The Price of Ethanol

[Ike]

The latest news on the Ethanol wars: It's pretty obvious the oil companies are not passing on this price drop to us at the pump.


Ethanol’s Boom Stalling as Glut Depresses Price
NEVADA, Iowa, Sept. 24 — The ethanol boom of recent years — which spurred a frenzy of distillery construction, record corn prices, rising food prices and hopes of a new future for rural America — may be fading.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/30/business/30ethanol.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

[Frosty]

It would seem America is a world on its own. I would imagine that most non American readers would be confused as to what Ethenol is,-- as am I.

In all the countries I have lived there has been petrol stations selling A--petrol of various octane from 91 to 95 here in Thailand ,and of course B--deisel.

In England too Ethenol has never been a purchasable option, although 95--105 and up to 135 octane is available at airports.

What the hell is it?

[safewalrus]

Whos Ethel and why is the price she charges of importance? Unless you've coped a dose off her that is!

(but Frosty you could try making your own!)

[Ike]

Ethanol is simply Ethyl Alcohol. Everywhere else they just call it alcohol. We Amercans, since we don't have our own language, use buzz words to confuse everyone else. The Government requires the oil companies to put it in gasoline to make our engines burn cleaner and cause less air pollution. E10 is 10% alcohol. They even make E85 which is 85% alcohol. The oil companies have been telling us that alcohol makes the gas more expensive because alcohol costs more per gallon, which is a lie. Anyway, now the price of alcohol has dropped but the price of gas keeps going up. Somewhere there is a disconnect. Of course no one in the administration is going to do anything about it because our President and VP have huge amounts of money invested in oil and are making a killing.

[marshmat]

Frosty,
Ethanol, or ethyl alcohol, is (chemically) ethene with an OH group replacing one of the hydrogens. It is the same chemical that makes you drunk when you chug a bottle of rum. In this case, it is used in its pure form (booze is rarely more than about 40% ethanol) as an additive to, or replacement for, gasoline.
Ike,
I see a few conclusions from this, none of them indicative of anything good.
- America values motor fuel more than it values food.
- Oil companies are way too greedy.
- Free market forces, left to their own devices, result in wild and self-destructive oscillations.
I doubt this mess would exist had the United States government planned out the regulation and promotion of the alternative fuels industry with an eye to stability and long-term supply. But they didn't do that; instead the hype over ethanol was used to rationalize poorly planned farming subsidies with no real overall vision. Without anything to control the development of the industry and match supply with demand, the market is being sent into wild oscillations as mismatched supply and demand work against a glut of hastily set up, poorly organized producers.

[safewalrus]

Ike in the first place thank you for the enlightenment - I was aware of the stuff but didn't realise it was an 'additive', thought it was more a 'replacement'.

Incidentally I would hope your quote ".......invested in oil and are making a killing". Is litrative rather than actual but I fear not, looking at your present (and ours) policy in certain parts of the world!

[Ike]

Walrus, I normally stay as far out of politics as possible and I almost never comment online. I spent twenty years in Washington DC working for our government. Most of what I saw was good. But I got to observe first hand the inner working of politics and there is a lot that isn't good. There is a lot of deal making going on, and behind the scenes stuff, that isn't really hidden, it just never makes the papers unless there is some big scandal or other newsworthy event.

To answer you question, in the USA, elected officials are required by law to divest themselves of any "conflict of Interest". The Bush family holds a huge interest in the oil business. So technically (and in compliance with the letter of the law) Pres Bush has transferred his interests in the oil business to someone else. I don't know who, but probably another family member. That is common practice. Of course it comes with the proviso that when he leaves office, it will all come back to him. I have seen this happen with every president since Nixon. Kennedy was probably the only one who didn't have to worry about this because he was so independently wealthy he couldn't be bought. Anyway no one can tell me that the Bush family is not profiting off of the huge profits the oil industry has made in the last few years because they are part of that industry. And so is Cheney even though legally he too has divested himself of his interests in the business. They are simply being held by someone else for him.

