Inflatable collar for survival Dinghy

[Unionjack]

For years now I have searched to bridge the compromise for a need for a survival dinghy and at the same time have a pretty wooden boat. I have decided to try and install an inflatable collar on my 9' "Nutshell. (like a "Walker Bay") Have had no luck at all in finding resources to help me progress? Suggestions please

[Kay9]

First I have heard of it. But it might just be a GREAt idea if you can get it to work. You might also consider and canopy that inflates as well. You might just be onto a great idea here.

K9

[rasorinc]

Henshaw ribs in England make the most in the world. Howere the pound is very strong and they add a 15% VAT. Try Wing Inflatables in Eureka, Calif.
they do a lot of re-tubing. Good luck, stan

[Unionjack]

Thanks I'll try Wings in CA

[rasorinc]

another thought. I am making some ridged tubes out of styrofoam billets
and wrapping them in a 22 oz. fabric that can be attached to the outside hull with a number of fasteners including threaded inserts. I've been working on this for awhile to sell to owners of small, light craft that like to venture out where they should not be and need proven buoyancy. billets float 55 lbs. per C ft. and cannot become saturated. Also they can be bought in any size.
Stan

[timgoz]

There are some fellows in Ohiopyle, PA (USA) who make custom whitewater rafts. An inflatable dinghy collar would be well within thier abilities & I would think they would be reasonably priced. Wilderness Voyagers (1-800-272-4141) would most likely know how to contact them.

Tim

[Unionjack]

Thanks Stan, good input. The major problem in a 38' cruising boat, is stowage would be a problem, but if the coast of the inflatable option is to great I may revert. Regards Unionjack

another thought. I am making some ridged tubes out of styrofoam billets
and wrapping them in a 22 oz. fabric that can be attached to the outside hull with a number of fasteners including threaded inserts. I've been working on this for awhile to sell to owners of small, light craft that like to venture out where they should not be and need proven buoyancy. billets float 55 lbs. per C ft. and cannot become saturated. Also they can be bought in any size.
Stan

[rasorinc]

Hi, should tell you by tubes I mean retangles that hug the sides either inside or exterior of your hull. you may only need 3" wide product. Air tubes are large and not puncture proof and need UV protection. Also you need to make several chambers which adds greatly to cost. I have weighed the pluses and negatives many time over and find air tubes on the negative side for many reasons. stan

[FAST FRED]

We solved the problem by stowing the fenders under the seats of our Grumman Aluminum dink.

Tested it keeps the dink up enough to enter easily and stay far enough up to bail , till dry.

As we cruised offshore, survival suits were onboard , so swimming skills and cold water death were less of a risk.

I think it is unreasonable to expect a patch on collar to keep a dink dry .

But with a good sailing dink Self Rescue would seem doable.

FF

[Unionjack]

Fred and Stan, Many thanks for the input. I have experimented with the Walker Bay dinghy that has a patch on collar. I works very well indeed. As you say cost may be a major issue, We will see. Regards Unionjack

[Steve W]

Good morning from a new member,i have thought about this subject in the past and have a couple of inexpensive suggestions.
1/ buy a length of 4" vinyl discharge hose,this is the stuff that lays flat and can be bought at places like Home Depot,cut it to length and fold over the ends and glue them closed,(you will need to install a valve stem first) attatch it to the boat with straps around the tube,this will give about 100 lbs of floatation.
2/if you need more floatation buy some 18oz vinyl truck tarp material,you can buy this from any canvas shop that makes awnings etc,buy some adhesive from the same place,HH66 is the product i have used,now just make up a tube in any diameter you want with a simple overlap seam,i have made up airbags this way that can take 100psi,these required massive steel clamps to close the end,but you should be able to just glue the ends shut as you will only be using about 3 to 5 psi,glue on mounting tab of the same material,should have good uv resistance as they use this fabric for tarps and awnings,should be a fun and inexpensive project.
Steve.

[denny grover]

Saw a hard dink that had a collar made from an inflatable Kayak's tubes that worked well according to the owner. Inflatable Kayaks seem to be at most swapmeets cheap.

[Unionjack]

Steve & Denny, Many thanks, good input. Now if the weather improves here I shall get to testing the ideas received. Unionjack

[uintahiker]

Did you ever complete this project--I want to do something similar

[FAST FRED]

Should the dink flip , will the collar resist any attempt to right it?


Will a collar float a flooded boat high enough to allow bailing?

FF

[michael pierzga]

Having sat in a life raft , I would consider making the survival bouyancy of a yacht tender to be installed INSIDE of the tender...to displace water and provide insulation to its occupants. Insulation and a decent canopy are the key to survival. How much ? and what size is a good question.

