Super-yacht Classification Rules

[tallen]

What classifications are 180' superyachts that travel internationally requried to meet? Especially in regard to damage stability and emergency equipment. I assume the have to meet ABS, USCG, any others? And what rules of theirs pertain to 180' superyachts? Thanks for the help

[Ike]

Required? Don't assume. They may not have to conform to any classifiaction rules. It depends on where they are flagged. If it's the UK the MCA rules apply. If flagged in the US and they are strictly recreational just the USCG regs for rec boats but if they are chartered out they have to meet the USCG rules for a passenger carrying vessels. Which rules depends on size. By size I mean number of passengers and gross tonnage. There's under 100 gross tons and 100 or more gross tons. Most of the ones built in the US are built to ABS or Lloyds (voluntarily) simply because the USCG regs for rec boats really don't apply and ABYC standards are primarily for smaller yachts. Plus if they are built to ABS or Llyods and the owner sells the yacht, then it is easier to get it certified somewhere else.

If it's other countries in Europe they all have their own classsification systems, like Det Norske Veritas and RINA. Of course ISO standards apply in EU countries too.

[tallen]

I am planning the vessel to be US flagged. So I will endevour to make my design fit for a charter vessel of 180', 800 tons, 12 guests, 12 crew and I will have it meet a USCG and ABS rules.

The tricky part now is to figure out exactly what is required to meet those rules.

[tallen]

I am trying to figure out something... which exact USCG rules apply to my vessel if it is a non-charter recreational ship? (Still 180', 800 tons, 12 guest, 12 crew).

[charmc]

Required? Don't assume. They may not have to conform to any classifiaction rules. It depends on where they are flagged. ... Plus if they are built to ABS or Llyods and the owner sells the yacht, then it is easier to get it certified somewhere else.

Like most high value items, yachts must be able to be insured at competitive rates. To be insurable, a yacht must conform to internationally recognized standards for construction, stability, and safety. You describe a 180' vessel, which is crossing the line from boat to ship, especially since it is for commercial use as a charter vessel. That's passengers for hire, and, as Peter said, that use subjects the vessel to a higher set of regulations and standards. Search for American Bureau of Shipping (ABS) and Lloyds for starters. Websites will have instructions for getting a bound or CD copy of regulations and standards. Note that "regulations" are laws which must be followed or you're subject to fines. Navigation lights, for example, must be mounted permanently on vessels in different ways depending on the size and type of vessel. Operate the vessel without the right lights mounted and there is a violation, punishable by a fine. "Standards" are voluntary, which simply means they are not laws. Standards are enforced by witholding something, usually either certification or insurance. In theory, one can design and build a large yacht without conforming to any particular standard. Be hard to sell it, though, if the owner couldn't get it insured. Conformance to recognized standards can provide some degree of liability protection for a designer as well. Design to a standard and you have at least some basis for a defense in the event an accident results in a legal action. Without a statement of compliance to a recognized standard, it would be entirely up to you to prove that your design was sound and safe. Your liability insurance company could refuse to cover you on the grounds that designing without conformance to a recognized standard was professional negligence. One example is the capsize and sinking of the new AHTS Bourbon Dolphin earlier this year. If her designers and builders could not prove that she conformed to Lloyds and/or DNV standards, the fact that she capsized could be de facto proof of faulty design, with automatic penalties and a huge monetary judgement against the designer and builder.

This is a student project, right? You'll need to be very familiar with all regs and most standards before you can expect to get paid for a design.

[Ike]

Ok. If you build your 180 feet yacht, strictly recreational, without consideration to insurance, or any other standards; The USCG rules that apply are, (I am assume diesel power)
Hull Identification Number (33 CFR181)
Navigation Lights (Colregs)
Certification Label (33 CFR 181 for compliance with Nav Lights)
Marine Sanitation Devices.

Yep. That's it.

However, if you want to get it insured, now there is a whole new consideration. As Charlie said, you would have to build to one of the standards such as ABYC, ABS, Lloyds, MCA or so on. If you want to stay strictly USA build it to Subchapter T, for passenger vessels under 100 gross tons, or use the ABS standard (which will get you compliance with Subchapter T as well)

[Guillermo]

I'm surprised, Ike. Only that few rules would be mandatory for a 180' strictly recreational yacht in the USA? :confused:

[Landlubber]

Don't be surprised Guillermo, for recreational purposes they can make any crap they like. Have a look at a B**liner!

