Small Boat in cold climates

[wmonastra]

Hi Guys,

Im planning a trip to the far reaches of north and south pole over the next 5 years. Im wanting to do it in a steel yacht under 30ft (yes you read that right.)Does anybody have any ideas on design/layout etc. At this stage im sailing solo and i want the boat in the water by next xmas. for a shakedown sail round NZ.
Im keen for your thoughts.(and not the silly ones about small boat sailing cause ive herard them all before, and i have been living on my 27ft yacht very happy for the last 3 years.)

Wayne:)

[Arvy]

Hi Wayne,

Nothing about a particular design, just some things that I would want for sure when going to those locations (not my cup of tea as I don't like cold at all). What I would certainly want is a strong build yacht with a thicker than normal bottom that can withstand driftice.

I wouldn't want much glass in the superstructure and I wouldn't want setboards (as driftsnow tends to blow through the smallest of openings). And the glass is really difficult to insulate properly for those low temperatures.

It is extremely important to have heating that can be lit like an oldfashioned oil heater with no electric parts whatsoever. And it should be big enough too!

Keep in mind that communication with the rest of the world is difficult (at least on the northern hemisphere, not sure about the southern).

I am not sure about if there are maps of the areas with depth information, but I would think a low draft would be nice too.

I am not sure if there is an english translation of the book by Henk de Velde who tried to take the passage on the north side above russia but I would recommend you to read it as it does contain some things to think of.

And most important of all, such a trip requires a lot more planning then an "average" ocean crossing ;) but I am sure you will take enough time to think everything through 5 times (or 10).

Are you going with a sailingyacht or a motoryacht?

[safewalrus]

Don't forget plenty of insulation - not this half inch of foam but good old 'Rockwool' minimum of two inches and wood lined (if you double skin it in ply nad tounge and groove it looks pretty and you can burn the T&G if the going gets tough!) Nice little solid fuel heater with a flat top that you can cook on - keep a kettle full of water on it at all times! Does wonders for the old moral, but I guess you know that already! Having said that don't forget a decdent bit of ventilation (don't need fans or anything just a couple of openings in the coach roof) you wouldn't want to die of CO2 poisoning would you!

[marshmat]

I have heard good things about Armaflex closed-cell insulation for high-latitude hulls. Glass of any sort is going to fog up like crazy and drip condensation on the interior unless it's insulated- it is now possible to get custom insulated glass units (two or three panes, thermally broken, argon filled) in just about any flat shape, I can see spec'ing a heavy tempered outer pane and using them on a boat.
Heat - you want to be able to work this with the batteries fried and the engine dead.
Layout, etc - apart from wanting a very good, ventilated deck-gear locker for your survival suit, and probably a vestibule of sorts in the companionway to help separate cold/wet from warm/dry, I see no reason why you wouldn't have the same freedom as with any other boat. Berths near the pitch/roll centre, of course, so you can actually get some rest.
An HRV (heat recovery ventilator) works wonders for interior ventilation in cold-climate housing. Might be worth looking into them for boats, if you could find one that doesn't rust out in ocean conditions, it would make the cabin a lot more comfortable and save on heating fuel.
Go way overboard on the scantlings. Remember that an ice floe might weigh several times more than your boat, and you are going to hit lots of them.
Minimal draught, for sure. The keel, if it has one, should be able to hit something (ie, an ice floe) underway, and either kick up or survive the impact.
S/Y Seal http://www.setsail.com/s_logs/laird/laird.html is somewhat bigger than what you're planning but is designed for the exact same type of service, and has proven her worth. Check that yacht out for ideas from the polar-cruising experts.

[ted655]

IF.... your boat has not been built yet, then pay attention to the grade of steel and the welding process that is used!
There is a different way to build when operating in cold water.
Get down in the steel construction part of this forum & try to contact some Canadian steel boat builders, or in addition to this forum, join "Metal Boat Society"
You gotta have different grade of steel to cruise with iceburgs!

[marshmat]

Good point about the steel, Ted.
The more brittle, higher-carbon steels do not fare so well in the Arctic. More ductile varieties, that will distort or stretch instead of cracking in the event of a catastrophic collision, seem to be preferred for ice use.
In Canada, for such a project, one would be looking for a welder who is intimately familiar with CSA standards W47 and W59. You may have equivalent standards down there; these are detailed technical standards describing exactly what constitutes acceptable welding under different use scenarios.

[Gilbert]

David Lewis had a steel boat that he used in Antarctica. I think it was somewhat bigger than 30 feet. I remember reading about it in the National Geographic maybe 25 years ago. Perhaps he wrote a book about it???

[masalai]

google "ice-cat" or Robin Chamberlin, he and a friend went to the southern ice shelf in a glass cat of his design a couple of years back.

[alan white]

You might consider reading the book, "North into the Night". About a couple who allowed themselves to be frozen in through an arctic winter. Small steel sailboat a bit over thirty feet. Gripping story.

Alan

[safewalrus]

Came back to mention the need for oversized scantlings but note that Marshmat has already covered that, I can but endorse his wise words, remember that if your steel boat is built to 'normal' small boat practices at that size you won't have much in the way of scantlings!

