A question regarding skippers licenses [Archive]

eitanwaks

11-19-2007, 05:16 PM

Hi,
first I better introduce myself. I'm a 26-year-old student of mechanical engineering in Israel. I have always fancied traveling aboard a yacht, and maybe even owning one when I can financially. About six years ago, I was involved in an accident which left me paralyzed from the chest down. To be more specific I am a C 4/5 quadriplegic. I can move my arms but cannot function my fingers.
Now that you know my physical disabilities I can ask the question.
Can I pass a skippers license? I know that I have no problem learning the material, and that I am capable of understanding and giving instructions to an assistant.

I'm asking this because tomorrow I have an appointment with a sailing school. I would like to give them as many examples as I can. The school itself are very enthusiastic and would like to help me as best they can. I feel that I might encounter some bureaucratic problems with the Department of Transportation here in Israel. In order to come better prepared to a future appointment with them I would like to give them as many examples as I can from other countries.

For those of you asking why I want a skippers license, and not just sail with someone else, it has a lot to do with self-fulfillment. I would also like to purchase a yacht sometime in the future and travel around the world for a about a year or two (maybe even more).

Even if I can not get a physical license I will take the courses in order to learn more about sailing. Something about the freedom of sailing is addictive.

Thanks for your help,
Eitan Waks

safewalrus

11-19-2007, 05:24 PM

Eitan in the first place welcome to the forum, secondly and primarily here in England you would have no problem! It's the crew that does the work anyway (or it should be!) we actually have vessels modified to enable handicaped people learn to sail - both big and small, and yes they handicaped DO take part in the activities. Off hand I can't say more than that but if you use any search engine and look up handicapped sailing in the UK you'll get lots of information, more than I could give you! We even have courses for the blind (skippers courses at that!) Best of luck with your courses and your license when you finally take it - but you don't need luck because I know (as do you) that when your ready you will pass with flying colours!!

eitanwaks

11-19-2007, 05:34 PM

Thanks for the quick reply. I have looked at many of the web sites. They all provide a great deal of inspiration. The thing is, I couldn't find any information regarding a skipper's license for handicapped people. All the web sites deal with the rehabilitation aspect, or the sports aspect. These are two good things however, I was wondering whether the handicapped actually get the license or whether they participate in the activity, recreationally or competitively, without a license.

Without a license I don't believe it is possible to charter a boat in many countries, including my own (Israel).

Thank you for your kind words,
Eitan Waks

safewalrus

11-19-2007, 05:44 PM

Remember Eitan skippering is not just about brawn, theres a lot of brain needed to - navigation, radio, electronics etc. so why not have a handicapped skipper, he does the thinking and handles the wheel during manouvers, leaves the able bodied to do the jumping around and hauling on ropes (actually when you think about it it makes sense!)

eitanwaks

11-19-2007, 05:55 PM

Your points you make my points exactly. These are the arguments I am coming with to the Department of Transportation. The reason I am pessimistic from the get-go is at a friend of mine tried to get a license for a speedboat and encountered quite a bit of resistance.

Because the skipper's license is an international license, if I could show some prior cases, similar to mine, it could help my case with the Department of Transportation (assuming all doesn't go well).

Anyway, thank you for all of your help. It's almost 1 o'clock in the morning so I'm going to sleep now. I will let you know what happened in the meeting tomorrow. Hopefully the good news.

Eitan Waks

charmc

11-19-2007, 06:39 PM

Eitan,

Welcome aboard! Congratulations on your great attitude and desire to pursue your dream!

