Sci-Fi boats anyone? [Archive] - Boat Design Forums

Sus

10-30-2007, 07:37 PM

Ah, a friendly ..er pirate ... walrus, why hello thar!

thanks, i appreciate the reply. ok lets get started here then

i dont mind criticism but remember this is going to be speculative. That said, it isn't fantasy, if it was - i'd draw up anything that just looked cool and run with it. what satisfies me is the criteria, that it seems plausible and that I understand it well enough to justify my claims.

my first project I'm tentatively calling Proteus Built around 2065

Proteus is a military prototype, a small test platform for a variety of systems (no weapons systems though - its a transport), I put it at maybe 60 feet, much of which is crammed with systems, making the interior something like what you'd get on a 40 footer.

It will need to be capable of braving Drake Passage in the worst of conditions, to that end it can operate as a submersible and has an airlock. It's not a deep diver, but it can go deep enough under wave action to keep it safe, even so its materials are light enough that its not significantly heavier than a modern powerboat. It also has the capacity to hydroplane on retractable planes. It's powerplant, autopilot and durability are all interesting features. I'm not all that sure about powerplants, though I've done some research on the matter there seems to be several options the value of which I don't understand. I imagine it would not employ a propellor, but (dunno what you call it, where the water enters the body of the boat to be accelerated) jets.

I have considered including in this list a sailing feature but there are a couple problems. weight, control system, hull shape, how to compact the mast, etc.

Power systems include a large battery reserve and a few methods of generating electricity, solar probably, I think a wind generator is somewhat feasible, possible a wave action generator though none of these currently produce much energy these are emergency systems.

lol, now imagine the cockpit on that puppy! i imagine it would resemble an airplane.

Some of the issues that I'd like to work on.

- hull shape to suit surface and sub-surface, particularly the front, I'm thinking a box boat (if im right calling it that? where the front is a vertically standing wedge shape) could work since the front end doesn't lift its nose and since you can always hydroplane for speed.

- im not sure how deep you'd need to be able to run, Drake sounds pretty damn scary, maybe rate it at 100m?

- propulsion should be pretty special, anyone got any ideas? I'm thinking maybe purely electric depending on advances in batteries and power ratios. It ought to run clean and be reasonably cheap to operate and maintain. (maybe youre thinking my hypothetical military wouldn't care about such things but lets just say times change.)

ok maybe thats enough to get started, I'll look through my sketchbooks and see what I can scan in to show you my early designs. mind you, I don't do 3d work, nor do I have the equipment for it.

Petros

10-30-2007, 09:25 PM

Excuse me, your project sounds interesting but I think you are going about this in the wrong way, that is if you want this vehicle to sound realistic and plausible. That far in the future you are almost taking about science fiction (consider the the type of aircraft, subsurface and surface vessels, and lack of space craft in use sixty years ago compared to today). That will make conventionalizing a future vessel that much more difficult.

I am an engineer and some years ago I worked for a defense contractor that was developing advanced military vehicles. What you need to do FIRST is define the mission you want this craft to do. It is impossible to make a vehicle of any type that does all things well, so you have to pick the operational limits for which you want to do and design around that certain type of mission. Compounding this of course is trying to determine what type of threats this future military might be facing (again consider who we had as a threat 30 years ago, 60 years ago, etc. as compared to today and you get an idea how difficult that alone might be). The military almost never purchases a "general use" vehicle, they are designed around a particular threat or mission. The military almost never buys special vassals that small except perhaps for "special ops". Most of the newer proposals also incorporate some kind of "stealth" capability (low radar signature). They will look something like the F-117A aircraft without wings and it floats.

The size, features, capabilities, armament, equipment, etc. will all be determined by the mission you need it to accomplish. My suggestion to you is figure out what a future enemy might look like/behave like, what kind of mission you need to do against this enemy and then define the operating parameters to fill that mission. This will make the task of designing the ship not only more focused, but also more realistic. Rather than throwing together a lot of neat ideas and then figure out what you would do with such a vessel. This way you will not end up with a "scizoid" design.

This by the way is not an uncommon problem with many inexperienced designers of not just boats, but homebuilt aircraft, RVs and many other similar projects.

Outline what it is you want this vessel to do: how long will it be deployed, what kind of information or materials will it gather, how hostile the operating environment, what kind of specialists will need to be on-board, etc. And then we can better design a vessel around the primary mission you want to perform.

PsiPhi

10-30-2007, 10:40 PM

Sus - Hi and welcome, I've only been here a short while myself, but I'm sure you'll get a lot of good responses.
I'm partial to a little Sci Fi. Is this project for an artwork or a story - if the latter let me know when it's published, so much new stuff now is fantasy, I prefer the techie type stuff.

Anyhows, as I said my boating knowlege is limited but your reference ... I'm thinking a box boat (if im right calling it that? where the front is a vertically standing wedge shape)
... might be refering to a Sharpie [Google "Norwalk Island Sharpies"]

As to having sail ability, look at some of the attempts at using sold 'wing' sails, then devise a collapsable version you can retract into the boat that would be technically feasible.

It's gotta be a 'stealth' boat too.

One of my favourite quotes about writing Sci Fi I read in 'Fallen Angels' by Niven, Pournelle & Flynn - it goes "the secret of realism was to describe the thumb so well that the reader thinks he has seen the entire hand."
In other words, rather than describe everything about your boat, just describe the bits that you know are OK.

Good luck, and where can I see some of your artwork?

Here's the last boat I drew, I've re:titled it "Pre Epoxy: Boating before Bote-Cote" :D

16870

Also, take a look at the Random Picture thread on this site, some really interesting boats there

Sus

10-31-2007, 12:22 AM

Yay! I'm at the right place. This has been a pet project of mine for many years, now let's see if I can respond.

>>lack of space craft in use sixty years ago
yep, sci-fi i difficult 2065 doesn't seem that far of, but your right, already we're into some wierd possibilities. I'd love to hear more about your experience in the big leagues.

>>define the mission
Proteus is a test-platform for a long range patrol boat to be stationed in the southern ocean. It's small size is due to its prototype nature.

>>type of threats this future military might be facing
retrofitted modern vessels mostly, pirates... heh, now, I'm not gonna tell you the whole story, start with "Mad Max of the high seas" and we'll go from there ok?

yep, we can fit stealth in there too I think.

by long range patrol I mean very long with no substantial aid from any port but home. This is why I want a sail function. But still it needs to perform hard when asked to. I'm aware of the problems of hybridization, compromising away the whole point, I'm not advocating it. I'm saying this is what the planners want and this is what I'm after, a rugged multi-purpose long-range patrol boat that can respond to all sorts of eventualities including running out of fuel.

