Sailing Experience

[Fanie]

In another thread (couldn't find it) it was suggested that you get some sailing experience for your skippers license.

Do one have to sail a boat larger than 9m, or is sailing experience sailing experience ?

A friend of mine has a windrider 16, sailed some competitions etc and I cruised with him on it once. If this could add to sailing experience, I can build a small tri in the next weeks or so (already designed it in Delftship) and can sail on local waters with it. Since I probably won't ever own or sail a monohull ?? would this be ok for getting sailing experience ?

[longliner45]

I would like to see you build a small tri in the nexts few weeks or so,longliner

[masalai]

Ambitiousness can be a good thing if you have a good place to build, skilled tradesmen & all materials needed for a detailed set of plans.

It will be a good learning experience for you. Fanie, during construction we will forgive you for not making any posts - except to boat jokes.

Best wishes in a speedy recovery.

[Fanie]

This is a hull a friend and me did in a whole day. It was unpleasant since it took too long probably due to lack of preperation. I want to change the method and be better prepared, also instead of doing it in one day next time I would rather do it over 3 days since I have other work to attend to as well.

Didn't like the hull in the pic which was just an experiment, which is another reason to change it. Maybe the preperation is going to take a bit longer this time, but once the frame is done it may be somewhat quicker and if I calculated correctly a bit cheaper to drape the materials. One cannot bugger a whole day up on a single hull this size. I think you missed the part where I mentioned before that I did a couple of thing with fiberglass before... but just a few.

If only my laser cutter was finished, it would have sped some things up a bit as well. I tried to find out if the woven mat can be laser cut, but seems nobody could give me any hard and fast answers on it. Hand cutting it out like a pattern is also a pain.

Anyway, we have one big job to complete before end of Dec - maybe things will work out.

About the sailing experience - if one joins a club, are sailing hours logged or how do one make up sailing hours to count for experience ?

[masalai]

Ok you win, previous post may have been a little too tongue in cheek etc.

Go for it and good luck. Hope to see you on the water!

[Fanie]

You're going to be there too ? :D

[masalai]

That is what I am doing, look at member galleries & other posts I have made apart from "drivel" & "Jokes" threads & items.

This ancient one needs the sea to feel at home/alive

[tuks]

Hi Fanie

The idea for the qualification is that you spend years sailing with more experienced people and through doing this learn what you need to know. Every time you go sailing, you will need to keep a record of the hours and miles sailed, hours sailed at night and a few details of the passage.

When you have reached the minmum experience levels you submit you logbook to SAS and you do practical and theory exams. The skipper will grade you and give you a ticket. Sometimes if you are not ready you might only get dayskipper even if your logbook shows you have enough miles for costal skippers.

For what you want to do, it seems you will need a Costal Skippers ticket. So you will need the following experience.

15 days as skipper or watch captain
with at least 8 periods of 24hours
48 hours of night watch keeping
800 miles logged in tidal ocean waters
atleast 3 passages of 60 miles or more.
If I recall correctly a trip must be 4hrs or more and 75% of the time uner sail.

Unfortunatly your trimaran idea wont count because inland waters arent acceptable, but recording this cant hurt though. I think the 9m boat was only for the exam. Im not sure there is any restriction on the boats you sailed on for the log book. but you need overnight passages, some long passages so small boats are not suitable.

If you need the qualification in a hurry you can go through a sailing school which will teach you the theory you need in a class room and will take you on a passage, I think its Cape Town to Basaruto to get the required miles so you can write the SAS exam. The SAS examiners dont really like this they prefer to see multiple trips over a long period because you will be more experienced.

If you lived near the coast it is generally not a problem, you join the yachtclub, do open wednesday night sailing, make some friends, do some daysailing. All of the qualified vaalies that I know of have either done the ocean sailing course, or they are racers and you generally get opportunities to do some coastal races.

The best bet for you will be to make friends with somebody else with a dayskippers or costal skippers ticket. Take the boat out with them to build up your experience and then you can take the exam. Or you can keep the boat on the Vaal dam or Harties for a while and learn to sail. Here you will meet people that have experience and can take you sailing in the sea.

I have not done the qualificatiions so I cant help you out sorry.

[Fanie]

Hi Craig,

Yet again thanks for your detailed help. The one person I called in Ricards Bay who has a boat says he's too old for it and may sell in the near future. Also didn't seem too eager to take someone else out for the experience. I'm sure there must be people looking for a crew from time to time although I suspect they want experienced guys and someone not living 600km from the coast eh ! I think the biggest problem with these sailing guys are that they do not fish ! so the real motivation lacks ;)

[tuks]

There are a bunch of guys that run cruises on the Vaal dam. I would suggest once your boat is built, hook with these guys they are very friendly. You will learn how to handle your boat under fairly safe conditions and you will probably meet people you can sail with.

http://www.inlandsailing.co.za

[safewalrus]

Fanie

In the first instance get a small boat (dinghy) with a mast and a sail. Find some water that the boat will fit in and move about in! Read a few books (or get help) learn the basics and GET IN THE BOAT AND SAIL! When your ready move on from there, only YOU will know when and where!

Ok so you'll turn over, fall in, make a prat of yourself more than once but if you stick with it you will move on, when your ready! Then and only then go for the pretty ticket. But first you got to play! (learn to swim or buy a life jacket or make sure your first bit of water ain't to deep - you can stand up in it with your head above water)! Don't kill yourself that ruins the whole effect!!

[Fanie]

Thanks Tuks and Safewalrus,

I have now watched just about all the sailing video's on youtube as well as some off a couple of other sites. 'How to sail - free online lessons...' you take this thing then pull it around that round thing and pull here then that thing there will do something. If it is not working out then you pull the other way. If it still does not work you phone a friend.

My main concern is to determine the bad weather issues as this is where most problems would be... I'm sea sick already ;).

Calm water I suspect anyone can sail in especially if it's wind still. You really think I should take swimming lessons first ? I thought the idea is that the boat keeps one out of the water... otherwise what's it there for ?

Can't kill myself yet, not enough fish cought, not enough jokes read, boxy fisher's not completed yet and then... ok we'll discuss women another time.

[charmc]

My main concern is to determine the bad weather issues as this is where most problems would be... I'm sea sick already ;).

Calm water I suspect anyone can sail in especially if it's wind still. You really think I should take swimming lessons first ? I thought the idea is that the boat keeps one out of the water... otherwise what's it there for ?

Can't kill myself yet, not enough fish cought, not enough jokes read, boxy fisher's not completed yet and then... ok we'll discuss women another time.

Fanie,

Good advice from masali, tuks, and Walrus. Your point about never sailing a monohull so no need to practice on one is a good one ... if you are certain you have absolute and total control over every aspect of the future. :D

The learning curve is pretty steep on small boats, as everything moves pretty quickly. I'd follow Walrus' advice and learn the basics in a small dinghy. In light airs you can read and then practice by yourself, although a bit of instruction helps at the beginning. Once you know the basics, asking to crew with someone in a larger boat will yield some good experience. There are many levels of conditions between light airs in protected waters and rough seas offshore, so lots of experience needed. That sailing group by Vaal dam sounds pretty good.

One more thing: what I said about things happening fast in small boats; they happen even faster in multi-hulls. Might be a good idea to become good at sailing before switching to tris. Just a thought.

Learning new skills, always a way to stay young! :)

[Fanie]

Hi Charlie

I have access to a tri - but would like to get my own for 'praticing' purposes.
The little tri I was on was really easy to sail.

I assume by things happening fast in a small boat I assume you mean they tip over quicker ;) or do they sink faster :eek:

Been on the Vaal dam as well as Bloemhof in baddish weather but on my power boat mind you, I'd rate Bloemhof as the one with the badder temper. Seen plenty of boats including ski boats tipping and sinking there. So far I survived and hope to keep building on the reputation. Had a couple of close ones there... you slip once you're done for. There's one area that makes knobs not waves that pop up all over. Scary to see, worse if you're in it, funny if you watch the other's faces :rolleyes:

Learning new skills, always a way to stay young!
Are we talking about the women now ?

[charmc]

I assume by things happening fast in a small boat I assume you mean they tip over quicker ;) or do they sink faster :eek:

Hey, Fanie,

I found that, learning to sail in a dinghy, everything happened quickly; tacking gybing, acceleration, response to helm, etc. (Maybe it just seems to all happen fast when you are a rank newbie?) And yup, when I screwed up badly enough, it tipped over pretty quickly (though not as fast as when I tried windsurfing :D ).

Are we talking about the women now ?

Well, it applies to other stuff, too, but of course women!!:D

[safewalrus]

Fanie - the thing with dinghy sailing is as Charlie said, things happen quickly, you can do a lot in minature, like in a small pond! On the BIG boat it takes time for your actions to unfold, and of course the results are more comprehensive and hard to undo.

In a dinghy sailing into the wind push the tiller up everything stops all flapping, push it back down the boat starts off again almost immediately! Do that on a large ketch, it takes some time before anything actually happens, then when it does the boom goes all over the place, people get hurt, panic sets in and when you try to get out of it nothing happens because by now it's all gone completly wrong! See what I mean? (Ok maybe I exaggerated a little for effect but the main truth in is there!)

Go learn in dinghys, move up to hobie cats for your cat training (they go like **** of the proverbial shovel by the way! and they teach you PDQ - pretty damn quick!)

[Fanie]

I think I know why things take longer to happen on a big boat. IT TAKES SO BLOODY MUCH LONGER TO GET THERE !

I saw this youtube video of this massive tanker. Now to think the anchor on this thing gets stuck, I can imagine it's going to take the skipper quite a while to get there even if he runs for it, then wiggle it loose, throws it out, and runs back. His coffee is going to be ice cold by then.

I'm not such a good runner any more which is why I've limited myself to the boxy, ten paces (meter) can't take you longer than a few seconds to get there.

Then, one day when I'm as old as some of you guys I'll get a dinghy so you won't have to walk anywhere to do anything ;) Get things done quicker.

[safewalrus]

Sounds good to me son!

some of the tankers I used to run around your part of the world in were that kind of size (used a bike to get to the front end from the back). Several days using big paint rollers and ten men to paint the main deck that sort of stuff!

[Fanie]

I noticed. They even do their layups in huge sheets of steel. You saw the youtube video of the anchor dropping on this tug boat... 4 5 c imagine the tug boat guy couldn't swim :D

Maybe they could give the ten guys bikes, should get the field painted somewhat quicker. Does painting a ship while under way counts for sailing experience ? or just painting experience ? When someone without arms has a gun, is he still armed ?

Now if it takes someone to finish his cat over like 6 or so years then surely a tanker that size must all be inherrited from generation to generation for completion. Grampa started our boat, but I won't be sailing or completing it, my grandson is going to finish er.

[safewalrus]

Maybe they could give the ten guys bikes, should get the field painted somewhat quicker. Does painting a ship while under way counts for sailing experience ? or just painting experience ? When someone without arms has a gun, is he still armed ?



It's painting not deck hockey! Who's sailing? sailing means using lots of canvas? so if your painting a canvas deck underway I guess you could be getting sailing experience, unless it splits then jou just get painted!

Either way I guess 'ees '(h)armless'

[Fanie]

When one overnights on the sea on a yacht, does someone always stay awake to keep watch ?

[artemis]

When one overnights on the sea on a yacht, does someone always stay awake to keep watch ?
Depends on whether she's at anchor. :D

[Fanie]

You mean it depends if SHE's awake or not ;)

Even if anchored, are there other boats sailing or is it their problem watching out for other boat's lights ?

[artemis]

You mean it depends if SHE's awake or not ;)

Even if anchored, are there other boats sailing or is it their problem watching out for other boat's lights ?

"she" in my comment referred to the vessel - unless you're going to adopt the "it" generic term supposedly in use today when talking about a vessel.

I assumed that she was on the open water and, if shorthanded, would be sure to be outside normal traffic lanes at night, throw out a sea anchor, and have proper lights out.

[masalai]

I have tried it in the trampoline of a "beach cat", better than on a water-bed, you don't get wet whilst doing it, unless a gust of wind bursts on the scene at the critical moment. then everything moves (not just the earth).

[masalai]

Gee Artie,
Think of what you wrote in the human form and is very relevant there too!

Oops wrong thread. Getting excited and carried away again!?

