Tool for efficient deck sanding

[GWB]

I have purchased a Westsail 32 that needs the deck repainted.
So I need to sand the entire deck before applying primer. Can somebody suggest a good way to do this please? I have a DeWald 6" random orbital sander but it seems to ineffective...
Thanks for any help

[the1much]

thats what ya need is a 6" D.A. what grit are ya using? and for a 32 deck,,get ya check book out for sand paper ;)

[GWB]

Going to use 100 grit.

The sander I have is a RA sander....is this the same as a DA sander?
Dual action/Random orbital....is this the same thing?

Thanks

[the1much]

nope,,,,i dont think they're the same,,,and if your complaining about the sander, instead of going through too much paper., then im sure they're not,,,you need the D.A.,,,im afraid your "R.A" will probably leave behind signs of its use about half way through your top coat :(
and 100 grit is awful agressive,,,is the deck in rough shape?, are you sanding old paint or gel?, and what are your plans for the "kind" of paint your using,,like,,,re gel it, or awl-grip,,or another kind?

[GWB]

The deck is in pretty rough shape....and there is some paint over the gelcoat in places that I need to get off. My plan is to awlgrip it...probably roll and tip as I don't have any spraying experience.
The gelcoat has hairline cracks that I'm hoping to be able to cover up with the primer...
I'm pretty inexperrienced as you can probably tell.
Is there a good electric DA sander on the market? I see lots of pnuematic ones but I dont have an air supply at the boat

[the1much]

dont count on your primer to fill the cracks,,8 times out of 10 it wont. you'll need to sand what you can out, then fill the rest. it sounds like extra work but trust me,, it'll save you time and LOTS of money. and are you sure the crack is only in the gel and not cracks starting under your gel in your glass?
but that said,,now that i'm trying to remember your slow spraying ;) it,,,as long as the cracks are ONLY in your gel, then just a sanding will probably work.
and i dont know what to tell ya about a non air sander,, i call that "hand sanding" heh.

[GWB]

Jim - have you had any experience with this tool?

Porter-Cable 97366 6" Random Orbit VS Sander Kit

A lot of people seem to recommend it.

[the1much]

nope,,,never used one before,,,the only thing i got electric is a 4" grinder,and a 8" dewalt wildcat,,and a buffer. ive never even tried an electric sander for wood hehe sorry man :( but if any of the people that reccomend it has used one for prep'n for paint, i'd go with it.

[GWB]

Another question Jim -

If the cracks are bigger than hairline, would it be a good idea to open them up with a dremel or something like that and then fill with epoxy? Or just clean with acetone and fill with epoxy....?

[the1much]

do anything you can to "sand" the cracks,,,,so a dremil is perfect, just make sure you "open" the cracks so they have a good V shape,,,and this will be a good thread for you to read,,,,and if ya need roll and tippin , tips,,,im pretty sure kapt. will help ya too
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=184083#post184083

[Landlubber]

A very good 6" electric random orbital is the Rupes. Used them for years and they are simply beautiful tools.

[Kaptin-Jer]

GWB
Read through some of the other threads on this page (awl grip challenge for one) we have discussed prepping in detail and roll and tipping a few times. I owned the Porte cable for about 16 years until it finally wore out. It will do some of the top side sanding for you, but most will be by hand. I invested in a Festool 6". Should have done it 10 years ago.

[Landlubber]

Yep Festool also make great tools, they are worth every cent extra, not so much in the quality of the tool itself, but in the way that the tool actually does the work. I bought one of the electronic Festool grinders to sand down my swimming pool surface before resurfacing, the tool rep advised me to rest the tool whenever the little light on it comes on from overloading, either the light is blown, or the tool cannot be overloaded, as I sanded the pool with 16 grit paper (little rocks) and could never push enough to overload it, it simply maintains the set speed whatever pressure I could push, simply amazing.

It has since gone into the tool pool as one of the best sander/polishers on the market.

[Jimbo1490]

I can vouch for the Festool Rotex models which are electric geared DA's that convert to either true random orbit or buffer/grinder with a little lever on the side. It's a pricey tool, but the only one that I have seen that can compete with a good air powered sander like a geared DA.

The thing is regular DA's don't cut very straight what with their little 6" pads and true random orbit action. They are really mostly used for sanding something smooth that has already been faired or sanded 'straight'. If you need to remove a fair amount of stock, you really should consider a geared air DA or an electric one from Festo or Makita, as they've got into that market now too. The Makita costs about half of the Festo, since you can shop around at a discounter for it.

[GWB]

Jer - when you say most of the sanding will be done by hand, do you mean on the radiuses where the cabin meets the deck and places like that?
Thanks

GWB
Read through some of the other threads on this page (awl grip challenge for one) we have discussed prepping in detail and roll and tipping a few times. I owned the Porte cable for about 16 years until it finally wore out. It will do some of the top side sanding for you, but most will be by hand. I invested in a Festool 6". Should have done it 10 years ago.

[the1much]

hehehe :eek:

[Kaptin-Jer]

Yes, sorry to say, You can not use a machine for any of the radius, and most of your deck is rounded to some extent. I know, I did the same for a 38' sailboat a couple of months ago.. The 1much says it all..........

[tinhorn]

Man, I've had to sand a lot of gelcoat, and I never did like random orbital sanders. They're okay for polishers. My favorite tool for this kind of ugly work is a regular old pad sander.

[the1much]

wuts a pad sander?