>>Norwalk Island Sharpies
even closer to home, and more vertical
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/5455/cat/505/sortby/r/sorttime/999/way/desc

>>the secret of realism
yep I totally get that, nice one

>>>Random Picture thread
been on that 2 or 3 hours today, some very interesting stuff I see, kinda curious why the heavy focus on 3d techniques but Id guess thats what the industry is asking for these days..?

>>Pre Epoxy
good stuff, that all penwork or contrast adjusted pencil? thats a lot of pebbles!! :p

>>some of your artwork?
of course! XD --> http://suskasuina.deviantart.com/
though, I'm so all over the place in that gallery (hint: have a look at my scraps gallery) and there isnt any of my vehicle designs there.

PsiPhi

10-31-2007, 02:37 AM

start with "Mad Max of the high seas" and we'll go from there ok?
OK, so, Mad Max v. Waterworld, cooool! - I'm gonna pre-order my copy now :)

So what you're looking for is a mobile, long-range, self sufficient, military base?
I can see this base being half pirate itself, just to keep itself provisioned.

As well as being 'stealth' coated for low radar reflection, the skin of the ship should have solar collector capabilities to refresh batteries.

I imagine it would not employ a propellor, but (dunno what you call it, where the water enters the body of the boat to be accelerated) jets.
Yep, they use jet engines in boats too (water jet that is). There is a thread here by Terry King [http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=19836] showing his photos of the F1 Boat Races.

that all penwork or contrast adjusted pencil? thats a lot of pebbles!!
Mapping (dip) pen, and India Ink - Brighton Beach really is that pebbley!

Bergalia

10-31-2007, 07:52 AM

...my first project I'm tentatively calling Proteus Built around 2065...Proteus is a military prototype, a small test platform for a variety of systems .

Welcome Sus...but sorry to be a 'party-pooper' (do they still use that expression ?)..but I rather think the name Proteus has already been adopted.

She's named the Proteus, a ‘wave adaptive modular vessel’ - WAM-V for short - and was developed by Ugo Conti of El Cerrito Marine Advanced Research Inc. And I think she's also been discussed on earlier threads.

yipster

10-31-2007, 09:09 AM

i once sollicited as designer at one of the topfloors of that transam building
keep reality in mind Sus but keep it coming, more artwork also

Sus

10-31-2007, 11:04 AM

Is there any reason 2 boats cant share the same name?

In Greek mythology, Proteus is an early sea-god, one of several deities whom Homer calls the "Old Man of the Sea"[1], whose name suggests the "first", as protogonos is the "primordial" or the "firstborn". He became the son of Poseidon in the Olympian theogony (Odyssey iv. 432), or of Nereus and Doris, or of Oceanus and a Naiad, and was made the herdsman of Poseidon's seals, the great bull seal at the center of the harem. He can foretell the future, but, in a mytheme familiar from several cultures, will change his shape to avoid having to; he will answer only to someone who is capable of capturing him. From this feature of Proteus comes the adjective protean, with the general meaning of "versatile", "mutable", "capable of assuming many forms": "Protean" has positive connotations of flexibility, versatility and adaptability. -wikipedia

I saw pics of that proteus a few months ago ...looks hideous, but the principle design features don't insist that it look hideous.

There was another interesting innovator
http://www.geocities.com/aerohydro/home.htm
http://www.geocities.com/aerohydro/images/earlywork2.jpg
It looks cool, sort of like a sailboat got in a train wreck and kept going, purported to give some good speed.

Then of course there's the wierdness that is Wing in ground effect vehicles
http://www.se-technology.com/wig/index.php

I'd love to hear what you guys think about these in terms of drawbacks and advantages.

>>Mad Max v. Waterworld
lol, Waterworld was supposed to be Mad Max on the high seas, the first 15 minutes are fascinating but its a let-down. Let's adjust my description, we aren't fighting over fuel but the security of shipping lanes.

>>half pirate
well food isn't that big a deal, but energy shortages are and even in that case its not like you just can't get fuel, its just too expensive.

>>mobile, long-range, self sufficient, military base?
not 'base' so much, but able to launch boarding parties and defend itself against small arms. mobile infantry (SEAL) would be a better description.

Petros

10-31-2007, 01:18 PM

pirates are a safe bet (smugglers too), they have been with us since the beginning of recorded history, and still with us now, and likely be with us in the future. I just read that the US military had recently thwarted several attepted acts of Piracy against a Korean freighter and a Singapore transport by sinking several pirate skiffs in Indonesia. Including boarding the Korean freighter to capture the pirates, free the crew and return the freighter to the crew's control.

I do not see ANY advantage to sail power in a military/patrol type of vessel. Sails have been completely eclipsed by powered vessels for almost a century because, other than sport and recreation, the weather is not a reliable means of transportation. The size and complexity of the rigging is as least (if not more) the cost crew, maintenance, and replacement cost of a reliable powered drive (which you would still have to have). Especially considering you also want to include a retraction mechanism. Sails do not even have a "stealth" benefit since the mast and rigging are bill board to a radar (especially a military one). And you want it submersible AND sail capable? This is what I mean by "scizoid" design. There is no practical benefit to sails on such a craft.

What you might include is a hybred drive and fuel system, with all electric final drive. Primary power would have super efficient solar collectors on the skin (all of the upper hull skin generates electricity?) and super efficient and compact electric storage batteries (all experimental of course). This would allow the ship to operate without refueling. You could also have heavy water extractors (duetrium or heavy water exists naturally in sea water, with a way to extract and store it efficiently while underway could power the ship even without the sun). It would be powered of course by a compact (and radiation free) fusion power plant. The cost and weight and bulk of sail rig would be more valuble to use on other more important equipment.

kach22i

10-31-2007, 02:11 PM

I e-mailed the designer/builder of this submarine, told him it looked a little like some of my hovercraft designs. Talk of combining the two never went past a foolish one line joke.

Link:
http://www.submarineboat.com/

Combining several features into one machine is what makes it Sci-Fi, in real life this is just too hard to do (well/cheaply).

One thing you should look up if you are not already familiar with is Gerry Anderson, the creator of the Thunderbirds. Put aside the whole puppet thing and look at all the great ideas they developed into models.

Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Anderson

safewalrus

10-31-2007, 03:16 PM

Solar ain't much good on a submarine, nor is wind power - try nuclear (apparantly that works!! No really it does! I can see four prime examples from my bedroom window!) The modern ones don't need to refuel! The two main problems are crew - comfort (even the most spartan need SOME comfort! even 'hot bunking' still needs some bunks!) and food / drink! Lot of storage space needed there! At 40 feet you ain't going to carry much of a crew are you? especially long range deep sea work (100 meters is DEEP!)

Also of course your weapon load? where you going to put all those bullets? or spears? or rockets or whatever, you can not rely on taking it from the opposition.

Lets face it a 40 footer ain't going to have much more than four to six in its crew for long range work! now day running (max three to four days) you'll get fifteen to twenty at a push (get a few killed off at the first engagement gives the rest more room)! But with odds like that there's gotta be a good reason to 'ship' doubt if a goverment vessel would supply it, now a pirate? But they just steal other peoples boats! Oh yes, don't worry to much about stealth at that size radar wouldn't see your sails - they absorb the radio waves! They do now so they will then (unless you are using metal 'sails' - now theres a thought!!!!!!!!

Sus

10-31-2007, 03:24 PM

I tried. I think youre right about ditching the sail function
the foil i used is probably too elaborate too with the retractable wings, they dont look right on squat body of a sailboat and with the mast stowage in the way there isn't anyway to brace it properly.

next attempt a foil/sub... I'm thinking 70-80 feet now

>>pirates are a safe bet
yup, I read a book on it called Dangerous Waters, mostly we're talking about south china seas, but the principle is easy to extrapolate - there's just so much damn water out there.

>>hybred drive and fuel system, with all electric final drive
not exactly sure what you mean, but that sounds cool! :p i think you are saying, you seperate the power system from the propulsion, where the propulsion is all electric and can retreive energy from a number of sources..?

>>solar collectors on the skin
yes

>>efficient and compact electric storage batteries
yes

>>heavy water extractors / fusion power plant
hmm, I'm skeptical about fusion power - moreso about compact, safe, portable... I've kicked around ideas like thermal batteries and hydrogen fuel cells, etc... all sorts of interesting things, not seriously considered fusion though. I'm thinking a very advanced combustion system at the moment.

>>hovercraft/submarine
thunderbirds GO!

>>Combining several features
rotorwing aircraft anyone?

re: my attachment : allow me to be the first to say lol thats ridiculous...

safewalrus

10-31-2007, 03:35 PM

Sailpower - why not? streamlined bipod mast (on hinges) fitted with a crab claw hanging between the 'shears'! single wire to winch as head stay! haul away up comes the mast, sheet home the single crab claw and your off! Wanna dive? Slip the hook on the head stay, controlled lower on the shear legs, the whole lot drops on deck, hatch closes over the top, dog down dive! Shouldn't be to hard to devise and streamline the system.................now there's a thought!!!!!!!

Straight of the top of my head!

kach22i

10-31-2007, 03:38 PM

thunderbirds GO!

I would suggest that if the polar ice caps continue to melt that the salt content of the seas would get lowered, which would effect the buoyancy of any future boat design.

Attention to tiny details can help the affect of the overall story, right?

I'm thinking along the lines of some kind of compensator.

Also the craft would be 100% rototic and not manned at all.

safewalrus

10-31-2007, 03:41 PM

If its not manned whats the point?

kach22i

10-31-2007, 03:44 PM

If its not manned whats the point?
What's the point of any of us?

The big question begs the big answer.............and the adventure begins.

safewalrus

10-31-2007, 03:44 PM

Damned if I know - but hell it's fun finding out eh!!

Sus

10-31-2007, 04:15 PM

>>crab claw hanging between the 'shears'! single wire to winch as head stay!
o.O um... are you teasing the landlubber? got a picture of what youre talking about?

>>effect the buoyancy
possibly, but i'm supposing that while sea levels have risen and many glaciers have disappeared 2065 will not be a conveyor-shutoff scenario, something which I imagine would happen long before the aggregate buoyancy of the worlds oceans would change significantly.

>>What's the point
yeah, back to my scenario, the point is to board pirate/pirated ships with soldiers and robots cant even walk yet. Lets characterize the scenario as advanced conventional, or near-future sci-fi. mk?

kach22i

10-31-2007, 05:03 PM

the point is to board pirate/pirated ships with soldiers and robots cant even walk yet.
Perfect for robots, dangerous reconnaissance missions that UAV's are doing today.

As far a "walking", I'm sure they (robots) can out walk (or dance) us in 58 years.

And as far as you know, I could be a robot right now (or a dog).:D

If you want to know whAt the military will be using tommmorow, look what they are willing to fund today.

SBIR/SITIS
http://www.dodsbir.net/

Current Solicitation(s)
http://www.dodsbir.net/solicitation/default.htm

Bergalia

10-31-2007, 06:58 PM

What's the point of any of us?

God, Kach...you sound just like my wife...only she makes it more personal...:(

PsiPhi

10-31-2007, 08:13 PM

re: my attachment : allow me to be the first to say lol thats ridiculous...

Sus, we're brain-storming here, there's no such thing as 'ridiculous' in a brainstorming session, and anyway, I like the drawings.

I'm not a great fan of nuclear (even if it does actually work). It's been used in so many novels as some sort of wonder power system that can do anything and therefore doesn't need to be technically sound - it can do anything just because it is nuclear, the authors haven't constained their usage to even the theorhetical limits of nuclear (which must exist).

Bare in mind I have no techincal background in this field, I offer my opinion as a would-be reader only. :p

Petros

10-31-2007, 09:19 PM

They use nuke power on military vessels now, why not in the future? But Fusion power plants, not the current fission type (very big difference, if you do not know the difference you will have to look that up for yourself). But making it small, compact and efficient means you will have a large amount of power at your disposal for all kinds of uses, including energy weapons? They will have small fusion power packs available long before they ever make hydrogen batteries compact and efficient (I have studies them both), at least not without a technology break through with batteries. Fusion plants (not fission) yeild clean power without waste and uses low risk readily available fuel from heavy sea water (not radio active BTW).

Forget the sails, they have NO USEFUL function on a military vessel unless your intent is to camouflage it as a pleasure yacht. Come to think of it that might be an interesting idea, and the only reason it would have sails at all, especially if the purpose is to hunt pirates and smugglers. Think of how bad guys might react when they think they will be overtaking and sacking a wealthy guy's pleasure yacht, and it takes off on foils powered by a fusion powered turbine, and comes back around to bite them. What fun.