[ted655]

If I remember, there is a particular shape of hull that "rides up" and is more crush resistant in case of ice entrapment..
Much to learn to do this safely.

[erik818]

Wayne,
I admit to staying away from open water in wintertime when I can, and haven't been in the arctic sea. I guess you'll be trying to time your trips to the arctic/antartic summers, but summers at high lattitudes can resemble winters elsewhere if you are unlucky with the weather.

Some years ago I had to take a look at the special environmental requirements that the Swedish Navy had compared to the army. My conclusion was that you won't experience really low temperatures at sea; open water is not compatible with really low temperatures for any stretch of time. If you just can stay dry you should be OK. (Maybe easier said than done). To keep dry you need some heating in the (insulated) cabin to avoid condensation. It doesn't have to be comfortably warm inside, but it must be less cold than the outside. From what I understood, the navy also use de-humidifiers in some compartments.

The navy asked for "clean" and robust outside surfaces that would withstand removal of ice with an axe. They did not want delicate protruding parts. I think you should consider how to de-ice your boat. If you don't remove the ice (in extreme cases by taking down the rig) you will get top-heavy and capsize.

As I said, I've never been in the arctic sea, but the idea is thrilling. I would choose a motor sailer with a long and shallow keel. It should have an inboard diesel that can propel the boat with good fuel economy at a knot or so below hull speed when wind is not favourable for sailing. I would use diesel for heating because diesel will be simpler and more weight efficient than coal, wood, propane or anything else.

Take my opinions for what they are worth. I'm no naval expert, just an engineer in a cold country who once had to consider naval requirements.

Erik

[Hans Friedel]

Here is a relatively small steel boat that has made some coldwater trips

http://www.searcher.norweb.se/

Made out of Swedish Steel of corse :)

Hans

[Ausiwik]

Hi Wayne
if your living in Littelton Harbour Youve already experianced cold I recon . Anyhow look up a boat called "Fine tolerance" It may appear under Bruce Roberts .
The couple live here in Queensland and took there steel Roberts Marisus through the North West passage (after the Melbourne Osaka Race)
They did a lot of hard yards on there journey They wrote a lot about it and it gives a terrific in site into that kind of endeavor.
You may be able to contact them They live in Bunderberg Qld Aus now

I took my own 42ft aluminium cutter "Foreigner" from here to Alaska SE (Glacier bay ) a couple of times and and that was an experiance It sort of rained inside over the bunks but we loved it and are planning again
Good luck with your plans
Steve M

[wmonastra]

Hi Everybody

I ahve been reading some of the things you have been saying and im going to take bits of what was said to help build the boat that i think will be most suitable for the trip im plaaning. thank you for your feedback and please keep it coming as im eager to learn more.

[Guillermo]

Another aspect to take into consideration is the need of checking stability against the accretion of ice on boat and rig.

As an example, here the exigencies for fishing vessels under The Code of Safe Working Practice for 15 m (LOA) to less than 24 m (L) Fishing Vessels

"The icing-up allowance which represents the added weight due to ice accretion on the exposed surfaces of the hull, superstructure, deck, deckhouses and companionways should be calculated as follows:

(i) full icing allowance:
all exposed horizontal surfaces (decks, house tops, etc.) should be assumed to carry an ice weight of 30 kilogrammes per square metre.
The projected lateral area of the vessel above the waterline (a silhouette) should be assumed to carry an ice weight of 15 kilogrammes per square metre. The height of the centre of gravity should be calculated according to the heights of the respective areas and in the case of the projected lateral area the effect of sundry booms, rails, wires, etc., which will not have been included in the area calculated should be taken into account by increasing by 5% the weight due to the lateral area and the moment of this weight by 10%.
This allowance should apply in winter (1st November to 30th April inclusive in the northern hemisphere) to vessels which operate in the following areas:
(a) the area north of latitude 66º30’N. between longitude 10ºW. and the Norwegian Coast;
(b) the area north of latitude 63ºN. between longitude 28ºW. and 10ºW.;
(c) the area north of latitude 45ºN. between the North American continent and longitude 28ºW.;
(d) all sea areas north of the European, Asian and North American continents east and west of the areas defined in (a), (b) and (c) above;
(e) Bering and Okhotsk seas and Tatar Strait;
(f) South of latitude 60ºS.

(ii) Half of the full icing allowance:
this should be taken as one half of that calculated under sub-paragraph (i) of this paragraph and should apply in winter to vessels which operate in all areas north of latitude 61ºN. between longitude 28ºW. and the Norwegian Coast and south of the areas defined as the lower limit for the full icing allowance between longitude 28ºW. and the Norwegian Coast."


Cheers.

[Guillermo]

I'd say you should consider also to comply with some criteria for stability after damage, such as the one in the Code of Practice for Small Sailing Vessels:

"4.4.1.2 In the damaged condition, the residual stability should be such that the angle of equilibrium does not exceed 7 degrees from the upright, the resulting righting lever curve has a range to the downflooding angle of at least 15 degrees beyond the angle of equilibrium, the maximum righting lever within that range is not less than 100mm and the area under the curve is not less than 0.015 metre radians."

