15 m (50') semiplanning boats

[Guillermo]

Dear all,
I'm trying to gather information on retro-looking, nice lined, seaworthy and low powered mono-hulled sport-fishing boats around 50' (everything: old, new, production boats, one-offs, just designs, etc), designed to usually trawl at around 7 knots, but able to efficiently go up to 14-15 knots (at its most) when needed.
Cruisers easily convertible to sport-fishing trawling will also be useful.
All contributions will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.

[MikeJohns]

Guillermo
How retro? what sort of era and materials? Not sure how low powered you want for that 15 knots.

Off the top of my head something along the lines of;
Grand Banks 45 or a 59
or a Bertram 50 or 58 with smaller engines perhaps ?

[yipster]

Hi Guillermo, same questions as MikeJohns here plus my own fantasy ;)
first thought went to MTB boats but you look for semi-displacement boats
as you know semi-planning hulls operate at a Fn of 1.0 to 3.0
half gliders perform best over Fn 2.0 but want a low deadrise hullform
here a 18 meter halfgliding riverboat to raised pilothouse cruiser conversion
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/hawk_deck.gif

[Guillermo]

Thanks, Yipster and Mike.
Something in the line of classic motoryachts from the first half of the last century. Two-three days 20-30 miles offshore trawl-fishing for 4 persons scheme, but room up to six when in coastal cruising. Accomodotion forward, ample fishing cockpit astern. No flybridge or tower. Wood (traditional or modern) as preferred material, but can be any other. Power no bigger than 300 HP.

Something like this, but more ample, only partial covered cockpit: http://www.classicmotoryachts.com.au/classic_monohull.htm
Or in the line of the the Hinckley T44 (http://www.yachtworld.es/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?&units=Feet&id=1766856&lang=en&slim=broker&&hosturl=hinckley&&ywo=hinckley&), but semiplanning....or the Andreyale 50' (http://www.classic-boats.com/en/andreyale15.php) but with an stern cockpit....etc, etc.

Cheers.

[marshmat]

A bit of hunting for such craft at the local boatyards turns up.... well, not much. Most of the local fleet falls into one of three groups: fin keel sailing monohulls, sailing dinghies, or overpowered, overweight fat-butt planing hulls.

(First 3 pics)
The Ellis 40, http://www.ellisboat.com/ellis40.php A fair hair smaller than your 15 m target range, but they claim a 12 to 20 kt cruise and 26 kt top end on a single 500 hp diesel. I'd guess she'd fit your speed range well with a 300 hp? Nice Downeast lines in the hull and gorgeous topsides styling in several versions. Is this the kind of hull you're thinking of?

(4th pic)
Here's something listed for sale in Portland, ME http://portlandme.kijiji.com/c-Cars-vehicles-Boats-fishing-scallop-lobster-boat-W0QQAdIdZ31321408 Somewhat stouter and more traditional looking, big open cockpit, massive DD 6-71.... inspired yet? :)

[Guillermo]

Thans Marshmat,
The profile of the blue Ellis 40' is quite the idea.

Cheers.

[yipster]

you said it, why not a older stylish fishing battlewagon (http://www.rybovich.com/default.aspx?p=v35ListDocument&NoModResize=1&NoNav=1&ShowFooter=False&nw=1&listname=Rybovich&listitemid=84140&ID=754575280) without the tower? i'll keep an eye open for such designs, if any
yes i'll get the idea, you show the sheer, a "bakdek" in dutch, nice and practical lines but on semiplanning read Raymond Hunt (http://www.huntdesigns.com/about_deepv_comparison.htm)
i'll say jokingly a cat can do 15 knts easy at way lower consumption, only wish i knew how a twenty's cat would have looked like

[Guillermo]

Grand Banks 49, as suggested by Mike, looks fine, but our boat needs to be semiplanning and bigger cockpit.
http://www.grandbanks.com/yachts/eastbay/49hx/gallery.cfm

[Guillermo]

Yipster,
this boat is not intended to cruise at semiplanning mode, but in displacement mode. The semiplanning mode is only necessary to come quickly ashore when offshore fishing and deteriorating weather is announced.

Cheers.

