Enjoy Survival in disaster

[enjoysurvival]

Hi,

I am a newbee and browsed a lot of wonderful designs in the site.
But , not yet found any titles about "enjoy survival" when disaster comes.
Yes , very rare but it happens.

I have designed for myself some "enjoy survival kits ,ESK" including mp3 with loud speaker , a very light weight computer with extra batteries , fishing rods , spear guns , solar charger , lots of alkanline and chargeable batteries , core-tex suit ,down ,sleeping bag , swim suit , 30 litres water and 10 kilos of delicious can food , a diy solar heater to boil water ...which could spend some weeks . ( of course ,most importantly , the GPS ad satellite phone ) All are placed in air-tight containers with ropes attaching the "primitive device" ( only available till november 07 ) to prevent from blow float away.


I am very afraid of dying and when watching the surviver's video , all are badly prepared or some may just have biscuits and several litres of water. I just don't know Why?

I am not millionaire but the money spent for the survival device is definitely not proportional to my boat. I have to design myself a double air-tight plastic containers but do not know how to guranteed the "ESK" MUST come with my life raft when some extreme cases happen.

I would like to request you fabulous designers or sea players to invent some
"enjoy survival device" instead of several thousand dollars primitive 'life rafts"

I consider that it is a part of the boat design. This new design must be reliable to face 97% of disastrous cases. I always afraid that my "enjoy survival kits" would sink with the boat or no time to released them. ( I read the article that a family attacked by an orca had only one minute to escape.)

If ..... here is not the forum to discusss..... sorry , but in my mind , "enjoying survival at sea is one of the program acrossing the Atlantic.


"Behold , the sea itself , and on it's limitless .............

[Kay9]

I cant tell, are you serious?
Replace the 30 kilos of water with a desalinator hand pump. There just saved you 300 lbs. You can drop that solar water heater as well. Your not going to use it in a survival situation. 10 Kilos of food would be nice but you can go a long time without food, so I would drop that a bit and take a second desalinator. Take your GPS, EPIRB and SAT Phone. Add some blankets, fishing gear and take it to the people that pack your life raft. They will gladly add in your extra supplies.

As far as enjoying all of this goes. I dont think there is any way you could ever enjoy losing your boat/home.

[enjoysurvival]

Hi, Kay9

My main point is to design a device which prevents from any event of losing supplies.

In the orca attack family case , they have only one minute to escape and only a raft and limited food taken.

GPS, EPIRB and SAT Phone would already good enough to guranteed to be found and saved in a few days if weather allows.

Hand held Desalinator is of course sufficient and it is a schedule of daily survival program.

My air-tight container could flow beside the raft and not need to move in. But you are right, too heavy.

I have never been in the raft. Just afraid.

[westlawn5554X]

Interesting subject as I love survival design as a hobby...

Try softex or tampon wings as bandage its cheaper easy carry and purchase almost everywhere in the world, anti-bacteri and sponge out bad blood and stay free... before its ever expire your cousin already snatch it from you as a test sample.

I mean a lot of stuff from common stuff can be use for survival as for me... I my survival boat is far too big...:)

[Kay9]

Intresting idea on the tampons. Im about to have 2 rafts repacked I think I will add some. Thanks.

[longliner45]

interesting subject ,,you can go 3 or 4 days without water ,,if you are asian ,,2 days without food if you are western about 25,,,my own philosophy is learn to hunt ,,fish and find water,keep your reservse to buy time ,,this is a matter I have some expieriance of,I spent 4 years in US army 7th sf,,10 yrs on commercial fishing boats,,raised on a farm in ohio,,learn now what creatures and plants are edible in your regine,,,,this businiss of running to the hills if something happens is well,, bull crap,most will starve ,,you must learn to protect yourself from the elements,,,and dont forget your weapons,,,,,,or the skill of making your own weapons ,,the first aid stuff posted before is good to know also ,,,,but the bottom line is ,,no kit ,homemade or store bought will save you ,,you gotta save yourself ,,,longliner

[enjoysurvival]

Hi, Longliner ,

Totally agree with you to learn survival techniques and I recommend that every sea player has to attend training course. I made myself arrow and bow from primitive material, design axe blade and super lightweight survival kits.
( I am designing a hand held light weight portable fish spear gun instead of the long ones available in market )

You must have read about the Steve Collahan case. At sea is totally different from land. You could made nothing from sea , or you could catch a fish by hand and use the bones to make a hook , using your threads of clothing or shoes lace as fish line .
There are a lot of simple survival kits available and good enough for survival.

My point is...... why so bad ? Steve Collahan also brougt spear gun that helped him to survive ( but worsely spear a hole to the raft ) .

I will pack the sony computer into the ESK and recalculate the total loading.
The givens raft should handle extra weight.

[westlawn5554X]

Intresting idea on the tampons. Im about to have 2 rafts repacked I think I will add some. Thanks.

Err... I used to be a golden arrow ranked scout..... non militar of course.

I prefer scout techque then militar version.

[MikeJohns]

An important item in your grab bag is a hand-held VHF radio then you can call in most vessels that you observe. With a small hand compass you can give a vessel or SAR aircraft a bearing.
A strobe light is superior to anything else at night.

[Kay9]

I also carry a plastic sextant in my kit along with the HO tables in nimature so I can at least do an LOP off the sun.

[gww25]

Don't know if it's still available but an old of mine set himself and a partner adrift in a raft from San Francisco and ended up in Hawaii. Try a search for George Sigler and Charles Gore. I can't remember the name of the book but he ran Safety and Survival designs out of Alameda for several years. They bring up some very interesting points in their experience that we normally don't think about like self-winding watches that don't wind since after a few days your not moving anymore. Also some good first hand experiences with various life-rafts, most aren't fit to be used.

"Experiment in Survival" Thanks guys.

[longliner45]

while we are on the subject,,,,every boat should have an (epeirb ) nominclature ?all I know is it calls the coastys and tell them your exact geogrphical location. and life boat / all the other things are in relation to where you sail or boat,,if you are going into a bay or lake ,,you need a raft ,,if you are going offshore ,you need a raft ,,a few gallons of water ,and some food,,and all this can be very ,,Inexpensive,,you can make your own raft for less than 100 us,,and thats in USA,,if you live in a different economy ,probably cheaper. one should have at least 2 vhf radios ,,,never fails,one will give in a situation, ,,gps or loran ,,need 2 of em,,,,and oh yea ,,take a marker and lable the cans of food so you dont have to eat mystery meals( been there done that)thare is a miriad of things o consider ,but a good captain will do his best to protect his crew,,and for those of you who just gotta go to the cold places ,,thermo gear,,,,,with that said ,do your home work ,,in the gulf of mexico ,,(conciderd subtropic) in april or may you have 6 minuets before hypo thermia sets in,,,if you go overboard...remember currents from cold places,,ext ext.I cant jam it all into one thread ,,,,be vigalant.......longliner

[DanishBagger]

Loran? Does that still exist?

[longliner45]

danish ,,Im just an old man ,,,,,,,,,but I think it does still,,longliner

[Kay9]

No LORAN is gone. Its EPIRB Emergancy Position Indicating Radio Beacon. Some things to know about EPIRB. 2 Sats listen for it. It takes each sat approx 4-6 hours to make one orbit. If your EPIRB is not equiped with optional GPS the sats will need at least 3-4 passes over the top of you to pin point your position. Each EPIRB MUST be registered to the CURRENT owner. If it is not and it gose off it will likely be ignored.