[Kaptin-Jer]

Com'on Much you know perfectly well what a pad sander is. You know these days they are made from hard rubber and it holds a 1/3 flat sheet of sand paper. The kind you buy in those Home Depot type places. Not the 100 at a time boxes.
We usually wrap a disk around whatever. or just fold it in 1/2 and use it that way. If it's too rounded for machine sanding it's too rounded for a block. Just use your hand. Thats why we call it hand sanding, not block sanding or pad sanding. There are some soft sponge-like things on the market, but it doesn't pay for production type work, or sanding on anything bigger than a bread box. Come to think of it, I have used them on primer on a mast,--worked pretty good--

[the1much]

OOooo ,,,sorry,,,what was i thinkin,,hehe ;)

[Kaptin-Jer]

Its OK Much, you can go back to bed now.

[GWB]

How do you know when you've sanded enough? Dumb question I know but I have to ask.....

[the1much]

if its gel coat,,and everything is faired,,,then what your doing is sanding the "shiny" off.,,look at the gel before,,then take 3 or 4 swipes with ya paper,,,wipe off and look at the sanded area and the area around it,,,now around the sanded area there should be a "gleam" or it should be "shiny" compared to the sanded area,,,,,,see how the sanded area is "dull",,,,thats what ya want,,,,,dull. think of it this way,,,,the shiny parts are like a mirror,,and paint,gel-coat,fiberglass resin,,and bout anything else you could put on ya boat will NOT stick to "SHINY",,,wherever you see just a little hair line of shiny,,,,,the paint you put on will peel off there first,,,,,and it usually just takes touching it, to make it peel off.

[GWB]

Cheers Much....

I have taken the rudder off to replace the cheeks and I'm going to practise on it. The westsail rudder is about 7' tall and weighs about 200 lbs

Another question I have - if I can't paint the whole rudder in one session ie 1/2 per day - how do I end and then restart?

When I wash the decks down before I start sanding, what degreaser do I use? I have 202 fiberglass wash, but do I need to scrub the decks first? Will simple green work?

Thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it

[the1much]

if you have to end a paint job,,stop on the radius,in the middle of it,,then before starting again, put ya tape line on, sand right up to the tape,,,,finish painting,,then wet sand the tape line.,, but dont do that,,,do the whole dam thing at once heehhe,,if you cant do that rudder in 3 hours by "snail" painting,,,then maybe ya should hire me to paint ya boat,,,cause that'll take ya a month hahaha,,,,( dont take me as an ass(even tho i am lol) im jus playing with ya)(i think,,,maybe,,,not really) ;)

[the1much]

OOoo P.S. ,, what are you painting the rudder with ( kind of paint) ?

[alan white]

Jim - have you had any experience with this tool?

Porter-Cable 97366 6" Random Orbit VS Sander Kit

A lot of people seem to recommend it.

The Porter Cable is a great tool and only $129.00 or so. Lasts and lasts. Good balance. The DeWalt cannot stand a long cord. It will burn up if the voltage is too low so use a short and fat cord. The Porter Cable will stand a lower voltage situation far better. I burned up two DeWalts finding this out.

Alan

[GWB]

I would love to hire you to paint my boat...but you know, my budget is probably laughable to a pro like you.
My question to do with stopping is I was going to try it and see how it turns out....I won't be able to paint the whole deck and cabin in one shot I think and was planning to use the same technique to paint the cabin, then the deck after....

I was going to use interlux 2000e on the rudder lower part for a barrier coat and then on the upper part (not in the water) interlux epoxy primekote and then perfection....what do you think?

Maybe I could use the 2000e on the upper part as a primer....? then Perfection

What should I use to wash the deck with?

if you have to end a paint job,,stop on the radius,in the middle of it,,then before starting again, put ya tape line on, sand right up to the tape,,,,finish painting,,then wet sand the tape line.,, but dont do that,,,do the whole dam thing at once heehhe,,if you cant do that rudder in 3 hours by "snail" painting,,,then maybe ya should hire me to paint ya boat,,,cause that'll take ya a month hahaha,,,,( dont take me as an ass(even tho i am lol) im jus playing with ya)(i think,,,maybe,,,not really) ;)

[Kaptin-Jer]

The Porter Cable is a great tool and only $129.00 or so. Lasts and lasts. Good balance.
Alan

For the price you can't go wrong. Mine lasted more than 15 years, and I woked it hard, but you can't beat the Festool for fast cuttting, or fine finishing like varnish sanding. It really makes a differance.

The only draw back is the weight. After 8 hours holding it up against the hull of a boat you really wish it was a lot lighter.

[the1much]

the best thing to use for washing first is T011 awl prep plus,,,its not just a degreaser it also removes wax,,and for really dirty areas you can use almost any household cleaner and a fine scotchbrite pad. the important thing after cleaning is your rinse water,,,,,filtered and warm to the touch of your 7th finger on ya third arm,,(o.k.,,,kidding bout the warm part heh) "stop",,i know it sounds stupid and against common sense ( as in the case of like,,,EVERYTHING to do with boats) but a "thick" really defined tape line (no over doing it) is easier to wet sand and blend then a thin tape line.
and on advice about interlux, im not ya man,,hehehe,,im an awl-grip junkie,,and for bottom paint i use petite< yes i know my spelling,,but my fantasies push through sometimes heh, if i dont use awl-grip.,,,,,,and using bottom paint for a primer is as bad as using sand and dust.,,,so if that is "bottom" paint no you cant use for primer.
and as for my "cost" ask Kapt jer.,,,,,he'll tell ya,,im pretty cheap if ya send me a pic of ya wife / and or girlfriend,,time bonus given for them "both" in the same pic ;)

[GWB]

Much - the 2000e is not bottom paint, its a 2 part epoxy barrier coat. The bottom paint goes over that.

Sorry, I dont share my wife :)

Got any pictures of boats you've done?