[Guillermo]

Tad Robert's Passagemeker Lite concept could be also applicable, with some modifications and asuming somewhat lower speeds in the range of 12-13 knots....mmmm...
http://www.passagemakerlite.com/designs/passagemakerlite-46plus

[Ike]

Perhaps you are looking for something along the lines of the Tom Fexas Midnight Lace design. http://www.tomfexas.com/midnightlace.html

[Guillermo]

Thanks, Ike. Interesting story. And interesting boat (the original 52).

Yipster,
I think you had some info on a 1929 Herreshoff design called "Stroller", didn't you?


Cheers.

[marshmat]

Herreshoff "Stroller" - mentioned briefly in an older thread on here at http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=108235&postcount=74

[Guillermo]

Thanks, Matt. Any more info on that boat?

[Tad]

The first of these is a Sparkman & Stephens design, Witch of the Waves, 45'LOA and runs almost 20 knots with twin Chrysler Imperial gas engines of 225 HP each.
17927

Second is one of my favorites, Porpoise, a 60' Swordfisherman built 1951 and designed by Geerd Hendel. Twin 275Hp push her up to 20 knots, displacement only 47,500 pounds.
17928

And finally Puffin, designed by Ken Smith, original Grand Banks designer. She is 42' by 13' displacement about 20,000 pounds. Twin 195HP GM diesels push her up to 19mph.
17929
17930

[jorghenderson]

A 12-metre timber-built proof-of-concept launch.

This design primarily aims to satisfy the needs and desires of owners who have previously only owned sailing cruisers. To this end the idea is to replace the often noisy and bumpy 'sprint' approach to voyaging under power in a planing-hulled powerboat with a quieter and less frenetic approach to passage-making.

A realistic cruising speed is typically between about 13 and 15 knots, although the hull itself will still be efficent at speeds up to about 20 knots (15 knots requires about 80 hp of applied power.)

40, 46, 56 feet versions of this hull seem to be planned.

This is information only feel free to design your own.

http://www.nigelirens.demon.co.uk/FRAMElaunch.htm

[Guillermo]

Thanks Tad and Jorg. Also to PAR for the PM.

Cheers.

[FAST FRED]

I have the plans for STROLLER , from the MIT museum . but they have no performance information.

The concept is right ,long lean and as light as can be rationally be built for rough service.

The wood construction could be probably half the weight today and new diesels (if you are willing to go offshore with converted car engines) are far lighter for the power. Less fuel would need to be lugged with the same range.

The Lake Powell (sp?) boats have the same good looks with the 20's or 30's retro look.

Probably a 5-1 LB is as fat as I would dare and hope for any efficency at speed.

FF

[Pericles]

Guillermo,

Way too fast, way too beautiful and way too costly, but it's a lobster boat. :D

http://www.vicemyacht.com/

Perry

[Guillermo]

Thanks, Perry and Fred.

Happy New Year to all!

[FAST FRED]

AS the higher speeds would be "get home Quick" only , I think a seakindly round bottom would be the best choice.

No extra stability would be gained from flat spots in the stern , but the better rough water ride at all times should make up for that.

FF

[Tad]

Guillermo,
I'm not sure of your meaning with the use in your first post of the word "trawl"? On this coast trawling is a fishing method using a towed bag shaped net held open under water by "doors". These nets are set on long towing wires, from large drum winches, and are very heavy loads. The boats are called trawlers or draggers and are equipped with powerful engines. I don't think that is what you are after.

On the other hand (and again on this coast) trolling refers to another fishing method where individual lines with hooks and bait are towed through the water at a low speed, usually 1-2 knots for salmon but faster if fishing for something like Tuna.

Or perhaps your use of the word trawl just refers to slow cruising?

Pericles,
The Vicem is many things but it's no lobster boat....this is a lobster boat.
17958
Lobster boats are characterized by huge open flush decks for carrying lobster pots. They have an open control and pot hauling station forward on the starboard side. The hulls are designed for speed, this 36' is powered by a 325HP Cat and runs over 20 knots. 42' s are set up with 5-600HP.

Not sure what Fred is getting at...
At 7 knots the round bottom hull will have the lowest resistance, it may roll more or less than any other shape as there are other factors involved. At 14-15 knots dynamic stability comes into play and the boat could benefit from "flat spots". Also at this 15 knt speed (and no matter the form) a flat spot in the form of a spray strake or chine will be required forward.