[Kay9]

Forgot to mention. The sats that listem is SARSAT and COSPAS. One American one RUSSIAN. Just an FYI

[longliner45]

thanks now I really feel old,,,,longliner

[DanishBagger]

Sorry :(

[marshmat]

If you are using a 121.5/243 MHz EPIRB, then as Kay9 says, you are dependent on either SARSAT or COSPAS picking up your signal. There is a 4 to 6 hour delay (sometimes as much as 12 hours) for these polar-orbit satellites to fix your location, usually to within 25 km, and forward the distress call accordingly.
These are outdated units, and COSPAS-SARSAT is not expected to continue detecting 121.5/243 EPIRB service past 2008.

Modern EPIRBS use the internationally reserved 406 MHz band. This is the same band used by an aircraft's ELT unit and is detected by the GEOSTAR satellite network including GOES geostationary weather satellites as well as COSPAS-SARSAT satellites. (Note that a GOES satellite can only tell the Coasties who's EPIRB went off, a COSPAS-SARSAT fix is needed to triangulate the actual location.) Most also transmit a 121.5 signal for search helicopters to home in on directly. Typical accuracy is 2-5 km once a COSPAS-SARSAT fix is made. Better ones now include an on-board GPS and will transmit exact co-ordinates along with the 406 signal.

More gory technical details at http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/marcomms/gmdss/epirb.htm

Whatever EPIRB you buy, register the darn thing! Without an entry in the database for the Coast Guard to check the signal against, the unit's not nearly as useful. You have just spent $900 or whatever on this thing that is meant to save your life when your boat sinks, and it costs you exactly $0.00 to register it and make it useful.

[longliner45]

danish,I still have the mind of a 12 year old,,,,dont sweat the small stuff laddy,,longliner

[enjoysurvival]

Where the EPIRB to be placed ?
How to make sure to be with you always?

[DanishBagger]

Ah, good, LL :-)


Enjoysurvival,

You ask a somewhat simple question: Where to put the EPIRB. Now, that is all well, but in the context of the opinions you have already publicised, I find that rather worrying. Nonetheless, I think it's a good question in it's own right:

You can get epirbs (and liferafts, for that matter) to float free when the boat sinks. Me, I'd never go that route. I don't want things to float free unless I say it can. I don't want mistakes to happen.
I'd rather put it in the liferaft, or even better: The grab bag. The reason for this is, that I'll be able to test it without inflating the raft, and I'll be able to use it, without taking to the raft. So, grab bag for me. But some might think otherwise, or even buy a couple or three of them.

But on to something else:

I have now read all your posts, and this has become outright ridiculous.
Most of your posts are about taking computers, MP3-players, cameras and what have you - all in an effort to make someone's survival "enjoyable". Hell, even your nick says so. A survival situation is not scout camp, even if you think it's just like that, or somehow can be like that.

Somewhere along the line, you must have missed the point when it comes to survival: Survival can't be "enjoyable", and if you think it is, then it's bloody well not survival, then it's a primitive holiday. When you are fighting for you life, you don't want to spend all your energy writing blogs, playing games, listen to music, warming batteries and what else you have suggested. You want to bloody hell preserve your energy – surprise! - in order to survive.

This one in particular I consider to be dangerous advice:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=172845&postcount=18


Also, your notion that a life raft is "primitive" because it is small, and the great idea that came from that notion - namely, that a single person should have the space of four person can cost someone their life. A liferaft is small so that people can conserve heat - it's not a crappy sun lounge boat.

In that thread, you are even talking gore tex. You ought to look up "survival suit" if you want to give someone good advice going to the arctic. And on that note: You expect him to use body heat to have the batteries going for all your toys? Computers, cameras, musik players. Pfft!

Sure it would be nice to have a real life boat from a ferry, but all that space without a heater, plus the nuisance of dumping it from the foredeck of a 40-footer might result in troubles.

– Andre

Sorry for the rant, people, but seriously …

[Kay9]

He he. Danish, this is why I was asking at the beginning if he was serious. However with that said I think the thread has some merit. As to float free, its not quiet that simple, My rafts and EPIRBs are all float free with hydrostatic releases, I choose 5 Foot hydrostats as I dont want to have to wait too long for the raft to come up, but you can choose any depth up to 200 feet. They have convinced me they are reliable.

I have read of more then a couple of cases where people have had to abandon ship/aircraft in very high winds and when they inflated the raft it simply blew away before they could get in. It just gose to show you cannot preplan everything and if bad luck is yours you had better come up with another to survive.

[masalai]

Well put Danish. There are sadly, some dick-heads who are a waste of the breath they use. Although my competencies come well short of yours, and try to limit my comment to areas of my experience and too often in rebuke as befits a grumpy old bastard. Surely there is some common sense left somewhere??? in these defectives, to have survived to some level of adulthood.

I would love to find the forum Frosty is dispensing home grown wisdom.

I was a volunteer in the "Australian Volunteer Coastguard" which serves generally rescue such idiots from about 40km offshore. I found that absolute stupidity is not the preserve of Americans I am afraid. The coastguard here is very active in training - much at no charge or minimal participant expense and providing a "SAR watch", weather advice and many other services.

[DanishBagger]

He he. Danish, this is why I was asking at the beginning if he was serious. However with that said I think the thread has some merit. As to float free, its not quiet that simple, My rafts and EPIRBs are all float free with hydrostatic releases, I choose 5 Foot hydrostats as I dont want to have to wait too long for the raft to come up, but you can choose any depth up to 200 feet. They have convinced me they are reliable.
Yup, I know people trust that. I guess I'm just not convinced. But it's a choice. One has to choose the thing that seems to work the best (in an situation that'll hopefully stay imaginary).

I have read of more then a couple of cases where people have had to abandon ship/aircraft in very high winds and when they inflated the raft it simply blew away before they could get in. It just gose to show you cannot preplan everything and if bad luck is yours you had better come up with another to survive.
I agree completely.
My plan (in short form), would be to trigger the EPIRB put it back in the grab bag, and launch the (attached) life raft. Now, I'd have a knife on the liferaft (one of those seat belt cutters, of course, both in the raft, and at the place where the life raft is attached. And only when it goes down for real, will I get into the raft, and then cut the string.

This (to me, that is) seems like the proper way –*at least it is simple. Hell, I don't even trust automatically inflating life vests. The reasoning behind that is that you may not want it to inflate in an overturned hull (look at which people die in air plane crashes on the sea – it's the ones that inflate their life vests before they're out of the plane).

But, yes, this thread has its merits, because it gets people thinking. But I do consider his "advice" to be downright life-threatening.

[Kay9]

OK I have to comment on the auto inflating Life jackets. Up untill 3 months ago I loved them. I bought them for all my crew on both boats. I have 2 Commercial fishing boats on the Oregon Coast. I also run the Vessel Assist boat here.

3 Months ago I was triing to take a 45' sport fishermen in an alongside tow on the hip. My boat is 22'. While I was reaching over the gunnel of the sport fishermen, my life jacket inflated, surprised the hell out of me and I fell off the boat. I have since replaced all of my auto inflate jackets for float coats.

[DanishBagger]

Although my competencies come well short of yours, and try to limit my comment to areas of my experience […]

Haha, I really can't say I have much "experience" in survival at sea. Luckily. But I think it pays to have a plan, and it pays to think about what is needed in a given survival situation: Shelter, Heat, Water, communication/navigation, food.


I would love to find the forum Frosty is dispensing home grown wisdom.

Me too, that'd be great fun. We could all chime in :D


I was a volunteer in the "Australian Volunteer Coastguard" […]

And you claim to have less experience in survival than me! Haha, good one, ye bastard!! :p

[masalai]

You know him better, send him a PM for the forum & cc to me by PM. We don't want everyone to vacate this forum.

Jokes are now over 1000 posts!

[DanishBagger]

Are you calling me a joke!!?

(haha, just kidding - I have just gone over 1000 posts too).


