masalai's model movie

[masalai]

Hi folks,
<edit> Shortest video (not small - 13.4MB) is posted here http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=9889
Time for revenge and to criticise the criticizer. I have 3 QT videos I made with a Nikon coolpix S3 pocket mini camera, held by wobbly hands. Camera is autofocus - sometimes.

I taped a gps to the roof which read max speed 4.2knots, 2.3knot moving average for 250 metres over 10 minutes in the water with some stop time (didn't think to record moving time).

I don't know how to cut out the rubbish where a) I nearly slipped over several times with waving hands. b) I nearly fell in the water whilst getting up from doing a low shot of under the bridge-deck c) could not turn the camera off. bloody small buttons.

I will attempt to post the smallest one. If someone would like to fix the files, PM me and I will endeavour to send them directly to your own email address.

the file names are
DSCN1538.mov of 49.8MB
DSCN1539.mov of 13.4MB
DSCN1540.mov of 41.5MB

Regards

[Guest625101138]

Brian
The video files are all too big for Boatdesign. 10Mb is the limit.

Set up a YouTube or Google Video account and post there. You can also get free or low cost converters that will reduce the file size.

Also the majority of email servers limit files below 10Mb so there will not be too many who you can email the files to.

What type of GPS were you using? You can download the track from most of them. This will give you a better idea of performance.

If it is 10kg it must be sitting below the waterline. Have you got some photos of it in the water.

If you give me the prop measurements I can do some back calculation.

What voltage and current were you operating at?

Rick W.

[masalai]

Well Rick, thanks for the info. It seems that smaller file was accepted and is in my gallery now. I can download 800 plus MB but it takes about 8 hours on my snail-mail paced broadband (that is my bigest so far). I haven't tried the other way beyond about 20MB.

The video files give 640 x 480 at 30 fps. when I play them.

I need to edit the files first, no way for me yet. (also no great interest)

It appears that boat-net has some VERY powerful automated systems for images etc. I am most appreciative of the excellence in online resources.

I would not mind making donations every now and then, but I will NOT give creditcard info online EVER.

GPS is a garmin gps60 small monochrome hand-held.

model weight is pushing the waterline, but not by much. The bows are about right but the stern should be half way up that flat extension/step thingy. The Chamberlin idea was to pivot loading so the stern changed very little and as fuel and other things were added, the bows settled to the design WL. Model is a bit in reverse of that.

I may have to get some experienced advice before I start to work on next phase/stage. I have to specify internal rayout and things to go in by priority/need down to likes "if", so weights can be calculated then re do below waterline to reflect this and build weights.

I am sort of happy with concept, now to fix the design criteria and accept those specifications ready to present to a NA/NE for design finishing ready for builders.

2 x 40mm dia screws powered by "Drake Horse" Speed 600 series from 3600mha x 6 7.2V NiMH batteries - reading straight from the motors & battery pack. Don't have current info but it is heaps! Both rotate in the same direction. Nearly forgot, the props were sucking quite a bit of air. I will try some "bogey" fix then have another speed trial.

I do not have the download software on linux yet for the gps, a low priority to-do at the present.

[Guest625101138]

Brian
It is very nice. I like it. Surprisingly good since it is overloaded. A pity you could not keep to scale displacement.

Scale speed is 13kts and waves well developed as you would expect. Michlet can provide wave patterns and these are always useful to verify that it is close to reality.

This boat should do better with small bulbs in the bow as there is a lot of water being lifted.

You could also taper the flat aft sections over the rudders to canoe shapes as well because there is energy going to waste in the turbulence off the square stern.

You can buy Multimeters from Tandy that go up to 10A. They cost AUD16. You could mount this and take a reading is it passes by. I expect with a little effort you could calculate hull resistance to within 10% from this model.

Rick W.

[masalai]

Thank you Rick, can the bow be fixed a bit better without bulbs? That stern is not working as well as the Chamberlin C10 (real size images) in my gallery.

Have a look at the pencil lines on the closeup from under the stern. I was thinking of extending the main underwater section to there and make it a lot finer and giving a little more volume/load capacity to the whole hull.

that flat section then is useful to smooth the exiting waters for a transom mounted Levi surface full cavitating screw (xrudi has a members gallery here and operates the Levi base in Penang) above it and rising from the last vertical bit will be the hull transom to carry the Levi mounting arrangement.

I am at the present keen on the levi/surface screws because of the bigger wheel, potentially improved efficiencies, am I reading **** from external sources, or on the better track?

I tend to write very forcefully, it's how I think. I am still very open to change in a soundly reasoned presentation. I thought I could maximise hull volume with a squarer shape (in hull section) and blunt ends. Probably have to accept finer entry and exit but not very much I hope? If it has to be done it has to be done. It is a compromise between shallow draft capability and narrow efficient hulls and able to carry two tonnes of fuel for range at 12 to 15 knots flat seas. (desire at least 2000miles, and would call absolutely MAGIC - 3000 miles, as a guess unattainable?) Is that asking too much. I like the Chamberlin efficiency challenge at bottom of page http://www.icecat.com.au/trial.htm

[Guest625101138]

There are other options to the bulb but I think the bulb would suit your speed range. It would not need to be very big. The nose would not need to extend beyond the overhang of the bow.

You have a baseline now so you can make one change at a time and see what benefit you get.

I would change the stern first as it is generating a lot of turbulance. The pencil line shows what I was thinking of. I would try to ensure the rudder is covered.

The stern in front of the prop does not have as much taper as Godzilla produced.

I have only played with human powered surface drives. These are much less efficient than a good prop. Surface drives gain a real advantage at speeds where apendage drag is significant. I have not seen any data showing that they get better than 70% efficiency. With the right prop you should expect much better efficiency than this and your pnly appendage is the rudder, which could be smaller than you have. In any case it will not offer a lot of drag at 13kts. I can do calcs on it if you want.

From an efficiency point of view you should aim to fit the largest diameter prop you can and keep the prop shaft horizontal. I have attached a JavaProp screen dump for a 550mm prop showing 82% efficiency for the original Godzilla hull at 14kts. You could go to a smaller diameter and shroud the prop to keep efficiency up. This might end up with a good result.

Power at the prop shaft is 16kW for each motor. If you do not oversive then you might achieve this with 18kW at each motor. Twin Kubotas should produce this for 11l/hr combined. So you use less than 1l/nm!!! This has no allowance for windage or sea conditions. It seems the 2.5l/nm for the 36hr trial should be achievable.

The model looked nice. With a bit of work I think you could get a really efficient boat.

Rick W.

[masalai]

Thanks a lot rick. You may be a bit ahead of me. Let me catch up a little and get my act together. That stern treatment was maintaining the "vertical" fin shape to the transom. Eliminating the existing rudder & screw.

I would look for a bigger screw, Levi Surface Drive 170 - 150, ( http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/2458/ppuser/1490 ) are all for converted local Malaysian boats that weigh about 1.5 or so tonnes I think, for connection to 50hp plus diesel truck engines.

[Guest625101138]

Like I said the best efficiency I have seen from a surface drive is around 70%. The Malaysian boats probably use them for their simplicity and low draft.

The current set up with your cat is ideal for a standard prop. There is no support strut required and the prop shaft can be aligned horizontal.

If you are keen to try the surface drive why not give it a go on the model? I think you would find it hard to match the current set up.

Rick W.

[masalai]

Thank you Rick, Sometimes I am a bit thick. I didn't quite grasp what you were getting at before.

[Frosty]

Hi Masalai

Regarding your Pm here is a picture of one of my drives.

[masalai]

You're happy with that? - sidewinder? What weight does it push? Where is the thrust bearing?

[Frosty]

Its not a Levi Its my own design. The hull holds everything. I don't need exhaust injection to lighten the engine load.

The thrust bearing is in the gearbox ZF 630 down 8 degree 2.5:1

The boat is 14 tons cruise KTS 17 --- 3400 RPM

23kts 4000 but can go to 4200 Never given it max.

