Lithium Manganese (Li-man) batteries?

[DanishBagger]

First off, I'm not going to build anything like this tomorrow, but what do you guys think of using Li-Man-batteries for electric propulsion? Or even just as ordinary house-batteries? I can't seem to find anywhere else that sells them, but here:

http://www.torqeedo.com/en/hn/products/power.html

The thing is, just with Li-ions they seem to be the better choice in some ways: They accept more of a charge (well, a quicker one), you can use more of the amps quicker and so forth.

Fire hazard? Seems like Torqeedo has that one down.
I also found someone who had built a big cruiser for charter with li-ions where they had done something to the li-ions to that effect. But I have a feeling the manganese version is inherently a bit safer (because it won't burst into flames without the safety circuits), but I can't find the link to those guys.


What makes we gravitate towards these types of batteries is that they don't waste as much energy when they are charged. And that means that they will be good for solar/wind-stuff. And I assume perfect for those with generators (much less time having the gen-set running).

What do you guys (and girls?) think?

[Rick Willoughby]

I am watching the development of these batteries.
http://www.buya123systems.com/prdeki.html
They give astonishing performance but you can see are very expensive at this stage.

Here is an example of a high performance application.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDHJNG2PngQ&mode=related&search=

These batteries have real GRUNT.

I think from a cost perspective lead/acid still offer the best value for boat applications but this could changes as lead price has increased 10 FOLD in the last 5 years and will probably continue to rise as almost every motor car does not go without lead and no one wants to mine the stuff.

Rick W,

[DanishBagger]

Those batteries seems to be simple li-ion cells (even without a safety circuit).
I really don't like standard li-ions cell. If you remove the safety circuit (or even just a falty circuit) it tends to blow up or burst into flames.

But about the lead: Here most cars are running lead-free. I am not even sure if you can even buy leaded gasoline here in Denmark (think it might be outlawed or some such).
Also, it is not allowed here to use lead for roofs (you know, around windows, chimneys etc.) anymore. In fact, if you're restoring a house with leaded "surrounds" (don't know the proper english word for it), you will have to go non-lead. This is in Denmark, but still.

[Rick Willoughby]

Those batteries seems to be simple li-ion cells (even without a safety circuit).
I really don't like standard li-ions cell. If you remove the safety circuit (or even just a falty circuit) it tends to blow up or burst into flames.

But about the lead: Here most cars are running lead-free. I am not even sure if you can even buy leaded gasoline here in Denmark (think it might be outlawed or some such).
Also, it is not allowed here to use lead for roofs (you know, around windows, chimneys etc.) anymore. In fact, if you're restoring a house with leaded "surrounds" (don't know the proper english word for it), you will have to go non-lead. This is in Denmark, but still.

Two things:
1. These nano batteries apparently do not suffer the explosion risk but I have not gone into the detail.

2. Do you use a crank handle to start your cars??? We use lead/acid batteries almost universally for starting. And don't your cars have any electronics??? Our cars are full of electronics and much of the wiring and circuit boards rely on lead based solder for connections.

Rick W.

[DanishBagger]

I thought you were talking leaded gasoline? Not the electronics, nor the batteries.

THe batteries - in the context of lead-use in the future, I see no reason for not going lithium-something in cars if lead-prices seriously rise.

About the supposed nano-batteries: Even if the blokes _theoretically_ can circumvent the inherent danger, what will happen when their "nano-technology" doesn't work? Further, there's inflation in the word "nano" everywhere. I can't seem to find anything, that would warrant the "nano"-label. On the contrary, they only mention "nano" in the usual sales-slur, such as this:
"Based on new, highly active nanoscale material initially developed at MIT, A123Systems’ low impedance Nanophosphate electrode technology provides significant competitive advantage over alternative high power technologies."

Not any mention of patents or how that "nano technology" might even work. Heck, it turns out (from the front page), that the "nanophosphate technology" is proprietary:
"using our proprietary Nanophosphate™ technology "

But that's about it, when it comes to information on their system. I don't trust that kind of advertising and sales tales.

Hell, A123 won't even tell what metal they're using.

Anyhow, I'd prefer a technology, where the basic ingredients aren't prone to sudden explosion-like fires. Hence my asking about the lithium-manganese batteries.

I can't find anywhere on the site that mentions what the lithium-ions are based on? Is it cobalt? Or what is it? Cobalt is my worry, to be frank. I don't want a battery bank, that will catch fire if damaged (of as in the cell-phones: A slightly faulty circuit).

