About a floating island which the bottom is similar to barge.

[kilbysg]

Well, i am designing a floating island so i am wandering what would be my inner structure? should i use the type of structure like on the barge? Please help me my senior engineers....

Cool Kilby Here...
:confused: :confused: :confused:

[masalai]

Where? to float freely in the oceans or be tethered as part of a resort development of something? For how long? How big? Is it to be self moveable?

[ted655]

http://www.sub-find.com/jellyfish.htm
Open "Habitats" (top, far right tab)

[Kay9]

I would think the real question would be, whats going on top of the barge/island and how heavy and where are the attachment points for the structor. I would think that would allmost dictate your internal structor

K9

[masalai]

Maybe he just wants to keep his personal harem out of "harms way" - don't need much for that, but easier to do on a small island... or a cheap boat

[Kay9]

If thats the case Masalai I would go with a foam topside covered in plastic for easy cleanup :)

K9

[jehardiman]

Google:

"Forbes Island San Francisco"

[kilbysg]

Where? to float freely in the oceans or be tethered as part of a resort development of something? For how long? How big? Is it to be self moveable?
Its only 70 feet in length, 40 feet max.breadth and 6.5 feet depth of sheer to bottom... well, im planning to float it in a lagoon or a lake, not so much water disturbance like ocean or open seas, its like a yacht but no motor it self... the thing is, it is only towed by other motored vessel.

[masalai]

And the rest? What purpose, can an appropriately sized tug get in to move it, how will you anchor it, To carry passengers/paying guests? Insurance demands, Survey requirements, life expectancy will all probably determine the answers by way of legislation & insurance costs....

[kilbysg]

Actually its private, no guest will pay the entry. For example it will only seat on the bay and near the coastline. Tugging will be possible if the owner wants a new view or site.

[oops!]

no big deal......

just a big house boat......

4 alum pontoons......each 78 feet long......alum stringers between the toons and a floor.....

what you put on it... will tell you what to use as the floor.

[masalai]

Hallelujah. Mission accomplished?

[kilbysg]

Wow, thanks!!!!

THen i will have enough room for my machineries like generator and pumps underneath my deck.

And the pontoons will act as my floater and not my flat hull...

Hmm... interesting...:idea: :idea: :idea:

Now what will i do is to do some modifiactions on my design...

Thank you seniores...

[PAR]

If it was only that easy . . .

[kilbysg]

If it was only that easy . . .
not actually, still had a problem... The client doesn't want that idea of pontoons.
He just need it flat... Because the launching of this thing will not be as much of the vessels being launch at the drydocks such as slipways or floating dock. The Thing here is, the whole of it is being divided into sections which is fit inside the container every sections respectively. After moving to a bay or lagoon, a crane will carry them and seat on the water and mate them all. This sounds crazy but this is what we should do. But still, its kinda interesting(on my part).
:) :) :)

[masalai]

Same/same, in 40 ft containers make sections 39 ft long or less and mounting girders to run across. You as an engineer should be able to do the rest. Otherwise look at the methods of making floating marina fingers of concrete covered foam. - It is common technique here in Aus & fairly long lived...

[kilbysg]

And you know what??? This sections will be bolted inside... There will be no welding works when these sections mate. Yeah, you are right, i need to do the rest...and still I have to be more resourceful because there is still an irregularity of the design unlike with the other marine vessels which already has a common hull shape and structural membrane...

:) :) :)

[Kay9]

Send the consulting check care of Masalai, Buderim, Queensland AU.

[kilbysg]

Thanks kay9, i will do that after defining some parts and i will let masalai check it.