Do you recall the hooorah last year about allowing a company from Dubai to be the contractor for managing US ports? Eventually it was all dropped. Pres Bush commented (not a quote) that he didn't see why it was such a big deal. Of course he didn't. One of the main offices of the Bush Family oil business is in Dubai.

Anyway that's all I'm going to say.

[Frosty]

So this Ethelene stuff gets you drunk. How much is it a gallon then?

[Mychael]

There was an aircraft flying the airshow circuit that was modified to run on pure ethanol. It's advantages (as I understand it) is it's much higher detonation rating (anti-knock) as opposed to petrol. One of it's disadvantages is that (like LPG) you will use more of it for the same amount of engine running hours as the amount of petrol you would use over the same period.
Of course so long as there is a single drop of petrol left to sell and make profit from no government will push ahead with alternative fuels.

Mychael

[eponodyne]

And of course there's the Gubbimint-induced attempt to sell hydrogen as a legitimate alternative.

This, of course, is because hydrogen as a fuel source requires infrastructure out of reach of the average consumer. Never mind that anybody who passed high school chemistry can titrate out fuel-grade fuel from vegetable oil; and REALLY never mind that hemp is probably the best choice for fuel-grade vegetable oils.

Mind you, ethanol and hydrogen--and gasoline too-- certainly have their uses. But as long as it's people who identify with Left politics who are espousing alternative fuels, it will forever be associated with smelly hippies living in yurts and hiding their money under the soap so their commune-mates can't find it. And therefore it's relegated to some sort of lunatic fringe, instead of being brought into the light and spun as being a very patriotic thing to believe in.

[Bergalia]

...Of course so long as there is a single drop of petrol left to sell and make profit from no government will push ahead with alternative fuels.Mychael

Come now Mychael...You should know that our glorious leader (one J.Howard) has the hots for adding ethanol to petrol at the pumps...and not just because it will suck up to the sugar-cane farmers in Queensland during this election year...or am I being silly...:(

[Mychael]

Sugar cane will be the only thing we have growing if they follow through with paying farmers to leave the land and sending all the water to the city.

Mychael

[Bergalia]

...paying farmers to leave the land and sending all the water to the city.Mychael

Honestly Mychael, you're being so obstructive...How else do you expect the city 'silvertails' to fill their swimming pools....

[charmc]

.... it will forever be associated with smelly hippies living in yurts and hiding their money under the soap so their commune-mates can't find it.

Sounds like the voice of experience?? :) :)

[Landlubber]

No Frosty, we are not going to bulk sell Bundy Rum to you for your "boat" use, been there done that.
Rum 'n' Coke is quite different to Rum 'n ' ethanol, even after a few drinks.

[charmc]

Truth from all sides (as so often happens in this forum ... could it be that the desire to mess about in boats is an indicator of a higher than average intelligence? :D ).

One of my favorite (not!) qualities of our politicians is their near universal venality and short-sightedness, which results in an instant desire to put their name on legislation which either gives away huge sums of money to industries which donate money to their favorite charity (themselves) or mandates the use of something which has caught the fancy of several well-organized voting blocs.

Ethanol and hydrogen have legitimate roles in the energy matrix, and will have probably larger roles as production methods and costs improve. The current idiotic spate of laws and regulations, however, has everything to do with lobbying and nothing to do with the most efficient methods of production and use.

Then again, if politicians were seeking solutions which are best for the entire country, they wouldn't be politicians. :mad: :mad:

[charmc]

Mychael, Bergalia,

Well, at least we septics don't have a monopoly on venal politicians (oops, sorry. That was redundant.).

[CDK]

When cars emerged at the beginning of the previous century, ethanol was the only fuel available. Soon a substitute was developed, not as good as ethanol, but much cheaper: gasoline. And now it seems that after a 100 years we're returning to the real thing.
Gasoline here in Europe costs between $7 and 9, depending on the country. I think that production costs for a gallon of tax free alcohol are 30% less, so the governments could promote it and even put some tax on it if they seriously want to promote a less polluting fuel.
But from words to action is too large a step for politicians.

[safewalrus]

Anybody heard of horses? nice friendly creatures that can pull a cart (fast enough for any normally person) their effulent is good for growing things - best manure you'll get (even better than wot comes out of politicians, just) and if all else fails you can eat the bloody thing! Can you do that with gasolene?

