Making a virtue from a vice.

[Pericles]

Guillermo may recall a site about health that I use to guide my nutrition.

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/cancer_index.html

Specifically, there is evidence to support the view that corn oil and vegetable oils contain a majority of fatty acids that suppress the immune system, so enabling cancer cells to grow.

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/fats_and_cancer.html

On that basis, I strongly believe that the only safe places for those oils are in the tanks of diesel powered vehicles. :D

However, there is another option. I have found a site that offers steam powered DC generators. About a quarter of the way down the page is a SISSONS Generator Set. A high speed single cylinder enclosed steam engine coupled to 25 KW 110 Volt D.C. dynamo.

http://www.prestonservices.co.uk/generators.htm

At another site
http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/pdfs/Asmo_Marine_THOOSA_17000.pdf

is a 17 kW dc electric motor needing 96 volts to drive it.

Coupling those two units together and generating the steam by burning vegetable oil in a suitable Gunboat marine boiler http://www.steamesteem.com/ could we be looking at the revival of a technology from WWII. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckley_class_destroyer_escort

Not as large as a DE, but 50 feet overall like the Edwardian 50 from http://www.selway-fisher.com/Steamover30.htm

Who wants to be first to build this bonzer beaut? Don't all rush. :D

Pericles

[DanishBagger]

Man, that would be nice! I so much wish I could afford to build this sort of thing (or even having the skills).

Neat idea, although I doubt one would be able to sell it afterwards. I think I need to "befriend" someone very, very rich (to pay for all the boats and ideas to come to life).

[Pericles]

DanishBagger,

Thanks for your reply. It was an email from Birger Pedersen at http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/04.shtml#Q01_12 that set me looking for a steam powered dc generator. We had been discussing the use of the Thoosa 17000 http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/pdfs/Asmo_Marine_THOOSA_17000.pdf to power a soon to be released Jacques Mertens design, the FL 26, http://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php?t=13918&highlight=fl26

I put the question to Jacques about powering his new design on the River Thames with batteries and the Thoosa 6000 http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/pdfs/Asmo_Marine_THOOSA_6000.pdf

Jacques' view was that the Thoosa 13000 would be required.

http://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php?t=14669

Birger suggested a DC Genset, Fischer Panda AGT 14.000 (10,2kW continuously) 200kg as an option to power a 13 kW electric motor, however http://www.ossapowerlite.com/products/generators/generators.htm have a expensive 25 kW generator that would power both a Thoosa 17000 and take care of all house needs as well.

A Google search for a steam powered 25 kW generator took me to Preston Steam and you know the rest. :D All perfectly logical and yet, I am sure someone can point out the pitfalls, other than weight and cost.

As the Edwardian 50 is designed for steam propulsion, that should take care of the weight issue, bearing in mind that the Thoosa 17000 unit is only 40 kilos all up and the disconnection between steam engine and propeller will simplify weight distribution as well.

As for cost, I have yet to make enquiries, but what a craft????

Regards,

Pericles

[DanishBagger]

Who gives a … about pitfalls? That is a very, very nice idea, methinks!

I'd be worried about using a too big generator though (the 25kw) - because that would mean that if you used it without enough load, it would last shorter. Or so says the Dashew-bloke (me, I don't know shyte about engine).

If the steam-generator doesn't work out, couldn't you do what Birger told you, and then get a small generator for the house (demands). That way you would even have a limp-home gen-set.

I read somewhere that commercial set-ups usually have both a large and a smaller generator. Each would then kick it when needed, keeping the load at the best interval. So if you needed full-on, both would kick it. Less, and the small one would stop. And if only house-usage, then just the small one.

Again, I don't know jack, but I would make sure that I talked to some one who really knew about the "wiseness" in installing a generator double the size of what is needed.

[Pericles]

The difficulty with a diesel generator NOT working under load is due to the wear on the diesel engine, I believe. The steam engine is driving a dynamo, not an alternator, so the higher the revs, the faster you go (I hope). We shall see, as I copied this thread to Birger. The Thoosa 17000 requires 13 kW, but there are transmission losses and the electricity generated is proportional to the revs. Assuming good reliability from the dynamo etc. The owner only needs to collect used oil from restaurants or driftwood to voyage away.