Lot of prop slip there could do with 26inch Dia props instead of 24

Pictures of full hull in slings posted in shafts thru the transom.

Let me know if you cant find it.

[masalai]

Thanks very much frosty

[masalai]

Thank you again very much Frosty. I read , I saw, I understood.

Did you have to add those little rails parallel to the centreline of the hulls, either side, but further out than the line of of the screw tips?

[Frosty]

I dont know what you mean by that. Theres nothing stick out after the hull transom, exept a 1inch vacuum break which I had just fitted before the photo.

According to the Seafury site this is imperative. It did nothing for me.

I sometimes think that there is a lot of bull crap about Surface props to keep people from building something that looks so simple,---it is!! Its the prop thats different,--all you gotta do is get the right prop, place it and turn it.

[masalai]

Sorry Frosty I was cooking dinner for mum. In the image of the hull with the screw removed at the curve between bottom and side underwater.?? Along the side of the hull.

[masalai]

What is "the vacuum break"? something to stop the propellor from sucking itself off?

[masalai]

Hi Danish, Forever cheekey, only way to ask your views? Have you seen the video & images? Location is in my first post in this thread.

[yipster]

eh... "scale" in the search button returns too many threads
"scale calculation" 350 reply's to the seaworthines thread, ough
you may got this allready but here in short what i'm reading
Ranchi Otto recently also explained it very well, but where....
its of great use in design and correct me if i'm wrong here plz

relationship between scaled model and full size

ofcourse linear dimensions only use the scale
areas be reduced by the square root of the scale
volumes and weights be reduced by the cube

all velocity's be scaled by the square root of scaling factor

[masalai]

Yipster,
In that case my 4.2knots on the model test equals?
square root of 10 = 3.16 approx so does that convert to 13.28knots?

[yipster]

witch i think is an admirable velocity
what size is model the model again?

[masalai]

1.2m length w/l for a 12m full size length Water Line

[masalai]

This is also one of the boats that inspired my project. Engines too big, and to survey which is above my needs. It has been driven to Vanuatu (from Brisbane) and is now back home & for sale!

http://www.sunshineboatsales.com.au/ed.php?de=31696&range=power_lge

Schionning design 60 pax charter ferry at A$890,000.00 and 3L/nm @ 18knots. max 25knots is nice.

[yipster]

you do away with displacement boats sometimes anoying slow speed
that Schionning is 3.5 meter longer thus faster, yours can still be tuned a bit
its what you want, 50 knots is nice too, but hey

[masalai]

Thanks Yipster, Prime factor is sub 1L/nm at around 12 to 15knots cruise in flat seas calm winds, with 20knots max is enough if that need to run arises.

[Frosty]

Masalai if your designing a boat from scratch your very brave. Even big boat manufacturers hate this bit. A lot of money can be wasted especially with high speed hulls. Designing a new displacement is relatively easy and you will get it to work somehow. Semi displacement or planing is a different thing.

In catamaran form it twice as difficult.

My semi displacement cat is easy at 17KTS, wake as straight as an arrow and I can walk away from the helm. At 23 she is a two hands on the wheel job . Like driving a go cart down an icy road. Basically I am exeeding the hulls speed. My only way over this is hydrofoils, or get the bows up somewhow, but that tomorrows job.

[masalai]

Yes frosty, I only look stupid? I intend to make sure I have all the information to give a NA/NE to draw what I want up and have it built. Nothing off-the-shelf met all my needs/wants - some wants need pruning, that's the process I'm following and I need visual and physical means to fully understand things I technically don't. Particularly the engineering side - strengths in material and construction methods relative to the marine design processes.

My reliance on this forum is considerable, as I need enough information to identify new or unusual aspects like, is it feasible to mount your system with the thrust bearing giving the load to the transom & other internal bracing so the engine & gearbox can be mounted further forward, linked by shaft & 2 CV joints, to the surface-drive device assembly. This would, for one, make engine replacement easy in the "backwoods" where alignment skills are non-existent, and put weight nearer midships.

[Frosty]

Your boat looks to have a very narrow rear end meaning your engines will be up under someones bed. Most displacements are like that. Mine are not.

My prop is approx 16 inches off the transom but the shaft is 4 feet and is 21/2 inch this gives me comfort in that the 14 inches is not flapping about. Although the stern tube /log covers 12 inches of it with an extra long Cutlass bearing. If you put a thrust at the transom where is your stiffness, unless its supported externally, then your back to parasitic drag.

My stern tube / log also travels into the boat by another 8 inches and through a dummy transom. This gives the whole thing strength and would not be damaged by the boat settling on them if I wanted to beach.

[masalai]

Yes Frosty, I meant near where the shaft ends (inside) so I guess shaft would be somewhere in the vicinity of 4 plus feet long with a lengthy stern tube?, engine is midships mostly down in the "narrow bit" - I have been talking of the probability of widening to accommodate wider engines. Nani 5 cylinder will fit narrow many others won't.

If there were bulkheads to mount the forward end and take the load of the thrust???? Me no savvy, I am not that engineering genius, that you seem to be.

I am trying to illustrate the stern area so I can have an image available for some to assess, decry as ****, or suggest alternatives.

Only 2 beds forward - across bridgedeck, aft is shower, then engine room.... else hammock in "verandah" aft.

[Frosty]

But your sterns are narrowing to almost nothing and the bottom also comes up to meet the water line? almost canoe stern? This config may work with the very very long Thai boats called 'long tails'. These shaft are 10 feet plus.

Im not one of these guys that produce stuff with a computer, I kneel down and look at it with my head cocked and one eye open and then think about for a week.

[masalai]

That square bit above the "canoe stern" is not above w/l. W/L comes up 4 of its 6 inch height. The "step area will be turned into the vertical section like where your shaft comes out. On the current model that will be near the bottom edge of that square "step" - the stern face. Or else that whole section will be lowered to sit the whole lot lower.

Does that make sense? I am pencil or model myself. You still want some info on rotary wing pilot training?

[Frosty]

As I have been told a hundred times Surface props are for planing hulls.

Yes thats true but semi displacement can use them but the rear end must be more like a planing hull. The water must come clean off the hull and should be stable.

Any one can design a hull but you will come up to brick wall when it comes to surface drives.

Every manufacturer will tell you their system will work and then when you ask them for help they will say it was'nt correct for the boat.

If it does'nt work you are out on your own. If that happens you had better know what you will do with that.

You are putting a system onto an unknown boat. No one knows any answers.

[masalai]

In the Chamberlin C10 - see my gallery but no pics of that action, the water does come out clean but showed turbulence from the screw underneath else should be OK? as is flat like after a planning hull transom over 9 or so knots.

I am aware it must be smooth but is a little turbulence allowed from the canoe shape ending vertically? or a small vertical trim tab for auto-pilot use?

Lots of more work on models else go as was, deep screw!

[Frosty]

To be honest with you a surface drive is sexy, however most people just dont understand them. They are amazing in so much as they are vibration free, this has to be experienced to be believed.

However even if you can make them work the props are expensive and makes experimentation limited. Your more likely to sell it being conventional.

Mine is wonderfully economical at 17 she uses 35 liters per hour total.

But needs 2 engines all the time and under 15 drops off the plane, I have nothing between 7 and 17.

One engine can give me 5 knots at tick over 800 RPM.

Do you think the footprint of the levi will go on your transom.

[masalai]

Or something like yours or whatever. I want to look at all options before finally committing on build. Thanks again Frosty. Rotary wing?

[Frosty]

If I were you and you wanted surface I would make the props like mine and then not do a big tunnel rudder I would make two small blade types inside of the drives infront of the prop, but to the side. The rudders are huge and to be honest do nothing in a marina. They are also very heavy. There is no way you can manouver with one engine, but can do what you want with 2.

Look at the back of the Atlantic Challenger if you can find anything. This was a Sony design too.

The Sony design is agricultural, heavy and sorry to say ugly unless you can conceal it under a swim platform etc. You also dont need that exhaust stuff.

[masalai]

Ok point heeded, I had thought of the rudder move already. Geniuses think alike? I was trying to be "diplomatic" in open thread. Yes the weight was a bit scary.

