Folding Kayaks

[RocknPine]

Hello,
My name is Pete and I wanted to get some feedback on a new design of mine that is patent pending. I've had this idea for more than 20 years and decided to do something about it 3 years ago. I'm on my 9th prototype and finally very satisfied with the results. At this point, I plan to have roughly 25 boats built for marketing purposes.
What makes my boat different from the rest is the way the frame folds/unfolds within the skin in 5 minutes or less. I have the weight down to 24 pounds (10kg), and the folded size measures 50" X 13" X 5". The length of the boat is 9 feet with a beam around 33". Displacement is greater than 300 pounds. It's quite roomy, stable, and very comfortable. While it won't mean much to true sea or white water kayakers I'm hoping it will have broader appeal. The appeal comes from the quick set up time and the portability. It should allow anyone that wants to travel with or has no space to store a boat the opportunity to do so.
Please feel free to visit www.foldingboatco.com for more information.
All critiques, good and bad, are welcome!
Thanks,
Pete

[ted655]

There are thousands of duck hunters that will never wade or swim out to a duck again.
Great idea! Be sure to make some "outdoor Shows" in Louisiana. Give some thought to 4 wheeler ATV transport.
I've a friend who is presently pulling a Fold A Boat behind his ATV now, like a sled, but it's all he has.
I see oil field inspectors using these also. You should do well. Good job my man !!
Me, I don't duck hunt, no.

[RocknPine]

Ted, that is very kind of you!
Actually, I love to duck hunt and fish which was great inspiration for this design. I especially enjoy getting into highland lakes for trout in WY & AK.
I do have two questions we, (my partner Blaine and I), could use help answering:
1) What might you expect to pay for this boat? (Before you answer, understand that we are using good quality materials like reinforced neoprene for the skin and light weight nylon and high quality aluminum tubing in the frame.)
2) Coming up with a good name for the boat has been difficult. The better ones are taken, or so it seems. I'm considering everything from Yakpak, Port-a-yak, Kpak, Fold-a-yak, Collapse-a-yak, etc. Yak-pak is what we are using now. Any suggestions would be appreciated, (and rewarded if used). Can anyone suggest a name for this boat?

[ted655]

:confused: Price? What is (or is close), your competition? Start there, Then add "Not a toy", "Not a gimmick". "Professional boat, highest quality materials". Then a price that tells me it's "the real deal". Your banker will want a business plan, with total information on every aspect, including a life insurance policy on ya'll. By the time you write that all up you will better know how much you HAVE to charge.
I'm thinking $600 is ball park.
.
Names, well actually "Folding kayak" caught my eye. "Travelers Kayak", "Flying kayak", "Instant kayak", "Hikers kayak" (Backpackers). "Kayak in a tube", Kayak in a sleeve", "Dehydrated Kayak", ?????
Stay away from "Yak", they are ill tempered little beasts.
.
I had a friend start a business, people who had been his friend for years, helped him get started. Once they smelled success, several tried to move in and become primary s on his loans, thus giving them HIS business! I don't envy ya'll, watch your back AND HOW things are worded in contracts & loan papers.
Oh yeah, that friend now does over 2 million a year. Good luck!:D

[RocknPine]

Hey Ted,
Thanks for the feedback. I have a pretty good idea of what I HAVE to retail price the kayak for. What I don't know is what folks will be willing to pay, hence the question.
I have spent almost 2 years putting a business plan together. I'm in the marketing phase now, I'd like to wholesale the boats. We are also sourcing production, a tedious task.
I don't know that I'll make any money on this venture, to soon to say. I hope to at the very least break even. Retiring in 5 years would be much better than having to work until I'm 95 to pay off the debt I have invested so far.
I really have enjoyed working for myself though. I've learned a great deal and made many new great acquaintances.

[ted655]

:idea: I just had my duck hunting buddy take a look. He was excited by the camo model. He already owns 2 porta boats, but said IF yours was easy to assemble & durable, it would have the edge over the others. He said $1,000 to $600 would be HIS budget range. He hopes to see one @ a show, soon
He also thought the use of "folding chair" sounded cheezy, a poor choice of words (he's a ol guy, used to cheap folding/collapsing chairs). He said the craft was really a punt boat, but agreed that was a little known distinction, so thought kayak was close. He had some concern with neoprene durability. This was after reading your description, he still had doubts.
This 70 yr old fellow has done it all & still doing it, keeping abreast of new materials. He wants to "touch" the covering, bottom line.. . He had no better idea on a name. His dad was a canoer & repaired the old canvas canoes. My friend is a avid canoer & has sea kayaked a few times.
I'd say he WAS your ideal target survey. I called up the page, gave him the mouse & left him alone to study the boat & text.
His opinions and 2 cents worth anyway. Hope it helps.
Can one be bought anywhere presently?