[Ike]

I once saw an article about NYC during the horse and carriage era and they gave a figure on what it cost to clean up the streets and dispose of the manure. It was astronomical even for the 21st century let alone the beginning of the 20th.

[safewalrus]

See ther you go Ike causing problems already, what's wrong with a little bit of poo (how many tonnes was that?)

[Mychael]

Anybody heard of horses? ?

Horses, yeah, I remember them. Dangerous at both ends and uncomfortable in the middle. Come to think of it like a lot of women I've known ..lol

Mychael

[safewalrus]

Some bad experiences there then Mychael? met some of my wives then? most of the time a horse is more use - at least you know it ain't going to attempt to think!

[Bergalia]

I once saw an article about NYC during the horse and carriage era and they gave a figure on what it cost to clean up the streets and dispose of the manure.

Let's inject a serious note here. Walrus is partially correct in his assertion of the value of horse manure as a fertiliser. I'm lucky - yes lucky in that I own a couple of horses, have contact with a local stables, and live next to a dairy farm. My choice and supply of 'manure' is virtually unlimited. (Someone is bound to say 'judging from his posts - that's obvious'...)
But take the above quote. Dare I suggest it was 'sponsored' by oil interests - backed by the chemical industries ?
Animal manure (carnivores excepted) causes virtually no damaging 'nitrate' run-off into the waterways - hence no 'bloom' to suffocate aquatic life - or poisonous slurry on riverbeds which eventually reaches the oceans. Instead it adds a natural moisture-retaining bulk to the soil - improving its fertility (unlike chemical fertilisers) producing crops free of heavy metal residues.
Manure is of course a readily 'renewable' product. Further, it is also a source which can easily be converted to a potential vehicle fuel - methane. (I have a colleague who runs his domestic vehicles and farm machinery on methane distilled from home-grown chicken ****. The 'waste' from this process is still a serviceable fertiliser. Of course he is constantly at loggerheads with the tax office which insists he pay excise on every litre produced - and in reply, insists they (the tax office) can get stuffed. The latest assault on his 'contribution' to the world's oil crisis is a pending law suit by one of the larger oil companies which claims he is using his vehicles with an 'unfair' advantage. As he makes no attempt to sell his bi-product it is difficult to see (unless with political interference) how this suit can succeed.
Back to the original quote. Surely, if the horse-drawn carraige/light-rail were reintroduced to towns and cities any worthy local authority would welcome the opportunity to make a profit from the resale of the spoil swept from its streets. (Horse/cow/chicken poo already fetches Au$2 per 4kilo sack).
It would also ease air pollution - and, to a certain extent the growing unemployment problem.
Personally I'd welcome the return of the horse-drawn vehicle.

[mydauphin]

Hey, horse powered boats - thats is an idea. But I need to build a bigger holding tank....

[safewalrus]

and live next to a dairy farm. My choice and supply of 'manure' is virtually unlimited. (Someone is bound to say 'judging from his posts - that's obvious'...)

We don't need to you've said it already, of course we could be nice to you and agree with you!..........so as I'm kinda a nice guy "I agree with you Bergalia, how right you are, as usual!":cool:

[Frosty]

I dont like horses, I rode one as a kid 2 or 3 times, it cost 7 shillings and sixpence per hour. The brakes did'nt work ant it steered terribly. You have to keep your heels down as you ride it, --I don't know why,--- John wayne doesnt do that ,--ive looked.

No clutch or gears and no handbrake,-- you have to tie it to something, and are very underpowered. The one I had was only 1 HP. As far as I know they never make them with more power.

[Landlubber]

Oh well that rules out the 100 footer for you mate, you would need 500 horses for that one, there would be no room for anyone else.

What did Noah do then for hp, he would have only had two of the little suckers.

Oh and Berg, don't admit on this site again that you have a love of horses, you may end up with a name like mine!

[Frosty]

As I understand it Noah had no propulsion or steering. I believe he was infact merely avoiding drowning and did not wish to travel anywhere in particular.