You could not have a vessel (or a mission) like this by an unmanned vessel, there are too many important on-the-spot decisions that have to be made. Particularly if you have hostage situations, or risk civilians (human shields).

But there would be a good reason to have a number of specialized remotely piloted subs to go inspect things, take pictures, sabotage drives, etc. You could have a whole inventory of these kind of devices. Make sure you make realistic limited power/batter life for such craft, with appropriate range and practical telemetry control distances.

And make it bit bigger, like 60 to 70 feet. That way you can have a small squad of weapons and special ops personnel, as well as several different mission specialists and tech types on board. If it is a cat or trimaran then it need not have to have a deep hull. In fact looking at the Italian Hydrotere it almost looks like something out of a sci-fi movie. It is awsome.

PsiPhi

10-31-2007, 10:28 PM

Why is everyone so anti-sails? :confused:
What about if your Fussion (hey, I just invented a new technology, not a typo) plant packs up - it happens in all the best stories at some point or other.

I like the idea of camouflaging as a pleasure/merchant ship, but still think we can come up with a futuristic sailplan - maybe a kite even?
Of course Murphy's Law says that if you do loose all other forms of propultion - it'll be on a day that you're becalmed anyway :confused:

I was thinking about a small, 2 man?, rapid response craft carried on board [I've got a nice sketch here on my desk I just made, but no scanner :( ] - think Avrocar launching off the aft deck.

PsiPhi

10-31-2007, 10:41 PM

Wave powered boat!
http://www.tsuneishi.co.jp/english/horie/index.html
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=19719

Petros

10-31-2007, 11:09 PM

If the fusion plant "packs up" there would be no left alive to sail it anyway. :(

If there is no power at the power plant you switch to battery drive, and solar recharge. Of course the futuristic pleasure yacht sail boat "decoy" would always have the "wind drive" back-up.

Sus

10-31-2007, 11:38 PM

>>crab claw
im liking the sound of safewalrus idea. i just wouldn't know where to begin with a collapsible mast on rotating joints, can you help me understand whats necessary to make her sail? It doesn't have to be the best of all possible race sails, in fact as a backup system it should favor simplicity over performance, though i'm concerned if we have this big metal boat its gonna be too heavy or require many people to operate.

>>and special ops personnel
yes, ok after proteus I'll be needing a production version which will be larger and have marines quarters... yes and angry little robot submarines too XD

>>fission.. why not in the future?
its not a matter of why not, i'm not here to examine every possibility, a small nuke is feasible but problematic in whys my protagonists wish to avoid. on the other hand the combustion engine is tried and true and if we can make a fission 80 footer we can damn well make a rechargeable gas tank - imagine fast breeding algae that ferments itself... even if it takes a day or two to recharge its bio-diesel on demand

>>fusion
its future is far from certain and is being pursued on is ecological-alternative potential

>>fussion
yeah, i heard of that, very cool stuff, except the part about juggling baby geese... that just wasn't funny

>>wave action
lol

>>camouflaging
its interesting yeah, i've been focusing on various forms of ambush from both sides - this isnt a conventional war after all

>>that you're becalmed
the doldrums cant last forever, as an emergency system a sail would reduce a life-threatening situation to an annoying one

the strongest argument against a sail function is it might never be necessary, but as long as power systems are complex or require refueling things can go wrong.

charmc

11-01-2007, 01:37 AM

what satisfies me is the criteria, that it seems plausible and that I understand it well enough to justify my claims.

my first project I'm tentatively calling Proteus Built around 2065

Proteus is a military prototype, a small test platform for a variety of systems (no weapons systems though - its a transport), I put it at maybe 60 feet, much of which is crammed with systems, making the interior something like what you'd get on a 40 footer.

It will need to be capable of braving Drake Passage in the worst of conditions, to that end it can operate as a submersible and has an airlock. ... It's powerplant, autopilot and durability are all interesting features. I'm not all that sure about powerplants, ... I have considered including in this list a sailing feature but there are a couple problems. weight, control system, hull shape, how to compact the mast, etc.

Hi, Sus,

Great project! It sounds like you're working up a concept for a boat to be used in a story you'll be writing. I'll proceed on that assumption. I think it's a good concept, as there is much discussion in naval circles about efforts to combat threats from small but extremely nasty nations and/or groups, so a great focus on littoral operations. You'd be right in the mix.

A few comments: Fusion (and it's deadly cousin, fussion :D ) has been mentioned, and criticized as not feasible for you near future world. I think fusion is a good option. Near future writing has unique hazards; your concepts can be overtaken by sudden advances in technology, so what was cutting edge or innovative becomes dated in a few years. An example that comes to mind is "Choosers of the Slain", (Yes, Max, the title is from Kipling) an excellent novel of naval combat written in the late 1990's and set around 2030. A "futuristic" naval destroyer fights off attacks by a power bent on taking over Antarctica to exploit secretly discovered oil reserves. The book was a best seller, and became a series. The ship is described as far advanced beyond anything conceived in the late 20th Century, but her major elements, i.e. all electrically operated systems, stealth design for a low radar profile, main engines which are direct drive electric motors mounted outside the hull with the props and pivoting for enhanced steering, small stealthy helicopters with miniaturized air-to air missiles carried in internal bays, all became standard equipment in some naval and even commercial ships within 2-3 years of publication. The author himself admitted that he was amazed at how rapidly technology had overtaken his imagination. Another element was pure bad luck. The ship was named Randal Cunningham, named for the US Navy's first fighter ace of the Vietnam War, and one of the most highly decorated pilots of that era. No way the author could have known, of course, but Cunningham later ran for Congress and pleaded guilty a few years ago to soliciting millions in bribes in return for awarding government contracts.

So don't name your vessel after any living public figure, and go ahead and be free with your imagination. Compact fusion plants even power armored hovercraft "tanks" in military future fiction, so why not fusion for a multi-role small combat ship operating independently?

If she's really going to carry military type equipment and the crew to operate it while surviving Drake Passage storms and submerging now and then, I think it would be more believable if she were a bit larger, around 150 -200 ft. That's small enough to not require a huge crew, big enough to be conceivable as a seagoing carrier of exotic equipment, also small enough to be made of exotic composite materials.