[the1much]

nope no pics other then the ones in the magazines and brochures , check out like morris yachts,,hinckley,,apogee's,and so on lol,,,and i dont wanna "share" ya wife,,,,,just look at her hahahah ;)
and with awl-star gold bottom paint i put it on while the last coat of hullguard (barrier) is still tacky
but i would ONLY use what interlux says to use( prob there highest priced stuff,,,,,,hey that sounds like awl-grip lol )

[GWB]

Yeah - I need to read all the brochures.
Do you travel?

[the1much]

i dont do that "snail" painting hehe,,and i dont do much work now since i broke my neck hehe,,but if the timing is right and im ready for a vaca,,then some beer women and wine and the tickets and maybe a sister-in law???? hehehe or 2 and i might travel ,,but for real, trust me you cant afford me lol ;) and if i did yours, you'd post pics and then kapt. will make me do his,,then he'll have to re-do his himself just cause he's so damned picky ;)

[mongo75]

This may be off track for this post, but what do you do about your masking tape between coats? Do you keep the same strip of tape up for the entire duration, or do you pull it after every coat so the paint doesn't dry with it on?

[the1much]

when i paint a deck i tape off the deck,,,,prime everything,,,,,then take all the tape off,,then tape off my "gloss" shoot the gloss,,then, take off the tape,,then tape out the non-skid, then sand up to the tape line again,,then shoot the non.,,,,,i do ALL my coats at once, so a few hours after im done i take the tape off.,,,i've never done tippin,,,,you guys will have to ask Kapt.,,,,but i wouldnt re-tape between top coats,,,because you would NEVER get it back in the same place. and you would have to sand each time....that said,,,i wouldnt leave my tape on past 24 hours after shootin,,,,but tipping you have more time,,,i just dont know the amount of time to be safe,,,,i would ask Kapt.

[mongo75]

Jim- the reason I asked is although I've sprayed my own boat in the past with the at time affordable Interlux single part poly, I actually taped and sprayed the primer one week, and then taped and sprayed the top coat the next week, with the tape coming off after both applications. And yes it was a major pain in the ass to re-mask everything!!

So how can you shoot lets say two coats of 545, and then another 2-3 coats of Awlgrip in one day? I ask because I plan on using Awlgrip on my current project, if the damn rain ever stops so I can finish building it...

[the1much]

k ,,,are we talking deck or hull?,,because both are VERY different on tape'n and schedules.,,, o.k.,,,,im trying to control myself here,,,i know Kapt. gonna give me crap bout "off-threadin" hahahahaha,,so,,any "awl-grip" questions outta be asked here at this thread hehehe (proud of me kapt?),,k heres the link lol
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20793
and there i can run on fer days about awl-grip and not get my spankin ;)
so just let me know you made it to the thread and i'll explain how i do it,,<which most times is the wrong way,,but it usually works better and the outcome usually proves most things ;)
meet ya there mongo ;)

[Lt. Holden]

I have used the Festool Rotex Ro150EQ for some years now as my primary sander on home, auto, and marine projects. When used with Festool abrasives and a good vacuum it simply performs better than any other sander I am aware of. The use of Festool abrasives is critical as they have the proprietary matching hole pattern. The use of a suitable vacuum (again the Festool models are outstanding) is also critical to getting efficient sanding, long abrasive life, and practically no dust; really! Check their website for a guide to their extensive line of abrasives [URL="http://festool-usa.com"]. For more aggressive material removal they make a rotary sander RAS115. Good luck with your project.

[Kaptin-Jer]

but tipping you have more time,,,i just don't know the amount of time to be safe,,,,i would ask Kapt.

Since I can only work on my boat on the week ends. I have a problem with tape, but I found out that if you buy expensive tape, and it is sold by Time allowed to stand, you can go as much as 4 weeks before pulling. I don't like to do that, I try to pull as soon as my last coat is dry. This summer I ran into time problems on my deck and the tape was on for 8 weeks, prime and finish. It came off with-out any problems. I was shocked. I had made plans to buy Goo Off, but it wasn't necessary.

Only the "Pros" re-tape after prime coat. They are the only ones that can afford to buy all that Fine Line stuff:D Bottom Line---try to get the tape off with-in 72 hours, but if you buy good tape don't panic if you can't. It will come off.

[GWB]

Another question :
How long can you leave the sanded part before painting? Can I sand for a period of about a month (after work) and then just wipe down and paint?

Thanks for all the help

[Landlubber]

GWB,

Sanding and then leaving it for a month would be too long, it gives the job time to be contaminated again.

Sanding is normally done when the boat is about to be painted, so a few days would not hurt, we normally sand, wipe clean, tac and then apply surfacers immediately.

I would respectfully suggest that you do similar.

[GWB]

Won't wiping down with the appropriate cleaner prevent contamination?

[Landlubber]

Solvent wiping is a debatable term. Some say never cos it just spreads the mess, others say solvent wipe to remove the mess.

Why risk it? Solvent wiping is done before sanding anyhow, not after it. Wipe off the sanding dust with clean dry cotton or flannel rags.

Even washing with water has caused problems, the minerals in the water are simply residue when it has evaporated. If you must use water, then demineralised is the way to go, but who is going to do that?

All up to you mate, I can only advise what I have found to be fail safe.

[the1much]

sorry guys back again,,heh,,,dont sand until you can paint within 24 hours,,,,thats primer that is,,,,sanding gel a few days before shooting primer is o.k.,,,,,,and NO wiping down with whatever your using ( i say should be denatured alcohol) will not get rid of contaminants,,,,,sand primer,,then lean against it with ya hand,,,,,wipe down with cleaner,,,,spray finish coat, then stand back and gleam at that pretty hand print.,,,,,DONT ask how i know heh ;)

[GWB]

Another question

Would it be easier to just spray gelcoat? What are the pros and cons of gelcoat versus awlgrip ot interlux?