:) :) :)

[masalai]

I'm cheap, just regular brownie points in the "Post Feedback" pop up :D (dont forget to sign it so a reciept can be issued...:D

Thanks K9 ::::: to you too... Hope the cheque is in the mail - will cheque now:D

[rwatson]

One idea that came to me is - make the hull sections the same floor area as containers, but stacked 2 or 3 high to standard container height, with the same cargo attachments - out of steel, so the "container is the hull", Then instead of the cost of carting steel boxes around with other fibreglass boxes inside, just cart the hulls around as containers.
You could have attachable fibreglass shells to cover the locking mechanisms when they are in the water to prevent fouling, and others that sit on top to act as decks and keep the sun off the steel, like the pontoons mentioned befors
Might work!

[masalai]

rwatson, methinks "davids chances may be better - he has only 80 miles? to go in a nearly broken alloy tri/try......

[rwatson]

rwatson, methinks "davids chances may be better - he has only 80 miles? to go in a nearly broken alloy tri/try......

Sorry - what are you talking about?

[kach22i]

You might want to look at the artist renderings of the US Navy's "Seabasing" concept, just for some different ideas.

I think a few articles and pdf's describe how they could be built.

[masalai]

Sorry RW, mind temporarily in a confused state. Containers as in "shipping" type are not light nor really appropriate for continuing immersion if longevity is necessary. but with cheap "used" containers, fill with foam, weld on connecting plates so they can be bolted together. This would give a couple of years use at minimal cost & ease to repair/replace at around $600 each plus "foam" and welding on the connecting plates ready to be bolted together.. to almost any size desired...?

[rwatson]

Containers as in "shipping" type are not light nor really appropriate for continuing immersion if longevity is necessary. ..?

Fair enough - standard containers would be dreadfull things to try to float.
What a really said though was "container sized"
I also said they would be stacked (2 or 3 high) to "container height".
I didnt say they were containers.

But if you built your own "containers" (to ISO measurements) , with smooth sides and efficient weight loads, with appropriate loading strengths (probably similar to what you would need to bolt them together) - you might manage the trick.
I assume (maybe wrongly) is that as long as the outside envelope is ISO, and appropriate anchor points are there, you can have any type of material. You might even just need to have a heavy duty frame to hold the components together. Any boat hull you build will be very robust and resiliant to the elements, which is not often the case of what goes inside containers, so it doesnt need heavy steel protection like cars and whitegoods.
Used containers are only cheap because they are approaching the end of their life, so they need replacing more often
Also, weight is charged for, so reducing the tonnage would be usefull.
Also, when you get the containers to the floating site - where do you store them, cheaply?
In theory, it should be possible to create a floating platform made up of standardised modules that can be transported and charged the same as containers.
Isnt theory great :-)

[kilbysg]

You might want to look at the artist renderings of the US Navy's "Seabasing" concept, just for some different ideas.

I think a few articles and pdf's describe how they could be built.

Would tell me the link of what you did said about the US Navy's "Seabasing"?

[kach22i]

Would tell me the link of what you did said about the US Navy's "Seabasing"?
do a search in the forum - look for "post".

Or try Google.com

Some of the best information and images are in powerpoint and pdf's found doing a Google search.

I'd use the phrase: US NAVY SEABASING

[kilbysg]

Here I am again my senior Naval Architects.
I'm here to ask how much is the excess part of the O-ring should be from the face of the metal? Is there a standard for designing the grove?
Since I mentioned before that my floating island is divided into sections and these will be bolted on the water, and I am using the O-ring seal so that the water won't penetrate easily and prevent the water coming inside the holes for the bolts.
Please check out the file I attached in this post.

:) :) :)
Thanks

[jehardiman]

Here I am again my senior Naval Architects.
I'm here to ask how much is the excess part of the O-ring should be from the face of the metal? Is there a standard for designing the grove?
Since I mentioned before that my floating island is divided into sections and these will be bolted on the water, and I am using the O-ring seal so that the water won't penetrate easily and prevent the water coming inside the holes for the bolts.
Please check out the file I attached in this post.

:) :) :)
Thanks

Yes there are standards, and no, that is not the way to do it. Use flat faces and a trim in place gasket material.