Last thought for now. Someone mentioned an unmanned primary vessel. Bad idea. The best fiction makes the genre and setting secondary to the conflict, which must have believable characters. An artificial intelligence could be a central character, but it would have to have humanlike traits. Arthur C. Clarke's Hal of 2001: A Space Odessy fame, became memorable only when it went insane and tried to murder the crew. Robots can be there, but you need likable human characters to drive the narrative. Choosers of the Slain is still a good read despite the dated "advanced" technology, because of the well developed characters.

OK, a fusion powered seagoing patrol boat/small ship, with a bipod-mounted rigid foil sail rig, capable of submerged ops. With ample power from the fusion plant, why not throw in a rail gun and/or plasma cannon (sort of a mega-laser) for defense or for the odd chasing and bashing of pirates and Third World warlords? On the subject of bipod sails, Brian Eiland, a member here, has a few designs for a bipod mast that looks like it could be folded easily. Use the search function here with his name and you'll get access to some neat design illustrations.

Have fun!

charmc

11-01-2007, 01:56 AM

And as far as you know, I could be a robot right now (or a dog).:D

Hi, Kach!

safewalrus

11-01-2007, 07:30 AM

So Petros sails have no useful function on a military vessel - to use one of your own Heros - good job John Paul Jones didn't know that isn't it? or thousands of others before or since! (I believe the US Coast Guard has a completely useless ship called the Eagle, if it's that useless how come they haven't scrapped it yet?)

Then of course we come to the nuclear argument (as put up by Peepee) - no use at all eh! now if You'd read my post you might have seen some mention of the fact that I could see four neuclear vessels from my bedroom window that seem to work very well, submersable too! AND they've been used sucessfully in Anger! By our Navy at least - go on you may find your own has actually done it a couple of times as well........but there again nuclear won't work at sea will it? Numpty!

Sus to follow on from Charlie - there's a mention of Crab Claw sails on this forum as well, plus the bipod mast has its own shrouds (them's the stuff that makes em stand up and not fall over from side to side - the ones that prevent em falling over from front to back are called stays - what you really need is a basic book of nautical teminoligy - if you want to write about boats yoy need to be able to speak the language - sam as if you want to talk to a Spaniard - you need to speak Spanish (Ok these days the majority of Spaniards speak English but you know what I mean). As I see it a single sail slung under / between a bipod mast is the simple basic system which can be used quite easily AND be as high tech as you want! And with the size of vessel you envisage be good back up because of the payload size - and why the hell in a Special Forces Scenario do you need seperate quarters for marines? why can't the marines operate their own vessel - ours do!!!

Petros

11-01-2007, 01:59 PM

> Why is everyone so anti-sails?

I am not anti-sail, it is just that they have no business on a boat with a serious mission such as the one proposed here. The story will come across as silly sounding if there is not some plausible realism even as sci fi. The only plausible way a sailboat could be used in such a mission is as a pleasure yacht decoy.

I love sailboats, but I have no delusions about them. I know they are totally irrational and they serve no practical purpose. But yet I can think of few better ways to waste time and money than messing around with sailboats. It is in fact a very good way (perhaps one of the best ways) to waste time and money while you actually believe you are accomplishing something important.

And that is why sail boats will never go away despite being obsolete, expensive and irrational to own.

safewalrus

11-01-2007, 07:02 PM

Bull-****

Sus

11-01-2007, 07:56 PM

something interesting from CNN

The crew members of a North Korean freighter regained control of their ship from pirates who hijacked the vessel off Somalia, but not without a deadly fight, the U.S. Navy reported Tuesday.

(somalia 0 North Korea 1)

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/interactive/world/0710/chart.pirate.attacks/pirate.attacks.ap.gif
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/africa/10/30/somalia.pirates/index.html?imw=Y&iref=mpstoryemail
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/africa/10/30/somalia.pirates/index.html?imw=Y&iref=mpstoryemail#cnnSTCOther2

American warships are currently shadowing a Panamanian vessel full of Benzine that they say has been captured by pirates

I heard about Somalia pirates a while back, in that case the story was Somalians shooting at luxury liners and trying to capture such ships.

masalai

11-01-2007, 08:13 PM

Sus,
The future will see vessels which are capable of re-shaping to meet the application. Like the 'silvery' transforming shapes sent from the future to eliminate 'arnie' as he looked after a boy. What was that movie?

Any way, shape to a sailing vessel when that desire was what the 'occupier' or captain of the ship desired, or a submarine or a flying saucer from the good lady when she is not.

Then all the design freaks can have it their way at the time they want. A boat for everyones taste!

Sus

11-01-2007, 09:22 PM

>>Terminator/the whole sail-controversy
how quickly absolute utopia turns into absolute dystopia, don't hang all your hopes on badass technology, its been shown time and again there is always a cost, nearly all the cool military tech ever in the world of Men was a result of a strong ambitious imperial military power (read; one which the citizens could not control)... we may have cars but I've lived in cities built for bicycles and they are better... For incredibly awesome technology I'd like to see the gizmo that eliminates poverty, heals without dehumanizing, or feeds the starving without resentments resulting. Most of the artists I know of like a good picture that shows off something dramatic, i'm not like that - at least; I think heroism and high tech wonders are no less a mixed blessing than life itself. How clean is fission? what a long lasting bad taste for earth is a 100,000 year half-life...

a little humility please. What a feast we have now, but who's picking up the bill tonight? put on the tab just means our kids will pay, mine is their story

masalai

11-01-2007, 09:52 PM

Hi Sus, I was laughing as I was entering previous, thinking similar thoughts to you, but alas I like to stir the pot occasionally. check out this thread http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=168304 where I am on my hobby-horse on CNO (coconut oil fuel)

I thought you were after some futuristic vision for a fantasy movie.

If you wish to look in detail at my private community development project email me direct as is outside any thread herein.

Sus

11-01-2007, 10:57 PM

>>stir the pot
XD i was also reacting to the threads trends, but yeah... molecular fluidity?

>>futuristic vision for a fantasy movie
sure, i guess, at least thats how it oughta look at first glance, i'm all for the hype but of course so much of it is a let down

masalai

11-01-2007, 11:10 PM

Gee Sus, you are burning the 'midnight oil', it's 13:08 here, must be early there?

What was the purpose of your thread, ie what are you looking for seriously?

Sus

11-02-2007, 01:27 AM

concept art for a story I'm writing.

nah its not even 1am here.