I have to get drawing & cooking. Thanks.

[yipster]

although small water rimples the model cuts them with ease in your movie posted in the gallery a while ago
i'm curious to see some more waves but make sure you helper isnt trowing that big rock to close to the model :D

by the way, everybody try'd "more" on google and checked books? many give a very good good read, here (http://books.google.com/books?id=SiCCMB6xQJoC&pg=PA78&dq=multihull&lr=&hl=nl&sig=6zLbQtTk_Xl0eUfhm7dp51bn03I#PPP1,M1) one for you ;-)

[masalai]

Thanks Yipster,
Read it in the local library some time ago, reading the waves & their ancient woven charts does not translate very well & misses a lot in the detail they used to be able to "read".

It has been raining here and therefore not suitable for further testing. I was going to wire up an amp-meter and place the gps next to it. These sets of data will be recorded with the digital camera also taped/affixed to the roofless test boat.

Another factor is my 1996 ford laser 4 door has had a major electronic heart attack. Starts sometimes as normal but quickly develops massive problems by missing and loss of all useable power. Bugger!! everyone (mechanics & service centres) seems to be away enjoying their Xmas break. Such is life? :(

The waves were created by an 6m model of a battleship weighing some 400kg

[Frosty]

Mas check all the underbonnet engine management conections.

If a sensor is malfunctioning by a loose contact its possible the engine is choking thinking it is cold.

Just undo spray WD and then re do all plugs you can see several times.

May work!!! If not it has to be plugged in.

[masalai]

Its one of those abortions, covered in "human protective plastic", cant even get to the spark plugs & the distributor is BOLTED not spring clips any more???????

I suspected shorts but all wiring seemed connected OK, some (spark-plug) leads should be replaced as 11 years unchanged, but only 60,000km (mum's car), & look quite grotty.

Fckin modern crap, wires from everything, then disappear into looms & come out somewhere???? & do what, Yes I figered some smartass computer stuff as mandatory.


Image of model warship is on "random pictures", along with a view from my office at home.

[yipster]

bugger, had car computer problems too, many mechanics had a look, changed a lot, till one leaned over a little black box richt up front next to the latch that had a loose earth

[masalai]

Yipster, did I miss something? was that quote to me?

"...by the way, everybody try'd "more" on google and checked books?..."

To septics & other friends,
"I want you gone" a song to "W" by Laura Love also would be pleased with the departure or that insult to human intelligence. She quotes him inferring he wants "...to interview all the Alligators who made all the allegations about him..."

We got rid of our idjit, now your turn fellows of USA....

Prosperous new year to you all

[masalai]

I have now installed both Delftship & freeship using wine & drinking some too. It remains to be seen if they work & I can upload a file from this net (lots of demos' included I will wait for something relevant to "masalais model".... No hurry as I am still in the spirit of merriment.

Linux can do almost everything, I can & enjoy doing most of the rest... :D :D :P :P

[masalai]

Success, They both work (DelftShip & FreeShip) - what is the difference?

I have uploaded "green lantern" which loads & is nice to play with (don't dare save changes on that), & thanks to Rick Willoughby, who sent me a base model of my project to play with and learn the ropes.

This windy and wet weather is the perfect opportunity to play on the computer & learn to use the ....Ship software.

Then with boldness and a better understanding should attempt to start from scratch. Time to RTFM. Thanks All, Seasons best wishes!

Is there any other manuals (apart from the included pdf) that will give a dummy like me step by step procedures to set up from scratch my cat design
1. . underwater hull lines as a separate item, finishing about 10cm (4") above loaded waterline and with a lip outwards by about 5cm (2")
2. . the bridgedeck will be another item
3. . the outer hulls another item.
4. . all can be brought together and "glued" in position not to be removed but can still be added to & manipulated??????

How do I start a new drawing (set up to do the above - if not in the pdf manual). Back to reading.......

[Frosty]

Geeez Mas your frightening me. Ok Im not a computer guy and I have'nt a clue about programmes N stuff but trying to evaluate a boats performance for the reason of intending to build same?----

Did I read your right when you mentioned put the bridge on later?

When I did my project I had no intention of buying new. I looked around for some kanckered half sunk cat with no engines and broken mast . I could see her in my minds eye but in reality she did not exist.

I bought new. As I have mentioned before when buying new there would be no doubt I had a boat!! no matter what cock ups I did to it if I was carefull I could return the boat to original or almost and start again, even follow the manufacturers awfull V drive system ( I hate V drives).

The financial involvement is considerable and will be more than you could possibly imagine.

My wife valued the boat by adding up the credit card accounts. This included hotels, air travel, car hire and cash advances whilst living in Australia trying to get it into the water and out of a country thats does not know that its not fare to charge GST to non nationals that are buying stuff to leave with.
This method of accounting brought the figure to an unfair number compared to mine which was adding up the bills from the marine chandler. As you can imagine we have a very very different figure. Im still not sure today who is right

I drivel--- I know someone building a power cat here in Langkawi He keeps the location secret and all information close to his chest. I have told him that building your own design is very risky. I don't think it is admiration he is afraid of.

Even I, the might frosty would curl up into the fetal position sucking my thumb asking for mummy just thinking about it.

[masalai]

That name you forgot - "Richard Cranium" by any chance?

All I am going to do, is to be satisfied that I can give specifications for a "competent designer" to get paid to draw it up, with appropriate engineering & pay some good builder who would like a couple of quid to complete his project.... Have a couple in mind who are good builders.

This pontificating prick has got to find something to do while he cannot progress as quickly as he would like because of other commitments & persuading lady-love to accept the prospect of living afloat.

[Frosty]

What???? you have yet to get the wife involved??? Oh man. This takes years. This is an art --a skill ,It needs the touch of a ginacologist with cold hands.

You didnt tell me this!!!!
This will take aprox 2 -3 years, in that time she must never be sick or even feel ill. She must never be allowed to see a wave bigger than herself.

Never ever shout at her even if the wind is howling and she is at the back of the boat and you just want to thank her for the tea.

For 3 years you must never be further away than 5 miles from a supermarket and say things like yum--yum when you get Spam sanwiches or some disgusting vegimite. Tell her you like powdered mashed potatoes and buy her a book on microwave cooking.

When she repeatedly fails to throw a line 6 feet, you must say well done that was a hard throw, but you did well,--- as the boat drifts out of the dock and you have to abort the docking, loosing three fenders she had just tied on.

Not easy.

I got mine pretty well trained up now 14 years she has been at it. I wait on the bridge till she has all the lines and fenders out. When she is ready I go in.

[masalai]

Your concerns and good intentions are duly noted, Then, totally ignored in good grace. Thanks Frosty. - for your interest in my wellbeing.

The short answer, I'm going, your choice.......

[Frosty]

Ah ,--I can see clearly now,--- I couldnt go any where without mine. I wouldnt have the enthusiasm to go out for a day trip.

I would without doubt sell the boat and go home.

[masalai]

Don't believe all publik statements on matters of the heart that this fool makes. I consider matters of the heart are personal.

[masalai]

What a bummer, reasonably fine (no rain) day and forgot transmitter, battery flat. Got that sort of fixed, using 12v instead of 7.2 .... . and initially 2.6knots using 3amps on one engine with a dieing/flat battery. fitted a borrowed 12v battery with one engine monitored for 3.6knots using 3.9 amps then rewired to measure both engines amps drawn still 3.9-4 amps and no speed change. - gave a burst at full power but gps moved & could not read data but used 7.2 amps both engines.

boat was vastly overloaded at about 11kg - designed max is 7kg. will try a repeat but with better attachment of gps, amp meter & camera.

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

Damn - I built a Canadian Tire - Canadian Goose plastic dummy - for dumb ass birds attracted to same - I guess I affiliate with the stupid - with a soldered spring for a cutlass and a U shaped Kort - per Frosty - for a rudder...

Bloody gorgeous in its silver paint and severed neck that spewed river water from a windshield wiper pump...