[charmc]

When one overnights on the sea on a yacht, does someone always stay awake to keep watch ?

Depends on your preference. If you're underway, the knowledge (quite a lot of documentation of this) that there are large ships moving about with no one awake on the bridge might influence your decision on watchkeeping. :D :D

[safewalrus]

When one overnights on the sea on a yacht, does someone always stay awake to keep watch ?


Legally yes, but as in all things it depends where you are and what your doing! But if in the wrong place at the wrong time and a bloody big ship hits you at speed it don't really matter does it? Your dead! (does that tell you anything?)

[masalai]

I have found a couple of solo cruisers who occasoinally snooze whilst holding the tiller, one story inside Shark Bay (Western Australia) ran aground at the opposite end of the bay - travelling south from Carnarvon. The other guy had radar fitted which could be programmed to "anchor watch" every 15 minutes & sound alarm if an echo was found.

[charmc]

There are those stories of port authorities questioning the bright colored paint splotches and scrape marks on the bow of a large bulker, tanker, or container ship.

[masalai]

I felt mine was also a cautionary tale, following up on previous posts. Then again re-iteration is appropriate.

Charmc, do you mean literally that "...there are large ships moving about with no one awake on the bridge...." occurs? I am shocked. tut, tut, tut. - - - heh heh heh

Has anyone tales of close encounters with containers or other flotsam?

[Fanie]

So if as artemis say there are water trafic lanes that is the answer then. If you anchor ie off shore where other boats are unlikely to travel at night it would add to the safety risk.

If you have a gps that could warn when your position changes could be another factor - in SA they'd steal your anchor right off the end of your rope to sell for scrap metal.

A wind speed monitor could also indicate changing conditions, although I've been on water where the wind was attacking from still to furious in less than a second - the storm approaching like a big blanket.

The other would be to have weather updates. I was wondering if there are storm broadcasts for seas, I saw a marine radio with such an alarm feature on it. If you rely on the .za news cast it depends what the guy in the radio and Tv transmission centre building in Jo'burg can see out his window.

[DanishBagger]

in SA they'd steal your anchor right off the end of your rope to sell for scrap metal.

LOL, that's not very nice of them!

I guess one could install american barbed wire (essentially razor blades) on the last couple of metres. Then when they feel their way down it, they will get severely cut.

You could install it with snap-schackles, so it'd be easy to remove without cutting yourself.

Nah, I'm not serious, but it's still less extreme than the anti-carjack installations I've heard of from down there (flames shooting out from under the car, 50.000 volts in the door handles and so forth).

[Fanie]

What do you mean not nice of them !! We have areas where there are no street names beacause they steal that too. They even steal the pot hole covers in the streets. If you leave your car somewhere they will break the window to take the small change if they can see it. The only thing they don't steal enough are the bloody speed camera's that sits everywhere.

All those anti hijack goody goody's and mac gafters the guys build are desperate measures since our police are uncapable of taking up unimportant and minor things like car jacks, house breaks and so on. However if you defend yourself against a so called burglar and he happens to be the right color half the police force arives in less than three minutes in defence of the poor burglar that gets harassed by the radical white racist. You guys have no idea. Man, even the white police guy attempting to arrest someone, who dares to defend himself gets throwed in jail. Don't believe me ? Visit SA !!

The difference between a tourist and a racist here is about 3 days to a week ;)

[safewalrus]

I believe you Fanie - there again we got heaps of young white South Africans in London just looking for a crust (anything is better than back home - even our shitty weather!)

When I first visited South Africa back in the 60's it was a beautiful country! Last time I was there on the late 80's it had really gone down the pan! You'd stopped 'seperate developement' and the monkees thought they were human! Sad, like this country your not allowed to call a spade a spade anymore! ain't as bad as Rhodesian yet tho! Sorry zimbabawewe!

they go on about the missing link between human and ape - God knows why we see 'em every day!!

[No I ain't racist, I'll punch anybody who deserves it!]

[Fanie]

I'm not a racist either, I like white people :D

Did you hear there was a bank robbery in Zim.. they made off with a million zim $. Police are still trying to find a motive for the robbery... :rolleyes:

Anyway, there's a slim chance I may be working on the small tri this weekend. Typical, almost Christmas, and everybody wants everything like in yesterday, while at the same time suppliers call off any new orders :o

I need a holiday. At this rate there's not even light at the far end of the tunnel :mad:

[Fanie]

I'm trying to find someone with a cat that would take me sailing, right, since I've never been on one of them, have no idea what they feel like on the water. So as per previous suggestion I started looking up the clubs...

On the Hartebeespoort dam there are 3 sailing cats. I tried to find who they belongs to by phoning the Transvaal yacht club. Everything went well untill I finally got to the owners. One owner is gone, probably lives elsewhere, the one I spoke to doesn't 'take people out on pleasure drives' and the third guy turns out you have to get 6 guys min together and pay like R 250 each for a 3 hour 'pleasure' trip.

Now I begin to understand why so few people are interested in SAILING ! Seems these guys who think they have something are just running around thinking they can screw everybody else over. One thing's for sure, if the Hartebeespoort dam is the only puddle of water left on earth I'll be the last to join their club !

I'm going to contact the Vall dam crowd as well, see if they have the same shitty attitude.

[safewalrus]

Probably Fanie, probably! I got me a boat and your not having a go is a fairly well know phenomina - normally means I got this expensive boat but I haven't got a clue how to use it so the best way not to make a prat of myself is to make sure that nobody else gets a go, or make them pay a lot of money and then they won't admit they are as stupid as I am!

The answer of course is to sneak away somewhere learn how to use one and come back with your own which is of course bigger, better and faster and run rings round the bastards - the good thing is of course that as tehy don't know what they are doing in the first place it's not to hard to do!

[Fanie]

Just to let you know I'm going about a different approach wrt building the little tri. If it works out and after the jig's been done it may be possible to produce the three hulls in a day, and another to assemble, probable another day to finish er off a bit.. If it works out and if you're interested I could show you what I did. The little tri is going to be 5m500 long. Still some small issues I have to work out but it'll come to me. May have to do an experiment or two still.

Safewalrus, it is exactly what I'm going to do... I'll learn myself the ropes. I've e-mailed 5 people that says they give sailing lessons, none responded.

[tuks]

Im interested to hear more about the tri. Will you be testing some of the concepts you will use on boxy fisher? Why not build something similar, a kind of scale model.

Will your boat be built quick and cheap or will you try and recover your money and sell it?

You might try and track down another beach cat so that you can reuse the mast and sails, rudders, daggerboards, will save lots of time and money. Some heavy tornadoes were built by collins fiberglass that would probably work. I recall a guy a few years ago that bought one on a trailer for 5 grand. I was really jealous.

[safewalrus]

Go for it Fanie! Take yer time mate and don't do anything rash and you'll be OK! It's easier than you think! (some idjit will have a go about that but think about it guys, as long as your careful and take your time........

[Fanie]

Hi Tuks, the tri is for ME so I can get some sailing experience and get my hours up. I'm not going to make this one very fancy, but the next ones will be much better when my laser cutter is up and running (month or so I hope). I have a couple of experiments to play on it as well.

I haven't started anything on the boxy yet - there's a LOT of things I have to figure out still and a LOT of drawings and calculations etc etc... Collecting things for it in the mean time...

Don't worry Safewalrus, this sailing thing is going to be a wee-wee ;)

I'm now trying to figure out a way to make a telescopic mast... one of my friends friends have put an 8m mast and sail on this windrider (so he can beat us). I was thinking the telescopic if short would give the competition a lot of confidence... one he's somewhere else you pull the rope and flush him out :D

My friend and this guy sailed the Vaal dam... my friend took his GPS so he could monitor for max speed but the friend sailed 'blind' so my friend won by half an hour or something... guy was really PO hence the new 8m sail :)

[tuks]

Sounds like fun. Post some pics when you do it.

[Fanie]

The materials arive tomorrow... :eek:

[masalai]

Good on you Fanie, Your limited presence on this forum will be understood and accepted so long as Tuks and us all gets to see progress pics?

Have fun.

[Fanie]

The polyester and hardner arived today, the flat bar arived yesterday and I've started to bend the profiles. First few was easy, but it becomes more difficult when your hands get tired.

I could post some pics of the resin although I doubt that was what you had in mind ;) The foam and glass mat will arive tomorrow, the mast will be here on Thursday if all goes well.

I have to get the sail made up still, just want to make double sure the dimensions are sound.

I have designed a small furling roller for the sail, the SS laser cut parts will hopefully also arive this week, will just weld them together then.

Masalai, any absence here won't be due to the tri. Everybody (clients) wants stuff before next week Friday so I'm plowing through a heap of work. I would rather spend the time on the tri though :o

[Fanie]

The glass and foam arrived today. All the centre hull section steel was cut this afternoon but has to be bent still, I may begin to make the jig tomorrow if work doesn't interfere again...

Still waiting for the laser cutters to finish cutting parts for the furling roller... the piece clipping to the mast top is complete except for a laser cut part that is absent. The long part awaits two discs which is where the rope winds up into before I can weld it together.

Everything runs on bearings... I wonder if it will work too smooth and quiet... :rolleyes: The youtube movies I saw these things were quite noisy and a constant clanking of cables and pipes :o

[Fanie]

Mast sections arrived... Blimey ! all the stuff is here (except the laser cut items) so I guess I'll have to do something...

[tuks]

I am interested in your sailplan. What dimensions are the mast? Will it be stayed? What shape is the section? How much does it weigh?

[Fanie]

All the sections were bent a-hand welded tonight.

Still no laser-cut items... In SA these metal workers cutters moldmakers (anything to do with metal works) are by far the worst I have had to do with. It's a week already and the 5th bunch I'm trying to get to cut a few SS pieces. Really pathetically pathetic.


Hi Tuks... Ask easy questions please. The sail plan is not what you would expect. At this stage it is an experiment, the mast is at the rear, 6m tall and will work like an oversized jib. If I have it correctly sail centre force will be just foreward of the centre hull centre.

I ordered some extrusions from Solo Wings (aeroplane stuff) solowings.co.za, and has a bottom piece one meter long, inside it another 5.2m long and inside that another piece 6m long. You could say I have a laminated mast. The inside extrusion dia is 42mm.

The sail area is 8.9m2, but it may change... I'm going to have a sail made by Robbert from Hyde Sails unless you refer me to someone else for some reason. The sail will have the furling roller cable included. I chose this sail plan / setup for various reasons, one it's very easy and fast to get rid of the sail. Unless I'm mistaken it should sail very much alike the std bermuda setup. Yes it has a forestay, the sail section is triangular :D

The setup I guess should be a bit lighter than another sailboats 5m mast I felt the wight of a while back. Don't know in kg's... a few :rolleyes: but not heavy.

I won't race with this rig... for that I'll go to an 8m mast with a couple of tricks I was thinking up recently and slimmer hulls, but I'm not interested in racing, so this will be like an explorer sail... remember sailing experience...

[tuks]

Rob devlieg is an awesome sailor, I have bought a few sails from him and every one has been top quality, I wouldn't recomend anyone else.

The mast aft rig does sound a little odd and I have no idea how it will work. Testing the idea before boxy fisher is a good idea. Sleeving the mast with different tubes is not uncommon at all, although your sleeves do sound longer than most. If my mental picture of your rig is correct, I would not have tapered the tube. What wall thicknesses and alloys are we talking about here?

Your rig sounds fairly concervative, and for learning to sail it sounds good. Think very carefully about putting a bigger mast on it. I dont have much experience on cats but I have seem many people struggle to right them after they capsize. They have high stability which makes them difficult to capsize, but the same also applies when righting them. If your tri is wide the problem will be worse

[Fanie]

The cat is about 4m wide and 5m500 long. The windrider I was on before was about the same relation to sail size... and I never got the impression it would capsize. Maybe I'm too fat or something :rolleyes:

This setup allows one to trim the sail to any size, so if the wind picks up to uncomfortable you can sail with a smaller sail.

I may go and see Rob... didn't know he fly also :D maybe he could add to the little I know about sails.

[tuks]

At 4m beam I suspect you will have so much righting moment you will break the rig before it will capsize, and you should not be out in that much wind. If you do capsize good luck. Im not sure on how much buoyancy the amas have though.

