Classic Catamaran [Archive] - Boat Design Forums

FirstLight

09-17-2007, 09:53 PM

Hello All,

After a few months searching for my ideal set of plans I thought I'd write the group and see if anybodies come across what I'm in search of...

My search begins with the desire for a catamaran between 44 and 48 feet LOA. Intended use is Caribbean cruising and south pacific cruising. Mercifully tradewind sailing.

The boat should be decent to weather (100 degree tacking angle) and be able to achieve 10 knots in 15 knots of breeze in flat water on a reach.

Hobby horsing is not acceptable.

Here's the kicker.. It needs to have more traditional lines. I've had a few drools over the Schionning, Hughes and Chris White Designs however the lines are not of a boat I would like to call home. The sailing performance from each of these designers was awesome but I've got to get warm inside when bringing the dink out to the boat.

The Wharram cats are absolutely lovely! The lines of the Pahu 52 sit nicely with me however my understanding is that the boat hobby horses quite a bit based on the amount of rocker and prismatic coeficient.

I'm hoping to find a design that marries both worlds together. We've all seen dozens of monohulldesigns that incorporate the stylying of Herreschoff with the underwater shapes of modern sailing boat.

Hoping something like that might existing in the land of multihulls..

Any ideas??

Thanks..

Rocco

northerncat

09-19-2007, 07:49 PM

build an easy catamaran (peter snell designs) or one from bob orams stables, both have the added bonus of being quick to build
sean

brian eiland

09-19-2007, 08:09 PM

While my sailing rigs are certainly not 'traditional', I think you will find my sheer lines and bow profiles to be more of a tradition look.
http://www.runningtideyachts.com/

And don't miss the photo albums in the archive section:
http://runningtideyachts.com/design-references/
...particularly the first example "Indigo" by a good friend Peter Wormwood

FirstLight

09-19-2007, 08:19 PM

Thanks Brian,

Those are some lovely lines.. I like the lines of the Peter Wormwood designs...

The sheer reminds me of the Rudy Choi classics...

I'm hoping to find something with more of a Polynesian look with a contemporary hydro profile (if possible)..

Although the Rudy Choi look is something I haven't seen in a while...

THanks...

T

brian eiland

09-19-2007, 08:33 PM

Those are some lovely lines.. I like the lines of the Peter Wormwood designs...

The sheer reminds me of the Rudy Choi classics...
Actually Peter Wormwood was a big fan of Peter Spronk's early work in the Caribbean

I'm hoping to find something with more of a Polynesian look with a contemporary hydro profile (if possible)..

Although the Rudy Choi look is something I haven't seen in a while...
I don't think you will find anything out there in modern materials or hull design. You will most likely will have to go for a custom design

FirstLight

09-19-2007, 08:41 PM

I believe I met Peter in the Caribbean a few years back. Can;t rememer where.. Maybe Bequia or Grenada...

Let me ask you this question..

I've considered a custom design based on wanting to build my boat. I've got a builder lined up and am hoping to play a bit with the interior on my own (too many years of Rhino to count)..

I guess you could say my requirements would be:

1. Design something off of my sketches re look and feel.
2. Design hulls
3. Provide Lay-Up schedule
4. Do not detail interior..
5. Specsailplan according to my sketches..

I have no experience working with designers so I wouldn't know where to begin or what is accepted..

Anyways.. If one where to fathom acost of a custom design for something in that area what would you guess??

T

Mercifully

brian eiland

09-20-2007, 10:18 AM

I believe I met Peter in the Caribbean a few years back. Can;t rememer where.. Maybe Bequia or Grenada...
Would that be Wormwood or Spronk. I believe Spronk returned to Europe quite a few years ago and has since passed away.

Let me ask you this question..

I've considered a custom design based on wanting to build my boat. I've got a builder lined up and am hoping to play a bit with the interior on my own (too many years of Rhino to count)..

I guess you could say my requirements would be:

1. Design something off of my sketches re look and feel.
2. Design hulls
3. Provide Lay-Up schedule
4. Do not detail interior..
5. Specsailplan according to my sketches..

I have no experience working with designers so I wouldn't know where to begin or what is accepted..

Anyways.. If one where to fathom acost of a custom design for something in that area what would you guess??
Sounds to me that with your numerous years of Rhino experience and knowing what you are looking for, you could virtually design this vessel yourself. Then you would like verification of layup schedules and specs for the rigging.

Depending on the build dwgs you might require ("based on wanting to build my boat"). I would guess you should be able to negoiate a design fee of 6-7% of the construction cost. The normal being around 10%. And think about it, even the 10% figure is not that bad considering the expertise you gain compared to the broker that commands the same sort of fee to simply sell a vessel....no contest.

I would strongly recommend you have the shell (hulls & deck) constructed by a profession boat construction business. Overall the cost of the shell of the vessel represents at most 25% of the cost of the finished vessel. But it also represents a formidable task in time and effort to the home builder. It's best to get this portion of the project done in a fast, efficient manner, and then get on with the other task of finishing out the vessel.

Reality check... How much are you thinking this finished vessel will cost you??

fhrussell

10-09-2007, 03:43 PM

Hey Rocco,
Where in VT are you? I have most of the classic CSK (Rudy Choy) drawings and am planning a trip up to VT to visit my father for a weekend. He's around Middlebury. If you are interested, I could show you some plans.
Best,
Frank

waikikin

10-11-2007, 07:27 AM

Firstlight, this is like a vague memory but I remember seeing a real nice cat on the cover of Woodenboat magazine like 15 years ago, built or designed maybe by Jim brown? or some one he worked with, nice sheer, classic styling & maybe constant camber hulls, painted in creamy colour , 43-4 foot long, might have been called Anna Kay? but its a long time!, but looked like it might suit you. Regards from Jeff:)

FirstLight

10-17-2007, 07:31 AM

Brian,

Thanks for the response.. Off doing a bit of sailing for a couple weeks.

