Build yourself a boat and do a lap, crazy or not?

[deepsix]

http://www.esquire.com/cm/esquire/images/xJ/trimaran-3-010408.jpg

http://www.esquire.com/cm/esquire/images/DM/trimaran-4-010408.jpg

This has been around for a while so apologies if I missed the thread. The guy is taking a beating on the other forums, but there are a few design and build yourself types around here so i though I'd see what you think.

Quick summary

Guy builds 50ft aluminium trimaran with the aim of sailing around the world. Everybody thinks he is crazy and tells him its a bad idea.
Naval Architect bails because the plan is too extreme.
And heres the crazy part, He wants to build in a couple of months
He has a rather tight budget of $25000.

Im usually one to condemn these nutters that try crazy plans, but I think this guy is in with a fair chance for three reasons. He has built a large boat before, he is an experienced sailor and the boat is designed by a reputable naval architect.

The southern ocean is a scary patch of ocean where you cant cut corners, some of the more extreme elements of his plan could easily kill him. What do you think, does he have a death wish or will he make it?

Here are the links
http://www.esquire.com/the-side/blog/tincan - Blog of Build Progress
http://www.esquire.com/features/sailing1207 - I do not have a death wish - Article detailing his plans

[PAR]

Anyone attempting a rush job on such an undertaking is asking to die or at least wishing for it. These are things that are detailed out to the last degree, for obvious reasons.

If the NA bailed, there is clearly more going on then the builder is suggesting, has anyone word of what he thinks and why he found it necessary to toss his commission in the drink?

Frankly, without hearing both sides and the limited bit I have about the builder, he's a nut case and is looking for "suicide by southern ocean" (as the ME will put it) if you ask me. This issue apparently runs in the family.

[safewalrus]

Best of luck to the guy, get the wreaths ready! The thing that scares me is the poor bloody seamen / women that will put their lives at risk to rescue the b******. If that's what he wants get on with it - just somebody confiscate any form of communiction so he can't put others at risk!!

(I thought you wern't allowed to ditch rubbish at sea anymore?)

[PAR]

I don't have a problem with others going out and dragging his soggy butt back to shore. They live for it, get paid for it and want to do it, so who's to bitch about that. I do think they should be required to purchase a bond, so that some of the costs associated with these types of "no braining themselves into a hole" kind of things can be partly paid for, up front. Possibly with a sliding scale on responsibility, more on the initial bond, based on the level of risk the adventure's insurance company suggest they'll be exposed to.

[longliner45]

tramerans and cats really arent for going around the world ,,sure you can ,,if the conditions are right ,,but so can the guy that went from cali to hawwai in a jon boat,,this guy is figgan nuts,,,longliner

[safewalrus]

I don't have a problem with others going out and dragging his soggy butt back to shore. They live for it, get paid for it and want to do it, so who's to bitch about that. I do think they should be required to purchase a bond, so that some of the costs associated with these types of "no braining themselves into a hole" kind of things can be partly paid for, up front. Possibly with a sliding scale on responsibility, more on the initial bond, based on the level of risk the adventure's insurance company suggest they'll be exposed to.

Mught do in your country PAR but in mine it's all volunteers, and anyway they have wifes, husbands, children, parents and friends - "OOH he just died rescuing some fool, but he was paid for it" 'That's OK then!' I thought better of you PAR. And what about the other seamen who have to divert from their journeys and put their lives at risk, or is that OK too because they are only profesional seamen and don't count? Remember your yachtsman puts his butt on the line to help others too!

[masalai]

How can this type of endeavour not cost - how about a "do not rescue or help" declaration. Perhaps the government of the initial country of departure put out an "ADVISORY" and that would obligate every following country he/she/they landed/visited/passed through issue a similar declaration

The respective idiots then have their moments of fame & no obligation of any to rescue. EPIRB and other long range communications facilities prohibited.

Then they would know where they stand before departure - at their own risk....

[longliner45]

same goes for all those who leave thier boats at the dock ,,when a hurricane ,,,is approaching ,,only to be paid off by the insurance co,,,if you know a storm is coming ,,move your boat,,so I dont have to pay high primiums,,to cover thier stuipid asses,,,longliner

[PAR]

It isn't a privlage to be rescued, it is the obligation of every seaman, every person that has the ability, is in the general area and can be of some assistance. I expect this when I put out, in fact rely on it. Why shouldn't everyone, even if they are bone headed? Are all boneheads to sign a waver so we "normal" folk can feel more comfortable when we reply to a May Day?

I have answered and responded to several distress calls over the years, in a few occasions was the unfortunate yachts only hope. Should I have checked a current list of idiots, speculating they can do more then they can with their lives first. It would be a hell of a thing if you where making the May Day call and drowned, because the rescue nearest you hesitated because it was running through the seemly endless pages of newly added names to the buttheads list, to see it your call was on the roster.

Hell no, we can't declare anyone at sea less eligible for rescue for any reason. It just serves to force change to take a back seat to complacency and adventure a distant second to a Club Med cruise.

I was an EMT after the army and I just wanted to help. It turned out for me, that type of helping wasn't for me, but how dare anyone place limitations or qualifications on anyone else's ideas, dreams or plans, regardless of the hair brained nature they might appear.

Yep, it sucks when a loved one has harm come. It's no less palatable when it comes in the attempt to service a fellow in need, but having lost friends in just such an endeavor, an easier burden, knowing what they were attempting and the noble nature it was. I can think of nothing more honorable, then offering your life, so that others may benefit. I should be so lucky as to provide this for someone someday. Which is much preferred over having a greeting card for the grim reaper resting in my lap as I await his arrival, withering away in a rocking chair, useless.

[longliner45]

my piont paul ,,why should I offer my life and my crews life ,,to cover some dumbass who dont make provisions,,and yes I will be there for them when they call,,, and continue to pay high priemiums,,,,,,,,,because thats the way I am ,,,longliner

[masalai]

I hope I was not misinterpreted, All I was suggesting, that, if someone desired to try self-murder, is there not a way to avoid forcing caring people to risk their lives unnecessarily, because the fool was only seeking death (or glory).?

Hell, it is such a difficult thing, to put in words, & not create a 1000 times more issues.... I was involved as a volunteer in sea rescue, moved away, and on returning and becoming a "grumpy old bastard" - disinclined to participate in delivering fuel to or towing some idiot in (for free!!!!) because he cannot think, plan or maintain his boat...

Possibly I need more red wine in my daily intake? to mellow out somewhat....

[PAR]

The basic problem is how or who will create the "list" or "rules" that govern who is declared incompliant is some fashion. If this was the case, Slocum wouldn't have been able to take is worn down old sloop around the world, he'd have been branded a fool, worth no effort to save. With this train of thought I guess we should let those Cubans and Haitians die at sea in their obviously not ocean capable craft, rather then pick their soggy asses out of the drink.

Why? We're all people and those who are in danger or suffering, self imposed or not, don't deserve the fate that awaits, even if they are the dumbest on the planet. It is human nature to preserve life, not let it drown. Making an effort and acts of this type of unselfishness are the hallmarks of being human. It not a flaw, it's the very virtue that separates us from the animals, which when faced with similar situations will let one of their own young drown, rather the face the wrath of mother nature themselves. Survival of the fittest is fine for them, but we've grown well beyond that need, which unfortunately also means the genetic propensity to no brain ourselves into a big holes is much higher amongst humans then animals.

We have no choice but to protect fools and heroes alike, in their endeavors at sea. It's a universally accepted law and one that needs to remain. The moment we attempt to change this, regardless of the initial intent, we diminish our abilities as people to picture ourselves in a similar situation, with a similar hope of rescue.

It's never necessary to risk your life, it's a choice, always made willingly by those involved. We can't tell what people are thinking. We can impose some minimum requirements for ocean going craft, but this is another can of worms. If someone is hell bent on a spectacular death then I'll be happy to film it and send it into America's Funniest Videos, but we have a choice to not endanger ourselves and crews. In fact it is the requirement of the skipper to do just this, even if involved in a rescue. You are required to make a "reasonable attempt", but not to endanger your vessel or crew. If you do, then you as skipper are responsible, possibly negligent in some regard. In other words if you, during a rescue attempt, slip and crack your head open, then die. It's not the fault of the may day caller, it's yours for not taking better care.