[Fanie]

Plenty (I think). They will be 300mm wide by 4m long and 400mm high ( sorry the shipping terms) taking into consideration the shape...

[Fanie]

I ordered the sail today and got a couple of cleats and a few other goodies as well as some rope. The stainless steel stuff is very expensive eh !

I draped the foam over the sections to get an idea of what it's going to look like and BLOODY HELL !! the tri is going to come out somewhat larger than what I expected. Dismantled again and measured the foam out , cut the edges closer to shape. The center hull form foam should be able to float more than 200kg,

[Fanie]

The centre hull's foam weight alone is about 10kg's and includes a few cross sections for extra stiffening.

Very nice... it rained all day Saturday and didn't do much with the tri.

The centre hull's foam is draped over the sections and fastened. Had to do two cutouts on both sides to prevent the foam from bulging too much due to the hull's bottom shape not being streight.

I still have to do a bit of trimming of the foam on the front, when done I can begin to cut the glass and do the hull's layups. Looking foreward to floating it in the pool :D

[tuks]

What layup will you use?

I am beginning to suspect foul play, some photographic evidence might convince me otherwise :D

[Fanie]

Hi Tuks... really not much to see yet

Tri1 - Delftship :D
Tri2 - Centre hull foam

Polyester resin... 450g woven mat

[masalai]

Very sexy lad, looks like it is coming along splendidly.

[Fanie]

I hope you're satisfied... seems pretty pointless to post pictures of the resin tins and the roll of glass...

I may put a page up on my web site with pics from the start, the work is pretty boring though. Just a matter of doing it and keep on untill it's done. Fortunately, tomorrow, today's tiredness will be forgotten... but with something to show ;)

The measuring and marking of everything took the most time. This hull is made off the frame you see in the first pic. Once pic2 is glassed (and became a hull) can I make a jig from it's inside. From there on it will be easy to reproduce - drape the foam, tie down and glass.

Don't get too excited yet - I still have two amas to go... hopefully they will be quicker to make since they're smaller :rolleyes:

[masalai]

I'm not complaining, I just got "beeped" on your post so had a look. I am happy to wait for your "in due course".

[tuks]

Thats pretty big, I hope you have a big pool. Looks good Fanie.

[Fanie]

Sorry Masalai... it's Tuks who wanted some visible evidence :D

Tuks, if it doesn't fit in the pool I'll first float the front and then the rear :D but it will be to determine the draft so I'm sure the amas sits at the correct hight.

It actually looks bigger than what it was originally drawed to be. I made it deeper to trim the edges shallower, but I like the outcome of it and may leave it like it is. This way you can load more fishing gear ;) The idea is it should be comfy for two persons to fish from.

I also think that a little 2hp outboard (with a max of 140hp of course ;)) could add a nice touch in case there's no wind.

[masalai]

You could almost fit a record breaking marlin in there !!???

Is oright, I am a benevolent bastard (sometimes)

[Fanie]

Wouldn't mind try fitting the marlin of course... someone told me the Zambezi sharks have a Yamaha built into it's butt (it's that strong a swimmer) so that one and the Hammerhead is on my to-do list amongst about 472 885 269 and-a-halve other fishes. ;) I may have to apply for a special fishing licence :D

Wow... wait a minute. If I put them all back, it would be like stocking the coastline with fish ! I should get paid for that, no ?

[masalai]

Fanie, you were asking about camcleats and sheet control somewhere, look at the picture on post #9 and he still has a hand free for the smoke or fishing line!?

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16200

[masalai]

I'd post you brownie points but havn't fugured out how yet (or are they bad points for swearing etc?) I got 71 somehow? & it doesn't count separate posts to the same site - see above??? still holding 526????

[safewalrus]

Mr Lee, that took me sometime as well! See the top right hand corner of the post above the info (in the border) there's a number (number of post in that chain) yhen the words "post Feedback" and a funny little button! left click that bit and do as it sez! Easy........................ when you know how!

[masalai]

Thanks to wally the walrus, saves the day again (posthumously to an end of world adventurer) for a slip of the tongue tween brain & teeth he he.

[masalai]

So you mean, I can sing and heap praises on myself??? Oooh that is soooo self gratifying. Now with a blow up doll like westie has, Oh and to pinch his other (full) bottle of Whiskey, I will almost be set for a solo-round-the-world-cruise?

[Fanie]

Hi guys. So Masalai, you want me to start smoking now ? The wooden shiny boat on your link is not me. Would make a nice braai (barbeque) instead.

I get bored pretty quickly if I just sit and do nothing, so I hope one can do other things other than just sitting and smoking under way. That's probably why all these mega yachts have the nice bikini girls on them... it's to show you won't get bored when you go somewhere.

We don't fish like how you think we do. Most of the time we throw and retreive lures so you want both hands free.

Since the two of you seems really bored, won't you old clever and salted sea hands make a nice picture of a boat with ALL the different parts names on it so I (and the new guys) can print it out and use the correct terminology and so learn by it... Be forever gratefull to you ;)

The Little Tri got it's four layers on the centre hull. It's still green but it already makes a nice klonking sound if you knock on it. Since the fiberglass bonds permanent to the foam, once an inside layer or two is in (sand witching) :rolleyes:, the hull would be very stiff

Tuks, the pool is 6m long so the centre hull could float on it. I wonder if this would count for experience... The two amas would have to take turns though. I need another fat guy like me so I can determine the waterline for the amas position. Any vo lun teers ?

[masalai]

Hay were are the tickets? Wots rong with philamon? as ballast to test your waterline I mean, not to bathe in the pool, but then you could practice for that big marlin?

There is a canoeist who regularly catches big fish and gets his pic in the "where the fish are biting" segment after the local weather forcast. He trawls a lure whilst paddling at about 4knots (an exercise freak?)

[Fanie]

Don't worry... I'll get the neighbour. I'll use bricks, pieces of iron and building rubble before I get philamon... be less damaging to the hull.

Te-he... the neighbour behind us peeped over the wall when we were testing some lures in the pool a while back. Thought he was very clever... asked with a snug grin if we cought anything. I told him he was the first :D Doesn't ask any more, just says hello, maybe he hasn't figured it out yet :rolleyes:

We have those nutty guys here too... at the coast it's the canoe guys... inland the bicycle guys.

[masalai]

Fishing from a bicycle? Amazing, catching philamon?

[Fanie]

No man, car fenders. Out on the water it may be you give way to the sailing vessel, on the road however the biggest heaviest vehicle rules.

[tuks]

Sounds like you are making good progress.

I remember as a kid practicing casting in the garden. The neighbor was not impressed when he saw me casting platic worms at his cat. Those things dont only work on fish!!!(Before the SPCA arrives to take me away, there were no hooks involved).

[Fanie]

Actually it's frustratingly slow :o

Got very little done today. Laser cut pieces (touch wood ) arives tomorrow.

I have decided to make two one piece beams, 500mm wide (fore and aft) that goes to the the amas instead of using the pipe method, so you can walk to any of the side hulls or even fish from them. Seems I'm always taking the long way to do things.

[Fanie]

The laser cut pieces arived. I can finish the furling roller tonight. Already welded an experimental anchor, will have to find a sand patch to test it in.

Floated the hull in the pool today, I'm impressed, it sits right on top of the water. One thing I noted was the slightest of breezes moves the hull. Without anything to support it floats on it's side without taking on any water.

The beams foam cut, will glue and start glassing them tomorrow. After that the amas... for some reason really not looking foreward to making their jig...

[Fanie]

The beams are glassed but green. Have to finish the ends off still. It keeps on threatening to rain and the wind blew my work area full of leaves. Last night it was flying ants... Beginning to feel like the seven plagues ;)

Wife helped with the 2nd beam... much easier if you have more hands.

The glassing the beams was more work than I thought they would be.
I ordered some white 2k paint that was delivered this afternoon... typical SA without the hardner.

I ordered two extra extrusions, both larger than what I had to make the mast stiffer. Should arrive tomorrow.

The sail should also be done by tomorrow, so things are slowly comming together.

When I've done the amas I can make the mountings for the beams measure the sail out etc.

Small draw-back, the furling roller first attempt is a nice bugger up. Welding the disks buckled them badly, too much heat required to weld them. I may have to make some 'ventilation holes' around the welding area to restrain the heat. Will figure it out...

[Fanie]

Furling roller done ! (tick) The holes drilled around the welding did the trick. If I redo them I'll just change the laser cutting.

[Fanie]

Got the sail earlier today... I feel like a sailor already ! ;) The furling roller fits nicely to the sail cable.

Also received another piece of mast extrusion to stiffen the mast some more.

The beams are four meters long and since yesterday went from a green to a more ripe :rolleyes: stage. I can support the two ends and it carries my fat weight in the centre... bends just slightly.

The amas jig steel sections cut... bending then welding them together.

[tuks]

Sounds good, you are progressing well. When do you plan to be finished by?

[Fanie]

The amas jig is finally done. I've made some changes from faults picked up on the centre hull's jig. The foam, although half the thickness of the main hulls's foam, drapes much smoother. Depending on a lot of thing I could get one hull, maybe both done tomorrow.

Tuks, I suspect a couple of days yet. I have to determine the mast's position. The beams have to get a slot in the centre hull where I can bolt them down and the same for the amas. The centre hull needs a keel or fin on it's belly and I still have to make a rudder as well. Some kind of seating would probably be more comfy than to live in an empty shell. To answer your question, Monday ! Just not sure which one :D

I would really like to take it out really soon, just to play with and get a feel for it. This time the pool will be too small.

[masalai]

Fanie, I find trampolines to be very comfortable and a couple of years age "ferari cloth" seemed the favourite for durability. Make sure it can be stretched (by the weight of bums and time) by re-straining the tiebacks?

[Fanie]

Thanks Masalai, I have sailed with a friend on his windrider, I got the trampoline position. It wasn't bad, but it was a bit on the short side for me and not very comfy to relax on witout having some part :rolleyes: dragging in the water. For now I just want to get the basics done and take er out for a spin.

[masalai]

You people with big overhangs (dicks) are a problem. Make sure it is at least enough for a couple to go to sleep on. drop the sails and do some lovemaking. beats waterbeds outa sight.

[Fanie]

Does that count for sailing experience as well... I can get that at home then :D

[masalai]

What, the big dick or belly? with or without sex as a pommie may ask whilst pouring the tea.

Laterally if you are becalmed (sailing wise) and out in open waters surely. Remember, though I think someone explained there is a minimum time at sea per voyage to count. Some require the captain to verify your log book entry. When you are a captain - or maybe lower - depends on local country laws I think you are trusted to make your own verification. Is this drivel? Oops off topic again. If your home is a boat. Jackpot!

[tuks]

I cant believe how quickly you are building this boat, but I will be blown away if you can make foils, sort out rigging, bolt down fittings, and all the other stuff by Monday. Im just hoping to see some pics before I go on holiday;).

Search google for "new generation yachting", I spoke to Joe. He makes alot of beachcat trampolines, so he can probably help you out. He was pretty cheap too.

I have been thinking about this aft mast rig a little and I have two concerns.

1. Controlling Forestay Tension.
The depth of the sail in a jib is controlled by the amount of forestay sag. To depower the sail you pull on more rig tension which makes the forestay straigher and flattens the sail. A freestanding mast will not work because the mast will flex and you will not be able to achieve sufficient forestay tension. The stays will need to be fixed to the boat behind the mast. The smaller that offset, the larger the tension required in the rigging and the larger the compression in the mast. This means that the mast will need to be a significant distance from the transom which means lost sail area. I think you are going to find controlling the sail shape difficult and the loads on the boat are going to be pretty big. Have you calculated this yet?

2. Balancing the sailplan as you reef.
I have no hard data here, but I think as you furl the sail, when overpowered, your COE will move forward quickly and may result in lee helm. My hunch is that when reefing a mainsail, the COE moves forward at a much slower rate. You may have issues with keeping the boat balanced.

I have not read up about this rig much so maybe these are not such big issues. I found this pic, just for inspiration

http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/cb64/aftmast.jpg

[Fanie]

Tuks, the tri is 4 meters wide, I doubt if it will need to be kept balanced.

There are a lot of things I have to figure out yet, since not many so called boat building experts seem to be active on the forum you can ask.

One side hull glassed... one to go. If I have enough energy left I may do the other later today or tonight. The rate the sun cures the glass is unbelievable.