WHAT...

Why is this all a mystery...

Frosty - you are my drunken hero - yet I have to assume you would not look so sexy in a Wonder Woman suit as my wife does - but the pints might just...

The pints will come but you will never be that sexy - unless the paper bags and Sharpie markers come out - I will just stick to my pints - if that is OK...

Burp...

I may be a bit drunk - I need professional opinion...

SH.

[masalai]

Demonstrating such eloquence and such prestidigitational skills, your status could not be determined as inibriated, however driving may not necessarily be deemed to be legal.

Soooo, post your significantly elegant swan, or goose if that is your bent, I am curious to see where you stuck Frosty's rudder/half Kort nozzle. It is my thread so be bold, I would appreciate the "cheer-up" as my lovely lady will be away for a couple of weeks. Part of that time in Thailand, I think at a seminar at a university in Udon Thani, presenting one of her doctoral papers on education.

[Frosty]

Wow Ive always wanted to be a Hero and save the world. Or even save a pint that balanced precariously dangerously at the end of the table. Either is equally as importent.

Mas,-- just because Sean is here you don't have to look up big words. It might impress me and the lads but Sean has heard them before and he knows what they mean.

Unfortunately I dont have a Wonder woman kit, which is a shame because I am stuck for something to wear for my speach tonight.--Well when I say speach I refer to the usual continuous burbling rubbish I usually talk about at the bar.

A half Kortz nozzle is generally refered to as a tunnel rudder. A kortz nozzle having a bit at the bottom could give lift or the opposite. But in any case parasitic drag.

[masalai]

F58p' the world, It will NEVER be at peace until......... But what is that goose you were talking about?

Bottle of wine, sweeter than thine?
couldn't handle that lasoo & bondage stuff
So Frosty "I know Kort". I hoped Sean
would be inspired and reciprocate you fluff.

[masalai]

A tunnel rudder (by Kort) near her udder
You are becoming madder und mudder
With her silver rope you will be screaming
"Help, Have mercy - I hope I am dreaming!"

[masalai]

This is another displacement cat with underwater lines similar to my desires, but hull-beam is too much (I like 700mm) & beam overall is too narrow (I like 7m)

http://www.mecat.com/indexpower.htm Look at the water flow coming off the "knuckle" - my model should do the same when scaled up to full size.

Yipster, yes I made another error -double that as per PM? actually centrelines for two hulls are 5.9m apart & Beam Overall is 7m. Water Line Length is 12.0m

[Frosty]

Have you considered a kit?

Theres a bloke called Gavin Meyer and he lives in Perth . He does kits N stuff. He did one for me but I did'nt like it. He might have something you like. All you need is a welder.

[masalai]

I have a reasonable preference to "glass" or composite, Thanks for the thought & suggestion.

[masalai]

Well, here is masalai's "secondgo.fbm" for delftship. Full of leaks & a bit messy, but you can get the general idea I am trying to achieve.

Next is to plug leaks??? How does one do that? Please some help (advice) else I will never learn. I would also appreciate a point as to how does one clean up some of the loose ends? Is it as simple as finding to what it is associated and delete that last point???? or just ignore it and it will go away :D

When I feel that is ready for the next part, set up a ney layer, double the hulls at the centreline distance apart? Then to do the underside of the bridgedeck, some shapeing for the roof line & then the outside sides. Is that the way to go and should each "major object" be a separate layer?

Thanks so far, I'm still having fun?? :D

[yipster]

good exercise but before going to drudging nudging the holes by bringing xyz coordinates of surfaces together in the small floating box, i would slope that sprayrail down and give the extending flat box stern some thought, rtfm and keep on it

[masalai]

Hi Yipster, I have been doing some nudging, sometimes apparently without effect??. By "sloping the spray-rail down" do you mean keep it horizontal (for & aft as well as P & S), so I can easily match with next part up? Making that box was something else!!!, The bottom is below W/L at 400mm for the waterline of 500mm, width is 700mm (beam W/L) and extends up to 800mm at spray-rail. Getting closure & extending edges was a lot of fiddling. Pencil & paper is a lot easier, erasure is a matter of erasing the offending bit, no-more-no-less & when stations are entered at 11.0, & 11.5 etc., they are drawn there, not elsewhere at some multi-decimal point or as a wavy line. All a learning experience. I would have loved to have been able to do the box-stern by numbers, but it refused or I did the numbers in the wrong way, & when entering a "crease" by using numbers to do the stations, how does one say this is a "crease-point"? I will work it out - standby for version 3?????? if this effort gives me the shits. :D

Thanks for your input. Anyone else with comment/critique? Feel free to pass judgement, evaluate test whatever... :D

[yipster]

sloping down the sprayrail like on other boats i mean, extruding vertical can be done from a curved line, aft box at waterline will slam
wait starting michlett as i read elsewhere you want to do till you come to grips with delftship witch i consider i fine profesional program

[masalai]

Plese find attached "masalaishull1.fbm" for your consideration and analysis please, I would like the feedback. This slow learner has only got one hull done.

How does one make it into a pair of hulls with hull centrelines 6.4m apart? I tried everything but no success..., or do I do part of the bridge-deck to give a mirroring plane some 3.2m to mirror? & which side will it mirror on in preference???

I put the screw & shaft in, so I can easily tell front from back:D

I may still tweak the hulls as I progress so need to be able to "un-stick" hulls?? is that easily do-able?

I can't use michelet/godzilla, as it does not like wine & or my screen driver???
What do the numbers say to my effort? Does Delft have a "fairing" tool to smooth some of the dents? It seems to have a mind of its own in moving the stations along the hull length - pain in the but - I don't want to "lock" the positions as tweaking adjustments are still progressing...

Thanks for any comments - still reading and learning.

[yipster]

masalai, allready said what i think of rear box, straight stern and sprayrail line.
looks like your getting to grips with delftship, for making a cat out of it look here (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17592&highlight=manual)

[masalai]

Thanks for the thought Yipster, nothing like that in my pdf manual. Will have a look in the FreeShip manual in the morning to see if that has a different slant??? which I can try:D

That flat section is below W/L by 10cm & without it screw would suck air??? & is 500mm long and 700mm wide overall.... See the images of the Chamberlin C10.. in my galrey

[masalai]

Here is old boat prettied up. Has to have a new bottom which I have to get built. Topsides are about right??

[kach22i]

Nice workmanship, not a lot of flair in the styling department tough.

I suppose it's better to plan simple (and well) than to do what I've seen so many others do, including myself which is to draw or plan something so beautiful and complex that when you go to actually build it you have to redesign it into a strip downed version, simple and utilitarian.

[masalai]

Thanks for the comment. This exercise was primarily to see how the underwater concept worked - a long, with no rocker and blunt ends hull behaved. an undesirable wave formation at the bows (I could not see it but others could) and the 1:20 beam/length seemed valid - since then I have revisited the John Hitch design - I had forgotten a lot of the detail, which I saw briefly, when it was being built, to be reminded by a recent update/posting.with a 1:26 beam/length ratio...

The friend who did the build, very reluctantly, agreed to the task only after lots of curved surfaces were removed. - I sort of like the "agressive" stance it would make when viewed by a smaller vessel coming from the opposite direction... :D quite an intimidating view at around 7 metres wide and 3 metres to the top of the bridge-deck-house... Then again, John Hitches "X-IT" Manta Ray shape could be similarly intimidating to see heading towards a smaller boat......

[charmc]

I sort of like the "agressive" stance it would make when viewed by a smaller vessel coming from the opposite direction... :D quite an intimidating view at around 7 metres wide and 3 metres to the top of the bridge-deck-house... Then again, John Hitches "X-IT" Manta Ray shape could be similarly intimidating to see heading towards a smaller boat......


Don't know why you want to (maybe 'cause it's fun guy stuff for which women laugh at us? :D ); but here's some inspiration if you want to look aggressive.