[kilbysg]

Thanks for your quick response senior jehardiman.
So where am I able to get the standard for the grove?
What I have here is a diameter of 20 mm.

[jehardiman]

Thanks for your quick response senior jehardiman.
So where am I able to get the standard for the grove?
What I have here is a diameter of 20 mm.

Thats the point, an O-ring that big won't seal as the press area is too uneven. Go back to a woven seal with tar or sealent. It's only low pressure.

[rwatson]

JH is correct - its not an O ring because it has an O section, but only when the whole thing looks like a ring. Like a toilet pipe gasket.
It might be the drawing, but these designs look decidely two dimensional to me.
You will actually need a U shape gasket ( maybe with an O section).
The bottom of the U will run nearly the width of the hull, the two sides of the U will need to be at least as high as the waterline. (See attached childlike drawing.)
To be safe, you may want to have two of these (one smaller than the other) which seems to be what you are planning in those drawings.
My preference wold be to have the internal walls as high as the waterline, so you wouldnt need any kind of gasket. It would be just one more thing to build and go wrong.

[kilbysg]

Oh, I see what you mean Sir Jehar. But, what about if I make the grove deeper enough which, the volume space of the grove and the part of the o-ring exposed above the grove is equal (approximately), then I can have an even press area. Do you think it's a good idea?

[kilbysg]

I already had a section drawing that shows the linear of the gasket. Just like the drawing you had.
But sir RW, how would i design the grove for the gasket? How deep it should be?

[jehardiman]

Oh, I see what you mean Sir Jehar. But, what about if I make the grove deeper enough which, the volume space of the grove and the part of the o-ring exposed above the grove is equal (approximately), then I can have an even press area. Do you think it's a good idea?

Not really. O-rings work because they have very small gaps that do not allow the soft o-ring to be extruded. If you had an O-ring that large with comperable gap space, it would have to have a duro too high to allow proper sealing pressure to be generated within normal tolerances. To lower the sealing pressure would require machining over the face that I know you cannot afford (think millions of US$). Woven gaskets will take up tolerances in the range that you are looking at with your construction methods.

[brian eiland]

You should consider the same ideas they use for sectional barges. Built of flat plate steel in dimensions that will stack in place of a container rather than fit inside one. Cheap & doable any third world country.

FexiFloat
http://www.flexifloat.com/(fgt3y255c3hlpibzxtzpdlnk)/home.aspx?PageID=home

http://www.flexifloat.com/(fgt3y255c3hlpibzxtzpdlnk)/flexifloatcatalog.aspx?PageID=catalog

Poseidon barges
http://www.poseidonbarge.com/?gclid=CIvbv5LP_JECFRGoGgodLSk0_A

http://odsmarine.com/docs/sectionals.html

http://www.marineinland.com/boat3.htm

http://www.smithbarge.com/sectional.html

http://www.madisonboatandbarge.com/id22.html

http://www.shugart-mfg.com/bargepushers.htm

http://www.bargesystems.com/pictures.htm

http://www.bargesystems.com/inventory.htm

[kilbysg]

JH is correct - its not an O ring because it has an O section, but only when the whole thing looks like a ring. Like a toilet pipe gasket.
It might be the drawing, but these designs look decidely two dimensional to me.
You will actually need a U shape gasket ( maybe with an O section).
The bottom of the U will run nearly the width of the hull, the two sides of the U will need to be at least as high as the waterline. (See attached childlike drawing.)
To be safe, you may want to have two of these (one smaller than the other) which seems to be what you are planning in those drawings.
My preference wold be to have the internal walls as high as the waterline, so you wouldnt need any kind of gasket. It would be just one more thing to build and go wrong.

Sir RW, may you explain to me why should I have two gaskets with different sizes just to be safe? And also the main reason I am using those gaskets is to prevent the water penetrate on the holes for the bolt, because the level of those bolts is below the waterline.