[safewalrus]

that's the PAR I thought I knew and respected! Your absolutly right it is the unwritten law of the sea that if somebody is in distress you must go tho their aid (even nations at war once they have destroyed the war fighting capabilities of the opposition then attempt to save the sailors, normally).

Having said the above their should be some way to prevent the unwary and unwise from putting others at risk! I do not advocate preventing people from making risky trips - it's just that they should in the first instance look at the risk and act accordingly -and if they won't they should either be prevented or helped, not only for the sake of others but themselves as well.

Look at another way - most of you drive cars I'm sure (I don't)! Would you go out without a license and no knowledge of how to drive - I haven't a clue but I'll have a go, up the down lane of some busy interstate highway, bloody great trucks rusing past and at you. Stop get out and go for a stroll? Of course you wouldn't the police would rightly drop on you like a ton of bricks, before you got somebody killed...........I can hear you all now "but that's different" the hell it is lack of knowledge would cause a lot of deaths, whats the difference?

[PAR]

Okay Safe, how do you decide who is qualified and what is acceptable? A political decision? Of course, that's what will happen and we all know what happens when a bunch of profession liars get together and make a law that we have to live with.

There isn't licensing in most parts of the world because there aren't that many boats in the big picture of things. On a highway, you'll run into another car pretty quickly, without some training, but a boat, possibly not in a life time of fumbling around in your yacht. What happens if the person is licensed and still takes a fools journey and requires rescue? Do you save him because "he got proper papers" (sounds a lot like Germany in the 1930's don't it) and shoot the ones that don't?

No one for any reason should be held back, though it would seem at quick glance that a few should. Upon further examination those that seem foolhardy may indeed be on the verge of a break though or revelation. Who are we to stifle this? Yes, it a sin that some have to suffer at the expensive of boneheads, but this has always been the case.

If you could come up with a fair butthead qualifier or vessel exam that effectively weeded out the fools, we be eternally grateful.

The basic problem still exists. We can't predict the future.

[safewalrus]

PAR, I get your point, but if each country ensures that any of its citizens that go afloat have a rudimentary knowledge (driving test) it's a start! So on rescue we ask the country / rescuee are you qualified? is your boat capable of doing the trip? The professional will of course say yes (?) and no doubt will be able to furnish proof! or his country will. If he says what? or has no proof then send a bill for his rescue (the cost only, no profit) to his embassy! His country will then pay for his shortcomings - up to them how THEY recover their money!!

The seaman, as now, will carry on doing the right thing and carrying out his obligations (most would anyway, no matter the consequences)

[Fanie]

Gutsy move and gutsy setup. I've read the article, I know the emotions and I can sympathise with him. His biggest fear should be freezing to death if he doesn't heat insulate his living space aboard, the rest would be ok if strong enough, although I have my suspicions about being as fast as he claims it is going to be.

Too many people too scared to try something else other than the standard set by and created by others, scared of a novice's success . Or for the negative cryteria, jealousy.

I hope he makes it.

[Roly]

If too many wanted to do this kind of thing, it could turn into a problem. What the hell. He has sailed oceans,just hope he tests it well before embarking and that it doesn't prematurely fatigue itself to death. Life is short anyway, go for it I say. His run is too late tho for the SO.

[Fanie]

Personally I wouldn't have built it in allu, but with fiberglass and polyethylene foam instead. There are however lots of boats around made of allu which actually floats. I'm not a metal boat fan, but it's ok with me if someone else is.

[deepsix]

Theres an update on the blog.

He is planning to launch on friday, test sail on saturday, and leave on sunday, with the possibility of stopping in San Diego of there are problems.

Why do I get the feeling he is not giving the ocean the respect it deserves. Good luck David, this will certainly be a testing adventure.

http://www.esquire.com/the-side/blog/tincan

[nordvindcrew]

here in the US, the coast guard will deny permission to sail. Several loonies in bathtub sized boats trying to do a trans Atlantic crossing have been turned around and escorted to shore. In our rowing races, the harbor-master or the Coasties have final say if we go or not, and we comply. If some one in the race has problems we are BOUND to stop and render aid; pass by the problem and you are disqualified. A universal tradition continues on, but with a little lessening of the problem if but a few fools can be dis-suaded from absolute folly on their part.

[longliner45]

mark my words ,,a coastguard boat will be in his future,longliner

[Kay9]

Dosnt even look like that hull would make a good raft once it comes apart in the Southern ocean.

What kind of experiance dose this guy have sailing. I read the blog and it only said he was familer with San Diego and San Francisco. Please tell me this guy has at least sailed something, anything, to at least Hawaii.

K9

[Manie B]

I sincerely wish you well and really hope you make it but the design is questionable.:( I have got a bad feeling about the big X (with stiffeners) that holds the side pontoons to the centre main hull. :?: This project could be done but needs more outside help and less personal preferences.:idea: Always wear a life jacket.:confused: :confused: :confused:

[charmc]

I suspect this is a debate that will still be raging a thousand years from now.

Paul, you have stated the argument in favor of the standard of honor we all try to measure up to about as well as I've ever seen it expressed. There is no question that most of us will, when we are able, put ourselves at some risk to rescue whoever is in need, whether they are overcome by dire circumstance or by their own stupidity and short-sightedness. Why do we do it? As longliner put it quite well, "Because that's the way I am".

I would not want to live in a world in which some remote legislative body composed of professional politicians decided whether I could go to sea in my own boat or not. That's the core of the problem: we all know that some ventures are conceived by delusional idiots with no understanding of the challenges facing them. How do we distinguish between a complete idiot and someone who wants to push the envelope, knowing that that increases the risk, but convinced that he/she has analyzed the dangers and made the risk acceptable? How do we define acceptable?

EMT's and emergency room workers risk catching AIDS daily as they work to save the lives of drug addicts and gang members who will neither pay for nor appreciate the risks run by those who work to save their lives. My taxes and insurance costs skyrocket as society pays the huge financial costs to save their lives, often multiple times. But no one suggests seriously that we refuse to try to save them, even from themselves.

[charmc]

I have my doubts about the design, mainly about the crossbeam connections on the amas and center hull. If failure occurs, I believe that is where it will begin. That's from observing the photos; it appears to me that the construction is not exactly as depicted in the sketches. I could be wrong, though; obviously only an NA, professional builder, or surveyor would know for sure.

I read everything he has written, however. Unless he's a complete liar, David Vann has sailed the equivalent of 1 1/2 times around the earth offshore. His equipment is minimal, but there are backups for key elements. After the first NA quit, he agreed to modify the design when the second NA also insisted on changes. That demonstrates a degree of flexibility and willingness to accept input. The trip will be very high risk, but he has made an attempt to recognize the dangers and prepare within self-imposed constraints.

It's not the worst voyage preparation.

[Kay9]

Thats good to hear. I wish him luck. Hehas obivously spent enough time out to know that it can get hairy fast, and what real fear can be like on the ocean. He should have some heavy weather skills with that experiance level. That makes me feel better.

I think he should be allowed to do his trip provided he has the proper equipment, and a working knowledge of seamanship. Which it sounds as though he might. After that, its really up to the ocean as to weather he makes it or not. If the Ocean can take a 600' tanker to task then you really cant design or build yourself out of troubble. It will allways come down to your knowledge of seamanship, and your understanding of your own limitations. Ignore either at your own peril.

Any fool can raise a sail. It takes a Sailor to know when to take one down.

K9

[PAR]

The nice thing about mother nature, is it predictably sorts out the ones that shouldn't be permitted to breed, by always having gravity pull in the same general direction and producing storm induced loads that haphazardly constructed craft can't endure. I hope he fairs well, though I don't think he'll complete his lap without major repair or reinforcement. With some luck, he'll hang on long enough to get plucked from the wet.

[safewalrus]

"Luck fortunes the brave"; er, "against fools the devil himself labours unsuccessful"; er, "death is natures way of saying you've failed" and so on! Best of luck buddy -in that you'll need it, but yet you may make it - I sincereley hope you do - for everybodies sake (except maybe those who wish to emulate you!)

[Fanie]

He's going to make it. And why not. You all seem to forget that most of your forefathers came to your land of birth in much poorer wooden boats. All they had was guts to take them aboard and the hope of a future away from people making rules for everyone else. Pity more people does not have the guts.

Not sure why everyone is ranting and raving about the guy's effort. Seems to me whenever someone attempts to do something out of other people's boxes they want to push him right back in. Keep every one in line, right.