[Squidly-Diddly]

inflatables to a boat, especially a keelboat that would have neg buoyancy if flooded.

Basically, you would have the inflatables sections ring the boat, probably just below the gunnels where they would also serve as fenders and splash defectors in their normal, sealed standby mode.

They could be activated manually, or if water pressure stays at 3ft for more than 20 seconds(or something).

I remember most folks not being too keen on the idea.

I'd rather have a 40' keelboat flooded with a RIB collar around it rather than be in some 6' diameter life-raft.

Seems to me, once you get a hole in any keel ballast boat, it is a going down fast, and forever.

I'd also want an Emergency Keel Release with explosive bolts or something, just so the hulk would stay afloat even if swamped.

But I guess lots of those boats don't sink often.

[Chuck Losness]

My hard dinghy is also my life raft. It was made to fit on the foredeck of my Gulfstar 37. I modified (with Sam's approval) Sam Devlin's guppy design to be a "V" chine power dinghy. I created four floatation chambers spread around the dinghy. Two aft and two under the center seat. I looked into a tube to attach to the gunnel but thought they were way too expensive and ugly to boot. I looked at "dinghy dogs" and the Walker Bay tubes. I saw in another forum that Walker Bay is not happy about people using their tubes on non Walker Bay dinghy's and that use now voids all warranties. Since I am a coastal cruiser I didn't try to come up with any type of canopy. But it wouldn't have been hard to do that. I plan to mount a long fender on each side this season to make it a little easier to get in over the side. The dink is very stable and I can get in from the water fore and aft and from either side. It has exceeded all of my expectations. I have attached some photo's

[sabahcat]

If something is inflatable it is also deflatable, something I would not want to happen in a survival situation.

Something like this would be better IMHO
http://www.kaptenboatcollar.com/
http://www.kapten.com.au/images/Image_2.png
http://www.kaptenboatcollar.com/uploads/7/1/3/3/7133578/9731799_orig.jpg

[RayThackeray]

Having sat in a life raft , I would consider making the survival bouyancy of a yacht tender to be installed INSIDE of the tender...to displace water and provide insulation to its occupants. Insulation and a decent canopy are the key to survival. How much ? and what size is a good question.

No. I have a LOT of experience in this area, I used to be a US distributor for Henshaws who made the most inflatable survival dinghies anywhere.

You don't want the tubes inside because that would leave little or no room for the occupants unless they are made to go under seats. They are perfectly good outside if they are made from typical dinghy vinyl or hypalon fabric. It's very easy to make your own tubes to measure for your dinghy, using a small tub of cheap bostik type glue. Make one for each side and build in tabs with bronze ferrules to tie them on before you go offshore.

Unless the dinghy is very heavy, you should have little trouble righting it if capsized (at least, no more difficulty doing that than with a typical liferaft, and I've done both.

I will not be getting a liferaft for my next adventure - I'd rather be in the dinghy with oars or even a sailing rig any day (remember, most sinkings are within sight of land, the last thing I'd want is to be hopelessly drifting offshore in a liferaft!).

Have your sailing rig in a bag attached to a line with one of those foam swimming flotation tubes inside and tow it after you if you have to abandon ship.

[RayThackeray]

If something is inflatable it is also deflatable, something I would not want to happen in a survival situation.

If you use typical vinyl or hypalon inflatable material, I hardly think this is likely. Think of the abuse the average dinghy or RIB gets over many years. Though your idea looks good if you have room for it.

[wayne nicol]

in response to last post on page one-i have righted many an inflatable white water rafts- with beams in and around 10' and with a pile of gear still attached, and oar frames and big heavy oars- you just need a flip line to help it a little.- we have even done it where one person holds onto the raft- and upon righting they are flipped into the boat- in order to assist with medical casualties- this was only done in drills- and was never used in practical situations- as a guide is able to quickly re- enter the righted raft and deal with the situation- thats just to give you an idea as to whats possible- from experience!!

[peterchech]

No. I have a LOT of experience in this area, I used to be a US distributor for Henshaws who made the most inflatable survival dinghies anywhere.

You don't want the tubes inside because that would leave little or no room for the occupants unless they are made to go under seats. They are perfectly good outside if they are made from typical dinghy vinyl or hypalon fabric. It's very easy to make your own tubes to measure for your dinghy, using a small tub of cheap bostik type glue. Make one for each side and build in tabs with bronze ferrules to tie them on before you go offshore.

Unless the dinghy is very heavy, you should have little trouble righting it if capsized (at least, no more difficulty doing that than with a typical liferaft, and I've done both.