What about Li-manganese batteries?

[Rick Willoughby]

DB
I posted this before:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV8_meso6kU&mode=related&search=
You should listen to what Bill Dube states about the batteries. I do not believe this is nonsense.

The specific power of these batteries is hard to imagine. Think about 0-60mph in under a second. Take another look at the bike.

I also dug up the attached comparison table.

I definitely think these batteries are worthy of close attention.

I have odrered an electric motor for use in one of my boats and I intend to experiment with batteries and solar panels.

I am playing with the design of a long, narrow solar powered boat capable of 10kts. The hull would be approximately a 3x scale up version of the boat here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYoW3XjHRbw
It would end up about 60ft long and 4ft WL beam. I am thinking about making it in three pieces that are bolted together so it is easy to transport. It would weigh around 0.8t and take just 2.5kW to hold 10kts.

Aim would be to transport 2 people in comfort for coastal voyages.

Rick W.

[DanishBagger]

Rick,

I already looked at the video, but it still doesn't address what I need to know. No matter how fast it goes 0-60. I really don't want to "play around" with battery technology in a salt water environment. Especially technology from a company that won't even tell what metal they're using, or what that "nano-technology" is, that supposedly make them safe. That, to me, is inviting catastrophe.

[Rick Willoughby]

DB
Bill Dube is not employed by A123. He is just using their batteries.

If I want to know something I ask. Have you tried to contact A123? They provide contact details on the web site. You could also contact Bill Dube for his view on potential risks.

The bike speaks for itself in terms of the power density. I have seen graphs on the discharge and charge curves in comparison with other batteries but it will take a few years to get the required history to know if there are unique problems.

Any system that has the energy and power density of these batteries is not to be fooled about with. Drop a spanner across the terminals of your ordinary car battery and you will understand what I am saying.

Rick W.

[DanishBagger]

No, I haven't asked, but I did a search on google. Turns out they keep the information about the metal used tight into their bodies. The _consensus_ is that the best _guess_ might be that they use iron as the active metal. However, it remains a guess.

And contact Bill Dube to ask for potential risks? Come on! You've got to be kidding me. That cannot be a serious advice? How the hell do you assume he would know about boating and using that technology in a corrosive environment?


But be my guest. since people that actually know and write about this stuff can't get an answer and report that "it is believed in the business" that the metal is iron. How much of an answer do you think I will get? But sure, you're the fan, and you're the one that are defending their sales pitch. Why don't you ask? Otherwise, it just sounds like you have fallen flat on your tail for nothing else than buzzwords, and what could be resembled to huge tailpipes.

I can't see why you insist that I should be impressed by someone using their proprietary, tech-unknown, batteries in a superfast wheel chair? We're talking about completely different parameters to what goes on in a boat: Very corrosive environment, loads of tossing about, more or less random charging periods, solar charging, generators, alternators, and so forth. And all of that in a floating shell, where fire would be much more disastrous than on a wheel chair that is capable of going 60mph. There's many more parameters to choosing a powersource for a boat than how fast it can deliver its amps.

Yes, the power density seems to be there. But there's more to it than that. YOu can't say that because it can deliver it as x speed, then the density must automaticlly be higher than a (bit) slower delivering battery. That may be a rule of thumb in your world, but rules of thumbs aren't laws of physics.

I am not talking about dropping a spanner on the terms. But have you even seen what problems can arise with computer controlled "safe" batteries?

All your argumentation is eactly like the argumentation people used in the 1990's about li-ion. I'm sorry, but I don't trust anyone enough to let them put a potential source of eplosive fires on board without telling me what it is. No matter how fast discharging they can make it. It would be like telling me to put a gasoline generator in my boat, because the fuel "burns faster". Sorry, but in my world I don't trust sales pitch alone. And I certainly cannot be sold anything without real information, but merely a speed test (on the discharging, that is).

Yes, they claim it to be safe, but so does manufacturers of basic Li-ion. Would I put a normal Li-ion in a boat? Not in my life.

Think parameters: Why do you think not everyone is using gasoline or even higher density fuels such as ether? Could it be that there might be other parameters that matters too?

Still no word on that Li-manganese batteries? I might have to make another thread by now.

[Rick Willoughby]

DB
These references should give you more insight into current developments with Lithium based batteries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion_battery

This one gives more specific references on the development of different cathodes including LiMn2O4.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery
It seems the nanophosphate cathode is getting the most development support from the automobile makers but the science seems to be expanding. The French technology also looks exciting but this is probably a few years off being commercially available.