PsiPhi

11-02-2007, 02:39 AM

Sus, excuse the poor quality photos, it was done specifically to disguise the poor quality sketches :D

Reapid response craft taking off from the aft deck/bay.
It's supposed to look like an Avrocar, not a flying saucer!
16934

and what about making it an Akranoplane too - give it a flat bottom and fold down sides (no Walrus, I'm talking about the boat, not myself :P) to increase the 'wing' area and whoosh - ground effect.
16935

masalai

11-02-2007, 02:45 AM

Hi Sus,
If I can get it to work here is a real boat which I like

16936

16937

kach22i

11-02-2007, 11:25 AM

Flying boats with UFO-like aerial probes...................I'm ready, I can see that.:)

May I suggest making the big aerial probe a mother-ship for dragonfly-like UAV's which can enter a ship and fly down it's hallways getting an eye on the situation? Perhaps the robotic dragonflies are host to yet smaller fruit-fly UAV's which can enter the ear of a priate and explode or render them unconscious with drugs or soundwaves.

Man I'm good at this.:D

Sus

11-02-2007, 12:57 PM

>>dragonfly-like UAV's
yes, very cool, and what about counter-dragonflies? robot monitor lizards? XD srsly, micro-uavs is in for situations when there aren't likely to be counter-measures. no mothership though unless its something like a toy size submarine, big enough to make headway in any sort of wind is big enough to be shot down automatically by most weapon systems.

>>a real boat which I like
thanks for sharing, got some nice lines and it looks real comfortable

>>whoosh - ground effect
smallest aircraft carrier im considering is over 300 feet and carries a big ole tilt-rotor, bout twice as big as an osprey, plus a dozen uavs and a small chopper. your deal looks like it needs some rocket fuel, sorry to say thats just too extravagant!

got a pictrure in the works now, maybe having it done today or tomorrow

Petros

11-02-2007, 01:10 PM

>dragonfly-like UAV's which can enter a ship and fly down it's hallways getting an eye on the situation?

Actually there are current RFPs out for such devices. NASA and a number of private contractors have working examples of these very fragile flutter bug-like devices with micro processors that can fly around inside a building to "see" who or what kind of threat are inside. They do not have much transmitting range, but they have these now!

In near future these would not only be operational, but have more capacity and have larger transmission range.

kach22i

11-02-2007, 02:24 PM

Actually there are current RFPs out for such devices...................

In near future these would not only be operational, but have more capacity and have larger transmission range.

I know, and the machines which can walk on walls are pretty cool to.

Like I said, smart machines (robots), why would you need to put anyone in harms way?

Ships are so automated now that the crews are only there as a back up system.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to imagine that 58 years from now that the pirates will be also using robots. Only their robots will attack the shipping lane robot ships. Perhaps two people at the controls could be sitting across from each other in a coffee shop and people in Vegas would be placing bets on the whole event.

It's a sick world, anything is possible.

Dang I'm good at this.:D

Sus

11-02-2007, 03:03 PM

yeah ok, but these are peripherals and i still dont even have a hull

I'm definately interested in these possibilities

- Surface-Effect-Ship : hybrid lifting body ship that combines the high-speed capabilities of a hydrofoil and the rough-water stability of a small waterplane area twin hull (SWATH)
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/images/ses-200-image05.jpg
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/ses-200-gallery.htm

- Jetfoils : etfoil design has a normal service speed in foil-born mode of around 45 knots ... limited by cavitation such systems cant currently breach 50 knots, but i suppose also to go over that you may as well have a ground effect airplane (retractable wings?) or a planing hull (very bad sea-keeping)
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/images/phm-3-DNST9009065.JPG
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/hydrofoil.htm

the speed record is held by the FRESH-1, which is in the vicinity of 70 knots... a transit foil system [designed to provide a smooth transition from a sub-cavitating to a fully cavitating flow regime and thus permit speeds up to 100 knots] was never tested...
http://www.foils.org/fresh.htm
i read that this ugly puppy is the fastest hydrofoil boat
http://www.foils.org/fresh1.jpg

Luigi Colani's thingy
http://www.foils.org/gallery/col05.jpg

safewalrus

11-02-2007, 06:57 PM

Trouble with all that spidery stuff is that as your trying to go 'deep sea' in more ways than one you will encounter rough weather! Break down and breakup coming up!!! If you see what I mean - all that pretty stuff is designed for calm water - or somewhere you can run to if it cuts up rough!! - now a 'sailing sub' - economical, get underneath it if you get the weather warning in time, run before it if you don't sort of thing sounds good to me! But hell it's only a story - right! Wrong it has to be feasable or it won't sell!

Simple to repair too if it all goes wrong - and it will! Especially if the opposition is out to get you as well!!

Sus

11-02-2007, 08:13 PM

yeah, I'm thinking it actually has 4 modes

displacement : stable, for ports and rough sea surfaces
jetfoil : for moderately rough seas and calm / retractable foils
sail : with retractable mast
sub : with retractable elevators

1. first trick will be a hull that isn't a major drawback in any of those roles
2. second trick is combining some of the fin-functions so all this retractable equipment doesn't hug up all the interior space
3. third trick figuring out a cockpit/interior layout

yipster

11-03-2007, 06:36 AM

upside down this old warship has 4 modes :idea: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4871&d=1135697466
like this fantasy i came across better tho http://www.soniacoleman.com/Sonias_Studio/hitchhiker.htm

Sus

11-03-2007, 11:31 AM

dank je wel yipster dat is erg mooi! I've never heard of such a project, late or post ww2? where on earth did you come across that?! I can't find anything online about it. the schematic seems to show the interior dominated by engines and batteries, if there wasnt a ladder depicted i'd wonder if it wasn't unmanned. is that a crew cabin in the middle?

did however find this

http://www.ag-schnelle-boote.de/kleine-kampfboote.html
and
http://www.ag-schnelle-boote.de/tfboote.html

http://www.ag-schnelle-boote.de/tf-w.gif

and im liking the look of this one

http://www.ag-schnelle-boote.de/tf7.gif

yipster

11-03-2007, 12:39 PM

yes the german sub is inventif but it is the other pic i find "mooi"
would have been a heavy contraption and allready easy target in 44
topside down however i dreamt the tower as keel and foils as sails

got it from a site like above and scrolling down that site i see the concept was allready there in 40
gave up on diving i see but keep it sailing!

edit, Tom Speer showed another almost sci-fi sub at http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=168761#post168761

safewalrus

11-03-2007, 07:22 PM

kach22i

11-04-2007, 12:14 PM

Here is what you do:

1. For the worse possible weather conditions the craft goes into submersible mode.

2. The diving planes and horizontal part of the rudders (wings) can change profile and extend out and be pulled all the way in too.