Pericles

[DanishBagger]

Yes, yes, I take your word for it on the steaming-part. :-)

I was responding to using the over-sized Ossa Powerlite-generator solution you mentioned.

[Pericles]

Over size and very expensive, but perfect for a twin screw with two Thoosa 17000 units. This gets more and more interesting. Tad Roberts has designed a series of vessls he named Passagemaker Lite. A PL46 is under construction in South Africa and I don't think a decision has been made on propulsion. Two Thoosa 17000s and and one OSSA 25 kW generator with a Sky Sail for the down wind legs. I like it. :D

http://www.passagemakerlite.com/news/2007/passageaker-lite-46-under-construction

Pericles

[DanishBagger]

That is a nice one too.
I like your own idea better, though. If for nothing else, then for the sheer madness (or out-of-the-box thinking, if you will) of it!

[Pericles]

DanishBagger

I've been looking at the steam boat plans on http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/r/plansindex/steam.cfm, however the steam electric doesn't have to be a Victorian outline vessel. How about http://www.cmdboats.com/aurora48.htm or http://www.cmdboats.com/aurpix2.htm?cart_id=f0c21ae8804f9c5b0106885a54b75c19

Then there is http://www.devlinboat.com/dcsockeye42.htm

Used cooking oil fired boiler and 25 kW steam generator would keep the vessel beautifully warm and dry and, if desired, TWIN Thoosa 17000s for better handling, could be installed. in a very strong cold moulded hull.

Regards,

Pericles

[Tad]

Pericles,

Power of choice for the PL46plus building in SA will be twin 65HP Vetus 4.65's. Gearbox will be ZF 63IV vee drive units with 2.477 : 1 reduction, propeller diameter will be about 26" and coastal cruising speed will be close to 9 knots with no stabilizers and clean bottom.

Unfortunately "pitfalls" are what I deal with every day. You mention replacing two small 4cly. engines and vee-drives (approx. 1000lbs) with a boiler, a steam engine, a dynamo, two electric motors with reduction gears, and an unknown number of pipes, wires, control boxes, and perhaps batteries (which the conventional vessel will also have). Weight of all this is unknown, reliability unknown, expense unknown, and there are no backups for key components. The weight issue alone eliminates any further discussion. The reason the PL design works is due to the aft engine room, the reason the aft engine room works is the availability of modern lightweight diesel engines.

Many perfectly good ideas are ruined by people whining about the expense and weight, not to mention maintenance. :D

All the best, Tad

[Guillermo]

My God, Perry! You need to switch to extra virgin olive oil soon! May I send you a couple of dozens of bottles....? :)
http://www.healingdaily.com/detoxification-diet/olive-oil.htm

[Pericles]

C'est la guerre! :D

Guillermo, we use nothing else but extra virgin olive oil, except for beef dripping for frying English chips from raw potatoes. Oh, and goose fat for roast potatoes.

I have a HUGE Larousse Gastronomique, through which, I am steadily working. Too many recipes for one individual to eat in a lifetime. :D

Tad, thanks for your reply. I agree that there are too many components, to which there would have to be a keel mounted condenser, fresh water tanks and uplift pump water return pump from the condenser, all in the bowels of the vessel.

OTOH, when the next ice age starts and the oil wells freeze, I'd be able to steam to sunnier climes by burning seal blubber in the firebox,:eek: :eek:

If the Welsh Highland Railway can rebuild Beyer Garratt steam locomotives to haul their trains, maybe, just maybe, there is a slim chance for a steam electric boat. http://whr.bangor.ac.uk/87.htm

The full history is here. http://whr.bangor.ac.uk/

An unofficial account of the WHR, concentrating on track laying, is updated almost daily. http://www.doctorspinola.co.uk/indextemp.htm#News

Pericles

[Pericles]

Danish Bagger,

The Sissons 25 KW, 110 V D.C. steam driven generator set weighs approx 1.5 tonnes and is priced at £4,500.

Perhaps I shall enquire as to steam consumption and working pressure, which will give me an idea about the size of boiler. Israel Newton & Sons of Bradford, are boiler makers and http://www.prestonservices.co.uk/boilers.htm have a few marine boilers in stock. A boiler for a 50 hp engine seems about right and if designed only for oil firing the fire box does not require a grate nor an ashpan. A vertical cross tube boiler might also do the job.