If this is something he wants to do then let him. He seems adult enough to make decisions for himself good grief, it's not like he takes a school bus with kids with him... eh !

Did the penny drop yet ?

[Kay9]

Well the part about our forfathers you seem to be missing is all the guys that tired for eons before them, and that became fish food, before the first "succesfull" voyage made it.

Also some of the reasons people of knowledge worrie about these "stunts" is because more then likely when it gets bad the "stunter", becomes a lot less reliant on his own "abilities", then he seems when standing on the shore potificating about his "explorer spirit". Then true mariners in rugged craft have to go out and risk thier lives to save the "stunter". When you have organizations like the Royal Lifeboat, and USCG that have mottos like "You have to go out but you dont have to come back". We, as mariners get a bit protective of them, towards people, or "stunters" if you will, that needlessly indanger thier lives.

K9

[safewalrus]

Totally agree Kay9 - all these 'clever' buggers leave it to the professionals to pull them out of the 5h1t when it all goes wrong - but never listen to them before it does and get help to prevent it going wrong!!

It's amazing the number of 'professionals' that get killed saving the numpties from themselves, AND THAT SADDENS ME - I know, I once was a professional and have lost some good friends due to the actions of fools (I'm not saying we wouldn't do it again if lives were in peril of course we fcuking would! But we'd rather not if possible - we have wives and loved ones too, don't our children deserve to know their fathers??

[Fanie]

Many people die daily for much less than the chance of feeling freedom and a sense of purpose... yet no one prevents anyone else from driving in a car just to name one aspect. Seems to me you can save more people's lives by just preventing trafic.

You noticed the cars some people drive in ? When the sh2t hits the fan then someone else also has to help the driver out. Maybe it's acceptable because it happens 20x a day, but no one is going to walk. Rather die than walk.

[Kay9]

I have never seen the road swell up to a 45' hill and descend on the tow truck driver after a car crash.....have you?

[Fanie]

No, but I have seen truck and busses descending on cars and even taxi's on motorbikes.

My best friend was killed in a bike accident by another driver. Point is, Kay, I would never have thought of telling him, not to drive home that night thus taking the little freedom of choice we have left. We all have different abilities. One person can do something with aparent ease, for someone else it is impossible, yet we are all judged the same. Sucks eh ! Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you can't do.

[Kay9]

Im not intrested in telling you, you cant drive. But I am intrested in telling you that you cant drive a car made out of cardboard fueled by nitro glycern with no windows to look out of and 1 forward gear that propells it at 100mph with no steering wheel.

[PAR]

K9 has a fair point, though I disagree that we discourage attempts like this because it's outside the box, etc.

I discourage these things, because of the ramifications it brings others, when ill advised attempts at fame or other adventure, costs all of us additional regulation and big brother scrutiny.

Taking your vessel and crew into harms way in an effort to save a butthead isn't my concern, mostly because the burden is on the rescuer, not the victim. If additional harm comes, as a result of a rescue attempt, the rescuer is usually at fault, not the rescue victim.

We as designers and builders have enough hoops to jump through, for the satisfaction of several governing bodies.

If lots of folks started madly jumping off roof tops in 2008, you can rest assured in 2009 they'd have some new element added to building codes, requiring a fence, of specific minimum dimensions and material types on every new roof built, with a grandfather clause to handle the sale of previously built but not yet upgraded roofs. All to keep future potential buttheads, safe and sound.

In the end, I'm a solid and firm believer in personal freedoms, with the ability to use common sense when necessary, to not endanger myself or others. We as a free people, must assume the same of others, for the moment we stop and require curtailing, even just a small amount of these freedoms, we as a people are considerable diminished, because once the dam is breached, the flow if very difficult to stop and ever so small bits of other freedoms will be garnished, until we are forced to toss off the bonds of yet another unreasonable government.

So in the end, we try our best to dissuade possible future victims, but let them learn in their own fashion. If they survive, they can pass the word of their accomplishments and write about how foolish they were in their autobiography. If they don't, their unique genetic combination has removed from the gene pool.

[Fanie]

Cars and boats are made, or can be made of the same materials. Not sure how a cardboard made car fits in this rediculous argument with nitro glycern with no windows to look out of and 1 forward gear that propells it at 100mph with no steering wheel.

If lots of folks started madly jumping off roof tops in 2008, you can rest assured in 2009 they'd have some new element added to building codes - which is the typical thinking I'm sure since some sh3thead can make a lot of money off'n it, but wouldn't it be a solution to find the reason why the people are jumping off the roof tops and treat that ?

We as free people ? You can't even put a boat to water without everyone jumping on you with every reason under the sun why you cannot do it. That to me is not freedom !

Instead, why doesn't everyone - with all the expert skills and abilities here, help the guy via e-mail or whatever means and advise him on some points that may be problematic. That way he has a better chance of making it and you have actually attempted to make a positive contribution. Should take about the same amount of effort than critisizing eh !

[Kay9]

Im sorry you dont get it. Your analogy was about cars.

Not specific to this guy, but in a lot of cases people have tried crossing the oceans in everything from bathtubs, to rowboats, to rubber rafts. Some of the ventures are well funded with a chase boat for rescue, most are not. At present the west coast CG of the US is spending $25,000.00 daily to try to find the latest stunter, from Japan that tried to cross the North Pacific in a hot air ballon in the winter. Now Im paying for this in more then just cash. So Im going to have a say in your stunt via my government. If you want to stunt across the oceans in your homemade al. tube boat, go right ahead. But when or if it falls apart, DO NOT GET ON THE RADIO and beg for me to come get you.

K9

[Fanie]

Im sorry you dont get it.

You want this to become personal for some reason ?

If it wasn't for 'to try to find the latest stunter' some people would not have a job or the service would not exist.

[Kay9]

No Im not trying to be personal. It is not meant as an attack only an answer as to why Im useing a cardboard car as an analogy.

And by you, I mean people in general. Do not take my post as a personal attack it certainly was not ment that way.

K9

[charmc]

This is a serious subject, and it obviously stirs passions. Nothing said so far was personal, just evidence of strong feelings. That's understandable. I have a nephew who was a resue swimmer. If he died trying to rescue some idiot in a poorly conceived and executed excuse for a boat, I would be proud that he died living up to the highest standards of honor. But I would be deeply angered that the whole thing should never have happened.

I'm not eloquent enough to find the exact words to express it, but there is a profound difference between rescuing someone who took reasonably recognized precautions and gained experience before trying to push the envelope, and rescuing someone who refused to or was too ignorant to recognize the need for reasonable standards of preparation.

Sometime last year there was an attempt at an Atlantic crossing by someone rowing, I think, a very small boat. Less than 10 miles into the journey, he was on the radio screaming for a tow back to shore. He said he had no idea ocean swells were so big. He had never been offshore in his life.

There is a difference. I don't want the government to be the arbiter, though. That would morph into a huge confiscation of freedom. Of the two alternatives, I'll take the one that allows idiots to do stupid things, and pray none of the brave ones who go out are killed trying to help the pathetic ones.

[PAR]

Fanie, I'm not sure how it works in your country, but in the US you can drop a boat in the water and go without much effort. Of course you are required to have certain devices, such as PFD's, horns, proper registration, etc. but little else. Where after you can elicit any adventure you dare.

Some people don't want advise or accept expert opinion. Clearly the original NA's bailing out of the project and the difficulties with the next NA are indications of the inabilities of this particular person's willingness to respect experienced reason.

This individual has ignored requests of family, friends, loved ones and experts. He has received lots of email and other correspondence in regard to potential problems, but there's only two conclusions you can draw. He is unable to comply or is unwilling to comply. The boat is complete and his plans are in place so plainly he is able to comply. You can't force anyone to think what they aren't willing to accept. This is the fundamental element of freedom, the right to choose.

I'm more then qualified to criticize his behavior, his project, plans and experience on all levels (over 30 years of experience and many tens of thousands of sea miles). More frankly, I can express whatever I well feel like, usually backing it up with considerably more then emotionally based dribble about how we must save everyone from themselves.

I've been involved in several rescues and would happily do it again. I haven't a choice in this regard. If I'm close enough to assist, I must. This isn't an option at the discretion of the skipper, unless other circumstances dictate different ship's priorities. The first decision I make once on station is to access what, if anything I can do, that will not endanger my vessel or crew. This is the primary duty of the rescue skipper in this type of situation. The ship and crew come first, then any assistance if possible.

