Future Sportfisherman Looks like the Past?

[juiceclark]

About 150+ miles off Sanibel Island, FL is a fastastic fishing grounds. If you follow the water temperature charts, you can get into everything from swordfish to marlin, tuna, and fill-up on reef fish all the way back to shore. Not everyone wants a go-fast Viking or Bertram for this expensive trip - especially when those deep V hulls make you want to puke at slow speeds.

So, I can't help but wonder if boats like this "sportfisherman" for sale on YachtWorld are the way of the future. It's not nearly sportfisherman-like enough for my tastes but it's economy is tempting. Perhaps about 5 more feet of beam:

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/photoGallery.jsp??access=Public&currency=USD&listing_id=10864&units=Feet&boat_id=1205567&back=boatDetail.jsp&boat_id=1205567

Someone is going to hit the jackpot by putting the best qualities of an efficient trawler, comfortable cruiser, practical and tough sportfisherman together with some sailing capability....perhaps old tech or the new "ship sails". I'm not capable of such imagination, but I'll take your company public when you draw it! In case any of you rag boaters don't know, this is a sportfisherman:
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatFullDetails.jsp?boat_id=1773234&checked_boats=1773234&ybw=&units=Feet&currency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=11384&url=

Here's Nordhavn's try and miss:
http://www.nordhavn.com/75/overview.php

Tony in Sw FL

[lewisboats]

What do you need 8' more beam for?...slim and sleek make for better efficiency anyways and that has more sheer (and shear) CLASS than I have seen in a long time.

Steve

[Tad]

Unfortunately the beautiful "Hawksbill" will remain on the market a long time. This is because owning any yacht is more about status than actual use. She shows 400 engine hours in 18 years, an average of 22 hours use per year. I think the average for all power boats is about 25 hours under way!

I have recently had conversations with a potential client about changing a PL46 to suit deep ocean sportfishing and long ocean transits. Below is a quick revision of a recent PL motorsailor sketch. This boat is designed for sheathed strip construction but could be also built in aluminum. The fishing cockpit is about 9' fore & aft and 11' wide. The owner's cabin is aft, opening off the cockpit. 1600 usg of fuel is amidships under the pilothouse with small (80-100HP) twin engines. Galley, lower dining, head and one or two more cabins forward.

For those who would like to try fishing the Azores or Midway!

18769

[charmc]

Nice design, Tad.

Brian Eiland, another forum contributer, did a motorsail cat-hulled sportfishing design: http://www.runningtideyachts.com/gamefishing/

These concepts all make sense. While there will always be a wealthy few willing to pay huge fuel bills, there is no reason not to enjoy fishing with more comfort and less environmental impact.

[buckknekkid]

how do you back down on a Marlin when the sails are up?? I liked the tiffany :p

[skullhooker]

The problem with slow and 120 miles offshore.......you'll get worked.

Tuna fishing on the east coast, and forecasting the weather 120 miles out is like guessing what conditions will be like on your coast driving across the state from mine. We've got lucky, and got beat up plenty too. Boats have gone down out there, it gets too rough and they run out of fuel. Microbursts in thunderstorms with whiteout conditions and the occaisional rouge waves can do you in. So any travel that far needs to be taken real seriously. With speed you can get back, dodge heavy weather with radar, etc. However, there are planty of commercial fishing vessels lumbering along doin' just fine, it's just a long..... hard..... trip.

I went on a long range fishing trip out of Tarpon Springs on the Viking party boat a couple of winters ago, and man, the middle grounds got real rough. Luckily we were on a big steel boat that was quite the stable fishing platform. The shallower waters off your coast make the chop worse.

Good luck!

[Tad]

When fuel hits $5-6.00 a gallon the use of the monster high-speed boats will be somewhat curtailed, (I hope!). Personally I'll be happy if the fish 120 miles out are left alone to prosper.

The conversion of these big fuel hogs is going to be a growth industry someday, perhaps soon. The addition of wave-piercing bow extensions, stern fairings, and changing the big MTU's to a smaller single engine will be interesting work. Perhaps just cut the crankshaft to run on four cylinders instead of 16!

Tad

[buckknekkid]

i was tootleing along in a 58 hatteras Yacht fish coming home from a trip around the keys.. every 60+ unit that went blasting by me would give me a woody.. Now I sit at the dock or putter around on one engine, BUT Im still boating !!!!!!!:D :D :D

[brian eiland]

how do you back down on a Marlin when the sails are up??


Excerpts from a Sea Trial Article by Professional Capt. Rick Gaffney:

"The designer " was asked to grapple with some of the unique requirements of a good sportfishing machine--the ability to back up quickly and maneuver with agility--then mesh them with a hull design that would not only perform well under sail, but also under power alone. The results are probably as close as anyone could come to the perfect compromise."

"She converts into a highly maneuverable powerboat in about as much time as it takes to drop a bait back and hook a billfish in her teasers, and once under diesel power, her widely separated, fully reversible props allow her to pursue even the most agile billfish with impressive agility."

"She backs down at over 10 knots without burying her two transom doors."

"Modern roller-furling sails roll up automatically like old-time window shades, ready for deployment at the pull of a line."

Rick Gaffney: A saltwater fly-rod world record holder, Capt. Gaffney has pursued big-game fish as an angler, charter boat captain, and photojournalist for well over 30 years.

Tara Vana: A custom-designed 50 ft gamefishing/sailing catamaran operating out of the Pacific island of Bora Bora



....want to read more?

http://www.runningtideyachts.com/archives/TaraTour1.html (http://www.runningtideyachts.com/archives/TaraTour1.html)

[brian eiland]

Unfortunately the beautiful "Hawksbill" (http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp;jsessionid=dtm8vbnmUol5?boat_id=1205567&checked_boats=1205567&ybw=&units=Feet&currency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=10864&url=)will remain on the market a long time.

I was so tempted to buy this vessel as a liveboard a few years ago when she was first offered by her long time owner. Unfortuntely I was also planning to move to Thailand, and the two thoughts were in conflict.

[brian eiland]

... Someone is going to hit the jackpot by putting the best qualities of an efficient trawler, comfortable cruiser, practical and tough sportfisherman together with some sailing capability....perhaps old tech or the new "ship sails". I'm not capable of such imagination, but I'll take your company public when you draw it! In case any of you rag boaters don't know, this is a sportfisherman:[Tony in Sw FL

I'll take that 'funding', but I think its going to be a tough jackpot to win, even if it makes sense. I've pushed the concept for awhile now....unsuccesfully.

A few other forum discussions:

Gamefishing for Sail Under Sail
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/general-sailing-discussion/1548-gamefishing-sail-under-sail-power.html

Offshore Sportfishing Motorsailer, innovations & alternatives
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/general-sportfish-discussion/5823-offshore-sportfishing-innovations-alternatives.html

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14900

[Pericles]

Tad,

You are fortunate that you are outside the EU and the UK. We pay £4-72 per UK gallon, which is 4.54 litres and at today's rate that is $9.27 Canadian for petrol (gas). Diesel is even more per gallon and access to Red diesel (lower tax) for pleasure craft will be curtailed at the end of this year. An element of UK tax on petrol and DERV (road diesel) is for the privilege of maintaining our roads, so the boating fraternity pays directly for something their boats can't use. Most UK motor cruisers over 40 feet are houseboats.