[RocknPine]

Hey Ted,
I do not have any for sale presently but should soon, (2-3 months). I'm sourcing production as we speak!
I will have a few models sooner for marketing.
Thanks for your Buddy's feedback!
Pete

[RocknPine]

I'm wondering if anyone can suggest fabric material type for the top portion of my folding boat? I'm fairly pleased with the neoprene coated nylon that I'm using for the bottom but it does not come in any colors, other than black, and it's expensive. I'd like to find a tough waterproof fabric in the 16 oz weight range.

[sal's Dad]

I like it! I have had Folboats, Kleppers, a Piece Boat, and this looks really good, for a variety of applications. Think folding dinghy, aboard ANY cruising boat...

Sal's Dad

[tspeer]

Cool - a folding scow!

It's not clear from your website just what the dimensions are. You should have some basic dimensions listed, such as the length and beam, and the length, width, and depth of the folded package.

It sounds like you've put all your effort into the P9 model, but a bigger 2-person version would be very useful. That would make it suitable as a dinghy on a cruising sailboat. You could take a person ashore, and be able to bring some cargo back to the boat.

[RocknPine]

Thanks for your comments. I'll plan to add the dimensions of the boat, maybe with our Solidwork's drawings.
We are considering a two place model. It will just take a little more time to put together because we will need to telescope the tubing to make it work and keep it compact. The single place design is all about keeping the boat light, compact, and quick to assemble. We expect folks that RV or live in smaller spaces, (apartments), might appreciate these features.
We are also developing a piggyback self contained trolling motor which will be controlled by a 4-way toggle switch.

[tranmkp]

very cool,

folding scow is neat (esoteric) looks like a skimmer/garvy/sneakbox..

pocket garvy - aqua slipper - slippercraft - teal - canvasback (may already be taken)

If I think of more Ill get back

[RocknPine]

Great ideas! I like the aqua slipper!

[sal's Dad]

Looks like a duck.

[kengrome]

Hi Pete,

I designed a folding dinghy a couple years ago before I registered with the Coast Guard as a manufacturer. They gave me lots of very important information about the way they define different classes of boats, and it makes a big difference how your boat is classified in terms of their requirements.

Boats classified as 'canoes/kayaks' have NO flotation requirements, but the next easiest class is 'rowboats' and they absolutely require flotation. Your design is similar enough to my original design in its dimensions that I think your boat will be called a 'rowboat' by the USCG and therefore you'll need to install flotation.

The USCG called my first design a rowboat too, so I redesigned it early in the game to fit it into the canoe/kayak class. In my case I needed the canoe/kayak classification for economy. I think it's rather late for your boat to be redesigned, and I don't think it makes sense to do this just to get it into the canoe/kayak classification. Your boat is different from mine and it targets a very different market. This is why I think you'll be better off to simply add the required flotation for the rowboat classification -- and comply with the additional labeling and other requirements for this class too of course.

Flotation is a 'good thing' anyways. In your boat I don't think it would take more than a couple chunks of closed cell polyethylene foam to make it comply with the rowboat requirements. You could probably use one piece as a seat bottom and the other as a seat back if you have it molded so that it fits nicely between and around your aluminum tubes. Note that I have not reviewed the requirements for foam flotation lately, and if this flotation must be installed 'permanently' instead of being removable this could create a new challenge for you ... :)

Here's a little bit of the info my USCG rep sent me to clarify the definition of the canoe/kayak classification and its requirements. This may help you and possibly others who may be designing their own boats for resale in the USA:

Mr. Grome,

The Coast Guard has come up with the following formula for determination whether a boat falls within the standards of a canoe/kayak;

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A watercraft designed to be manually propelled
or equipped with a low horsepower motor whose
ends do not have the transverse dimension greater
than 45% of the maximum beam and whose length
to beam ratio is:

Length 14 feet or less - Length/Beam Ratio 3:1 to 5:1
Length Over 14 feet to 16 feet - Length/Beam Ratio 4:1 to 6:1
Length Over 16 feet - Length/Beam Ratio 5:1 and greater
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

For boats that fall within the above guidelines and considered and canoe/kayak then the only requirements applicable to the boat itself are the Primary Hull Identification Number and the Duplicate Hull Identification Number.