Thanks for your input

[Kaptin-Jer]

Jim is talking like a professional again. We amateurs have to stick together. Yes ,in the ideal world you should paint the same hour you finish sanding the primer, but we week-end warriors can't do that.. So how to compromise and end-up with a great finish? The hull is not a problem. A boat under 38' can be sanded in one day. That leaves Sunday to paint, not ideal, but it works. The deck is the killer. It will take at least a week to fill, fare, and prime the same boat's deck. 8 days = 4 week-ends (add one more for luck) That's almost a month and a half. So for at least 3 weeks the tape is under the primer and at least 1/2 the boat is primed and sanded. It can't be helped unless you take vacation time from work. I have found that if you go over the whole primed area lightly by hand with 325 just before you paint it works out o.k. Just enough to "wake up the prime" . If it's been on for a few weeks it will start to change color. A light sanding restores it to white or gray. I know it's not the "right" way, But you gotta do what you gotta do. and you'll be surprised at how forgiving Awl Grip can be.

[longliner45]

go to the pawn shops and buy the oldest ,,heavest ,belt sander you can find,,,a 32 ft deck is alott of sanding,longliner

[Kaptin-Jer]

WE don't spray. We roll and tip, you need to talk to Jim about spraying

[the1much]

awl-grip takes an un-experienced dude for a 30' boat about a week of prep,,then another week to prime and sand,,then a few days to finish.,,,gel-coat,, takes just a day or so less for prep,,then usually a few minutes to "over kick" or "under kick" the first 3 runs at it,,,then maybe another gun heh,,then after you shoot the gel, theres about a week of fine sanding,,then 3 weeks of wet sanding,,then a week for buffing.
awl-grip is tougher, last longer, and actually easier to "apply",,theres just alot of steps to awl,,alot of steps,,,and ALOT of being careful. but the finish is a better looking finish ( my opinion) and i think just a SMART way to go,,hehehehhe( trust me smarts have nothing to do with being able to apply awl-grip,,by either spraying or "snail" painting,,,,,take me and kapt. fer examples ;) heh

[the1much]

go to the pawn shops and buy the oldest ,,heavest ,belt sander you can find,,,a 32 ft deck is alott of sanding,longliner
just noticed it,,,hahahaaha,,,,omg thats like a reoccurring nightmare of mine,,,coming in to my shop to see 1 of my hands (for some reason in his panties hehe) sanding a deck with one of those "tim the tool man " sized belt sander,,hehehe ;) :P

[Kaptin-Jer]

go to the pawn shops and buy the oldest ,,heavest ,belt sander you can find,,,a 32 ft deck is alott of sanding,longliner

I usually agree with your input Longliner, but not this time. There are too many curves and toe crunchers on a deck for a very agressive sander. A 6" for the few flat areas and hand sand the rest. I know, here is a pic of a 38' that I finished this summer.

[the1much]

where ta fruk is this boat pic coming from,,,,,,im seeing another nightmare in my future heh

[Kaptin-Jer]

Jim, longliner is O.K. be nice....

Say your sorry

[the1much]

im just gonna start "quote'n everyone,,,,,what ya think jeff will say when he sees about 300 pics of that boat thingy

[the1much]

im sorry longy,,,,,,is that your boat? haha

[the1much]

where ta fruk is this boat pic coming from,,,,,,im seeing another nightmare in my future heh
it better not come up this time!! heh :P

[the1much]

See!!!!

[the1much]

Jim, longliner is O.K. be nice....

Say your sorry
sending a singing ,,,,i mean,, a beer telograms nows ;)

[Kaptin-Jer]

Jim thats my rolled and tipped wonder.

[the1much]

i think jeffs trying to sell this boat!

[the1much]

noooo,,,,something was wrong with either my puter ( not likely) or the site,,,,,every time someone quoted someone else,,,there was a pic of another boat hehe,,,i know what your work looks like :D
it was the boat on this page,,,,the pic with the fence in it hehe
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=21498

[longliner45]

yes Im a little bit lazy,,I like to let the sander do the work ,,but you are right if you have curves,,,my deck is plywood,,,,,,but the monster is hell for anything else,,longliner

[Kaptin-Jer]

Longliner,
(I get nostalgic when I see that name, My good friend was a real longliner out of Mantauk (sp?), New York, He died of cancer two years ago-miss his stories)

I own a "monster" belt sander too, but the more I learned the less I used it. Now I keep it clamped to the work table upside down and I have been using it that way as a table belt sander for the past 2 years. When I use a machine I use my 6" Festool.

[fleetwing]

If you have teak deck , do it the ol fashioned way, Holy stone:)
for teak decks I use a traditional approach to care and maintain them but it takes some elbow grease... but cleans the teak real well If you happen to live near an airport you know what the airplane fuel does to a boat...
materials: a bucket, Bronze wool (steel wool leaves little extra that rusts), Arm and hammer super washing soda or any suitable bicarbonate soda detergent, T.S.P. (tri-sodium phosphate) , And some simple green industrial grade. and or Oxy clean.
Plan: mix the detergents together, easy on the tsp, Scrub the teak with the grain in one direction with the grain of the wood, using the bronze wool,
what this does is allow for the dirt to get out of the grain the it will create a peach fuzz on the wood. rinse well , use a good quality teak bleach, two part follow directions. allow for the deck to dry for 48 hours or more in sunlight, to dry out to almost Grey. then sand the hell out of it with 80 grit paper, the smooth with 120 grit. Do not go any higher with the sanding grit, 120 would be the maximum, any more would make the decks too slippery. Use what ever deck oil and or teak coating you prefer.
the same cleaning solution will also clean tired gel coat as well, and use flood products , to rejuvenate the gel coat.