Cheers.

P.S.
You should check with your national authorities, to find out if they allow you at all to build up and sail the Poles in a 30' footer. I don't know what the rules and regulations are over there, but if they are similar to UK's MCA ones or the like, I have doubts a boat that size would qualify.

[enjoysurvival]

Hi,

Not splinking cold water on your face. You have to think about "enjoy survial kits (ESK)"

You should have all the ultra extra necessary supplies besides electrionic devices.
Think how to gurantee all stuff go with you if , in any case....it happens.

I am renovating the concept of survival at sea. Most cases , once happens , they have only biscuits , rations .... . Why not a big meal in the primitive device ( life raft ) ? You should have a 4 person raft for one man , water proof low resolution camera ( are you to record all the next 5 years ?)

Bring also spear gun and solar charger for mp3 and computer.
Some may think using a computer in a life raft is crasy , but , why so disastrous in disater ?

I am also designing a food and supplies container that they float themselves and easily located ,found in extreme conditions. ( Still have techincal issues ).

I envy you have the plan to do what you want.

Will you consider very warm and breathable clothing ? I am designing a core-tex suit like swim suit but breathable and water proof , double layer ( but the breathability of the material I got is not as comfortable as core-tex that I could not obtain.)

Make sure you have enough and appropriate clothing.

[enjoysurvival]

Hi,

Just curious,

Will you have to tendency to land on an unknown island during the trip?

[wmonastra]

HI There

im keen to learn more about your survival gear, what are you thinking of doing in the way of dry suits?? im also keen to look at trying gear that you make on my trail runs before i actully head off.i will only have the bare basics of electrics,running lights, i will be using a hurricane lamp inside for lighting and assistance in heating. I will use my mountaineering handheld gps, (its both water proof and shock proof and runs on 3 penlight batts for up to 3 weeks per set of batts.)I will also have my laptop and mp3 player for diary, music and photos etc, i will take all my ice climbing gear and other winter toys, (ive been climbing for years and have alot of winterised gear which im trying to adapt to the trip, as its both water and shock proof) the idea is to go and find small islands and camp out and explore them do some sking and climbing etc, sail around and have a look and learn more about the area.

In NZ we have a steel yacht made by a designer called Ganley. They come in all sizes and ive been told that they are strong and great offshore. Can anybody back that up or maybe owns one that can tell me more about them please. I will be living on it full time so that side of it will also have to be taken into account.

Looking forward to the responses.:)

[DanishBagger]

If drysuits, layer up. It's like wearing a plastic bag. I prefer to use icebreaker underneath my drysuit when I sail here in winter, because it's merino wool (isolates when wet, and you don't smell as bad as fast as you will with man made fibres), but the brand is unimportant, of course.

Yesterday I decided to buy me a float coat – but if I were going to Svalbard or further north I would be giving myself a float suit, and if at all possible a survival suit (but those things are even more expensive).

Your plan sounds really nice. I hope you will keep a trip log and take some nice pictures while underway? I'd love to read about it, when you get that far.

Steel is supposed to be great, but at your size (that would include "my" size when I get around to go really, really north), the material really doesn't seem that important, construction much more so.

[wmonastra]

I was just reading another sailing forum and read that kevler cover glass or ply is stronger than steel and alot lighter??and would be far better for the ice.

Can anybody confirm or deny this form of building??? I mean if its true then i may as well just cover my glass 30ft yacht now and move my trip forward as my boat is more than suitable for heading offshore. i only wanted steel in the ice as i thought it be alot safer. it looks like i may be wrong???
your thoughts.

[DanishBagger]

I'm not a naval architect, you have to know that, but I am quite sure one cannot make the blanket statement that kevlar over ply is stronger than steel. The fact of the matter is, that I can build a boat with kevlar over ply that will sink the moment it hits something (because the hull itself isn't strong enough behuind that ply, or the ply isn't strong enough, or something else to that end), and other the other hand, one can build a wooden boat that will be much stronger than a random steel boat. I would never choose a boat on material alone, although I do have some preferences. But to me, the material itself is only part of the equation. Not the end-all choice.

I like stripplanked boats and (unpainted) aluminium – those are my preferences, if I really have to choose.

Also, I would be wary of covering a boat of glassfibre with kevlar, simply because of the extreme cold you will see, because that means you will have the stove roaring. I'd be worried about the difference between the heat and the cold making glass fibre burst the much stiffer kevlar. Kevlar is stiff, ad really not forgiving, and the "thermostat"-effect (my own word, hope it makes sense) might result in long term damage (two different materials where one expands more than the other because of heat).

[DanishBagger]

Btw, at one time I considered covering my strip plank one with mylar, thinking that mylar is much more flexing than kevlar, and although it wouldn't make the hull stiffer, I figured it would be better at controlling the hole, should it happen. As it turned out, I never did, because mylar is bitch to work with. Well, it was too me – I wasn't able to handle it as I should.