This article might give you some ideas and encouragement: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DE5DA1E3BF93BA2575AC0A96F948260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

Contact info:
NATIONAL OCEAN ACCESS PROJECT (NOAP)
33141 Farragut Station
Washington, DC 20003
301/217-9736

License requirements vary in different parts of the world. In the US and the US Virgin Islands in the Caribbean, for example, there is no license requirement to charter a boat. The charter company asks for a statement of experience, does an evaluation during the familiarization run, and sends you off if they feel you and your crew know what you're doing. Some have a certificate you can get that is recognized by other companies, so you don't have to "re-prove" your knowledge each time you charter. Here is an exerpt from one charter company's literature:
"Qualifications
In order to qualify to skipper a bareboat charter, the operator must meet the following criteria:

Recent practical experience skippering aboard a similar size and type of vessel.
Experience in tidal waters.

On charter day you will receive a Check-Out of the yacht including a systems orientation and a chart review of your cruising area. Observation of your boat handling skills to confirm the skipper's ability to maneuver the vessel may also be required. It is not intended to teach boat handling skills.

If you would like additional training, AYC offers programs to sharpen your skills and/or completely train you and your crew for your cruising vacation.

Pre-Qualification
Under certain circumstances, AYC may request you arrange for private, prequalification time prior to your scheduled charter. Typically this is done when a charterer would benefit from "hands-on" time aboard the boat chosen for charter. Based on the Experience Resume, the skipper should only need a limited time aboard the boat to prepare for a safe cruise. Prequalification time is scheduled in the spring for an additional fee and usually takes 1-3 hours of time. We encourage the "crew" to join the skipper so that our staff can include reminders to those responsible to assist the skipper when arriving and departing moorages."

Final word: If you're turned down, keep learning, and when you've got a new source or a new approach, go back. If you're turned down again, repeat the process and go back. Keep repeating until they give in, if only to get rid of that stubborn bastard who keeps coming back over and over! You might remind them that your country was scheduled to be wiped out nearly 60 years ago, and several times since. You just want to do what the whole country does every day: prove the neighbors wrong!

Best wishes to you, Eitan, go for it!

lazeyjack

11-19-2007, 06:56 PM

yes welcome, there are cases of people sailing ALONE AROUND WORLD , IN A WHEELCHAIR, i DONT MEAN THE CHAIR HAS SAILS. BUT YOU GET MY DRIFT, THERE are aslo some blind skippers, so cheers
My son has a close friend, same age 17, been all like quad, only weighs 16 kg, great spirit

Kay9

11-19-2007, 11:18 PM

If its a US Coast Guard master licenses your after no. You will not qualify.

Here is a link to the US Coast Guard quals http://www.captainbryan.com/images/uscg719k.pdf

safewalrus

11-20-2007, 05:01 PM

lazeyjack

11-21-2007, 02:15 AM

Didn't realise the mighty USCG actually holds sway in Israel! They tend to do thier own thing in most other areas! Funnily enough from what I've seen of the USCG they aren't the arbiters of good seamanship you make them out to be - life is!! (mind you as good seamen they'd be the first to tell you - I hope [one good thing about the USCG - it was formed whilst the US was still British, so naturally they ARE the best service you have!!])

to my way of understanding , you save up 100 coke bottlke tops and you get a USA 100 licence.
Where as the Brit YACHTMASTER, is very tough , involves going my night using only dr, and compass, , candidate sits below and relay courses to helm, at end of certain amount of hours. with comstant course changes you supposed to know where you are
most fail

safewalrus

11-21-2007, 06:05 AM

Blind pilotage - great fun if rather specialised! And it's not just DR and compass, you need to understand (and apply) tides, currants and weather information and every other bit of info you have,including leeway and what the crew had for breakfast!

Kay9

11-21-2007, 06:17 AM

He didnt say where he wanted a licenses.

I will put my licenses against your any day.

safewalrus

11-21-2007, 06:20 AM

And you have? from where?:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Kay9

11-21-2007, 06:24 AM

1600 T Masters oceans, towing, gmdss, radar USCG,

safewalrus

11-21-2007, 07:21 AM

K9 I take it the "T Masters" is TUG master?