[safewalrus]

Apparantly his Navigator wasn't very good either! Ended up parked on a mountain FFS, must have gone to the same nav school as I did! But there again I never hit any mountains! Didn't do a lot of good to a few jetties, but hey they can be rebuilt!! (a lot of ports actually expect to be bounced a few times - how do expect them to be maintained, good stuff this insurance!)

[Ike]

Personally I like horses too, but I haven't ridden one since I was about 5 (good God was I ever really 5???) And yes they produce a great fertilizer but think for a minute. A large city, millions of people, 100 of thousands of horses. That's also a lot of horse sh.. Sure they can sell it for fertilizer. NY just piled it on what is now Rikers Island. Of course, now it has a prison on it.
Still, that's a lot of manure to dispose of.

So, horses may not be the ultimate solution in the city. I like what some cities have done. Ban cars in the downtown area, have free electric buses to move people in the city center.

Anyway I noticed that gas prices dropped a couple of cents over the last few days. Maybe all my bitching did some good. NOT!

[Frosty]

It is true. At the turn of the 20th century there was a lot of horses in New York and London , not to mention other big European cities.

Horse **** = methane= ozone depletion???

What about Dinasours a million years ago??

Bit more than the domestic refrigerator contents,--which on mine is 475 mg of r22. That is less than a fart to a Teranasorous. I would suggest possibly 1/2 a fart.

If a teranasorous farted 15 times a day thats 30 refrigerator contents.

A mere million teranasorous's farts would be the equivelent of 30,000,000 refrigerator contents per day. One single day the entire worlds refrigerators.

Further more a million is grostly under estimated and there would be other animals farting too. Phew!!!:confused:

[Pericles]

Bring back 'orses say I. There'll be jobs for street urchins again.

http://www.victorianweb.org/periodicals/punch/17.html

http://www.victorianlondon.org/publications/lifein-9.htm

Text removed.

Pericles

[Pericles]

Where I live in Middlesex was, in the 19th century, given over to farms growing hay and other feeds for London's horses. Trains carried the horse dung at night to be spread on the fields and returned with hay etc, during the day. It was a large and important service.

One other fact; there are more horses in the UK now than there were when they were used for transport. The dung is dropped elsewhere now. :D

Pericles

[Frosty]

[QUOTE=Pericles;
One other fact; there are more horses in the UK now than there were when they were used for transport. Pericles[/QUOTE]

Im not sure about that one. How can that be when at one time they were used for everything, delivering milk, beer,commercial transport, farms and domestic transport. Today a horse is generaly for rich kids, or racing which has always existed.

[Pericles]

Frosty,

According to http://www.bhic.co.uk/about/pressarchive/news.php?4 the numbers of horses in UK has exceeded 1.3 million (2006). The numbers used for TRANSPORT in Victorian Britain would be about half the total numbers shown on page 60 of THE AGRICULTURAL HISTORY REVIEW. http://www.bahs.org.uk/43n1a4.pdf

Breeding stock, farming, exports and warfare would account for the others, although at the bottom of page 56 there is the comment.

"While it seemed that the hunter-type horse
from Britain or Ireland was available in
reasonable numbers (provided French purchasers
stayed out of the market), witnesses
were virtually unanimous in the view that
the country would be hard-put to raise
2500 cavalry and 5000 artillery horses of
acceptable quality in the course of six
months, and even then many of these
would have to be acquired abroad, with
all the attendant risks, s~"

I know that intuitively it seems the other way round, but with the expansion of steam railways in Victorian England, hardly a village was more than 10 miles from a station.

BTW, I have nothing to do with horses.:D :D

Regards,

Pericles

[Bergalia]

...BTW, I have nothing to do with horses.:D :D
Pericles

And that answers Lubber's lament. Although having 'little to do with horses' - I am currently 'saddled' with a brace of teenage daughters....

Daughters in Australia 'must' have horses. Dad gets to shovel the ****... And so to repeat yet again Ned Kelly's final gasp..."Such is life..." :(

[Frosty]

What did I tell yer ---rich peoples kids!!!

[Bergalia]

What did I tell yer ---rich peoples kids!!!