You're thoughts address how I am approaching this project.

I should have mentioned that none of my Rhino time is using surfaces but mostly the design features for mechanical engineering.

In addition to rig design and lay-up schedule I'd need some help for getting the hydrodynamics correct...

I've thought about the build in both respects.. Building the entire boat and then procuring the hulls and beams and building the rest on my own.

I've calculated out about $104k in material for the build. $37k for shell, $32k for rig, sails and engine and another $35k for other remainder. THis is with a sparse interior and excludes all labor. I threw another $4k in for tools and $8k in for a temporary shed (basically a greenhouse with a gravel floor and a strongback tied set with 4" x 4" posts setin cement 3' deep).

I think about the hokiness of the shed and go right to having someone else build the shells.. Need to think about that.

I can't remeber which Peter it was.. It was about 12 years ago... Don't know. However, my wife reminded me we were at Basil's on Mystique.. Probably a guy named Pete that designed cars.. That was many rum's ago.

More thought required on this end... Thanks for you input..

I assume designerscharge by the hour?? What is their usual rate??

All the best,

Rocco

nero

10-18-2007, 01:50 AM

Brian has great words of wisdom about having the hulls built.

From my current adventure, I am learning alot. But, I have now spent three 5-month building seasons and the hulls are not done.

Challengs are/were finding enough lumber at a reasonable price. Glassing large surfaces without help. Moving and turning really big hull parts.

So the above work time includes designing and welding an overhead hoist, and a 40 foot trailer, setting up shop, and trucking in supplies. Not to mention all the fun of strip planking and glassing in 90 to 100 degree dust filled barn. smile

I could have easily worked 9 months to pay for someone else to have done the work. Oh well ...

FirstLight

10-18-2007, 06:33 AM

Hey Nero,
Thanksfor the input.. Funny how logically it seems to make so much sense to build the hulls else where but the little inner voice keeps wanting to to it.

Perhaps I'll build a 2"=1' model first to get it out of my system and then hopefully it will sink in that setting a greenhouse up in my field in the middle of the tundra is not such a great idea..

What are you building by the way??

Rocco

nero

10-18-2007, 02:26 PM

Model making makes the urge to build worse! I made a 1/10 scale model. (metric is much easier) It went fast.

Still I must post, I have no regrets about having done it myself. It is a good learning experience. ... life is only experiences.

Will post a few update photos of my project soon. There are a few renderings of an early version of the 14.5 meter cataran in my gallery.

tnflakbait

11-28-2007, 11:27 AM

Rocco,

You might want to check out some of the CSK designs that Frank has. If you like this classic Polynesian look, CSK cats are a good bet. With a few modifications these boats could be greatly improved from their original design. You would want a little less overhang in the bow, extending the waterline. You would possibly want the hulls redrawn symmetrically for more load, and interior volume.

I can attest that the performance of these boat is really great. It is the least outdated part of the designs. They point very well, because of dagger boards and asymmetrical hulls. Pretty much every CSK ever designed is capable of over 20 kts. I sail a 1964 33' csk and it will beat most of the new cruising cats in its size range. (It even does well against my friends Atlantic 42);)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cskcatamarans/

Good luck!

yipster

11-28-2007, 04:10 PM

You might want to check out some of the CSK designs that Frank has. If you like this classic Polynesian look, CSK cats are a good bet. With a few modifications these boats could be greatly improved from their original design
ai, my feelings also, have a look in my gallery for the ladybird filosofy :D

achipmunk

12-02-2007, 01:04 PM

no idea, think you 'd better check the links brian eiland provided.

yipster

12-02-2007, 01:27 PM

my reaction was over Rudy Choy Designs, hawain style asymetric boardless slender cats that could be improved
for upwind sailing and more. the ladybird drawing has no classic looks but does follow that school

FirstLight

05-08-2008, 06:52 PM

Back in December I wrote hoping to find aset of plans that would incoporate the "Wharram look" with a fewof the modern design ideas..

Interestingly enough, just today (5 months later) I stumbled onto a website that has such designs..

I know nothing about the designer and doubt if any of his boats have been built but it was nice to see such plans out there...

www.catamarandesigns.com

More to follow after I learn more..

R

clothears

01-13-2010, 08:36 PM

I realise a long time has passed since firstlight began pondering his possible choice of a more classic catamaran.But like a lot of these things life is what happens while we are making plans. So perhaps these plans may be just what you are looking for.They are certainly a hybrid of what you describe as well as having the benefit of modern thinking.http://www.constellationyachts.com/rustic-3/DSC01754.jpg.html

bertho

01-16-2010, 05:18 AM

hi guys, i was just thinking about the same desing. (# clothears link ) ..i like it ! also from nigel, but i will stick to heavy duty monohull....!!!
www.fusionshooner.blogspot.com
bertho

clothears

01-16-2010, 06:28 AM

Yes Bertho I agree with the heavy displacement mono,especially where very serious oceans are concerned.But I also have a nagging tendency towards the multi hulls.I have always found the great bulk of current designs (and many older ones) lack what I would call the tradition of the sea. I am besotted with the likes of the Murray Peterson coaster, Grand Banks schooner, William Fife. George Lawley etc etc. I have been told that it is nigh on impossible to achieve this look in a multihull. But I suspect it may be possible and that there would be an untapped market for such a design.If you look at the very first clip in this british car film from the sixties on you tube you will see a very good attempt at what I am suggesting may be possible.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L40MuewcWh8 It is far from perfect but rather a good step in the right direction I feel.I should be very grateful for others opinions.Certainly the stability issues are always front and center when designing a cat.
Cheers.

jmolan

01-16-2010, 02:17 PM

I am not a big fan of most modern day cats, looks wise, and the way you have to go up two stories to drive them.