[masalai]

Thanks for the "wake-up" from my hippocracy - shooting my mouth off against exactly that in "grumpy" :D - They carry guns (or is it rockets now) and look a bit effeminate as well? except for multiple balls hanging around a skinny stick....are they "gay?" - - and the cat looks decidedly curvaceous - is she a confused artificially augmented blond?? I see twin nipples protruding :D, and a wet hole between her legs?

I think I would do quite well on those inkblot pictures attributed to be used by psychiatrists?

[masalai]

Sean, That is a neat trick:D May I assume the methodology was to post in the thread, wait a minute, then delete the entry...... Hah I like it.... Good timeing
Post again so points can be awarded at the site of the "invasion" which is of no adverse consequence.... :D :D :D

[Richard Atkin]

Masalai, that cat that Charlie posted is the meanest looking cat I've ever seen. I would hate to see that charging towards me. And yet...you say it looks feminine!! You are not easily intimidated!
You should design your cat so large that you can steer towards other boats and go straight over them without touching. Is that intimidating enough for you? :D

[masalai]

That has been done - Yipster posted it in Random Pictures - That one I would turn in panic and head for shallow water as quickly as I could go!!!! :D :D

Squint and look at the nipples visible above the pilothouse part of the cat;;;;;

The warships have a wirey (monotrine?) penile device with 3 testicles - I bet the fog horn is very deep:D:D

[charmc]

You should design your cat so large that you can steer towards other boats and go straight over them without touching. Is that intimidating enough for you? :D

Great idea! :D :D

[Kay9]

Thats last one isnt so much a Cat as it is a mobile bridge, looking for a river to span :)

[masalai]

Who was wrong in the first pic? did FL 1892 MN or is it MH? get a ticket for illegal parking or obstructing traffic?

The middle one, is it equipped with a metal muncher behind that door?

I reckon the end one would just threaten to "sit down" would be enough to ensure submission & total surrender...

I guess I will have to be discreet and keep out of the road of these big boys:D

[Kay9]

Colregs clearly state an overtaking vessel must give way. It dosnt say anything about the stand on vessel being beached at the time it was overtaken.

K9

[masalai]

I was only being "bloody cheeky" as water police here would have probably booked him for drunk driving after giving him a couple of stiff whiskies (at his expense) to "steady his nerves following the experience" on board (at the bar) of the big vessel:D :D - even if the other skipper was legless too??? - then had free passes for his family for a year:D:D

[masalai]

This post has been moved from "Hull speed...." with apologies to piracy victims... I got all excited because things seemed to happen just right, and posted where I was... This was a midnight flit as I started at midnight local time:D The various forms are because of file compatibility issues in the hopes that some are useful and not a "bowl of noodles" and all messed up - I don't know why?

Would someone like to play with this? - displaces 3.637 tonnes, block coefficient 0.6032 (whatever that is?), prismatic coefficient 0.7572 (I donnow?), 12.0 m lwl, 0.7m wl beam, 0.7m draft -- all for one hull...

Can I get a "panic" max velocity of 20knots (?kw engine in each hull)
At 15knots what sort of kw will the engine need to deliver
At 10knots what sort of kw will the engine need to deliver

Most recent test on the model underwater profile is to be changed to this, and last test Sun 10 Feb gave 2.9knots on the gps at 11.5 amps from a 7.2v NI-MH battery and a severely cavitating screw... What about this counter-rotating thing and which way??? - top in and down?

files posted here are from version 2.85 of Freeship at FREEship-plus.land.ru

I would like the screw fully submerged and about 650mm dia., from a horizontal shaft. Otherwise feel free to re-do the stern for a fixed position surface drive screw. Rudders needed for autopilot (I hope - as I pray that revs should do for the occasional foray for fuel into a marina...)

[masalai]

any comments? bridge deck is 1m above design waterline, LWL 10.804m, hull beam 0.601m, beam OA 6.9m, LOA 11.61m, draft 500mm and displacement to design wl just 4.01 tonnes... according to Freeship...

Drawn using FreeShip-Plus 2.9... running through "wine" on Linux mint...

[kengrome]

Masalai,

I'm using version 2.6 and you're using later versions, so I cannot open your .fbm files. However, if you export your work in FEF format then post your exported .fef files here I can probably import them, or at least I can try ... :)

[Guest625101138]

........
Would someone like to play with this? - displaces 3.637 tonnes, block coefficient 0.6032 (whatever that is?), prismatic coefficient 0.7572 (I donnow?), 12.0 m lwl, 0.7m wl beam, 0.7m draft -- all for one hull...

Can I get a "panic" max velocity of 20knots (?kw engine in each hull)
At 15knots what sort of kw will the engine need to deliver
At 10knots what sort of kw will the engine need to deliver

...........)

50
25
10

Rick W.

[masalai]

Thanks Rick, seems I am getting there... Where "there" is, I have yet to determine...

Thanks Kenneth, will endeavour to post in that format...

Brian

Kenneth, I had a go at this fef format & Jeff has not enabled that form of file upload, would you like to receive it by direct email? PM that info if you like...

Brian

[Doug Lord]

I love the underwater hull treatment at and near the transom. My Dad and I built a 20' power cat in days gone by with the same shape. Worked real well....

[masalai]

Have produced other "exports" try these...

[charmc]

Brian,

The lines look good. If you keep the weight evenly distributed, those hulls should be easily driven. I wouldn't be surprised at a nice compromise between speed when needed and economical moderate speed cruising.

[masalai]

Thanks for the response Charlie, Does it readily show that it is a hard-chine underwater shape?
- - - buggered if I can get the "development" right - anyone who would like to tweak same, or tell me how, is more than welcome...
or, give me some instructions on outputting data to feed that info so the sheets can be cut? Or else tell me how to do it somehow? - - I would like to try to make part of the model myself - eventually... scale will be the usual tenth (linear)...
Thanks all
Brian

[ASM]

Hello all and in specific Masalai,

I have been reading the posts with interest and have a simple, yet probably already mentioned question. Is this hull design capable of being scaled down to a say ~8 m version ? And what power would it need to go max 10 knots on inland waterways only ? Thanks....

BTW I might know an option to get some more efficiency and reduce weight, using manouvrable thruster tubes made from solid PU. You loose the rudders and increase efficiency.... http://www.poseidon-pde.nl/php/product.php?product_cat_id=9

[masalai]

Not far off what Rick Willoughby suggested, 10kw per hull I guess as the hull beam has to be at least 600mm to fit the engines JUST - Lombardini has some 2, & 3, cylinder engines and turbocharged options to waste your money on excess power. I am looking at the power-train as promoted at www.africancats.com - upload this - http://www.africancats.com/resources/documents/PRESS_GreenMotion_ENG1467.pdf

You can draw your own by downloading from here http://freeship-plus.pisem.su/indexEN.html and click on "support" then "downloads" this site is usually FULL of popups - ignore all of them, read all the content and ensure you download an English version, and find the pdf manuals in English too - - Have fun... There are several threads on FreeShip, a search of this net will find them...

Have fun... Screws are better as efficiency can be enhanced - read Rick Willoughby on propeller efficiency...

[Guest625101138]

Here is an image of a simply developable version of the hull.

Despite what some think about water having difficulty negotiating an abrupt transition it does not make much difference with slender hulls. The boat shown will require same power as the fully faired hull to do 20kts and 10% more to do 10kts.

The other way to make it simply developable is to make it hard chined. A single chine would work OK.


Rick W.

[masalai]

Thanks Rick, The thoughts and ideas from everyone are appreciated. - My most recent version (post 82 and 87) are the hard chine version and about 11m, are about to be superseded - I have downloaded another cad package set up for hard chine design - I will see if that makes "developability" easier... for a hard chine version...

Charlie, I am still sorting out the concept and it relies on the stern being of "fixed" depth to work properly and variations in load less significant at the other end down to design waterline so as fuel is used, ballast (fresh water) is made and pumped into tanks mid and forard to maintain ideal displacement range... (I think)?

[kengrome]

Hi Masalai,

I received your .fef file and imported it into FreeShip 2.6 ... and when the images came on-screen I saw a trimaran with three identical hulls!