Try Masters (foreign going), GMDSS general, Radiotelephone (restricted) Ship Captains Medical training, various radar and electronic nav, and thats just the civilian (all British of course) - Yep your good, but not that good!

Kay9

11-21-2007, 04:21 PM

No Master is master of steam and motor vessels up to 1600 tons. The towing endorsements means I have also spent 2 years on a vessel as a mate towing. The "oceans" endorsements means I can sail worldwide.

In the US we seperate the licenses by the Tonnage of the vessels you have serverd on unlike you guys. This way if a guy has a captains licenses and has only been on 100 ton tugs he cant suddenly get the job as captain of a 1600ton tanker without having practical knowledge. But since you seem to know all about our licnese I would have thought you knew this allready.

Im not real sure just exactly what I said on this thread, to warrent the attack you Lazyjack and sent down on me but you can both take all your attitude of superiority get on a boat and sail off into the contercloackwise simicircle of the nearest Hurricane.

safewalrus

11-21-2007, 04:58 PM

Actually it was your air of superiority that got up a few noses! And seeing as how we're all so clever about each others 'tickets' you'd know that under STCW they are all going the same way more or less, and have been since the turn of the century, which kinda means that since I've been ashore for some time mine is now out of date. But amazingly the question was about sailing tickets not commercial steam or motor! So what you have hardly matters does it? Unless its a sailing ticket? There again I have and do, and the Brits (at the moment) don't actually need tickets for private vessels used purely for pleasure and below a certain size(stupid I know but I don't make the law)

marshmat

11-21-2007, 06:17 PM

the Brits (at the moment) don't actually need tickets for private vessels used purely for pleasure and below a certain size
Canadians do... (well, most of us- all, in a couple more years) at least if we want to take the helm of anything with a motor. (Pleasure Craft Operator - 20 tonnes max, valid for a lifetime). There was a bit of an uproar at first, the whole "freedom of the seas" thing. Then the test came out. Questions are along the lines of "You are heading upstream, you see a red buoy, which side of it do you stay on?" Or, "Which lights would a 6 m powerboat show at night?" It weeded the ****** out very quickly, and anyone who knew what they were doing had little trouble.

Point of grammar (the local Americans likely won't care, but those who respect the integrity of the language just might) - "License" with an "s" is a verb ("the Coast Guard will license you to handle a vessel"), "Licence" with a "c" is a noun ("Dave is getting his captain's licence").

waikikin

11-21-2007, 06:45 PM

Eitan, seems like everyones putting their ticket resume up, so I will too- I've got the most junior ticket in Oz, a coxswains ticket 12m rule length & 250kw- took some getting, in time + time at Tafe(Tech school) & got Inshore instructors endorsment from Yachting Australia wich was tougher to get than the real one! Having done them there was fire training & sea safety courses that another student with one leg did but had a tough time with, of coarse we gave him some help & last I heard he was running part of sailability & had previosly competed in BT global Challenge. Main thing is not to give up, you'll get it somehow. All the best from Jeff.

charmc

11-21-2007, 09:28 PM

Point of grammar (the local Americans likely won't care, but those who respect the integrity of the language just might) - "License" with an "s" is a verb ("the Coast Guard will license you to handle a vessel"), "Licence" with a "c" is a noun ("Dave is getting his captain's licence").

Matt,

Sorry, but license is both a noun and a verb in the hallowed English and American languages. Licence is both the correct spelling of the noun in French (might be some influence there, eh?) and an optional but secondary spelling in English , obviously allowed for Scots, Canadians, and others who attempt to speak the English language but aren't very good at it. :D :D

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

License \Li"cense\ (l[imac]"sens), n. [Written also licence.]
[F. licence, L. licentia, fr. licere to be permitted, prob.
orig., to be left free to one; akin to linquere to leave. See
Loan, and cf. Illicit, Leisure.]
1. Authority or liberty given to do or forbear any act;
especially, a formal permission from the proper
authorities to perform certain acts or to carry on a
certain business, which without such permission would be
illegal; a grant of permission; as, a license to preach,
to practice medicine, to sell gunpowder or intoxicating
liquors.