WRT the sail, an extension to the front may add a lot of space. A flexing mast is a concern, but I'll figure it out as I go. There may be space for support.

[longliner45]

has it been a few weeks yet?

[safewalrus]

Seems like it! But it looks as though it is going well?!

[Fanie]

I started on the 7th, today is the 16th (I think) so it's over a week already :o

What took so long was the jigs. The glassing also takes longer than what I suspected, but if you have the correct width glass and you could wet it continuous (see quick building strategy thread) it should be much quicker to do.

The second small hull is also glassed. Will trim tomorrow if the wife doesn't shoot me.

Next step... fit the beams.

[masalai]

Fanie, in one word "farkinngroovinisgood" something similar to one seen on the back of a vwcombie used by some German backpackers. Still appropriate. Looks good!

[tuks]

Nice Fanie, looks good. When those babies are faired up an painted they will look like a million bucks. What colour are they gonna be?

[masalai]

Everyone knows red cars are fastest, but what colour boats - white seems the go?

[DanishBagger]

Nope, black boats are by far the fastest!

[Fanie]

Hi Tuks,

Sorry to disappoint you, but I have no real intentions to make them look good. They are really made very cheap (but strong) and simple for the single purpose of getting sailing experience and to experiment with some things. Chances are good I'll cut and paste various mods into it still... When I'm done with it, I'll probably give it away to someone else who wants to learn to sail.

The color will be white.

I must say the sailing community in SA sucks. Was fishing on the Bronkhorstbaai a while back, was in the water (not even on their property) and the **** head from the yacht club told me to bugger of. I told him where he can put his head and if he harrasses me some more I'll do it for him. He disappeared. But really, seems all the yachting communities here have this sick attitude and I'm not the stand in the row and be content type.

Btw, I have tested the launch of the Boxy Fisher's hulls from a trailer for assembly - it is going to work very well.

[Fanie]

Danish, the black look has nothing to do with the new SA btw, it's because the closed cell foam I used is black. I like the color black too, but it's a bit much on a boat... morbid, won't you say, and hot as hell in the SA sun. Some places claimed 37 deg C (not F)... the black would go far beyond that.

Statistics (cars) showed that red car drivers are more agressive than other color car drivers... and green car drivers are more likely to make accidents.

Mmmm... since most of the boats I saw capsized were white maybe I must make the tri a different color :rolleyes:

[DanishBagger]

Well, yes, I know that about red-car drivers.

I was just playing at for instance carbon being black and black looks very stealthy.

[tuks]

Hi Tuks,

I must say the sailing community in SA sucks. Was fishing on the Bronkhorstbaai a while back, was in the water (not even on their property) and the **** head from the yacht club told me to bugger of. I told him where he can put his head and if he harrasses me some more I'll do it for him. He disappeared. But really, seems all the yachting communities here have this sick attitude and I'm not the stand in the row and be content type.



Fanie. I am extremely offended by your coments. You insult the entire South African sailing community based on one experience, and I do not think that that is acceptable. I have had serious problems with anglers, but I do not slander them on open forums. At my sailing club, we used to turn a blind eye on fishing on the fringes of the property but after we found evidence of fires and broken bottles and had many other problems, we have decided that we would no longer allow them access to the property. On numerous occasions, I have personally found sinkers and hooks wrapped around my rigging on my moored boat and have found gelcoat damage from sinkers. I have even heard anglers boasting on how they cast their sinker straight through a hobie sail on bronkhorspruid dam. I have had to climb into the water in the middle of winter to cut fishing line from my rudder. Even after all these experiences I do not generalise and openly insult the entire South African angling community, because some people like to get drunk on the beach and cause problems, but there are also considerate anglers who are a pleasure to share the water with.

The situation with the club manager may not have been handled very well, but you will find that sailing boats onto and off the beach in some conditions is not a trivial matter and having fishermen in the shallows does not make this any easier. I also know that there are instances where sailors sail unnecessarily close to the beach and drag anglers lines, in many cases this could easily be avoided. Our waters are becoming more congested and we need to compromise.

Also the issue of "not on their property" may or may not be as clear cut as you think. I do know know what the situation on Bronkhorspruit dam is but the local waters around our sailing club are owned by Rand Water. I am not sure of the details, but I know that there is some agreement or legislation which gives the yacht club control over some aspects of the saftey issues in our local waters. It allows us to put no wake zones around the moorings and slipway, but it also makes us liable for certain saftey issues in the local waters even for non-members. Im not sure on the details but there was unhappyness from some commitee members a while back because they were liable for the actions of drunken boaters that they were not empowered to controll.

From this and previous posts it seems that this is not a one off incident, you appear to be frustrated because you have not been welcomed by the sailing community. This may be because your approach at getting involved in sailing is very unorthodox. I do not have a problem with it, but there are no programs or infrastructure set up to accomodate your approach. If you followed the more traditional entry into the sport, you might find the sailing community more welcoming.

Keep in mind that the organised part of the sport is mainly geared towards racing. The cruising sailors and social sailors tend to do their thing with little organisation and are therefore difficult to contact and get involved with. I apologise for the generalisation, but the freedom is part of the appeal of cruising. Also there are few cruisers because we are so far from the ocean. When you contact yacht clubs and ask them about a motor sailer so that you can go fishing they are probably not interested. Its much like someone contacting the bass angling association and asking for someone to teach them about flyfishing. Many bass fisherman are competent flyfishermen, but artlure angling is the norm.

Your plans of designing, building and then teaching your self to sail a motor sailer so that you can go fishing is pretty far removed from the interests of most of the inland sailing comunity. So please dont get frustrated and slander us.

I would like to apologise to the Boat Design Forum Members for this rant, It is way off topic but I felt the need to respond.

[Fanie]

No, Tuks, don't apologise for the rant. Maybe we could start working on the attitude here, you being a sailing club member and all.

Firstly, I wasn't referring to only one instance, but many, the Bronkies was just one example. I wasn't on their grounds and I wasn't on their beach either but next to it.

I just came from a friend, asked him if he had any similar experiences, guess what the answer was ;)

I cannot talk for the individual idiot that ruins everything as far as he goes, as you say breaking bottles, make fires indiscretely and so on, you unfortunately get them everywhere. These are the ****** you have to take on.

We are an art lure club, there are two art lure clubs in the Gauteng area. We have an impeckable record - both clubs. We are the guys that cut our motors and idle past you sailers, we don't drink and cause problems on the water, and we're not a rowdy bunch that molest or spoil other people's fun.

In fact, we are the only angling facet that is allowed special privileges like fishing in estuaries and reserves. If nature conservation needs to make a survey on fish in certain dams, guess who they call. Do a search for ecocare.

On numerous occasions sailing club members and ground keepers have acted rude towards other boats and people, much of it we have experienced first hand. Other club members can confirm this, and if I remember right it was discussed at some of our meetings before as well.

I have tried to contact a few sailing clubs in my area, all with the same two outcomes - 1. we don't take people on pleasure rides and 2. you have to pay R X000.00 and join the club.

I don't even know these people why the heck would I part with my money just to belong to a club ? Imagine I rock up there after paying subs and it's the same myserable crowd we ran in to before... now we're joining them ? No man, it doesn't work like that. If I'm going to be associated with a club I would like to know at least who they are and get some kind of relationship going.

I'm also not saying all of them are like that, but I am saying we've had numerous unpleasant experiences.

The dams and the water doesn't belong to these bozo's, it belongs to the state but may me managed by affilliates. If I silently fish an area that nut head doesn't have the right to tell me to get going.

If every one suddenly claims a piece of water where no one else may go, where would it leave us, or the sailing guys for that matter ?

My suggestion is to take on the guys that cause trouble on the waters, wet bikes or jet ski's are a frustration to everyone, litter bugs that doesn't take home their own rubish and so on.

This is exactly the type of situation where one idiot causes problems but every one else has to take the rap for it. Adress the problem and don't take it out on everyone else.

[Fanie]

Why don't all the organized water users stand together and stomp out the trouble makers ? Put a big sign with every entrance saying trouble makers beware... bla bla bla.

Anyway. It's raining here which makes a nice excuse for not doing something on the tri... I guess any excuse would work.

[safewalrus]

Fanie, man that attitude is NOT restricted to South Africa. In sailing clubs you get two kind of people those that race and those that pose! Them as pose never go out but just drink and talk about how good they are! Those that race do much the same but occasionally they go out for a race and like racers everywhere (not just boat racers) once out racing they become the most pig ignorant anti social creatures on the planet*! there's only one thing on their mind - THE RACE - lesser mortals beware! Luckily when most of them get back to the clubhouse they slowly turn back into normal happy go lucky humans who will do what they can to help! Like all things there are some who cannot make the transition and remain pig ignorant, guess you found one of those. But as Tuk said they ain't all like that!

Then of course there are sailors - they tend to be out sailing! Or getting ready for the next sail, this of course involves many trips to the 'pub' where they are friendly people who as they know racers more than most avoid both racers and any stigma that could brand them as such.

You do often find 'crossbreeds' (poor racers who don't really want to race, just sail) sat in the corner of the clubhouse ignoring the racers and chatting amicably amongst themselves, go find them, they after all can be useful and fun - the problem is getting into the clubhouse.........if you want to!


* there are several others who get close but as most of them are not aquatic we won't go into them!

[Fanie]

Wally, being competitive shouldn't let you undergo a personality change, it's a sign of immaturity.

Now see what happened. I should have just done what everyone else is currently doing - not say anything about it and every one would have been happy still thinking like they do. Now Tuks isn't talking to me or he's away on holiday and one unhappy sailor.

I've made some guides for the tri's beams and glassed a bit on the inside to stiffen the hull... amazing how a sandwitched piece of foam stiffens up... Of course it rained again. While it was still clouded after the rain I carried the parts out in the open to commence, and half-way the sun came out. The SA sun tends to kick the resin into gear like you can't believe... you just cannot work fast enough.

I still have to make the mast's plug before I can glass the remainder of the parts in place. I'm making provision for the jib I'm trying out as well as a bermuda rig if I change my mind later on.

The tri now looks like the Wright brother's aeroplane.

[safewalrus]

Fanie I guess that tri will, er, Fly!! Though I think the Wright Brothers had more of a chance! (there again you 'don't actually want to leave the water completely - do you?)

As for the Racing thing - I'm not sure? I've met some really rational sane people and suddenly they are in a RACE! You wouldn't think they were the same people! Eyes bulging and all the other stuff - total arrogant obnoxious shits! There others of course who don't go that way, but they don't normally win!! So I guess there's something to say for it; if you want to win the race that is!......................................................me? I couldn't give a ****!

As the unofficial motto of a certain Regiment goes "who cares who wins!"

[Fanie]

All that drama and then only one wins... only the first one wins in any case.

Haven't done much on the try today, some other stuff had to be taken care of. At this rate things are going way too slow.

[Fanie]

The mast holder and front and aft deck is glassed in place. I've added two mast holders so I can switch between aft mast and bermuda. The gunnel (if you can call it a gunnel since it's only 20mm wide :rolleyes: is also glassed. It's beginning to look like something.

The amas and fittings to the beams are up next.

Couldn't get M10 SS screws long enough for the beams bolts :( so I have to make some from threaded rods.

I must say the allu mast I have is quite heavy, and bendy, considering. I might make a fiberglass mast at some stage... I bet it's going to be much stiffer. The mast holders is like a pipe I made, it came out rock hard and very stiff.

Can you believe it's Friday already, again !?

[Fanie]

Today was the first in three days I could spend time on the tri again :o

The amas are finally done but for the mountings to the beams. I can almost begin to assemble things.

[Fanie]

The little tri loosely assembled. I guess it all will stand over untill the 26th.

So close and yet so far

[masalai]

"Fanie's Fantastic Flyer" Is looking good!

[Fanie]

Glassed the mounting nuts into all three hulls. I've added some glass to make the beam mounting more sturdy. This will probably be the last thing to break by now :D

Tomorrow I will glass the beam ends and it can then be assembled. I still have to make a rudder. The mast holes can also be made. All small things but takes up a lot of time to do.

One thing I'm unsure about on the centre hull... the keel should be how long and how deep... do I need a keel at all ?

[Fanie]

Mast is up. Furling roller works beautifull.