3. The "wings" in full spread mode will act as airplane or WIG/Ekranoplan aerofoil wing.

4. The wings part of the way down (could be Gull-Wing) may serve as hydrofoil lifting foils.

5. Of course if your craft uses a "lifting Body" things could be even simpler.

Then again, you could just show something which nobody has a clue how it is supposed to work and baffle them with ********.:D

Sample:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=20897
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=15429

safewalrus

11-04-2007, 05:13 PM

Ah but your submersible would need large tanks (for ballast) and be pretty stong (for strength read heavy) this contradicts the use of a 'spindly spider' to get the speed - one or t'other - not both!

Conversely your that far in the future like Kach sez 'be vague and bull5h1t!'

kach22i

11-05-2007, 08:58 AM

Real world stuff in service:

North Korea: Hi Speed Submergible Boat
http://www.strange-mecha.com/ship/M-Sub/N-Korea01.htm
http://www.strange-mecha.com/ship/M-Sub/hssb.JPG

http://www.fas.org/man/eprint/anti-sof.htm
http://www.fas.org/man/eprint/image25.jpg
North Korean naval forces have significant numbers of watercraft of various sizes and capabilities allocated exclusively to a maritime infiltration mission. These craft include a variety of submarines, coastal patrol craft, high-speed semi-submersible craft, air-cushioned amphibious craft, and rubber raiding craft.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread281932/pg1
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/8153/usnstealthboatxr4.jpg
US stealth special forces boat, possibly submersible:

Petros

11-05-2007, 02:04 PM

It occurred to me to need to do a little research on what is current technology anyway, and what is underdevelopment. Foil surface ships have been around since WW2 at least (I used to watch a children's 'adventure' cartoon called "Johnny Quest" in the early 60's that had a foil ship as their normal means of sea travel).

One of the best places to learn what is current is in Jane's Fighting ships (current edition), most libraries have copies available in their references sections, or check here:

http://jfs.janes.com/public/jfs/index.shtml

While at the library check also check Jane's all the worlds Aircraft, look over last years worth of Aviation Week and Space Technology magazine (they may have a free on-line version as well), for the latest in developmental contracts in aviation.

Also there are some pretty good contemporary sci-fi books that are not bad in anticipating near future weapons systems. I like David Webber and John Ringo's work (though some of their stuff is far future space opera). The book series "Path of Fury" is good at listing what kinds of implants and weapons systems for "special ops" soldiers might be using in the future.

Others on this list might be able to suggest a few other authors. Most of the "techno-thriller" type books have pretty good near future/current technology backgrounds in the stories.

Not only do you need to stay current on what is current technology in terms of sea and air-borne technology, but you also need to know what is selling in terms of "techno-thriller" novels, or you will not sell your story. You need to write to the market place or you will be just another unemployed writer.

Good luck.

safewalrus

11-05-2007, 05:12 PM

Most still only useful in light weather! The bigger vessels (Frigates and Corvettes) may be better in rough weather but being big are still easier to 'see'

kach22i

11-06-2007, 10:30 AM

SUS, have you seen the work of Karlos before?

I saw this and thought of this thread.

Link:
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/7669/ppuser/18918

Sus

11-06-2007, 12:34 PM

>>Tom Speer
The glider concept is pretty interesting, this is good practical work for UAVs, however it doesn't seem to be useful for passenger transport and its way too slow for anything military - cant even add it as an extra function because the systems take up so much room. thanks for showing me that thought, pretty damn cool.

>>The "wings" in full spread mode will act as airplane
Yeah, I had that idea too. We have to suppose the pressure hull is extraordinarily light. I'm calling it intracomposite, (XD bull541t, yeah...) by which i mean, it isn't an alloy and the manner of compositing isn't layers but a matrix, a weave really, as if you could treat titanium fibers and other materials like cloth and make a fabric that has some excellent characteristics - especially light weight to pressure-bearing capacity and a good resistance to ruptures. Even so I don't suppose my Proteus can fly well or far - the limitation being power; the jets are fully electric and operate in or out of water, they are extremely compact too, however the Proteus requires all 7 operating at peak capacity to take to the air and thats some big energy gulping process. Rechargeable thermal batteries in conjunction with a conventional battery array? The diesel engines are also very advanced and generate enormous amounts of energy... yadda yadda - have a look at my attachment.

>>uses a "lifting Body"
not sure what that is

>>one or t'other - not both!
It can be done, the Proteus is a long list of comprises - but think about it, if theres a technology for making a very light submarine, we dont need 3000 feet dives, just enough to get under rough seas, hell 200 would be fine, I'm supposing we can do better and still have a craft with some high performance on the surface, even (as suggested) limited flight and certainly a WIG function.

>>North Korea: Hi Speed Submergible Boat
whacky fun

>>US stealth special forces boat, possibly submersible:
hmmm, I'm not focusing on stealth really, this version of Proteus has rounded surfaces for performance advantages and submarine functions for stealth, maybe even a sound absorbing skin and other sound dampening features, but again this isn't the main job - the Proteus isnt a sub v sub combat ship nor is it a sneaky nuke-launcher - its a patrol boat fighting relatively low-tech adversaries who dont generally try to cover all the bases, especially the sonar angle.

>>Jane's Fighting ships / contemporary sci-fi books / "techno-thriller"
thanks for the suggestions!

>>Karlos
Yep. Karlos is good at that sort of thing, his ideas are pretty fancy though.

I'm wondering if anyone here might want to 3D my boat for me.

So, here is my latest drawing. I have another I did before this, but its a bit of a mess. I used a cockpit/bridge based on Space Ship One. I could talk alot about aspects of this, the main thing thats not shown here is the wings - have a look at http://foils.org/gallery/hydrop3d.jpg for some idea where I'm headed though as mentioned these need to work like aerofoils too.

[The link on the attachment is incorrect should be suskasuina.deviantart.com]

Petros

11-06-2007, 01:32 PM

A lifting body is usually referring to blended wing/body type craft, these can be anything from an "all wing" as the B2 bomber to something short and stubby like the space shuttle. Not always a good flyer, but reduces weight and size by taking advantage the "hull" to generate lift.