That Irens boat is fantastic! Man that guy can design a boat. Where form meets funtcion in a thing of beauty.

I like John Marples boats. There is a samll amount of info here:

http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/gallery?KID=56

The 50' below appeals to me like the older CSK boats did.

By the way, the molds for the Poly Con are available for free. If they do not find a home they will be destroyed soon.

http://www2.yachtworld.com/boats/view_more_boat.cgi?url=&boat_id=1005598&align=left&units=Feet&access=Public&listing_id=1634&page=broker

38' catamaran molds to make boat in above pic. Poly Con, a round bottom, symmeterical hull design by C/S/K. Most hardware, some sails, fiberglass, core foam, etc. Make offer. So. CA (760) 945-9161.

clothears

01-16-2010, 10:37 PM

I have managed to find more information on what I would call a more classic look.I investigated the possibility of building a cat that would encompass a more golden era look some years ago. I was told it could not be done successfully and would look like a dogs breakfast.Why do I listen to the doomsayers?When I discovered Tsulamaran built circa 1965 by Prout any doubts I had quickly evaporated.This design could be fine tuned and still look the goods today. Just look at the bridgedeck clearance! The coachwork is precisely what is missing now.Okay there are a lot of things that need tinkering with but this would mean a multihull that could have intrinsic beauty.
http://www.britishpathe.com/thumbnail.php?img=55&media_urn=3997&stills=79&time_offset=5&record_id=2102 I should be most interested to ask the question.......would you consider buying such a vessel? Does she appeal to your artistic mind set?Am I too far to the right of mainstream thinking or am I perhaps right were we all wish we could be when it comes to multihull design?
More traditional.

jmolan

01-16-2010, 11:32 PM

Have you seen this boat. Designed by Nigel Irens. His website is a treat also.

http://www.constellationyachts.com/album-rustic.html

sabahcat

01-17-2010, 03:00 AM

I like John Marples boats. There is a samll amount of info here:

http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/gallery?KID=56

Got a bit of this look to it, first one is a marples

http://www.boatshop.com.ph/portfolio/nattasia.gif

http://www.boatshop.com.ph/portfolio/Vis15.jpg

http://www.boatshop.com.ph/portfolio/

I do like the eyebrow, large opening windows and shaded cockpit

clothears

01-17-2010, 05:30 AM

I am rather impressed with look of the Marples boat but again it is still not the sort of thing I am picturing in my minds eye.Certainly Tsulamaran comes closest to what I have in mind, but is not quite there.I was nevertheless very excited when I found her and feel she is an excellent startig point.After all Prout has a fabulous reputation for fine craft. I know that weight is always an issue with cats but I still feel the classic touches such as Varnished bridgedecks done in teak,skylights,perhaps horn ventilators and lattice work afterdecks to allow fast draining but still look nautical/classic in the tradition of the great schooners would make for a great looking vessel. For example I looked at long bowspirts as being possible.I had a discussion with a designer some years back and hobby horsing was among his prime concerns but he did in the end feel it was possible to overcome it even with a traditional reverse bow long bowsprit look.
I have a very basic drawing I did a long while back....I will see if I can find it and post for some critique.

clothears

01-17-2010, 05:53 AM

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=39594&stc=1&d=1263725524

jmolan

01-17-2010, 01:06 PM

You may have already seen this one.

http://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/custom_design/voyager_48/

Tad

01-17-2010, 02:01 PM

Interesting thread with a wild mix of ideas....the Marples and Irens designs are excellent examples......the Prout is (IMO) an example of horrible design.

clothears.....you seem to be mistaking varnished cabin sides for good design....it's not. I have the September 1965 issue of Yachting World which published the launching of Tsulamaran, also drawings and pictures of her in Cruising Catamarans by AYRS. Ugly high-sided reverse sheer, under rigged, ineffectual centerboards, undersized rudders, horrible accommodation chopped up into little rooms with tiny windows, the Prouts got almost nothing right. To be fair they had little to go on...but still. I do like the pilothouse with P&S doors, but then there is nowhere to spend time outside on the boat. And she was designed for Mediterranean cruising! They missed a huge opportunity with the aft cabin/aft deck, making it a skippers cabin. It should have been owner's quarters with sliding glass doors onto the private stern. I wonder what happened to her?

Her construction was almost bizarre....described as...."wood with fiberglass sheathing to 2ft above waterline. Five laminations have been used, the inner one being .25" vertical teak overlapping (?), then .25" diagonal teak, .5" cedar fore and aft, .25" vertical teak and finally a skin of .25" diagonal mahogany. Deck is solid teak laid over .5" plywood." Apparently they installed a great deal of 2" polystyrene insulation and AC, this probably lead to her early demise due to rot.

In 1969 MacLear & Harris of New York came out with a very similar boat, but better in every way. She was the 72' Quickstep II, beam is 30', an increase of 6' over Tsulamaran. Working sail area 2800 sq ft, and increase of 1100 sq ft over the earlier Prout design. Quickstep was build of wood, mostly hardwood, in Taiwan and shipped to Florida for finishing, drawings below.