To have a license and a leave at London to dwell.
--P. Plowman.

2. The document granting such permission. --Addison.

3. Excess of liberty; freedom abused, or used in contempt of
law or decorum; disregard of law or propriety.

License they mean when they cry liberty. --Milton.

4. That deviation from strict fact, form, or rule, in which
an artist or writer indulges, assuming that it will be
permitted for the sake of the advantage or effect gained;
as, poetic license; grammatical license, etc.

Syn: Leave; liberty; permission.

masalai

11-21-2007, 09:29 PM

Safie,
Bless your little seafaring heart, may your seas be slight and your port be enjoyable.

Fire 1...........

artemis

11-21-2007, 11:42 PM

Canadians do... (well, most of us- all, in a couple more years) at least if we want to take the helm of anything with a motor. (Pleasure Craft Operator - 20 tonnes max, valid for a lifetime). There was a bit of an uproar at first, the whole "freedom of the seas" thing. Then the test came out. Questions are along the lines of "You are heading upstream, you see a red buoy, which side of it do you stay on?" Or, "Which lights would a 6 m powerboat show at night?" It weeded the ****** out very quickly, and anyone who knew what they were doing had little trouble...

In the USA the individual States have the authority (via the US Coast Guard) to create rules and regulations for licensing - which are uniform. Most States are now in the process of implementing, or have implemented, some sort of operator's license which requires training and an exam (usually the USCG Auxilliary Safe Boating course) for motorized vessels. Oregon did this a few years back and the final phasing in will be completed next year. If you operate a motorized vessel and don't have a license the local law enforcement agency will issue you a citation, may arrest you, and will probably impound your boat. And if your pleasure boaters are as "squirrely" as those in the USA, you'd need the same restrictions. :idea:

Love seeing those idiots drinking a can of beer while steering their 35', 60mph "plastic *******its" through a bunch of swimmers, get pulled over by the county sheriff and hauled off to jail. Finally. Good thing walrus and bergy don't like the USA - they'd try to operate a boat and spend the reest of their time in the local jail ('course they're used to that - makes 'em feel at home, it does).

safewalrus

11-22-2007, 05:16 PM

Everybody like to control you don't they?

and Arty last time I was in the US it was on a boat (big one 22000 tons) - several months in and out , worked with the police a bit to! ON THEIR side!:eek: The only time I went into the local jail was to DELIVER a prisoner :p or complete paperwork!:mad:

artemis

11-22-2007, 05:45 PM

... The only time I went into the local jail was to DELIVER a prisoner :p or complete paperwork!:mad:

My idol, the seafaring hero I admired and looked up - gone! There's nothing left to hold onto anymore. I'd go drown myself, but would probably get a ticket for polluting the waterways.

Fanie

11-22-2007, 06:09 PM

The only time I went into the local jail was to DELIVER a prisoner or complete paperwork!
I was in jail for 2 days for paying R800 too much maintenance. Typical SA mentality - the guy who tries to do the right thing gets screwed.

I have to get some kind of skippers licence as well. A check on the internet seems it's a week long thing and cost a LOT of money. Con't you just write the test and get it over with ?

marshmat

11-22-2007, 06:40 PM

Webster's is an American dictionary, Charlie.
Spelling differences aside, I do think the Canadian approach to small-craft operator permits is a good one. It's inexpensive, effective, and easily enforced. Those who know how to be safe, pass with flying colours. Those who can't tell a fire extinguisher from a flare gun (or a boat from a buoy), become easy to catch.

Ike

11-22-2007, 09:35 PM

Sorry Walrus, the USCG was founded in 1790, after the revolution. Back then it was called the Revenue Cutter Service and fought the British in what we call the War of 1812.

