Pop-Up Cleats

[Willallison]

I'm trying to find a manufacturer of modern-looking pop-up or flip-up cleats that don't require a drain. Any clues?

[USCGRET/E8]

http://www.discountmarinesupplies.com/Boat_Cleats-SEACHOICE_STAINLESS_PULL_UP_CLEATS.html
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ACCON-4-1-2-POP-UP-CLEAT-FOR-BOAT-MARINE-202-4_W0QQitemZ320027733383QQcmdZViewItem
http://shopping.rexmar.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=cleatspopup
http://www.fishing-catalog.com/AcconMarine/POP-UP_Cleat.htm
http://www.overtons.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?pdesc=Flush_Mounted_6_Pop_Up_Cleat&cname=Fender-Accessories&r=view&i=31995&aID=25C
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/STAINLESS-STEEL-POP-UP-CLEAT-316-GRADE_W0QQitemZ110195475132QQihZ001QQcategoryZ102818QQcmdZViewItem

[Willallison]

Thanks USC... Unfortunately they all need drains. Accon do make a flip-up one, but I'm not that keen on the style.
There's a very nice european one that's made of aluminium, with flip-up 'wings' - Can't remember the manufacturer - doesn't really matter though - the were about 500 euro's a pop!

[PAR]

Will, I remember the one I think you're looking for. It popped up, but the base was raised and it self drained from waterways machined on the base. I don't remember the manufacture, but they were purely modern powerboat styling and costly. I'll see if I can find an old add for one (they may be gone now).

[Gilbert]

I've seen many commercial fishermen use a piece of innertube rubber fastened down on the forward and inner side of cleats to keep lines, nets, etc. from hanging up on them. I know it's not a pop-up cleat so don't bother telling me.

[Willallison]

Thanks guys - attached is a pic of the Nomen Cleat.... the very expensive one. It isn't exactly what I'm after, and it's certainly outside the acceptable price range, but it's got a nice contemporary look to it.
Also a pic of the fold-up one from Accon Marine... quite nice, but I was after something a bit squarer. (Now he's just being picky!;) ) Also not too sure about how practical it would be with those sharp edges...might chafe ropes a bit...?
Any and all suggestions much appreciated as always...:D

[Pericles]

On page 22 of http://thecoastalpassage.com/papers/tcp24.pdf you will see the disappearing cleat in the article about last year's Auckland Boat Show.

Description: One product that took my eye was a cleat, manufactured by Strong Marine Ltd, it was
electrically operated from a switch at the helmstation, and was designed so that in its
down position, the rope would simply drop off, and the cleat would be flush with the deck'

Pericles

[Willallison]

Now that has to be the coolest bit of kit ever made! They're called Autocleat, though once again outside the price range for this application (but pretty reasonable given the engineering involved...)

It doesn;t exactly fit in with my "less-is-more" pholosophy either....but hey, I have an internal struggle between the KISS principle and a serious case of affluenza..... what can I say!:D

[Frosty]

Handy In so much as you don't stub your toe but---

I mean? --as a cleat I would'nt use it to tie up the boat seriously, and expect it to be there when I get back.

As is any compromise its of little use but looks good.

[Willallison]

I'm sure that the engineering is sound enough to ensure that so long as you know how to 'tie a knot', it wouldn't let go of its own accord.
I have visions of arriving at my berth to tie up single handed in a blow, only to discover that I'd forgotten to push the button on the dash to raise all the cleats......:eek:

[Willallison]

These seem like the best option so far....

[Frosty]

I disagree that the 'engineering' is good.
Take the one that folds down, it folds down on a hinge, a hinge that has a small pin that cant be much more than 3/4mm. Through the cleat is a hole.

A chain is as strong as its weakest link.

They are by no means as strong as a proper cleat.

For a speed boat thats needs to tie up to a fishing pier while you pop up the the shop they are ok. But for a serious sea boat,well--I wouldnt tie my fenders to them.

[charmc]

Will,

I'm inclined to weigh in with Frosty on this one. The question, of course, is what is the purpose of the cleats? Spring loaded or pin mounted cleats will be intrtinsically weak at the non-cleat part. The two horn design that raises and lowers via power is a prisoner of a power system. They look cool and have a lower profile when stowed/folded, etc.; but what is the function beyond that?