39615

39616

clothears

01-17-2010, 03:34 PM

Thanks for the excellent input Tad.However I think you are mistaking design with style. I agree with you on almost every point you make regarding design.
But I am certainly not mistaking varnished cabin sides with good design.
If you reference my earlier comments you will note that I mentioned there was much that had advanced since those days.The same can be said for a william fife for example if one were being highly objective.I really do feel many designers ( particularly of catamarans) have become so engrossed in designing efficiency into their boats(which is so essential in cat design) that they have forgotten to put heart and soul into the appearance.You can have both. No, my point is all about making the multihull more beautiful and less like a whitegoods effort from k-mart or a propulsion unit from starwars.I have argued the abilities of catamarans to so many people and more often than not there is agreeance but resistance to their appearance.
So many of them have much the same look.I feel you are being harsh on Prout.It was afterall 1965 when she was launched and cat design was in its infancy.We must avoid judging previous eras by todays yardsticks. Judged in her own era she was a pretty good effort.By the way I am emailing a gentleman who worked on and sailed her and he seems to think she is still around.Despite her polystyrene.Whether or not this is true I should like to know.Do you agree that Fontaine Pajot seem to have embraced the flat high sided look with great sales success.I was very underwhelmed by the Mclear and Harris boat on some levels and highly impressed on others.On a pure design basis she is very impressive but yet again looks lika million other cats.As an interesting aside I will shorty have some super 8mm footage and stills of Tsulamarans construction and sailing abilities all transposed onto DVD.This will be most interesting.Dont let me give you the impression that I dont agree with almost all the points you make Tod.Its just that I feel that Tsulamaran or others like her(of which there are not many) can be revisited and with the benefits of modern design....computers etc.....I feel she may well be an opportunity to bring beauty into the equation.Of course beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and I agree there are angles where she is downright ugly.But I do see the makings of a Mona Lisa too.

brian eiland

01-17-2010, 05:26 PM

In 1969 MacLear & Harris of New York came out with a very similar boat, but better in every way. She was the 72' Quickstep II, beam is 30', an increase of 6' over Tsulamaran. Working sail area 2800 sq ft, and increase of 1100 sq ft over the earlier Prout design. Quickstep was build of wood, mostly hardwood, in Taiwan and shipped to Florida for finishing, drawings below.

39615

39616
I remember that one Tad...actually flew down to West Palm to see her when she came up for sale in an unfinished condition....long time ago. I've probable got some other photos of her somewhere in an old box.

Tad

01-19-2010, 02:22 PM

clothears....

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.....it forced me to do some reading before replying. There are two central questions to our discussion here.

1) What is "good" design....say vs "bad" or "not so great" design?

2) What is a beautiful boat?

For me great design must be unique (thus definable) and beautiful, (which we'll come to in a moment) it must also be functional and deliver the function promised, and the overall picture must be totally integrated such that one feature cannot be separated out as defining. This combination is actually quite rare. The designs of Dick Newick (for instance and IMO) are an example.

In my opinion Tsulamaran is not great design. Someone once said if you don't have performance (sailing ability or speed under power) in a multihull, you got nothing. I think the catamaran configuration makes a performance promise that sail area and appendages do not deliver in this case. Styling wise, Tsulamaran is (IMO) a giant version of Bill O'Brien's Oceanic series of the same period. Personally I find the Prout 45' Ocean Ranger a far superior design, achieving an an excellent rating in my "good design" scale. As another comparison, when viewed against the 46' CSK Imi Loa or the 43' World Cat, both (fast) cruising designs of 1964-65, the Prout design appears a houseboat at best.

As Bruce King used to say, "The difference between good and great design is sometimes fractions of an inch". Tsulamaran seems to miss significantly in the overall proportion department. When viewed in 3D the hulls and sheer are dominate features, all else fades into obscurity, in some designs this is good, in this case she appears ungainly.....perhaps part of it the lack of boottop. In my photo's the dark painted boottop disappeared completely under water....signaling another overweight boat.

Another great (IMO) design I would like to mention is Colin Mudie's Green Lady, an 80' trimaran (He refers to her as "double tunnel"). I have a feeling she is later than Tsula, but I don't have a ready reference. Colin's book Power Yachts has some excellent discussion on good design.

What is a Beautiful Boat?

Beauty is not much discussed in modern yacht design....mainly because it's something we recognize but can't easily define. In the post above style and design were mentioned as different things. This is true, style is important, but it's only one facet of design. Beauty in design is a moving target, with various features coming and going out of fashion over time. I think we recognize that Tsula is different than the cold ambition of the latest Gunboat...but how do we define this? For me part of it is the total lack of romance...it just isn't there. The Gunboat is totally predictable, destinations are pre-ordained, foreseen to the minute by the gps/nav computer interfaced with the auto pilot. The design is coldly aimed a minimum passage times, max speed, and everything remaining clean and perfect. No moss growing in corners, no varnish peeling, no baggy-wrinkle......hummm!

clothears

01-19-2010, 04:03 PM

Hi Tad,
well let me start off by saying that I found your reply to be one in which I find myself largely in agreeance.I am more than happy to admit that I find your input thought provoking and expansive. Precisely why I joined this forum. I looked at the verious boats you mentioned and can certainly see the design parameters you hold in high regard.Though I am at pains to point out that I never believed Tsula to be a great design.But what she is above all is DIFFERENT! Aesthetically speaking she is also not quite right but IMO goes some way towards a more gracious attempt at being a lady of the sea.Lets go back 45 years and look at the cars of the era. A VW beetle was neither a good design or a creature of desire. By todays standards it was a comical exercise in bad engineering and dog ugly appearnce.I could reference it to say the current Aston Martin.......... no contest.But I could also search among the cars from the 1960's and come up with a 1961 E-Type Jaguar.Like Tsula it had faults ( the wheel base was way too narrow) but viewed through the prism of the 1960's, it was and still is one of the most desirable objects of its era. Enzo Ferrari himself described it as being so.This leads me to challenge the one comment you made that I feel is incorrect."Beauty in design is a moving target, with various features coming and going out of fashion over time" You are IMO only partially correct. To justify my statement I need to ask why it is that millions and millions more dollars are spent on classic yachts.Why do so many new large yachts try and capture the many classical features of an era gone by.There are many here today and gone tommorrow factors of course. But there is also timeless elegance.
I understand that design in and of itself must move the parameters forward.
But wherever possible aesthetics should not suffer ( I know thats not always possible) as a result.I hope to hold to the main thrust of my origonal post. That is I wonder if it is physically possible to design and build a cat that is mind blowingly beautiful and of good design.Take a look at Marriettes bowsprit and tell me this is possible in a multihull and we are getting nearer to a creature of desire.
Cheers,
Paul.