Hush now Frosty - we've not told them they were adopted....:mad:

[mydauphin]

Kill all the horses ... They cause global warning... I hate horses after one threw me 15 feet in air (or at least it felt that way). Luckily, it threw me against fence... I rather have a boat, if it is sinking - I can always jump off

[Bergalia]

What's to stop you jumping off a sinking horse ?

[Ike]

so what has all this horse---- got to do with the price of ethanol?

[safewalrus]

Maybe you need a lot of ethanol to burn a pile of horse ****? There again burning it would do away with it's usefullness as manure!

[safewalrus]

Oh and Ike the best way to deal with the cities in my book in to bomb them (with ethanol as an added incendiary device?)

[Frosty]

Its rare to be up to your knees in Horse **** but very common these days to be up to your neck in Bull ****.

[Bergalia]

In which case Frosty - you should acquire a boat.....:)

[Pericles]

Bergalia,

You'll have to seat your daughters on these.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Stock_Saddle

I must now be excused as England v Australia in the Rugby World Cup kicks off in 10 minutes and I must mentally prepare for d e f e a t .

At least I still have Lewis Hamiliton's victory to look forward to. :D :D :D :D

Regards,

Pericles

[Pericles]

Good Grief, we won! 12-10 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :P


Pericles

[Ike]

Congratulations. Were they playing by Aussie Rules?

[safewalrus]

the way they played it wern't by any rools! France lost too so thats the two big Antipodes teams out of it! (not a happy bunny thats my bets cancelled I had it down for an Aus Kiwi final - the All Blacks played like some of Bergalias goats! Does this mean - horror of horrors an England - Scotland final! Oh if only!!! eh Bergalia (now your adopted team has been sorted I suppose you'll go back to the land of your birth!)

[Frosty]

RUGBY!!!!!! OH please---***** ALERT beep--beep-beep

[safewalrus]

Frosty there are some tings in life more important than you surprisingly enough! If you don't like it shut up! :eek:

It will pass and we can all get back to 'slagging' each other and talking about our main love (aside to her "sorry darling it ain't you") BOATS!

[Frosty]

Safewalrus --we were talking about horse **** not bull ****.

At least rabble on about crap in the drivel thread. Do you like chasing after a ball then? I used to have a dumb mutt that liked doing that.

If I threw a stick would you run after that?

[safewalrus]

Yes so I could bring it back to beat the hell out of you! What a lovely thought! bit like Christmas and Birthday and Dvali and Id and anything else you fancy all rolled in to one (not Ramadan - I need to eat!)

[Frosty]

[QUOTE=safewalrus; I need to eat!)[/QUOTE]

Ive seen your photo walrus and you definately do not need to eat.

Maybe you should run after a ball a bit instead of standing watching others with a hamburger stuck in your face.

[safewalrus]

Don't eat hamburgers Frosty - prefer fish, all walrus's prefer fish! you know nothing?

[brian eiland]

Ocotber 15 , 2007

NEWS From BoatUS
Boat Owners Association of The United States
880 S. Pickett St., Alexandria, VA 22304
BoatUS News Room at www.BoatUS.com

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Press Contact: Scott Croft, 703-461-2864, SCroft@BoatUS.com

What You Need To Know About E-10 Ethanol Fuel And Winter Boat Layup
Last year recreational boaters in most parts of the country were introduced to gasoline containing higher concentrations of ethanol, a corn-based additive that replaced a known carcinogen, MTBE. The new fuel, dubbed “E-10” for its 10% ethanol content, unfortunately has the ability to attract greater amounts of water and “phase separate,” or form two separate solutions in the gas tank, usually over a long period of time. Once this happens, the engine may not run and internal damage can occur.

With the lengthy winter lay up period again upon us, many boaters and anglers are asking how they can avoid winter fuel problems. BoatUS has these recommendations, some of which were gleaned from midwestern marina owners where E-10 has been in use for over a decade:

The best practical recommendation is to continue to top off a boat’s fuel tanks to about 95% full, leaving room for expansion. A tank that is almost full limits the flow of air into and out of the vent, which reduces the chance of condensation adding water to the fuel. Anglers who fish over the winter should also top off their boat’s gasoline tanks between outings to prevent condensation.