I will not be getting a liferaft for my next adventure - I'd rather be in the dinghy with oars or even a sailing rig any day (remember, most sinkings are within sight of land, the last thing I'd want is to be hopelessly drifting offshore in a liferaft!).

Have your sailing rig in a bag attached to a line with one of those foam swimming flotation tubes inside and tow it after you if you have to abandon ship.

It would be really interesting to be able to actually sail back to shore in your own dinghy. But realistically, a sailing dinghy must be a certain size to be able to make any progress in rough water. And if you went down, there is a good chance that rough conditions were involved. I had a 12' cartopper dinghy that sailed well and was corky enough to handle some relatively steep chop. I would love to keep it rigged as a lifeboat. But it's too big to be a dinghy for my boat, and most boats under 35' I think.

It was only big enough to sail with two people, and possibly row, overloaded, with three. Sailing an 8' dinghy back home in any kind of chop just isn't happening IMHO... especially if loaded with more than one person... hell rowing it would be nearly impossible too...

[michael pierzga]

No. I have a LOT of experience in this area, I used to be a US distributor for Henshaws who made the most inflatable survival dinghies anywhere.

You don't want the tubes inside because that would leave little or no room for the occupants unless they are made to go under seats. They are perfectly good outside if they are made from typical dinghy vinyl or hypalon fabric. It's very easy to make your own tubes to measure for your dinghy, using a small tub of cheap bostik type glue. Make one for each side and build in tabs with bronze ferrules to tie them on before you go offshore.

Unless the dinghy is very heavy, you should have little trouble righting it if capsized (at least, no more difficulty doing that than with a typical liferaft, and I've done both.

I will not be getting a liferaft for my next adventure - I'd rather be in the dinghy with oars or even a sailing rig any day (remember, most sinkings are within sight of land, the last thing I'd want is to be hopelessly drifting offshore in a liferaft!).

Have your sailing rig in a bag attached to a line with one of those foam swimming flotation tubes inside and tow it after you if you have to abandon ship.
Ray, my tender's gunnels are beat to pieces and sunburnt from day to day use. How would you carry a wrap around tube on the gunnel and keep it viable for the next ten years until you need it ? A small seaworthy dingy with abundant internal bouyancy may cramp its occupants but it will stay robust and reliable until you may need it.

[RayThackeray]

Sailing an 8' dinghy back home in any kind of chop just isn't happening IMHO... especially if loaded with more than one person... hell rowing it would be nearly impossible too...

I'ce actually done it... Click here (http://offshore.ussailing.org/Assets/Offshore/SAS+Studies/1994+raft+test.pdf) for a report sponsored by West Marine on a lifeboat/liferaft trial.

As for trying to row or sail back to land in rough conditions - well, of course not! But you ain't going to do it in a conventional liferaft either - even if tranquil as a lake!

Agreed that you need a dinghy that will hold your crew, however depending on your crew size I contend that a typical inflatable will hold your crew more safely and with real options, if you've equipped it with positive flotation and the usual safety equipment.

[RayThackeray]

Ray, my tender's gunnels are beat to pieces and sunburnt from day to day use. How would you carry a wrap around tube on the gunnel and keep it viable for the next ten years until you need it ? A small seaworthy dingy with abundant internal bouyancy may cramp its occupants but it will stay robust and reliable until you may need it.

You don't identify what type of beat up tender you have - inflatable or hard? If an inflatable, you don't need another inflatable ring to get positive flotation, so I assume you mean a rigid dinghy, though I've never heard of a wood or fibreglass boat getting "sunburnt", so that leaves me confused. If rigid and the gunwales are so beaten up, it seems to me that it's time to replace or repair!

As for putting an inflatable ring inside, give it a try with balloons or something to see if you and your crew can actually get in. If not, you might be surprised at the amount of positive flotation you can get with air bags under seats etc.

One thing to bear in mind about liferafts - there have been a number of reports about crew, in severe conditions, panicking before the yacht is really sinking, into inflating the raft "so that it's ready". This creates an immediate emergency decision point - abandon ship NOW - because if you don't, the raft will be blown away.

Even if I had a conventional liferaft (which I don't), I would prepare the dinghy on passages for lifeboat use. Read Steve Callaghan's story (Adrift (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrift:_76_Days_Lost_At_Sea)) to find out just how uncomfortable it is in a liferaft...

[michael pierzga]

First off...anyone who ventured offshore without a proper liferaft is a fool.