But then I agree it is the best service. Of course, after 34 years I couldn't decide if I wanted to make it a career or not. LOL

safewalrus

11-23-2007, 02:05 PM

Ike thanks for shatering my dreams buddy - actually I was given that little gem by a fairly senior (rating wise) member of the United States Coast Guard, now was he full of crap, ********ting a limey or just plain stupid? Doubt if it was the latter you don't get to be a Chief in the USCG by being stoopid, so what was it?

safewalrus

11-23-2007, 02:23 PM

My idol, the seafaring hero I admired and looked up - gone! There's nothing left to hold onto anymore. I'd go drown myself, but would probably get a ticket for polluting the waterways.

Let you into a little secret Arty; there;s more rogues IN a PD than outside it, just do it differently is all!

artemis

11-23-2007, 02:36 PM

Let you into a little secret Arty; there;s more rogues IN a PD than outside it, just do it differently is all!

Gosh! I thought that was only here in the USA! :D

safewalrus

11-23-2007, 05:02 PM

Unfortunately it's world wide! Like the fact that in the UK 60% of retail theft is by the Security Officers (so just WHY do they have security? don't ask me!)

and that's just one little corner!

Ike

11-23-2007, 11:46 PM

Well Walrus, I would hardly presume to contradict a CPO. Especially since I never made Chief. I was just a lowly Lieutenant. Perhaps he was considering some of the lighthouses that were operated by the colonies as precursors to the lighthouse service, although the federal government didn't start managing and maintaining them until 1789. Of course the spirit and purpose goes back a lot farther than 1790. Saving lies at sea has always been a noble calling.

Now if we could get the Coast Guard out of the Department Homeland Security and make it an independent agency, that would be an accomplishment!

safewalrus

11-24-2007, 02:44 PM

And Ike as we all know Officers are only there to sign for things, until they reach a reasonable height! (five feet nine ought to do it!) The Backbone of all Naval Officer Corps is the lowly Lieutenant - it's how long and how you got there that matters! I've met good lieutenants and I've met bad lieutenants - the fact that you admit it probably makes you one of the former - not bad for a septic (at least you were in the better of the US Seagoing Services Your coast guard beats ours hands down even if our Navy is only about the size of a Coast Guard these days!)

As for your hope of getting the Coast Guard to become the controller of it's own fate? there's more chance of Bush learning the Queens English!! Nice thought though!;)

Ike

11-24-2007, 06:23 PM

I came up through the hawse pipe if you know what that means. I started out as enlisted eventually went to Officer Candidate School. That's what in the USCG and USN is called a Mustang.

Can you say nuclear? Or is it nucular? I'm so confused.

masalai

11-24-2007, 06:32 PM

nuclear, also Aluminium, let nipples be seen through clothes, Even blocking off Janet Jacksons tits is soooo prudish it verges on telling lies. Saying "swearwords instead of the stupid "beep" Australian National radio does book reading and if the text says "****" the reader says "****". a toilet is either a toilet, ****-house or bog-parlor but only poofters seek a "powder-room".

Speaking of which - Oops not the Drivel Thread - will save it for later!

marshmat

11-25-2007, 08:07 AM

As for your hope of getting the Coast Guard to become the controller of it's own fate? there's more chance of Bush learning the Queens English!! Nice thought though! Project Deepwater comes to mind, for some reason.
Nuclear is the one, unless you're the President of the US of A, in which case it becomes nook-you-larr.
I love that Australian honesty we see from the Down Under types on here. We Canucks are getting so uptight lately, partly from the way the work culture has developed and partly from the way the government's been going lately. But that would get us away from the topic.
What was the topic again?
Right, skippers' licences and the Coast Guard.
Our government's been talking lately about adding a few ships to the fleet. Whether they go to the Navy or CG or both, is not yet entirely sure. But in a few years we should be launching some new fully Arctic-rated cutters and icebreakers to clear the way to Canada's emerging northern ports. (There's a deep-water port going in somewhere in Nunavut, too, we've been told.) Most are hoping the Coast Guard gets them; our Coasties (as far as I know) remain a largely independent, civilian agency and not part of the military (we don't have very much of the military/industrial complex that powers the US forces).
Drifting off topic again.
I think most of you outrank me with the tickets, permits, etc; so far I'm only qualified for recreational craft to 20 tonnes. That will change, eventually; I do intend to get a few more as I can afford additional boats (although I doubt I'll reach Ike's level)....