Again, we can't jump to conclusions when a may day is hailed. We have no choice but to respond and sort out the details afterwards. If it was the other way around, no one would get rescued. It would be the same thing as being involved in a car accident with injuries and not being taken to the hospital, because you where the driver at fault in the crash.

[Fanie]

ROWING ! yeah right. Te-he... they should have left him there for a while at least :D

I've read the article of David Vann's progress. It seems he has been to sea a couple of times and has been involved with some boating stuff, so he seems to have a little experience.

I've read of much larger boats that didn't make it around the second bend, and there was dinghy's that made it. So I guess it could go either way.

Being an optimist, I hope he makes it so Kay9 won't have to fetch him :D

[Fanie]

I'm not sure how it works in your country
IMHO there are few things in SA that works. WRT boating TBH, I doubt anyone on the moment really knows ! Some new regulations and skipper licence requirements was recently implemented also for inland waters. We were sincerely hoping it was going to be a decent implementation that would benefit the boaters since a lot of accidents happens here and jet-ski's are a huge irritation. I have sent an e-mail to the organization that is supposedly managing the courses etc since there is a problem with the required kill switch operation of power boats, especially at sea. No reply, and a recent phone call confirmed - some suzi m'twe-twe who doesn't speak English, Afrikaans or her own language has inherited the phone rights. So it currently seems this is just another service-less money making scheme yet again.

[Roly]

Man will never stop defying the odds, fortunately.
Our dwindling resources will see to that.
As for CG and SAR, nobody's pointing a gun at their head to do that job.
Bet half of them get off on it, truth be known.

I have not read this guys blog.Not sure what he is trying to prove, apart from slating his minimalist voyaging thirst. Junkyard voyaging?
Good luck fella!

[Kay9]

Roly they truely do get off on it. There is a reason that most Coxswains in the CG are under 25. Too young to realize that really bad things can happen. Fortunately they get some of the best training in the world to do thier job.

For the record. Im not against this particular fellow doing this. According to his blog he says he has some seagoing experiance. Enough, at least, to have some idea what he is getting into.

Being the holder of a US Merchant Marine Document, I probably have a diffrent take on governments role in our maritime world. However I have seen a lot of it as positive. The Jones act, in the US stopped shipping companies from basically inslaving mariners in thier employ and still has teeth to this day. The SOLAS ( Safty Of Life At Sea) act, was a direct result of the Titanic not having enough life boats on board. Collision Regulations, (COLREGs) Took what was many diffrent bouy color and marking schemes worldwide and gave us what we use today. Red right returning to port. The Government has played a very signifgant role in makeing boating safer then driving your car.

K9

[PAR]

Man, I remember when COLREGs didn't exist and it was confusing. Interestingly enough the old timers of the day, got around just fine and I learned to do so as well. We learned our local waterways, but this was no help to vessels, particularly of limited maneuverability and/or draft that didn't know the area. For the most part, in this country the intrusion has been minimal.

Common sense stuff has helped, such as maximum loading and power labeling for recreational craft, PFD requirements, fire suppression, signaling devices, etc. I still am surprised there isn't an anchor requirement for recreational craft and the "alternate power" requirement is pretty weak. A 36" paddle on a 23' offshore raised helm, cuddy cabin is ridiculous, but passes a USCG safety inspection.

Also, the same mandates that forced the automotive industry to build much better products, which incidentally produced more reliable products, is now tolling on the recreational marine industry, making these much more reliable. I'm old enough to remember what "outboard" really used to mean. In the old days it meant you were out, on board your board, trying to get the damn thing to start. This was such a common problem with outboards, that most serious boaters had two, a main engine and a small kicker, which was often used to bring the unwilling to start main engine, back to shore, so it could be worked on. I restored a unique little hardtop cruiser a few years ago. It was all original, about one of the most original boats I've ever seen. It was built in 1962 and still carried it's sequentially numbered Lark 30's on her transom. The boat wasn't really big enough to warrant twins, but in that era, twins were pretty much mandatory.

These regulations involve common sense and product safety, which are usually steps forward.

Licensing drivers carries a different argument and I can see both sides. On one, it suggests the driver has absorbed enough information to prove their abilities at the helm and in understanding the rules of the road. This may be necessary in the near future as most aren't especially familiar with boats anymore, so training can address this. In my youth, everyone had a boat (I was raised on an island), we all knew how to operate them and quite expertly too, even my mother, which came as a big surprise to me when I was 6 and decided I would take the family cruiser out for a spin (I was a precious kid). This was my first recollection of a serious butt whipping too.

On the other hand, licensing also suggests people can't operate boats safely, without some underpaid, over worked, likely not especially skilled, county employee instructor telling them they've passed a course, which was designed and approved by a committee of lawyers, politicians, marketing exec's and possibly a boating expert or two.

I do see merit in requiring proof of the completion of a Power Squadron Small Boat Handling Course, if you've purchased a new boat or gotten a ticket on the water. I don't currently see the funds available to pay for uniform state licensing, nor an infrastructure capable of handling the volume. DMV could do it and certainly is geared for just such, but most are maxed or close to it now.

In the end, I'd like to see merit systems, no licensing or required courses, unless you show a need or personally desire it. This permits folks to use their common sense and natural willingness to learn and keeps big brother out of our personal lives. I've personally forced folks to take a small boat handling course and am proud of it. It was usually following a stupid incident, like trying to launch their new boat without a clue about the transom plug. I calm them down, after yanking their under powered rig up the ramp, and use a soft toned riot act routine on them about the hidden dangers of venturing farther from shore then you (or your wife) can swim back to. They guys usually "lock up" much like scolding your kids, but you work the wife, with a well placed and worded horror story and she beats him to death about it, until he goes down to the Power Squadron.

[safewalrus]

PAR your pretty old ain't you? can remember when Colregs (collision regulations to some) didn't exist! Whew! Deep respect (if true) I do however find your joint statements (true in two different posts) to the respect that if a rescuer gets hurt it's his fault and that it is the obligation at sea of every seafarer on hear a distress to go to the aid of the victim!

If you proceed, as required, in heavy weather there's a good chance you will get hurt in some way in effecting the rescue! OK you assess the risk, but bottom line if there's somebody in trouble the normal human action is to try to help - even at risk to yourself! Or do you get there and just standby to watch the poor sod die?? bit ghoulish ain't it?

Surely it would be better to ensure that the intended victim is capable of looking after himself before he goes (OK there are variables, and chances that it may go wrong, but as all accidents are caused by human failings is it not better to ensure that every precaution is taken first - you do that and there can be no objection to your going, you don't and there is!

[PAR]

I've been in that exact situation, arrive at the capsized yacht, beginning rescue operations when conditions broke down enough to discontinue and power to windward to protect the ship and crew. Yep, it's a bit ghoulish, but you have to respect the lives of your crew and keep the boat under you or no one is getting back to shore. The boat was lost and some crew did have to tread water for some hours, until conditions eased a bit and more aggressive measures could begin again. Their life raft was useless in those conditions, our attempts to offer something else just sent it down wind past them. We just had to hope, pray and stand to, until we had better options. We kept them in our leeward slick, tossed as much floatation as they could hold onto and tried everything we could, warps, drifting down with the hopes of a snatch and grab (an idea I was dead set against at the time, but relented from the pressure). Faced with fouling a single screw boat or lying off, losing crew of my own in futile attempts, I eventually made the call.

As for the COLREG's, they've always been around, but in my youth, not in the standardized form they are today. Markings varied wildly, depending on where you were, etc. The old timers seemed to understand the older marking methods, but it was difficult to learn without being under someone's wing.

[Kay9]

Safe. in the US inland markings didnt come fully under Colregs untill 1972, or there abouts.

It was VERY confusing. GREEN BLACK GREEN Mid channel markers on the rivers.

K9

[safewalrus]

'ah! Cheers Kay9, you got some big stretches of inland water over there which kinda surprises me - over here we hit the bank kinda soon (inland) so it don't matter to much!!

PAR your wrong, they haven been around for ever! Pre the "Halifax" explosion there wasn't any which is why the Halifax explosion happened (I'll let you go look for it, it was some few weeks ago - 19canteen or thereabout! Ammunition ship ran into somebody else - helluva bang, bodies and stuff everywhere up to quite a distance) and Collregs were invented!