I'm guessing that you may have had the "Show both sides of the model" button turned off when you made it. I couldn't get it to give me a proper set of numbers as imported so I moved things around and deleted the extra faces until I had converted it into a proper catamaran. Then I got interested in working on it some more, so I decided to simplify the model even further. It's a lot easier to work on now, and it is attached if you want to take a look at it in your newer version of FreeShip.

I figured you're going to want to install the rudders on the transoms, but the aft ends of the box keels were aligned with the transoms, and this leaves no room for the propeller in between them. So I moved the aft ends of the box keels forward about a foot, thinking that the propellers will be located here.

When I use "Mode > Developability check" there are places shown in red as you can see in the second image attachment. This usually means 'not developable" ... but this is deceiving in this case because these surfaces actually are developable. It's just that to make the software show them as developable would mean adding a bunch of new control points and lines, and this makes fairing a hassle. I prefer to let the software fair the surfaces itself, so I'm not concerned about the red areas ... and you can rest assured that the surfaces shown in red will not create any problems during construction. because they really are developable ... :)

One thing I did which possibly changes your hulls a little bit is to insure that there is a clear 'step' in the hulls between the lower and upper sections. I ran this step from the bowstems all the way to the transoms in virtually a straight line. My idea here is to create what is effectively a 'splash rail' which should help to keep the spray down. It also helps to reduce hobby-horse motion in rolling swells.

Since the entire boat is designed to be supported by its lower hulls, I see no reason why you cannot make the upper hulls much wider than they are. I widened the upper hulls an inch or so because this was the easiest way for me to simplify the model, but what I'm suggesting here is that you can probably make them 3-6 inches wider yet if you want to. This won't add much to the construction costs or total weight of the boat, but it will give you more hull interior.

The step in these hulls make them stronger, and that's a good thing when building long, slim hulls. They would be much weaker without this step, and this should help to reduce or eliminate the need for more structural components inside the hulls.

If you're concerned about the flat bottoms of the upper hull sections slapping when they come down onto the tops of waves, I suppose you could angle them a bit instead of leaving them flat. But given the fact that there's so little surface area here anyways, I don't think that angling them is worth the effort. Angling them will make the construction more difficult and time consuming too.

Charlie, I am still sorting out the concept and it relies on the stern being of "fixed" depth to work properly and variations in load less significant at the other end down to design waterline so as fuel is used, ballast (fresh water) is made and pumped into tanks mid and forward to maintain ideal displacement range... (I think)?I think this is a very interesting idea. In this case those stepped hulls will come in very handy if you use them as purge-able water ballast chambers.

Note that the lower hulls can be built completely separate from the upper hulls. The upper hulls can have their own hull bottoms, and the lower sections can have their own tops. Then they can be fastened to each other at any time before you finish the boat. I created a perfectly straight flat surface in this model where these two hull sections would come together, so it would be a cinch to attach them to each other after they have been built ... and if you ever holed (or lost) the lower hull sections your boat would still float. What a great safely feature!

I ended up with about 500 pounds more displacement at 1.5' of draft than in your model. This is more or less the height of the bottom of the upper hull section at the transom. You can check the calculations in the attached image.

I have attached the .fbm file I used to generate these images. It was produced by FreeShip 2.6 but I think newer versions can open files created by order versions, so you should have no trouble opening it directly.

[kengrome]

By the way, thanks for the link to Blender:

http://www.blender.org/

I use PCLinuxOS and it was right there in the Synaptic repository so I've already downloaded and installed it. Now all I have to do is find some time to play with it and see what it can do ... :)

[masalai]

Kenneth, I had given up on getting it sorted as I kept on getting "holes" and "kinks" and chines where I do not want which would not go away - AAArrrrrrrrrggggggh !!! so tried another direction and placed each point ONE by ONE then extending to gradually getting it almost there then several "invisible holes" appeared which the system said I had but no end of re-positioning the respective points could I overcome, - So I deleted all of the last 4 hours in effort......... argh again...

What you have done looks FANTASTIC,,, - I had opted to stick the Africancats retracting engine/screw but thanks as your effort will keep both options open...

[kengrome]

So tried another direction and placed each point ONE by ONE then extending to gradually getting it almost there ...Wow, that's a lot of work!

What you have done looks FANTASTIC,,,Thanks, I'm glad you like what I did to it, but you're the one who did all the work, all I did was clean it up and simplify it a bit.

I had opted to stick the Africancats retracting engine/screw but thanks as your effort will keep both options open.I'm not familiar with that drive system but it sounds expensive. This hull would prevent prop and rudder damage using a simple, cheap, common inboard engine installation.

[masalai]

This is the pdf illustrating the retracting electric drive

From the trials using my rough model, I had found that the "spray rail/step" was only necessary about a third way back, but it must be about 2 inches/50mm wide and Definately at the bow... midships inside was taken care of by the 45 degree chamfer which it joined. The aft "box section was to be trimmed down to make a "spoon" or step access and hang the rudders off the pointy end of the hull - The drawing was the start of a motorsailor version using a "hitchhiker rig" with NO mainsail only roller genoas off each bow. That one I posted had leaks and tweaks/pinches which would NOT dissappear. same problem as with other things as mentioned above - maybe I am doing things around the wrong way. - - somewhat of a slow learner...

[kengrome]

From the trials using my rough model, I had found that the "spray rail/step" was only necessary about a third way back ...I can understand this, so it is certainly not necessary to have a full length step there. Nevertheless I made it full length for three reasons -- first it was easier to do in the software, second it makes for easier construction, and three because it makes a stronger hull.

The aft "box section was to be trimmed down to make a "spoon" or step access and hang the rudders off the pointy end of the hullThis means you'd have to use 'barn door rudders', right? There's nothing wrong with this type of rudder but they are not balanced so it takes more control pressure to move them.

I was thinking that you'd probably want to use balanced rudders extending down from the transom to a shoe (something like a piece of stainless steel flat bar) that connects the bottom aft end of the box keel with the bottom of the rudder post. Then again I didn't know about your plans for modification of the transom area.

If you go with a traditional inboard engine / shaft / propeller, and assuming you still want the transom like you described it here, it may make sense to move the aft end of the box keel and the propeller forward another foot or two, or extend the upper portion of the hull aft the same distance. Then you can use a spade rudder aft of the propeller with your rrdder behind it, and your transom step will still be behind the aft end of the rudder.

Or better yet, why not leave the rudder 'sticking out' past the end of the transom and cut a slot in it for an underwater step up to your transom steps. This would make it easier to board the boat, especially for folks who aren't quite as limber as they used to be in their younger days. It's always nice to know that there's a re-boarding ladder built into your rudder, because it will always be there when you need it ... :)

[masalai]

True Kenneth, many things to consider, Thanks for the feedback and ideas... Time is something I have plenty of - and I hope that advantage will persist and that new lightweight high capacity batteries will become available at reasonable $$$ - A lot of other things are happening - technology wise, environmentally and every other which way...

Given some time and inclination, I will put your information, ideas and integrate this into next iteration in a new computer coming Monday or Tuesday - This one is too slow for serious number crunching & I have got to like 2 screens - new will be twins, hopefully making life easier for this old fart...

[masalai]

Hi sean, I am not real good at this computer cad thing so just do parts, and never get to be satisfied with the part done so do not progress too far to show the whole picture. I have a fair idea what I want - in my mind. - - Its just a matter of getting it into this stupid cad application so it will present it as I visualise in my head.

I will get there in the end (before I need to present my desires for a "get-real" assessment by a friendly NA...)

Also, I am still sorting out my priorities and objectives - to meet my longing, and yet, not displease my lady love too much...

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

Sorry - I am trying to monitor myself - I should just give it all up...:)

Stop trying to conform to the software or look for software that works as you see things - me - I like Rhino - still took a year and half to get half way...

The arguement is - there is no one way to communicate form or thought - DO WHAT YOU KNOW...

Get it out there - carve stone - wood - or plastimorphic goo - that is what the engineers do..

SH.