But forget it, there is no practical way in the near foreseeable future that anything practical as a sub, surface ship and flyable could even approaching this capability. It would be slow, heavy, a fuel hog, and very clumsy.

Though the idea reminds me of the old sci-fi series call "SeaView" where they had a flying sub. I always loved that show as a child, and the flying sub in particular. Now well over 4 decades later, several degrees and a professional license in engineering, and working in various industries (both hi-tech and low tech), I still do not see how it could be made viable even as sci-fi. Not that you could not make one that would work, it just would not be practical because of limited range and virtually no payload.

BTW, if you make it submersible do not even think of 200 ft depth capability, consider more like 40 ft max (or even 10 ft, to get just below the surface). The kind of pressure at 200 ft means it would be almost worthless for any other type of use since it would have to be too heavy and specialized to be able to go to those depths. Run a simple pressure calculation and you will understand.

Sus

11-06-2007, 01:48 PM

>>A lifting body
ah yeah, i know what you mean

>>there is no practical way
primarily due to weight

>>SeaView
I'm not asking for full flight capability, just short hops

>>more like 40 ft max
I'm not sure that would do the trick, I think we will need 170 feet, i agree it will require a very serious sort of pressure hull, I just don't agree that it will always mean heavy - just.. expensive

safewalrus

11-06-2007, 02:58 PM

In a big blow the scend of the ocean can be pretty deep! If you go too shallow the movement will throw you back up to the surface before you get a chance - and getting down again would be impossible! You have to be pretty deep to get any comfort from the weather! Thats a couple of atmospheres at least! some kinda pressure hull is required!!

Or freeflow water and suits through the cabin but that makes eating a problem (and plays havoc with the paper work and electrics!!!)

kach22i

11-06-2007, 04:05 PM

If you go too shallow the movement will throw you back up to the surface before you get a chance -

Would not a semi-submersible be less prone to overturning due to it's low center of gravity though?

Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-submersible
A semi-submersible or semisubmersible is a watercraft that can put much of its bulk underwater.

With a relatively small area above the water's surface, the semi-submersible is less affected by the waves than a normal ship, but must be trimmed continuously. Unlike a submarine, such a ship never is entirely underwater.

bhnautika

11-06-2007, 05:25 PM

Sus here’s my take from the other side. Semi-submersible, slim body to cut threw waves at high speeds, with a the right power could have some ground effect also.

PsiPhi

11-06-2007, 05:46 PM

But forget it, there is no practical way in the near foreseeable future that anything practical as a sub, surface ship and flyable could even approaching this capability.

....but don't let that stop you. Science Fiction is about inventing the future!
Developments in science follow ideas in science fiction not vice versa - well that may not be strictly true, but it's not totally wrong either. ;)

artemis

11-06-2007, 10:11 PM

:?: Now before someone says "there's no such thing as anti-gravity" think back to the early days of "anti-matter" in sci-phi. Today anti-matter is almost a reality.

:idea: What we need is anti-gravity. This will provide the lift needed to make our craft airborn (and spaceborn as well). The hull can now be built to go to a depth of several thousand feet as the increased weight will be easily abrogated by the anti-gravity generator carried aboard. And the strength needed to withstand the pressure of the deep will also provide an armor to fend off those death rays used by enemy ships. A small nuclear reactor could easily power such a device... after all, anti-gravity generators are fairly compact and have no moving parts.

:D

kach22i

11-07-2007, 09:26 AM

Sus here’s my take from the other side. Semi-submersible, slim body to cut threw waves at high speeds, with a the right power could have some ground effect also.

Awesome, I love it.

It might need lift fans concealed behind louvers in the wings to get airborn though. Perhaps the lift thrust could be angled back 45 degrees via the louvers for forward motion.

Reference:
Louvers:
http://www.hoverclubofamerica.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=1305

http://www.aiaa.org/tc/vstol/unbuilt/breguet/index_a.html
http://www.aiaa.org/tc/vstol/unbuilt/breguet/images/rb162.gif
http://www.aiaa.org/tc/vstol/unbuilt/breguet/images/br1116b.gif
http://www.aiaa.org/tc/vstol/unbuilt/breguet/images/br1030_3.gif

Lift system:
http://www.rutherford-research.ca/rrx/aero...spaceDesign.php (http://www.rutherford-research.ca/rrx/aerospace/aerospaceDesign.php)
http://www.rutherford-research.ca/rrx/aerospace/images/uavConcept.gif
http://www.rutherford-research.ca/rrx/aerospace/images/dualEnginePlusFan.png

Lifting Body/blended wing:
http://www.wingco.com/
http://www.wingco.com/images/April2002/Image08.jpg
http://www.wingco.com/images/cutawy.jpg

kach22i

11-07-2007, 09:34 AM

The post above is too large, sorry about that. It's so large I cannot get to the edit button on the far right hand side.

If the people who fix things on this board want to edit my images, please do so. All I ask is that you keep the links to the original images intact so people can still seek them out.

safewalrus

11-07-2007, 09:35 AM

Katch he's talking 45 feet long, what sort of semisub that small could deal with anything more than force 8?

kach22i

11-07-2007, 09:39 AM

Katch he's talking 45 feet long, what sort of semisub that small could deal with anything more than force 8?
Force 8 is pretty nasty, most small craft that size should not even be out in a force 4, right?

A semisub just about doubles your sea state capabilities, right? And going RIB or RHIB (rubber raft inflatable) adds a good 30%................how about a semisub RHIB?

Some modern life boats for inspriation:
http://www.crseo.ucsb.edu/lter/field/0102season/02jan/outreach/
http://www.crseo.ucsb.edu/lter/field/0102season/02jan/outreach/figures/02_Lifeboat1small.JPG

http://www.boats.dt.navy.mil/pg2/TELSOLAS.htm
http://www.boats.dt.navy.mil/pg2/PHOTOSLG.GIF/TEL_LRG.gif
The TEL Lifeboat is a shallow draft, self-righting, glass reinforced plastic (GRP) craft. It is equipped with a single, four-cylinder diesel engine driving a single screw with a rotatable steering nozzle/rudder assembly and basic navigational equipment. Survival equipment, gear, food, fuel, and bottled fresh water are stowed on board. Some of these lifeboats have been equipped with a fresh air and a sea water spray systems to improve survivability in the event of intense fuel fire or toxic contamination when abandoning ship.

http://dode777.jeeran.com/announcement_page3.html
http://dode777.jeeran.com/Free fall lifeboat.jpg