[masalai]

I hope this is being well recorded with copious photos! Could make an excellent article for the Australian "Multihulls World" and the US/European mags too (pay for your work?) And well deserved!!!

[Fanie]

Beam ends done.

Rudder and keel to go...

[Fanie]

Hi Masalai, I doubt if anyone would be interested in my little project. Remember the thread's title is 'Sailing Experience' the idea is that I'm heading that away. I've taken plenty of pictures and I'll probably up a bunch of them on my web site once it's actually sailing. I'll put up some commentary to what works and what not. Some of this exercise is also an experiment for my Boxy Fisher cat... consider this as a kind of a model to test some things out.

[masalai]

Sweet, Fanie! Don't be-little your efforts & faith in yourself. It has potential!
Look here http://multihull.com.au/site/ I am sure your project merits at least as much as many others. Mainly yachties supporting their habit (staying at sea). There is an american mag "multihulls world" and without the "au" for a more anal presentation to cater for diminished intellectual capacity. (see marine industry market thread) :D :P :D

[longliner45]

looks good fanie! ,let us know how it flys,longliner

[Fanie]

The little try is almost ready for it's maiden voyage. The rudder is done, it can kick up and is easy to remove for trailing.

I got a Moto Guide 36lb thrust trolling motor from a friend I would like to mount before going out. From experience I by now know that if I take a sail boat out there is going to be absolutely no wind :D so just to make sure there is going to be wind I'll take the trolling motor with.

I have also cleaned everything up. The whole place was full of all kinds of debre, looked like a war zone. I didn't even know I had so much tools :rolleyes:. I also moved my power boat to where I can take it off the trailer (tomorrow) since the trailer has to do for the little tri for the time being.

I would have liked to go out tomorrow but my car's one rear wheel valve broke. Couldn't believe it. Pumping the flat takes about 20 mins, and gets flat again overnight. So I'll get that fixed up and also prepare the trailer. Seems like it's going to happen on new years day.

[masalai]

Good luck and fair weather for your sail! Have fun & enjoy.

[safewalrus]

Fanie - hope it all went well with the maiden voyage!!

[Fanie]

Eh Guys.

Sailing SUCK !! Bottom line ! I mean really. With all your 'fair weather' wishes the weather turned out so fair it was actually NO WIND. Just look at the picture. Does it look like one can get anywhere like this ? Please next time wish me **** weather and maybe the wind will blow.

Ok ok I'll admit it wasn't all your fault. The missus went with and I couldn't swear enough for the wind to pick up any. Sad to say, the new year started at a VERY QUIET note wrt the wind. The only time there was a li-hi-hi-hi-tel wind was when a powerboat went past :o Some even waved that shame f idiot on a sail boat wave.

Here's my SAILING EXPERIENCE for the day -

1 - You cannot sail if there is no wind.

2 - You cannot tack if there is no wind

3 - sailboats mysteriously drift in any direction if there is no wind including aftward

4 - Take an electric motor with (thank GOD I did... I hate rowing) or take a petrol motor with. Forget life jackets, fire extinguishers, bailing buckets, GPS's. The wife even wanted to take an extra pair of shoes with. Maybe she had some walking in mind which now almost sounds like the better idea :mad:

5 - As far as a skippers licence I should get a bloody medal for what I achieved today. How many of you can 'sail' form wind patch to wind patch over a 5km range AND tack A-hand almost make it back before dark ! Yeah !

6 - Checked speed on the GPS :rolleyes: The voice asked 'are you going to move or switch off to reserve battery power' (you cancel that with the fck off button) Top speed achieved in one of the random gusts was around 7 km/hr... I'm too ashamed to convert that to knots and put it up here.

7 - Put the sunscreen on before your feet turns bright red ! Oh. You know that.

8 - Wet bikes, power boats and rowing canoes are all much much faster than sail boats. As a matter of fact, the game in the reserve feed faster than sail boats goes. 'Oh look honey, the herd tacked again... they're feeding this way past us again...' :mad:

9 - 'Waiving' the rudder from side to side does not propel a sailboat any.

[longliner45]

look at the bright side ,,fanny,,,,at least it floats

[masalai]

Sorry Fanie, I was too busy ordering rain for Brisbane, which looks like persisting for 3 weeks (1.5 to go), but because of upper level windshear knocking off the tops of the clouds (all that wind leaving SA for some reason). Anyhow to blow in the moist cloud making air from the ocean, HE sent 30 to 40 knot stuff from the SE. Stuffed up the usual outdoors Xmas & New Year fireworks. We'll send it over when our dams are full. :D :D

[Fanie]

Yes it floated very well. Amazingly the sail made quite a bit of shade for the most part which was nice in our extreme sun.

Faults on the rig...

The sail from the mast to the loose end needs to be extended, it is about a meter too short. Would make for much better performance.

At rest both amas sits on the water, I suspect it will increase drag some so they could be made higher up. Will do this in due time.

The mast bends some when you do encounter a gust of wind. I may look at adding two aft stays. We got one or two fair gusts but I never got the impression the mast would break. I should take it out in a wind storm and see if I can bugger anything up. Eliminate the weak parts.

Tacking happens too slow, it may be due to both amas in the water but it may become better if the rudder is a bit larger ?

I haven't put any keel on the centre hull, this may also improve tacking, some advice from you guys here would be appreciated.

I must say the hulls go through waves (made by the powerboats) quite well and the little tri is stable all round.

The only forces I could detect was sideways 'washing' between the centre hull and amas, creating a slight sideways shaking effect.

The sailing is quite easy, can sail anywhere. Unfortunately the wind really changed direction every 5 mins and it wasn't too exciting to go anywhere fast.

I will invest in a small (2 - 5hp) outboard for days like yesterday.

[safewalrus]

Think positive Fanie, what a beautiful day to laze on a boat teaching a worm to swim with a tinny in your hand, shades on and laid back smooth! The sort of day the wife and her mates would love - for a sailor it to has it's advantages, just what I'm not sure but there must be some somewhere??

The thing is you got afloat and proved the damn thing floated, far better than lauching into the teeth of a howling gale that takes all your hardwork and smashes it against the rocks and straight to the bottom!

[Fanie]

One of my non-technical friends quickly calculated the centre hull could carry about 4 cu meter of water which is about four tons so if it gets a hole in it and the foam I used for the centre hull would carry about 200kg... this thing is going to sink like a rock :D

Don't worry uncle Wallie... I'll just take the thing out again. One thing I noticed the dam I was on made a V on one place and for the life of me couldn't get back past the V... the little patches of wind there were kept on changing direction. So the land created different direction flows... buggered any attempt to get out up. I got out all right, just sailed past the V (at about 1/2 km/hr :rolleyes: and headed up that shoreline.

Maybe another lesson would be is to stay off the narrow dams. Head for the BIG ones. If I'm not mistaken our ave inland wind speed here is around 4 -6m/sec while at the coast it's 18m/sec.

[safewalrus]

Fanie you ain't gona break any water speed records with that kinda wind, but think positive! If that centre hull can carry 4 cubes of water think how much ice and tinnies it can carry (as well as you of course) enough beer there so's you wouldn't give a 'fishes t*t' about the speed - now that's living!!

[Fanie]

Fanie you ain't gona break any water speed records with that
Eh uncle Wallie - SAYS WHO !! I may land up in a tornado with this thing and get blowed past one of the thousands and thousands of speed camara's on our roads. I will be issued an official document WITH the speed, time date and so on. They also send you a crappy picture with which is very overpriced for the amount payable for it ;)

Well, if one can determine the density of 'tinnies' it may even serve as extra boyancy... like fuel is lighter than water. The idea would be to empty the drinks from one side and fill the empty spots with fish, so when you're out of drink and full of fish you know it's time to leave...

I went to get some more fishing experience for a couple of days. Got hooked into the biggest bass I ever saw... lookied like one of these things you see in thriller movies... must have been a meter long ! No kiddin. It was a monster. Snapped the 20lb line in the trees as it took off like it didn't exist. Just got broken up twice, but the 2nd one was about 4kg's to the nearest lamp pole.

A friend and myself may go for another spin in the little tri this weekend. Hope for some bad weather.

I have found out how to resolve this wind thing. If the wind blows you sail. If there's no wind you fish, so the thing would be to take fishing stuff with and you pretend to go fishing then the wind blows and you can sail.

I was wondering for what kinds of crafts do one need a 'skippers licence'. It seems some guys take 'surf canoe's' and peddle them out to behind the brakers. No laws for that it seems and it seems like more risk to become shark food or bad weateher victims than using a proper boat.

[masalai]

Well done Fanie, good to see you on the water & having fun. Sorry I am not allowed to give you brownie points at the moment?

[Fanie]

Hi Masalai. I'm of opinion it is the weaving of the waves you feel when you get into bed after a day on the water that is so highly addictive. I love to be on the water.

What the heck is a brownie point ? My dad used to tell us kids a Dalmation has 364 spots, and when you pick the tail up you see spot number 365. Is that the brownie point you're referring to ? :D :rolleyes:

[masalai]

Have a look at the bar above a post, next to the post number is "Post Feedback" that is where you can give "points" to express your appreciation to a contributor (or deduct same). I always add my name" -mas- " as no identification otherwise, particularly if deducting. The next one is to draw the moderator's attention - get the poster banned????
Cheers -mas-

[Fanie]

Put another SIX hours of sailing under my belt :rolleyes: today.

This sailing thing is a wee-wee. If there's wind you sail. If there's no wind you drift. I got on the water at 13h00 and at least I could sail away from the shore to great fascination of the anglers on the shore, te-he... who watched the funny thing being assembled that grew and grew... The wind was very mild, and a few mono's was also splashing around. I fluttered for about 5km (I have a 5km boundary ?) when the wind died down AGAIN. It was getting personal now. The mono's all went in with their little outboards.
Now I couldn't 'go in' so I drifted around a bit... about half an hour or so when the wind picked up again. The evidence...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJzE6HmIYNI
Now from the movie you'll see -
1 - the mast bends too much, I'll have to add stays to keep it up.
2 - The sail was made too small, I have already drawed it over for the sailmaker, it will add 30% or more of sailing area.
3 - I get too much side drift on a reach so I'll have to add a daggerboard. Tacking is a bastard (so I tack the wrong way around... yuk) especially when there's wind, it pushes the hull right back. I get about 45 deg (maybe slightly more, 90 - 100 deg) sailing windward, but the daggerboard and stiffer mast (forestay) could improve this some.
4 - the aft mast works. There are a couple of things that seems important.
a - the angle of the sail it makes with the boat centre. Remember there's no boom, so the sail wants to fly upward.
b - the tie down position for it, should be adjustable port to more port and starboard to more starboard.
c - if you tuck the sail in real close you get a better close-haul angle, but you sacrifice some speed.
d - When the wind gets a move on there are quite some forces on the clew rope, so an auto-tacking device with adjustable distance from the centre should ease up on muscle power some. You could just slide it out the distance you want it for max speed.
e - If you watch the sail you can see by the way it ball under the wind's force where you get max force and thus max speed. The sail makes kind of a roundness in the sail, when the roundness is in the centre of the sail you get max force.
f - there's more to take into consideration, didn't have enough wind and time to fiddle with it :o

It seems trimarans is a new thing in our area. No less than six boats stopped by and demanded to know what this thing was. One mono followed me for quite a while during the no-wind period to have a closer look. I'm thinking of making an audio tape I can play each time someone wants to know what it was :D

Today's sailing was better, if the wind would just blow consistent for a while it would be nice too you know...

[masalai]

Nice, Fanie.
Looks like lots more tension in forestay by tightening backstay as needed. Jibe turning may be easiest, as you said. Wait till you get forestay straight in a bit of wind (15knots) and speed/tacking will be easier.
This is where the money gets spent - yacht fittings are EXPENSIVE - a track curved so as to follow the foot of the sail but about .5 m beyond??, have it so that the "carr" carrying the sheet block can be pulled and locked in place, from side to side. Increase purchase by sheet rope going from "carr" to block at foot of sail back to block on carr thence to your hand. - half the effort. If that is not enough start the sheet at the foot of the sail, to the block (double) at the carr then back to sail back down to carr then to your hand - for a 3 to one advantage. ( I will probably get some technical expert cry me down but you should get the drift of the idea regardless or terminology.)