The really fast sailing catamaran will soon be essential for sport fishing. Where have I heard that before Brian? :D :D

Regards,

Pericles

[brian eiland]

.....The conversion of these big fuel hogs is going to be a growth industry someday, perhaps soon. The addition of wave-piercing bow extensions, stern fairings, and changing the big MTU's to a smaller single engine will be interesting work. Perhaps just cut the crankshaft to run on four cylinders instead of 16!
Tad
That's an interesting thought, Tad :idea:

Meantime, I am still baffled by the fuel consumption and cost these guys care willing to endure....just BIG money in the sport of gamefishing.

I'll bet the first guys in this group to adopt new ways will be the charter guys. Reference this posting:
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/4891-post7.html

[FAST FRED]

"Perhaps just cut the crankshaft to run on four cylinders instead of 16!"

Not really a need to anymore, with the modern electronic control if the injectors the Black Box can run it as a 2,3,4,5,6,7 what ever you need.

The box fires different cylinders each time , keeping the engine up to temperature.

I think M-B now does this in their passenger cars , so a bit of software to do it with any electronic engine is just a phone call to an Indian software shop away.

FF

[buckknekkid]

Its certainly interesting but can you give us a run down on the procedure, crew involved and where is the darn fish while youre doing all this,??:D :D

[Pericles]

Are you serious? :D The catamaran has engines. The sails have been roller reefed. Just like a sport fisher, without the horrendous fuel costs. The guests are seated in their fighting chairs, lights, action!:D :D :D

The catamaran is a far more stable and spacious fishing platform. Carry more guests, earn more moolah!:D :D

"What's not to like?" as you North Americans are fond of saying.:D

The only two changes in procedure as I see them, will be less vomit to clear up and an armoured car to take the dinero to the Wells Fargo depot.

I want one.

Pericles

[Tad]

I don't track it too closely (rarely buy the stuff) but we're (coastal BC Canada) currently paying about $1.10 per L or around $5.00 per imperial gallon. I believe Canada now "owns" the largest oil reserves (Tar sands) but it will be given to the US for peanuts, under the "free trade" agreement.

[buckknekkid]

Are you serious? :D The catamaran has engines. The sails have been roller reefed. Just like a sport fisher, without the horrendous fuel costs. The guests are seated in their fighting chairs, lights, action!:D :D :D

The catamaran is a far more stable and spacious fishing platform. Carry more guests, earn more moolah!:D :D

"What's not to like?" as you North Americans are fond of saying.:D

The only two changes in procedure as I see them, will be less vomit to clear up and an armoured car to take the dinero to the Wells Fargo depot.

I want one.

Pericles

so technically its under power however slowly for trolling, like most sailbotes are 80% slow power boats.


The time to get to the fish is critical, as for the charter group , unless its a head boat these guys want cigars, booze, fish and speed. I chartered and drove the crowd around for many years and unless youre on an island with a captive group they'll take the sporty over anything.. how can you charge for 8 hours of fishing when it takes 6 to get there???

[Pericles]

There are a large number of considerations that must be taken into account, agreed. Wind direction for one, but there is is a large market of potential sport fisher men and women who cannot afford the fuel prices, who would warm to the idea of 30 knot sailing catamarans from which to go fishing.

The prototype is yet to be built, but 5 years ago a glimpse of what is possible was published below.

http://www.deltayachtsbrokerage.com/news/YWorld_gb62.pdf

This is market driven. When the owners of the high speed fishing boats throttle back, either at the behest of their guests, or of their own accord, the boot's on the other foot.

You mentioned, "so technically its under power however slowly for trolling, like most sailbotes are 80% slow power boats."

That is correct! And backing down faster than 10 knots is akin to sinking. I speak as one who knows. :P :P

History teaches us that future is always closer than we think. Parsons' ship Turbinia turned up unannounced at the Navy Review for Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee at Spithead on 26 June 1897 in front of the Prince of Wales, Lords of the Admiralty and foreign dignitaries. The ship which was much faster than all other ships of the time, raced between the two lines of large ships and steamed up and down in front of the crowd and princes with impunity, while easily evading a Navy picket boat that tried to stop it, indeed almost swamping it with its wake. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbinia

In fewer that 9 years, steam turbines powered the HMS Dreadnought. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreadnought#Propulsion

Let us see what occurs in the months to come. It appears that the sun has decided abort its predicted sunspot activity and maybe ice breakers will become the new sport fishers.

http://www.usadaily.com/article.cfm?articleID=265816

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2008/02/selling-snake-oil.html

Regards,

Pericles

[juiceclark]

Pericles,
I appreciate you're last post and another great article reminding us that science has proven the religion of global warming a farce. However, congrats are in order for Mr. Albert Gore who made $140 million last year marketing snake oil to idiots. Someone needs to sell him a thirsty yacht to go with his mansion, fleet of SUVs and Gulfstream V jet.

I created this topic knowing how inexpensive it is to push a boat at 8 knots. That beautiful old boat is really for the few who like to sail and do a little fishing while passing through fertile grounds. (me) But I am convinced the most popular sportfishing boat will soon be one with auxillary power.

The boat I'm building will have a 1000hp C-18 CAT with a 100hp, 30kw generator that will turn the main shaft via hydraulics. The Isuzu genny I have in mind burns about 1 gallon per hour and, I'm hoping, will move the 24-ton boat at about 7.5k. That would be a great speed for trolling sportfish. The primary question all this brings is: Why haven't sportfishing models done this already - especially charter boats that troll all damned day??

This is old technology. Several old shrimp boats down at our dock here in Fort Myers Beach, FL have used their genny for auxillary power for a decade.

[eponodyne]

It's generally accepted by just about everyone outside the US that global warming is a reality. It's real; it's measurable; it's quantifiable, and it's no myth. The only thing that seems to be even slightly up in the air (heh heh) is what's causing it, but global warming (and it's darkling handmaid, [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_dimming]Global dimming[/urll] are very much a reality. The Nobel Committee doesn't generally suffer fools gladly, and your view of Mr Gore's personal hypocrisy vis-a-vis his own carbon footprint really has no place in a boat-design forum.

.

[Pericles]

Eponodyne,

In the UK, we are beginning to see that membership of the EU is bad news and that the whole manmade global warming conspiracy is a CoS. It's socialism writ large, but like the elephant in the room, the chattering classes ignore it. The truth will out, but not in our lifetimes. I personally think Al Gore is a smarmy, deceitful, two faced tosspot, if you must know.

I guess you do not hold that view! So what! It's just a minor difference of opinion. Just check you still have all your fingers, if you ever get to shake his hand.:P

However, this IS a site about far more interesting things and my attempt at humour, re the use of ice breakers as sports fishers slipped past you. Sorry about that!

Juiceclark,

The Hawkbill is beautiful and I hope she soon finds a caring new owner. It's a pity she is half a world away.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/photoGallery.jsp??access=Public&currency=USD&listing_id=10864&units=Feet&boat_id=1205567&back=boatDetail.jsp&boat_id=1205567

Regards,

Pericles

[buckknekkid]

Damn there goes my whole point of View!! The Dock Queen will remain on idle for another year,,, and once in a while I'll have to clear the plugs though.. god I love it,,:D :D

[brian eiland]

The boat I'm building will have a 1000hp C-18 CAT with a 100hp, 30kw generator that will turn the main shaft via hydraulics. The Isuzu genny I have in mind burns about 1 gallon per hour and, I'm hoping, will move the 24-ton boat at about 7.5k. That would be a great speed for trolling sportfish. The primary question all this brings is: Why haven't sportfishing models done this already - especially charter boats that troll all damned day??

The time to get to the fish is critical, as for the charter group , unless its a head boat these guys want cigars, booze, fish and speed.