30 years ago, for a short time, I became involved in the boiler design of propane gas fired model steam locomotives, A very simple horizontal design that used one flue with slanted water filled cross tubes that acted as thermic syphons. It could be scaled up with more flues and cross tubes and would work as a vertical boiler. Welded rather than riveted.

I must give this more thought. :D

Pericles

[charmc]

Perry,

Those launch plans are beautiful. Just one question on the subject of environmentally friendly propulsion. I wonder, since all energy producing and consuming devices operate at efficiencies well under 80-90%, what the system efficiency would be for a four stage system (boiler, steam engine, generator, motor). There is a tendency to disregard efficiency and economy when thinking of alternate fuels. OK when there are few alternate fuel engines operating, but at some point efficiency will become important.

But, as I said, the boat is gorgeous. Build it for fun.

[DanishBagger]

1,5 tonnes? Yikes, that's a damn big one! I can see why it might not fit in a slender 50 ft hull!

You write:

»30 years ago, for a short time, I became involved in the boiler design of propane gas fired model steam locomotives, A very simple horizontal design that used one flue with slanted water filled cross tubes that acted as thermic syphons. It could be scaled up with more flues and cross tubes and would work as a vertical boiler. Welded rather than riveted.«

By any chance, do you know were I could go (preferably on the www) to read more about these propane locomotive boilers? Are this sort of thing in use commercially?

[Pericles]

Charmc,

Steam locomotives had an thermal efficiency of around 8%, that, in effect means that 92% of the energy in the coal was not turned into mechanical work, but was released to the atmosphere. Andre Chapelon's rebuilds of existing French compound locomotives through the 30s were able to raise the figure to 12%. As a comparison, coal fired power stations get between 33% to 39% by the use of triple expansion turbines and condensers.

If the waste heat from power stations is sold and used for district heating then that reduces the cost of electricity generation for the utility company Major companies generate their own electricity, then use the steam for processes and the hot water for space heating, sometimes achieving thermal efficiencies of 90%. The http://www.5at.co.uk/ project is working towards 14% thermal efficiency!

Thermal efficiency in my design would be based upon the steam generating electricity and then using it to warm the boat. However, the used deep fryer oil would only cost me for its collection and filtration and some restaurants pay to have it taken away. :D

Danish Bagger,

Try http://www.asterhobby.com/ Have a look at the Berkshire

The only British commercially available butane fired boiler, that I know of, was used in the three and a half inch gauge Rocket manufactured by Hornby in the 80s. I have one. :D :D :D

http://www.toycollectors.fsnet.co.uk/rocket.htm

Now live steam locos from Hornby are electrically fired!

http://www.railway-models.co.uk/1243_1.html

The G1MRA http://www.gaugeone.org/ might be able to give you more information.


Pericles

[DanishBagger]

Thanks, Pericles :-)

LOL, at this one: http://www.toycollectors.fsnet.co.uk/rocket.htm

About the coal fired power stations, I seem to remember that our coal fired power stations efficiency are at about 65 percent. But that it is only so much because it makes both heat and electricity (and loads of technology). Unfortunately it was in an interview on the telly one of the power plant blokes were saying it. Anyways, it's still rather low.

How about doing what the aussies did, and build a huge array of mirrors, warming up a black bowl of water on a stick (well, that's how it works, anyway)?

[DanishBagger]

Btw, what's the point in a electrically fired steam plant? That has got to be inefficient, especially considering how much more energy it takes to make water boil compared to heating it.

[Pericles]

It's a very small locomotive that runs on an electrified railway track. Power consumption is not very great. During WWII the Swiss put pantographs on steam locos to raise steam, because they could not import coal. It was incredibly inefficient, but they had hydro-electricity. As for power station efficiency, I read somewhere that waste heat is used to raise tomatoes at some British sites.

I believe all Norwegian power is hydro-electric.

Pericles

[Pericles]

From Lars Josefsson site under fuel atomizing methods. Blue Flame Burner. http://www.steamesteem.com/

In the blue flame burner some of the hot gases from the flame are recirculated back to the inlet where they mix with and heat the combustion air. The fuel oil is, during normal firing, introduced into the hot recirculating gases and vaporizes. When the hot flue gases and gaseous fuel mix with the combustion air it burns with a blue flame without visible smoke. This is the closest to stoichiometric combustion one can get with a commercial burner today.

http://www.oilon.com/products/

Here is information about feed water treatment.

http://www.portatreatment.com/

Pericles

[Pericles]

DanishBagger,

Something to think about. From Asmo Marine.