Frosty is reading this thread, so perhaps he will be kind enough to pm us both? Frosty, will you?

Even if Frosty was to do it publicly, it wouldn't matter much. I doubt most of us would leave this forum for a forum about bikes. But perhaps that's just me. :-)

Edit: Err, I somehow imagined him having posted to this thread. He hasn't. I'll PM him.

[DanishBagger]

Kay,

I have to ask you about this:

I choose 5 Foot hydrostats as I dont want to have to wait too long for the raft to come up, but you can choose any depth up to 200 feet. They have convinced me they are reliable.


Am I stupid, but hydrostats work by pressure, right? What gets me about that, is that if a wave slams on top of your boat, or other wise build pressure, will it not be released then? How do they go about that?

Anyway, I'd be nervous as hell while the boat's going down ("will it release?" and "What will I do if it doesn't?").

[masalai]

Happy "chap-cheng" Danish, Oops that is my rusty Hokien for 10,000 (read bastard in "son of") not that for you just 1000 posts. Onya

[DanishBagger]

Thanks, Masali. I think …

I'm going to get me one of those fisherman's float-coats, btw. I thought they were much dearer.

[masalai]

Better still, sail down here to the warmth of the tropics/sub-tropics? And on your way pick up Frosty so he can learn to fly and become closer to his God.

[DanishBagger]

Nope, I can't think in the heat. I'd sooner be wearing survival suits and googles, if I have to choose.

Also, I think one should learn from mythology: Ikarus, need I say more? ("Nudge, nudge").

[masalai]

Year wax melts easily, but then let it run out your ear and feel clear headed. Of feathers & fluff, offer to anoint the lovely ladiess with coconut oil, an excellent recreational enterprise, all touchy feeley & an acceptable social activity?

Before the 70's there used to be an old bloke who had a stuffed bird on his hat & called himself the "mutton bird man" claiming to have some mutton-bird oil in his suntan mix which he sprayed and smoother for $2 a shot. Plenty of franchises available - see me for information!

[DanishBagger]

Year wax melts easily, but then let it run out your ear and feel clear headed.

Well, if it's only cleared out once a year, anyone would feel clear-headed.


Of feathers & fluff, offer to anoint the lovely ladiess with coconut oil, an excellent recreational enterprise, all touchy feeley & an acceptable social activity?

Guess so, but I'd still prefer sailing in the cold. Noone around, especially those pesky water ski boats and other day runners. No sun burns, no sweaty people and sticky (from the inside) clothes.


Before the 70's there used to be an old bloke who had a stuffed bird on his hat & called himself the "mutton bird man" claiming to have some mutton-bird oil in his suntan mix which he sprayed and smoother for $2 a shot. Plenty of franchises available - see me for information!

Haha, if you knew me, that would be the last thing in the world I'd do. I'd much prefer to a trapper somewhere. Okay, bad examply, because that might actually be fun for a while, but you get the drift.

[Kay9]

Well my boat is 38" and 31" Respectivily Both have a house on them thats roughly 8-10' above the waterline so if a wave is big enough to put the equavalent of pressure as 5' of water on the top of my pilothouse where the rafts are stored, Im going to most likely need my raft. If I dont. then I got really lucky, and most likely my raft is on the back deck. Yea I might lose it, but I would rather lose a $2500 raft then not have it when I need it.

Now if I have time to launch the raft myself, all I have to do is go to the top of the pilothouse and hit the slip link and I can self launch my raft. But I went with the hydrostats, for just the reason as I might not have time. Each raft is tethered to the boat by a 200' line with a 10lb "weak link" The idea here is if the boat sinks the raft stays attached to the sunken boat and dosnt blow away. If the boat sinks in more then 200' of water. the pressure of the inflated raft is supposed to be 800lbs, more then enough to break the "weak link".

[masalai]

I do not know this enthusiasm to deploy "life-rafts". Most well found boats I have encountered would encourage me to stay where I was. I do not fancy bobbing around trying to scramble onto a bouncing inflated thingy except as a LAST resort and my boat was gone. At the time of prayer and "should the captain go down with his ship" I would attach my lifeline to the liferaft & still wait! and be a little dryer and warmer.

[DanishBagger]

Well my boat is 38" and 31" Respectivily Both have a house on them thats roughly 8-10' above the waterline so if a wave is big enough to put the equavalent of pressure as 5' of water on the top of my pilothouse where the rafts are stored, Im going to most likely need my raft.
I don't think so (assuming it's properly built, which I take for granted). If a wave can hit it (I'm thinking your house swaying from side to side, and getting hit by a big wave), then it doesn't take much speed before you have the equivalent pressure of a depth of five feet in still water.

If I dont then I got really luck and most likely my raft is on the back deck. Yea I might lose it, but I would rater lose a $2500 raft then not have it when I need it.

Just to be clear, I am not playing on loosing it with my solution either. It's at least just as likely as my solution will have it be there when I need it as yours. In fact, personally, I fint it more likely that mine will, but my point is, you choosing to use an automatic version is not the logic way of ensuring it is there when you need it. Logic would dictate that you use a release when either the raft is too big/too heavy for the wimpiest crew member, and/or if you're worried she might go down faster than you (the crew) can react, as you say.


Now if I have time to launch the raft myself, all I have to do is go to the top of the pilothouse and hit the slip link and I can self launch my raft. But I went with the hydrostats, for just the reason as I minght not have time. Each raft is teathered to the boat by a 200' line with a 10lb "weak link" The idea here is if the boat sinks the raft stays attached to the sunken boat and dosnt blow away. If the boat sinks in more then 200; of water the pressure of the inflated raft is supposed to be 800lbs, more then enough to break the "weak link".


That actually brings me to another point. That weak link - imagine the raft being tethered, filled with water and your boat (or the raft) jerking wildly about.

Further, about thoese hydrostats: Any chance something like that will either corrode, or get jammed by salt water?

I don't know – I'm not saying my solution is better, I just find it a bit more trustworthy, even if it is a bit slower. I'd rather keep my liferaft, in as much as it will be there when I need it. I gather, that if a liferaft is prone to going overboard, it will do it in the worst possible scenario.

[DanishBagger]

I do not know this enthusiasm to deploy "life-rafts". Most well found boats I have encountered would encourage me to stay where I was. I do not fancy bobbing around trying to scramble onto a bouncing inflated thingy except as a LAST resort and my boat was gone. At the time of prayer and "should the captain go down with his ship" I would attach my lifeline to the liferaft & still wait! and be a little dryer and warmer.


Haha, noone is "enthusiastic" about deploying life rafts. It's the last defence. You know, where your only other defence is the clothes you're wearing.
I think I even mentioned that somewhere - that I'd rather do it myself, as the very last step, just before she went under. Hell, I am thinking doing this either alone, or with one significant other. No 6 person crews. I don't like sailing like that.

I don't think anyone but "enjoysurvival" is enthusiastic about a situation like that: He's propably imagining that it's like waiting for the coach to the café – plenty of time for his latest Sony PSP-game.

[Kay9]

I take no offense at your suggestions. I rather enjoy looking at all sides of any discussion. My first response is I have to set up my rafts this way, as the USCG requires it this way. However even with that said I still prefeer this way over yours. If my crew is incapacitated for any reason the raft stands a chance to come up on its own. The hydrostats, are inspected and generally replaced every 2 years. The rafts are also inspected every 2 years, USCG requires this as well, but its a good idea. The modern hydrostats are mostly plastic and stainless so with a 2 year maintaince cycle I have a lot of faith in them. It is true that the weak link could be broken after the vessel has sunk but I would rather that then have the raft drug under by a sinking boat. Im not saying your way is wrong either. I can see why you would want to self deploy. However if you cant. If you only have seconds, what is your backup?