A 50' hull at 7 knots is S/L of 1.01, which could be very efficient if the hull is formed to take advantage of this low speed/length ratio. But a 50' hull at 15 knots is a S/L of 2.1, well up into semi-planing territory. There will need to be a large compromise at one end of the scale if you want optimum efficiency at the other end. Or you can design around an 11 knot speed, S/L 1.55, and compromise somewhat at either extreme.

If the hull is formed and powered to run nicely at 15 knots, you will pay a penalty at lower speeds, partialy from high resistance and partially from too much HP. If she is designed to run nicely (level with low resistance) at 7 knots, trim (and drag) will be excessive at 15 knots.

What you need is a variable form afterbody, and triple engines could be very efficient except in first cost.

Tad

[Guillermo]

Tad,
what I really mean is 'trolling', of course. An stupid mistake from my bad english.

I had done a first rough estimative, and for 45' Lwl and 12' Bwl with a displacement of 30,000 pounds at 70% load, we'd need around 240 SHP for 14 knots.

I'm considering now also to reduce top speed to around 12 kn, where power needed could be only of around 150 SHP. I'm thinking about designing for efficiency at this performance, as we'd need only about 32 SHP for trolling at 7 kn.

But it's soon yet to make decissions. More thinking around is needed.

All the best.

[yipster]

whalingsloops once were fast, sloops are popular here and i've seen weird wing fixtures on the skeg to get them up over the hump

[Pericles]

Tad,

Thanks for the guidance and the picture :p When Guillermo gets to his office tomorrow he'll have to plough through my email to him listing a large number of sites relating to trawling, when he meant trolling. Oh well!:D

Al the best,

Pericles

[fcfc]

For 15m, less than 300 hp, you had once the Grand Banks 48 http://www.gbwoodies.com/member_site.php?id=210 with twin lehman 120 hp.
The very early krogen express 49 http://www.yachtworld.fr/boats/1813877/0/ with twin 170 hp.

Sligthly heavier and slower the selene 50 http://www.fridayharboryachts.com/selene/s50/s50.html


But all are no longer in production. The current GB 47 has now twin 593 hp, the current Krogen express 52 has twin 480 hp. and the selene has increased to 53 ft.


Line drawing of the krogen express 49 can be seen there http://www.yachtworld.fr/boats/1710990/0/ But it is already an evolution of the initial design. The initial design had 170 hp engines under the salon floor and a third cabin under the pilotehouse (portligths in the hull) . Very quickly, the engines had been increased to 420 hp, and used the space below the pilothouse because they no longer fit under the salon floor. BTW, engines hours of the ads show that owners of such boats run engines between 75 to 140 hours a year. The yearly fuel bill is about 2% of the boat price given twin 420 hp used at 60% average power for 100 hours.


Homebuilt way is http://www.glen-l.com/designs/cruiser/klondike.html


I fear that if you want to reduce speed for money reasons, to cut costs on fuel, you are on the wrong path.

Seems that the best way to reduce ownership costs is to reduce length, not speed.

You 15m semidisplacement will have to face competition from 12m planning hull like
http://www.grandbanks.com/yachts/heritage/41eu/index.cfm , http://www.beneteau.fr/en/motorboats/produit.aspx?GAM_CODE=12&PRO_CODE=56 , http://www.swemarine.com/commander410.html

All are current (and recent ) production from big names (with marketing departments). The initial price tag is between 360 k€ (beneteau) to 600 k€ (swemarine) tax included for new boats. Which is lower than the price tag for a new 15m boat, even semi displacement (guess estimate from 600 k€ to over 1 M€). The asked used price of a 12 years old krogen express 49 without sales taxes is higher than brand new beneteau price including sales taxes.

Maintenance cost will be lower for smaller ligther boats, starting with marina fees or hauling.

And at 14 kts, I am not sure that a 12m 10tons planning hull burn more fuel that a 15m 15tons semi displacement hull. I agree efficiency will be lower due to hull form and shorter lwl, but I am not sure it will be enougth to overcome the displacement difference.