[ancient kayaker]

Looks great, simpler, probably faster assembly than folding boats I've tried. Did not see any signs of pesky inflation requirements.

Not sure it's really a kayak though; beam is typical for 9 footer but ends look a bit blunt. I assume you have legal concerns regarding coastguard definitions and requirements but even puddle-paddling kayakers like me have certain expectations from a kayak, such as paddling ease and speed over stability of which you look to have lots. You don't want a lot of disappointed customers returning the boats so you need to decide which market this will succeed in.

The low-end small foldables are in the $600-1000 range, classics go for a lot more but offer performance. For fishing/shooting you might want to offer storage.

[RocknPine]

As it turns out our boat does meet the exception granted by the Coast Guard for Kayaks & Canoes. We do intend to offer sponsoons as accessories. These boats are really not intended for the typical kayaker (white water or sea kayaking). They are more of a general purpose boat for folks with space or time constraints. This would include anyone that wants to take a boat camping, hunting, fishing, or that has no room to store a full sized boat.
I could still use help with name suggestions.
Thanks,
Pete

[kengrome]

As it turns out our boat does meet the exception granted by the Coast Guard for Kayaks & Canoes.Hi Pete,

This is great news!

I've never heard of an 'exception' to the USCG's definition of canoe/kayak. Can you explain this in greater detail?

As you know, the reason I'm asking is because I designed a tiny, cheap little folding dinghy a couple years and was going to manufacture it -- that is, until my USCG rep told me it would not comply with their definition of canoe/kayak because the width of my boat's ends were more than 45% of the boat's maximum width. This relationship seems to apply to your boat as well ...

But if there's an exception I don't know about that applies to your boat, then maybe it also applies to mine -- and then we can both celebrate the good news!

:)

[RocknPine]

Hello Ken,
Here is what I have. This is not an exemption. It just means that our boats fit within the following definition of a kayak:
A canoe or kayak or similar watercraft is defined as: a watercraft designed to be manually
propelled or equipped with a low horsepower motor whose ends do not have a transverse
dimension greater than 45% of the maximum beam and whose length to beam ratio is as specified
below:
Length Length / Beam Ratio
14 Feet or Less 3:1 to 5:1
Over 14 Feet to 16 Feet 4:1 to 6:1
Over 16 Feet 5:1 to 8:1
An inflatable boat is defined as: any craft that achieves and maintains its intended shape and
buoyancy through the medium of inflation. This includes RIBs.
A sailboat is defined as: a boat designed or intended to use sails as the primary means of
propulsion.

The width of the end of our boat is 8" across. That is the distance between the two tangent points at the end of our boats. With a beam of 34" the transverse dimension is 23% of the maximum beam width.
Our boats assembled length is 9'-2". With a 34" beam that means we have a length to beam ratio of 3.2:1.

How are things going on your side of the world?
Pete

[Lt. Holden]

I think the intent of your design is very good as a general purpose "Knock About" (possible name) watercraft; hence my suggested name "EXPLORIST", this name was used for a short time by GARMIN (GPS) but I don't believe it is currently in use. It might be worthwhile to contact them, maybe offer an optional package with a small multi-function GPS. I think the self-contained trolling motor option has possibilities.
Optional flotation might consist of the seat design mentioned earlier or air filled bags fore and aft and/or alongside the seat. These might be inflated by a small (1 lb.) propane cylinder replenished by a small AC/DC compressor or at a gas station. The optional outriggers you mentioned might be inflated in the same way. As a one-time Tarheel I wish you well in pursuing your dream. If you are able secure suitable suppliers I might be interested in marketing it in the Northeast/New England area.

[kengrome]

The width of the end of our boat is 8" across. That is the distance between the two tangent points at the end of our boats.Hi Pete, thanks for the explanation!

Not to be dense about this, but how do you determine where these tangent points are located? Do you draw a transverse line across the end of the boat and make it touch the hull at the centerline, then mark the two points on either side of the centerline where the transverse line is no longer touching the hull?

It would have been nice if I had had this information two years ago when I re-designed my little folding boat to make it comply with these rules. My re-designed boat did not perform well, but at least it complied with the 'rules'! Just goes to show you how rules can make things worse sometimes instead of better.