I can self deploy if I have time, and if I cant, I can at least hope my hydrostats will work.

[Kay9]

Enjoysurvival has read a book about being in a life raft at Lattitude 12N for 30 days. I have read the same book. Its generally 1-3' swells there and your biggest problem is water and saltwater soars. What he dosnt realize is just how violent a sinking can be, on both the body and soal. USCG says that 90% of the people that die in a boat sinking die in the first 30 mins. Due to mental anxiety. The stress of suddenly being thrown into a situation in which you have to give up all controll, is more then a lot of people are ready for, thus they give up and die.

Short answer he has no idea what he is talking about.

[DanishBagger]

I take no offense at your suggestions. I rather enjoy looking at all sides of any discussion. My first response is I have to set up my rafts this way, as the USCG requires it this way. However even with that said I still prefeer this way over yours. If my crew is incapacitated for any reason the raft stands a chance to come up on its own. The hydrostats, are inspected and generally replaced every 2 years. The rafts are also inspected every 2 years, USCG requires this as well, but its a good idea. The modern hydrostats are mostly plastic and stainless so with a 2 year maintaince cycle I have a lot of faith in them. It is true that the weak link could be broken after the vessel has sunk but I would rather that then have the raft drug under by a sinking boat. Im not saying your way is wrong either. I can see why you would want to self deploy. However if you cant. If you only have seconds, what is your backup?

I can self deploy if I have time, and if I cant, I can at least hope my hydrostats will work.


Good points.

My back up is actually the raft. The first line of defense in a sinking is a waterproof bulkhead. It's really far back (actually the boat is divided between the cockpit and the interior (no interior underneath the cockpit).
So unless I'm sailed down by a ship and totally wrecked in an instant, I plan on a bit more time. It may be optimistic, but sailing in a small (very small so far) engineless boat (deck is low compared to yours) mean I will not trust the automatic releases. A huge wave sweeping the deck, and off the raft goes (or so I fear), and the next thing you know, you need. Or, if I did it your way, it might still be attached, but working like a drogue. I don't want that, unless it's controlled.


Also, I have found I prefer sailing alone, and if I get unconscious, I can't see much need for it anyways. Fatalistic, perhaps, but still the reality.

If I ever get my gf to sail with on longer trips, then I might (but very unlikely) revise my plain. The thing is, we don't have lifelines (the ones with stanchions, just in case I translated that wrongly), and although I know that is yet another pandora's box we shall not open right now (I hope), so it will be rather easy to deploy the raft.

Other than that, I prefer sailing in cool to cold weather, and in february the water is pretty damn cold hereabouts and further north. I will do anything not to go into the water. I am pretty thin, and I am quite sure that hypothermia would set in rather quickly.

My hope is, that if ever need to into a raft, that I will have time to take thermarests etc. in order to insulate the bottom. Other things aside, hypothermia is a strong reason for somehow being able to use a rigid bottom – Not so sure about I will want to launch a heavy dinghy in rough seas, though.


However, I do believe this is a matter of choice, and that we each have our own ways of doing it. The first line of defence is having a plan. A good one. And I do believe we both have that.

If I could afford a much, much bigger boat, I'd have three or four watertight bulkheads, but still have a manually deployed life raft. I'd upgrade on that front instead.

[DanishBagger]

Enjoysurvival has read a book about being in a life raft at Lattitude 12N for 30 days. I have read the same book. Its generally 1-3' swells there and your biggest problem is water and saltwater soars. What he dosnt realize is just how violent a sinking can be, on both the body and soal. USCG says that 90% of the people that die in a boat sinking die in the first 30 mins. Due to mental anxiety. The stress of suddenly being thrown into a situation in which you have to give up all controll, is more then a lot of people are ready for, thus they give up and die.

Short answer he has no idea what he is talking about.

Yep, read that too fifteen or twenty years ago or so too. Callahan and 74 days, right?

[DanishBagger]

I must be tired, words missing and misspellings galore.

[masalai]

G'nite all. Frosty, yew got it rong G drinks, I don't....... Danish has too much coffee & rum? Kay9 on speed? no not really, good at cut'n'paste like me?

[Kay9]

I think thats the guy. 3 solar stills and could only keep one working. Broke his spear gun and hand speared a dorado while putting a hole in his raft. Good book, but I would have to say ideal conditions to be in a raft. Im at 42N Latt so Im with you, if I have to go into the water I dont think I would last long even in my raft.

[Kay9]

lol Speed and RUM have to counter balance :) Nite.

[DanishBagger]

I think thats the guy. 3 solar stills and could only keep one working. Broke his spear gun and hand speared a dorado while putting a hole in his raft. Good book, but I would have to say ideal conditions to be in a raft. Im at 42N Latt so Im with you, if I have to go into the water I dont think I would last long even in my raft.

Yup, the solar stills ring a bell. That is the guy. Made "friends" with a fish and so forth.

I wonder if one could make a canopy, just like the fighter planes, but the difference being that the canopy could be used as a hard-bottomed dinghy. And just like the tinker (I believe it was) have an inflatable, insulated roof.

No, not really, but it's fun to play. But I'm taking your clue when it comes to fishing float coats. I thought they cost twice or even three times as much. One of those plus a pair of bibs for me this christmas (paying it myself, though).

[DanishBagger]

G'nite all. Frosty, yew got it rong G drinks, I don't....... Danish has too much coffee & rum? Kay9 on speed? no not really, good at cut'n'paste like me?


Nah, too little coffee. I have been awake all night, talking to you tossers instead of roaming the city for eye candy. By choice, even.

And people wonder why I prefer to be alone …

[enjoysurvival]

Hi, all

Reading different events inspires different thoughts.
Anyone tell me what is the prerequisite of preparing survival kits. and why .loading ? money ?planning ?

If the preparation is good, survival becomes enjoyable ( of course ,this wording may become ridiculous because the word itself is a paradox , perhaps I have to use another word later)

Why struggle to survive ? very simple , your equipment is bad ,the preparation is bad , you make yourself in a survival situation because of bad kits, bad preparation !!!

It is a concept of why have to fight so bitterly by bringing just kilos if supplies.

You know why I ask where to place the EPIRB ! The point is not I do not know where to be placed but I have to knock the sea players head. Most of
them don't care , some of them , as mentioned before , do not know what it is and not even register !!!!

Where to place ? in the raft ? in the bedroom? , on the control room ? on the deck ? It is a very serious question ! How to make sure the device be with you ? Just like you have a million dollar but you don't know where the key is !


I am serious in preparing the kits . Are you ? My point is definitely simple .... if you have good preparation , you don't have to use too much effort to fight for survival.
Why just several cans of water? , why 2 packs of biscuits ? Is the raft would sink for some more 20 Litres of water and two bottles of co-ca cola ?

What is most important during the survival period ?
Food ? Water ? Yes , of course but most importatntly........OPTIMISTIC ,POSITIVE THINKING.

why take camera with you ? not a picnic , but to remind that , "hey , take some photos for your sons to see how I experience somthing different"

Turning from "fighting to survive" to "securing survived"

Let's put in a simulated case , ESK and "standard kits" in two screens

12:00 am , storm attacked suddenly and boat to sink, EPIRB lost
12:01 am , raft deployed and all ESK caught on board "standard kits" also on board ( if lost , no story ...12:02 am , still shivering , hand shaking ,wet , storm still horrably blowing
12:25 am , still shivering .clothes changed , deck with several inch of water ..
7:00 am , still blowing , 5 ft waves..................very warmth with the suggested suit. a bit hungry , I have my beef and biscuits breakfast , can fruit , calculating the supplies , feeling safe.thinking why not more !

day 2 , though have sufficient food , start preparing to fishing , rods work well with bait............thinking why pocket EPIRB is not invented


Equipped in wilderness is totally different from at sea because of loading.