[the1much]

hmmmmm,,,,,,,,,,see kapt. sometimes i can just "hush" ;)

[GWB]

Another question:
Maintaining a wet edge has been mentioned a few times. How long will the edge stay wet? My boat has an 11' beam, so counting the cabin about 14' of edge will have to be wet while I roll and tip.

Also, does anybody know of a video that shows someone rolling and tipping?

Thanks for all the info on this thread

[the1much]

see kapt.,,,,,,and you said i was just a pervert when i asked if i could bring my video camera heh ;)
and your edge should stay wet long enough for you to get around,,,,but to be safe,,start at ya transom on a corner,,,start up ya hull,,,when ya get to the bow, go back and do the transom to the other corner, then go back to bow and work ya way down to the transom corner you just stopped at.,,,,,but take my advice with a grain of salt,,and wait for Kapt. to answer ya,,,,he's the snail painting expert :D
and i think i need to go back,,,,,are ya painting deck or hull ,,hehehe,,,,man i cant believe its meds. time already ;)
but if its deck,,,,it basically works same way,,,heh,,,maybe ;)

[Kaptin-Jer]

Jim, It sounds like time to post the pictures.

I Don't have a video, but a few years ago Ship Shape TV did a show on roll and tip - awl grip - not too bad, I do it a little different, but you might be able to pick up a tape of the show at West Marine or Big Mouth.

I do not go further that 8" (2 passes with the 4" roller) before I tip. Always in the same direction. Never stop, never go back.

[the1much]

heres the BEST roll and tip jobs i've seen

[Kaptin-Jer]

Thanks Jim, Here's some more. This is a 1989 Beneteau, Sunk in a hurricane, split in half and rolled. I paid $800.00 for it. It's taken 3 years to get to this point.

[Steve W]

A couple of years ago i was working on a Cherubini 44 which had been sprayed with awlgrip when new,the year prior to me laying new decks one side had been scratched up so the marina repainted that side only,since osha dosnt allow them to spray they roll and tipped it with awlgrip,i didnt know which side had been so i took a walk around it,the only way i could be sure which side was which was the orange peel on the sprayed side,the rolled side was much better,i was very impressed.
Steve.

[Kaptin-Jer]

Belive me, you can get orange peel , crawling, and all the other nasties that the paint gods can throw at you when roll & tipping too. I have seen them all.

[longliner45]

kaptin jer ..did you have to wet sand it?? I think maybe ,,but you know something I dont ,,,,,it looks great,,I am working a ice storm now ,,and will have more time ,later ,,longliner

[westsail42]

Another question:
Maintaining a wet edge has been mentioned a few times. How long will the edge stay wet? My boat has an 11' beam, so counting the cabin about 14' of edge will have to be wet while I roll and tip.

Also, does anybody know of a video that shows someone rolling and tipping?

Thanks for all the info on this thread

Depends on temperature and humidity. When I rolled/tipped Sterling on the hull of our 28 foot cruiser, years ago, I would say we had about 10 minutes on the wet edge before it resisted flowing out. That was an 80 degree, relatively dry, August day in Seattle.

Rolling and tipping a deck will be more of a challenge than doing the hull sides. What with all the bits and bobs on deck. Remove as many things from the deck as possible. Even if you have to take apart the inside to get to them.

Dont try it to paint it with one person. Get a second to help. One to roll on the paint (use good quality foam rollers, NOT the candy stripers), second person to tip (with a badger brush and tweezers in hand to pluck any brush hairs that come out).

Especially if it is a warm day, divide the paint into small batches and catalyze and thin, as you go. This can be tricky because the brushing catalyst might require induction time (about 20 minutes for Sterling if I recall). Why? If you catalyze it all at once, and it takes you an hour to cover the deck, the last part of the paint will have already started setting in the pot, making it more difficult to tip.

Plan your paint job such that you end in a area that will be noticed less (stern? coamings?).

Avoid thinning the paint too much as this will cause the paint to blush.

Retape between ALL applications of primer and color.

You really have to think things through thoroughly before you start. We ended putting on 5 coats of color before we got it "right". But we seem to be more of a perfectionist than the guy next to us.

If you can do, some test paint jobs on something else before trying the deck(offer to paint your friends beatup hard-shell glass dinghy or something).

Been there done that (with Sterling that is, have no experience with Interlux).

[Kaptin-Jer]

kaptin jer ..did you have to wet sand it?? I think maybe ,,but you know something I dont ,,,,,it looks great,,I am working a ice storm now ,,and will have more time ,later ,,longliner

No!! no wet sanding with Awl Grip. We have had a few debates on this in other threads and I conceed that if you must sand out a run it can be done, but it is not the correct (there's that word again) way. Awl Grip states that if you wet sand you will destroy the protective shell, but since Awl grip takes about a month to fully cure it can be done. ice ?? I only see that in my drinks. Stay warm.

[ratrace2]

Thanks Jim, Here's some more. This is a 1989 Beneteau, Sunk in a hurricane, split in half and rolled. I paid $800.00 for it. It's taken 3 years to get to this point.
****.....................god that is beautiful

[Kaptin-Jer]

Rat, Where in Jersey are you?

[ratrace2]

Rat, Where in Jersey are you?

I'm in Somerset, NJ, (exit 9) about 45 minutes from Mays Landing (Post) and Egg harbor, Most of my family is in Orlando...