[PAR]

Safe, I meant in my time. I do know of the Halifax, quite a mess. I even saw a Discovery Channel documentary about it once.

[safewalrus]

Man, I remember when COLREGs didn't exist and it was confusing. Interestingly enough the old timers of the day, got around just




MMMMMmmmmmmmm! Sorry PAR sometimes I do have difficulty reading plain English! That's the trouble with being English, nobody believes you can read or understand the language!!


The way some people (who should know better?) treat it maybe they are right!!

[PAR]

I apparently had a similar difficulty the other night. At least this is how it was explained by the "one that must be obeyed" . . .

[safewalrus]

Then you must tell me the name of your drink! ;)

[PAR]

I'm a beer guy and life would be much easier if she drank as well.

[safewalrus]

Wouldn't it just mate, wouldn't it just!!

Even better if they all did - occasionally!

[PAR]

Safe, that could be a double edged sword come two in the morning when we start looking good to them . . .

[safewalrus]

Yeah guess your right there PAR, could be extremely nasty, lucily I'm a bigger pisshead than her - at the moment, so feeling no pain is the order of the day! Thank Heaven!

[deepsix]

This thread has been well and truly killed, but if anybody is still interested the "boat" has been launched and pictures are on the wooden boat forum.

Thread on the Woodenboat Forum (http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=73818)
Pics of it floating (http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showpost.php?p=1761739&postcount=97)
More pics (http://flickr.com/photos/mmm_beer/tags/tincan/)

The beam attachments look ..........interesting.

[charmc]

This thread has been well and truly killed, but if anybody is still interested the "boat" has been launched and pictures are on the wooden boat forum.

The beam attachments look ..........interesting.

Deepsix,

Killed? Naaa, just sidetracked, killing time because nothing was happening . Thanks for the update on the launch.

I share your concern about the beam attachments. I said early in the thread that it's my belief that the beam attachments are the weak spots. If it fails, those points will be the location, I believe.

Having said that, the man has offshore sailing experience, and the boat appears somewhat sturdy, so I say good luck to him. I hope it works.

[Fanie]

I wonder why his first wooden boat sunk.

[safewalrus]

Beam attachements???? could be Fanie;)

[Fanie]

I saw that. Think TWO washers would have been better :rolleyes:

For someone so handy with materials he really could have made some decent connections there I agree. If the rest of it was done in similar fashion I withdrew my opinion that he's going to make it. Fifty-ith wave that bolt's going to come off, he's going to be just far out enough to be in deep sh4t. Maybe he's going to take a sack full of them with...

[Kay9]

I just finished reading this guys book. He reminds me of that Grizzly man, that was on discovery recently, Timmothy Tredwell.
This guy is so up on his "beliefs" that he just cant seem to see past his own idea's.

He even admits in his own book that he is probably the worst sailor he has ever met or is likly to ever meet. His true Oceangoing experiance is very limited and during that brief time he LOST his vessel.

I really think this is the worst of all ideas. An unproven design. An amature build. No shakedown. A skipper in way over his head, and depending on his electronics to keep him alive.

K9

[charmc]

I wonder why his first wooden boat sunk.

It sank because a rudder attachment failure that nearly caused a sinking on a previous voyage happened again, meaning the underlying problem was not addressed after the first failure. That doesn't bode well. He says the yard that built his boat swindled him and built the boat way below spec while charging for cost overruns. The story makes him seem like a nice guy with little expertise; could be a receipe for another disaster. Here's his website: http://www.davidvann.com/photo_album.html

[Fanie]

nice guy with little expertise
Not a good combo for building and circumnavigation. At least one must have a feel for mechanical strengths or get that feel really quick.

[charmc]

The sea is a harsh mistress ...

[safewalrus]

Not all is lost he will at least keep the sharks fed and happy!

(and look at the entertainment he's given us!)

[deepsix]

Update

The Tin Can has been launched. See the comments on Latitude 38 (http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/lectronicday.lasso?date=2008-02-13&dayid=72#Story2) forum and the impressions from Lia Diton (http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe/2008/dream%20on.htm).

http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/img_lectronic_480/2008-02-13_7113_TinCan-80.jpg

The boat was launched and she is not floating on her lines, causing an escape hatch to be submerged.
Another Minor Problem (http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe/2008/van%20Underwater%20survival%20hatch.jpg)

Also some guy on the SA forum has ratted him out to the coast guard, I wonder if he will be able to leave at all. Here is the post.

"Ok, I know it was wrong but I couldn’t help myself. I called CG Group 11 headquarters and asked them if they had inspected Vann’s boat and, if so, who did the inspection and what did they find. You know, out of public interest and safety for the boating community at large. To my surprise they were completely unaware of David Vann and his little nightmare. I filled them in on some of the important details – lunatic, “manifestly unsafe”, family history of mental illness, large hunks of sharp aluminum, hatches under water, etc. – and they really thought it was pretty amusing. The lady I was talking to was actually laughing out loud (not at me, at Vann. I think). Needless to say our buddy David is going to be having some visitors today or early tomorrow. Any bets on whether they let him go or not?

I've done my part."

[Manie B]

Well well well, what can i say, this guy has amused me no end here in South Africa (which is barking mad at present) I have read all the eloquent statements made by expert writers and boy-o-boy if you are to dumb to get expert advice when needed - god bless you - and as previously mentioned "The sea is a harsh mistress"

Still sanding my box.

[TeddyDiver]

Also some guy on the SA forum has ratted him out to the coast guard
Hate rats! allthough it's sometimes amusing to feed them.. poison:D

[Kay9]

Good for them, and by them, I mean the guy that ratted this idiot out. The only bad thing about ratting him out is they probably saved this idiots life and next year he will be trying to fly to the moon in a plastic bottle useing cold fusion for fuel.

K9

[TeddyDiver]

The only bad thing about ratting him out is they probably saved this idiots life and next year he will be trying to fly to the moon in a plastic bottle useing cold fusion for fuel.

K9

Builded up even cheaper than the one byrocrates are now starting to process by the order of the law to be eventually comissioned...

[Fanie]

Now that I saw that thing afloat - he's not going to make it anywhere ! The waves are just going to rince over the boat all the time, filling everything with water :o

Clearly this guy never did any weight / flotation calculations :eek: Maybe they don't have freeship in that part of the world. I think my little trimaran has a better chance of making the trip !

[TeddyDiver]

The waves are just going to rince over the boat all the time,
Maybe it's one of those wave piercing things:P

[Fanie]

Blimey Ted you're right. Remembering the discussion on those they tend to make everyone sea sick, and it's true. I feel sick just looking at that thing on the water :D If that thing is going to go out I can assure you it is going to be a very very unpleasant experience.

[TeddyDiver]

And giving a whole new meaning for the consept of flush deck:rolleyes:

[Kay9]

Heres the article:
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe/2008/dream%20on.htm

K9

[TeddyDiver]

Thanks K9. This boat can be compared only to famous film "Plan 9 from the outer space" or, on the other hand, climbing up the San Juan Hill with Teddy..
Teddy

[Kay9]

I was thinking more of Custer and a last stand.

[safewalrus]

They do say there's one born every minute! Looks like this guy had a whole hour to himself!! Frightening!!

[deepsix]

Photo (http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=63233)
Photo 2 (http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=63234)
Photo 3 (http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=63235)
Photo 4 (http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=63238)

It seems that the Tin Can has escaped the clutches of the Coast Guard and left. Someone on SA posted that the Coast Guard checked him out and gave him the go ahead, but there is no way to verify this.

[Kay9]

Deepsix I dont want to join another forum and I cant see those pictures. Any chance you can download them and repost here?

Thanks..

K9

[Kay9]

Here is an official reiew of his (David Mann's) book.

Disastrous Career At Sea Leads (of course) To Shipwreck (Sailing Magazine review of "One Mile Down" - link)

I'e witnessed a few shipwrecks. They were painful to watch, but not nearly as excruciating as reading A Mile Down.

The title foreshadows the book's ending, not that any reader with an ounce of common sense or knowledge of boats needs that help. It is obvious from the first chapter that the author, heedless of the warnings flashing all around him, is bound for disaster. Reading his story is an experience akin to observing a vessel sailing inexorably toward a deadly but prominent reef. You know something awful is going to happen, but like watching a grisly accident develop, you can't avert your eyes. David Vann, a teacher of creative writing, writes a fluid, coherent narrative, so you keep turning the pages, watching with macabre fascination as the descent to ruin unfolds.