My points still valid ...
1. why fighting for survival , why 2 cans of water ? why...
2. How to design some device to make sure all the equipped be with you.

Well , core-tex may not be appropriate , polar suit may fit ... You started to think about the issue.

Day 5 1:00 pm , ESK serve well , fishing , not so easily caught even with fishing rod and bait , coca cola all consumed , desalinator works well , mp3 with radio works well , solar charger works well ........., though cold at night , sleeping bag kept good warmth . no time to play games because too busy to desalinate water and repair the raft and fishing. self made spear gun broken because of manufacturing defect . ( regret not to buy a better one)

Day 6 , I found myself totally not enjoying the survival, because....

indeed , if EPIRB , GPS , Radio ,Satellite phone are with me , I should be in Miami beach..................

[DanishBagger]

Wow, this is like Gamage being drunk. I won't give you the long answer now (I will go to sleep after I have finished eating, but you're making assumptions and jabbing blindly at what to do. And at the same time you recognize you know shyte about survival, you are trying to tell people that what information they have gathered (and chosen from) is wrong. Funnily enough, very few on these boards make these decisions light-heartedly, it has been researched thouroughly, and choices have been made.

What you're saying is that none of us, and in fact noone that plans this for a living is "getting it". Your solution: Bring toys. YOu cannot seriously be that ignorant.

Have you ever been lost? I was – in NZ. Yes, yes, I was stupid, but from the moment I realised I had no clue where I was (and I don't walk very well), it became a survival situation. Yes, you may well laugh, but it's about the mindset.

You do not go about putting on your walkman, and play a feisty game on your PSP, rig your solar panels to charge your batteries (which, btw, you want to keep warm, otherwise they won't work - so you have to heat them with body heat), types a few blog entries and upload it, just for the hell of it. YOur top priorities is either being saved or finding your way to safety. Which one you choose depends on how much water, food, shelter and which communication you're able to establish.

Equipped in wilderness is totally different from at sea because of loading.

Yes, apart from the desert or some really, really cold places or at high altitude, the wilderness is much more forgiving.

The loading part is nonsense.


P.S. There are aready some rather nifty, very small 416mhz epirbs available. If you can afford them. Secondly, who's to say you'll be wearing the jacket or the lifevest it's attached to?


Yes, that was the short version. I have finished eating.
You're simply way over your head here. Not with me, but with the subject – you haven't got a clue, yet you want to bring nonessentials instead of essentials. Think how much that "kit" of yours will weigh and which volume it will have, and think how much water and nutrition you could fit instead. But feel free to go ahead, but please try it first yourself before you give out that dangerous advice. With any luck, that advice will disappear the moment you receive your personal Darwin award.

"enjoying the survival" pfft!

[DanishBagger]

To hell with it. I couldn't sleep before I ended what I started. That's really an annoying thing (to me). But here goes:

Welcome to the long version, ES – you might want to make a cup of coffee, it will be a while.


Reading different events inspires different thoughts.
Anyone tell me what is the prerequisite of preparing survival kits. and why .loading ? money ?planning ?

As I have mentioned in my former post, and others have mentioned as well: You know nothing about survival but have a single book, and think it is like making camp. What the hell do you think you do when you prepare for a survival situation? You think needs. You think "Maslow's hierarchy of needs, then you plan. And in that planning you think KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid), you have to think what will happen in a given situation, and what is your back-up plan. What will happen next and so on and so forth. And at each step, what is the back up plan. And how does it tie into the rest of it?. While doing so, you also have to take into account things like lightning. What if the epirb is fried along with the rest of your tools? Many of these parametres change with where you're going. Many don't.

You then ask about "loading". Well, how much can you lift? Don't think that those davits will work for you.

If the preparation is good, survival becomes enjoyable ( of course ,this wording may become ridiculous because the word itself is a paradox , perhaps I have to use another word later)

"Later"!? You shouldn't have used it in the first place. Get real. It has been ridiculous to use that term to begin with. Almost as ridiculous as your stupid ideas about survival is about passing time in an enjoyable fashion. It's bloody hell about surviving until you can be saved or until you can save yourself (i.e. the longest time possible).


Why struggle to survive ? very simple , your equipment is bad ,the preparation is bad , you make yourself in a survival situation because of bad kits, bad preparation !!!


Says someone who has admitted to not even knowing where to begin on planning a survival kit, someone who has no clue as to what expect, because he hasn't bothered doing the research and from there begun to make choices.

It is a concept of why have to fight so bitterly by bringing just kilos if supplies.

If I understand you correctly, you want to bring more than mere kilos? You do realize that the next step up is tonnes, right? That's right, 1000 kilogrammes.
"Fight bitterly". No, frankly, I hope not to, by _preparing_ properly.


You know why I ask where to place the EPIRB ! The point is not I do not know where to be placed but I have to knock the sea players head.
Well, I gave you a few options. Think about it. There isn't an end all answer, but there are many ridiculous suggestions (I will return to them).

Most of them don't care , some of them , as mentioned before , do not know what it is and not even register !!!!

I see you have learned that tidbit from this very thread. Yes, it is stupid to buy such an expensive thing without registrering. But I have a hard time believing you actually know what it is (for real), and that, as any other technology, it can break, be damaged or simpy malfunction.

Back to placement:
Where to place ? in the raft ? in the bedroom? , on the control room ? on the deck ? It is a very serious question ! How to make sure the device be with you ? Just like you have a million dollar but you don't know where the key is !

Yes, I see your predicament. But where to put the epirb depends on your plan, your boat and preference. But frankly, you're suggesting "bedroom"!? That is something in a house. Even I know that. But that aside, do you seriously think that it would be smart placing it in a cabin, off hand? Technology won't save your arse, planning and prepping will.


I am serious in preparing the kits . Are you ?
What the **** do you think!? I have never been more serious. I'd hate for someone to share your Darwin Award unwittingly.
And let's get this straight: You're not serious at all. If you were, you'd have been doing some research. It sound more like you have been trawling the West Marine-catalogue.


My point is definitely simple .... if you have good preparation , you don't have to use too much effort to fight for survival.
Hmm, but you have no preparation, no plan, no nothing. All you have is an opinion based on zilch research, only conjecture.


Why just several cans of water? , why 2 packs of biscuits ? Is the raft would sink for some more 20 Litres of water and two bottles of co-ca cola ?

You cannot honestly think anyone only plans to bring "several cans"? Further, you seriously don't want to bring your life saver (water) in cans.

What is most important during the survival period ?
Food ? Water ? Yes , of course but most importatntly........OPTIMISTIC ,POSITIVE THINKING.

Yes to the last bit, that is important. I call it a "will to live". The reason for this, is that you "optimistic, positive thinking" implies that if you just think "everything will be fine, we will be saved" which is a very close cousin to apathy.

But, and you might be surprised. Food aren't _that_ important. But water is. How long do you think you can survive without water?

why take camera with you ? not a picnic , but to remind that , "hey , take some photos for your sons to see how I experience somthing different"

Yes, and here's the crux: As I have stated earlier, you think "survival" equals "primitive camping". If it does then it isn't survival. It's not that I believe one has to do things the hard way, but when you go camping with an axe, a cantine, a map and a gps, it's simpy just "roughing it". In a survival situation, you life is actually at stake. You are in a real risk of losing it! Get that in your head! You're not there to report an experience, you're there only because you want to survive. That is not a prioriroty. That is the only goal. And you better be prepared for it. Otherwise you won't be able to tell the story afterwards. Who gives a shyte about your photos?