jmolan

01-19-2010, 04:08 PM

I think highly of what you said about beauty in a boat. Sometimes they just grab you and you cannot attribute it to any one thing.
I do not know anything about this boat except it is from Eric Lerouge. So you know it is functional in a killer performance, living, sorta way....and beautiful in my eyes.

clothears

01-20-2010, 03:27 AM

Hi Jmolan,
I like your object of desire.It looks very fast!But without any intention of offending you it also looks like its laser guns are primed and the lift off boosters are about to send it to warp factor five Mr Zulu. But thats the point isn't it .....beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and thats all that is necessary. Tad I looked at Ima Loa and can only see an absolute horror aesthetically speaking.....sorry! Which again underlines that.....beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.What is rather Ironic is the fact that the CSK boats are very high on my desirability list. Of the moderns they are number one on my lust scale (picture enclosed).So we do concur on most levels....great minds think alike if you will. Although I concede yours is probably the greater mind when it comes to design.Incidentally Ima Loa is currently on the market having had the one owner from new.As an exercise in testing the beauty issue further I have enclosed a picture of Ima Loa.I am asking anyone and everyone to give their opinion as to whether or not they see any intrinsic attractiveness in her.My cynical eye gives me nothing.I know I rattle on about the beauty issue but I really do think there is an immense opportunity for a designer who can create a cat that has the style of a J-Class or a Shpountz schooner. It must surely be possible given some lateral thinking.
Cheers,
Paul C.

brian eiland

01-20-2010, 11:29 AM

...clothears.....you seem to be mistaking varnished cabin sides for good design....it's not. I have the September 1965 issue of Yachting World which published the launching of Tsulamaran, also drawings and pictures of her in Cruising Catamarans by AYRS. Ugly high-sided reverse sheer, under rigged, ineffectual centerboards, undersized rudders, horrible accommodation chopped up into little rooms with tiny windows, the Prouts got almost nothing right. To be fair they had little to go on...but still. I do like the pilothouse with P&S doors, but then there is nowhere to spend time outside on the boat. And she was designed for Mediterranean cruising! They missed a huge opportunity with the aft cabin/aft deck, making it a skippers cabin. It should have been owner's quarters with sliding glass doors onto the private stern. I wonder what happened to her?
I would have to agree with you here Tad.

I saw this boat once in the Bahamas I believe. She stood out because she was one of the larger multihulls in her day...but that's about it.

brian eiland

01-20-2010, 11:38 AM

In seeking a 'classic' appearance in a vessel, it never hurts to use some 'classic' colors...like dk blue and beige

And its interesting how the sheer line is maintained by the color separations rather than the underlying shape.

I dare say you might take one of those Marples cats (posting 25), give them a better paint job, add some brass or chrome cowl vents, etc and transform their appearance to a more classic look.

brian eiland

01-20-2010, 11:49 AM

....Here's the kicker.. It needs to have more traditional lines. I've had a few drools over the Schionning, Hughes and Chris White Designs however the lines are not of a boat I would like to call home. The sailing performance from each of these designers was awesome but I've got to get warm inside when bringing the dink out to the boat.

The Wharram cats are absolutely lovely! The lines of the Pahu 52 sit nicely with me however my understanding is that the boat hobby horses quite a bit based on the amount of rocker and prismatic coeficient.

I'm hoping to find a design that marries both worlds together. We've all seen dozens of monohulldesigns that incorporate the stylying of Herreschoff with the underwater shapes of modern sailing boat.

Hoping something like that might existing in the land of multihulls..

Rocco
Sorry Rocco,
I went back to your original posting and discovered we (starting with me :rolleyes:) hi-jacked your subject thread. At any rate I think that new Iren's design should be very much to your liking :cool:

brian eiland

01-20-2010, 12:02 PM

..I looked at long bowspirts as being possible..
I wouldn't call them long, but I included a bowsprit on a few of my drawings.

brian eiland

01-20-2010, 12:07 PM

And I'm not a fan of plum bows.

Here is a beautiful 'classic' by Loch Crowther, Investigator ll

Tad

01-20-2010, 02:53 PM

The subject is "Classic Catamaran" so I feel okay about some drift into other designs of the 1960'-70's.

I mentioned Green Lady in my last post, here she is with and without her ketch rig. This 80' by 33' Colin Mudie design features a conventional sheer and almost all accommodation on the main deck.

39768

39769

Next I submit a picture of Imi Loa sailing. This is included only because she was created in the same year (1964-65) as the 77' Prout design Tsulamaran. To my eye the CSK design is far more integrated and cohesive. The design pinnacle of this line by CSK is the 58' 1967 design Seasmoke.

39770

Tad

01-20-2010, 03:00 PM

And for something different I submit the designs of Peter Spronk. This is the 75' Ppalu, thought by many who know to be one of the most beautiful cats ever built.

39772

And finally I include a 60' Crowther cruising cat.

