Rhino + what?

[Willallison]

Many of you will be aware that I've been fluffing about trying to get the hang of CAD etc....
Well, the time has come for me to buy some stuff!:D
Currently I use an older version of Multisurf for my hull surfacing and I have an (equally old) version of AutoCAD (R14) for general CAD.

I've decided to buy Rhino to do my superstructure, interior etc modelling - but what else should I get to go with it?

Phaser seems an obvious choice as my Multisurf won't give heeled stability? It has a new name now I think...? (get no response when looking at proteusengineering.com.....)

Rhinoffsets might be handy too - I take it that Rhino won't produce a table of offsets on its own, though from reading the reviews of Rhonoffsets it seems it will only produce a dxf file - not a word or excell file....

Multisurf produces a set of lines no problem - will Rhino do this too - or will I need another plug-in for that?

Any suggestions / advice would be greatly appreciated....

[Guest]

HI

Rhino has nothing compared to multisurf or Prosurf or prolines or maxsurf, or many other packages in the market for hull shape, most of them gives you plots, automatic lines plan generation (Buttocks, waterlines diagonals etc..), Rhino its a great tool wich i use a lot, but for hull shape i wont waste my time becouse it doesn't have the apropiate interface for hull design, yes rhino can do anyshape, and fair, but again its not set for that use, it has come out with great set of tools or plug ins like phaser for stability and rhinostatics or rhinoffsets wich are great tools and now albacore research came out with expander which is written for rhino with the capabilities or with the technology of shipcam for flatten and development of plates including double curvature wnich make rhino sucha n affordable software capable to creat fair developments of plates, but again its not a hull fairing software dont waste your time making rhino work for that, i will think that only if you have time and you are willing to live with it, then its ok i guess, but i won't recomended maybe becouse i started using software for hull fairing before jumping to rhino, now i use prosurf to model my hull and then export to rhino and finish the model there.

so i hope this help, and gives you an idea of the use of rhino, great program by the way, it gives some troubles in v3, but i havent had much problem or problem at all, i guess becouse i just use it for what i really need, rendering by bmrt works great slow but...free, and besides rendering its not that important for me.

[duluthboats]

Hi Will,

It would be my luck that Proteus is out of operation. But I’m guessing there site is down temporarily. The Rhino plug in from them is called Phaser; they give you Slicer for free. I wish I could give you a review but I haven’t used it enough. They do have a 30 day full function demo.

Gary :D

[Willallison]

Guest: Thanks for the advice. As you suggest, I'm not planning on using Rhino to model my hulls. Just for the superstructure, cabins, bulkheads etc. My hull fairing program only gives limited hydrostatics - and only upright stability data, so I'm looking for plug-ins to provide this and any other info I might need. Expander sounds useful - plate flattening is, I would think, a necessity for any metal, ply, or even flat-panel composite work.

Gary: I suspect you're right about Proteus....or at least I hope you are - I've been unable to access their site for 2 days now....
I tried the demo (I think of Phaser) some time ago. It worked ok on a monohull model I imported to Rhino's demo, but not on a multihull (gave a very odd displacement....) That may be something I did rather than the program. What do you use for producing a 'set of lines'?

[duluthboats]

... SLICER: This is a simple, yet extremely useful utility for cutting stations, buttocks, waterlines, diagonals, inclines, and cants through your Rhino model.

It comes free with Phaser. What can I say it works and I can afford it.

Gary :D

[Willallison]

Can you export the lines from Slicer back into Rhino (or into AutoCAD) to produce a profesional qulaity document?
This isn't really a necessity for me as I can already do this with my ohter programs, but it's always nice to have alternatives...

[duluthboats]

Will,

When you use Slicer it all happens on the Rhino screen, so whatever you can export from Rhino, which is .dxf for AC. It also lets you customize the spread sheets and the drawings to show your firms name. The spread sheets can be in Excell.

Gary :D

[ClarkT]

G

[ClarkT]

I could not disagree more with 'Guest' and his assessment of Rhino. I've used MaxSurf for years, until I got Rhino and RhinoMarine (Phasar). I've not used MaxSurf since. I still keep it around in case I need to do damaged stability analysis, but otherwise Rhino+RhinoMarine has rendered it useless. Vancanti's Prolines is a specail case, I'm not comparing Rhino to it, it seems like Prolines has some really neat special features, though Rhino is likely to have extensions developed that will give it these sort of capabilities.