Turning from "fighting to survive" to "securing survived"

You really have to be a wanna be academic, if you think that you have covered grounds in that direction.

Let's put in a simulated case , ESK and "standard kits" in two screens

12:00 am , storm attacked suddenly and boat to sink, EPIRB lost
12:01 am , raft deployed and all ESK caught on board "standard kits" also on board ( if lost , no story ...12:02 am , still shivering , hand shaking ,wet , storm still horrably blowing
12:25 am , still shivering .clothes changed , deck with several inch of water ..
7:00 am , still blowing , 5 ft waves..................very warmth with the suggested suit. a bit hungry , I have my beef and biscuits breakfast , can fruit , calculating the supplies , feeling safe.thinking why not more !

day 2 , though have sufficient food , start preparing to fishing , rods work well with bait............thinking why pocket EPIRB is not invented

Already adressed some of this. You're still an idjit for thinking that documenting for someone else should even be a priority.


Equipped in wilderness is totally different from at sea because of loading.

Yes, very much harder, usually, and other methods. Just like you need other methods of survival in a hurricane on land vs sea, mountaneering, the desert in antarctica vs Sahara, vs. greenland, vs. the canadian forest, the Florida swamps and so on. But not because of loading.

My points still valid ...

Your points have never been valid. Not by a long shot.

1. why fighting for survival , why 2 cans of water ? why...
2. How to design some device to make sure all the equipped be with you.

O course you want all the planned equipment to be with you. But you don't want to make a plan that includes taking half the boat.

Well , core-tex may not be appropriate , polar suit may fit ...
Well, I said survival suit. different beasts. When I hear "polar suit" I think of big North Face Jackets and feather-bibs.

You started to think about the issue.

Well, yes, insomuch that I have already thought of what to wear. I live in a cold place (not as cold as Norway or Svalbard, though). Further I have done my research.


Day 5 1:00 pm , ESK serve well , fishing , not so easily caught even with fishing rod and bait , coca cola all consumed

Here I have to interrupt you. First of all, I assume those will be cans, as you mentioned before? In a higly corrosive environment?
Secondly, and much more important: You want to drink sugary water to keep hydrated? That can kill you as fast as drinking all that good salt water that surround you. As I have mentioned before though: Be my guest, but please try it yourself before putting it out here as something to do.
You might want to research dehydration and nutrition a bit.


, desalinator works well
Good, you're lucky.
, mp3 with radio works well Yes, and while you're sitting there listening to "the radio" or your favourite Primus number, happily slapping yourself on your sunburned forehead, a ship sails by. But you don't notice it.

But then again, it doesn't matter, because your having a good experience you want to tell your grandson, and it's only a matter of time before it stops functioning, and soon there will be another ship, right?

, solar charger works well .....
Yes, let's hope so. Otherwise you will have used your battery supply on the stereo, that could be used to run the VHF instead.

...., though cold at night , sleeping bag kept good warmth
You wish. Make yourself a hammock out of a tarp, poor salt water in the bottom, and lay there in a storm, when it's pissing down. Then imagine huge waves of salt water slamming down on you while you're there.


. no time to play games because too busy to desalinate water and repair the raft and fishing. self made spear gun broken because of manufacturing defect . ( regret not to buy a better one)
Yes, you should have brought another one, and some more water instead of that crappy battery hungry stereo and the associated batteries.

Day 6 , I found myself totally not enjoying the survival, because....

indeed , if EPIRB , GPS , Radio ,Satellite phone are with me , I should be in Miami beach..................


Ah, I see. That sounds like a splendid plan. You obviously think that a helicopter can lift you off from anywhere.

Have you ever sailed? Ever been on a boat?

[westlawn5554X]

I agree completely.
My plan (in short form), would be to trigger the EPIRB put it back in the grab bag, and launch the (attached) life raft. Now, I'd have a knife on the liferaft (one of those seat belt cutters, of course, both in the raft, and at the place where the life raft is attached. And only when it goes down for real, will I get into the raft, and then cut the string.

This (to me, that is) seems like the proper way –*at least it is simple. Hell, I don't even trust automatically inflating life vests. The reasoning behind that is that you may not want it to inflate in an overturned hull (look at which people die in air plane crashes on the sea – it's the ones that inflate their life vests before they're out of the plane).

But, yes, this thread has its merits, because it gets people thinking. But I do consider his "advice" to be downright life-threatening.

Mmmm... knife can be darn useful, find an electrician knife for cable cutting that can be use for tower climbing, easy drawing yet not fall out of the sheath. It is curve infront without pointy pierce so you dont kill yur only float.

Get a cert. lifejacket gas inflated like the one you stolen from a boeing he...:P or get a foam that last the best variable from 5- 20 hrs as water will degrade the floating foam and lead to your death.

The cold water is your enemy it will draw away every drop of your heat and lifeforce... get geasy calories squeezed food and high sugar stuff... you need it.

Get a H2O filter pipe for unsure water or sea water so u can drink as salt make u more thirsty.

Anything that glow or reflect is best... like my bald head.

Get a water tight black bag that the S.E.A.L. use get your medicine stay dry and not mussy... I found the item in Sear Tech S'pore Beach Rd... get one if you are in Asia.

A diving suit will be a boon with themal warmer with battery or ...

have a flare torch and international beeper buy Breliting watch which already have one as a STD in one of their high end model.

Old trick from pilot.... eating asparagus will boost your urine in drawing attention from fish??? :D

wat else? water proof torch? gramma photo or latest playboy?... just pulling yur leg... Cheers:)

[westlawn5554X]

Enjoysurvival has read a book about being in a life raft at Lattitude 12N for 30 days. I have read the same book. Its generally 1-3' swells there and your biggest problem is water and saltwater soars. What he dosnt realize is just how violent a sinking can be, on both the body and soal. USCG says that 90% of the people that die in a boat sinking die in the first 30 mins. Due to mental anxiety. The stress of suddenly being thrown into a situation in which you have to give up all controll, is more then a lot of people are ready for, thus they give up and die.

Short answer he has no idea what he is talking about.

You mean it is ok to weed in emergency cases?... just kiddin:P

[DanishBagger]

Mmmm... knife can be darn useful, find an electrician knife for cable cutting that can be use for tower climbing, easy drawing yet not fall out of the sheath. It is curve infront without pointy pierce so you dont kill yur only float.

Get a cert. lifejacket gas inflated like the one you stolen from a boeing he...:P or get a foam that last the best variable from 5- 20 hrs as water will degrade the floating foam and lead to your death.

The cold water is your enemy it will draw away every drop of your heat and lifeforce... get geasy calories squeezed food and high sugar stuff... you need it.

Get a H2O filter pipe for unsure water or sea water so u can drink as salt make u more thirsty.

Anything that glow or reflect is best... like my bald head.

Get a water tight black bag that the S.E.A.L. use get your medicine stay dry and not mussy... I found the item in Sear Tech S'pore Beach Rd... get one if you are in Asia.

A diving suit will be a boon with themal warmer with battery or ...

have a flare torch and international beeper buy Breliting watch which already have one as a STD in one of their high end model.

Old trick from pilot.... eating asparagus will boost your urine in drawing attention from fish??? :D

wat else? water proof torch? gramma photo or latest playboy?... just pulling yur leg... Cheers:)


Seriously, some of those are on my list.
Here are some of those:

Small LED-light - red. Two of them.

I made a non-pointy knife meself. But the safety harness cutters are neat for the specific purposes.

My bald head (yes, mine is too, although most of it is shaved) will never be reflecting anything, as too much heat will escape from an uncovered head. The head is first priority, unless I am already in the water.

haha, I just realised you have put a breilting in that list! I wish I could afford any breitling watch. I'm not even close to that.