[the1much]

every time i see the word "jersey",,,,i can hear that "almost" broklin accent hehehe ;)

[ratrace2]

every time i see the word "jersey",,,,i can hear that "almost" broklin accent hehehe ;)

I was born in W.Va, and grew up in Northern Va. (Alexandria).............just south of the mason/Dixon, Moved to Jersey in 83..........don't laugh to hard....I have been to Texas; actually, Brownsville.......Damn hot....no boats....hahahahhhehehehehe

[ratrace2]

hey Kaptin-jer:
I saw a boat at the marina on route 35, the motors have not started in eight years, the salon is colapsing and the hull is in bad shape. I think I can get it for $100. She is a 37 ft, Silverton and has a good line. Nice sportfisherman. She would be worth a mint, in mint condition..........

[ratrace2]

Brookyln.. =..Crookyln

[the1much]

dont laugh,,,,,,,im from maine,,,now here "in the land of non-skid" hehe ;)

[ratrace2]

Rat, Where in Jersey are you?
You should go see juiceclark in Ft.Meyers. He and a couple of friends is building a Longliner Favorite. 47' Key West #1 Sportfisherman

[Kaptin-Jer]

You should go see juiceclark in Ft.Meyers. He and a couple of friends is building a Longliner Favorite. 47' Key West #1 Sportfisherman

Don't like the West coast, Don't like stink pots. Like being grumpy. Raining , caint work on my boat

[mongo75]

I'm originally from Da Bronx, but now I'm out here in Southern California and LOVE it. Not too many days where you can't work on your boat...

[Kaptin-Jer]

Southern California! Another place like Texas with no redeeming qualities. Lived in both places, each for about 4 years. SoCal has the Santa Anna winds, Fire storms, Monsoon Rains, Mud slides, smog, Earthquakes. The water is too cold to swim in unless you have a wet suit. The people (all except Mongo) are weird. Enjoy your stay in socal. :D :D

[mongo75]

Thanks Kaptin, I'm not weird like these tree huggin freaks, but I am a little crazy LOL. Yeah, we got all the funny forces of nature out here, but I wouldn't trade my earthquakes for the rain, let alone hurricanes on the east coast. I HATE wind and rain hehe...

[ratrace2]

I drive the Cross Bronx exp....everyday......what are stink pots????

[Eagle Boats]

Hey Mongo, I grew up eight miles from Yankee Stadium in Yonkers. Have my shop on City Island, Bronx, NY, which is where they built the wooden 12 meter Americas Cup boats.

[mongo75]

Bringing back memories, some good, some bad-

- BAD- driving the Cross Bronx from Long Island to Manhattan, down to the Intrepid where my office was (recruiting college students)

- GOOD- me and the old man climbing down under the street level of the City Island bridge and catching porgys all day w/ the occasional blackfish or flounder. Or my favorite boat, the original North Star (is she still there??) How about jack and Sal, where you could rent a skiff for $40.... I lived on Sedgwick Ave and 197th st.

[ratrace2]

Hey, Gunny: I did the Intrepid tour when she was stationed in NY..
City Island, Think I'll stop by and visit Eagle....
Hey, Eagle:
How are you situated for resin & roving sourcing. Ever buy From Mahogany in Mays Landing, NJ?

[Eagle Boats]

I have never bought from Mahogany. I usually buy from Composites One in Rhode Island as well as a company on Long Island. How are the prices there? Getting ready to make new molds for my 16 foot sailboat so I will be needing tooling gel and resin.

[ratrace2]

I have never bought from Mahogany. I usually buy from Composites One in Rhode Island as well as a company on Long Island. How are the prices there? Getting ready to make new molds for my 16 foot sailboat so I will be needing tooling gel and resin.
Eagle,
Prices are pretty good, you have to "needle" a little bit though. I bought some specialty resin, very low viscosity for vacuum infusion, a little pricey. I have thought about buying from "Composites One" (I think I have heard about them) in the past but got some good prices from Lockwoods boat works in Hazlet. Who is in Long Island???? I think I'll try them too. But, ya know, there is a place--get this-- in Ohio that had the best, actually great, prices. I'll have to look them up. Maybe we can take a drive and buy a couple of drums together. Get a good break on price.....
I'm really itching to layup a 37 ft'er.

[ratrace2]

Check out Juiceclarks boat,

[Eagle Boats]

Composites One has a number of locations throughout the country. They carry everything you will need for composite construction. I also use a company called Dynagrout in Deer Park, Long Island. Prices are higher, but they offer good service. Lets see a picture of the boat you want to build.

[ratrace2]

:cool: Composites One has a number of locations throughout the country. They carry everything you will need for composite construction. I also use a company called Dynagrout in Deer Park, Long Island. Prices are higher, but they offer good service. Lets see a picture of the boat you want to build.
37' sunseaker tomahawk...:cool: :cool:

[juiceclark]

The 6" Porter&Cable Random Orbital Sanders mentioned earlier in this string are on sale at Lowe's (or at least they were last weekend) for only $59. I've had one for years and it is the handiest and toughest lil' machine in my workshop.

Thanks for referencing my project above. Material sources are so regional, I'm not sure I can be of any help outside FL. But if anyone is in the area, we have an incredibly helpful and comprehensive firm in Sarasota named Fiberglass Concepts that is supplying us for, on average, 60% off their catalog prices. Moreover, the owner of the company is a 35 year veteran of the biz and has stopped-by several times with helpful tidbits....that's worth a lot to any project!


Tony in Sw FL

[alan white]

The 6" Porter&Cable Random Orbital Sanders mentioned earlier in this string are on sale at Lowe's (or at least they were last weekend) for only $59. I've had one for years and it is the handiest and toughest lil' machine in my workshop.