Same, the inside volume is not so much smaller. These 12m planning boats are on the beamy side, higher stacking. (All have top cockpit / flybridge).

And all can go over 25 kts if the owner wants some fun.

[fcfc]

I think perhaps you could try to contact Stephen Ditmore if you want first hand information on the Krogen Express 49.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1254&postcount=13

Also read http://www.kadeykrogen.com/articles/pages/TrueToFormUnedited.htm

So I dont really know where the 2 x 170 hp version come from but it sure does exist, since it is on sale.

[Guillermo]

Thanks fcfc for the nice post and Perry for the extensive list of 'trawlers' I've found at the e-mail (so sorry for my stupid mistake :( )

fcfc,
fuel bill is not a concern, but keeping power low and traditional appearance is rather a philosophical matter in this case.

Cheers.

[Pericles]

Guillermo,

Posted elsewhere, a hull form disguised as a Down Easter.:D

More very useful information about construction is available at http://www.mecat.com/indexpower.htm

The P-45 regular updates for 15th October 2006 reveal an unusual (to me) underwater hull form.

Perry

[jehardiman]

You could look at some of the early "Carolina Fishermen" from the outer banks/Hawkers Island or early Tollycraft or Trumpy designs.

The big question is what do you mean "low powered".

A modern sportfisherman is expected to range 50-100 miles offshore. In order to make it a day trip, sea speeds need to be in the 25 knot range. Additionaly, if you're after billfish, trolling speeds and fighting speeds need to be higher than 7 knots, or the fish may strip the reel in a run.

The older Monterey Clipper trollers, were very low powered, but whet out for days at a time.

Then you could always look at a Wheeler. :D
http://www.gilligansisle.com/minnow.html

[Guillermo]

A modern sportfisherman is expected to range 50-100 miles offshore
Not around here, nor billfishing. Thanks for the contribution.

Cheers.

[CigaretteDesign]

What type of a boat, cruiser, yacht, go-fast?

[yipster]

ok this one is planning, nice midnight lace 2008 video (http://www.boattest.com/videos_homepage_fl.aspx?source=demos&target=video&speed=broadband&title=Midnight%20Lace%2052&folder=midnightlace&clip=midnightlace_52&width=400&height=300) tho but think i liked the original better

[charmc]

Guillermo,

There were some excellent designs built in the US from the 1930's through the 1950's, cruisers and sport fishermen. Many had the performance you mentioned, trolling for hours at 5-7 knots, and able to get home at 15 -17 knots if needed. The ones in my personal experience usually had a narrow beam, deep vee entry transitioning to a nearly flat bottom aft, with rounded chines and a skeg. Very good sea keeping, able to maintain planing speeds in seas over 3 m without pounding (more than once, my passengers would fall asleep while we were travelling in steep swells at 15 knots). A deep keel and skeg helped tracking in following and quartering seas. Perfect? No, very tender; rolling at anchor in even moderate chop, and very wet while slicing through those steep swells. The lines of those classics might make a good beginning for a modern iteration of the offshore power cruiser/fisherman.

[charmc]

A few more pictures.

[fcfc]

Here is the 19m N Irens : http://www.tuco.dk/default.asp?mn1=5&mn2=6&mn3=63&sid=80

Perhaps a bit above your length. An I do not exactly understand how it is built. I fact, I do not understand how at all ...


It is difficult to find styling for a rather fast and low power boat by looking fishing boats. Fisherman are more on the heavy slow boats, except recent (say 1960 and newer ...) outboard powered hulls. Olders boats were built carved wood. This material does not lead to designs compatible with your goals.
Older typical french brittany fishing boats were displacing from 35 to 70 tons for length 15m 18m. Even open boats around 9m-10m were in the 8-10 tons range, and I fear most other countries fishermen had the same weight constraints from building methods and bilge size.

[Guillermo]

Thanks a lot, fcfc and Charlie.

[FAST FRED]

I think the long thin designs of the 20-30's are great. The extra deck area of a modern sport fish bow might be an improvement while handeling the ground takle , if it could look good.

http://www.classicyacht.org/gallery/displayimage.php?album=random&cat=0&pos=-65

With a bit more flair at the deck?

FF