Attitude Problem

[Fanie]

I have these friends that are oblivious to the dangers and problems that exist when going to sea. They are almost like my son, knows everything. Since one only needs an 'R' license for fresh water boating and it's 'easy' getting it I sense some disrespect for it as well.

Any advice, references ?

[charmc]

Hi, Fanie,

I'm not sure what you're asking:

How to make them willing to admit they know little about boating and need some quality education?
Can't make them think differently, unless you have them follow you out in a storm, then hightail it for home port and leave 'em to get back themselves. Drastic, but guaranteed to work, unless they kill themselves; then you've lost friends. OK, bad idea. :D

How to trick them into getting some education and/or experience?
Better idea, but harder. Maybe take them out on your boat, let one take the helm (stay next to him/her, ready to take over) in a "heavy traffic" area. Once he/she feels the pressure and realizes that there are serious decisions to be made, often very quickly, attitudes might become more open and willing to be taught.

Here we have volunteer organizations recognized by the USCG which teach basic boating safety, seamanship, and navigation courses at reasonable cost. Many local boat clubs do the same. Chapman's Piloting, Seamanship and Small Boat Handling is an excellent publication, has been around forever but updated regularly and now available on CD and DVD with interactive teaching. It's a great guide for new boaters, covering all the basics. It's American, but the principles are universal, except for the details of rules of the road and local navigation,of course.

I'm sure SA has equivalents to everything I just mentioned.

Hope some of this helps, even the first idea, if they're real idiots. :D

[Guest625101138]

I (or my wife) have bred three very conservative sons. So I speak from a different perspective.

Interestingly my eldest, having a PhD in genetics, has casually commented on some of the deaths in cars from local young men getting a skin full and then driving is that it is natural selection at work - heartless I thought but maybe an ounce of fact.

I have personally written off two cars; almost drowned my three year old brother when I flipped a small overpowered boat; almost lost my own 3yo son when he fell out of a boat (with life jacket on); been swamped in a boat on a river bar in 3m waves; towed to safe water in a yacht and so on.

My current paid work is engineering risk assessment. I am paid to reduce clients risk of loss. Everything has to be under control. Having been in a few difficulties I understand cause and consequence reasonably well.

So this is a mixed message... but we can be too cosseting. I found some symmetry in the death of Sir Edmund Hillary the day before the CTD guys landed in NZ. Hillary, a Kiwi Legend, is regarded as the last great earth explorer. But there are still firsts possible for average joe on earth.

There is a very fine line between ignorance and bravery. Often the bravery is a label applied after the fact. The event would have never happened if it was done with full knowledge and understanding of risks.

I look at some of the rescue reports of adventurers setting out in small boats to cross oceans and the reality hits about one day in and they need to be rescued. Others are just too pig-headed to admit defeat and become a hero. So we have a dose of ignorance, pig-headed, risk seeking, endurance and other traits that make the great adventurer. I do not think you can have an adventure without an element of risk.

So be careful of killing adventure. Encourage it with an ounce of risk assessment. The second most effective way of learning is by doing. The number one way of learning is teaching others to do it but this is next to impossible if you have not done it.

Rick W.

[PAR]

Take them into harms way and scare the crap out of them. This will require you be much more scared then they, but it's an effective technique.

[longliner45]

give them 1 hr of utube,,look for the good wrecks ,,,,and dont forget to let them see (flying dude)if that one dont get thier attention,,,,,,let em go,longliner

[alan white]

Slocum went to sea, an old man, unfit for solo offshore work. He was lost without a trace at a ripe old age.
Some risks are worth the taking, I think. Those would be the ones we are aware of and yet decide to take them anyway.
Those who take risks without any awareness of the danger sometimes do well, which encourages them to take ever larger risks, and then one day they go too far.

[charmc]

Great idea, John! Wow, "Flying Dude" is incredible.

Fanie, here are some about the sea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhQHKjwwl7E&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BolZh0i3YqU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGdI9x88oTE&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j_VWduUqaY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3408T5A-ApU&feature=related

[Fanie]

I have often thought of drowning them myself :D

I think you're right, Rick. I'll let up on myself a bit ;) I have a tendency to ecpect too much ? from othres.

[masalai]

Fanie, most kids feel they are stronger than superman & bullet proof too. They must learn and find out for themselves. The trick is to allow this as early as possible then, just out of nappies, trying to fly with a bedsheet as a parachute, realise some of their limits with at worst a broken leg, but before any real damage can be done.
Nowadays, with mummy driving them to school and picking up after, no chance to test their limits, so as teenagers - You can guess the rest. The parent generation is to cosseting.......

[westlawn5554X]

if you deter u get opposite reaction... puberty law of youth hardhead... yeah... let them follow a group of fishmen head for high sea in rainning season would cure them... bring a lot of plastic bag and harness...

[Kay9]

There is a reson the USCG uses young men as rescue swimmers. :)

Man if I knew then what I know now I would have never gone out on a 41' in the CG.