Rick W.

[DanishBagger]

Rick,

I'm sorry, but I do know quite a bit about batteries. So much in fact, that the information I can get my hands on aren't enough, so much that I'm not falling for A123 sales pitch, nor yours. But obviously you're on a mission regarding the a123-batteries and their proprietary "nanophosphate technology".

You may be trying to "help", but by simply pushing a propriatary product with no technical information and no track record, it's like reading A123's sales brochure. Don't you think I have checked wikipedia?

Perhaps I wasn't too clear, but I seem to recall, that I mentioned going li-man, because they seem _inherently safer_. Not that was convinced Li-Ions were the future. On the contrary. I actually remember reading the wiki on the Li-manganese, but reread my introductory post, and do tell me, if it the questions I ask is answered in that wikipedia post. Because they aren't. Not even close. Nor is the A123 the solution. Well, they might be, but it would be luck, since there's not enough information out there.

I guess I'll let guys like you make the track-record, to prove it is safe. But do remember a fire extinguisher under way.

P.S. I'd happily try out A123's technology, even with their annoying sales pitch and what have we, if it were for a non-corrosive, land-based project. That could be fun, frankly. But not on a boat.

[charmc]

Andre,

You've got a point about the A123 info. There may be something to it, but it appears that the company is still looking for patent protection, and possibly investor capital. It's understandable that they aren't giving out details of the technology yet, but, in the same vein, it's understandable that potential users won't buy the product until the company is prepared to release enough data for an impartial evaluation.

I'd be reluctant, also, to rely on Lithium batteries in a marine environment. My perspective might be a bit unique. One company we represent makes desiccant dehumidifier systems for manufacturers of Lithium batteries. The batteries must be manufactured in an ultra-low humidity environment (less than 1-2% RH at 25 C) because the presence of even minute amounts of moisture can lead to an exothermic reaction and fire. Add to that the less than perfect stability of Lithium battery packs, which increase the possibilities of internal shorts, again leading to fire.

The good news appears to be that battery technology is advancing much more rapidly than in the past century. Hopefully, there will be a more detailed information available soon.

[Pericles]

DanishBagger,

These might interest you.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/10/firefly-energy-.html

http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/firefly_energy.html

Pericles

[DanishBagger]

Somehow I had accidently unsibscribed to my thread. Didn't know anyone responded. Thanks for the explanation and support, Charlie – and thanks for the links, Pericles, that might turn out interestingly :-)

[Pericles]

It would be fair to say that just at present, I could be said to have to much time on my hands. Hell's teeth, I retire on 26th November.:D :D :D :D :D

OTOH, my new career starts the same day, as, theoretically, I shall describe myself as a boat builder. Having been planning for this event for almost two years, my collections of accumulated facts and figures, products and suppliers and websites sites of interest have grown massively! :) I believe I have sorted out the direction I should follow. Realistically, a steam / electric boat is not the right way to get afloat. :(

http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=19726&page=2

However, here are some links which may interest some of you out there.

http://www.e-traction.com/batteries.htm

http://www.e-traction.com/Downloads/Valence_Saphion_White_Paper.pdf

http://www.battcon.com/PapersFinal2005/NguyenPaper2005.pdf

http://jcwinnie.biz/wordpress/?p=963

http://www.toyota.com/html/dyncon/2007/april/battery.html

http://www.mpoweruk.com/lithiumS.htm

Pericles

[DanishBagger]

Loads of reading there! Excellent, Perry!

19 days to go – aren't you nervous as hell?

[Pericles]

"19 days to go – aren't you nervous as hell?"

Inte jus nu.:D

Pericles

[DanishBagger]

Sounds like you're pretty confident :cool:

[Rick Willoughby]

Here is some detail on the A123 Li-ion battery technology:
http://forum.gorillamask.net/showthread.php?t=61715

Rick W.

[DanishBagger]

There's not really any information in that article. It reads like a press release (i.e. pseudocommercial). Just like it did back when we discussed their own website.

Although, it's quite interesting, they still do not say how they counter the explosion risk. And with flat (as in shape) , low, and two metre (almost 7 feet) long batteries, I certainly wouldn't want those in a boat. With all that banging and shaking a boat experience, I doubt it will be strong and safe enough in the long run. Just think of the individual solderings flexing. That's another introduced problem they created, seemingly in an effort to "be different", but nonetheless an introduced unnecessary potential problem.