[westlawn5554X]

I seriously prefer to have a survival boat that is unsinkable without my fancy mini cooper but best mountain bike and diving gear... meaning a boat that can bring you out of a war zone quick and start you in a gentle way...

A clear landing point with the next survival gear for land survival and set for the hidden Shangrila somewhere and hide to regroup...

That is a long term investment ... with cheap rubbish material and clever bargaining... I am scared of war misfire but never back away from a right cause.

I must have drink something expired as I am starting to sound like danishbagger..... :D:D:D

[westlawn5554X]

My bald head (yes, mine is too, although most of it is shaved) will never be reflecting anything, as too much heat will escape from an uncovered head. The head is first priority, unless I am already in the water.

haha, I just realised you have put a breilting in that list! I wish I could afford any breitling watch. I'm not even close to that.

err... get a 3M sticker and put it on yur hat... head is the easy to see from a high point...

Or... get a site safety helmet and but reflective bit all over... look like a 70' disco light ball...

for the watch see ebay... :)

[DanishBagger]

Yes, and 3M-stripes on the inside of the cuffs (well, on the outside of the inside, if you know what I mean).

btw, I already have a dry suit (the diver's suit you mentioned).

[DanishBagger]

I seriously prefer to have a survival boat that is unsinkable without my fancy mini cooper but best mountain bike and diving gear... meaning a boat that can bring you out of a war zone quick and start you in a gentle way...

A clear landing point with the next survival gear for land survival and set for the hidden Shangrila somewhere and hide to regroup...

That is a long term investment ... with cheap rubbish material and clever bargaining... I am scared of war misfire but never back away from a right cause.

Sounds like a plan. At least a better plan than ES.

I must have drink something expired as I am starting to sound like danishbagger..... :D:D:D

The cure for me would be to hit the sack. I guess I could go for a beer instead, though (at this stage, that would propably make me even worse).

[westlawn5554X]

You should watch extreme movee where they have these fancy suit like the DUNE for desert... I think it is cool.

Watching WaterWorld make your mouth feel dry.

err... or u can come along on my hunting session with the local who love blowpipe... you need to fly to get there for the reality check.

[DanishBagger]

the local who love blowpipe... you need to fly to get there for the reality check.


Sorry, but "locals who love blowpipe" sound really not like much fun – especially considering I'm wearing a kilt …

On a serious note, what the hell is "blowpipe", unless it really is what I think it is?

It sounds a bit like that movie with ICE-T (ICE-Cube?) where he is flewn in for a hunt out in wild. Only, it turns out he is the one to be hunted. It's a B-movie :p

[westlawn5554X]

Hmmm... That's my problem I take life too easy, my free time and hobby is surviving my puberty...

Survival is a HUGE topic better stick to boat. Blowpipe is like the thing you kill by dart (poison)

[DanishBagger]

Hmmm... That's my problem I take life too easy, my free time and hobby is surviving my puberty...

Survival is a HUGE topic better stick to boat. Blowpipe is like the thing you kill by dart (poison)


Cool. I tried making one of those as a kid. From a small PVC pipe. Bad choice. It was too long to not bend, which meant it was kind of useless. You had to be two to use the damn thing.

[marshmat]

Commercial vessels around here (ie, the local car ferry) all have hydrostatic releases on the life rafts. Most of the ones I've seen have the release mechanism protected inside a rigid plastic case, about the size of a hockey puck. As I understand it, the case also shields it from dynamic pressure loads, so it is only sensing the static pressure (ie, a wave hitting it won't trip it, but holding it two metres underwater will). You can still deploy them manually if you want to, but they'll also deploy themselves if the boat goes down before you can do so.

[DanishBagger]

Thanks, Matt

From that information, it looks like dynamic pressure is indeed a real problem to be taken care of. I guess one could shield it from it, but then (at least on a small boat - meaning much smaller liferafts), it goes against the kiss-principle. Well, it does to me. You make a solution, but at the same time create a problem that you have created yet another solution to.
The thing is, I don't think those solutions are beneficial, frankly (on a small boat), but I can see why a car ferry would go for it.

This is merely my opinion, though. I am not saying that I would have the same opinion if my boat was different or bigger.

[marshmat]

A typical hydrostatic release unit, this one from http://www.landfallnav.com/hydrostatic.html
I've never heard of one being tripped by waves, although since the liferaft itself must now be mounted in a clear area of the deck, it would seem that it's more vulnerable to damage in a storm. The actual mechanism is protected from dynamic wave pressures by the case; I'm pretty sure the case has to be submerged for a period of time for the pressure inside to be high enough to trip the release.
For $50 a year (they do require 2-year replacement) it's a good bit of insurance on a commercial vessel.
On a pleasure craft, where there is probably no convenient place to mount a liferaft canister on deck in such a manner that it can't be damaged or have its mounting brackets ripped out of the deck by waves, these might not always be such a good idea. Here, the raft might be better off somewhere protected, ie. a cockpit locker, so you can be sure it's not damaged when you deploy it.
Most of what I've read on the subject seems to say there are two cases in which you use the liferaft:
(1) The boat is burning and can't be extinguished;
(2) The boat is going down and you have to step UP into the liferaft from the cockpit coamings.
It's not something you deploy just for the fun of it, except during a survival course....

[DanishBagger]

I don't think anyone here would deploy their liferaft for the fun of it.

[safewalrus]

Wow are there some tossers on here or what!

Serious head on!!

first point - your 'mother' vessel is your most effective lifeboat / lafesaving device, DO NOT LEAVE IT UNTIL YOU HAVE TO!

second point - we're all going on about liferafts ad nauseu; anybody been on one? not in the swimming baths but for real? and for a decent length of time!

I have for a week (six days actually) OK it was so called trials with a 'mothership' in range at all times, but it was in the English Channel approaches, didn't get above a force 5, but hell I've never been so sick in all my life. Yeah it was a twenty man raft with only six onboard (Royal Navy Trials)[insufficent ballast?] but miserable ain't the word for it. Far better to have a rigid lifeboat of some sort if you can, might be cramed and uncomfortable but at least you don't want to die (don't forget if you are sick you become dehydrated, very quickly, we had support who sent extra water over otherwise.........

third point - survival situations normally happen when you least expect them, so all that kit is still in the boat........miles away

fourth point - your mothership is your best lifeboat STAY ON IT AS LONG AS POSSIBLE

fifth point - see three above, get some training in from those who know, don't read the books, do the courses!

sixth point - if you are so worried about all this survival stuff and want to have a pleasant experience whilst doing it, stay the fcuk ashore and don't put REAL sailors (commercial, naval and pleasure (?)) at risk rescuing numpties, because it looks like your about to qualify!

And finally your mother ship is your best lifeboat......but I'v said that before

You may notice something running through this post that sounds familiar, pay attention to it or die - survival is NOT a game! Yes you can be prepared and have all the kit but it's about knowledge and most of all an attitude!

[marshmat]

Can't argue with that, Walrus. You've summed it up nicely.

[westlawn5554X]

I prefer the lifecraft from rig station... it is a boat with a capacity for a crew tilted at an angle and ready for launch... I see that in discover channel... they dont do it for fun but on regular basis for trainning...:)

[enjoysurvival]

Hi,

what is your comment about this?

http://www.portlandpudgy.com/index.html

[masalai]

Nice Dingy, Have you understood any of what has been written in advice above.

Summarised effectively by safewalrus?

Are you lacking in an understanding of written english? If so specify your preferred language. I am sure someone will translate for you.

[Kay9]

Thats is designed to be a dingy/liferaft/sailboat and it dosnt look to me like it would do any of them well. If you want a liferaft get a liferaft. You want a dingy get a dingy. A dingy can be a liferaft if it has to be, and I guess you could use a liferaft as a dingy but neither makes a good replacemnt for the other.