Speed is the keyword. Have a look here, "The Need for Speed (http://www.runningtideyachts.com/archives/needforspeed.html)"

I told a potential client recently I can give him 25 knots with two 315-350hp engines. But don't ask for more if you want to remain somewhat economical and have a decent range. If you need more speed, go buy one of those many used sportfish boats that will be coming to market soon.

[brian eiland]

The time to get to the fish is critical, as for the charter group , unless its a head boat these guys want cigars, booze, fish and speed. I chartered and drove the crowd around for many years and unless youre on an island with a captive group they'll take the sporty over anything.. how can you charge for 8 hours of fishing when it takes 6 to get there???

...when you make the 6 hours getting there enjoyable

Here's a bit I included on my website in reference to this charter work;
Global Gamefisherman.
Fishing in all of its forms is the singular largest participation sport in the US. Many anglers have taken the next significant step and entered the world of offshore fishing, and then tournaments, etc. These gentlemen spend lots of money to go fishing. There's a lure to making a world record catch, or to finding that special fishing spot that's particularly prolific and/or maybe undiscovered by other anglers.
Many sportsmen might find it hard to resist at least one charter on our gamefishing boat in some remote and/or exotic location of the world, unreachable by conventional craft. Our expeditionary type vessel is designed to have that unlimited range, free from the fuel requirements that preclude most vessels from visiting those remote unexplored new fishing areas of the world. And our catamaran's shallow draft permits us to fish the deeper ocean upwellings, as well as the shallow lagoons and banks, concurrently. Then again, they may not just visit us seeking an exotic location, but rather simply another worldly location that they know they will never visit in their own boat.
In today's digital world, a camera on board linked to a satellite provides daily updates to the vessel's website. Reports on the local fishing conditions, rumored new hot spots, possible relocations of the vessel itself, connecting sea ports and air flights, can all be instantly transmitted to the potential charter client. This versatility was all but impossible in the days of print media advertising only. And with the use of a digital camera and scaling, its no longer necessary to keep the catch, but rather tag-and-release for another sportsman, another day.

Orient Express.
The idea of a charter vessel based on an Asian theme has long intrigued me, and particularly so after having spent some time visiting and working throughout SE Asia. Could we capture some of the romance, intrigue, mystery, and luxury, as was embellished in Europe's famed Orient Express.
One embodiment might combine the cultures of Thailand and Japan. Their foods are particular favorites of mine. They emulate the French in their inventiveness and presentation, while maintaining a simplicity and healthy (non-fat) quality. Both cultures make much use of seafood. Fresh sushi on a gamefishing boat, what a natural. And what if it was served up by a wonderfully gracious, geisha, sushi chef. Or an afternoon ceviche snack from fish, lobster, conch gathered by the guest on a dive guided by several Asian hostesses. We went snorkeling everyday for our ceviche ingredients while visiting Cuba. Great exercise, beautiful underwater vistas, and that hunter/gatherer feeling of accomplishment. How about an authentic Thai massage following this workout.
Our orient lady (the vessel) could make use of some decorative themes of the orient. Many of their decorations are quite lightly weighted physically, in keeping with our lightweight vessel preferences. There are many beautiful nature and sea design themes from Japan, Thailand, Bali, just to name a few.
An alternative embodiment might be more South Seas oriented. The vessel might assume the role of a mobile, floating Swiss Family Robinson tree house, wandering around the islands of the world. Her crow's nest (the watch tower), her expansive deck and trampoline areas (the beach), and any number of places to hang hammocks, certainly help qualify her.
The Asian charter client will more likely be attracted to the oriental theme'd vessel, while the American or European could be equally attracted to either. I think all the clients would be willing to pay a premium for this specialized service.
Let your imagination wander, then contact us directly for individual requirements, or questions.

http://www.runningtideyachts.com/charter/

http://www.runningtideyachts.com/archives/taraarchive.html
I wouldn't mind being here smoking a few cigars, drinking a few beers or sake, and fishing...ahhhhhh

[brian eiland]

About 150+ miles off Sanibel Island, FL is a fastastic fishing grounds. If you follow the water temperature charts, you can get into everything from swordfish to marlin, tuna, and fill-up on reef fish all the way back to shore. Not everyone wants a go-fast Viking or Bertram for this expensive trip - especially when those deep V hulls make you want to puke at slow speeds.

So, I can't help but wonder if boats like this "sportfisherman" for sale on YachtWorld are the way of the future. It's not nearly sportfisherman-like enough for my tastes but it's economy is tempting. Perhaps about 5 more feet of beam:

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/photoGallery.jsp??access=Public&currency=USD&listing_id=10864&units=Feet&boat_id=1205567&back=boatDetail.jsp&boat_id=1205567

Someone is going to hit the jackpot by putting the best qualities of an efficient trawler, comfortable cruiser, practical and tough sportfisherman together with some sailing capability....perhaps old tech or the new "ship sails". I'm not capable of such imagination, but I'll take your company public when you draw it! In case any of you rag boaters don't know, this is a sportfisherman:
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatFullDetails.jsp?boat_id=1773234&checked_boats=1773234&ybw=&units=Feet&currency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=11384&url=
Tony in Sw FL
Hey Tony,
Did you get that 'future/past' sportfisher yet? And have you rethought any of your priorities considerning the lastest fuel prices? I'm guessing we will see $200-250 per barrel by the end of the year.

I posted some other photos of Hawksbill here on my motor sailer posting:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=213166&postcount=14 (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=213166&postcount=14)

[juiceclark]

I haven't bought it (all funds are pouring into my own project) but I sure think about it once in a while. This ol' dog doesn't like new tricks...have to accept I'm a monohull guy.

With a large beam becoming popular on sportfishing boats and the limitless technology of sail, strength, balance and power I just can't help thinking the Hawksbill is a style which could sell if modernized.

My neighbor has a 46' Aventure:
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatFullDetails.jsp?boat_id=1929289&ybw=&units=Feet&currency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=59909&url=

and I just can't imagine having a big cat like that without some sort of sail. But when crossing the Gulf Stream in 10 footers that thing shuttered and complained enough to worry me. It would have been nothing on a quality sportfishing monohull. It seems there's no in-between: Either have a super wide cruising cat like your design or have a monohull powerboat. Those in the middle just don't impress. So, I as a monohull guy I keep harking back to the Hawksbill with interest.

One can fish on a sailboat or sail a motorboat...but who can take advantage of windpower cruising on a 25k sportfish? One smart, rich dude that's who.

Tony

[Bullshipper]

Large yacht sales are at an all time high. Lots of people making money world wide.

Its the smaller boater who is feeling the higher energy costs, not the 90,000 families that have $360,000,000 or more.

[longliner45]

eponodiny,,what do you mean that none of this has a place here ??that is typical liberal( everything is ok till you dissagree with me)attitude,,,,al gore sucks,,,,,,but globale warming is a farce ,,if it were true ,,why is mars getting warmer?? there has been iceages ,and heat ages ,,for millinium,,deserts dont shrink,they only get larger ,,someday this earth will be a burnt out hull ,,like mars ,science tells us that the polar caps were once tropical ,,can you explain ,,why is there seashells in my backyard?,,,now back to al gore ,,he uses and waste more power than 20 familys combind ,,yet he preaches conservation,,,,,he is one big fat piece of ****,,,,longliner

[longliner45]

its coming to sailboats ,weather they are commercial fishing boats or charter,,,we are gonna have to slow down and smell the roses,,,,,it may take more time ,,,but the same pleasure will come from it (fuel is out) facts are facts ,,we gotta face reality,,,power fishing is out ,,the new trend ,(coming full circle) is sail,,,,,,,,,,mark my words ,,longliner

[eponodyne]

eponodiny,,what do you mean that none of this has a place here ??that is typical liberal( everything is ok till you dissagree with me)attitude,,,,al gore sucks,,,,,,but globale warming is a farce ,,if it were true ,,why is mars getting warmer?? there has been iceages ,and heat ages ,,for millinium,,deserts dont shrink,they only get larger ,,someday this earth will be a burnt out hull ,,like mars ,science tells us that the polar caps were once tropical ,,can you explain ,,why is there seashells in my backyard?,,,now back to al gore ,,he uses and waste more power than 20 familys combind ,,yet he preaches conservation,,,,,he is one big fat piece of ****,,,,longlinerWhat do I mean? Disagree with me, by all means: dissent is the process; but don't just dismiss scientifically gathered and peer-reviewed evidence because you don't personally like the source.

No one disagrees that the planet's getting warmer. What's under fire is why, and the only thing that seems to be a commonality among those who believe that man has nothing to do with, it is a decidedly Fascist point of political view.

And either get a new keyboard or quit hitting the comma key so many times. Drives me nuts, and you're losing credibility.


Hawkbill is very beautiful. She'd look a lot better moored at my lake house.

[FAST FRED]

The Isuzu genny I have in mind burns about 1 gallon per hour and, I'm hoping, will move the 24-ton boat at about 7.5k.

The math for this will be hard.

A fuel burn of 1GPH is about 18hp , maybe 20 with a electronic injected turboed engine (some genset).

Hyd drive will cost about 10% or more between the pump and motor losses .

2HP per ton for a 24 ton vessel will need 48hp at the shaft , more than double what 1 GPH will produce for a SL of about .8 .

You will need about a 75 ft LWL to run .8 SL and see 7.5K thru the water.

FF

[longliner45]

eponodyne,it is always a pleasure to agree or dissagree with people who dont take it personal .(I try to stay out of politics,because I cant change them anyway)I will agree ,the world is getting warmer.why ?is the question,so many forest fires putting carbon in the atmosphere?I really dont think it is man made ,the factories of the 20,30 ,40sand 50-70s were much worse than todays,,,,,,thankyou,,,,are ya going to wrestle that boat from fred?

[FAST FRED]

"I will agree ,the world is getting warmer.

YES !!!Warmer , thank goodness

In a few hundred more years we may finally be past the "Little Ice Age", and we can get some fine wine from Vineland again.

That the Earth changes temperature constantly is written in her 4 billion year history.
That plant food ( CO-2) is the cause of the change is nonsense as the past record shows the CO-2 changes well AFTER temperature changes NOT BEFORE!

A Socalist grab for our wallets , yet again , is the only reason for this hype.

Older folks will remember the ICE AGE that the socalists claimed was "coming" in the 70's and the expected "riots" during the massive population shifts as folks fled the advancing ice sheets..

FF

[Pericles]

FF,

So sorry to pour freezing ice cold water on your hopes. Thus spake Dr. Don J. Easterbrook, Professor Emeritus Geology, Western Washington University, author of 8 books, 150 journal publications with focus on geomorphology; glacial geology; Pleistocene geochronology; environmental and engineering geology.

"Look at history, where we are in 2008, and where we’ve been. If you go back to the beginning of the century, there was a really deep cold period from about 1880 to 1910, and then it warmed until about 1945. Most of the global temperature records are set in the middle of the 1930’s when it was warmer than now. And the same is true in Greenland--the temperatures in the 1930’s were warmer than they are now. In ~1945, we did a flip to thirty years of global cooling. The time of maximum CO2 emissions started in 1945 and temperatures should have shot up, but we cooled off. That’s an anti-correlation. In 1977, we got warmer and warmer. If we look back 500 years, the trend of 1977 to 1998 is not unique to this century. For about 500 years we have 30–year periods where it gets warm/cold, warm/cold.
We’ve been warming up about a degree per century since the Little Ice Age in about 1600. We’ve been warming for 400 years, long before human–generated CO2 could have anything to do with the climate. If we project the previous century into the coming one, my projection is that we will have about a half-a-degree of cooling from 2007 (plus or minus three to five years) to about 2040. Then it will start getting warmer as we enter the next warm cycle, followed by cooling again. By the end of the century, we’ll have less than a half a degree temperature increase, instead of the ten degrees or so predicted by IPCC. A huge difference. The IPCC projection says that by 2011 we should be one-degree warmer than where we were in 2005. But, we’re getting colder. We declined about 0.7 degrees in one year. We’re going in the opposite direction. With IPCC data and their graph, by 2011, the difference between my projection and theirs is about one-degree and that’s huge. Now, they have to increase a degree in three years. If that doesn’t happen, their projection is wrong and mine is right."

See full interview. http://icecap.us/images/uploads/DonEasterbrookInterviewTranscript.pdf

Perry

[Fanie]

While you guys are sorting the better fishing conditions out, I'm with Brian on multihull fishing. Cat or tri rules. The only reason there are not more multihull fishermen is simply because the equipment and setup does not really cater for it and it is not the norm to fish from them. It is going to change soon. Going after sport fish you can trawl up and down all day every day... for free.

[Timm]

The big problem with multihulls for fishing is the height of the cockpit and coamings. To wire a billfish, you need to be able to reach over the side and grab the bill. Traditionally this meant about 3' (.9m) of freeboard was the norm. With the tunnel height pushing the cockpit sole higher to avoid slamming, this makes it really hard to get low freeboard back aft in a cat.

I think we will see some of the boats going slower as Tad suggested. It wasn't that long ago that a 30 knot SF was a fast boat. Maybe we will go back in that direction. The boats will still be fuel hogs, just not as bad. I can't see canyon runners in the NE cruising out at 8 knots, these guys just don't have that much free time. If you only have the weekend to fish, taking 15 hours of it going out 60 miles and coming back isn't going to fly.

As for the GW debate, when someone can tell me what temperature the Earth is supposed to be (within a tenth of a degree), then I'll believe them. You ever notice that all the temperature graphs show a 100 years or more along the bottom and then degrees measured in tenths on the side? Change that side scale to 100 and it will draw a straight line.

[plankton]

Hi folks,

First time post here and hope i don't put my foot in it too much - or upset too many people, but I've read all the posts here and feel the need to add some more fuel to the fire.

I've been a fisherman most of my life, both commercial and in the charter industry, and have run boats in almost all the oceans of the world. As a person who has spent many hundreds of thousands of dollars on fuel, believe me when I say it hurts to pay the fuel bill every year like some of us do. Worse still, we do so in the knowledge that we are doing the "wrong" thing too.

I became enamoured with Richard Postma's Tara Vana many years ago and always hankered to go and fish it. Whether you have an engine or not, a vessel will always raise fish for the simple fact that most apex predators are curious and will come to look at a strange object in their realm, particularly if they think it might be a whale or other large object that harbours bait. This is the essence of attraction. The capture ratio of each individual boat will then reflect how long it keeps the predator in the region and whether it triggers a bite. A vessel that creates the right "footprint" will be a good boat to fish from, and it is broadly accepted among sportfishermen that a boat with an irregular aura is less attractive than one with a smooth signature. In this respect, a motorised vessel with a deep wooden hull and a slow revving engine is held in high regard - likewise a sailing boat with no engine noise but a purposeful wake with regular hull noise and motion will also attract and hold fish.

So, the answer to whether a sailing boat will catch fish like a motorised boat is inconsequential. Indeed, to catch a fish you have to run it over, and you can do that in either type of boat. Sometimes a fish on the surface will shy away from the sound of a motor, othertimes it will not matter what boat goes where - the fish will be feeding with abandon and everyone will catch.

The arguments over hull configuration take a bit more thinking. I have owned and fished both monos and cats, and in essence my impressions today of their differences are as follows :

- if you are going from A to B and not trolling or anchoring, then a catamaran is a far superior beast in almost every respect

- if you are trolling, then a catamaran between 18 and 30 feet in length can exhibit its one vice - the head sea bang. There is no getting away from the fact that a small to medium size cat will be uncomfortable going head on into a sea at trolling speeds. Cats above these lengths can gain considerable advantage in waterline length and the height of the wingdeck above sea level, and at such sizes can become much more comfortable to fish from. Of course, hull design lends a helping hand here and there are good cats and bad cats in this size range, not all of which exhibit the other characteristics which a skipper may want from their vessel. Access to machinery for service is my main priority, and it is unfortunate that many larger catamarans do not offer this characterisitic. That's my main bug bear.

But, to get back to a motor-sailing cat..... it has been a dream of mine for several years to design and build a small trailerable boat for the weekend warriors. Something capable of getting to the grounds with a single outboard, and then fishing under sail with a computer and some servos keeping the vessel at the required speed. This will entail a sharp learning curve for most fishermen and a change in tackle and attitude. But I think it can be done, as long as they're going to accept the fact that sailing is wet work and that a rope burn or the odd bodily blow to the head or other extremity is the norm, not the exception. Indeed, it is possible that some fishermen may take to the sailing aspect so well that fishing becomes less important, and vice-versa. The main problem to be overcome in the size vessel I have in mind will be one of security in the cockpit (fishermen like their gunwales) and security overall (wind versus multi-hull). Another option might be a tri-maran with telescopic hulls like the Windrider - we'd just need to work on the deck space...:rolleyes: .

Of course, a hydro-foil boat may well offer the speeds to get to and from the grounds in certain conditions too.......

However, it's my gut instinct that a motor-sailing cat will not be the market leader in a world dominated by cash and oil. It's a lovely thought, and I'd be one to sign up for the campaign, but it won't happen. As others here have said, those with the money to buy the right boats and the fuel for them do not have the time or the inclination to wander the oceans, sipping cocktails as the shrouds creak. The Tara Vana is a boat designed to do that, and she does it in surroundings conducive to that atmosphere, with decidedly Pacific panache. I can't see it happening in the Mid Atlantic tournament out of Cape May (for example) with 200 - 300 boats leaving port at the same time, running 60 miles to the edge, and then running home again to weigh-in. Alas. It might happen in some parts of the world where wind is common and fish are close - the Cape Verdes, for example, or the Caribbean Islands or the Bahamas, and there may well be some people who will design and use a boat for the expedition fishing scene. But........

Much more common I think will be the ascendance of catamarans in general. As designs have improved and as the blinkered sportfishing world learns yearly, there are many great variations of cat design out there, and as oil prices soar I think we will see a real boom in the long thin displacement hulls so beloved by Crowther and Tennant, as are commonly seen down in the Pacific. As people start to realise the advantages these hulls give a catamaran then I think the trend for the wide-bodied planing and semi-planing hulls so common today in the US catamaran market will slow. This is the area I think we will see most improvements in, to the stage where people will buy boats that can give a distinct edge in economy while still offering competitive mid-20 knot cruise speeds. A vessel that offers all of the regular advantages of a catamaran such as stability, space and sea-worthiness and also combines that with a cruising range in excess of 600 miles at a decent speed and a fortnightly fuel fill at her fishing destination will become king.

We're almost halfway there already. If Dick Vermeulen's 47 foot craft up in Buzzards Bay (Maine) turns out the way the numbers are crunching, then we may have the first of a new breed coming down the line. Numbers ? How about 22,800 lbs of boat floating along at 21 knots for a range of 685 miles ? Or a displacement range of over 4000 miles at 8 knots ? Top speed of 24.5 knots for over 500 miles ?

What's more remarkable is that this vessel is powered with just a pair of 160hp common-rail diesels and only has a fuel capacity of 400 gallons. If I was still a charter operator I'd buy one in a heartbeat. Just think, in some places where the edge is just a mile from port, you'd fill up once a month !

My apologies for the long post. I'm not a boat designer, but I've sure fished a lot of different vessels, and although unqualified I hope you didn't get bored.:D

[juiceclark]

Tripped over this funky thing on YachtWorld...the 44' Lancer. You see so many downeast, lobster or picnic boats without a sail these days it's a surprise to see one. Moreover, this one is designed as a sportfishing boat with a big sail. Interesting how they ran the lines into the lower helm.

Cockpit is crappo...not very nice overall and there's no pic of the flybridge helm:
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatFullDetails.jsp?boat_id=1797638&checked_boats=1797638&ybw=&units=Feet&currency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=1033&url=

This one shows the hull design:
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatFullDetails.jsp?boat_id=1928037&checked_boats=1928037&ybw=&units=Feet&currency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=1768&url=

Sure is a mutt compared to the Alden Hawksbill.

[the1much]

i love sail boats,,,,,,,hate sailing,,,hate power boats,,like the ride though,,,,i think i might be able to handle a boat like that 1,,,,best of both worlds,,,,almost,,,,, hehe ;)

[juiceclark]

i love sail boats,,,,,,,hate sailing,,,hate power boats,,like the ride though,,,,i think i might be able to handle a boat like that 1,,,,best of both worlds,,,,almost,,,,, hehe ;)

=================

Jim, I agree with all that. A 30+ knot sportfish never appealed to me...18k to 23k is just fine. I've spent a lot of $ on these machines and have no urge to slam them into seas until they unravel. Oil will likely be under $100 by this winter, but the desire for a boat that can do everything will never disappear.

Tell me something...on that first boat for sale, what the hell is that in picture #5? Is that some kind of heater or something?? Here's the link again:
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatFullDetails.jsp?boat_id=1797638&checked_boats=1797638&ybw=&units=Feet&currency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=1033&url=

[plankton]

Diesel heater.

[the1much]

haha,,,, looks like a mini stove wannabe,,hehe ;)

[brian eiland]

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatFullDetails.jsp?boat_id=1797638&checked_boats=1797638&ybw=&units=Feet&currency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=1033&url=[/url]
Propane Fireplace

[brian eiland]

The big problem with multihulls for fishing is the height of the cockpit and coamings. To wire a billfish, you need to be able to reach over the side and grab the bill. Traditionally this meant about 3' (.9m) of freeboard was the norm. With the tunnel height pushing the cockpit sole higher to avoid slamming, this makes it really hard to get low freeboard back aft in a cat....
That's the reason for this 'athwartships fishing deck' (http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/53496-post46.html) that can be lowered to more traditional level as fish gets closer to vessel:
But he also desires a relatively 'one level fishing deck' across the beam of the vessel. So here is a rough sketch of a modification to the 'elevating' fishing chair deck
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/53496-post46.html

[TollyWally]

Plankton,
Excellent post, excellent. I've done a bit of fishing back in the day; I can tell you have a real hands on viewpoint. Fishing boats have always eventually evolved to fit the economic conditions. The ones that don’t can’t keep up the necessary maintenance and after an ugly slow motion death spiral are either sold into different trades or lay rotting and abandoned at the head of a bay somewhere.

Curious men who study the habits of fish will figure out a way to catch them regardless of the equipment or technology as long as there are fish to catch.

I look forward to reading more from you on this and other threads drawing upon your time in the fisheries.

[brian eiland]

...However, it's my gut instinct that a motor-sailing cat will not be the market leader in a world dominated by cash and oil. It's a lovely thought, and I'd be one to sign up for the campaign, but it won't happen. As others here have said, those with the money to buy the right boats and the fuel for them do not have the time or the inclination to wander the oceans, sipping cocktails as the shrouds creak. The Tara Vana is a boat designed to do that, and she does it in surroundings conducive to that atmosphere, with decidedly Pacific panache. I can't see it happening in the Mid Atlantic tournament out of Cape May (for example) with 200 - 300 boats leaving port at the same time, running 60 miles to the edge, and then running home again to weigh-in. Alas. It might happen in some parts of the world where wind is common and fish are close - the Cape Verdes, for example, or the Caribbean Islands or the Bahamas, and there may well be some people who will design and use a boat for the expedition fishing scene. But........

Much more common I think will be the ascendance of catamarans in general. As designs have improved and as the blinkered sportfishing world learns yearly, there are many great variations of cat design out there, and as oil prices soar I think we will see a real boom in the long thin displacement hulls so beloved by Crowther and Tennant, as are commonly seen down in the Pacific. As people start to realize the advantages these hulls give a catamaran then I think the trend for the wide-bodied planing and semi-planing hulls so common today in the US catamaran market will slow. This is the area I think we will see most improvements in, to the stage where people will buy boats that can give a distinct edge in economy while still offering competitive mid-20 knot cruise speeds. A vessel that offers all of the regular advantages of a catamaran such as stability, space and sea-worthiness and also combines that with a cruising range in excess of 600 miles at a decent speed and a fortnightly fuel fill at her fishing destination will become king...
Sure wouldn't offer the maneuverability that a twin engined cat would, but I could well imagine a fishing chair on the back deck of this tri-hull form...maybe a little smaller version of this vessel.
New Age Trawler/Motor sailer; Kite assisted PowerYacht
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20319

And how about making it a dive/snorkeling/leisure platform as well:

[plankton]

Brian,

Propane heater - I stand corrected ! Never seen a Dickerson propane heater, so that's a new one. Wonder how much gas you'd need for a long winter cruise up to Alaska and back ! :D

Your multi-hulls are extremely interesting and i think your designs are pretty much spot on. I also agree that a trimaran, though not as maneuverable as a twin-engined cat, could well do the job. Inherently, there is much to be said for three hulls as against two. However, might I suggest that large billfish (in particular) are more commonly (and preferably) handled alongside a vessel, not athwartships across the transom. Two overriding concerns by a diligent crew who release their fish are (1) to keep the fish swimming into a flow of water thus ensuring an oxygenated supply of water, and (2) to keep the fish out of the props. When a large billfish is on the leader it can characteristically surge forwards, often in sympathy with the pull of leader. If at the back of the boat, this will often lead a fish into the props, particularly if the fish is aqua-planing with pectoral fins rigidly outstretched. Might I respectfully suggest a retractable steel-rung platform, as used on board tuna pole-boats, that can be lowered outboard alongside the stern sections of the hull in the closing stages of a battle with a fish ? It could do double duty as a boarding/dive platform and tender-berth at anchor.

http://www.sandiegohistory.org/journal/91summer/images/p180b.jpg

Alternatively, below is a different take on a multi-hulled sportfisherman from New Zealand. This is a wave-piercer, so the hull is different, but you'll get an idea of how a different transom arrangement can be effective. This charter vessel is highly successful and has set several world records in both fishing and performance terms. It regularly fishes banks to the NW of New Zealand, some 450 miles offshore.

http://www.charterworld.com/images/yachts/ulstern-209.jpg

More info here : http://www.charterworld.com/index.html?sub=yacht-charter&charter=motor-yacht-ultimate-lady-372

Tollywally - thank you for your kind words. I think you'll find that this kind of vessel might, with modifications, be the best fuel-efficient fish-boat of the future ! It'll be interesting to see what the finished vessel looks like and how she performs l

http://www.mecat.com/images/power/images/p-47animate.gif

[plankton]

Brian,

I just saw your mention of a kite-assisted boat too. I have some friends in Hawaii who have been playing with them, I understand that when they solve the problem of keeping the kite at zenith for no pull when playing fish that they will then have a pretty serious contender for the coasts with wind. I'm not sure they'll work that well in the lee at Kona though !

I like kites. I've played with a kite buggy and have a PowaKite I regularly get to pull the kids along the beach. I can see the potential of it as a fishing-boat "puller" and love what the German outfit are doing with cargo ships. In the right hands I can see a large kite with controllable output eventually taking the water speed record too with a boarder below.

For fishing boats, kites also offer a variety of solutions to presenting baits - in the traditional suspension methods of the Floridian sail-fish experts, through the offshore coastal long-line users of New Zealanders and Polynesians, to the cutting edge developments of using them on the troll by some tuna-boats worldwide, but especially off the east coast if USA. There is no finer way to catch a boat-shy tuna than to troll a bait over its head to windward of a boat. A lot of giant bluefin are caught off the NE USA by people using kites now, suspending live bluefish beneath them as baits. It's a very interesting form of fishing - and it shouldn't be a hard sell selling the wind-power theory to fishermen who use kites already !

[brian eiland]

Brian,
I just saw your mention of a kite-assisted boat too. I have some friends in Hawaii who have been playing with them, I understand that when they solve the problem of keeping the kite at zenith for no pull when playing fish that they will then have a pretty serious contender for the coasts with wind. I'm not sure they'll work that well in the lee at Kona though !
Here are some guys in Hawaii playing with kite power:
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/52647-post9.html

De-powering seems to have something to do with relaxing the restraints on the kite and letting it seek a neutrality.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSWfi5AMT2E&amp

For fishing boats, kites also offer a variety of solutions to presenting baits - in the traditional suspension methods of the Floridian sail-fish experts, through the offshore coastal long-line users of New Zealanders and Polynesians, to the cutting edge developments of using them on the troll by some tuna-boats worldwide, but especially off the east coast if USA. There is no finer way to catch a boat-shy tuna than to troll a bait over its head to windward of a boat. A lot of giant bluefin are caught off the NE USA by people using kites now, suspending live bluefish beneath them as baits. It's a very interesting form of fishing - and it shouldn't be a hard sell selling the wind-power theory to fishermen who use kites already !
Very interesting

[brian eiland]

.. However, might I suggest that large billfish (in particular) are more commonly (and preferably) handled alongside a vessel, not athwartships across the transom. Two overriding concerns by a diligent crew who release their fish are (1) to keep the fish swimming into a flow of water thus ensuring an oxygenated supply of water, and (2) to keep the fish out of the props. When a large billfish is on the leader it can characteristically surge forwards, often in sympathy with the pull of leader. If at the back of the boat, this will often lead a fish into the props, particularly if the fish is aqua-planing with pectoral fins rigidly outstretched.
Planton,
I welcome all of your input as I am certainly not a big game fishing guy.

I just observed many sportfishing boats seemingly trying to keep their transoms facing the direction of pull from the single line of the guy fishing in the chair (as opposed to multiple fishing party boats), so that should the fish dart from one side to the other, he didn't end up to far out to the side/front of the vessel, nor underneath it. The vessel needed that maneuverability to back down or go forward quickly, plus turn its transom towards the fish ??

The mate needed to be able to move quickly from one side of the vessel across to the other, either behind the fishing chair, or sometimes in front of it going under the taut line. That's the reason I tried to provide for an athwartships deck that was basically all one single level, in-line with the two transoms decks when it was 'lowered'. The mate then needed only to 'slide over' the 'partition' formed by the inner hull sides at either end of the central deck section....as close as I could come to a deck space similar to what he might be accustomed to on a conventional sportfishing boat. And then segments of railing that could provide for knee bracing during the fight or gaffing


Alternatively, below is a different take on a multi-hulled sportfisherman from New Zealand. This is a wave-piercer, so the hull is different, but you'll get an idea of how a different transom arrangement can be effective. This charter vessel is highly successful and has set several world records in both fishing and performance terms. It regularly fishes banks to the NW of New Zealand, some 450 miles offshore.
I was slightly familiar with this design, and it's more along the same idea I first offered with the smaller 'aft deck pod' fishing area:
http://www.runningtideyachts.com/dynarig/Layout_and_Profile_Accommodations_Drawing.php

But I don't think that NZ design has a fishing deck down near the water, in fact quite high up? So the only area that the mate might recognize as familiar to his old fishing cockpit would be the two transom areas that involve a bit of obstacle running to get between the two, and a limited area in each to reach over and gaff the fish??

...just my observations??

BTW, I've had an occasion to speak and met briefly with Peter Wright, a very well known name in offshore sportfishing, who likes my idea of the fishing catamaran, and indicated a desire to help with the final cockpit layout once a fishing guy was 'hooked' on the project :D

[brian eiland]

...We're almost halfway there already. If Dick Vermeulen's 47 foot craft up in Buzzards Bay (Maine) turns out the way the numbers are crunching, then we may have the first of a new breed coming down the line. Numbers ? How about 22,800 lbs of boat floating along at 21 knots for a range of 685 miles ? Or a displacement range of over 4000 miles at 8 knots ? Top speed of 24.5 knots for over 500 miles ?

What's more remarkable is that this vessel is powered with just a pair of 160hp common-rail diesels and only has a fuel capacity of 400 gallons. If I was still a charter operator I'd buy one in a heartbeat. Just think, in some places where the edge is just a mile from port, you'd fill up once a month !
That is a sweet looking vessel, and he builds a really nice product. Modify the stern and you could end up with a real nice sportfishing vessel.

[the1much]

which boat???,,,man you guys confuse me,,hehe ;)



:EDIT: ,,,,what ta hell is he doing with a nice boat in maine waters?,,:D

[brian eiland]

I really like this vessel too....the MD Buzzards Bay 33 (http://www.mdcats.com/latestnews.htm).

I call it the multihull version of the infamous Bertram 31 (http://www.bertram31.com/)
http://www.boatus.com/jackhornor/power/bertram31.asp

Here are some photos I saved:

[plankton]

Hi Brian,

I nearly was there for the first Buzzards' Bay launch back in 2004 or so. I like the vessel, but disliked the outboards (not good for billfish) and stern-drives (not my preferred method of propulsion from a mechanical point of view), so if you prefer straight shaft propulsion there is very little to touch the Maine Cat for efficiency in the USA. The PDQ's come close but you'd have to really butcher the stern of the boat to turn them into charter vessels. The 34 (or 35 or 32 depending on where you have seen the vessel!) is also not what I would call a true open-ocean vessel, according to some whom have ridden on it. Yes, more than capable of holding its own in a blow but not first choice for a full-time charter boat. Which is a shame, since I would think they would be very popular if PDQ could fashion a commercial craft on the hull shape.

There are a few UK craft that are now also coming into line with these developments, but at this stage they all require large engines due to hull volume. The only real comparisons come from Peter Brady's Scimitar designs in OZ (also Voyager) and the various cats from NZ, some from the drawing board of Noah who frequents this board. I got halfway along to designing a cat with him funnily enough, but I left NZ and that particular project has died. Oh, and there's the Lagoon 43 from France of course. Not sure about the build quality but it has all the other credentials in spades to make it a blue-water charter boat.

I'll come back later with some thoughts on your other posts, have to run to the PO.

PS: Incidentally, if you're reading this Noah, do send me a PM. I lost a computer earlier this year and with it your contact details !

[the1much]

wow,,,looks nice !,,,im surprised theres no bullet holes in it,,,,we usually use those kind of boats fer target practice in maine,,hehe :D
i bet them multi's ride nice,,,,but again,,,theres all that wasted room

[brian eiland]

How about this? I've mentioned it before. Turn the engine around and get the props ou of the very stern...maybe even out to the inner side to reduce draft...maybe a forward facing model

Chain Drive...discontinued
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/15453-post14.html

Pulling Prop Belt Drive
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/7567-post9.html
About three years ago I had mentioned my interest in such a configuration to the Volvo rep at the Ft Lauderdale show. He said I should come visit them in Norfork. I never did take the time to follow up on that invitation. I suspect they have been working on this for some considerable time.

I had previously suggested this idea for both single and/or dual props, but utilizing a kevlar belt drive component rather than 90 degree shafts:
From my website,"Other than direct straight-shaft drive of propellers, most marine drives today involve some sort of 90 degree arrangement, ie.sail drives, stern outdrives, outboards, etc. The 90 degree gear set (and there are usually two sets) is the potential weak link in the system. All the power is being transferred over a very physical small contact area between two bevel gears. This contact patch can be nothing more than a thin line on the opposing two teeth! Special hardened gears and maintaining close-fit tolerances permit the horsepowers of today. But when it comes to diesel engines, the situation gets worst. The diesel is by its nature a much more torque'y beast. Gears to handle an even modest horsepower diesel are extra hard pressed. Teeth can break or get worn so quickly as to loose all tolerance."

Volvo is talking some fairly big diesel power here. I can only think that the smaller dia props (dual configuration) are a factor in making it work, but I still have trouble believing it. I wish them the best of luck in a successful product.


New Drive System, IPS from Volvo Penta
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/technical-discussion/2232-new-drive-system-volvo-penta.html#post15453

Chain Drive Duo Prop
http://www.runningtideyachts.com/dynarig/Tennant_Hull_V_ChainDrive.php

[brian eiland]

Hi folks,

First time post here and hope i don't put my foot in it too much - or upset too many people, but I've read all the posts here and feel the need to add some more fuel to the fire.

I've been a fisherman most of my life, both commercial and in the charter industry, and have run boats in almost all the oceans of the world. As a person who has spent many hundreds of thousands of dollars on fuel, believe me when I say it hurts to pay the fuel bill every year like some of us do. Worse still, we do so in the knowledge that we are doing the "wrong" thing too.

I became enamoured with Richard Postma's Tara Vana many years ago and always hankered to go and fish it. .......
That was just a small portion of the excellent & knowledgeable posting #38 above. I had forgotten about it until I happened across it again today. My thought was this belongs over on this other discussion I started on this 'Gamefihing Under Sail' subject. But when I went to place a copy over there I discovered I already had done so.

So Plankton, where did you disappear to?? This tread died after I posted the belt/chain drive stuff?

I'm also surprised no one has responded to the Plankton posting over on this other subject thread??
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/125845-post56.html
Perhaps there is less 'cross-pollination' amoung the boating forums?

[plankton]

I'm still here, Brian ! How is life treating you ? I see you reference a thread over on MarlinNut, so I guess you can say I do cross-pollinate !