39773

clothears

01-20-2010, 04:00 PM

Tad, love the 75' Ppalu.It is far more deserving of the title beautiful As far as Ima loa goes ......horrible. Even applying a critical eye to the design I can see a pretty ordinary effort (IMO). You critiqued Tsula for being porly designed for tropical sailing.IMA loa is very poor in that department.Tiny portholes,tiny saloon (read humid),no protection from the sun topsides.The tapering safety rails are a nonsense and what exactly secures you from falling aft is beyond me.But heres the cruncher......my post was not about design it was about desire.I feel what we need here is not to pay homage to the 1960's or for that matter any year since. No,what I am suggesting is say 1900 to 1940 or thereabouts.More than a few current monohulls do precisely that why not catamarans?

clothears

01-20-2010, 04:03 PM

marshmat

01-20-2010, 04:32 PM

Can anyone tell me why it is not reasonable to look to the classic era when it comes to elegance in boating and apply that to catamarans?
I see absolutely no reason why "classic" proportions and styling could not be applied to a multihull with modern hulls and construction techniques.

The keys to achieving a classic look- balanced sheer, judicious balance of brightwork and paint, elegant and functional topside styling without excessive "jelly-bean-ness"- have very little to do with what goes on below bridgedeck level. I'm quite sure that a good designer with the right inspiration could come up with such a craft. (I've sketched out a few myself and I do like the idea.) Below about 16-17 metres (about 55') though, it's awfully hard to get standing headroom in the bridgedeck, sufficient under-wing clearance, and an elegant profile in the same boat.

sabahcat

01-20-2010, 05:48 PM

I have posted three pictures.One of them is from a catamaran....can anyone pick which picture is from the cat.Can anyone tell me why it is not reasonable to look to the classic era when it comes to elegance in boating and apply that to catamarans?

So for you, seeing as you are posting pictures of interiors, a classic look is a timber interior?

Whats so hard about that, costly, high maintenance, but not overly difficult if you open the cheque book.

Unfortunately the main images for this catamaran are unavailable, but you can use (ctrl and roll mouse wheel) to enlarge the thumbnails for a somewhat better image

http://images.google.com.au/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=songlines+catamaran+for+sale&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2&aq=f&oq=

clothears

01-21-2010, 12:41 AM

Matt,
do you perchance still have any of those drawings? I'm not looking to plagerise you,but I am very interested in any input that I can find to take the concept forward.You are IMO right on the money with the length factor.Even the monohulls are extraordinarily difficult to keep elegance and form in in shorter dimension.The biggest concern I have is hobby horsing which we all know is the bane of catamarans.This naturally enough is a negative when suggesting bowsprits of classic schooner proportions.Yet I feel that the gracious bowsprit is essential if elegance is to be part of the equation. I often doodle away on the computer alternating between wine glass transoms and even fantails.Each time I settle on one .....the other begins to impress once more....damn it.
I really must find some old ramblings I did some years back and post for some critical comment.I know I filed them so they would fall easily to hand.This will ensure a long a torturous search before the eureka moment arrives ha ha!
Cheers,
Paul C.

clothears

01-21-2010, 01:17 AM

Sabahcat,
I post three pictures and you assume that timber is my idea of a classic! I posted three pictures asking you to pick the catamaran interior......so which one do you think it is?What is the sum of a classic? Art deco is a classic example of a fine era. But it is far more than the sum of the materials used.No, it is far more about execution. A blending of of materials that are in harmony.I'm sorry if I sound a bit surreal but thats what its all about.Stainless steel,Glass,vinyl,marble,brass,timber,composites can all meld into an object of desire.....all it needs is skill and emotion.Class is often an indefinable and understated elegance.Riva is a perfect example of that.I'm sorry, but to say that if you want to throw enough money around its easy is IMHO nowhere near reality.It is perhaps the most difficult characteristic to achieve. Very very few designers ever reach that pinnacle.Murray peterson,William Fife,Herreschoff,Daniel Bombigher. These people are not revered for nought.Their boats served their intended purpose extremely well and were heart palpatatingly beautiful at the same time.The marinas are bursting at the seams with some very serious money that has about as much class as an oil recovery barge.Not forgetting there have in some instances been designers of some note involved.Incidentally whats wrong with timber.Maintenance is usually the first reason proffered up.But there simply thousands of people happy to put in the effort in return for the immense satisfaction that comes from owning a classic.There are many classics that have outlived a myriad of composite boats and will continue to do so.Largely because their owners are in love.I have to say too that there are some excellent products around nowadays that make this far less a chore than it once was.Lets not also forget maintenance is hardly something that dissipates completely no matter what boat you own.
Cheers,
Paul c.

sabahcat

01-21-2010, 02:19 AM

Sabahcat,
Incidentally whats wrong with timber.

Nothing at all, my boats made almost entirely from it, but for a cat you need light weight, so that has to be taken into consideration.

I have to say too that there are some excellent products around nowadays that make this far less a chore than it once was.

I agree, white urethane paints are one of my favourites, nice shiny clean bright practical almost hose out interiors with little maintenance.

Lets not also forget maintenance is hardly something that dissipates completely no matter what boat you own.
Cheers,
Paul c.

But for some it can be a lot less than others.
I have seen many of these vessels you describe above and know people who own some and they always seem to be sanding and varnishing and scrapping and painting something to keep them looking the way they do, and not much time sailing them.

But **** they look nice and they have the awards to prove it.