Thanks for referencing my project above. Material sources are so regional, I'm not sure I can be of any help outside FL. But if anyone is in the area, we have an incredibly helpful and comprehensive firm in Sarasota named Fiberglass Concepts that is supplying us for, on average, 60% off their catalog prices. Moreover, the owner of the company is a 35 year veteran of the biz and has stopped-by several times with helpful tidbits....that's worth a lot to any project!


Tony in Sw FL

A minor correction---- Lowes doesn't carry Porter Cable 6" sanders or sandpaper discs for that matter. Only 5". The 5" would discount to the price mentioned, but the 6" goes at least $110.00 and wouldn't discount that low.
I wasn't happy to discover their not carrying 6" discs.
They carry at least a dozen 5" RO sanders, but zero 6", which is a far more effective tool on most projects.

Alan

[juiceclark]

You're right! I guess that little bugger is a 5". Love it anyway....here's what the 6" looks like:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Porter-Cable-7336-6-Variable-Spd-Random-Orbit-Sander_W0QQitemZ130214775219QQihZ003QQcategoryZ42286QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247

This is my 5". It's more of a "palm sander" design. That little dustbin sure fills with glass dust in a hurry...but catches most of it:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Porter-Cable-343K-5-RANDOM-ORBIT-SANDER-KIT_W0QQitemZ140216480507QQihZ004QQcategoryZ632QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247

[ratrace2]

JuiceClark,
Big Guy, we have another option: The porter-Cable "variable speed", 4" x 24" belt sander--with the bag attachment that is connected to a Vacuum Cleaner.
This sander, in the hands of a "truly" inspired individual can work wonders in a very, very short amount of time. I have used just this tool on many occasions for leveling "solid-wood" table tops built from 6 quarter Rock Maple. Of course, there is a little trick you are going to want to use. Should I tell you???
OK, get yourself a 4' straight edge and a sharpie (black). Lay your staight-edge (ships Curve) or what ever profile tool you want to use, down and mark the high spots, i.e. the spots that "TOUCH" touch the bottom of the straight edge--don't mark the spots that don't touch the straight edge--then sand a "little". Rinse, repeat. Warning: don't get too aggressive with the grit, go with a 220 belt grit...develop your technique. In other words, it's all "touch".
This tool, priced at about $240 (USD), and about 3 belts later, will probably cut your sanding time by 70%.


Right you are, regionality with suppliers is a problem. If you are close to a big volume suppler, or a very depressed one, you can get good deals, if the salesman doesn't try to srew you over. Your guy (Fiberglass Concepts) might be a real option for both Eagle and I. The only problem is those darn haz-mat shipping costs....

[ratrace2]

Porter-Cable 4 x 24" Sander:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250238110390

[naturewaterboy]

Kaptin-Jer and everyone,

Thanks for the good discussion on random orbital sanders. I've got a big project going and I'm getting ready to do a lot of sanding (I have a few picts posted on another post - "what tools are needed to repair a large recored deck").

I'm trying to decide which 6" random orbital I want to buy. I think I'm going to get the Festool ETS 150/3 EQ at $275, or maybe the Makita BO6030 at $189. I like the idea of having a good dust collection system - I figured I'll hook a small shop vac I have to the sander.

Anyone have thoughts on these - do I have to buy paper made for the brand of sander? I do want good dust collection. How long does the paper last - any recommendations on how much of what grits to buy for my project? I probably have about 50 sq. ft. of deck to finish.

[westsail42]

I dont have either the Festool or Makita, but, Festool makes some really good stuff. Had I not already had a RO sander, I would go with the Festool. "Buy the best and cry once". Especially if you go with their dust collection system. It is pretty trick.

On paper, I would say you dont *have* to use their brand of paper. The 3M green stuff is good, if it fits/attaches, use it even if you have to punch holes in it. On quantities, use lots of paper. Change the paper frequently, There is nothing worse than sanding with worn out paper. It is hard to guage how much as it will depend on how much you are sanding off and how hard you press.

By the paper by the roll, and dont hesitate to change it frequently.

[Kaptin-Jer]

"I'm trying to decide which 6" random orbital I want to buy. I think I'm going to get the Festool ETS 150/3 EQ at $275, or maybe the Makita BO6030 at $189. I like the idea of having a good dust collection system - I figured I'll hook a small shop vac I have to the sander. "

Bite the bullet and get the Festool. If you can afford it also get the Festool dust collector. It's a great match. The paper is proprietary, at least I haven't been able to find a generic that matches, but it is easily available and on the web too.

[naturewaterboy]

Thanks, Kaptin. I just read an article on the Festool 150/3 (actually a comparison to the 5" Model 125), written by a woodworker -

http://www.festoolusa.com/Web_files/RO_125_Review.pdf?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

it discusses that they are dual action - "rotex" for agressive sanding and "eccentric" for fine sanding. Do you use both modes? The author speaks very highly of the dust collection ability of the Festool sanders - I'm sold.

I want good dust collection, but the Festool dust collector is a bit pricey at $300. The article discusses that the paper has a center hole that blows air out - this is the big difference that makes them better with dust. My boat is outside, so I don't need HEPA filtering. I just want to get the dust away from the work. Can I use a shop vac? Do you have a Festool dust extractor? Thanks for all the help.

[naturewaterboy]

One other question I have is about the pads - what all pads do you suggest?

[naturewaterboy]

After reading some Festool info, I realized they make two "150" 6 inch sanders - the ETS 150/3 EQ Sander ($275), and the RO 150 FEQ Rotex Sander ($475). The more expensive one has dual action - rotary and random orbital. I would think I just need the random orbital - any rotary I'll do with my 7" grinder - true?

[naturewaterboy]

Holy crap! I just discovered a third Festool 150 sander....my head is starting to hurt... I may quit and go back to my sanding block....