[DoubleA727]

let me disclaim myself first - i am no NA, salty old fisherman, etc... im just a guy who loves boats, fishing, and anything to do with the water. any "designs" i have are all conceptual. that being said:

this is an interesting thread... i am currently trying to start up a boat company with the flagship being a 45' catamaran sportfisher. capable of high speed but also, if smaller engines used, can be very fuel efficient.

this thread has actually made me quite happy with myself, because most of the issues brought up i had thought of and worked through.

one of the best cat designs ive seen, its not a true cat i guess, its actually sort of a tri hull, very odd, but design wise its the closest ive seen to what i want to do. just think of a mix of this and Maine Cat :)

a picture was shown above, but this is the man. page for her
LOMOcean Ultimate Lady (http://lomocean.com/projects/pleasure/26.7m+-+ultimate+lady)

obviously i think this is where tournament fishing is heading (more efficient hulls). my entire marketing plan is to enter into shotgun start bill tournaments, let everyone else start and then blow by them on their way to the fishing grounds. conversely, if trying to sell to a charter service, i can run the same speed they are running, and at the end of the day show them how much money they would have spent on gas in my boat v. theirs.

the single largest hurdle i see in actually selling my boat(or any catamaran) to someone who owns a viking, Hat, etc... is that the word "catamaran." it evokes a gag reflex in most of those guys. therefore i believe the only real way to sell them is to outperform (in either speed or fuel effeciency) their slow mono hull sportfishers by so much, that they HAVE to admit the benefits of the catamaran. and if you can get some of the gung-ho tournament guys to buy one, then you're golden.

this was a great read - thanks to all who chimed in!

[brian eiland]

....For fishing boats, kites also offer a variety of solutions to presenting baits - in the traditional suspension methods of the Floridian sail-fish experts, through the offshore coastal long-line users of New Zealanders and Polynesians, to the cutting edge developments of using them on the troll by some tuna-boats worldwide, but especially off the east coast if USA.

There is no finer way to catch a boat-shy tuna than to troll a bait over its head to windward of a boat. A lot of giant bluefin are caught off the NE USA by people using kites now, suspending live bluefish beneath them as baits. It's a very interesting form of fishing - and it shouldn't be a hard sell selling the wind-power theory to fishermen who use kites already !
I was just scimming back over this subject thread and took note of this kite method of delivering bait...interesting. Thanks Plankton for your postings.

[brian eiland]

Much more common I think will be the ascendance of catamarans in general. As designs have improved and as the blinkered sportfishing world learns yearly, there are many great variations of cat design out there, and as oil prices soar I think we will see a real boom in the long thin displacement hulls so beloved by Crowther and Tennant, as are commonly seen down in the Pacific. As people start to realise the advantages these hulls give a catamaran then I think the trend for the wide-bodied planing and semi-planing hulls so common today in the US catamaran market will slow. This is the area I think we will see most improvements in, to the stage where people will buy boats that can give a distinct edge in economy while still offering competitive mid-20 knot cruise speeds. A vessel that offers all of the regular advantages of a catamaran such as stability, space and sea-worthiness and also combines that with a cruising range in excess of 600 miles at a decent speed and a fortnightly fuel fill at her fishing destination will become king.
.......

What's more remarkable is that this vessel is powered with just a pair of 160hp common-rail diesels and only has a fuel capacity of 400 gallons. If I was still a charter operator I'd buy one in a heartbeat. Just think, in some places where the edge is just a mile from port, you'd fill up once a month !
Plankton, what do you think of this idea I've suggested recently to a couple of fellows?..... Take one of Tennant's most recent powercat designs (Domino 20 meter) and convert it into a motorsailer. Of course we might also add a fishing capability as well ;)

Just a roughed in rendition

[viking north]

Interesting fishing method, kites dragging bait. Just curious what condition are the tuna stocks in your neck of the woods. Here in the east coast of Canada they are very strickly controlled and sports fishing is catch and release. Huge tuna being caught in the sports fishery here these past few years.

[whitepointer23]

Interesting fishing method, kites dragging bait. Just curious what condition are the tuna stocks in your neck of the woods. Here in the east coast of Canada they are very strickly controlled and sports fishing is catch and release. Huge tuna being caught in the sports fishery here these past few years.

here on the victorian coast of australia the southern bluefin tuna are getting larger and more prolific every year. 10 yrs ago a 10 kg was a large bluefin now they are getting them to 150 kg. it is fantastic to see such great results from fishery management strategies. the tuna in the pic was caught in may off apollo bay.

[plankton]

Interesting, Brian. I like the look of it, though to me it seems like a lot of sail ! Will you have computerization on board for trimming and reefing ? And how do you plan to implement the fishing bit ? Duckboards over the swim platform ? (just kidding !). Would love to see some more detailed renditions.....what is in her for power ?

You will need to make sure the helmsman can see the cockpit during fishing - maybe a secondary helm and set of electric throttles aft somewhere ?

[brian eiland]

here on the victorian coast of australia the southern bluefin tuna are getting larger and more prolific every year. 10 yrs ago a 10 kg was a large bluefin now they are getting them to 150 kg. it is fantastic to see such great results from fishery management strategies. the tuna in the pic was caught in may off apollo bay.
I had heard of this great success in management strategies. CONGRADULATIONS :!:

I just remembered posting this "Good News"
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/open-discussion/our-oceans-under-attack-27446-11.html#post324306

[brian eiland]

Interesting, Brian. I like the look of it, though to me it seems like a lot of sail ! Will you have computerization on board for trimming and reefing ?
You will need a fair amount of sail to move this relatively big boat to an acceptable speed in moderate winds. If you don't have this capability, then the sailing mode won't get utilized enough....or maybe not at all. That would be a waste. In bigger winds you can then reduce sail, by simply rolling some up.

No need for any fancy computer controls, maybe just benchmark of a few wind speeds and what max amount of sail you want to have out in those conditions. Sailing is not as difficult as many believe. Sure you continue to learn ever more nuances over time, but the basics are pretty easy to master....and best done by seat of the pants, hands on feel...not computers.

Now that kite-assisted sailing...different animal, flying that kite in figure-8's...that needs computer controls.

And how do you plan to implement the fishing bit ? Duckboards over the swim platform ? (just kidding !). Would love to see some more detailed renditions ?.....You will need to make sure the helmsman can see the cockpit during fishing - maybe a secondary helm and set of electric throttles aft somewhere ?[/.
No more details at the moment...just the basic idea that this excellent power-cat design can be turned into a real nice motorsailer with great range and economy. Someone might what to put a fishing set-up in the rear. That can be engineered.

.....what is in her for power
Looks like 2x300hp.

Look what the owner has to say:
"And we love our big bad powercat who can cross the Atlantic at 20 knots, the Pacific at 12 knots or go half-way around the world at 8 knots. Call her a luxury Winnabago!"

"Yes,Capt.J, the Lagoon can do this, but does she really qualify as a "passagemaker"" What is the Lagoon's 43 range? Can she cross the Atlantic at 20 knots? DOMINO burns 1.2 gpm at 20 knots, BTW. He he, never tried trolling at 20 knots, but very successful with Wahoo at 11 knots!"

...more discussion HERE (http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/general-yachting-discussion/16781-expenses-cruising-budget-examples.html)

[plankton]

Now that was an interesting read, thank you, Brian. Those people have a pretty good idea of what they want and how to go about it. The Lagoon 43, though a nice boat, is not even in the same division. It is probably capable of crossing oceans, but ti wouldn't be my first choice. I'd happily take it from Europe to the Canaries, for example, but not horizontally across the pond !

I'm actually in the process of starting some plans for a round North Atlantic trip in 2014/15 with the family. I had provisionally planed to begin looking either a displacement craft like a Nordhaven/Krogen or a catamaran. But a catamaran with a sail plan sounds even better.

I'm not buying one - either borrow or steal. Grin.