The price for a THOOSA 17000, included Motor Controller is € 5.800,00., then you would need a Throttle, € 499,00 and a battery monitor € 382,00

All prices are excl.VAT and excl. freight cost.

On the picture I can see it’s an old single cylinder steam engine, with a flywheel and I would guess the efficiency for such one are maybe max. 70% at max. speed and loaded 50%; depending of how it’s measured. If we assume it’s 70%, the machine will then deliver about 17kW; enough for one THOOSA 17000 full loaded. But you have to take care about the DC output, because this generator, as I see it, don’t have any kind of electronic device for making the 110VDC stabilized, which is needed for our E-Motor controller system, but only a flywheel. That means when the generator are getting loaded, the rotation speed will get reduced (depending of the weight of flywheel) and DC voltage will be reduced. So if no stabilizing, the DC voltage will swish up and down depending of load factor. The motor controller will feel it, as the “battery” is weak or nearly discharged, so after a certain time it will probably close down because it will protect the equipment. . Ok, if we would like to stabilize the DC voltage easily, would it then be possible with a battery bank ?. Yes, it will help, but the problem is that if only the battery bank will be charged with maybe 110VDC (2,29V/cell) or even lower because of no electronic control system, the batteries will never get fully charged and you will experience the battery bank will loose capacity and life time. So you will need to invest in a grid connected 3-step charger also, to get the batteries topped up and in good conditions. A battery bank that should be able to manage the peak power loads for lets say 5~10 minutes, will be very big, heavy and costly. And another thing, if the batteries are fully discharged (75%), the steam generator will feel a that a big load is connected; the speed goes down, voltage goes down for a period of time.

All modern DC generators are equipped with electric controller systems.

Regards

Birger

The information above prompts me to think about a direct connection between the Thoosa 17000 and the dynamo, so that as the steam engine speeds up, more current is produced and the electric motor responds accordingly. No batteries needed. It seems simple enough, but I bet I'm missing something vital here. Do we have any electrical engineers in the house? :D

Pericles

[DanishBagger]

From what Birger says, it looks like you would need some sort of electronic DC-DC converter to stabilise it. Isn't that basically what he's saying?

I find this talk rather difficult –the subject, that is. It really is complex, and on top of that, it's in english.

However, it seems to me, that he's saying that the easy choice would be a modern electronicly controlled generator, _because_ it is electronically controlled.
From the information that 17kw would be enough to drive the Thoosa fully loaded, then it seems a 25kw modern generator certainly is too much. (think of the electric engine only going at half it's max). From that, I'd propably go for two much smaller generators: 2x10kw, for instance, controlled more or less automatically. That is, unless I could get some fun steam-machine going, of course!

[Pericles]

Yes, it's no fun with a modern diesel DC generator. It's the steam driven dynamo that I'd want to use. :D

If there were a voltmeter in the circuit between the dynamo and the Thoosa 17000, just keeping the dynamo output to 96 volts should be all the boat speed control necessary. Am I right?

Pericles

[DanishBagger]

Well, I guess you _could_ be right. That it sounds plausible. But I really don't know.

[Pericles]

Have learned that a rule of thumb about steam consumption is 25 lbs of steam per hp per hour, thus a 50 hp steam engine requires a boiler capable of raising 1250 lbs of steam per hour at around 175 to 200 lbs per square inch. Saturated steam rather than superheated steam is preferred in order to minimise lubrication difficulties, however a steam dryer to eliminate water carry over could be useful.