[lazeyjack]

Hi sean, I am not real good at this computer cad thing so just do parts, and never get to be satisfied with the part done so do not progress too far to show the whole picture. I have a fair idea what I want - in my mind. - - Its just a matter of getting it into this stupid cad application so it will present it as I visualise in my head.

I will get there in the end (before I need to present my desires for a "get-real" assessment by a friendly NA...)

Also, I am still sorting out my priorities and objectives - to meet my longing, and yet, not displease my lady love too much...

you cant get Far in freeship, once you finished lines
I offered other programmes
you can start in Maxsurf, because there you can pull around surfaces. once there you can do all your eng structure in Rhino You say you wont shift off linux, so how can you progress? understand I am only letting you borrow these things for a day:)) and you cant make copy,
I have ground away at this thing now for 2 years maybe
more, and it is tuff, but you have the time
i suggest, that you find someone to tutor you through a messenger, yahoo works the bestest, then msn, use sound and microphone

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

I am OK - thanks...:)

Masi - I imagine that the original question that I deleted or attached porn (or LUCY PINDER in Navy shorts) to was as follows - what is this thing intended for - a cheap ass condo run away from the wife - or run to with the wife...

Either way - it is worth exploration - me - I am tired - bored - about to lose my day job - not scared of same - just doodling boats on my time and floating about in the flotsam...

What is the 'brief' for your crazy big ass cat...

As for contemporary installation of high output turbo diesels in those narrow hulls - a shaft log - a shaft bearing - a cutlass bearing - sea water feed for same (STRONG seals) - well - think of servicablility - changing the Racors - the oil filters - any hydro coolers - cleaning sea strainers - augh...

Let me just spit - random thoughts - sail drives are a pain - perhaps volvo IPS - or aft facing Mercs - random thoughts - it is Saturday night - a blue collar rite...

Electrics - hell of a lot of area for collector panels if you intend to go per your first model - all DC - very easy stuff..

Even a hydraulic hybrid...

Just random thoughts...

SH.

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

Really depressed all the time and really angry about it too...:)

I don't know if this is a Tennant boat or other - sitting in the yard just now ...

HOLY CRAP IS THIS OLD - see http://frankscorner.org/index.php?p=rhino3d ...

Email McNeel with your request for a linux or whatever based version of Rhino - many have...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgYvmSYtO20&feature=related

SH.

[masalai]

At a guess I would say Kanga Bartles or Tennant... I do not think Robin Chamberlin did anything skinny with other than a plumb bow - but I could be wrong (again)

[masalai]

Thank you Landie & Fanie - - a good read and learning opportunity....

Would you guys like to "pontificate" on a system of electric drives, gensets (DC? as per polar power?), batteries and solar panels - - - Starting with electric drives of 10kW each and in modular form to achieve the rest as technology improves?

I have been looking at 3Kw of solar panels, - - this engine, http://www.polarpowerinc.com/products/generators/3-8kw_Lom-1003.htm without the "co-gen stuff" and the 10Kw 6255 as used in this version of the same engine http://www.polarpowerinc.com/products/generators/7-10kw_lombardine.htm, (around 10Kw at less than 5.3 litres/hr?)... - - - Batteries would be one bank, which would do for "house" & "power" with genset starting pretty quick (batteries are the weakest link, being too heavy & low on power density to put in a decent capacity).... The solar panels would keep the batteries up for the 80% plus time whilst not needing the power to go somewhere....

Most of the reading I have done suggest, drive motors should be higher voltage the better, which implies something around 96 to 140VDC using pulse controllers - I have only found 2 or 3, being "African Cats", Maine cats? (but they may have reverted to 48V) and Glacier Bay / OSSA Powerlite using the Mercedes diesel powerplant... 6 litres/hour with 25Kw...! - - - So, ? minimal batteries to start with, either powerplant as they are both light and very fuel efficient and use the same generator by the looks - brushless too... all to be held inside a 39 ft x 24 ft cat yet to be designed as I need to be able to say what it needs to carry, (or go less to cut weight), and hope technology allows minimal need for diesel fuel soon..... I am getting to a stage where I have to start moving or stay landlocked - Oh what a horrible thought.....:D:D:D

Does this make any sense? - A massive challenge to my mind...

Some reading http://www.cruisingworld.com/capable-cruising/systems/whats-going-to-power-your-cat-53845.html and fbm files cannot be read by freeship between versions (different author or something) 2.6 and 2.9+ and fef are not cleared for use herein so will email as requested.... by anyone...

[masalai]

Sean, I was having another look at that "Tennant" and it seems the "naughty owner" has "overloaded" it quite a bit beyond the design waterline I have seen of his similar styled boats - and of other similar designs/builds - like the Chamberlin C10 in my gallery....

[Fanie]

As I have responded in the other thread - and some.

Mas, if you talk about 10kW of power... man that is a serious LOT of power !!! To give you an idea... one sq meter of SA sunligh has about 1000W of power available in it (according to the clever people). To be able to sustain your 10 000W you will need 10sq meter of sunlight, not accounting for losses, which is limited to about 8 hours per day and only on good summer sun shining days. 10 000W will draw a modest 833 amp off your 12V while if you install the looooong mains cable to your boat then current at 230V would be about 44 amp Get the idea ? Go check out a welder that can supply that current... you may get some in 3 phase and if you do it is a serious piece of machinery.

Here's how you get an idea of how much power is a bit of power. I'm sure you can find a 10A 12V DC motor somewhere, ok. Put a handle on the thing and crank it... see what voltages you get. Then put a load on it and crank it again... see what output you get. Then fetch the drilling machine and crank the motor with it... again see of the drilling machine is up to it. Only now the truth will begin to set in.

I have put a 5hp victa lawn mower motor on an alternator... (when I was young and still pretty). The lawn mower motor doesn't make one more turn when you connect the alternator to a battery, it stalls it in it's tracks.

Let me put it into another perspective for you. A radio needs a few watts to talk to someone on the other side of the world, and here we are blowing thousands of watts on something else. Granted, not the same thing but I keep thinking the way we use power is a bit like candy floss.

I have obtained a small phosphor radio active source with half life of I think it is 15 years. It's been at my bedside for about 10 years now, still happily glowing away day and night, never gets switched off, no power source, no charging it up, no sun or wind required, no putting petrol in it... it just keeps going. Isn't this the thing we should look at ? We could do away with sails all together, reserving them for fun sailing only, your radio active motor can run 24 / 7 with no emissions other that steam. Power on demand.

I'm considering hi-jacking one of these nu-ki-lear (George Bush) submarines and use those power sources in my cat I'm sick of running around with smelly and expensive petrol... it so... so... old.

I know the subject is fascinating and intriging, but unless you have lots of money to throw around this is not a sustainable means of power. You cannot generate enough power off the sun and or wind to keep you going like ie your iron horse can. Technology is not ready for it yet. Trust me on this.

You can test this on a smaller scale. Get a trolling motor say 110lb thrust, a big fat battery for it, and some some solar chargers. Do it on the same scale as you would with the big idea. Take the weight and cost into consideration and see where this leaves you. This setup will only have some value with what we have available if you can get the rig to mains to charge it up properly every night. Thumb suck you will have power for about 6 to 10 hours before you have fully depleted your battery and you take to oars the rest of the way back to mains power. Your battery will also not last very long if you keep this up constantly.

Now one solution would be if you use much smaller motor(s), and big solars and a fairly substantial wind power generator. The relationship should be such that the solars can supply to the electric motors full steam, and have some reserve output to charge the batteries to a decent state. It is going to be of no use if you travelsome distance on the electrics and deplete the batteries, and from a practical point of view if you get into a storm or foul weather you are going to be in real **** if it outlasts you batteries... you end up at the North pole. You know... the place whre there is lots of ice and if the Eskimo likes you you have to sleep with his wife...

I think we should discuss Eskimo's instead :D

Look, if this was a workable solution then the show would be littered with electric boats. All of this is still in a very young and undeveloped phase. There are practical issues you have to experience to understand. On paper everything looks good and cosure.