Me? I'd rather be out there using it than maintaining it continually and worrying that some guy in his dug out canoe that has little respect for my topsides might (will) damage the paint or that the customs guys in black kicker boots with his overly excited dog will do the same on my nicely varnished interior.

clothears

01-21-2010, 02:47 AM

Sabahcat,
Okay I see your point but I do wish to offer a couple of counterpoints.
1) a classic catamaran built using a combination of quality veneers will not stretch the weight issue to breaking point.
2) Polyurethane comes in clear.
3)Timber alone does not a classic boat make.Talent does.
4) A classic catamaran built today using advanced techniques can still look the classic goods and have very few quantifiable maintenance issues that somehow relate to the poor souls you refer to sanding into the night.
5) Osmosis,delamination,gelcoating seems like maintenance to me. No boat is an island.

I really want or hope to get input that takes the classic goal forward......not why it is not worth persuing.This would bring an entirely new market. A market that captures the hearts and wallets of those who cannot quite appreciate the whitegoods approach to catamarans......you know......the ones you can hose out and go sailing. For me I like,no,love to behold something that transcends practicality of form and function.If that takes effort then so be it.I am pretty certain I am not alone. Some very interesting boats have been put forward thus far....from Matt and Brian for example and Tad also.I've even been cutting and transposing the topsides of twenties classics onto Tads offering.Whilst not quite on the money there is a hint of something that causes me to think I am on the right course.Or perhaps I am completely off beam.
Cheers,
Paul C.

sabahcat

01-21-2010, 03:34 AM

1) a classic catamaran built using a combination of quality veneers will not stretch the weight issue to breaking point.
But they are still weight (compared to paint) and weight is the enemy to be avoided where possible.
Fancy timber laminates are also very expensive and labour intensive to get right, and look like total shite if gotten wrong.
Paint on the other hand can be fudged to a certain extent.
2) Polyurethane comes in clear.
correct, but you will be wanting a fancy laminate over a cored panel with near perfect joinery underneath that clear.
To use a solid timber will be overly heavy and costly, to use a light timber will ding to easily.

3)Timber alone does not a classic boat make.Talent does.
Correct and at a premium price

4) A classic catamaran built today using advanced techniques can still look the classic goods and have very few quantifiable maintenance issues that somehow relate to the poor souls you refer to sanding into the night.
You will need to demonstrate this to me.
Any vessel I have had anything to do with (I used to work for a company building 100ft plus megayachts) that had skillfully done timber work needed more work in the first place , needed more care to keep in that condition, and once it got out of condition needed more money spent compared to it painted counterpart.
Cant just fill those dings, scrapes and scratches in the skillfully done timberwork with a bit of epoxy and give a quick sand and touchup hiding all under solid colour now can we.

5) Osmosis,delamination,gelcoating seems like maintenance to me. No boat is an island.

I build from epoxy and paint in urethane, osmosis and gelcoat are not part of my language.

As for delamination, if it does happen it will be unnoticeable once repaired, bogged and painted.

Same cant be said for repair work done on clear finished vessels, the difference in material batches is very very noticeable.

I really want or hope to get input that takes the classic goal forward......not why it is not worth persuing.This would bring an entirely new market. A market that captures the hearts and wallets of those who cannot quite appreciate the whitegoods approach to catamarans.
.

Well it will certainly capture the wallets, just like ths (as an example)

Expensive boat trying to play the part ($1.3 million)

http://www.pbmy.com.au/images/50classic_intro.jpg
http://www.pbmy.com.au/range50_classic.html

The part being played and played well ($235,000)

http://209.51.145.59/ad_img/3/2/9/8/8/0_2.jpg
http://www.boatsonline.com.au/boats/ed.html?de=32988

For me I like,no,love to behold something that transcends practicality of form and function

Practicality, form, function?
Using the above vessel as an example wouldn't something like the second one be better
More practical, more form, more function than the first vessel and a MILLION DOLLARS more affordable.

If that takes effort then so be it.I am pretty certain I am not alone. Some very interesting boats have been put forward thus far....from Matt and Brian for example and Tad also.I've even been cutting and transposing the topsides of twenties classics onto Tads offering.Whilst not quite on the money there is a hint of something that causes me to think I am on the right course.Or perhaps I am completely off beam.
Cheers,
Paul C.

And fair enough, each to his own,
At some stage you will surely need to consider resale, it would be worthwhile looking at that long and hard as there has been many a modern classic (expensive) thing, built with passion and an open chequebook, sold at a huge discount at a latter date.

Not trying to talk you out of having a go, and will still follow the thread with interest.

clothears

01-21-2010, 04:17 AM

clothears

01-21-2010, 04:57 AM

Okay folks here we have the closest thing I can find to what I would call a modern classic cat. She is a Sassier design and to be fair I think she is very long ....130 feet maybe more.But it is not difficult to add in a more tapered bowsprit arrangement.remove the solid glass on the bridge and replace it with individual glass. A few horn ventilators and a couple of skylights that are half seating half skylight and we begin to see the ghosts of great beauty and design become as one.It would not be difficult to imagine a workable length of say seventy feet.....my target length for my own design.
Cheers,
Paul C.

sabahcat

01-21-2010, 07:05 AM

Sabahcat,
I really don't want to drift off my intended line but I will indulge myself a little more. Your comparison photos for me anyway hold no logic.I hope that doesn't offend you.
A 1.3 million dollar boat versus a $235,000 dollar boat means exactly what ? I am assuming you are pointing out that big money does not necessarily surpass the cheaper alternative by a substantial degree.But you suggested that money would make it a breeze to create a classic.

More like I was suggesting that (using my top example and others I can point you to), it appears these days that to create a classic style, retro look vessel, from modern composite and then make appear to be old school by fitting quality timber laminates, costs a lot of money.

More than it should imho.

I was suggesting that in that vessels instance you could buy the $1.3 mill knockoff or the real deal for a lot less.