There's no purpose in making them that shape in a car, since you still need more than one (i.e. several), so you might as well make them more square (taller and shorter), and thereby inherently stronger by design. This way they make them more prone to flexing, and thus mechanical failure. Yes, one could work around the extra problem, but there's no reason to have that problem to begin with.

No, I still wouldn't trust A123-batteries any more than I would back when we discussed them the last time.

[klevalt]

Hi there... In the past near-year, have you found resolution to your safety questions regarding the LiMan batteries? I am personally interested in changing out the follis-fuel engine of the boat I buy, with an electric motor, however the only thing that is holding me back from fully planning this undertaking is the battery issue. Safety, of course, first; but then there is the space issue, rechargeability (can I do it with solar and wind?) their life-span, etc. I am a novice, and you appear from your posts to be close to (if not, exceeding) expert level, so if you please, (and if you have the time) can you explain to me a few of the intricacies?

I truly appreciate your time.
Blessings,
Karole

[DanishBagger]

Hi there... In the past near-year, have you found resolution to your safety questions regarding the LiMan batteries? I am personally interested in changing out the follis-fuel engine of the boat I buy, with an electric motor, however the only thing that is holding me back from fully planning this undertaking is the battery issue. Safety, of course, first; but then there is the space issue, rechargeability (can I do it with solar and wind?) their life-span, etc. I am a novice, and you appear from your posts to be close to (if not, exceeding) expert level, so if you please, (and if you have the time) can you explain to me a few of the intricacies?

I truly appreciate your time.
Blessings,
Karole

Hi Karole,

Sorry for my late reply.

Thank you very much for the roses, but I am far from being at "expert level", and certainly not exceeding it. I'm just a geek, and an amateur at that.

No, I haven't found a real-world solution yet. The batteries from Torqeedo are still so expensive that in the real world, one would do better if one went with traction batteries and the inherent problems, wasted energy and so on with that type of batteries compared to Li-man (and even Li-ion, when it comes to getting charged).

Lithium-ion/manganese batteries charge much faster than, say, traction, they don't loose their charge anywhere near as fast as lead based ones, and the amperage is there to use until the battery is completely run dry. No "lumps" in the power or a voltage drop until the very end, and did I mention that much less energy is wasted when charging Li-ion/man batteries? This of course also result in much less heat being made in that process.

Oh, and the weight, the weight. Li-man/ion weigh much less per amp-hour than

Safety-wise, though, I'd still say that the Li-Manganese batteries are much, much safer than any - any - li-Ion.
The basic tech is safer, resulting in an end product inherently much safer, no matter what safety add-ons one put on the ion-versions.

Yes, you can charge basically any battery bank with solar and wind. The problem is, of course, how much you take out of the bank. The naval architects on this site (I'm not one of them) will be able to help you with calculations if you ask them, but I can safely say, that not all boats would benefit from an electrical engine. It really does depend on the hull form, not to mention what sort of use the engine will see: Will it be in and out of harbour only? Will it need to be used in inclement weather? Is it a sailboat? A motorboat? And so on.

With regards to solar power, how and where you can place the panels, and whether they can be adjusted, not to mention where you live plays a big part in choosing the size and wattage. The effective wattage is much smaller than what's on the panel, especially if not placed optimally (yes, I very much doubt that's a real word, but I'm not english, so my apologies).

Electrical engines seem to last a long time, but there are different kinds, different voltages and so on, but I'd venture my opinion and say that electrical engines need far less maintenance, not only because they are much simpler with much less mechanical parts, but also because of the technology itself, so they'll last longer than the average boat engine. Especially if the diesel is only used for getting in and out of harbour.

I don't know how big a boat you have or anything like that, but a hybrid design might do you well, depending on circumstances. There are various degrees of hybrids - huge ships and bigger boats sometimes do without the battery bank entirely, using a generator to power the electrical engine(s).

I think you should start a thread* of your own (to get the most attention) in this hybrid-forum, tell us about your boat with as much details as possible: Sailboat/motorboat, displacement, dimensions, how you use the boat, what your intentions are for usage with the electrical engine, and where you live (not the address, ha ha, but just so we know if you're living in a sunny place, a windy place, or in, say, Svalbard).
That's all I can think of off-hand.


*To start a thread (it's a bit backwards around here), you go to a forum, and then on the right, it says "Forum Tools". From then on, it's self-explanatory. :)