I know you're rearin' to go get your hands dirty on the new boat. My advice is, get yourself a nice sailing rig, fit a couple of a bit oversized motors on it and get the basic thing working. THEN you start playing with the other stuff, make mods and see how little this technology has to offer at this stage.

On my own boat I'm putting sails and a couple of outboards, the outboards being my backup for maneuvering and on the occasion someone hooks a big fish they will operate. A couple of solars for charging batteries to sustain the instrumentation and run some lights... probably a fridge and a 2000W inverter to run the microwave for the wife. Gas for showers, stove and braai (BBQ) and that's it. I'm not even considering electric propulsion.

[Fanie]

I get offers for substantial amounts of money to develop smaller power sources for mobile use, and for that matter for boats. No can do so easy. I hate this topic when a customer walks in here with zero technical knowledge and no feel for technology. That's the kind of guy that loans your tap and breaks it :D Waving the blank check just adds to the frustration :(

[masalai]

The gensets are there http://www.polarpowerinc.com/product...w_Lom-1003.htm and "rated at 10kw", and, the motors to propel the boat Thoosa 9000 are rated at 9kw to drive the boat, and the solar array is to keep the batteries topped up for "domestic use & maintain battery charge condition" - - I only seek 20 minutes under moderate power before the chargers kick in - as batteries are presently too heavy and expensive - I hope for improvements in the batteries before too long...

Does that make more sense or is the domestic (non propulsion) draw a no-no? - so that part could be hived off to be independent......?

Is the status of electric propulsion still too immature? I am not seeking to have you develop the system, just review and analyze what is available / presented for consideration? sorry if I seem a pain in the arse but this new technology does not have sufficient analysis and technical info on their respective marketing sites.....

Thanks

[Fanie]

You will get better efficiency running the props directly from the diesel motor shafts. Converting to electricity has some losses and when you convert to mechanical power you have losses again, not even adding the cost for the generator and electric motors.

I didn't think you want me to develop such a system, and in my opinion not a good way of doing it.

Sorry Mas.

[Fanie]

Since the power cuts we had here, half the population rushed to buy their petrol or diesel generators. Most of them were in for a shock. They thought a modest size generator was going to take over their household for them... the geyser, kettle, hair dryer or stove makes the generator cut out, and the second eye opener was the cost for fuel to generate power for a few hours.

Every second tom and harry with a swingin' d3ck is into this here, and they are all going to get filthy stinking rich overnight :D

[masalai]

I hope you dutifully relieve them of some of their not yet got moneys first - in cash!

I am trying to plan for the prospect of NO fuel unless one owns lots of coconuts.... I know how to get fuel from them.... thanks for thinking of me.....

[Fanie]

I also don't like to be dependt on fuel.

There was rumers of a technology that would not split atoms, but join them. When the joining process happens it gives a sharp high power burst of energy, and it can be controlled other than splitting atoms which has a chain reaction that can go out of control. So, save you potato peels, and don't throw rubbish away. Who knows what the future holds :D

[Butch .H]

Mas your coconut oil fuel idea is viable.Aparently on some islands out your way it is used to fuel a insurgency. We have been involved in a fuel ethonol project in Mozambique. Huge tracks of land are being set aside for sugarcane production. Mozambique is also rich in coconut plantations. It takes one inspired individual to start somthing like this.

We have purchase a bio Diesel plant to refine cooking oil. We run all our transport on this bio diesel. It does smell like fish and chips. We run four diesel vehicle's in our small company and we save at least R8000.00 per month doing this. Your coconut oil will take less refining than old oil.

What ever you have perfected patent the thing and export it asap

Regards
Butch

[Fanie]

It seems everyone with a diesel have his own oil refinery here. Foreigners ariving may think we're big on fish and chips and russians.

[juiceclark]

Look at this contraption selling hundreds of units on Ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HYDROGEN-GENERATOR-GAS-FUEL-DIESEL-SAVER-HHO-ON-DEMAND_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33609QQihZ004QQitemZ140251796043QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

There must be a sucker born every minute...or second? Either it doesn't do anything (most likely) or it works a little and you have a bomb in your car.

[masalai]

Hoooley Doooley, Look at that good looking boy, was that taken in your golf playing days? - - So where do I get the energy to make hydrogen? and why not use that and bypass the middleman with his aluminium tank which wont hold hydrogen and becomes brittle over time when in contact????? waste of effort & money...

Coconut oil does NOT need refining, just filtering.... Been proven since around 1986 on Bougainville Island, and used by Solomon Tropical Products, Honiara, on their diesel landcruiser since 1991, and also in the sump.... I have driven it and power is as good as a new one.... as extracted using a standard "expeller process" and filtering.... You can also use this oil to cook your chips, fry your eggs, treat your sunburn, anoint ones skin for a nice massage, hairoil, hand and skin moisturizer and flu preventative.....

[Fanie]

I must say that pretty looking clark boy looks all juiced up or what eh :D

There are guys here claiming you get to save between 20 and 50 % on fuel with hydrogen...

Maybe you just don't understand golf ;)

[juiceclark]

Well thanks gang! <<blush>> I hate that work picture (for advertising), but thought a dog in a panda suit could only take me so far in life!

Isn't that hydrogen thing unbelievable. If it really makes a little, whose going to pay for the first mini-van to blow-up when full of lil' soccer players??

A recent study estimates about 5 TRILLION cubic feet of natural gas just off the west coast of FL in shallow water. If you're going to run machinery with an explosive gas, why not use the stuff in such abundance? The whole energy thing has become such a circular scam I can't believe it.

[Guest625101138]

Brian
Here is an easy way to get the boat you want today:
http://www.powerboat-world.com/index.cfm?Nid=48585
Proven performance and ready to go. Small change for some.

Rick

[masalai]

Thanks for the thoughts and interest, do you know what its litres/nautical mile is? - - do you reckon he would accept less than a third of that? - and I bet the good lady would never come aboard - end of that idea there... oops... :D:D:D

[masalai]

Oh well Thanks all for your interest and participation in my quest to design to my aspirations.... - Economics in the global arena makes me feel that my dreams will remain dreams and I will remain on this net dreaming....... Hello all.....

[Guest625101138]

Thanks for the thoughts and interest, do you know what its litres/nautical mile is? - - do you reckon he would accept less than a third of that? - and I bet the good lady would never come aboard - end of that idea there... oops... :D:D:D

She will circle the globe on a tank of fuel - 10,000 litres.

Rick W

[Nordic Cat]

Look at this contraption selling hundreds of units on Ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HYDROGEN-GENERATOR-GAS-FUEL-DIESEL-SAVER-HHO-ON-DEMAND_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33609QQihZ004QQitemZ140251796043QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

There must be a sucker born every minute...or second? Either it doesn't do anything (most likely) or it works a little and you have a bomb in your car.

Another of those "fuel saving" devices, this one is not magnetic though:D :D

HHO gas- probably better known as H20 - what most of us would call steam???

There can be some merit in using a fuel water emulsion, but this is not the way to go about it. He is right though, it is a very safe unit to have in your car:D

Regarding diesel electric propulsion, there is a big write up on it in one of the latest PBO issues. (Practical Boat Owner). I can find the correct issue if you like.

Regards

Alan

[masalai]

Rick, that would leave little space for the comforts a woman would demand, and it is soooo bloody ugly - sort of like the late 50's monster cars with chrome and fins everywhere only not so wide?

Also, where would I get the fuel? - I can't afford to buy a coconut plantation, and I still need to buy the oil expellers and other stuff if I use CNO (to me the easiest option as EVERYONE will want the used deep-fry oil from the corner shoppe)....

Nordic - the only reason I thought of electric was to be able to use "renewable energy" and most boat engine manufacturers (except cummins?) will not warrant for CNO use - so solar photovoltiac and other small (compression ignition) engines that are lighter - as gensets... - Now I am fully disillusioned, and think sail and small auxiliary as the only viable option.... and the redesign on the Bob Oram "Mango" (now wider) called the 39C.... - more like a shortened 44C?