The third one is a ETS 150/5 EQ Sander - it is random orbital but with a longer stroke - 3/16" or 5 mm. The 150/3 has a 1/8" or 3 mm stroke.

Kaptin, do you recommend the 150/3?

[Jimbo1490]

Jer,

It's really a triple action since it goes from random orbit to 'epicycloid' orbit (geared DA) to rotary. It's a 'do everythng' sander. Most tools that try to do several tasks are just mediocre at several tasks, but the RO 150 is great at all the tasks it can perform.

Jimbo

[Kaptin-Jer]

Jimbo is right. I use both settings, they both do as advertised. If you are jumping in go all the way. Get the 6" you'll be glade you did. I used a small shop vac for a while. Burned it out. Now I'm saving for the Festool.

[the1much]

Jimbo is right. I use both settings, they both do as advertised. If you are jumping in go all the way. Get the 6" you'll be glade you did. I used a small shop vac for a while. Burned it out. Now I'm saving for the Festool.

dammit!! you know i hate it when someone says he's right!! hahahaha :D :D ;)

[Kaptin-Jer]

I say your right, too (most of the time)

[naturewaterboy]

Ohhh.... so you say go for the RO at $475.... this is starting to eat into my gas and bait money.... do you use it in rotary - in place of a 7" angle grinder? Does it pick up the dust as well in rotary? Just trying to justify in my head the extra $200 over the plain jane $275 orbital.....

[the1much]

it will whisper softly in your ear about how good of a guy you are to care for your boat sooooo much that you spent the extra $200 :D

[Kaptin-Jer]

No I use my grinder as a grinder.
Dust pick up is good at both settings
Jim will come wisper in your ear

[Jimbo1490]

I kinda miss mine sometimes. I bought it at the '01 IBEX down in Ft Lauderdale on the last day of the show new in the box for $280, which is a steal, I know. I used it a couple of times but mostly it just sat. Keep in mind I own like 9 or 10 air sanders, all of them top line industrial tools from Dynabrade, Hutchins, etc. I just don't have much need for a good electric sander. I bought it cause it was so pretty. It was an impulse buy.

So one day I'm looking on ebay and saw one USED sell for like $305! So I said to myself "Before that thing sits around too long around here and gets oversprayed (then nobody will want it) I better put it up on ebay." I cleaned it up, still had the box and paperwork and all. It went for $325, but it did look like new, after all.

Jimbo

[Kaptin-Jer]

I kinda miss mine sometimes. I bought it at the '01 IBEX down in Ft Lauderdale on the last day of the show new in the box for $280, which is a steal, I know. I used it a couple of times but mostly it just sat. Keep in mind I own like 9 or 10 air sanders, all of them top line industrial tools from Dynabrade, Hutchins, etc. I just don't have much need for a good electric sander. I bought it cause it was so pretty. It was an impulse buy.

So one day I'm looking on ebay and saw one USED sell for like $305! So I said to myself "Before that thing sits around too long around here and gets oversprayed (then nobody will want it) I better put it up on ebay." I cleaned it up, still had the box and paperwork and all. It went for $325, but it did look like new, after all.

Jimbo


I think I was the one who bought it.

[naturewaterboy]

Ok, Jim, but just my left ear......

thanks Kaptin. I guess it will only hurt for a little while. Mebbe I'll look on ebay...

[mongo75]

Let's say you're kinda not financially ready to pick up a Festool..... what do ya'll say about the common Bosch, Dewalt, or Craftsman DA sanders- they're definitely in my price range, and I only really need it for doing one boat, so longevity (past this project) is not a major concern.

[ratrace2]

Personally,
I'd go down to the local auto-body supply store and get a "taiwan" special for $50.00, and rent a compressor from Home depot..........

[naturewaterboy]

The DA sander - what is the "rotex" mode best for? Do you switch back and forth from rotex to orbital while sanding?

[ratrace2]

Come on man, go buy a $50.00 DA and try both modes.......I haven't even considered what the "rotex" mode is in so long I don't even know. Ya get the stright spin for grinding and random for smoothing.
"do you build them or just tune them? if ya put a little 600 on the DA you can add a full to the pitch.........

[mongo75]

Ratrace how's your boat project coming along?

[the1much]

Ratrace how's your boat project coming along?

he's repairing a hole in the hull :confused:
his thumb hit the wrong switch on his sander :confused: :rolleyes: :p :P :P :D

[mongo75]

Now that's funny!!

[naturewaterboy]

ratrace,
I build and tune steel drums. Working on stainless steel construction now. Got sidetracked on this boat tho - I'll tune the drums on the boat if I can find calm enuf water to drop anchor in... hard to tune a drum when the thing is swinging around:D

[Kaptin-Jer]

Naturewaterboy, next time you come up to civilization give me a holler. I'll let you buy me a cup of coffee. My email is listed.

[naturewaterboy]

Ok, I owe you a cup for your patience and good info - thanks very much. I'm going to get the Rotex 150 and hook a shop vac to it. I won't be doing any more work on the boat until November - have some other task to do until then.

[Kaptin-Jer]

There are a couple of places locally to get what you want, when you are ready let me know.

[david@boatsmith]

the pc 6" da will work fine . for paint and nonskid removal you probably want to start with 40 or 60 grit. also you will want to replace the pad with a harder one that wiil be easier to keep things flat David

[naturewaterboy]

thanx - I'll stock up on 40 grit pads. I may go visit Kaptin Jer and pick up a Festool DA with all the pads, paper and stuff, or I may just order everything on line and have it shipped - I gotta drive thru that dreaded Miami to get up his way....

[david@boatsmith]

International tools in Dania has a lot of tools . They are on line and ship. David

[Kaptin-Jer]

I keep my boat in Dania, That is where I get my sand paper.