Credit Vann and his publisher with truth in packaging. The subtitle, “The True Story of a Disastrous Career at Sea," is spot on, at least the “disastrous" part.
Vann, 30 years old, is vacationing in Turkey when he's shown an unfinished 90-foot long, 20-foot high welded steel sailboat hull. He decides he has to have it. No matter that he's already mortgaged to his teeth on a 48-foot sailboat. “I wanted to free myself from the working world and have to time to write," he explains. 'Grendel (his 48-foot boat) could never free me, but this boat could."

Freedom will come by having the boat finished and putting it into service as a floating university classroom for people who want to take courses taught by Vann and guest lecturers while sailing in exotic locales. Fees will be substantial. Vann calculates he will net $300,000 with only 20 weeks of work.

The hull was made by Turkish welders of uncertain skills. There is no mention of a designer. Finishing is to be handled by Seref, the fellow who introduced the author to the boat. His chief qualification as a shipbuilding contractor is that he is president of the Chamber of Commerce of the Turkish city of Bodrum. He promises to recruit only the best local welders, carpenters, electricians and laborers for the project. By now you know where this going. That's right, a mile down.

The boat gets finished, more or less, but the litany of failures that follows is as long as it is predictable: engines corrupted by siphoning sea water, paint falling off the hull, poorly caulked decks leaking, corrosion festering beneath the cheap material used to finish the interior, a hydraulic steering ram failing, the rudder falling off, the hull cracking.

The last two fall in the catastrophic category. Losing steerage leads Vann to abandon the boat off Casablanca in favor of a life raft. He and his crew are rescued by a Moroccan Coast Guard helicopter. The boat is rescued by salvagers, the crew of a German freighter that muffed (suspiciously, Vann thinks) an attempt to tow the boat. Vann eventually gets the boat back, a process requiring large expenditures of cash and aggravation. Through its telling readers may be tempted to pull for salvagers, if only to forestall further disasters.

Among those is the ultimate disaster --sinking, the result of hull failure that, given the shoddiness of so much about the boat, should not have come as a shock. The author assures us nonetheless that the hull was built of top-quality steel and passed an inspection. “I hadn't really counted on cracks in the hull," he writes.

It seems he loves his 100-ton ketch. I can relate to that. He wouldn't be the first sailor to fall so hard for the sailboat of his dreams that he loses the ability to think clearly. Vann is a smart guy (we know because he tells us so in the book, pointing out that he was high school valedictorian and a prodigious winner of awards at Stanford University) who holds a 200-ton U.S. Coast Guard master's license and has sailed more than 40,000 miles, and should be an appealing character. We'd like to root for him in his quest to sail his boat away from the shackles of the working world to a free life of seafaring and writing. But readers are likely to find that the more he tells of his story, the more they want to hold their applause.

Vann is loath to take responsibility for his problems, which besides the aforementioned low points, include repeated hassles with customs officials, bankruptcy and threatened charges of criminal fraud. He distributes blame far and wide to, in no particular order: the freighter captain who he thinks tricked him into abandoning his boat; the Moroccan Coast Guard for sending a helicopter to rescue him instead of a towboat; venal customs agents; an obtuse California deputy attorney general who insists on prosecuting him for refusing to refund charterers' payments; an employee who didn't pay bills properly; a boss who didn't meet his expectations during a temporary stint in the dreaded working life; draconian credit card bill collectors and the U.S. Coast Guard.
Readers sympathetic to his plight may want to abandon ship themselves when they get to the part where he ridicules the seamanship of the Coast Guardsmen called out in foul conditions to get him and his benighted boat out of yet another scrape.

Vann may not come across as very likable in the book, but he must be irresistible in person, with charm and charisma to burn. He persuades friends, mainly folks who took his educational charters, to loan him hundreds of thousands of dollars to finance his folly. He confides that his story "became a kind of spiel as I learned that these people --sometimes without my even asking-- were willing to loan me money." One couple gives him $250,000. His mother pitches in with $60,000, In all, he raises $600,000 in private loans. Most of his lenders are stiffed when he declares bankruptcy. “Bankruptcy law is very generous to the debtor," he notes.

This is one of the few books that actually generates sympathy for credit card companies. Vann treats credit cards as gift cards, the idea of paying for the purchases for which they're used apparently a foreign concept. He maxes out four American Express cards to the tune of almost six figures, then seems surprised to have to report “They wanted everything paid in full."  As the book ends, he notes he “racked up more than $60,000 on my wife's credit cards, which would probably force her into bankruptcy."

Well, it could have been worse for her. Obviously a brave and adventuresome woman, she is at her husband's side when the boat sinks near the Virgin Islands. They watch it disappear from a dinghy. Vann writes, “There was an odd sense of relief." For readers too, no doubt.

The relief, alas, is short lived. On the final page, Vann reveals he's building another boat, a 90-foot aluminum catamaran. The disastrous career at sea continues

[Kay9]

Here are some future costs we can add for this idiot based on the other idiot in a ballon we just finished searching for:
http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/315762.html

The cost per hour for flying a C-130 is $4,381. I get this info from here :
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/03/destination_bag.html

We searched for this stupid ballonist for 2 weeks, thats 14 days lets figure they only searched during daylight and days are short up north right now so lets say 6 hours a day X 4,381= 26,286 a day x 14 days=$368,004 USD for this stupid ballonist to try his stunt.

So when you "Freedom" guys spout off about these idiots wanting to try these idiotic stunts, with the arguement of , they are only hurting themselves, just remember that on April 15th when you send in your income tax return.

Or better yet, when the CG tells you that from now on they are going to start charging people for thier rescue, be sure to remember the courageous David Mann and his sailing dreams.

K9

[safewalrus]

He survived!!!! I hate to say it, but what a pity, for all concerned (including himself, sounds like he has a death wish!)

[deepsix]

Kay9

I agree with you, this stunt should not have been allowed to tale place, I have posted comments like "escape the coastguards clutches" while playing the devils advocate in order to stimulate conversation.

Ultimately it is the saftey concious boating public that feel the concequences of excessive regulations, imposed after stunts like these. The interesting thing is that the boat was boarded and inspected by the coast guard who aparently reported no saftey violations. There are photos of the Coasties doing their inspection on Sailing Anarchy from Peter Lyons, I have included. The implications of a clean inspection this may not be good if he does need a rescue, but it is unfair to expect the Coast Guard to conduct a thourough survey.

The following photographs were taken by Peter Lyons of Lyons Imaging (http://www.lyonsimaging.com/) on the day that he left. They include the coast guard inspection.

http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/20080214_144741_5802_lyonsimaging.jpg
Reproduced with permission from Peter Lyons 2008 - Lyons Imaging (http://www.lyonsimaging.com/)
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/20080214_153531_5886_lyonsimaging.jpg
Reproduced with permission from Peter Lyons 2008 - Lyons Imaging (http://www.lyonsimaging.com/)
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/20080214_153927_5917_lyonsimaging.jpg
Reproduced with permission from Peter Lyons 2008 - Lyons Imaging (http://www.lyonsimaging.com/)
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/20080214_161715_6947_lyonsimaging.jpg
Reproduced with permission from Peter Lyons 2008 - Lyons Imaging (http://www.lyonsimaging.com/)
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/20080214_161718_6951_lyonsimaging.jpg
Reproduced with permission from Peter Lyons 2008 - Lyons Imaging (http://www.lyonsimaging.com/)
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/20080214_142601_5746_lyonsimaging.jpg
Reproduced with permission from Peter Lyons 2008 - Lyons Imaging (http://www.lyonsimaging.com/)
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/20080214_161613_5987_lyonsimaging.jpg
Reproduced with permission from Peter Lyons 2008 - Lyons Imaging (http://www.lyonsimaging.com/)
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/20080214_141414_5688_lyonsimaging.jpg
Reproduced with permission from Peter Lyons 2008 - Lyons Imaging (http://www.lyonsimaging.com/)
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/20080214_134725_5651_lyonsimaging.jpg

More pictures to come from Eric Simonson as soon as they are approved by the moderator

[Kay9]

Heres the intresting thing about a CG 4100 form inspection. There is no convention made for the actuall construction of your vessel. Only the equipment onboard the vessel and the material condition of your hull.

In other words. If you have lights/horn/life jacket/throwable/anchor, and your not taking on water......You pass.