The memory of my boat moored securely in her slip during several 50-80 knot storms makes me glad that all cleats were large and through-bolted with strong backing plates. Stepping around them is a small price for security.

[Willallison]

I take your point Frosty - these types of fitting certainly aren't fit for all purposes...
But I pose the question... just what holds a 'real' cleat to the deck? Quite often it's only screws (should never be done IMHO) but even with thru bolts, they are probably not much larger in total cross-section than the pins to which you refer.....
Weakest link, as you say....

Out of interest, just what do you tie your fenders to?

[Willallison]

Sorry Charlie - we were both obviously typing at the same time...

I have no experience with the Autocleat, so I can only go on the info on their website. In their defense, I think they do have a manual oparation back-up.

As I said a moment ago, I agree that all these cleats have limitations as to their use - it'd be REALLY interesting to see some comparative strain testing done on the various types available

[charmc]

Will,

Yeah, strain test data would be interesting. Of course, as you mention, a robust cleat is useless unless through bolted to a strong part of the deck or bulwark, with a large and heavy backing plate. For the last ones I installed, on a 30' boat, I used 3/8" (10 mm) SS bolts. I don't remember the exact tensile strength, but the hull would come apart before those bolts broke.

[Frosty]

I tie my fenders to the 1 inch hand rail surrounding the boat. I would like to think that the cleats would hold the weight of the boat 13 tons.

The insurance company over saw the lashing of the boat using these cleats when she was shipped.

To me a cleat is how you attach a rope to the boat. The reason for this can be many towing ,being towed anchoring or taking a bite from the main anchor chain, Whatever. Having to consider its weaknesess before use is not an option in my book.

Cleats and fairleeds are usually inadequate on modern boats.

Its my opinion that many accidents have been caused by inadequate equipment in the name of esthetics and profit.

[Willallison]

Ok Frosty - and how are your 25mm hand rails attached to the boat?
Sorry, I'm not trying to have a go....
As you say, horses for courses - in this instance I'm looking for cleating solutions for a relatively light weight trailerable powerboat that by necessity has narrow side decks. I've stubbed my toe on similar boats before and have no desire to do so again....

I think I'll drop a note to the editor of a couple of good boating mags and suggest they run some strain testing.....
In most instances though, I would think that the deck would give way before the cleat...

[Frosty]

Ok Frosty - and how are your 25mm hand rails attached to the boat?

By 24mm stancheons Will, but the forces to a fender are few, and can only be by the fender getting stuck between the boat and the dock there by producing a downward force,---the way the stancheon can take it best.

[Willallison]

I disagree that the 'engineering' is good.
Take the one that folds down, it folds down on a hinge, a hinge that has a small pin that cant be much more than 3/4mm. Through the cleat is a hole.

A chain is as strong as its weakest link.

They are by no means as strong as a proper cleat.

For a speed boat thats needs to tie up to a fishing pier while you pop up the the shop they are ok. But for a serious sea boat,well--I wouldnt tie my fenders to them.

I know, I know, I'm being pedantic.... I promise to stop going on about this... but.... well if your stanchions are screwed to cap rails - as so many are, then they ain't that strong.... surely not as strong as even the weakest of cleats.....

[charmc]

I promise to stop going on about this... but.... well if .....

Ah, temptation. In all likelihood, the desire to be right was the catalyst
for the development of language by early man.

Chuckling sympathetically, Will. I recognize that temptation to keep making points and continue a good discussion ... every time I look in a mirror it's sitting on my own shoulder. :)

[Frosty]

The hand rails and stancheons are bolted through the hull with 4 bolt feet with nuts and bolts --6mm. You can walk on it.

[Willallison]

Amazingly (and most pleasingly), one of the manufacturers actually publishes recommended max loadings for their cleats. These are alloy ones of the fold-up variety...

If I track down some similar info on 'traditional' cleats, I'll post it too....

[charmc]

FYI all, I saw a picture of Wallygator recently. 25 m/82 ft and 30 T displacement. Has pop up cleats. I gues if you pay enough, you can get good ones. :)