How are things going on your side of the world?It's hot and humid over here, and I'm designing more than building lately, but that's fine beause I enjoy the design work too ... :)

[jeff spinney]

hey ted.jeff spinn here. keep listen to them old guys. when they say come with me,,,, do it , there smarter than us when it comes to fun. jeff spinney

[Dragons]

If there is anyone out there that has a body for the Klepper or the ability to make one, I would be very interested. I have the frames for two of them lying about but the skins are toast, Re: adding flotation, the Klepper used the flotation to tighten the skin in the outside that worked very well. I only wish they had used less biodegradable materials to do so :(

[ancient kayaker]

I did a Google search for "klepper replacement skin" and got lots of hits. I gather the genuine article from Klepper is about $2000 which is a lot less than a new boat and there are sources of decent skins for maybe half of that. It may depend on which model(s) you have.

[Dragons]

Sigh! When I bought mine new boats from Germany were $1,700 complete.
I have two Arieus 2 s and one set of sails, each boat has the rudder and stuff, kept high and dry all this time in a garage but I have no real idea about critter attacks etc. When the decks fell apart I put them away and have not taken them out since as I had no way to replace the hulls.

[tinhorn]

Looks like a duck.

That's IT! That's the perfect name! Go ahead - just TRY to forget that name.

[kengrome]

Hi Pete,

I hate to be the bearer of bad news (for you or for me) but if my USCG representative is correct, neither your boat nor mine can be classified as a canoe/kayak -- and basic (not level) flotation is required for "rowboats".

When you posted your claim that your boat will be classified as a canoe/kayak, I was still not clear how your boat's "tangent points" could be only 8 inch apart, so I sent an email to my USCG representative for clarification. Here's what he had to say:

Look at figure 1 you sent me. Assuming the black line at the juncture of the transom and sidewall is at a 45 degree angle to the centerline of the boat, the point where the black line touches the boat is the point from where the width measurement is taken to both sides of the transom. This is considered the surface facing aft. So, any point along the surface facing aft between these two 45 degree tangent points is considered transom surface.I have attached the same "figure 1" to this post so you can see what he is referring to. Basically he says the tangent line that touches the boat MUST be at a 45 degree angle ... and unfortunately if you apply this rule to your boat, your tangent points will be much further apart than 8 inches.

When you made your "tangent points" post earlier in this thread, I presumed those points to be located where the ends of your boat "break away" from a transverse plane that touches your boat's end at the centerline. In other words, if you push one end of your boat up against a vertical wall, and make its centerline perpendicular to that wall, it will touch the wall for a distance of only 8 inches -- 4 inches on either side of the boat's centerline. The problem with this definition is that it is wrong ... :(

My USCG rep says these tangent lines MUST be oriented at 45 degrees to the boat's centerline!


So Pete ... if your USCG representative has given you a definition that disagrees with the one mine gave me, please post it here, then maybe we can get to the bottom of this issue. At the moment I believe I finally understand how the USCG defines "the width of the ends of the boat", but different USCG reps may have different understandings of these regulations, so it might make sense to get a consensus here.

I'm not trying to get these USCG reps into trouble, nor am I trying to create problems for you. On the contrary, I am actually trying to save you from ordering a bunch of your boats from your chosen manufacturer only to have them "blocked from entry" by the USCG because they are do not have the required flotation.

As far as my boats are concerned, I do not want to start producing them -- thinking they will be classified as canoes/kayaks -- only to learn later that they will not. Non-compliance issues like this can make or break a business!

By the way, my rep also said this about flotation, probably because he thinks I'm trying too hard to get my boat into the canoe/kayak classification:

Boats that are rated manually propelled or powered by less than 2 HP fall under the Modified (Basic) Flotation. This means that after the boat has been submerged for 18 hours some part of the boat must be above the surface of the water.I think they drill holes in the boat in different locations before they begin their flotation test, apparently to let air in. This kind of ruins any possibility of using beach balls or other air-trapping devices to comply with the flotation requirements -- a good reason to use foam I guess.

You're lucky, you can have your foam molded as a seat bottom, backrest, etc. because your boat doesn't have to fold down as small as mine. But my boat is supposed to fold to less than one inch thick, and this is impossible unless I redesign the hull (again) and make it into a legally compliant canoe/kayak ... :(