safewalrus

11-25-2007, 01:31 PM

Ike buddy I'm impressed! You say you didn't make Chief, I think you made better than Chief on that route!

Crawled much the same route myself but I cheated, 10 years Royal Navy, left and joined the Merchant Navy as a Deck Rating and finally made Chief Officer, got offered a "drivers job" but by then the novelty was wearing off and the difference in rewards between Master and Mate were so small considering the extra hassle that I didn't bother (probably a silly move but I swollowed the anchor commercialwise soon after so it didn't matter as much as if I'd stayed I guess!)

Ike

11-25-2007, 04:09 PM

Don't get me started on Deepwater! What a Fiasco.
Don't even mention the current hoo hah over the Administrative Law Judges. Talk about just plain stupid.

I am glad I retired when I did. However it is painful to see all this going on.

Wow, you turned down Master. Is that a first?

I did all right, all things considered. It would have been nice to make CPO. But it wasn't in the cards. My specialty (fire control technician) had maybe 60 people in the entire rating. There were about 12 or 14 CPOs. One of them had to retire or die to get promoted, so I went the OCS route. If I hadn't done that I would have gone for Warrant Officer. My rating doesn't exist anymore in the Coast Guard. They combined all the electronics ratings into one, IT, which I am not sure what that stands for. But all the Electronics Techs, Sonar Techs and Fire Control Techs are now IT's. It gives them a better shot at promotion, but nobody specializes anymore.

After I got my commission I did mostly engineer work in Boating Safety. It's a lot more fun playing around with boats than with guns. (oh, I like guns too.) I got to run an industrial facility for a while. Building and fixing stuff is a lot of fun too. But they guys that get promoted are the ones who sail the ships and fly the planes. But I had enough time to retire. So that's good. Fact is I am staying at an RV park on an Air Force base right now. One of the really great perks. Its nice to have your own gated community that has guards with machine guns. Makes one feel secure. LOL.

charmc

11-26-2007, 02:12 AM

Webster's is an American dictionary, Charlie.

Matt,

Oxford University Press uses both spellings for the noun. Interesting that they can't make up their collective British minds. :)

charmc

11-26-2007, 02:28 AM

Spelling differences aside, I do think the Canadian approach to small-craft operator permits is a good one. It's inexpensive, effective, and easily enforced. Those who know how to be safe, pass with flying colours. Those who can't tell a fire extinguisher from a flare gun (or a boat from a buoy), become easy to catch.

Matt,

I was one of the "freedom of the seas" advocates. I no longer oppose lincensing requirements, just try to influence them so they actually do some good. The Canadian requirements you described sound reasonable. I agree that competent operators should have no trouble passing. We certainly have way too many imbeciles operating boats down here. :mad:

artemis

11-26-2007, 01:14 PM

Matt,

I was one of the "freedom of the seas" advocates. I no longer oppose lincensing requirements, just try to influence them so they actually do some good. The Canadian requirements you described sound reasonable. I agree that competent operators should have no trouble passing. We certainly have way too many imbeciles operating boats down here. :mad:

It was this simplicity, wide availability, and low cost to state government (surprise!) that led the State of Oregon to follow several others States' lead in a licensing exam: Take the US Coast Guard Auxilliary safe boating course and pass it - and if you're land bound (like in central Oregon) you can still do it by mail. Certificate from the USCGA that you passed the course is all you need (plus some bucks) to get the license.