CG Boarding officer are not qualified to judge the workmanship of the vessel itself, and as such unless its obivious your sinking, lost, or unlikely to float, there really isnt much they can do.

This is NOT the same inspection, or CG inspectors that are used to evaluate commercial craft.

K9

[Kay9]

Thank you Deepsix. And let Mr Lyons know that I thank him also. I can see by the picture of the ?cockpit? that he has a real problem keeping his lines out of the water. Thats not going to bode well to his running rigging in about 3 week.

I also noticed that he did not get rid of the bolts in his cross frames but elected instead to ?tack weld? the fames and keep the bolts.

Sigh

K9

[safewalrus]

To be fair (as Kay9 states) like all officials the coastguard are working to a set of rules, no doubt under heavy stress, and not only must they follow those rules (no matter how stupid they may seem to the guys doing the job - you can bet your bottom dollar that they knew it was a heap of poo, but could do nothing about it!) they MUST ALSO BE SEEN TO BE FAIR and playing the game. Pity the poor skipper of that Coast Cuard cutter who knows he has a 'crock of 5h1t' and knows that whatever happens his head is on the chopping block, but because of the 'rules' he can do nothing! Not an enviable position to be in!!!

[masalai]

This is a case, In my humble opinion, where it would be valid to get the "adventurer" to sign a release which states clearly "DO NOT SEARCH FOR ME, DO NOT HELP ME" and becomes a legal document which has international impact as soon as it is published in "notices" & internet.... Any country of departure should be able to issue this as a condition of clearance, else the offending vessel is towed back and destroyed at "owners expense"

That way the rest of the responsible cruising/sailing fraternity do not end up paying for the stupidity of the few idiots with a death wish...

does that make sense?

[Manie B]

Masalai you are correct with your release form:cool: . If the ******* wants to commit suicide let him AT HIS OWN EXPENSE:mad: .

One thing that i have to give him credit for is his ability to attract attention and publicity for his books / writings:D .
Hope he secured advance payments for his equally well qualified wife / widow.

Imagine she could retire to Hollywood and go live next to OJ Simpson, then they can both write sad stories - get rich - and sit next to Britney (no panties:D ) in night clubs! Only in America!

Confession
I am also some kind of an idiot - I love this story and have read everything i could on it.

Watch out now for the next flood of copy cats that will crawl out of the woodwork:D

[Manie B]

Please keep the photos coming they are excellent entertainment:D :D :D

[deepsix]

Brace yourself here comes the scary stuff. Most of these photos are taken by Erik Simonson 2008 of H2oshots (http://www.h2oshots.com/).

http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/tincan32CRweb.jpg
Photo is reproduced with permission from Erik Simonson 2008 - www.h2oshots.com
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/tincan20CRweb.jpg
Photo is reproduced with permission from Erik Simonson 2008 - www.h2oshots.com
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/van_Underwater_survival_hatch.jpg
Unknown Photographer
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/vann_Cross-beam_attachment.jpg
Photo from Lia Ditton from Dream On, (http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe/2008/dream%20on.htm) on Sailing Anarchy
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/train_wreck.jpg
Unknown Photographer
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/tincan66CRweb.jpg
Photo is reproduced with permission from Erik Simonson 2008 - www.h2oshots.com
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/tincan44CRweb.jpg
Photo is reproduced with permission from Erik Simonson 2008 - www.h2oshots.com
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/tincan29CRweb.jpg
Photo is reproduced with permission from Erik Simonson 2008 - www.h2oshots.com
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/tincan30CRweb.jpg
Photo is reproduced with permission from Erik Simonson 2008 - www.h2oshots.com
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/tincan26CRweb.jpg
Photo is reproduced with permission from Erik Simonson 2008 - www.h2oshots.com
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/tincan05CRweb.jpg
Photo is reproduced with permission from Erik Simonson 2008 - www.h2oshots.com
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/tincandepart118CRweb.jpg
Photo is reproduced with permission from Erik Simonson 2008 - www.h2oshots.com
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/tincandepart99CRweb.jpg

I would like to thank Erik and Peter, they went out and took these photos for our entertainment at their expense.

[Kay9]

Deepsix please let Erik and Peter know that we thank them as well. I have some friends in LA and SD working for vessel assist. They are going to try to intercept and get some more photos......if he makes it that far.

K9

[TeddyDiver]

This is a case, In my humble opinion, where it would be valid to get the "adventurer" to sign a release which states clearly "DO NOT SEARCH FOR ME, DO NOT HELP ME" and becomes a legal document which has international impact as soon as it is published in "notices" & internet.... Any country of departure should be able to issue this as a condition of clearance, else the offending vessel is towed back and destroyed at "owners expense"
The biggest concern is what happens if the dude actually does the lap succesfully?
The second biggest concern I have comes with the inevitable occasion of shipwrecking. Not this particular tin can, but other vessels having collisions with this potential "ghost wreck". I'm afraid this thing won't sink, instead it will stay mostly submerged only three sharp bows pointing up:!:

[deepsix]

Deepsix please let Erik and Peter know that we thank them as well. I have some friends in LA and SD working for vessel assist. They are going to try to intercept and get some more photos......if he makes it that far.

K9

I have thanked them and sent a link to the thread, so im sure they will have a peek. Try get us those pictures when he comes past.

[Kay9]

The word is out down the CA coast. BoatsUS and Vessel Assist issued an alert about him this morning.

K9

[longliner45]

looks like a hatch acually ,,underwater,,,the only thing between him and a sinking is a piece of lexan or plastic,,someone please stop him ,,,longliner

[Kay9]

Yes its his "escape" hatch.........But hey he is an "adventurer" and we should allow him his dreams, and not stop his IDIOTIC actions.

Sorry I was reading some of the posts at sailing anarchy.

*shakes head*

K9

[longliner45]

the man has the adventurer spirit,,,I would like to help him,if he wants it,he aparently has some skills,,,,,but needs to smoth out the rough ends,,,longliner

[Kay9]

He is tied up in Santa Cruz now:
http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=67651

[Kay9]

Ok I just talked to the Captain of the Santa Cruz Vessel Assist. David Mann called them last nite to come out 30 miles and tow him in because he was seeing failures in his welds and bolts, and he was hearing "scary" noises.

They didnt get any pictures.

I was also told by Vessel Assist Santa Cruz, that he is cancelling his plans for this year, he is going to try to get his boat back to San Fran, and rebuild it.

K9

[Manie B]

longliner sorry to disapoint you - the man has only one skill - to get silly people like myself to read ALL about this unbelievably STUPID adventure? The guy is a *****. BUT we need this kind of sadistic entertainment because its beter than the current flood of reality shows on DSTV. I actually hope the idiot makes money from this nonsence.

[Fanie]

Told ya - 50th wave :D I think he's just tired of bailing water...

I doubt if he's going to stop. He wins the sypathy of people who gives him money for it. He also has something to prove and cannot give up. If nothing else he gets a lot of attention. People will buy his next book too...

[Kay9]

More to be found at the SA forums, but this was the only one I saw that showed the actual problems.

K9

[Kay9]

He has been towed out of Santa Cruz and is on his way back up the coast 80 miles to San Francisco.

K9

[safewalrus]

a small question? who did his welding? the ships cat? or a blind man on 'speed'?

[Kay9]

I think thats not so much a weld as it is steel fatigue causing the 2 parts to fuse together a bit.

[Fanie]

Kay9's right. Allu welding doesn't like flexing. Almost any other kind of joint there would have worked better than bringing the four pipe ends together like that.

[Roly]

He obviously doesn't have much experience with Al, or doesn't value his life.
Those weld junctions and the X frames transfering all the load back to a small area on the main hull. The moment of the amas to a point with minimal gussets. It looks like a shipwrecked mariners attempt at getting home.
I hate being negative,but I wouldn't sleep..
I don't think it will even reach the SO.

[charmc]

next year he will be trying to fly to the moon in a plastic bottle useing cold fusion for fuel. K9

Damn!! I thought I was the only one planning that. :mad: :D

[charmc]

Back to a serious vein ... the sacriest photos are of that Lexan hatch: A. designed to be so close to the waterline, and B. the boat's being so far off design marks that the hatch is submerged.

The other telling sight is of the after half of the vessel, with lines a mess and half of them dragging in the water. I've seen photos of exhausted amateur sailors completing long solo voyages whose vessels looked like that, but very few who were that disorganized at the beginning of the voyage.