Note that some mechanics mistakenly advise that leaving a tank partially filled allows you to “freshen” the old fuel by topping off the tank in the spring. Leaving a tank partially filled with E-10 invites phase separation, which cannot be remedied by adding fresh gasoline. Once E-10 phase separates, the water will remain at the bottom of the tank. Midwest marina owners report that phase separation typically occurs when boats were stored with tanks only one-quarter to one-half full.

Draining fuel tanks of E-10 gas, while completely eliminating any chances of phase separation, is potentially dangerous and not recommended.
Once phase separation occurs in E-10 gasoline, additives and water separators can’t help. The only remedy is to have the gas and ethanol/water professionally removed from the tank.

Ethanol is known to chemically react with fiberglass fuel tanks, which can cause them to deteriorate and potentially fail. This is most common with tanks built before the mid-1980s. Unless your boat’s manufacturer can confirm that your tank was built to withstand ethanol, the only remedy is to not use E-10 gas (which may not be possible) or to replace the tank with a non-reactive material such as aluminum.

While ethanol does attract moisture, never try to plug up a fuel tank vent to prevent moist air from entering a tank. Without room to expand, the additional pressure could rupture fuel system components.
With any fuel that sits in a tank for a long time, it’s important to add a stabilizer. But understand that stabilizers do not prevent phase separation.

BoatUS – Boat Owners Association of The United States – is the nation’s leading advocate for recreational boaters providing its 650,000 members with a wide array of consumer services. For membership information visit http://www.BoatUS.com or call 800-395-2628.

[safewalrus]

Alternatively drain the tank? if you ain't got any thing in it it can't turn to mush can it? Just a thought from a non mechanical!

[brian eiland]

WHAT IS E-10 GASOLINE, AND WHAT ARE THE ISSUES

E10, Is a gasoline blended with up to 10 % ethanol alcohol and is now in widespread use in the U.S. Ethanol, ethyl alcohol, is made from corn, sugar and other grains. E-10's use in boats is State dependant. On the East Coast, MD and VA and points north use E-10 while NC uses pure gasoline. On the West Coast, Hawaii uses E-10 while the Midwest has been using E-10 for over a decade. The main issues with E-10 are:

1. The biggest concern is the level of Ethanol in your gas. Outboard motors and gas engines are now warranted by the engine manufacturers to use E-10. However, more than 10% can be dangerous to your engine. When you fill up ask what you are getting.

2. Ethanol attracts water. The water will drop out of the Fuel and settle at the bottom of the tank, taking the ethanol with it. If the water does not get to the height of the pickup you may not have problems. However when it gets rough, the water gets bounced around and gets sucked up into the engine, now you have a problem.

3. Ethanol is a excellent solvent, which means it will dissolve many particles and contaminants in your tank and even the tank itself if its fiberglass. These dissolved particles can find their way to your engine. The answer here is to use a 10 micron fuel filter and check with your engine manufacturer for recommendations. Older Fiberglass tanks can be a problem. If you suspect your old tanks you may be better off replacing them.

4, Due to its solvent nature Ethanol can eat away fuel system parts. However since the introduction of E-10, motor manufacturers have come to address these issues. The solvent issues have been addressed by making the fuel system alcohol proof. New engines are now E-10 ready.

5. In most states (not all) it's required by law that pumps pumping E-10 must be labeled.

Additional information on the subject can be found here:
http://myboatsgear.com/newsletter/2007620.asp (http://myboatsgear.com/newsletter/2007620.asp)

[safewalrus]

Not good to use then? so why is it popular?

[masalai]

******** "greenies" who had not thought through all the issues - - like now, foodstuffs are more expensive as the staples (corn, sugar etc. are being diverted to make fuel, from which the growers make better profits) cost more and the poor people have less to eat and become restive, which threatens the status-quo of the rich staying richer.....

[safewalrus]

usual world planning by experts of course, and we all know the definition of expert don't we?

'ex' is a 'has been'

'spurt' is 'a drip under pressure'