[Fanie]

The yacht fitting are expensive, so I just make my own ;)

Thanks for the advice, I will consider the pulley system for when the auto tacker is up. If the carr track is streight instead of curved (no boom, remember) it may well auto-adjust to it's best position, but I will have to play with it some. Maybe steal some of the curtain rollers here and put them back before the wife notice ;)

I must admit the mast bending is irritating.

[masalai]

I think you will find, curved works better. put a small cam-cleat either end and small sheet attached to each side of the carr. In tacking upwind setting the windward side to its best position will set you up for "auto tacking" of the carr.

[Fanie]

Thanks Masalai, I'm going to attend to it shortly.

[charmc]

Eh Guys.

Sailing SUCK !! .... As far as a skippers licence I should get a bloody medal for what I achieved today. How many of you can 'sail' form wind patch to wind patch over a 5km range AND tack A-hand almost make it back before dark ! Yeah !

Fanie,

Hey, mate, I know it's frustrating, but the ability to wring some movement towards home by finding the patches of barely moving air is a critical sailing skill. Look at those guys sailing round the globe in those super-big multimillion (insert currency of choice) tri's. 25-30 knots for weeks on end, then for several days lucky to make 2 knots!

I did spend a miserable 3 hours once sailing back 2 miles/3 km to the pier in a rented sloop whose aux power was a rather small paddle. In retrospect, I could have made faster progress by lowering the sails, sitting in the bow, and paddling this 1 ton canoe back to port. :rolleyes:

I loved your tale of being smart-mouthed by your GPS. :D

On the other hand, you're going to be a real expert before too long, 'cause you're getting out and doing it. Good luck, mate!

[Fanie]

Hi Charmc, I didn't know there were more suckers like me :D and I refuse to take up an oar to row with :o

Our inland winds are nothing to brag about, and the ave windspeed per year is just a few kts, while at the coast it's around 18kts. I've never been at the coast when the wind wasn't livin it up. Since I want to build myself a sea going motorized (note MOTORIZED :D) SAILER I need to get to terms with sailing as well.

If you live on motors only it means large tanks and expensive fuels, I guess I'm stingy. Since the use of wind is for free (for now at least) it is an alternative way to move. I like the idea to have the option.

The windless parts although frustrating gives one time to think about your sins, not that we have any :rolleyes: Seems I will have to get the little outboard as well. Maybe a little 200 VMax eh ! for when the wind's not blowing ;)

I have to work through my little rig and see if I can sort the problems out, they give me valuable insight in what will be required for the larger rig. I have gained a lot of insight in some things already, hull behaviour in wind for one.

We have one resource where one may get some REAL experience other than little dams and the sea, Bloemhof dam. I'm not ready for it yet, but that will be where things get tested and sorted out for the worst of the worst ;) I have at times thought it's worse than the sea. Especially this one patch is really bad, and the fish is always on the other side of it. Why ?

So far the sailing part is the easy part. It seems the equipment and it's handling and operation is where it all gets tied to.

Thanks all for your responses, replies and advice. It helps a lot.

[masalai]

Fanie, maintaining sails and all the stuff that keeps them up is surprisingly expensive. 10 years ago - around par with fuel powered boats (displacement not outboard speed type)

[Fanie]

Well, I guess everything costs money. And yes things are expensive. I still like the idea to be able to use motors or sails depending on the situation.

If there is a moderate wind available I'm sure you can travel without using the fuel. If there is limited wind or a situation comming up then it would be nice to have the option.

I plan to keep the sail as simple as possible without being rediculous, and this is the sole reason for building the little trimaran. If the aft mast works well enough for my liking - and so far it has real potential - it's what the Boxy Fisher will get too since no one else seems to try to build such a 'rediculous' sailing setup.

This setup is easy and economic to make and requires no special profiles. A simple furling roller roll's it up and you can even decide how big a sail you want to use depending on the weather. It is quick to furl if you have to stop quickly when you fish, and if you have to follow a fish on the run you can switch to the outboards.

If you double the sail you can fly each clew on it's own side when running, one port, the other starboard and it's nothing else than a genoa then. It will just require two carr's on the same rail.

This sail has a lot of lift, during my last go I only got the one hull pushed down slightly, the windward hull barely lifting. With the windrider I sailed with the bermuda rig the hulls got submerged completely at times... had me worried a little.

The sail I have currently is due for some serious mods. Once done I'll try the changes and see how well they perform. I'm sure a tri tacks easier than a cat, so I will have to keep such things in mind too.

[masalai]

Yes, other energy sources are handy, particularly in the middle of the ocean :D - - - also gives the option to sail higher into the wind or use only the iron sail.

Other guys have an interest in aft masts, have you seen Yipster's gallery? Also - "sorry memory failure - abort retry or quit" :D :D - Sorry can't remember name - a kiwi who designed & built a sail powered game-fishing boat!!! and several others I have seen around this net.

"If you double...." is usually referred to as a "hitch hiker rig", after John Hitch - who is out cruising. I like that style too. I will stick to cats - to each his own....

[Fanie]

Correct me if I have it wrong -

Remember, this aft mast sail (or jib if you like) is the only sail and the main sail. Reason, simplicity.

It seems the length of the sail of the aft mast setup along the foot of the sail should be the distance from the furling roller to the mast plus 20 to 25%, since you never sail with the sail in the centre. This will also only be true if the carr or cleat sits in line with, or runs just before the mast.

It may well be possible to have the foot of the mast extend beyond the mast by quite some distance if you have a winch or cleat that it could be tied to. This would increase sailing area (and speed) by quite a bit. The sail would look more like a pyramid instead of the jib triangular shape.

I am looking for a way to have the foot of the sail extended downward, as well as on the leach. If it is possible to, with the help of a rope to each, be able to tie the extra sail area to the foot and to the leach it will be great.

With the foot and the leach tied you will sail in a close haul. The extra sail would be out of the way and the main sail can be tied up close.

Then when you change direction to beam reach, broad reach or running you would slacken the foot rope and leech rope, thus deploying the extra sailing area. The extra sailing area could enhance speed by quite a bit.

Any ideas ?

[Fanie]

Battens that sits parallel with the forestay could also be used, the sail could still be furled with them. The leech's shape could then be similar to the bermuda's to add sailing area.

[Fanie]

Yipster's gallery? Also - "sorry memory failure - abort retry or quit" - Sorry can't remember name

Where do I find Yipster's gallery ?

I have Altzheimers lite too. May soon upgrade to pro. Some days I'm so through each other (confused) I... I... feel almost like uh... YOU :D

[Fanie]

Ok, Don't answer, I found yipster's gallery. Will take a closer look but te-he... it looks he's got some flapping things (wings) :D on some of the rocket launchers :D :D

I especially like the one that folds up and becomes smaller and smaller untill you can put it in your car's boot. :D

Sorry Yipster, couldn't resist :rolleyes: I may steal some of your ideas there ;)

[Fanie]

I srill needs some opinion / argument / advice / hints / tips / suggestions / whatever on post no 143 please.

[Trevlyns]

Fanie!

Haven't been following the thread that closely.Sorry! :(

Give us your querie "in a nutshell" and I may be able to get the ball rolling.

I'm working on a "rotating/canting" crabclaw type thingie for my proa.

Love to swap some ideas....

[Fanie]

Trev, have a look at post 143 of this thread.

What would the implications be if the centre of sail force is somewhere between the rudder and the daggerboard (more aft), instead of being in the centre of the hull(s) ?

Reason for asking this is, with the single aft mast in a close haul the centre of sail force could be behind the hull centre, then when reaching, the sail is let out some and the centre of sail force is moved foreward and should be closer or maybe just foreward of the hull centre.

[charmc]

Correct me if I have it wrong -

Remember, this aft mast sail (or jib if you like) is the only sail and the main sail. Reason, simplicity.

It seems the length of the sail of the aft mast setup along the foot of the sail should be the distance from the furling roller to the mast plus 20 to 25%, since you never sail with the sail in the centre. This will also only be true if the carr or cleat sits in line with, or runs just before the mast.

It may well be possible to have the foot of the mast extend beyond the mast by quite some distance if you have a winch or cleat that it could be tied to. This would increase sailing area (and speed) by quite a bit. The sail would look more like a pyramid instead of the jib triangular shape.

I am looking for a way to have the foot of the sail extended downward, as well as on the leach. If it is possible to, with the help of a rope to each, be able to tie the extra sail area to the foot and to the leach it will be great.

With the foot and the leach tied you will sail in a close haul. The extra sail would be out of the way and the main sail can be tied up close.

Then when you change direction to beam reach, broad reach or running you would slacken the foot rope and leech rope, thus deploying the extra sailing area. The extra sailing area could enhance speed by quite a bit.

Any ideas ?


OK, feedback. It sounds a bit like you're describing a single sail with a huge amount of belly, to be deployed as both a close hauled foil for pointing and a sort of asymetric spinnaker for reaching and for running downwind. If that's what you mean, the concern would be stress at the attachment points for your lines that haul the sail material forward of the mast and below the boom. Trimming could be another issue. I will never try to dissuade out of the box thinking, but I wonder if the increased efficiency of multiple sails might not offset the inconvenience.

On the other hand, cat and lateen rigs perform well with only one sail. Building on that idea might help.

[charmc]

Multiple sails are often viewed as costly, but it all depends on your point of view. :) :)

[charmc]

What would the implications be if the centre of sail force is somewhere between the rudder and the daggerboard (more aft), instead of being in the centre of the hull(s) ?

Reason for asking this is, with the single aft mast in a close haul the centre of sail force could be behind the hull centre, then when reaching, the sail is let out some and the centre of sail force is moved foreward and should be closer or maybe just foreward of the hull centre.

It seems that the record breaking Idec has a center of effort aft of center on a close haul.

[Trevlyns]

Hi Fanie,

Re Post 149

Para 1 - The simple answer is that it would slew the bows to weather causing lee helm.

Think of the daggerboard as the pivoting point. Force produced aft of this point would push the stern away from the wind, requiring a compensation of the rudder to maintain a straight course.

Para 2 - See Para 1. Moving from close hauled to a reach will still have the centre of effort behind the pivoting point – albeit to a lesser degree.

From what I’ve read on this forum in the last two years, the place for CE on a catamaran is as near as dammit to the centre of the craft.

Lekker bly boet! :)

[Trevlyns]

Charlie!

Thanks for the points mate. How do you do it?!! :confused:

Missed your post while I was composing my reply to fellow saffa Fanie.

Your example of course, is a trimaran and using the basic logic in my previous reply, the lee hull takes the place of a daggerboard in a cat and is obviously distributed over a “longer” area – minimising the pivot effect.

Well that’s my reply and I’m sticking to it!! :p

Keep well, fella

[Fanie]

Thanks Charmc,

Dunno if this will make any sense, looking at the picture -
The top row is what I experiende currently, and what the sail looks like.

During a close haul, the sail is full and ok
When reaching the sail is let out some, but with the effect it flies up some
When running the sail is out to the side and up

If it would be possible to 'add' the extra sail area on the sail foot and the leech like in the middle row -

During a close haul no change, the extra sail is 'tucked in'
When reaching the extra sail area can fill in the gap between the deck and enlarge the leach area also, since the sail flies upward and allows for fairly large sail areas that can be added.
When running the sail area would also benefit.

The bottom two images -

Left one is the standard sail running on a self tacking carr (red line). Centre of sail force is about in the centre of the hull. Sail is the triangular sail like a jib.

Right is the extended sail size with more of a pyramid form. The clew extends beyond the mast, and the red line is the carr's path of movement for self-tacking.

[Trevlyns]

See? It’s happened again. I missed your brilliant cartoon

Thanks Charlie!

[Fanie]

Nice joke ;)

Just to explain again - the mast is at the rear of the boat, the REAR (AFT, BACK :D)

The sail extends to the front from the masthead with a cable and furling roller. There are no booms, Trev.

The clew, (loose end) is where the sail control is done from. Goes onto a MULTIHULL.

[Trevlyns]

… and yet AGAIN!!

Fanie, I missed your reply to charmc while replying to charmc’s reply!?! :confused:

Can’t keep up with the pace here, man. The Friday night liquid refreshment doesn’t help either.

[Thinks…] Friday night liquid refreshment… get involved in threads?

Whoa! :D I think we have an answer there, lads.