I would consider a tender with abundant flotation as an additional piece of survival gear that may save your life in special circumstances. Consider abandoning ship one mile off a lee shore. A life raft would deliver its occupants into the breakers to be beaten to pieces against the rocks. A tender may very well be able to maneuver enough to allow its occupants to select a best option landing zone.

Consider a fire at sea. the life raft will be floating helplessly like a jellyfish...a tender may be able to stand off the smoking vessel..then return to the floating hulk to either reboard or scavange supplies

[RayThackeray]

First off...anyone who ventured offshore without a proper liferaft is a fool.

Utter, complete and absolute nonsense. I assume by this you mean "proper liferaft" as the usual emergency inflatable Switlik-type raft.

I will happily venture offshore (as I have for over 22,000 miles) with a well-rigged, rugged dinghy such as an inflatable or boat with flotation, with a sea anchor and bag with well thought-out survival equipment. As many ships and mariners have for thousands of years before. Even better if you can launch a bag on a painter that contains oars and sailing rig. If you can afford both then you'll have peace of mind if that's your wont.

Every option has its advantages and disadvantages, so you have to make your own decisions, but to call someone a fool because they don't choose your preference is particularly arrogant.

[michael pierzga]

Sorry Ray, youre a beginner , keep your " utter , complete, absolute nonsense " comments to yourself. I'm a full time sailor for the past 40 years. I sail 15,000 miles per year, more than a half million miles in small craft and dozens of oceanic crossings.

You may venture offshore unprepared, but I would never sail as your crew.

A life raft is a semi automatic, self contained, purpose built, survival device able to be deployed and used effectively by a disabled crew in difficult conditions.

Any tender type device will have to be physically deployed in difficult conditions by a fit crew member and can only ever be considered an additional safety device.

[RayThackeray]

Sorry Ray, youre a beginner , keep your " utter , complete, absolute nonsense " comments to yourself. I'm a full time sailor for the past 40 years. I sail 15,000 miles per year, more than a half million miles in small craft and dozens of oceanic crossings.

You may venture offshore unprepared, but I would never sail as your crew.

A life raft is a semi automatic, self contained, purpose built, survival device able to be deployed and used effectively by a disabled crew in difficult conditions.

Any tender type device will have to be physically deployed in difficult conditions by a fit crew member and can only ever be considered an additional safety device.

You certainly spout a load of bull droppings. You have a lot of certainty in your pronouncements that have little grounding in reality. There have been many boats in trouble that have deployed their wonderful "semi-automatic" liferafts, only to find the flimsy thing blew away before they could get into it. That's IF they could get into it - many tried and failed.

[michael pierzga]

Ray, get back on topic. The topic of this thread is how to ruggedize a tender for emergency use.

How to fit it out, fasten it to the deck and deploy it.

[RayThackeray]

Ray, get back on topic. The topic of this thread is how to ruggedize a tender for emergency use.

How to fit it out, fasten it to the deck and deploy it.

ME get back on topic?? You're the one pronouncing the liferaft-is-vital nonsense. I'm doing nothing BUT advocating making the tender ready for lifeboat use.

[michael pierzga]

If something is inflatable it is also deflatable, something I would not want to happen in a survival situation.

Something like this would be better IMHO
http://www.kaptenboatcollar.com/
http://www.kapten.com.au/images/Image_2.png
http://www.kaptenboatcollar.com/uploads/7/1/3/3/7133578/9731799_orig.jpg

Sabacats ruggedized tender looks good for everyday operation as well as emergency use. Sabacat, Think of a situation like a man overboard at sea on a two crew boat. It may not be possible or too dangerous for the remaining crewmember to physically handle the yacht, maneuver into position then singlehandedly retrieve the man overboard. In such a case Sabacat may choose to deploy his liferaft or survival tender in the hope that the man overboard can grab on, climb in and survive until daylight. The tender must have HANDHOLDS , a boarding ladder arrangement and high visibility colour plus SOLAS TAPE marking so the you can guide the swimmer into the tender with a torch and keep track of it till retrieval.

[tom28571]

I would suggest that everyone vitally interested in this topic read the following book: http://www.survivethesavagesea.com/Dougal2.htm

I met Dougal soon after he and his family of four had survived their sinking and long time survival. They had one of each, both inflatable and hard dinghy and it is instructive to see what happened to them.

I have no experience in survival at sea in a raft or anything similar and hope to never have any. Years and many thousands of miles on the ocean do not qualify me for expertise on survival. I am convinced that gimmick solutions will be only good for forum discussion and of scant value in the ocean. The best solution is to be on a boat that can itself survive what the ocean throws at it.

[eyschulman]

This problem has been nicely solved look at Gig harbor boats optional float collers. They can be put on and removed in very short order even upside down in water.