Rhino has a better GUI, better surface analysis tools, better rendering, better surface trimming tools, and no limit to the number of surfaces. RhinoMarine gives fast and accurate stability data, and Slicer cuts stations, waterplanes, buttocks, and diagonals, assigns them to separate layers, and eases export to .dxf or .dwg. Expander makes hull plate expansion or laminate template expansion easy.

I'm surprised I don't see more Rhinovangelists around here seeking converts. Anyone use Rhino+RhinoMarine and does not think it is great??

[duluthboats]

"Rhinovangelists " I like that. :D

[Willallison]

ClakT:
Whats's GUI?:?:
I note that you refer to Phaser as RhinoMarine.......Gary and I have been trying access Proetus via their website (www.proteusengineering.com ) for several days now, without success....given the name change, do you know of abother way of contacting them?

[Doug Carlson]

GUI = graphical user interface

[Guest]

proteus site is working

don't forget expander plug in form albacore research for development of plates

[Guest]

for damage stabilit there is a spreadsheet that was written by a naval architect for stability and damage stability calculations the only set back "if you can call it like that" is that there is no way to input your model directly into the spreadsheet, you basicly have to model the vessel with the spreadsheet which is not a big deal.

this is the website

http://www.hyss.net/Hyss/Intro.html

good luck

[Willallison]

Thanks - you're right...they've just come back online.
So, I've settled on:
Rhino
Phaser
Expander

Now the question is (given I live in Australia) where's the best place for me to buy it all ?!?
Proetus have the RhinoMarine bundle (Rhino + Phaser + Slicer) for USD $250 (student price) plus Expander @ $195......

I'd like to by in Oz if I can, but I guess it doesn't really matter.....

[duluthboats]

That’s a very good deal. Are there any limitations on the student license? I paid almost double just for Phaser. But then I’m not a student, just an amateur. :eek:

Gary :D

[Tad]

Will;

Rhino have a bunch of resellers in Aust, I don't know where you're at. But they would probably not deal with Phaser/Slicer.

Rhino is an incredebly powerfull surfacing tool, but as a renderer it leaves much to be desired. And student pricing makes it almost silly not to have it.

Take care, Tad

[Willallison]

Gary - I can find little on the Rhino site about details of the student license other than -

Same as commercial software.

Proof of status as student, faculty, or educational institution required with order.


Tad - Thanks for the input Tad - would you suggest that I should also have Flamingo or similar for rendering? Maybe something I could do without for a while and buy further down the track...?
What software do you use for your hull surfacing / general CAD / rendering?

[Tad]

Will;

You can defiantly get by with standard Rhino for a long time. Get Flamingo someday. First learn how to get the job done, then worry about pretty pictures. Not many clients are interested in paying you to produce pretty pictures, (though some will be) most just want the drawings done so the builder can crank out their boat. Problem is, the clients are really impressed by the pretty pictures, so as soon as you make some money (when is that?), hire someone good to do some nice artwork of your designs.

Meanwhile concentrate on designing great boats.

I still use Multisurf for original hull creation, it is the answer to getting a fair surface quickly. But I get out of it as quickly as possible. I take the dxf mesh into Rhino to build a 3D model. But much more often take a 2D standard lines drawing into AutoCAD and get to work. Simple drafting is not too sexy, but it works and the builders are happy. I'm starting to do some hard chine developable surface metal hulls so I guess I'm going to learn about drawing metal parts in Rhino, oh boy.

Take care, Tad

[terhohalme]

Willallison: You got wrong results with Phaser propably because the directions of some or all surfaces were pointing inside. Check the surfaces and change their direction with Rhinos direction command, then adjust meshes in Phaser and voila! Check also if the hull model is half or full. LCB can be odd, if you dont have bigger x-number at bow than stern (bow to right!).

Rhino + Phaser (+Slicer) is an extremely good package as its price. There is no need for fairing (like special programs require you to use), if you use minimum amount of control points on the hull surfaces (3...6 per axis).