See ya in the morning!

[deepsix]

1. It is ok to have the genoa overlap the mast. The major problem is that spreaders and rigging are in the way.

2. You are obliged to keep a lookout, if you are on port you must give way to a vessel on starboard. These are the rules of the road which you must follow. In addition, ships occasionally run down small boats at sea, it is one of the dangers you must face, so it is important to keep a look out for ships. You only have a few minutes from when you can see them on the horizon untill they hit you and you die. For this reason many cruisers will have their jibs cut high so you can see underneath them.

3. Your plan to roll up the sail is not new. This is how headsails were reefed before roller furling. It works similarly to slab reefing. If you look at the mini transat boats you will see multiple attachment points along the luff and leech of the genoa and also on the spinnakers. You will not be able to furl your sail with the bottom rolled up so it is probably not such a good idea. If you want more sail area on a reach a staysail would be far simpler.

http://www.bymnews.com/photos/displayimage.php?pid=46365&fullsize=1

4. Trev explained how the sail will cause your boat to handle strangely if the sail force is infront of or behind the hull center. My experience shows me that it is only really important when going upwind(and reaching with monster spinnakers on long sprits). The force a sail produces is perpendicular to the sail surface, so when you are going upwind most of the sail is pulling sideways, and the balance is important. As soon as you free off a little onto a reach, you ease the sail and a significant part of the sail is pulling forward and does not have an effect on the pivot point. On any course beyond a beam reach the leech area of the sail is probably stalled because if the massive belly in the sail anyway.

5. I think you are going to have problems in strong wind. If you were to get into a storm and furl your sail so only a small amount remained, you would find that you can not sail upwind because the sail force is very far forward. This will pull the bow of your boat away from the wind, onto more of a reaching course(Lee helm). This is a very dangerous situation to be in, in big waves. The aft mast rig in brians original form had a mizzen which would be used to balance the boat, so would not suffer the same problems. Now consider that you want outboards on the transom. I personally do not like outboards because they can spend alot of time out of the water when there are large waves. Maybe you have considered this in your design, but this is my personal experience.

You should really consider adding a staysail, it might be in the correct location for good balance as a storm sail and could be used for extra area on a reach. At least buy a second hand one and try it out. Google "used sails"

Note : You have never told us what keel/skeg/rudders you are using and I am also not sure what you sailplan will really look like. So some of the assumptions I have made may be false.

Disclaimer : Im an idiot. I do not know what i am talking about. I am here for entertainment purposes and anything I say should not be trusted. If you want good information, read a book published by a suitably qualified NA and dont listen to what people on the internet have to say.

[Fanie]

In addition, ships occasionally run down small boats at sea, it is one of the dangers you must face, so it is important to keep a look out for ships. You only have a few minutes from when you can see them on the horizon untill they hit you and you die.
Gee whiz Deepsix, thanks for the encouraging words here... although I cannot immagine it being worse than our roads with taxi's on them :D TBH you have to have 360 deg vision here... it comes with practice and bad experiences :D

So if a tanker bumps into me, you recon I'll have some damages to the boat ? How much damage will they have ? :D

Just mocking you... I know they're bigger and heavier than trains. Not worse than taxi's though. I bet they don't follow you to shoot at you ;)

On a slightly more se ri ous note - thanks for the advice. I've some more things to find out regarding sails, so all advice and critique appreciated.

The comments wrt being in a storm is valued, nice weather there never is a problem. I will certainly consider another smaller more centre sail for stormy conditions.

The planned sail setup is really simple, a single sail (now maybe two :rolleyes:) for sailing. Mast aft of the cabin and a single main sail used that looks like a jib. The storm jib could be detached from the deck so the main jib sail works as originally planned and then only connect the storm jib when less nice weather (wind) is under way. The main sail can then be furled and acts just as a stay for the mast.

I haven't decided a specific position for the daggerboards yet. I may position them foreward of the hull centre or even have two daggerboards per hull, one at the centre line and one more foreward.

[Fanie]

The main sail area is about 50m^2.
How does 22m^2 sounds for the storm jib ? It would fit in quite nicely and leave a gap to check out for tankers ;)

[deepsix]

Im not really sure what size would be suitable for your boat, i would guess that 22m2 would be a usefull sail but if the sail is intended for survival conditions I might make it a little smaller. Google "Storm Trysail" and "Storm Jib" you might find something usefull. They are usually flourecent orange.

From the deck of a boat you can only see three of four miles or so, so if a tanker is doing 20kts is only takes about 10min from when he appears over the horizon until he gets to you. It can be quite surprising to suddely spot a ship near by. Also some ships may have a large blind spot directly infront, because the captain cannot see below the level of the bow, and I imagine picking up a small boat with white sails when there are breaking waves and spray around is probably quite difficult. Try and get an active radar reflector, that way they should see you from miles away.

[Fanie]

Hi Deepsix,

I'll see which size similar size boats use. Orange or yellow is a good color.

It's surprizing how fast a tanker thravels eh ! I think even with the bright fluorescent sail it's not going to make much difference. What, the guy in the tanker is going to slam on brakes (or make a handbreak turn :D) ? Even if he does spot you and goes over you I doubt he's going to make it aft in time to throw you the life ring, even if he is fit, and then to which part of you does he throw it to ? Even then if miraculously you're alive you're going to drown in the time the life ring takes to hit the water ;)

[masalai]

It's not only how fast they travel, It's how long do they take to change course SAFELY (for them) and who (on their bridge) is looking anyway?

DO NOT COUNT ON EITHER, or ANY action from the tanker (or any large commercial vessel) - might is right:D

Keep hull (and sail) colours to ensure your personal comfort (heat & glare) and fit a modern 24mile (no point in larger) radar with anchor watch set for "wake up & check" every 10 minutes with audible alarm (or whatever you need to become alert on your watch or die).... . . . Lets take a case, on this perfect day you are exceeding expectations and doing 20 knots !:D coming at you from dead ahead is a tanker , low in the water, likewise doing 20 knots. at 24 miles your radar may pick up the vessel but don't count on it. If properly set up, 10 minutes later at next scan, is 9 miles away. This is when you need to take immediate evasive action - if not sooner... Radar is just an aid. Do not count your life on it. It is an electronic machine - at least 2 reasons that it may fail to function add murpheys law & other failures then remember your eyes are the best insurance policy.

That is why yachties should organise watches - so someone is awake and KEEPING a GOOD LOOKOUT- AT ALL TIMES...:D You very seldom hear of small ships being hit by larger vessels - mostly "lost at sea???"

We had a foreign ship entering Brisbane a month or so ago & destroyed a commercial fishing boat in its correct place - the cargo boat was off course well away from the designated shipping channel...

[Fanie]

Hello Masalai,

I have on my list of electronic equipment to be implemented a timer alarm that would buz softly for 30 seconds, if not acknowledged then a siren goes off. Give everyone the chance to crap the watch out for sleeping :D Third time, the watch gets disposed of overboard.

The turning of a tanker is something like 25km.

I'm just thankfull Eskom, our electricity supplier here in SA isn't into boating... they won't have lights on their vessels on for you to see :D

All my equipment will have double or triple backup / confirmation... which is what makes me a bit po with my fishing buddies who doesn't do a bit of research on being out on the sea... they just assume they'll pick up as we go along.

[masalai]

Eskom must own some, for lights are sometimes off!!! - seen it :D

[Fanie]

Oh dear...

[Fanie]

I have put pictures up of the Little Tri. You can have a look here

http://www.faze.co.za/Little%20Tri.html

[charmc]

Fanie,

That's a great job for 2 1/2 weeks build time! She looks good on the water. I'm looking forward to hearing how she goes into the wind with that rig.

[Fanie]

Thanks Charlie. I'm actually surprized that she sits so high on the water, you can't climb out of her, you have to climb down :D

I was looking at it earlier tonight, and I wondered why I haven't made it larger :rolleyes: but then it occured to me I've got to save some space for the cat. Some small things have to be done yet...

[masalai]

A fantastic documentary work, and construction. Good on you Fanie, All praise deserved & due. Geoff will only allow these tokens ::::: ::::: ::::: ::::: :D, use them wisely.:D

[Fanie]

Ahem... Thanks Masalai, it is however not complete yet.

Who is Geoff and can I sell the tokens... I want to get going on the cat :D Shortage of money holding me back.

How are tokens 'used'

I'm not getting all my mail reply mails ! Keep on missing... :mad:

[masalai]

Fanie, at this point in time, you have (look at the right hand end, just below the separator bar above your post) a "Rep" of 178 for 897 posts (You are getting close to the thousand post graduation mark :D)... Now above that is "Post Feedback" click on the post of someone else there & there is where "brownie points" are added - put a little comment & "sign" so the recipient knows who was pleased....:D:D:D

The "tokens" are self replicating replacement because Jeff says "you must spread it around first". Use in front of a "D" or a "P" to make as many :D or :P as you like :D:D:D:D:D

[Fanie]

Right.

Arrived at my friend's place on thursday afternoon. We started launching his fleet of stuff he keeps at the dam... a power boat, two jet ski's, his windrider trimaran, a canoe and one of those things that looks like a bug you sit on and someone tows you behind a motorboat on it, almost like a tube. I swear if he had some of those inflatable things the kids put their arms through, he'd have taken them out as well :D

My friend found a jib in between some stuff he got inside a house he bought so we fitted that to the baby trimaran on Friday and took it for a spin. made quite a difference, but not much wind, most we could get out of it was probably about 10 - 15km/hr.

The jib made quite a difference. I was wondering if the 6m mast with the jib would outperform an 8m sail without a jib on the same boat ?

Saturday was the fishing comp, and that afternoon during the weigh-in I noticed the wind picked up nicely, so I slipped out for a spin.

Sailed the leeward hull right under the water, spray and foam flying everywhere. After a couple of spins over the dam and back I picked one of the guys up that was fishing with us to sit on the windward hull trying to get more speed. Didn't help much. :D At about 20 to 30 km/hr the leeward hull gets burried completely and the centre hull then starts doing the same ! The downward pushing the bermuda main sail does....

The people wathing was quite impressed with the ball of spray we created so there was a bit of entertainment as well. My friend thought it appropriate to create some extra waves with the jetski for us to go thrashing through. You know, wild isn't wild enough :rolleyes: Did some really nice and wet sailing for a change.

During the escapades there it occured to me it could have been really nice if the friends little tri had an aft mast setup to add some lift to keep those hulls out of the water. Might have added quite a bit of speed. I couldn't take mine unfortunately since the sail is in for mods :mad:

Great fun. Learned some new things. Will apply.

This sailing thing is a wee-wee :D

[charmc]

Thanks Charlie. I'm actually surprized that she sits so high on the water:D

Well, you're one up on David Vann!! :D :D (Build a boat, do a lap thread)

[charmc]

Fanie,

I'm a bit confused (I'm blaming your post, but it could be my brain misfiring :) ). Did you sail during good winds in your or your friend's baby tri?

Oh, yes. Might be a good idea to check the weather forecasts to avoid trying to sail on beautiful windless days. :D :D

[Fanie]

Hi Charlie,

Did you sail during good winds in your or your friend's baby tri?
Indeed -

My sail was in for a bit of a mod, so I sailed with the friends tri. I got my sail back this morning... it looks much bigger now and is in fact too long :-( so I'll have to mod the cleats a bit.

You have to keep in mind these inland weather forecast can really be anything, and the dam we sailed on is only about 1 km wide. I'm sure if the design was a bit more liberate with respect to bouyancy on the windrider it would be able to achieve better speeds.

I'm still wondering if I must fit a fixed keel to the tri or would a daggerboard be better ? and why that one ?

[Fanie]

I'm doing it again - the friend's got a windrider tri. Mine I built myself. We sailed with his baby trimaran this weekend, mine's sail was in for mods.

I haven't put a keel or rudder on my self-built little trimaran yet, hence the

'I'm still wondering if I must fit a fixed keel to the tri or would a daggerboard be better ? and why that one ?'

[Fanie]

Nobody knows ? Which is better - a daggerboard of a fixed keel ?