The quotes from the review of his book hint a bit more at this guy's character. Possibly not such a nice guy after all. He seems, from his own words, to be more of a passive-aggressive manipulator. His first venture was financed with hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans (his word) from friends and relatives, and he was surprised and disapointed that they expected the loans to be paid back; he was appalled when American Express expected to be paid; he criticized the seamanship of the Coast Guard he called to come out and rescue him.

Yup. I take back my "nice guy" evaluation. This guy refuses to take responsibility for his own actions. He'll be asking for help again, guaranteed.

[Kay9]

Can you image the look on an owners face if you designed and built him a boat, and on launching day the waterline was a foot and a half lower then predicted!!

Stilll wating for an update on his trip back to San Fran. No word yet.

K9

[safewalrus]

I love that hatch!! Just can't wait for the day the boat leans over and he opens it for ventilation (he WILL you know it!!), then back on even keel!! Te he that'll be fun!!!..............who'll he blame? won't be HIS fault of course!;)

[charmc]

I love that hatch!! Just can't wait for the day the boat leans over and he opens it for ventilation (he WILL you know it!!), then back on even keel!!

Safie,

Thanks for the best laugh of the day (even after reading all of Fanie's)!

[Kay9]

David was looking up the definition of "Escape hatch" and the wind blew his book to "scuttle hatch" page.

[Fanie]

next year he will be trying to fly to the moon in a plastic bottle useing cold fusion for fuel. K9
Damn!! I thought I was the only one planning that.
Charlie, which software are you using ?

[Kay9]

Vaporware 10.2????

[charmc]

Paintbrush 5.02

[masalai]

Gray matters
He who cares
Looked after,
not forward
He did it his way
He He He.
Does not rhyme
Welding broke
F'ing stupid
trying again

[Kay9]

Looks like he made it back in about 10am this morning to San Francisco

K9

[masalai]

The story continues!!!

[oldsailor7]

tramerans and cats really arent for going around the world.

Tell that to Francis Joyon. :cool:

[masalai]

But the one developed on this thread had ABSOLUTELY NO HOPE......

[oldsailor7]

But the one developed on this thread had ABSOLUTELY NO HOPE......

As the Cowardly Lion said in The Wizard of Oz---"You can say that again".:D

[masalai]

Yes:D

[renegade0sailor]

[IMG] I think this guy is in with a fair chance for three reasons. He has built a large boat before, he is an experienced sailor and the boat is designed by a reputable naval architect.


Read "An Ocean to Cross: Daring the Atlantic, Claiming a New Life" by Liz Fordred and Susie Blackmun.

A pair of paraplegics that knew nothing about sailing, built a boat that was a proven design. Then sailed it from South Africa to Florida.

Sit in your armchairs and naysay while other's go out and do!

[masalai]

Geeees, this idiot does NOT need encouragement, read the full thread please and study the pics, bloody fool and dammm dangerous.....

[safewalrus]

Ain't most small boat sailors tho Mas - that's what makes em what they are!! Hell for 'crazy' read 'individual' read 'ecentric' all depends who you are and how much money you got really - you do the same things, just different price levels!

[masalai]

Read his exploits - he ain't anyway near "most" unless the most are those locked away in padded cells & wearing those funny jackets.....

[Knut Sand]

Hmmm, I've only touched this thread partially earlier.... Now I've made up my meaning......

First:
There's no reason why it shouldn't work with 3 boxy shaped hulls......

But;
Welding must take ino the fact that fatigue is a factor to consider, badly shaped welds must be excessively strong to take that. Saw a lot of strange welds on the pictures. (http://flickr.com/photos/mmm_beer/tags/tincan/)

Alu, doesn't like fatigue too much, so the stress has to be spread out, doesn't seem to have been in the designers mind here, that issue...

Escape hatch in the water...hey, its a BOX, with (a lot of) beams, how difficult can it be to calculate weight displacement??? Probably the main hull should been a bit wider/ deeper.

The X-shaped frame, all stress in one/ few areas, the bolting of these to the hull... The washer, on one of the pictures.... The vertical beam holding the upper/ lower arm at a distance, not added diagonally strength in the beams, arms. Man..... ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truss And Scroll down to "Cremona diagram").

Why not do an estimate of the stress....

When this hits a wave in 15+ knots, the stress to the side of the bolts will be formidable, the bolts are of stainless steel the holes are Alu... guess what will hold... to redrill and replace bolts in high seas, make it quite possible that he'll without any big fuzz get off with cheaper manicure next time...:rolleyes:

If i understand it correctly; he's done a stunt just a little different like this before, which is probably why he settle for a low budget boat, that's still no excuse to not consider stress/ weight/ shape/ rescue issues more seriously.( http://www.amazon.com/review/product/1560257105/ref=cm_rdphist_3?%5Fencoding=UTF8&filterBy=addThreeStar )

He'll need some luck, or a better kind of medication.

PS, I have not seen any pictures of the repair/ changes, so there is a possibility that there's serious improvement to this project that I've not come across yet.

Or not....:D

[Manie B]

Damn

I nearly got excited

thought he's at it again

but oh no

This tread is still DEAD

DOES ANYBODY really know what has happened to "TIN CAN" in the mean time

Just a suggestion
if you want to debate these kind of boats

Start a New Thread

Dont hijack "Tin Can" :D :D :D

[renegade0sailor]

First, I want to appologize for not reading the entire thread before going off half cocked meself.
That said; I don't think that there is anything wrong with an experienced sailor having a boat built, rebuilding a boat, or refitting a boat to "do a lap".
Rushing any job and doing it on too small a budget is: what appears to me, to have been the problem... and I don't know enough to say wether it was a design flaw, or a construction error that caused this guys problems. My hat is still off to him for trying something new.
Again, my appologies for not reading all the way through before diving to my conclusions.

[Manie B]

hi

and I don't know enough to say wether it was a design flaw, or a construction error

no problem- keep on reading BD.net and then you will understand that Tin Can is a

JOKE

[masalai]

What experience? - tried a similar "stunt" once before and was exceeeeeedingly lucky......

[safewalrus]

There aqre some as have all the experience in the world and still cain't do it!

I mean I've sung in all sorts of places and cared the **** out of people - the difference is I know I can't sing and admit it (cept when I'm drunk but then its legal cos I don't know what I is doing) he can't sail but will not admit it!

On a more seious note I can't drive either, but by this nutters standard that don't prevent me from entering in a Formula One motor race!

Right next Sunday at Brands Hatch then?

[masalai]

Pissed?

[safewalrus]

Of course -do you think I'd get into a motor vehicle sober? especially the 'aimers' seat? Be suggesting you can fire an artillery piece next I suppose?

[Knut Sand]

dis tred is gong to wattevver. so I kan klirly rekommmend a 3 litres or whotttevver found bak in mi kar tudai:

"La buvette" Cabernet Sauvuvuv somting...... 3 lrts will do fin.....

bouena notte or somthin... all off yuo...


(OK Sean gets away with it, sort of...):D

PS I DIDN't GET THE JOKE!.......

[safewalrus]

Mas is an ex Artilleryman! And I don't drive!

[masalai]

Safie, are you suggesting I play with my gun? or are you driving at something else?

[safewalrus]

Probably!

[mr curious]

i have more respect for these guys. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26436974/wid/18298287/?GT1=45002) :cool:

http://scienceblogs.com/shiftingbaselines/Junk%20Raft%20Photo.jpg

[Knut Sand]

Safie, are you suggesting I play with my gun? or are you driving at something else?

Hmmm. "play" as is in something actually happens, at the moment...? but then he added a prefix; "ex". As in something completely past....:p

I'm on the other hand is ex NRAF (uncertain of translation and abbreviation..), safety equipment, the fellows with these oversized shotguns were peculiarly little bothered with safety issues. ::confused: :

Well, not me pulling those targets.....:rolleyes:

[safewalrus]

Knut it was OK as long as they were aware you where pulling the Target not PUSHING it!!

[masalai]

Oooooh we used to try to cut the tow-wire too as that put them out of action for a longer period (to change their diaber/nappy as well as install a new wire towing system - longer than the previous time) hehehe

[safewalrus]

Like your style Mas, we tried to bounce along it, or at least the gunners did, whilst the guy in the control room used to tell them all sorts of **** to keep them happy that we wern't trying to scare the 5hits out of the buggers! I was good at that..................'shittin I mean!