[Ike]

Despite what Guillermo says about Bayliner they are built to ABYC standards just as are most production recreational boats in the US. And they are the largest manufacturer of recreational boats in the world. That alone says something. Just for the sake of disclosure I do not have any stock or interestin Bayliner or Brunswick Corp and I am not on their payroll (LOL)

It has nothing to do with length or number of people a boat carries.
In the us the rules for rereational boats are
Hull Id numbers
Load Capacity and Flotation for monohull boats under 20 feet (excluding canoes, kayaks, sailboats, and inflatable boats, and of course multihulls)
Fuel systems for gasoline powered boats with permanently installed engines
Electrical systems for gasoline powered boats with permanently installed engines
Ventilation (engine compartment) for gasoline powered boats
Navigation lights
Marine Sanitation devices

So a recreational boat that is diesel powered does not have to meet fuel, electrical, venitlation, and if it's 20 feet or more doesn't have to meet capacity or flotation.

However, as I said before, then there is the insurance problem. Unless you build it to a known standard no one will insure it. Most recreational boat built in the US and Canada are built to ABYC standards which include standards for fuel systems, electrical systems, ventilation systems for diesel powered boats and for both AC and DC, plus a raft of other standards for just about everything that goes into a boat.

The one thing they don't have a standard for is scantlings. So that is why I suggested ABS because they cover scantlings as well.

[Guillermo]

Excuse me. What did I say about Bayliner...?

[lazeyjack]

it's my understanding that USA does not want to comply with ANYTHING
CE cert the works, , metrication, who cares their loss. after all who would buy an American SUPERYACHT, No such thing, justa lot of sticky grp;:))

[Ike]

The USA has a memorandum of understanding with the EU. Boats imported into the US have to meet US standards, and boats exported from the US to the EU have to meet CE. But, no, the US is not going to switch to ISO or CE standards for boats sold in the US.

Oddly enough the first Certified Body for inspecting boats so that they could get the CE mark was the US Natioanl Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA). They are still a Certified Body.

Actually on the Mega Yacht/Super Yacht fornt, American made large yachts are selling better in the EU than they are here. Imagine that! The boating industry as a whole in the US is in a sales decline except for the big boats. The rich get richer, as usual.

[DanishBagger]

The low dollar might be part of the explanation on why the large US yachts sell well over seas, methinks.

[Landlubber]

Guillermo, It was me that the comment was supposed to be addressed. I stand by what I said, they are crap! Just because they sell well, does not mean they are not crap. Chinese products sell well too! And most of them are crap!. It is all a matter of PRICE my friends, if it is cheap, someone will buy it. I would suspect that 80% of the buyers would not know shit from clay anyhow, so it is not their fault.
Mustang in Australia just went belly up too, wonder why? Could it be that they were also crap? Yep.

[lazeyjack]

The USA has a memorandum of understanding with the EU. Boats imported into the US have to meet US standards, and boats exported from the US to the EU have to meet CE. But, no, the US is not going to switch to ISO or CE standards for boats sold in the US.

Oddly enough the first Certified Body for inspecting boats so that they could get the CE mark was the US Natioanl Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA). They are still a Certified Body.

Actually on the Mega Yacht/Super Yacht fornt, American made large yachts are selling better in the EU than they are here. Imagine that! The boating industry as a whole in the US is in a sales decline except for the big boats. The rich get richer, as usual.

all good Eu NZ yards are full, maybe this explains somethings
personally I can not imagine buiding a superyacht to be any fun at all, Start with, the owners, in many cases do not appear in the yard, and you deal with an entity that is a shadow. owners are many times fractious, bad tempered , and should never be in a yacht .Oft they buy these things to keep up the image, whilst only impressing social climbers(snobs) I prefer to be totally involved head to head with the owner, nutting things out with a small team, sure I never got rich, but I made lifelong friends
i have only built under Lloyds, their rep got to hate coming to me, cos I told he was a fool for wanting me to tank test by filling the tanks with no less than fuel!! He had never even seen a manometer
thing I hate abt superyachts, esp power yachts is the waste of fuel I mean who has the right to burn as much fuel in an hour as some use in a lifetime?(4000Kw, say 280 g/h 1120 kg fuel hour, just rough guess cos they are high speed diesels 900---1500 rpm where Sulzer and B an W get thei slow ships eng down to 220 grammes kwh 120 revolution, , yeah yeah my estimates are not zackly right but close

[Ike]

The low dollar has a lot to do with it.