[masalai]

Come on Fanie, You should know now that every design consideration is a compromise, Will I point higher, Will I be faster etc.... A well designed keel or centreboard will not be significantly different - at this point in time go for the easiest to install/set-up as you seem to be a man in a hurry - I suggest the quickest to set up (install)...:D

[Fanie]

Well, it's not that simple. The keel will be more comfortable since you don't have to worry about it, but it will increase draft. Running you can extract the daggerboard which you can't with a keel and the daggerboard is another thing to deal with.

Does a daggerboard have any significant advantage ? I've never used one.

[masalai]

So it is a personal decision, ask your wife - she will tell you :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:P

Read my lips, they don't move whilst I am typing:D, Not sufficient difference to warrant beyond convenience & ability to get back sailing & fishing.....

[Fanie]

I'm sure me ol witch will tell me lots of things :D once she landed with her broom :D

[charmc]

Does a daggerboard have any significant advantage ? I've never used one.

"Daggerboard or centerboard options will be available. The daggerboard is the simplest and most efficient ... " Ian Farrier, Kiwi designer of trailerable Farrier 22.

"Draft (hull only) 1' 0" (0.3 m) — Draft (board down) 4' 8" (1.4 m)" Corsair 24 trailerable trimaran specs

"A trimaran with a centerboard or a daggerboard is generally faster and can point higher than a similar-size catamaran with fixed keels or daggerboards in the hulls." Sail Magazine, 2007 Buyers Guide

For such a small tri, I was thinking a daggerboard would be simplest, but apparently designers feel there are performance benefits also.

Your wife will probably agree with them. :D :D :D

[Fanie]

The wife may feel the same way if I get a daggerboard too :D

I may go for the daggerboard because when retracted the draft is very shallow.

Would it work better slightly foreward of the sail centre force position ?

[charmc]

Many side views of Farrier's F22 here. Daggerboard just aft of the mast.

http://www.f-boat.com/pages/trimarans/F-22.html

Another tri, same location.

http://www.f-boat.com/pages/trimarans/F-82.html

More same:
http://www.edhorstmanmultihulldesigns.com/specs/TRI-18_3view.pdf

http://www.graingerdesigns.com.au/stock-plan-detail-145.php

Could be a trend. :D :D

[Fanie]

Well, my mast is 500mm from the transom. I'll have to combine the rudder and the daggerboard then :D

Don't worry, I think I will want it just slightly foreward of the sail centre of force. Female instinct if you want ;)

[charmc]

On a Bermuda rig, just aft of the mast is a bit forward of the main's center of force. I forgot you're inventing a new rig as well as building your first tri. Eating the whole haggis, as our Scots pals would put it! :D :D

I do wonder if moving it (the daggerboard, not the mast) too far aft would tend to drive the bows under in a stiff breeze?

[Fanie]

Last time I sailed my aft masted little tri - in the two hours of mild wind there was - it didn't have a daggerboard or keel on it (lots of side-drift ;)) with the mast aft it sat right on top of the water. The hulls would burrow more if I stand on them.

My friends bermuda sailed tri's hulls goes right under - he said since we fitted the jib he can feel the amount of lift the jib gives. Before the jib he couldn't go faster than 16km/hr as the hull's would sink into the water - with the jib we got between 20 and 30km/hr.

Now I've never been in any kind of wind that I could say is lifting my tri up out of the water, but it defenately doesn't push the hull's into the water like the bermuda does. You can look at it sailing here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJzE6HmIYNI

The sailing area is about 8m^2, the mast is bending a lot without stays, so the forestay goes really limp, nou daggerboard or keel. I was on a reach when I took the video, watch the leeward hull. You'll also note the windward hull doesn't lift much.

[charmc]

Looks like just forward of center of effort would be just forward of those ugly feet.:D

Different rig, same propulsive force, same location for the 'board, should work!

[Fanie]

I have since increased the sailing area to 12m^2 (from 8m^2) - got the sails back on Monday.

I was wondering if it is going to make a big difference :D

[Fanie]

Looks like just forward of center of effort would be just forward of those ugly feet
That's ok, I just walk on them, or do the steering with them. TBH in general I couldn't care what they looked like :D

[Manie B]

Fanie you have done a remarkable job (blood - sweat - tears) your build photo pages are fantastic. GO MAN GO

[Fanie]

What happened to moonlight and roses... ?

I have some more work to do on the little tri but things keeps on interfering with it. And now Charlie is hinting I should do something about my stompers as well.

[masalai]

Hay you saffers, look out where you pee.... News break, some "white guys were caught pissing on food and giving it to the cleaners at the uni to eat - idiots videord their effort... Effing ijiots - in front of the courts now & many locals are wanting more than blood......

[Fanie]

Probably propaganda. Where did you see this ?

[masalai]

Here http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/28/2174722.htm?section=justin

[Fanie]

On the little tri -

I had the sail made larger from 8m^2 to 12m^2 and added aft stays to keep the mast from bending so much. The centre of sail force is more or less smack centre, and no I don't have a daggerboard or keel yet.

Now something funny is happening. It happened twice thile trying to tack that the tri stalled (in irons) and started to drift sideways ! like a crab. Weirdest thing. The only way I could get out of it was to let the sail out (remember it's an aft mast sail) that would push the nose more downwind.

The other thing that is weird, before I could tuck the sail in really tight, however with the bigger sail I have to let it out more to get max speed with the result I'm sailing with a bigger bulge in the sail, female instict tells me it should be like before... streight(er) ?

[Fanie]

Hi Masalai, you have to relaize that video was unasked for. There a lot of stupid things like that going on, but only the 'white' acts are screamed about. They wouldn't publish anything about the things the black chefs throw into white people's food in restaurants...

If someone breaks into a 'whities' house and shoot at him the police won't come out. If you bitch slap a philamon (tshwanier) for sitting on your car's hood and damaging it it will take about 6 police cars less than 60 seconds to come and arrest you - the racist - for attacking the f that damages your car.
When they were shooting at you in your own house they don't have members to react to the the call. F U, won't you say ? Someone I know got shot 4 x in his house. He lied bleeding there for 3 1/2 hours before the ambulance pitched up. Two weeks later the police were't there yet to investigate.

Newest here is a threat to ban all firearms - no one will then be able to defend himself against these armed (with firearms of course) gangs raiding properties.

[masalai]

I didnt feel in a position to make comment - so I didn't then, The post was more to highlight the stupidity of some expressions of frustration, and reverse racism as is implied in general despair often expressed by SA friends here who have "escaped" to Australia...

You & manie and others should join the move... http://www.thecoastalpassage.com/bblog.html is on building a Bob Oram C-44, click on the "lighthouse" for the home page of a Queensland electronic boating mag... All sorts of tradies are NEEDED by the booming mining industry in Australia... (Not the shovel & pick any more- huge machines, electrics and more...)

[masalai]

Got some pics of the "unusual"? behaviours... I agree, usually sails are cut "flat" for multis so if your "maker" was more attuned to mono work he may have put too much belly in it... The stall could be due to the lightness of your boat, - to tack, get up speed and turn sharply so you get around - before losing way (forward momentum) - and go a bit further then when sail is filled tighten up until you have maximum vmg (velocity made good to windward) - do not try to outpoint a mono, cats often do not like being "choked" (pointed too high into the wind) and go better if freed up a bit to get boat speed up... my other thought is that possibly the single sail is too big and 2 jibs may be better - but try that last... Learn the different sailing techniques for sailing cats first...

[safewalrus]

Fanie, Manie and Wynard as the man said get the fcuk out of that country, it ain't safe for humans there anymore! It's going the same way an other African states once the philomons get rid of the whites - they think they can run it - they can't! Can a stoneage man do calculus? Same difference - get out - for your families sake at least (and send them on ahead)

[charmc]

Newest here is a threat to ban all firearms - no one will then be able to defend himself against these armed (with firearms of course) gangs raiding properties.

That's what always amuses and frustrates me about the "ban all guns" types and their proposals for laws to ban guns, supposedly to cut the violent crime rate. Although the papers and TV news play them up like WW III, the actual number of shootings, accidental or in anger, by mostly law-abiding folks is very, very small. The problem is shootings related to robberies, drug deals gone bad, gangs, and hardened criminals. So we make a law banning guns ... OK, will someone please tell me what effect a new law will have on people who make a career of disobeying laws?? :confused:

I just saw a documentary on bank robberies. In one incident, two men robbed a bank, wearing body armor and carrying AK 47's with 20 magazines each. They killled 4 civilians and 2 cops, wounded 14 others, and held off more than 40 cops in all for two hours before being killed. They simply had more firepower and protection than the police. Everything they had is illegal for civilians under existing laws. Duh, they're criminals, violating laws is what they do!!

[charmc]

Back to topic ...

Fanie, multihulls are notorious for stalling mid-tack in light airs. My first time in a cat I perfected the "swim tack": dove overboard and towed the bows around to come about. Fortunately I was in the Bahamas so the water was warm, but I spent more time swimming than sailing until I got the hang of building up speed before trying to tack and steering far off the wind at first, then pointing up gradually. I suspect those rules are even more applicable with the "fanie rig". :D

[safewalrus]

To follow on from Charlies comments on banning guns. as you probably all know most guns are banned from public ownership of any kind in this country, even our Olympic treams have to go abroad to practice! FFS!! Going to be very interesting in 2012 when the Olympics come to London!!!

But how many abroad are aware that most weekends there are several killed by gun crime in the country. True they are mostly young and black (or one of the many shades thereof), but how can this be when the government has banned ALL handguns and most rifles/shotguns in various 'kneejerk' laws!

Only the criminals in this country now go armed - please guys if your country still has the right to carry and own arms for your sake (and that of your families) fight to keep it that way. IF YOU DON'T YOU'LL LIVE TO REGRET IT!!

the crazy thing is the sound of gunfire echos across this part of the country daily - we have one of the largest gun ranges just outside of town! Yet no civilian can use it, crazy!!

[Fanie]

It seems most gov's work back to front when it comes to some things. If they have a polution issue they won't ban cars, it's far easier to pick on the guys who smoke. Same with firearms. A friend of mine's brother was in a hostage situation one night, then they phoned we went there right away and the police was there just gefore us. They were fairly PO when I asked them if they checked if the philamon's were licensed to have guns. The poor idiot that tries to do everything right always gets screwed, while the crooks doesn't have to go through all the discomfortable procedures. Anyway, they escaped (as usual), lost a pistol during the get-away. Couple of days later one died of aids and another one of them shot his accomplice during an argument. Police finally got the rest of them after that. Anyway, sorry I brought it up. Sailing is much more pleasant.

[Fanie]

OK. Back to boating.

There is a huge difference between the 8m sail and the 12m sail (at least 4m eh Frosty :D Beat you to it, didn't I ?) You can feel by the force from the rope on the clew.

Now since this is the forerunner for my boxy fisher cat, which I designed to have a 50m sq sail :eek:, I'm looking for a volunteer to pull the sail in each time we tack :D Must have strong arms and eat fish :D

I didn't know that mono's should have a flatter cut in the sail... where can one get more info on this ? Be a bugger to have a 50m sail that works like an umbrella :rolleyes:

I suspect the rudder I have may be too small, so I'll remake it sometime. Something else I noticed is that when the wind is pushing a bit you have to really put some force on the rudder to keep the tri going where you want it to go - is this normal or is there something I overlooked ? Not having a daggerboard or keel I suspect would have an effect on this, right ?

Charlie, I envy your guts to swim the boat to line up in the right direction instead of tacking, however ! I don't think it is going to work so well with a 10m cat in our seas :D

[masalai]

Fanie, How are you going, do you get to contact Manie at all?

[Fanie]

Hello Masalai !

Thanks for asking - I'm doing ok - kinda - I'm just too buzy, too much to do and too little time. I'm still around, hopefully things would begin to look up in due time.

Manie was here some time ago, I was going to give him a call again but I suspect he sleeps by the time I can sit and call him - that is currently between 02h00 and 04h00 :D

I'm currently battling to get the laser cutter parts together, I have a lot of plastic parts to make from time to time and takes too long on the mill. When done I could save about 3 days at a time.

And you, are you behaving ? :D

[masalai]

As usual - - in the sh^^ or being mischievous.. been talking with Heinz about "global politics and economics" on that thread (I started)... http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=197653&posted=1#post197653
and here http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=197643 plus the usual dungeon threads with the occasional foray about where I have a little knowledge or understanding (I have as little as anyone - less than most):D:D:D as it would seem...

Stay safe, join Manie if you feel the need...