Terho

[Willallison]

It was some time ago that I tried the multihull displacement etc. I'm sure that I got all the surfcae directions correct (eventually!). The model would have been full (not 1/2) and bow would have been to the right.
Having said all that, I'm sure that it was operator error as opposed to a glitch in the program - I'm not renowned for my computer skills!:D

[Willallison]

Now I'm a little (more:p ) confused.
Rhino seems to offer two possibilities for 'flattening' developable surfaces - FlattenSRF & UnrollSRF.
If either do what I think they do, then what is the need for the Expander plug-in?

[duluthboats]

Expander is not for me but if you do metal boats that have plates that are not developable, Expander will still flatten them. It allows you a degree of control on the distortion. I saw the demo at IBEX, it was cool but not for me, plywood doesn’t stretch.

Gary :D

[Willallison]

hmm...
so basically what you're saying is that unless I plan on developing undevelopable plates (:!: ) I won't need it...?

[duluthboats]

Rhino will unroll developable panels. If you have a panel with a compound curve or distortion, you need something else. High end engineering software will let you specify material, grain direction, and other things to help determine what the flat shape will look like. The amount of control Expander gives you, I’m not sure.

The material doesn’t have to be metal. You might want to know the shape of pieces of fabric for a layup. It could be a very useful tool on the production end.

I sure hope someone else jumps in, because I’m a little over my head here.

Gary :D

[Willallison]

Don't worry Gary - once it gets more than ankle deep, we're out of my depth!!:D

[Willallison]

Well - it's done
And I have to compliment Proteus on their extraordinary service - I ordered the software on the afternoon of the 11th and it arrived at 0930 this morning, the 15th......4 days with a weekend in the middle - not bad given that I live 1/2 a world away!!

.....now if only I could learn how to use it that quickly....;)

[duluthboats]

:cool: :D :D :D :D

[ClarkT]

I've been using Expander a little, here is what I can tell you about the control.

You can expand a surface (or slice of a surface), and Expander will analyse it for you, and let you know how much stretch (or compression) was required to expand your non-developable surface. If you are working with steel or aluminum, you can check against your allowable strain for that material. On the other hand, if you are laminating FRP, you can check the Expander data against what you know about a given materials ability to bias and fold. From that you can do a pretty slick job of designing a laminate schedule, and you might even make your laminators very happy by making their life so much easier.

-Clark the Rhinovangelist.

[Willallison]

Thanks Clark,
I've bought the basic RhinoMarine bundle (no expander). Sounds like something very useful to look at a little further down the track - once I've come to terms with what I've got already!:D

[VasGi]

I agree with you about rhino anf phaser
I use them too with very good results although rhino3 hal a lot of bugs(v2 was way more stable) but what about damage stability
I tried to export files from rhino in gf (ghs) format for autohydro but seems to have problems
neither deadweight nor autohydro(modemaker) seem to read them well so I think rhino is the prob
special prob is at the sensitive area of bullbus bow where seperate slices of bulb and stem keep joining with unwanted lines messing up the bow profile
any suggestions on extracting properly a hull (polysurface) on rhino3

[CGN]

This problem is most of the time is related to the actual bad translation of GHS from Rhino, I really don't bother trying to export it directly I use other software for that, but there is other reasons that makes your ghs fail, you have to make sure that your surfaces are nicely joined, and make sure that you have no bad surfaces and check the direction of them if all this is right then should work "most of the time", but I will buy the GHSview software is cheap and you can repair the models coming out of rhino, there is other applications that can do that but this one is fairly cheap and do the job.

[VasGi]

the hull is made by a simple loft
I dont know if the deck creates the problem
or mirror.
by the way how do you change the direction of the isocurves (station slices)?

[CGN]

There is no way to change the direction of the isocurves once you save or export as a GHS, the only check you can do is the direction of your surfaces, so is really going to happen, your isocurves or sections some of them will be inverted, so again you must repair the GHS file out of Rhino, my best recommendation will be to get GHSview, is cheap and like I said you can "repair" the GHS file, you can download it form their website and use it for 30 days that will give you the chance to see if it really can repair your model the way you wanted.