K9

[TollyWally]

A few years on working boats operated in heavy weather can create high standards. The sad truth is most pleasure boaters are relatively clueless. The difference between the reckless and the unskilled is largely a matter of degree not kind. Generally speaking boats can take more than people. I consider boating to be inherently quite safe, otherwise the beaches would be littered with corpses.

Everything I've seen regarding "boater education" is mostly useless. Much like driver's ed in high school. Talk about teaching to the test. Experience is by far the best teacher, a humble attitude helps. My .02

[Fanie]

Experience is by far the best teacher, a humble attitude helps
I agree on this 100%. One thing I noticed recently is that when some idiot does survive some situation he blames everything and everyone else but his own ignorance. It takes a big man to admit you've erred especially when there's damages to be resposible for.

[safewalrus]

If they are that dangerous steer clear of them! Only meet them in the bar - ashore! Might not be nice, but you live longer!

[charmc]

I agree on this 100%. One thing I noticed recently is that when some idiot does survive some situation he blames everything and everyone else but his own ignorance. It takes a big man to admit you've erred especially when there's damages to be resposible for.

Fanie,

When you started this thread you called it Attitude problem, used the term "knows everything" and said you sensed some disrespect.

Attitude is the key. A closed mind will blame everyone and everything else and never learn. The ones who succeed (and at sea - survive) are those who screw up, decide they might need to do it better, then analyze what happened and seek information on how to improve.

When I was in my 20's I bought an old single screw inboard fishing skiff. Bent someone's rail on a windy day when I paniced in close quarters and stalled the engine going from forward to reverse. Seeking out the marina manager and the other boat owner and paying for the damage was really humiliating, and I vowed I'd become an expert single screw boat handler. It took some good instruction from a veteran and a huuuuge amount of practice, but eventually some folks actually complimented me on my docking skills. I'm not talking about me, but about the process of acquiring boating skills. You yourself started a thread saying you want to learn more about sailing and building a tri. You asked for help, and have entertained your on line friends with stories of your experiences. I'll bet you're getting better in both areas. If those other guys aren't willing to admit that they will benefit from learning more ... they'll never learn. The sea holds us all to the same standards, so that drowning option might take care of itself someday. ;)

[Jimbo1490]

People die in boating accidents all the time, but nobody pays any attention. Here in Central Florida, we hear about a fatal accident almost every week. There were two fatalities locally over the weekend when two passengers were thrown from a powerboat on a lake and drowned. When you consider how much fewer man-hours are spent on boats compared to cars, the passengers on boats have a much higher fatal accident rate.

There is something inherently unsafe about boats, and that is of course that they travel on water. If you get hurt and/or if your boat becomes unseaworthy, you will find yourself in great peril.

This inherent danger can be overcome just by changing the behavior of the boat operator. But, unlike the situation with cars, this is still essentially totally voluntary; nobody really makes you change your behavior to become a safe boater.

At some point you wake up to the fact that we the human operators/passengers in boats are fragile and the ocean (or even a lake) is big and unforgiving. A good scare could be a good start, or the last voyage :( Maybe a trip to the emergency room? What does it take?

Jimbo

[Fanie]

So good design is actually bad since it gives a false sense of security :D

I think attitude says it best, and applies to everything that involves risk.

[safewalrus]

People die in boating accidents all the time, but

Jimbo

luckily they only get to do it once - death ain't habit forming! So best not to do it the first time................

[Guest-3-12-09-9-21]

I like what Homer Simpson said...

"Everybody's stupid. That's why everybody does everything!"

That about sums it up, doesn't it?

--Chuck

[PAR]

Imagine for a moment, an example of primitive man, standing on the Serengeti planes and he thinks he sees something from the corner of his eye. It could be a lion so he runs. Or he could have stood firm, thinking it was the wind and been wrong. We are the direct descendants of those that ran . . .

[Kay9]

Not the ones that ran off the cliff.

[PAR]

And lived long enough to breed . . .

[Trevlyns]

There you go again... sex sex SEX!!!

[Guest-3-12-09-9-21]

Good judgement comes from experience. Experience, quite often, comes from moments of bad judgement.

[Tim B]

Fanie,

Get them out in a dinghy with reasonable performance, and give them a few lessons. Dinghies react faster than full-scale yachts and have more memorable effects when you get it wrong. I've scared myself a few times.

Also think about getting them to read the MAIB report about the dinghy trajedy off the north coast of wales (or at least the thread on this forum). That could have been a perfectly safe trip with a little experience.

ANYBODY who thinks that you don't need to respect the sea will get corrected VERY quickly.

Good luck,

Tim B.

[safewalrus]

If they got no respect the only way they will get it is a BIG fright, trouble is to do that you have to be in the boat with them! sod that it may scare the 5h1t out of you too! Stick 'em in the boat, give it a shove and leave 'em be!

[timgoz]

"A man that does not fear the sea will soon be drowned, for he will be going out on a day that he should not. But we, we fear the sea, and we only be drowned now & again."