I post for your consideration a $635,000 boat and ask you this question. Does the boat I have posted look beautiful,timeless and a good investment. I really would like your opinion on that.I for one would buy her in a heart beat.Almost $700,000 dollars cheaper than your upper end suggestion.A lot dearer than your lower end suggestion but I will stake my all that you get a lot more boat( seventy eight feet to be exact) and a mountain more satisfaction.

An investment? no probably not, dont know too many pleasure boats that have a yield and sell for more than their cost.

But yes, it is more boat thats for sure and yes it is nicer and to me better value than the former $1.3m vessel.
It would cost substantualy more to maintain and fuel than my timber example, but $700k @ 6% buys $800/week of it.

I for one would buy her in a heart beat

Which makes me wonder why you dont, seriously, it will be cheaper and easier than building a 70ft cat and you will be out there now enjoying her..

I feel in a position to comment as I am well into the build of the 50ft cat in my avatar,Its a long tough slog and the vessel I posted above (and below) is one that I would now buy in a heartbeat as I could buy this now, unfortunately I was flat out affording the first lot of materials when I started the build.
http://209.51.145.59/ad_img/3/2/9/8/8/0_3.jpg

Looking through the same site I find this one, which is exactly what I wanted, but, the mono and 450k in the skyrocket for me would be more sensible.

http://anchorline.com.au/boats/images/659.jpg
http://anchorline.com.au/showboat.cfm?reference=659

Anyway, sorry for the rambling, clearly I am at a stage where my current build is giving me the shits and lately there has been some outstanding vessels come on the market for seemingly a lot less than they were 4 years ago and I cant help thinking that if I had my time again I would be second thinking the build.

Tad

01-21-2010, 12:38 PM

I'm not sure.....I have a feeling we're straying into the land of caricature?

I'm quite comfortable designing clipper bowed monohulls, I'm working on a small schooner with one right now. Below is one of the clipper types I did in the past....

39807

39808

This (to me) is believable design....we can make believe we're in a 1800's pirate clipper and maintain a fairly straight face.....:rolleyes:

But to add two clipper bows to a pirate catamaran? It smacks slightly of a Pirates of Penzance comedy. Clipper bowed catamarans never existed, I'm far more comfortable with the traditional Polynesian bows that CSK added to some of their boats.

The line between good design and caricature is blurry....it's hard to locate until you drop over the edge. One thing I'm generally against is ornamentation for it's own sake.....the Riva (presumably Aquarama) was mentioned above as an example of good design. It is...but there is nothing on that boat that doesn't have a function as well as look fabulous. The design is a cohesive whole.

Below is my quick try...which makes me uneasy....just a bit affected

39809

clothears

01-21-2010, 02:48 PM

More like I was suggesting that (using my top example and others I can point you to), it appears these days that to create a classic style, retro look vessel, from modern composite and then make appear to be old school by fitting quality timber laminates, costs a lot of money.

More than it should imho.

I was suggesting that in that vessels instance you could buy the $1.3 mill knockoff or the real deal for a lot less.
The so called knockoff is a beautiful vessel and there are those who "can"afford it.It just may be that the particular vessel is "THE ONE" for them.Money may very well not be the issue.Your choice of vessel is for you the "ONE" because it is great value but if you were more financial I am quite sure you would raise your expectations as we all do.I have to say too that I suspect neither of us would see any value in the 1.3 mill vessel.

An investment? no probably not, dont know too many pleasure boats that have a yield and sell for more than their cost.But yes, it is more boat thats for sure and yes it is nicer and to me better value than the former $1.3m vessel.

I was more meaning an investment that returns dividends to the soul.But it would also be an easy vessel to find an owner who has a heartbeat moment.

It would cost substantualy more to maintain and fuel than my timber example, but $700k @ 6% buys $800/week of it.

You pays your money and you gets what you gets.

Which makes me wonder why you dont, seriously, it will be cheaper and easier than building a 70ft cat and you will be out there now enjoying her..

I'm five years off retirement 55 to be exact. I live near the warm waters of south east queensland.....lots of shallow water,reefs etc and lots of little bays where the deeper draft vessels struggle to go. I lived for some years on a mono and though the length was quite good the space was not what it could be. I am retiring in a somewhat comfortable position as suburbia encroaches on my farm and suddenly the land is worth far more than my decades of hard slog could have ever produced.So I hold true to my dream to create a cat that is classical yet somehow modern.Did you like my last post suggestion of a modern that approaches my concept somewhat.

I feel in a position to comment as I am well into the build of the 50ft cat in my avatar,Its a long tough slog and the vessel I posted above (and below) is one that I would now buy in a heartbeat as I could buy this now, unfortunately I was flat out affording the first lot of materials when I started the build.
http://209.51.145.59/ad_img/3/2/9/8/8/0_3.jpg

I feel for you on that one.I have done the same thing with classic cars.My Jaguar looked great after a small fortune had been spent.That was until I saw a near identical car in original condition (hence more collectable) at a lesser price.Now where are those razor blades!

Looking through the same site I find this one, which is exactly what I wanted, but, the mono and 450k in the skyrocket for me would be more sensible.

http://anchorline.com.au/boats/images/659.jpg
http://anchorline.com.au/showboat.cfm?reference=659

Anyway, sorry for the rambling, clearly I am at a stage where my current build is giving me the shits and lately there has been some outstanding vessels come on the market for seemingly a lot less than they were 4 years ago and I cant help thinking that if I had my time again I would be second thinking the build.

Please don't be sorry! I have found much of your input most thought provoking.The one thing that keeps me on track is the fact that I know the road ahead well.I have always believed that life is not a destination its a journey.Enjoy your cat and all the challenges it brings you. Turn a challenge into something of no consequense and your a winner.
Cheers,
Paul C.