Let us no how it goes

[VasGi]

thank you I ll do that.
I might have solved the problem by working with half hull
create a line in the middle with dupedge end then straight extend of the surface in the transverse axis. its bot the best solution for designing lines but for hydrostatics it does the job done.
by the way have you worked with any good propeller design program e.g. propcad

[CGN]

No, the propeller manufacturer take care of that, is really painfull, and that is something that i really don't need to do, propcad is too expensive and the only way i can truly make use of something like that is if i'm actually building propellers.

glad that you are getting closed to find a soution to your problem, there is a new plug in from deadwight you mention something about it, but if you haven't seen it the plug in is to save ghs from Rhino with some repairing of the file, is on the rhino website or the deadweight.

good luck

[Willallison]

I'm Baaack!! :D
Currently, I'm only using Rhino as a means of getting my stability etc data - ie, I import a hull as an IGES model and run it through Phaser.
Now I want to pull out a table of Offsets - anyone got any experience with RhinOffsets? Is this the only option? And as I only have an IGES surfaces model of the hull, how easy is it to get offsets for stuff like chines, sheer etc?

[duluthboats]

You can get the demo here. http://www.basline.com/RhinOffsets.asp I have'nt tried it yet. E-mail Cliff he has posted here a few times.

Gary :D

[Willallison]

You can get the demo here. http://www.basline.com/RhinOffsets.asp I have'nt tried it yet. E-mail Cliff he has posted here a few times.

Gary :D

yeah, thanks Gary - I'll download the demo tionight. I was really just wondering how easy it is to get the numbers if the hull wasn't produced in Rhino in the 1st place...

[Thunderhead19]

I like Rhino, but I've been reluctant to use the (unroll developable surface) command. The availability of plate development plug-ins makes me think there is something deficint with it. If I take into account the plate thickness, Is there any reason not to use it?

[CGN]

no, there is nothing "wrong", the plug-in (Expander) will help you develop double curvature surfaces, there is many users using the regular expansion settings of rhino, but remember just developable surfaces only.

[b_safa]

<Message deleted - we can not allow discussion of pirated software on this forum.>

[DGreenwood]

I'm sure HydroComp Inc will be just delighted to hear this. I guess you are unaware that you are advertising illegal goods?

[rdickins]

I here a lot of good things about Rhino but everyone seems to use it in conjunction with something else. What are the limits of Rhino? Can I design interior structure with it? Can I do piping layouts? What does Rhino do well what does it not do well?

[CGN]

As many other software you are probably able to do anything on rhino it all depended on the user, but.....I don't think is the best to handle piping layouts, or just plain 2D CAD, Rhino does well surfacing, one of the best on the market, it does well translation of many files, it woks fine with most MCAD software's, and handles very good information for milling and CNC cutting, is not a code writer, but you can produce information that can be easy for any CAM software to read, and avoid painful translations, limits?, 2D drafting, maybe size of models....some don't like the way it handles polygons, but that is mostly people that uses rhino for animations and artistic renderings, for me works fine, but the use is different, now related to the marine area, requires a plug in for hydrostatics, and a plug in for plate development, the plate development built in is good just for developable surfaces (up to V2), and requires a plug in for rendering, IMO this are not really big disadvantages it gives me the chance to choose what I need, I don't really like the render engine of flamingo, for the price I opted for carrara pro v4, it cost me less than flamingo and it does better IMO.

[Cian Groves]

Rhino primarily is a free form 3d modeler. So if you need to model something in 3d be it a hull, super structure, interior of a vessel, piping etc it is prefect. It will also make 2d drawings of these 3d model so you can do the detailing. In v4 (still in development) they are bringing some mcad & 2d detailing options into the program, things like history, linetypes, better printing capability.

For me I do my modelling in Rhino, then make 2d drawings and take it across to AutoCad for detailing. I also have Rhinomarine for assisting in stability reports, Expander for developing double compounding plate & Flamingo for rendering (there are a couple of other WIP render plugins that look very impressive - maxwell & brazil, vray to come later this year). A big bonus is that marine software companies see the potential of Rhino and are developing plugins of their programs that will work within rhino.

Rhino for me is excellent, it has a great user interface & a price that is very reasonable.
Best bet to see if it will do what you want is download the evaluation version.

Cheers,
Cian

[archnav.de]

Hi Chain,

nice to hear from you again. To keep our gallery: CAD-Blocks and Drawings http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showgallery.php/cat/3054 running, we need some Rhino-Models out of your store. Please help.

Cheers

Bernd