and said "I'd like there to be a just and last peace among the people in the middle east."

The genie responded, "Gee, I don't know. Those people have been fighting since the beginning of time. I can do just about anything, but this is beyond my limits."

The programmer then said, "Well, I am a programmer and my programs have a lot of users. Please make all the users satisfied with my programs, and let them ask sensible changes"

Genie: "Uh, let me see that map again."
#########################
All programmers are playwrights and all computers are lousy actors.
#########################
They say that the new super computer knows everything. A skeptical man came and asked the computer, "Where is my father?"

The computer bleeped for a short while, and then came back with "Your father is fishing in Michigan."

The skeptical man said triumphantly, "You see? I knew this was nonsense. My father has been dead for twenty years."

"No", replied the super computer immediately. "Your mother's husband has been dead for twenty years. Your father just landed a three pound trout."
#########################
The programmer to his son: "Here, I brought you a new basketball."
"Thank you, daddy, but where is the user's guide?"
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The problem with physicists is that they tend to cheat in order to get results.

The problem with mathematicians is that they tend to work on toy problems in order to get results.

The problem with program verifiers is that they tend to cheat at toy problems in order to get results.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A software verifier read in the Bible that God protects all fools, and decided to test it empirically. He jumped out of the window and broke a leg. There he lies, writhing in pain, and happily thinks: "I never really considered myself a fool, but I never knew I was THAT clever!"

[Knut Sand]

The problem with mathematicians is that they tend to work on toy problems in order to get results.



Hmm, we had a garden party in the neighborhood here a couple of years back, One of the neighbors is a mathematician (professor, doctor something) needless to say a pretty bright head. She was talking about some experimental math, I didn't get anything of it, so I asked (politely): "What use can we make of it", Her answer was spot on....: "That's the problem with engineers, they want a practical use for everything!"

Got me thinking, its not always we can see the use of a thing rightaway (post it notes "glue" for instance), It's not a bad thing to have some persons fiddeling with numbers and research. In the long run something may come of it, but I have to admit, it will not be coming from me...;)

[the1much]

if it wasnt fer post-it notes glue,,,,,i wouldnt be able to roll my "meds" so easy,,hehe ;)

[masalai]

the1 do you want me to send some good "ricepaper" for rollin your smokes - in Aus the brand is called "Tally-Ho" f,ck nose why, but it makes rollin tobacco or other stuff easy....?

[the1much]

ummm,,,,ya, would love some,,,,,,,i got new ones the other day,,,,their CLEAR,,,looks like cellophane from a cig. pack,,,,,,no glue,,,,,taste like chit.,,,but they look freaky as hell,,,hehe ;)
all the "wraps" we have here taste like ya burning writing paper :(

[masalai]

PM me a postal address & i'll see what I can do... One thing though, if it is humid or they get moist (your shirt pocket got sweaty when you were workin and the "papers were there) then they are almost certainly f'cked... Keep the packets in dry sealed containers till ready to use...

[safewalrus]

Jeez you guys talking 'bout rollin joints now!! Not that I'd know anything about that being a clean living kinda guy!!

[masalai]

the1, - - Stuff posted on Friday afternoon, so should reach you soon:D:D:D

[the1much]

Thanks Mas.,,,,,i feel all giddy,,,,jus like a little kid at x-mas,,hehe ;)

[masalai]

Possibly you will make your self even happier later:D:D:D

[the1much]

wonder if this will look right,,hehe ; )-~~~~~ :D-~~~~~~~ ,,, its worth a try hehe ;)

[masalai]

Jim, did you forget to log out? have a look here, I think they need your expert guidance? http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=210435#post210435

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

Intuition versus Science - bloody crank question - it all comes from the same pile...

Neccesity is the mother of all invention - and for all us other screw ups - there is insurance...:)

Just had to call my local AA (HEHEHEHE) - NO - my Auto Association - to pickle out my keys from my new truck so I could come home and type this mess...

A bloody 2007 Ford with all the idiot lights and beeps yet I still managed to lock in my keys - I gave the F'ck a 20 and told him to make his wife happy with it...:)

I feel like I am de evolving - all these beeps and burps to tell me of a catastrophic event - and I remain oblivious...

I think we need to bring back the KIT car - no more beeps and bells - a car that just screams - 'YOU DUMB **** - TAKE YOUR KEYS OUT OF THE IGNITION NOW'...

Crickey...

See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO6v9NU7dR8&feature=related ...

Fire in the Disco - DANGER - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJZBtbkGSfM ...

I know that I am not stupid - I think...:)

SH.

[clodgo]

I bet that the AA guy spent the 20 on tobacco and papers.