Pericles

[DanishBagger]

A steam dryer? Yikes, I obviously need to read up on this stuff …

[Pericles]

Otherwise known as a low temperature superheater as first fitted to Great Western Railway locomotives early in the 20th century. It was later found that for railway service, greater superheat temperatures resulted in more economic working. Whilst I have books detailing these improvements they are in storage in preparation to moving house. However, the King class information here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_6000_Class shows that only one superheater element of 194 square feet was fitted, whilst an LNER A3 Gresley Pacific had superheater elements totalling 525 square feet.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNER_Class_A3

Later, in their service lives, Kings were fitted with bigger superheaters. Steam locomotives and their performances are a specialist subject with as many opinions as there are enthusiasts. Here is a modern design , which may be built one day. http://www.5at.co.uk/

Pericles

[juiceclark]

Since this electric motor turns a belt, it could turn my big prop as a trolling motor allowing me to turn the big engine off. It takes a 17KW motor to run it and puts out about 50hp. Something tells me it won't use must less diesel than my big motor. TC

[Pericles]

http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/04.shtml#Q01_12 have smaller motors. The Thoosa 17000 consumes 13kW at full power. Do you have a genset on your boat juiceclark?

Pericles

[juiceclark]

I have a 7.5KW on the boat I use now. I use it so seldom it's more ballast than functional.
The boat I'm building now is very flat at the transom and should be very fuel efficient:
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/22690

But I'm trying to learn the most efficient way to move it at trolling speed (5 - 8 knots) other than running the main engine. I've considered two small sail drives, perhaps a small diesel running a hydraulic pump to move the main shaft, etc. The new electronic diesels are pretty efficient near idle...so I'm growing skeptical that these other "alternative" power sources will actually save me money.

Tony

[juiceclark]

by the way, I really like that electric motor because it would be easy with that belt drive to run the main shaft. We'll have to have a 15kw generator on the boat anyway (for a/c, freezers, etc)...so the only additional cost would be for that motor.

The only question is how much less fuel would the genny, running hard, use than the big Cat at only 800+- r.p.m.

[Pericles]

Tony,

Diesel gensets need to be fully loaded, otherwise the engine wears out faster. The price for a THOOSA 17000, included Motor Controller is € 5.800,00., then you would need a Throttle, € 499,00 and a battery monitor € 382,00. That's about $9,450-00, excluding freight and and US sales taxes.

Email Birger Pedersen birger.pedersen@asmomarine.com for his advice. Most of your questions will be answered on the FAQ section http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/04.shtml#Q01_12

Your big CAT gobbles fuel compared with a 15 kW genset. More information may be gleaned at http://www.ossapowerlite.com/

Good luck,

Pericles

[juiceclark]

Pericles,
I am grateful for your input and am sure you understand what a large decision this is for me.

An ol' commercial fisherman suggests using my generator engine (it appears we have a deal on a 30kw, 100hp Isuzu) to run a hydraulic motor on the main shaft. Electric is so clean...no leaks, no gaskets, etc. But I wonder how I can compare performance?? Hydraulic may have been great on a 90 foot, fully loaded shrimp boat, but how would the performance compare on a 25 ton, 50 footer??

By the way, I see that 30kw genny burns just over 1 gallon per hour. If we can get 7 knots from this alternative power, it will make fuel a nominal fee!

[Pericles]

Tony,

Get all the specification figures for the genny and email them to Birger. He will contact their US distributor for you and you can take it from there. The decision should be taken jointly by you and the distributor.

Good luck,

Pericles

[Pericles]

Danish Bagger,

Latest information from Preston Services.

"The 25 KW Sissons set would require approx 35 HP. As a single cylinder p.v. engine at a guess, the steam consumption would be around 875, say 1,000 lbs/hr with a margin. 180 psi is about right for a steam launch but obviously this will depend on boiler and engine design etc....."

So, a bit less than my initial estimate. "Have learned that a rule of thumb about steam consumption is 25 lbs of steam per hp per hour, thus a 50 hp steam engine requires a boiler capable of raising 1250 lbs of steam per hour at around 175 to 200 lbs per square inch. Saturated steam rather than superheated steam is preferred in order to minimise lubrication difficulties, however a steam dryer to eliminate water carry over could be useful."

Time to talk with steam launch boiler builders, m'thinks! http://www.steamboat.org.uk/smallads.htm

Pericles

[DanishBagger]

Oh, that's good news, Perry!

Do you think that might translate into a small weight savings?

[juiceclark]

That would be great but I'd need a watermaker to desalinize seawater right. Or do those use a closed system?

A client of mine just retired from the Merchant Marine and was on a steam powered ship that moved nat. gas. He loved that system. Their water boiled at only 180+ degrees because they created a bit of a vacuum. But as an engineer, he checked the closed-system water every single hour...was vital.

Tony