[TeddyDiver]

Instead of using "throw the hull" bolts I'd use either
1. Bolts under the hull. It's idiot safe and nowadays there's a lot of divers around..
2. If that's still a problem so making a kind of latch btw the hulls wich could be operated from the deck. Again no holes...

[kilbysg]

Somehow I am looking and analyzing the links that Sir Brian posted earlier.

[rwatson]

Thank you Brian E.
Hull sections that are the same size as a container is what I postulated back on 20th Feb - so nice to see that I can have a viable idea every now and then.
Kilbysg - thanks for the further explanation of what it is that your O rings are for - that concept didnt come across in your drawings. I understand what you saying.
I think you should look carefully at the links in Brian E's last post as well - there are some good concepts there.
By way of explanation on the concept of "two gaskets, one smaller than the other " I attach another rough sketch with the concept I was alluding to.
As regards smaller O rings ( they would truly be O rings ) for individual bolts, I see in my mind two large metal hulls slowly squashing and compressing and grinding 5 or 10 small 3 inch rubber doughnuts, as water and wind move the hulls around - and it appears to me that might create a number of small problem areas that would cause leaks.
Two big big U shaped gaskets could be very thick and robust and actually prevent moving and "chaffing" of the two hull sections while maintaining watertightness.
Something to consider.
Do you think you will end up actually building something - it would be fun to see. Also, is this really for a "client", or is it your project ?

[kilbysg]

Sir RW - regarding on your question "Do you think you will end up actually building something?", I will say "YES" we will end up building something. Its one of our projects, and our first client would be my Boss's Partner in our Research & Development and Outsource Engineering... BANDACORP PI INC. (http://www.bandacorp.com)
and it would be really fun to build this one. And it is really interesting too (cool!)
As for the gasket, i think i will end up using a square sectioned gasket instead of O sectioned.
and as for the leak, we may put some cork like thing to suck on the holes and then when on the other side, the bolts are being pushed on, the cork like thing will loose on the holes while the bolts are being screwed on, so it will prevent a small water leakage. actually, we are prepared on that kind of problem, just getting the best idea and stay on track.

By the way, thanks for your previous explanation.
I hope you might have time to visit our website.

[kilbysg]

My section spacing for the island has a span of 2230 mm (this span is what I've divided the whole island to fit on the container), so what i'm planning to do is locate 3 ordinary frames in that section (which is the both ends are my watertight bulkheads).
Then I have a bulkhead spacing of 2230 mm; a transverse frame spacing of 557.5 mm (to be exactly) and longitudinal spacing of 500 mm...:rolleyes:
Here is an attachment drawing in 2d to for your review base on what I am talking about...:idea: :idea: :idea:
And please tell me if I am on the right track.:confused:

Hope for your response and good guidance...:) :) :)
Best regards,
Kilby:cool:

[kilbysg]

any ideas please???

[kach22i]

Just something which came up earlier in the thread.

http://www.globalsecurity.org
Amphibious Cargo Beaching Lighter
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/acbl.htm
Because an extensive market survey did not reveal any commercial source for either of these technologies, a development program was begun by the Navy under funding from the Office of Naval Research (ONR). Via this program NFESC successfully developed concepts for both rigid and flexible SS3 connectors. It became clear that an open-sea connection system would be required to assemble platforms in theater. This system would need both rigid (module to module, e.g., for assembly of a causeway section) and flexible (section to section, e.g., for assembly of a causeway ferry) connectors.

[kach22i]

UPDATE: 12/12/2008

Floating dock (for hovercraft LCAC), good details on how the Seabasing platform goes together.

chl.erdc.usace.army.mil/Media/5/7/JMLS%20Update.ppt

Copy and paste the above into the top line of your browser, may want to load as a document.

[masalai]

Very interesting, Thanks kach....

[rasorinc]

I cannot get a response from that address---tried 3 times. Stan

[masalai]

It will download a "powerpoint" file use Mozilla firefox and it will automatically download it for you.... It is a free download for windows XP, - but vista is not supported as it is krap....