[Guillermo]

Just a couple of notes:
- Yachts over 24 m length are not covered by the EU's RCD. IMO, SOLAS, etc norms are the ones applicable.
- I have colleague and friend who designs superyachts. He says owners are deeply involved in the design/construction process and they use to be a pain in the ***.

[Ike]

I went to a seminar in Seattle about 10 years ago where a builder gave a presentation about a custom yacht built for a private party. The buyer was a sheer pain in the ass. The builder lost a lot of money on the contract. Now he has clauses in his contract that the buyer has to sign up front that covers changes and costs due to changes a limits the buyer involvement in the actual construction has begun.

[powerabout]

just a few years back there was no rules except colreg ( IMO)and whatever your flag state asked for but never checked coz ya made sure never to go to that country.
Keep under 12 guests on charter on you where home free.

Insurance companies ( do did?) look at mega yachts as money for old rope.

I left that industry in 95 and an owner could build anything and get anybody to drive and crew it and even charter it???
Things have improved somewhat now but I can say from 85 to 95 most mega yachts where NOT built to class as it added to the price and ones that were let it drop.
Just ask someone that worked on one of those Broward sh1t heaps, even Americans are scared to go out to sea on those and those guys led the world in the most feet of mega yacht launched in those years ...most ( if not all ?) not built to class.

[waterman]

A note to add to the general conversation. I don't know how familiar most of you are with the MCA LY2 (the updated MCA) however, the crux of the MCA is this: the MCA puts most of the regulation of standards on a class society and the flag state. The class society can be GL, ABS, Lloyds ect. And of course every flag state has its own requirements. The US has the USCG, the Caymen Islands has the Caymen Island registry ect. Occasionally the MCA tosses in requirements of its own. Other than that, the rest of the MCA is a rebadging of SOLAS requirements particularly when it comes to life saving and fire requirements. Sooooo, if you are interested in building a boat and having it meet MCA requirements, perhaps a good place to start would be obtaining a copy of the MCA LY2, consider the state where the vessel is to be flagged and then look for a set of rules that you easily understand.
A small note: While IACS signers must accept the results of other class societies, they only have to accept those results if the vessel is classed. Meaning the vessels plans must be reviewed, all comments resolved, and appropriately stamped. IACS signers do not have to accept the DESIGN of a boat to another rule set.
Also, generally what sends a super yacht to the MCA or a class society is this: The Commercial notation (meaning it can earn its keep by chartering) and its resale value on the secondary market. Even if you didn't plan on chartering your superyacht, MCA (and therefore a class society notation) greatly increases the secondary market value as the notation says that it was designed and built to some set of standards that have been agreed upon (by a large body of people with considerable history in the marine field) to produce a safe, seaworthy vessel vs. some builder and designers personal experiences that determine the safety of the vessel.
Regardless, it is a crazy stack of obtuse paper to read and understand and it is guaranteed to put any insomniac to sleep!:)

[powerabout]

Maybe the future is MCA, as a tax payer funded organisation, it will be more useful than the others LLoyds, DNV, ABS. RINA, etc who earn money by agreeing to certify what you tell them to although thats not what their mission statements say they are competing with each other for a builders / owners money. A fundamental conflict of interest.

[lazeyjack]

re owners being a pain
I always welcomed their input, building boats is a very personal thing, the relationship between builder and owner has to be close and personal if not you end up in litigation
On the other hand many nouveau riche are a pain, seemingly ill mannered with no breeding:))
i understand the yard Huisman, which is undoubtedly the top world yard, gives a price in hours, once the hours exceed that specified time, the owner is paying the extra. Sounds like a very good idea
I often built on chargeup, that is all costs were met by the owner, month by month, all that was set was the hourly rate
Works well but the owner has to completely trust the builder