As a liferaft that looks like death-at-sea to me. My opinion.

[DanishBagger]

Spot on, Wally.

[enjoysurvival]

hi,

first point . agree ,common sense. but not too close to a damaged vessel , as everyone knows , would damage the raft.
second point. agree . Does it apply to all sea players ? Why were you so sick in these six days ? Did you and your team diagnose the reason ? and to improve the device ,design and supplies to minimise these sickness ? What are the conclusions ?
third point , agree , that's why I am requesting boat designers to design somthing to ensure ( maximise the chance ) the stuff to be stayed close to the raft.
fourth point , agree ,(repeat as 1st)
fifth point , agree , join the course is necessary , do you have any statistics how many of general sea players join such courses ?Reading is also necessary , not mutually exclusive. ( I know yours "don't read the book" means "not just reading books"....join real training...right ? )As mentioned before , I have never been into the raft.
sixth point , about worries . In my case , I take many situations into consideration.Not anxiety. I think my preparation is good with extra equipments , water and food to be saved , Don't concentrate on my mp3 and computers , concentrate to the equippments !

[Kay9]

Look. Start Here :http://www.answers.com/topic/survival-at-sea?cat=health

Then here: http://www.uscgboating.org/command/initiative.htm

Then here: http://www.fishresearch.org/Articles/2002/07/survival_requirements.asp

Now here: https://myeporia.eporia.com/resources/company_86/raft%20servicing%20flyer.pdf

Finally read this: http://www.imo.org/Conventions/contents.asp?topic_id=257&doc_id=647

Now when your done with all of that. Im more then willing to answer any questions you might have.

[marshmat]

Nice links, Kay9. No substitute for a training course but it's the essentials in a nutshell (and enough to scare one into taking survival training before heading out on the ocean).

[safewalrus]

Couple of points 'enjoyerself' Second point, yes it was analysed, in depth (no pun intended) they were part of ongoing trials into Sea Survival by the Royal Navy (you may have heard of them), several reasons really, the raft flexes with the flow of water, a twenty man raft is designed for twenty men; not less! it's primarily the ballast thing, but also of course it's the warmth thing huddle together keeps you warm (good for moral as well probably THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THE WILL TO LIVE AND GOOD MORAL without that your dead!

There were further trials carried out some years later off Iceland which are now the basics of raft survival! (well worth getting hold of those reports and reading them) And funnily enough one of the main factors is not to get into the bloody thing unless YOU HAVE TO! I cannot stress that enough!

the tropics are a different set up but much of what I said still holds!


Incidentally I realise what your after, quite a few 'weird types' indulge in it - they even make TV programs about it! Minimalistic camping and solo canoeing expeditions etc spring to mind, the sort of things that 'Special Forces' do for recreational purposes - just remember those guys go through very severe and specialist training to get to where they are! Also it is wise to remember that these sort of foolhardy activities can (and do) go wrong (I'm thinking of a certain Australian and a ray). Also remember that those activities generally have lots of backup, not to far away (some don't but that's the beauty of it) but remember thats not survival as we are talking about here! SURVIVAL is about when it's you against death, when it's all gone wrong and unless your very 'switched on' or lucky there is only one outcome! The fish don't go hungry!! From what we've seen so far unfortunately your not up to it! But there is hope your asking the questions NOW before you take the risk, just please pay attention to the answers, we're not kidding even if you are!!


And if it all goes to **** we can't come and pull you out and say I told you so...

[gww25]

Another good book to get a hold of besides the one by Sigler is the one by Dougal Robertson. I think it's called the 'Voyage of the Lucette' but anyway search for Robertson-raft etc. Much about raft survial came about as the result of their experience but like other have said the 'raft' is the absolute last ditch option if you can't stay with the boat for one reason or another.

[GTO]

The Robertson's book is "Survive the Savage Sea". It can be obtained from the publisher, Sheridan House. They started out with an old life raft they received free from another cruiser, and their dinghy. After some days the raft fell apart and they all moved into the dinghy. In many ways they were much better off.

After reading that book and two others, the Butler's "66 Days Adrift" and Callahan's "Adrift: 76 Days Lost at Sea",a dinghy seems preferable over a life raft. A manual water maker would top the list of must carry equipment too.

I'm thinking Enjoy's ideas might be getting a little bit distorted by the English translation - maybe, I hope. Reading those three stories certainly highlights just how much the proper survival gear could enhance your chance of living long enough to be rescued. At least he is trying to figure this out before he hits the water. From stories I've read, many people never give the worst case event any significant thought or planning. Maybe experience will help Enjoy "refine" his survival package.

[DanishBagger]

I don't think much is lost in translation. He has made it clear that it should be an enjoyable experiance. Yes, just an experience to tell his sons, not survival. And the way he envisions making it enjoyable is by wanting to listen to his iPod, taking pictures and write blogs (well, apparently blogs) on his brought computer. According to him, people who don't have fun while fighting to survive, are plain idiots. Because in a survival situation (still according to him), there is no need to fight for your survival as long as you are optimistic, and are enjoying yourself.

Apparently, he thinks that he just have to have a postive mindset, then it's all scout camp from there.

[Guillermo]

"The time to get into a life raft, is when your right foot is already wet, and you have to step up into the raft with your left." (Mark Fry dixit)

Some other interesting reading:
http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA337264&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf
http://www.ussailing.org/safety/ISAF/usliferaftreg.asp
http://www.johnsboatstuff.com/Articles/self.htm

SOLAS requirements state that the following equipment be aboard each raft:
1 Heaving line
1 Floating knife
1 Bailer
2 Sponges
2 Sea anchors
2 Floating paddles
1 Relief valve stopper kit
1 Label (contents)

If you're staying relatively close to shore, you will most likely need a SOLAS "B Pack" for coastal use, which mandates the addition of the following equipment:
3 Hand flares
2 Rocket signals
2 Smoke signals

If you venture offshore, you need the SOLAS "A Pack," which adds the following:
3 Can openers
1 Graduated drinking cup
1 Fishing kit
6 Hand flares
1 Food provisions for each person
4 Rocket signals
2 Smoke signals
1 Dozen 125 ml water rations per person
1 Repair kit
1 Pump
1 Repair plug set
1 Safety scissors
1 Sea-sickness bag per person
1 First-aid kit
2 Thermal protective aids
1 Whistle
1 Raft ID tube
1 Signaling mirror
1 Waterproof flashlight with spare bulb
1 Life-saving signal set


Some other useful items:
- 406 MHz EPIRB
- Handheld VHF radio
- Handheld GPS
- Strobe light
- Extra batteries
- Hand water maker
- Dye markers
- Compass
- Chemical light sticks
- Sunscreen
- Lip balm
- Life jackets (well, you're supposed to be wearing them, but just in case)
- Swiss army knife
- Extra clothing
- Duct tape
- Gloves
- Zip-lock bags

(Not mp3 here :) )

Cheers.

[westlawn5554X]

i need a girl in the list :D:D:D... would help.

[Guillermo]

What for...? ;)

[westlawn5554X]

The floating ballon in girls form... real survival kit...

1. help u float in water
2. Help u clam down nerves
3. Help u overcome inmates problem
4. Help you feel complete
5. Snoring aid kit
6. Proable pillow
7. Good for lap sleeping
8. Help you... understand right?
9. Etc... Etc...

I know walrus have suggested this item as christmas present but I am broke and they doesnt sell it in my country...:)

[DanishBagger]

The floating ballon in girls form... real survival kit...
[ … ]
I know walrus have suggested this item as christmas present but I am broke and they doesnt sell it in my country...:)

You can propably get one from ebay – only slightly used :eek: